I did before I haue very much lost my fantasie You doe well remember that I sayd that after that I had spoken to the holy father who hath so well disciffered that matter that paradueÌ„ture I should haue gained my voiage without going vnto him I feare very much that before that I depart from you you will cut off all the way and make it shorter For I hope through the helpe of God that we will visite this day all those chambers infernall habitations without mouing our selues from hence and before that we depart if that the one and the other of you doe that whereof you brag and baunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge but to the pure word of god And as for mée if you take it for the Iudge I am wel content to take it for my guide And I am certeine that it will guide mée better then Cyble guided Aeneas Theophilus If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured Dauid who speaketh by experieÌ„ce can certify thée saying Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God thy immortall father whome by the same thou shalt heare speaks for to put thée out of all doubt Hillarius Ther is also an other point that when we shal haue ended the voiage we shal not go by the gates of dreams as Aeneas or as our holy father whom we haue heard dreame so wel as all such as hée is doe which repose rest themselues in any other bed then vppon the pure word of god For it hath such vortue that whosoeuer resseth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor rane or if hée dreame hée goeth not by the gates of Iuory but by the horne gate which is cléere through the which one may sée as with the eyes in such sort that such dreames are more certeine then that which others doe sée with their eyes as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed shall neuer cease to dreame and wander astray out of the waye And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory which is thicke as the bones are Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all For after the they haue well banketed moisted theÌ„selues w that good Theological wine they haue the spirite of wine the which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them maketh them to enter by the gate of Iuory that is to saye betwéene the téeth and chawes which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine that they do dreame more déeper then the lowest parte of hell and the seate of Lucifer Afterwards they refurne béeing rauished in their Poetical furor madnesse as if they were departed all newly and freshe But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes as the Organ bellowes so doe they go foorth by the very same gate Thomas Let vs then go in by the other gate and in such fobrietie that we may know the things as though we saw theÌ„ w our eyes But who shal begin to declare shew it vnto vs mée thinketh the Eusebius maketh himself ready Begin then to knocke cause it to be opened vnto vs Eusebius I will enter first by the olde testament Hillarius But take good héede you lead vs not awrye and totake the one for the other For if thou doe erre and go astray we will direct and leave thée into it againe Eusebius But I will direct and leade you well Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens who sent to Hierusalem two thousande Dragmas of stluer for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sinnes of those which were dead In which place he did well and right For he had some consideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time For if hee had not thought that those which were slaine did yet liue it had bene super fluous and vaine to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead But for so much as he saw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God are in good rest ioy he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling to doe the same for those which were slaine that the offence might be forgiuen Is it possible to finde a terte more cléerer Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus send such a summe of Siluer the number of two thousand Dragmas which are worth a thousand and two hundreth Crownes if wee accompt them after our money if he had not bene certeine that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead Theophilus Thou doest here open vnto vs a goodlye field to dispute off and wil engâ—der to vs many questions the which I will propound vnto thée and we will declare them at large one after an other and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can serue you for to proue Purgatory I doe then first demaunde of thée in what reputation thou hast that bookes of the Macchabees and whether thou do holde them for canonicall or Apocripha Eusebius I hold it but for such as it is that is to say holy Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church For is it not conteined in the Bible Theopilus I do not benie but that it is fastened sowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical of such Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews which alwayes haue bene receiued allowed of all the catholicke Churche without any contradiction Eusebius I am not now abashed though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors sith that you are so shamelesse that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture I doe know by experience that you must haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleasure For you are like vnto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy scriptures but the places whiche they thinke moste méete and proper for to giue colour to their herefies and do reiect all the other as vnworthy of the spirite of god Is not that to great arrogancie to make the spirite of God his word to be subiect vnto your iudgement Thou mayst wel perceiue Thomas that now they doe féele themselues muche gréeued when they are constrayned to refuse
the Iudge vnto whom they haue appealled and which in stéede to be iudged of him they would iudge him Theophilus Stay a while Eusebius Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute Thinke not that wée are become Papistes sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God as he doth wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist to whom alone it apperteineth We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures But if we discerne put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical those that are Apocripha thou oughtest not to accuse vs therefore except thou doe by that same reason render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church chiefely Sainct Hierome and in like manner your decrées and Canons whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apocrapha amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees Eusebius I confesse that amonge the Iewes it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church Wherefore I conclude that those that beny that they are not canonicall are not the sonnes of the Church but bastardes of the Sinagogue Hillarius Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of â—ccius Behold one shot of his Canons Theophilus If it be so Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals in that prolegne in whiche be hath recited them all in order doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here then the other And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas and principally of the second out of y which the place by thée alleged is taken For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew But not the seconde the which hath bene onely written in Greeke The whiche thing as he saith may proue it selfe by the pâ—rase and manner of the speaking the which hée vsed To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye of the Machabees vnderstanding that by him it was written Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome that history hath bene written by Ioseph bâ—ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority theÌ„ the other bookes of Ioseph the which we do reade â— no receiue as histories very profitable But a greate deale wantoth that we should attribute vnto them so much authoritie as vnto those the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt to be y body of y holy Scripture Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouerâ—es of Salomon The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees but shee receineth them net among the Canonical Eusebius Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin written that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall Theophilus Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest speaking of the number of the times which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon vntill the comming of Iesus Christe Did he not write that the account and number of them are not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in the other among which are the bookes of the Machabees Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures Eusebius Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle why dost thou not adde that which followeth afterwardes The whiche sayth hée the Iewes hold not for Canonical but the Church doth Theophilus But doth he not adde by and by the reason wherefore the which serueth to my purpose Eusebius Hee sayth that it is bicause of the vehement and merueilous passions of some Martirs whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe for the lawe of GOD before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments Theophilus He vnderstandeth by those Martirs the seuen brothers of the Machabees with their mother who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of god It is easie to vnderstand by those words that the Church hath not receiued those bookes in suche authoritie as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical Apostolical church nor to be sufficient for to allow confirme or for to builde any doctrine which ought to be holeÌ„ for an article of faith for to vanquish the hereticks But only in such stéede as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories legends of martirs not a heape of foolish fabulous legends made by a heape of dreaming and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks as are the liues of the fathers the golden legend and other like more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras Orson Valentine the erring kinghtes Mandeuill or the true narrations of Lutian and others like made for pleasure then among the Ecclesiasticall histories But they haue bene in suche reputacion among the wise men as the bookes of Iosephus Eusebius Sozomenus Theodoritus Socrates and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesiasticall histories and the liues of Martyrs for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples But not that they are of such authoritie that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine And that it is euen so as I doe saye I will not proue it by anye other witnes then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth against mee That is to saye Sainct Augustin who hath written in an other place after this manner saying The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees as the Law the Prophets and Psalmes to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes as vnto this witnesses saying All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets nad in the Psalmes But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche not without profit if one doe reade and marke it soberly Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche Wherefore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time if it were not but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue that it is of the holy Scripture and that we doe deny it After that sorte haue bene allowed some bookes called the Canons oâ—
