and other cleargie orders they haue baptisme the Eucharist and all other things He proceedeth affirming that the church was in times past knowne by miracles but now they are either ended or els in greater number with false Christians yea he auerreth that a man might know by the liues of men which was the true Church but now Christians were worse then either hereticks or Ethnicks If this worke were written by an Arrian as some say yet there is no cause to condemne this excellent sentence prooued by so weightie reasons The eight reason Scriptures We haue finished by Gods assistance seuen Reasons some of which as the Doctour seemeth to graunt are nothing worth without Scripture and therefore he saith that they teach not any doctrine but such as is deriued out of the holy Bible If you would abide by this confession you would not hold so many vnwritten opinions as you doe For adoration of Images for the halfe communion for the Popes not erring for the lent fast with other points of Poperie what scripture is there It is one of your principles Cens Colon. that traditiones ecclesiae non scriptae credendae ac seruandae sunt vnwritten traditions are to be beleeued and kept Hence I conclude after this manner They which hold opinions by vnwritten traditions deriue not all their opinions out of the scriptures But the Papists hold some opinions by vnwritten traditions Ergo. But good M. Doctour are we driuen to denie certaine parts of Gods holy Bible for the maintaining of our opinions and are the Manichees our predecessours take heede least by auouching vntruths you doe vastare conscientiam make shipwracke of conscience If Luther reiected the epist of S. Iames what is that to vs Caietane will haue it to be minoris authoritatis quam caeteras Bell. lib. 1. cap. 17. 2. booke 23. of lesse authoritie then the other epistles Eusebius saith sciendum est eam esse adulterinam we must know that it is a bastard epistle Euseb 3.22 cap. Now I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which refuse bookes of Scripture frame that bible to their opinions But the Protestants refuse bookes of Scripture Ergo. I denie the assumption which is set downe without any proofe and for the disproofe of the same I will not content my selfe with a few fathers but will produce a cloud of witnesses that the Papists may see their proud bragge of fathers Origen at Eusebius speaketh thus Euseb hist 6. booke 24. Hand ignorandum fieret esse veteris testamenti libros sicut Hebraei tradunt viginti duos qui etiam numerus apudeos est literarum We must vnderstand that there are 22. bookes of the old Testament as the Hebrewes doe teach which also is the number of letters Hence I gather that if the Canonicall bookes answer the hebrew letters then there are but 22. otherwise there should be more then the letters are Melito numbreth the same bookes which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome as witnesseth Eusebius 4. book 25. Cyril of Ierusalem in his 4. catechisme exhorteth the Catechumenes to read 22. bookes but that he reckneth Baruck with Ieremie he reckneth the same which we doe and directly warneth vs vt cum Apocryphis nihil habeamus negotij that we haue nothing to doe with Apocryphal bookes for saith he multò prudentiores te religiosiores fuerint Apostoli primi Episcopi veritatis duces qui nobis eas tradiderunt the Apostles and first Bishops were wiser and more religious then thy selfe they deliuered these scriptures to vs. Leontius in his