We may take it for a certeyne rule that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet or man worthy to bee accompted for such a one For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language to wit Hebrew or in the language of the Chaldees sithence the time of the captinite of Babilon Furthermore it is easye to knowe that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Israell into Hierusalem and the age of Esdras Nehemias Aggeus Zachary Malachy sithence which wée do not read that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing nor other bookes of a certeyne and autenticke authour Wherefore by good ryght this héere is accompted for Apocrypha And although there were no other reason for to diminishe his authoritye but the excuse whiche the authour of the sayde booke made in the ende of his worke that ought to suffice thée Reade the laste Chapter and thou shalte sée it by experience If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the spiryte of GOD that all that whiche hée hath written procéeded from him as the Prophetes and Apostles haue done wherefore shoulde hée excuse himselfe both of the stile of the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed If hée had bene alwayes inspired with the same spirite by which the Prophets and Apostles haue spoken he would haue spoken surely and in the authority of God as those who without excusinge themselues haue sayd The Lorde hath spoken it And Sainct Paul with what authoritie speaketh hee affirming that the Gospell whiche hee hath preached was so certeyne that although an Angell came downe from heauen for to bringe anye other vnto you he ought not to bée receiued but accursed Learne then Eusebius to discerne the bookes of the holye Scripture form the others and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall that seconde booke of the Machabees but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected and of which it might serue the Church for declaration of the Scriptures bicause of the histories conteyned in the same whiche doe giue a certeine openinge for the intelligence of the antiquitie as the histories of Ioseph doe Yet neuerthelesse if one marke them well it shall be easle to iudge that the first and the second are not all of one authour not onely by the diuersitie of the stile 〈◊〉 also bicause that in the second are reiterated some bistories and many things which already haue bene intreales â—â— in the first and a great deale better then they are in this If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Testament any like place vnto that which thou hast alledged the argument should haue some colour by the shewe that the other would giue vnto it But forasmuch as it is alone his witnesse is not sufficient as it shoulde bée in the one of the others For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witnesse as by a thousand where a thousand witnesses of men without the same of God ought not to bolde any place in the religion But sithence that the superstition of the suffrages prayers for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche thys booke also hath begunne to take greate authorytie in suche sorte that it oftener is reade and songe in the Popishe Churche then those that contâ—yned more surer doctrine And thu oughtest also to vnderstand that the auncients haue sometime put a difference betweene y Canonical Apocrypha Ecclesiasticall bookes as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded the Creede the which some doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian other that it was Ruffin But whosoeuer if were of them both they are both of them very auncient and haue deuyded those bookes after that sorte Yée must know saith he that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall which are not called of the auncients of our predeâ—â—â—â—ors Canonicall but Câ—â—lessasticall as are the wisdome of Salomon and the other wysedome which is called Iesus the sonne of Syrach the which booke is among the Latins by that generall tytle called Ecclessasticus by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture The booke of Toby is of the same order and of Iudith and the bookes of the Machabees the which they would that they should bée all read in the Church but they would not that they should haue bene settle foorth for to conâ—â—rme the authoritie of the fayth by them The other Scriptures they haue called Apocrypha the which they woulde not that they shoulde be read in the Churche Thou 〈◊〉 sée héere most playnelye howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures and vnto the Ecclessastical more then vnto the Apocryphâ— but they haue not yet neuerthelesse estéemed those Eccleslassastical which they haue many times called apocrypha of equall and such authoritie as the diuine scriptures nor they haue called them Eccleslasticall for that cause but bicause that they were in such reputation that one niyght reade and signe them in the Churche the wâ—â—â—â— was not permitted in the auncient Churche or bicause that theyr antiquitie or holynesse of their authours added vnto them a â—yttle more authoritie then vnto the other Thomas By that accompte Eusebius then shall bée vnweapened of his principall staffe that hée thought to haue Eusebius If they would after that sort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at they re pleasure it is méere folly to disputs with them For all those which bée not to their mindes shall be Apocrypha Theophilus If thou wilt not be confenâ—ed with the reasons by me alledged go and plead against Sainct Hierome and your decrees If the auncients had not vsed iudgemeÌ„t and wisdome how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets Apostles and of their Disciples The which they haue reâ—â—csed them following that same rule which I haue giuen vnto thée as it appeareth by your decrees which are a great rolle of them But I wil yet do more to the ende I leaue theâ— not an occasion to be miscontented w me I am content by way of disputation to put the case that y booke should be autentick of a diuine authoritie And although it were so it would serue thée yet neuerthelesse nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purgaâ—ory that we must offer for the dead to such intent and in such sort as you do make it And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly I demaund of thée for to begin first ouâ— matter in what time was that made which the history conteineth was it before the coÌ„ming of our Lord Iesus Christ or afterwards Eusebius Before Theophilus Tell me moreouer was the Purgatorye in that time such as thou beléeuest it is
peace and at rest Wherefore let vs sing an other Oremus Let vs suffer them to sing that in stéede of Vigiles and of Libera me and of their Fidelium and I will make his Epitaph which shall serue him for his latter Oremus O gentle sir Iohn who of Purgatory Hast gotten so much of siluer and golde Make speedely to be known to all of the Popry To sing Requiem aeternam for his sweete soule By him an Epicures lyfe thou didst lead But now alas he is dead an hath no place And with him thy earthly kingdome is dead Sing for him then Requiescant in pace Thomas Amen Now sith that he is buryed let vs goe to Supper that he may haue also his funerall Supper and that wée may as well banket as the priests in those of the dead in the dayes of their Anniuersaries yeares minde Hillarius Let vs goe FINIS ¶ A Table of the principall matters of the thirde parte of the Christian disputacions A. ABsolution of the quick and the dead 275. Aduertisement 293. Against the Originists 272. Alexander 283. Amongst whom are reputed the soules of Purgatory 274. Anabaptists 238. Ansegisus 234 Angells dare not curse the diuells 285. Aunswere to the place of the Psalmes 263. Antechrist 276. Antiochus 215. Apocripha what it is 216. Apostles of the circumcision 257. Apothegma 211 Archesilaus 257. Argument a posteriori 279. Asshes of Pope Boniface 280. Augmentation of the felycitie to Angels 246. Authoritie of the booke of the Machabees 213. Authoritie of the Prophets Apostles 217. Authoritie of the Scripture 217. Authoritie of the church 217. B. Baptise with the holy Ghost and fire 235 Baptise two times in the yeare 239 Baptisme delayed 239. Baptisme onely of Iesus Christ 256 Baptisme of woemen 241 Baptisme of water whether it be necessary to saluation 232. Baptisme of deuotion 233. Baptisme of bloud 237. To be baptised for the dead 290 Beginning of the iudgement of God. 247. Beginning of Hell and Paradise 248. Bonauenture deified and made God. 283. Boniface the eight 280. Bookes Canonicall 216. Bookes of Thoby 262. Booke second of the Machabees 217 Bookes Canonical and Apocripha 214 Bookes of Ioseph 214 To be borne agayne of water how it is be vnderstanded 234. Bosome of Abraham 225 Boow the knee 291 Bulles doing all things 284 Bulles in Purgatory 277. Burying of Purgatory 299. Burying of the conscience 277. C. Candell before 268 Canons of the Apostles 215 Cathecismenes 237 Circumcision deferred 229 Christ the restorer of all things 247 Christ our pledge 215. Church of Lausanne 256. One onely and eternall Church 244. Charecter indebilis 276. Charles 256. Clement the sixt 283. Clockes of Purgatory 286. Comparison of the diuine and humaine doctrine 264. Comperison of the lyfe present and that to come 246. Condition of the childreÌ„ of the christioÌ„s 230. Conscience 247. Conscientia mille testes 247. Consolation in Abrams bosome 231. Contrarieties of Canons 285 Cornelius 298. Counsell of Africa 242. Creame Papisticall 276. Creators of the Creator 281. Custome of the true false doctors 266. D. Day of the Lord. 264. Dead doe bite 274. The dead how they are punished in their successours 253 Degrees of the Iudgement of god 249 Descending of Christ into hell 296. Difference betweene the Limbe Purgatory and Hell. 22â— Difference betweene the fire of Purgatory and Hell. 221. Difference betweene the olde and new Testament 244 Difference betweene the dead vnder the olde and new Testament 244 DispeÌ„sation of the tresure of the church 284 Disposition of this Dialogue 262 Diuersitie of pardons 271 Doctrine troublesome 259 Doctors scholasticall doubting of the bulls 284. Dreames of the Saints and of the rauing Theologasters 213 Dreamers or sleepers 249. E. Eccius 262. Encrease of glory in the other lyfe 245. Enâ—ant how it shall beare the iniquitie of his father 253. Error about the Sacraments 238. Error touching the Supper 234. Error of the Bohemians Morians 234. Estate of the soules after the seperation from the body 249 Eternitie temporall 272. Euangelists of the Pope 287. Example of the long dayes in Purgatory 286. Example of Iudas Machabeus 251. Example of the mercy of God. 220. Example 212. 286 Example of Fryer Roger. 277. Examples that the Saynts ought not to be all drawne into a generall consequence 243. Example of Ziphora 243. Exposition of the place of Saint Iohn ca. 3. 234. Exposition of the schoolemen vppon the plâ—ce of Saint Iohn ca. 3. 236 Exposition of the place of Thoby 262. Exposition of the place of the 1. Cor. ca. 3. 263. Exposition Allegoricall 268 Excommunicate the dead 282. Excommunicate the doctrine of the dead 285 Ex puris negatiuis nihill sequitur 271. F. Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus 221. Fable of the fayned mourning of a Laborer 300. Fable of Gregory 221. Faith of Symon 240. Fire 265. Foundation of the order of the Mendicants 287. Fryer Christopher 255. Friends of the kitchin 223. Furyed and she diuells 248. G. Gates of dreames 212 Gate of yâ—ory and of horne 213. Gentiles saued without Circumcision 229. Gerion 258. Gibellinus 280. God of Hipocrites 22â— God compared to tyrants 252. Good workes 223. Grace halfe 251. Great Lockyer 276. 2â—5 Greatnesse of the paines of Purgatory 221. Gregory the first made no mention of bulls for the dead 284. H. Halfe a sauiour 251 Hangmen of Infants 238. Harman condempned by the Pope 282 Saint Harman 282 Hell of the Origenists and Catabaptists 224. Helindius 270 Henticus 4. 282 Hercules 258. Herostratus 256. Herostratus burned the Temple of Diana 256. Herauld of righteousnesse 29â— Holy Ghost a fire 235. Holy Ghost water 235. Honour to the sacraments 2â—9 Hostensis contrary to the bulls 284. Hipocrits enuious of the grace of god 220 Hydra 258. I. Ignoraunce excuseth 〈◊〉 289. Image of death 250 Indians 235. Incredulitie of Thomas 212. Insufficiencie of the booke of the Machabees for to proue Purgatory 2â—1 〈◊〉 of saints for the dead 277. Ioseph authour of the booke of the Machabees 214. Isaac and Ismael Iubile of the Pope 283. Iubile of God. 283. Iudgement of the Scriptures to whom it apperteineth 216. Iudgement by the word 211. Iudgement of the Sodomites and Gomorrians 288. Iudgement of saint Hierome touching the bookes of the Machabees 214 Iustice and mercy of God. 222 K. Keyes of saint Peter of the Pope 276. Keyes of hell 279 Keye chaunged 276. Kindrâ—â—s of Loth. 288 L. Languages of the Prophets 217 Our Lady of Butter 241. Legends of Saints 215. Legittimation 216. Lembe 226. Lembus 226. Limbus 225. Saint Lewes canonized 282 Licence Theologicall 225 Limbe of the Infants destroyed 238. Limbe of the Infants 226. Limbe of the Fathers 244. Limbe 219. 297 Limbe what it signifieth 225. Liuing called dead 294 Ludâ— seculares 283. M. Madianiâ—s papisticall 287. Machabees 215. Man making Gods. 280. Manner to know God. 279. Marke of conscience 277 Marke of the great whore 277. Marâ—â—â—nists 242. Martirs before the comming of Iesus
the supper taken avvay from the people The Councel of Constance of Basile Transubstantiition The honourable recantation of Berengarius De con dist 2 Lgo Berengarius Mat 26. c. 27. Marc. 14. c. 22. Luc. 22. b. 19 The Conuent of Monkes Multitude of Masses for hidde De con dist 1. ca. sufficit What company ought to haue the Masse De con dist 1. ca. Hoc quoque Mat. 16. c. 27 Marc 14. c. â—2 Luc. 22. b. 19 The breaking of the hoast De con dist 2. ca. â—riform Sergius 2. Oâ— porci Plat. The names of the Popes changed Bonauent li. 4. dist 12. Hilbert in eleg de Euchaâ—istiu The memento of the quicke of the dead The sâ—pper a 〈◊〉 of reâ—â—â—tion The dispising contemning of the supper King Levves Statutes for the communion Ausegisus li. 2. Ca 38 Fabtan De con dist 2. hâ— Concilium Aga thâ—se â—libâ—â—t De cen dist 2. 〈…〉 Concil Latera The councell of Pope Innocent De pen. remiss omnis v◠〈◊〉 Albert. li. de missae myst The conslareie of the Greekes Purgatory retested of the Greekes The Counsell of Florence Scismes Antipopes Plat. in vita Eng. li. concil The Counsell of Busle Pope Martin Sigismond Emperour The Counsell of Ferrora Plague Pope Engenius A yme Duke of Sanoy Ripailles Pope Felix Purgotory receyned by the Greekes Rutenus Nicenus Beisation Rossensis The VVitnesse VVhich Saint Hâ—ereme ytueth cllus time 〈◊〉 lanua 1. 9. Aertus Hierom against Vigtlantius The opinion that Styne August in had of Pingarory Collo 2. 3. 3. Li. desâ—â—â— oper ca. 16. Addulâ—â— q. 1 in Enchir. ca 68. 69 De ciui deili 21. ca. 26. Tho. in 4. dist 21. Autho. 1. Par. 〈…〉 10. Cap 2. The doctrine of the Apostles perfect Raâ— diui off li. 7. 3. q. 7. in grauib 24. q. 1. odâ— 1. de ponderet extra de renun Nisi 5. 1. Monica Li. confess 9 câ— 11. The affection of the women that follovved Iesus Luc. 24. a. 5. Mat. 18. 2. 1. Marc. 16. b. 6. Iolus 10. â— 11. The vvitnes of Saint Augusture against purgatory of the Pope De ciui det li. 10 â— 1. 24. The true Pargatory De câ—â— Dei. li 10. ca. 22. 1. Timo. 2. â— 5. lieb 1. 2. 3. De eiui Dei. li. 13. ca. 9 De trinita li. 4 ca. 13. De ciuis Dei. li 21. ca. 13 Purgatory in this worlde Enchi â— 67. The fire dinturnall eternall Contra Pelag Hypogu li. 5 Two vvayes onely Other vvitnesses of the most auncion doctors agaynst Purgatory Ter aduer Marl. li. 4. The sieldes Ehâ—eus Abrahams bosome To affirme vncerteyne things Irene aduer ha res Valentma Recogn li. 1. The booke of Clement Purgatory is either far all or els ther is none Psa 32. The diuersltie of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead Theologia Ac. â— demâ—a 1. Timo. 1. b. 7. The certeyntie in the doctrine of the faith required The disputacioÌ„s of the babblers of diuinitie Temerine to affirme Tho. m. 4. dist 21. 〈…〉 Sinne 〈◊〉 holy Ghost Dist 19. ca. 51. Romanorum To sinne against the Pope The couâ—cell of Saint Augustin in Genes 11. 10 Mat. 24. b 24. The elect in daÅ„ger to b. seduced The reigne of 〈…〉 and he vvorking of 〈…〉 â—â—â— 59. a. 5. 2. thess. 2. b. 5 Rash determinations â—â—â—â—nations vvhat thing vve may safely he ignorant off and vvhat not Luc. â—3 s 43. Vnâ—o vvhom do â—â—perreyne the extreme appeâ—â—â—vions in causes of â—d ygloa Ordinary iudge Diuine humayne councells Mat. 18. Act. 15. b. 8. The power of the Pope Dist 34. c. ioctor Glos dist 82. ca. Hrestyter Glo. Apostolorum 17. q. 4. ca. 51. siquis dist 40. c St Papa Dist 96. c. Satis c. simplices inscriptis Dist 40. ca. Si Papa The â—oye out â—f th 〈◊〉 The vvitnesse of Antechrist agaynst his Purgatory De bapt ofsee cap. Maiores causat God pardoneth not the moyâ—ie Versus Magistrales ex glosa Larga Dâ—i pietas veniam non dimidial it Nam nil aut totum te lacrymante dabat Deut. 32. â— 4 Mar. 8. d. 29 Marc. â— c. 25 Pro. 17. d. 28 Iudgement by the vvorld Apothegma CoÌ„mon proâ—erb The incredulity of Thomas Iohn 20. â—â—â— S. Patricks wels The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa 119. c. 05. The gates of dreames The gate of Iuory horne The dreames of the Saints of the erring Theologisters The spirite of Bacchus 〈…〉 The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa 119. c. 105. The gates of dreames The gate of Iuory herne The dreames of the Saints of the eâ—ring Theologisters The spirite of Bacchus 2. Mach. 12. g. 43. The value of the thousand Dragmas The authoritie of the bookes of the Machabces Books canonical Apocripha The iudgement of saint Hierom touching the bookes of the Machabeeâ— Hiero. Pauli Ioseph y anthor of the bookes of the Machabees The bookes of Ioseph De ciui Dei. li 18. ca. 36 Martirs bescre the comming of Iesus Christ The Machabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus The legends of Saints Dist 15. ca. sancta Luc. 24. g. 44. The Canons the Apostles Dsti 16. casex againta can canoner propter Dist 16. ca. â—none Glos atâ— The eâ—onicall bookes Apocrypha Vnto whom the iudgement of the scriptures do appertcine Legitimation The authoritie of the Church The authoritie of the scripture Psa 19 c 9 The seconde bookes of the Machabees The sangnage of the Prophets The last Prophets The authoritie of the Prophets and Apostles Gal. 1 b. 8 The vvstnesse of God. Ad Chroma dist 5. ca. saÌ„cta The place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all for Purgâ—â—ory Purgatory before the comming of Christ Luc. 16. c. 19. The Limbe The reason vppon which Purgatory is builded Hipocrites enuious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of the mercy of God. Luâ— 23. l. 4â— Priuiledge Saluation by priuiledge Rom. 3. 9. Payne for satisfaction The only death of Iesus Christ doth satisfie Cypr. lib. 4. de bapismo lâ— sent 4. dist 4. sunt The greatnes of the paynes of Purgatory Dist 25. ca. Apostolus Tho. 4. dist 21. aâ— 1. Ric. 4. dist 20. arg 2. Aâ—ber 7. li. com theo ca. 2. Bona. 4. dist 18 Plutar. lâ— de sera numi vind Fable of Gregory Bart. fer 4. heb 4. quadrag Ser de poen purg Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6. Difference bevveene the fire of purgatory of hell Ric. 4. dist 20. arg 2. Bonauâ—n 4. dist 18. Albet 7. li. com pe tha ca. 2. Thom. 4. dist 21. arg 1. 3 er q. 46. ar 6. Barl. serm de pâ—na Purg. example Anto. â— par suÌ„ Mans reason the foundacion of Purgatory The Iustice and mercy of God. Esa. 9. b. 6 Iohn 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2â— Punishment for sinnes Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 Iohn 15. Gala. 3. â—â— Iohn 3. d. 36 The revvard
Doctors of the Churche are of our side or on yours And therefore I pray thée Eusebius that thou doe pursue thine enterprise and that thou shew forth so good places that they cannot be easely plucked from thy hands as they haue done those which thou hast alreadye taken of Sainct Ambrose Eusebius If I would display and shew foorth all that that I might alleadge aswel of the new and late Doctors as of the aunâ—ient I should aswell set them a worke as Hillarius did vaunt himselfe of late to haue set mée on worke but I haue not determined to alleadge others but of the most auncientest and of those whiche are of more greater authorite in the church by the which I will plainly proue that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead descended from the primatiue Churche and from the traditions of the Apostles For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes they would by and by reicete and despise their authoritie and woulde make none accompte of it But when I shall haue proued that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our side I shall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witnesse of the late Doctors and will more easelier stoppe their mouthes except they bée so past shame that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church which haue shored and held it vppe in the time of the Apostles and to affirme that there are not so manye good men and so wise and learned as they are Theophilus Thou shalt not finde vs so vnreasonable Put foorth thy case afterward Iudge whether wée haue reade and vnderstanded those of whom you doe glorye so much in Thomas I haue heard thée speake friend Fusebius of Sainct Augustine namely among others and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefest by whom thou mayst better fight then by any other if thou canst finde in him a strong staffe for to defende thee and to make warre against them For I haue vnderstanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil serue theÌ„ better for to proue their sect then hée Wherefore I am sure that if thou canst do so much that thou canst proue that he is contrary vnto them they shall receiue a great ouerthrow and thou shalt make a great breach in their Castle For if hée so whome they haue their recourse be their enemie they shal haue others which will rise against them Eusebius But so well assured theroff as thou are certeine that it is now daye And to the end thou shouldest not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my case I will shew vnto them the experience What do those wordes signifie which are written in his Encheridion which are also recited in y decrets and in the master of the sentences saying we must not denye that the soules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue when the sacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them or that almes is done in the Church But those thinges doe profite those who haue merited them during this lyfe to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them For there is a certeine manner of liuing whiche is not so good but that it requireth those things after death nor so euil but that after the same they may profit him But there is in lyke manner some kinde of lyfe so good that it requireth not the same And againe some so euill that it cannot haue ayde by those thinges after that this life shal be ended And therefore hee getteth here all the merite by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life Yet neuerthelesse there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD when he shall bée dead whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt This then whiche the Churche hath frequented for to prayse the dead is not contrary vnto that sentence of the Apostle which sayth wée shall all bée brought before the iudgement seat of Christ that euery man may receiue the workes of his body according to that hée hath done whether it hee good or badde For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite when hée lyued in this bodye that those thinges maye profite him For they profite not all men And wherefore doe they not profite all men but bycause of the difference of the lyfe the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye Then when the Sacryfices bée it of the Aulter or of almes déedes what soeuer they bée they are offered for all the dead whiche haue bene baptised those are giuing of thankes for those whiche haue bene verye good and propitiations for those whiche haue not bene very euill for to make God fauorable vnto them But for the moste wicked and euill although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead yet neuerthelesse those are certeine consolations for the lyuing But they doe profite those that they doe profite eyther to the ende that they maye haue full remission and forgiuenesse or without all â—eubt to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and easier to beare Thomas Hath Sainct Augustine written that â—usebius Doest thou thinke mée so much a foole that would declare it otherwise I warrant you they would not let mee passe so if they might saye the contrary But I am certeine they dare not do it And though they woulde they cannot For the booke is of faith and credit Thomas Those wordes are very cléere not onely for to proue the prayers for the dead but also the sacrifice of the â—ulter Eusebius One cannot finde a thing more cléerer For it openeth so plainely all the matter perticulerly and goeth before the obiections replyings which those that do speake against it might make For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue and diuers merites of men And giueth to vnderstand that it must bée hée which woulde that such good déedes should bée profitable vnto him after hys death should be here conducted in such sorte that they may profit him that is to say that it must bée that he dye confessed and repentant And hée speaketh not onely this in this place but in manye other like amongest whiche hée addeth yet this that notwithstanding that that which we do for the dead profit not all those for whom wée doe them Yet neuerthelesse bicause we do not know to whom it profiteth we must do theÌ„ to all y we leaue none out For it is a greate deale better that those to whome it can neither profit nor hurte should haue more then they neede then to want any thing vnto those which haue neede And in the same booke he saith moreouer wee doe reade in the second booke of the Machabees that sacrifice was offred for the dead but when one readeth them not in the auncient scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church is not little the which hath
the Apostles the whiche some among the auncients and among the Popes and counsels haue bene holden some for Canonical and others for Apocripha bicause that they doe serue in many thinges confirmable to the Apostolicall doctirne but they were not bound vnto them as vnto the holy Scriptures whiche they cannot reiect as they haue done often times when they haue found any Canon whiche séemeth much to differ from the Apostolicall doctirne Euen so maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees We may wel draw out of them examples for to exhorte the faithfull vnto paclence constancy and Martirdome propounding and declaring vnto them the vertue and the faith of that good mother with hir seuen sonnes who stoode so constantlye vnto death for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode who had not yet neuerthelesse such an occasion to doe that as we whiche haue more sure and certeine witnesses of the resurrection and of examples more euident aswell in Iesus Christ as in his Apostles dysciples then they had And so said S. Augstyne But it followeth not therfore that touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion they should be with equall authority with the others And therefore the glose made vpon the decrée recysith them among the Apocripha Eusebius I woulde gladly that thou wouldest declare vnto mée a litle more plainely what thou vnderstandest by the Canonicals and Apocripha Theophilus I doe call canonicall all the bookes of the new testament the whiche wée haue and of the doe in like manner all those whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe Bible the which we haue receiued of the holy Prophets and true seruaunts of God and whose authors are certeine and knowen And we doe cal them Canonicall which signifieth asmuch as rules bicause they are of an infallible veritie a certeine sure rule whiche is giuen vs of god for to ruel examine al other doctrine to proue the spirites whelter they are of God and for to liue according to the same Eusebius And what vnderstandest thou by Apocripha Theophilus Apocripha signifieth a thing hid secret or obscure which hath no sure or certein author or which is not alowed as are y bokes to y title is applies made at which are not sufferable but insomuch as their doctrin is confirmable vnto that of Canonicalls the which ought to be ruled by them And they haue no firme authoritie but that which those doe giue vnto it For in steede that we may take a sure foundation and buylding vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls we cannot doe it in those heere if they haue not alreadye their foundation on the other They haue not bene called Apocrypha bicause that it was not lawfull to haue them in ones lybrary and to reade them with iudgement for ones profite For that was not forbidden But haue taken that name bicause that they were not of such authoritie the one should holde them for a sure and infallible doctrine of the church of God And they were not red and expounded openly in the same and with such authoritie as those which without doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God to the which we are bounde to beléeue and to submit put our iudgement vnder them not to eleuate it aboue them or to iudge them by the other bookes which ought to bée subiect vnto them Eusebius And wherefore haue some of them more that authoritie then the others Theophilus Bicause that of the one we are cert eyne which are the pure wordes of God but not of the others but to the contrary Eusebius By what meanes Is it not bicause the Churche hath allowed them and not the other Now sith that their authority dependeth of the authority of the church if shee doe receine these here as the Canonicall maketh them of equall authoritie wherefore shall not they bée in the same degree Theophilus I doe beleeue that thou doest thinke that the church hath accustomed to legittimate the bookes as the Pope doth legittimate his bastardes The Popishe church may well take in hande that but that is not the propertie of the of Iesus Christ And although she woulde legittimate them yet they must be takē as bastards legitimated by the Pope which cannot be notwithstanding borne in lawfull maryage but do abide alwayes bastards and sonnes of fornication How can the daughter engender and beget hir Mother or hir Father Howe can the Church giue authoritie to the woorde of God who of the same receyueth hirs and of the same is begotten and borne Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightnesse Doth hée receiue it of men whome hee illuminateth and lighteth Eusebius No. But on the contrary men of it Theophilus Is it cléere and shining bicause that men doe iudge and confesse it to bée such Eusebius No. But bicause that it is such the men that doe sée it and haue the experience are constrayned to acknowledge and confesse it to bée such Theophilus Thou meanest notwithstandinge that the Sunne should bee cleere and giue light bicause that men doe thincke it to bée so Eusebius Thou doest mée wrong to impute vnto mée that which I neuer spake but altogether contrarye Theophilus Thou hast sayd it by other wordes Whereby thou doest not perceiue thy selfe For when thou saydest that the holy Scripture taketh hys authoritie of the church thou sayest that men do giue lyght and cléerenesse vnto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytnesse the word of the Lord is pure cléere that is the light which giueth light vnto the eyes giueth wisdome vnto babes It is then certeyne and true not bycause the Church iudgeth it such but it iudgeth it such bicause that it is so and cannot iudge of it otherwyse no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne of whiche the blinde person is not capable Wherefore hée cannot iudge no more then the Infidells and reprohate can iudge of the woorde of God nor allowe it Then thou mayst by this vnderstand that the certeynetye veritie and firmenesse doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement but vppon the holy Ghost and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth verifie it selfe and compelleth the faythfull heartes to allow and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies For the sheepe doe heare and vnderstand the shepeartes voyce but not that of the straungers And all that that the Prophetes haue forshewed and taught the Apostles in lyke manner haue bene verified and authorysed by the vertue of him which hath spoken in them insomuch that all the worlde cannot resist it Nowe wée cannot saye she lyke of the bookes of the Machabees chiefely of the seconde First for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe and that the stile of the same witnesseth cléerely that it was first made in Greeke and was not translated frō the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue
it in the month of February by y institution appointmeÌ„t of Numa Pompilius y second king of the Romaines Al the reason that moued Odillo procéeded but of ignoraunce for y he vnderstood not the cause whereof those gronings noise and feareful cryes which he hearde in Sicily about that mountaine did arise But imagined that it was the Diuels which haled and fore themselues by the haire sorrowing with great despite that they sawe thesoules goe out of paines and tormentes But his imagination hath brought no hurt to his couent nor to all the other Monkes and Priestes For that sanie day is the best faire that they haue all the yeare and a time in which they make haruest and vintage altogether with not taking ouermuch paines If the soules of the deceased haue as much gaine as they they may bée very ioyfull of the feast Thomas But I woulde gladly knowe from whence those cryes and mourninges did procéede whether they came from the Diuels or from the soules of the dampned or from those which are kept in Purgatory or of some other naturall cause Hillarius The cause is easie to bée knowne of him who wyll vnderstande what is the situation and nature of the place For of the one side is the roaringe of the Sea which maketh an horrible noise on the other side the greate goulfes of fire that arise and come out of the mounteyne Wherefore when the vehement â–ª windes doe blowe and enter violently into the holes and caues that are â–ª there and mingle themselues wyth those vaines of brimstone kindled with that impetous fire wée must not meruaile when all those thinges mixt and confused together doe méete if there are fearefull cryinges and such which the Poet hath described saying Loâ— here the hill that Aetna hight most horrible to beholde Thundring out and making cries most terrible to be tolde Which many times doth cast froÌ„ it of clowds that are ful darke And also vvhirle vvinds that are great vvith smoke that is ful black And burning sparkes of fire did fly and flames that are most great Which from the fire rose sodeinly and toucht the heauenly seat Which oftentimes doth vomit out the hovvels and the guts Of rockes and stones that are full hard which in that hil ther luâ—kes Thomas I doe then much doubte if it bée euen so as you saye but that the good Odillo was deceyued and that hée and all his Monkes haue greatly dreamed Hillarius They haue at the least so much dreamed and those which haue beléeued their dreames as they who stayinge themselues vppon the fables of Poets haue thought that Enseladus Briarnis and the other Gyauntes were buried vnder that great and burning hil of Aetna after that Iupiter destroyed them with lightning and ouerthrewe them vppon the mounteines that they had made for to ascend into heauen when they warred agaynst him For euen as they imagined that those fearefull and terrible Gyauntes were enclosed vnder that mounteyne who remouinge themselues from the one side to the other dyd cast and throwe foorth those great and daungerous â—â—â—tes flaminge fyers whoorlewindes and smoked Those héere doe put the Dyuels in sléeâ—e of the Gyants And doe attribute vnto them that which the mounteyne doth naturallye So as other dreamers and foâ—â—es haue done of the mounteine of Islande and Norwaye of which they that haue written of those Regyons Countryes doe wytnesse that they are almost like vnto that hyll Aetna and specially about the borders of Norwaye For they say that there is there a mounteyne commonly called Hechelbergo enuironed with the Sea the most horrible and fearefull that is in the worlde And for to make the tale better and the thing more meruaylous they saye also that there are hearde the cryinges wéepinges and lamentations of the soules which goe into Hell insomuche as those horrible cryes and noyse are spreade and heard a myle rounde aboute They adde moreouer that there are very great and meruaylous blacke Rauens Crowes which flye rounde about it makinge also horrible cryes in such sort that they terrefie euery man that none bareth to approche nighe vnto that mounteine Afterwards ther ariseth out of the same two fountaines whereof the one is of such vehement and excessiue coldenesse and the other of such heate that both of them are intollerable and there is no Element howe colde or hotte soeuer it bée but that they surmounte it both in heate and coldenesse And which is more in that same Countrey towardes the South partes as men saye there is a place called Nadhegrin in which the Dyuels of that place doe appeare vnto men whome they sée before their eyes hauing bodies of the ayre Thomas Odillo might haue had better occasion to haue situated Hell and Purgatory there then in the hyll Aetna Hillarius It woulde haue had better appearaunce if those thinges were true But if wée shoulde staye our selues vppon such dreames and lyes wée myght also forge an other Hell and Purgatory in Scotland in which men say that there is a hill full of sorrow very fearfull by reason of the cryes of those that do wéepe and lament there And in Thuringia there is a hill in which ther are heard most horrible noise cryes And y hath not onely the name to be frequeÌ„ted with Faunes Satyres which are a kinde of Diuels which many waies haue seduced y Panims But also some do affirme y they haue séene the same by experience And some writers Authours accoÌ„pted for men worthy of credite haue written it Thomas There should bée then many Helles and Purgatories by that accompt But bicause I feare very much that there are great follies and lyes in those histories I thincke that it shoulde bée most sure and expedient for mée to take that way which I first purposed then to take the way either in Sicily or in any of those places that you haue named vnto mée For the way is not much frequented nor knowne as that is which I haue taken vppon mée except you haue touched the one of the countries whether I would goe Hillarius Whether haue you then enterprised to goe Thomas I doe make mine accompt to goe straight into Scotland or into Ireland Hillarius Is there any way to descend into these infernall Regions and countries Thomas Haue you euer heard spoken of the voyage and Caues of Saint Patricke doe you not remember the bookes that we had at schoole when wée were little children Hillarius You make me now remember the saying of my Graundfather Were we not happy in those daies that we had such bookes in our handes in stéed of some good Authour and of the Bible and holy Scriptures If wée consider well the vnhappinesse and misery of that time and barberousnesse and ignoraunce both of God and all good discipline which then possessed all the worlde and compare it with the mercy which GOD at
heape of fooles who demaunded a forme shape of the soules and did thincke that they did retourne Upon which he saith From thence by his accompt the lake of Auernus is not farre off from whence some do saye that the soules doe come in a blacke shadow after that the gate of Acheron is opened and that from thence came foorth the Images and figures of the dead men with false bloude Notwythstandinge the same they woulde that those Images and visions shoulde speake the which they cannot doe without a tongue mouth and throate or wythout strength figure of lyuer ribs And although they sée nothing by apprehension of vnderstāding they would y those figures of the dead should be represented before their eies Although y Cicero rebuked y opiniō of those yet neuerthelesse they do not accord very euil with y theology of your Doctours Wherefore thou oughtest to coutent thy selfe with my solution or if thou wilt haue a better propound the question in Sorbonne and if the Doctors cannot absolue it let them condemne the bookes of Barleta and of other lyke dreamers forbid the Moonkes to reade their Sermons full of blasphemy rather then the holy Scriptures and the bookes that they iudge to be full of heresies onely bycause that they doo contayne truth and which condemne their abuse Theophilus They will not doe so For the other do cause the water to come better to their mil. Moses witnesseth that Pyson the one of the foure flouds of the terrestryall Paradise bringeth golde with his waues But those will haue nothing to doe with the flouds of Paradise nor of the golde that they bringe which is a great deale more precious then that which they drawe from their internal flouds the which they preferre before those bicause of the greate riches and treasures that they drawe there out Hillarius There is no Prince vpon the earth whiche getteth or draweth so much out of the flouds nor mines as they haue That is none of the golde which Tagus the floud of Portingale bringeth with his sandes Or Pactolus of Lydia Or Ganges of India Or Hebrus of Thracia Or Padus of Italy Or Orcus whiche is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont All the golde that those flouds haue is nothing in comparisō of that that they catch in their internall floudes which cause the whéeles of their Mill to turne about very well In very déede they haue an Orcus which is more fertile in golde then that of Piedmont And the name agréeth with it very well For Orcus signifieth hell from whence those flouds arise whiche cannot ioyne themselues with those flouds of the terrestryall Paradise no more then Eurotos with Peneus that goodly floude of Thessaly which cannot abide nor suffer that the execrable waters of that stincking floud engendred wyth paines and torments should be mingled wyth his siluer flouds But they must swimme aboue him as Oyle and after the he hath carryed him a little he driueth him farre from him Theophilus Those héere would as well mingle the waters of their stincking Cesterns with the water of life But it agréeth not together For Iesus Christe cannot abide nor suffer that but casteth it farre from him Wherfore I doubt verye much that as he hath already kindled his fire which hath burned Purgatory that he will also repulse those riuers and lakes and that he will cause them that they shall not swell ouer as a flud doth his waters for to quench and put out that little fire which shall be there left Hillarius they ought a great deale more to feare that flud then the drowning and ouerflowing of Tiber whiche was like to haue drowned Rome For when it runneth ouer it will carry away both the castle of Sainct Ange the Pope and his Popedome and all the Romish Babilon Wherefore it is no meruaile though they feare those euangelicall waters and endeuour themselues to keepe their filthy internall puddles and infectious and stincking welles For that is all the force and riches of their kingdome The flud Nilus which ouerfloweth the land of Aegypt which maketh their fields fruitful and fat and bringeth vnto them great aboundance and increase of wheate and other corne by the mudde filth fat ground dunge and fatnesse that it bringeth with it is not so fertile nor profitable vnto the Aegyptians which inhabit in the land of Aegypt as vnto vs new Aegyptians Wherefore if the Aegyptians take such paine about their flud Nilus and haue their Nilometres that is to say the mesurers of the flud Nilus which haue the charge to measure it for to know whether it encrease much or little we must not be estonished if those heere doe so trauayle after theirs Thomas Wherefore doe they that Hillarius Bicause that if that Nilus do not encrease but twelue cubytes then they haue the famine in Aegypt bycause that if all their groundes are not watred and moysted through the ouerflowinge of the same those whiche are not couered are as the sande and wyll brynge foorth no fruite For it rayneth not in Summer and all their felicitie and riches dependeth vpon Nilus As Moses declared vnto the Israelites comparinge Aegypt vnto the lande of Canaan If the floud Nilus arise vppe xiif cubites yet there shall be tamishment in Aegypt If it encrease xiiif cubites it bringeth ioye if xv it bringeth assurednesse if it encrease xvf. cubites it bringeth delightes and pleasures For they haue such store and aboundaunce of corue and other goodes that all is plentifull On the contrarye if it encrease aboue measure they cannot sowe bicause that the water tarryeth so longe that the earth wyll not bée drye to bée tylled But when it encreaseth by measure they make greate chéere takynge care for nothinge and therefore they haue those Nilometres whiche measure the hyght and depth of those waters and if they knowe that it aryseth not hygh ynoughe for to water all the earthe they make it to be knowen through out all the Townes and Cyties afterwardes euery one maketh dykes and trenches for to make it the easier to runne all abrode If they knowe to the contrary that it wyll swell and ryse vp to hye and that throughe hys greate aboundaunce of hys waters it wyll let and hynder to sowe and tyll the earth they make greate rampers and walles rounde aboute it for to kéepe it in and to cause it to runne more slowelye Nowe therefore doubte not but that our Aegyptians are as wyse in their generations and that they knowe as well that practise for to prouide and foresee to theire Niles and flouddes whiche cause the water to come to theire Milles from which all their fertilities and ryches do procéede and wyth which they fishe and catche the goulde of which yet neuerthelesse they can neuer be satisfied For they are as a goulfe of the sea in which these ryuers dooe emptie
the aunerent Doctors of the Church he laboureth and enforceth himselfe if he can relieue it through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees by occasion whereoff is intreated the difference which ought to be put betweene the bookes that are Canonicall those that are Apocryph And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie reputation that booke ought to be among the Christians Afterwards although peraduenture there shal be some matters which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men yet neuertheles shall be spokē of the Limbes as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead dead without circumcision baptisme of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new old testamēt as wel little as great as wel quick as dead of their condition estate We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions that there is good prositable necessary points to be vnderstanded for to correct many errors abuses false opinions thuching those matters which are come among the Christians Ther shal be in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by womē declared by liuely plain reasons how Iesus Christ is the onely health satisfaction of all the elect children of God how the vertue efficacie of his death pasion extendeth it selfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same Item what is the true baptisme of Iesus Christ the remission of sinnes the satisfaction worthy of the righteousnesse of god To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Christian What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill and by what means some are deliuered and other some doe abide subiect Furthermore how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one and whether we ought yet to attend loke for it And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world when their full and whole consumation shal bee It shal be in like manner declared how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory And there shall be also declared of the manner by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead and for the comming of Iesus Christ and wherein the Christians may follow it without speaking against the word of god It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory and the prayers for the dead and what maske instrument he hath chosen for to do that Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels bicause that wee doe declare how many hel 's the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded ¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels EVsebius For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first Wherfore I giue him the choice whether he will go before or behinde Hillarius I desire for my part that Thomas doe rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it Thomas Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace if you wyll For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée you will mocke me chiefly Hillarius who is so expert in that occupation I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent For the matters that you haue to intreat off are better then those which you can heare of mée And in hearing you I may profite but in speaking I can but spende the time the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende And therefore beginne and after if there be any spare time I will sée what I shal do Theophilus I beleeue that we shal haue time inough Feare not thē to begin sith y thou hast alredy told vs y thou wilt not be ouer long But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much knowing that the more thou refusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund so much y more we desire it Thomas I haue regard vnto another thing I consider y which Salomon hath writtē saying if a foole do hold his tongue he shal be counted wise For he compareth man to a loohing glasse or a bell y which one doth know by the sounde whether they be broken or whole So in like manner may one iudge of man in hearing him speake whether hée be wise or foolish For one perceiueth the spirit of man in his word As his figure in a glasse and one may beholde in the same the nature of him as the complection of the body in his water vrine by which it is easie to iudge what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine Hillarius Thou wilt that one should saye of thée that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man y he did sée sit at a banket which spake not a word although y all the others did put foorth certeine questiōs gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course If that man saith he be a wise man hée playeth the part of a foole if he be a foole he playeth the part of a wise man. Thomas I cannot well vnderstand that matter For me thinketh that it conteineth implyeth contradiction Hillarius He giueth therby to vnderstand that euen as too much speaking apperteineth vnto fooles ideots so alwaies to holde ones peace agréeth to beasts and not vnto men Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things Thomas That is the same to the which I pretend And I doe thinke that I speak ynough according to the place men with whom I am And bicause y I am not wise for to speak wel I wil at the leastwise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise For it is cōmonly said it is euil to speak Latin before learned men When I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe I doe speake as a Doctor especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they But when I come before you I doe loose by and by all my babling Hillarius Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised Thomas Sith y thou vrgest mée so much thou shalt haue it But if thou doest mocke mée bée assured that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee for
infamy the which yet neuertheles redoundeth more vnto their pareÌ„ts friends then vnto them But they forget themselues or rather they think that they do yet foele shal féele that dishonour infamye and publike shame which shall continue to their infants and lynage And although that they bée sufficiently tormented with their euill yet neuerthelesse they féele a great ease and refreshing if they vnderstande that their children haue none euill their torment is aggrauated and increased if they vnderstande the contrarie For that cause the Prophetes doe threaten not onely the wicked sort of their owne ruine and distruction but doe foreshewe vnto them that of their children and the euilles whiche shall happen vnto them as it appeareth in the prophecy of Esaie against Babylon and others like But for to stoppe all those euills and for to appaise the wrath of God kindled vpon vs as well for our sinnes as those of our fathers there is no better prayers nor offrings then to runne with true repentance amendemeÌ„t of life to implore his mercy Behold the good prayers for y deade to that ende that their sinnes be not counted wish ours Although that it be after whatsoeuer manner 〈◊〉 wilt take that place it sufficeth móe at this present to haue shewed vnto thée that thou canst not by the same proue thy purgatory although that the booke shoulde bée of the holy scripture And if thou wilt giue vnto it any credit it may better serue thée for to proue the Lymbe if there be one then the Purgatory But sith that Iesus Christ is come and that you confesse that he hath drawen the â—athers from the Lymbes the example of Iudas Machabeus can haue no more place among you sith that according to your doctrine the cause is ceased Eusebius Put case that there were no more neither Lymbe nor Purgatory can we not at the least pray for the resurrection of the deade And for the seconde comming of Iesus Christ the which we doe looke for as well as the auncyent fathers haue prayed for the first and haue desired and sighed after it Theophilus We may well pray as I haue alreadye saide and aske of God all that which apperteyneth to the perfection of his kingdome But to make prayers which are called prayers for the deade and to pray in perticuler that God woulde raise vp againe the bodyes of those which are deade and that Iesus Christ would soone come to iudgement I haue no commaundement of God nor example in all the holy scripture but rather to the contrary For when the Lorde aunswered vnto the soules of the saints which complayned of their persecutors that they shoulde â—arry vntill the number of their bretheren were fulfilled he doth sufficiently shewe by the same that he hath prefered the tyme the which cannot be plucked nor driuen backe And sith that the thing is altogether certeine and that we are alreadie all assured what néede is it then to make perticuler praiers Eusebius We are asmuch assured that all thinges which ought to come are passed by the counsell of God and that he will giue vs all that which shal be requisite to our helth and saluation that all the haires of our heade are numbred and none shall fall to the grounde without his wyll and his kingdome shall shall come and shall be exalted aboue all creatures but we may not leaue off therefore to pray continually â— to demaunde those thinges of God. Theophilus It is an other thing of vs which are yet in our voiage earthly peregrination â— of those which haue alreadie ended their course vnto whome we can no more add too nor dimynish For all the while that we are yet in the battaile we may empaire or amende and we haue alwayes néede to inuocate and call for the aide of God both for vs and for our bretheren which are yet in combate fight with vs And which is more God commaundeth vs so to do not that he knoweth not better then we what we do lacke before we do aske and that hee is not willing to giue it vs but hee doth it for to hold and kéepe vs in his feare to learne vs to sanctifie his name to exercise our faith towards him and our loue towardes our neighboure whilest that wée may serue him in this mortall peregrination But after that the voctorie is gotten or lost and that one is once come and arriued to the hauen and port to which he must go the cause and the occasion is no more such Eusebius Thou hast saide before that the soules of the blessed and the verye Angels were not yet in their full glorie Also wee cannot denye but that the bodies of the faithfull that are deade are yet kept in death sith that they are in corruption from the which they shal not be deliuered vntill their resurrection that death shal be altogether abolished What euill is it then to pray for the deade that their bodie may be deliuered from corruption and that they may haue their perfect consummation in bodie and soule Theophilus I haue alreadie satisfied thée in that if thou vnderstandest what difference there is betwéene the lyuing and the deade And although we had none other thing but that the scripture maketh no expresse commasidement that ought to suffice thée For if it were a question to worke subtilly and sophistically in the worde of god I shoulde well haue asmuch reason to put forth that wée must make prayers in perticuler for the virgin Marye for all the Prophets Apostles Saints and Saintes of Paradise Yea for the Angells and for Iesus Christ himselfe Hillaâ—ius It shoulde be requisite then by that accompt to make out of hand a newe Letany In stéede where the Prâ—estes do sing saint Michael pray for vs saint Mary mother of God pray for vs saint Peter pray for vs and so consequently of others we must say O Lorde we pray and beseech thée for saint Michael saint Gabriel saint Mary saint Peter saint Paul â—nd â—or all the saints and saintes of Paradise that thou do put them in full â—oye and perfect â—elicitie and that thâ—u â—aise vp their bodyes to eternall glorie Theophilus If our dâ—e examine well the greatest part of the prayers which the priestes make for the deade euen as they are written in their Messell and Breuiaries one shal be constrained â—o confesse that such prayers cannot be made in the name of others then of those whome they do inuocate and call vpon in their Letanyes and that they be of like condition Hillarius I haue heard the Cordeliers mocke at Frier Christofer which was one of their order and couent bâ—cause that he did sing the Masse of Requiem for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise But if he had knowen howe to defende his cause it had not béene without reasâ—n For he might haue verie wel alledged for his warrant the Memento of the
followe the example of Iesus Christ and his Prophetes and Apostles who haue alwayes taught those with whome they had to doe in a language that they coulde beste vnderstande For that cause was gyuen vnto the Apostles the gyfte of tongues for to preach vnto all people and Nations knowing that the language ought to serue to the matter and not the matter to the language Wherefore considering that some men doe write in Hebrewe some in Greeke some in Latin others in Almayne and in Flemish others in Italian and Spanish I haue also written in a language with which I am best acquainted and haue most familiaritie according to my byrth and natiuitie Although that the matters that I entreate off shoulde haue a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue and shoulde be vnto me more aduauntage For oftentimes I haue the matter ready that I néede not but to write them out of good Authours where I néede not to trauaile to translate the thinges in French the whiche is very harde and impossible especially vnto mée to sette them out wyth such grace and to interprete them so natiuely as they sound in their naturall language Hebrewe Greeke or Latin. For although I bée a poore Oratour in Latin I am not much better in french Wherefore although I doe not speake the language of Attica nor well beautified lyke a Retricion but that it happeneth oftentimes that I doe fall into my rude speache Or if I wander astraye in Fraunce and that I come agayne into the countrey I doe thincke that the fauourable Reader wyll well beare wyth such faultes and especially in the rymes and French verses which sometyme I mingle in these Dialogues following the example of the good Authours which haue willingly kept this custome to translate into verse after their owne language that whiche they alledge of the Poets which haue written it in an other language The which I haue done sometime bycause that I put in the margentes those Authours by the which I helpe my selfe for to discouer and vnhide better the abuses and superstitions to the ende that some men shoulde not thincke that I speake of the speakers of the Dialogues for the nonce and wythout iust occasion If ther be in my verses but little rime it sufficeth me so that it haue some reason For I do not make profession of Poetry it sufficeth me to tourne them grosly or plainely Besides that that I am an euill Oratour yet I am a worse Poet. Yet neuerthelesse I am fully certified that so many good mindes and wittes as Fraunce bringeth vp very able and experte both in Poetry and French prose shall haue none occasion to enuye mée nor to rebuke or finde faulte with my Poetry For they may very well iudge that I pretende not by my verses to haue the crowne of Baye and that I wyll not take from them their Science and name Also I hope that those vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more gyftes and grace to speake wyll consider to beare with my rude style as the Athenians who were the cummingest in all Greece both in doctrine and in language haue not despised the doctrine and language of the Philosopher Anacharsis notwithstandinge that hee was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation They must also consider whiche knowe the greatnesse of the countrey wherein I am I haue sometimes vsed expresly some woordes which shall not bée receyued of those which sludye in the finenesse of the French tongue but I doe the same for to condiscend to the rudenesse and capacitie of the most ignoraunt whiche better vnderstande those woordes taken from their language then others that are more fine and eloquent Furthermore although that there are manye good men which haue already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue wyth more hautye style and more elâ—quent then I can and of a more déeper and profounde knowledge Yet neuerthelesse I doe not thincke that those whiche knowe that Christian simplicitie and modestie is wyll neyther despyse my language nor my doctrine but that they wyll take it all in good parte consideringe that if Amos whiche was a shepeheard and many other Prophetes of base condition haue not vsed so high a style nor haue spoken so profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet Dauid or that great Oratour Esay of the royall linage and brought vp in the court they haue not therefore leaft off to bée Prophetes and to speake through Gods spirite and to profite very muche in hys Church whose style they haue vsed And althoughe that the Euangelisles and Apostles haue not written in such pompe of woordes nor haue not so much trauayled after the language of Demosthenes and Cicero yet wee cannot denye but that they haue more profited to all mankinde by theyr â—ude stile then the others by all their pompe of humayne eloquence wythout any comparison But if wée consider Gods woorkes wée shall knowe that the holye Ghost althoughe that hée doe not reiect the eloquence whych is one of his gyftes yet neuerthelesse hée delighteth himselfe more in the simplicitie of language for to declare better hys vertue and efficacie to the ende that we doe not attribute vnto humayne eloquence that which apperteineth vnto hym I speake this bicause of some delicate moâ—thes and curious of language which regarde not but the stile and the manner phrase of speaking without considering the sentence and that that one speaketh as though men doe write for the tongue and for to learne onely for to iangle and prattle as the Pyes and Iayes not rather for to instruct the spirite soule and the conscience They regarde but the flowers and care not for the fruite And which is worse one shall finde them of such corrupt iudgementes that they preferre the paynted flowers before those that growe naturally thinckeing to beautifie their language and to enrich the French tongue GOD knoweth what a cuttinge and manglinge they make and howe they mangle the Latine so that they doe speake neither Latine nor french But desiring to auoide and not to vse all that which they thincke to bée common to the ende they might bée estéemed the greater Oratours doe forge and inuent a newe language and doe despise the good French woordes for to steale awaye those from straunge tongues That curiositie and affection of language is the cause that many delite rather to reade bookes full of scoffinges fables lyes and of blasphemyes then those of diuinitie or of some good diuines and holy men And this vice is not onely in the French tongue but also in that Latine For ther are some which haue so great feare to defile their golden tongue and to embrew their goodly stile with the simplicitie basenesse of the Propheticall and Apostolicall language that they had rather to defile their soules vnderstandinges and spirites in foolishe curious bookes or in the writinges of the Panims and Idolaters
then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch Or if they desire some time to drincke of it that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus They doe but sucke in the water hastely as though they were afrayde to touch it and that there were in it Crocodiles They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets Oratours and Philosophers the which may serue vs to the glorie of God if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion But I can not allowe but greatly condempne those whiche altogeather gyue themselues vnto suche Authours or to others a greate deale worse and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and disciplines ought to serue and to whiche they ought to be preferred Shall we not iudge him a foole out of his wyt which will alwayes staye in his Grammer and in the principles and rules of the same and despyse the studye of other liberall Artes and of Philosophie and wyll in no wyse meddle wyth them nor exercise himselfe in speakinge nor yet in writinge fearinge to forget and lose those rules and groundes of Grammer Who wyll not iudge such a man to bee madde sith that the Grammer yea the Rethoricke whatsoeuer prayse that Cicero giueth vnto it And the Logicke also are not but as handmaydens and seruauntes vnto other disciplines the whiche men doe learne for to serue vnto them Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous schole masters which wee haue had which coulde reade vnto vs but doctrinall of Alexander and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time wythout letting vs at any time taste any good Authour insomuch that one shall neuer haue done but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne Those some vnto me not to differ much from them For notwithstanding that they doe reade better Authours and that they doe exercise themselues to speake and wryte better Yet Neuerthelesse I esteeme not all that which they doe no more then the Grammer of Alexander or as Grecismus and Roiolis and the Logicke of Tartaret and of other Sophisters except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende For otherwise whereto shall all their science and eloquence serue but to the Panims and people without God the which is more hurtfull and daungerous then profitable to the common wealth in hym which hath not the feare of God and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine And when they haue studyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language I thincke yet neuerthelesse that a man shall not finde many amonge them which can come vnto such perfection by the which they may approch so néere vnto Gicero as that seditious Catiline who was very eloquent But when they doe surmount Demosthenes may not wee rightly â—ay that of them which Eschines hath sayd of him comparing him vnto a flute which hath but the beak of bil the which is vnprofitable after that the necke is cut off What is there also in these héere but the tongue The which oftentimes hurteth many and profiteth fewe Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God and Iesus Christ his Sauiour and which confesseth him in his rude language and which honoureth him through his good life and conuersation to be preferred before all these greate Poets Orators and Philosophers who are altogether ignoraunt and which doe serue but the flesh the world and Sathan Prince of the same Are not they great Asses and beastes in comparison of him and yet worse For the Oxe knoweth his Lord and an Asse his Masters stall as sayth the Prophet the which those here which will bée counted for true Israelits Gods people and Christians wil not acknowledge nor serue hym dooing vnto him so much honour as the Oxe the Asse doe vnto their Masters How dare they esteeme themselues wyse beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God the which onely is the true knowledge for to bringe vs vnto euerlasting blessednesse in comparison of which all other which are called sciences are but mennes opinions errours and lyinges excepte they haue this for a guyde It is very harde to finde for such men mediciues proper to heale them and meate for to make them haue an appetite sith that they are so farre out of tast with the bread of lyfe and the heauenly Manna to the which they preferre the garlicke onyons the flesh and fishes of Aegypt For he that shall giue them such meate as they desire shall but encrease their griefe the greater And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it they will not tast of it Wherefore I leaue such to bée handeled of those which haue more cunninge then I and which can better helpe their disease There are others which differ but a little from these héere and which care not so muche of the language but they haue yet a greate vice common with the first that is that they delite not in reading any good matter graue and whiche toucheth Gods woorde and the health of their soules but vnto worldly thinges delectable to the flesh pernicious and hurtfull to the spirite and conscience And therefore although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language touching the matters of our Religion yet neuerthelesse that sorte of people cannot applye themselues to reade those good bookes and can take no taste of them bicause that their mouthe is not fitte for such meate and that they are to precious for them For the â—doriseraunt and sweete flowers smell not so swéete in the hogges noses as the myre and durte For that cause suche carnall men take more pleasure and delite in the bookes that speake their language But the thinge is more detestable to women whiche delite to reade â—ookes of bawdry and whoredome For they vnderstande them the better bycause they are of the earth and doe speake of earthlye matters and cannot comprehende the celestiall language bycause it is not naturall vnto them Nowe such bookes as they desire are not wanting vnto them For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worlâ—e which doe serue but for seoffing and testing and which haue no other care and applye their studie but to please men and to nourishe theyr vaine curiositie louinge better to speake pleasaunt thinges then salutary and to delyte the fleshe and the eares more then to edifie the conscience Yet thys was one of the causes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner then those whiche haue written before mée For I consider that many doe leaue off to reade them not onely bicause it is forbidden in many Countreys kingedomes and Segmories to reade good bookes whiche speake of GOD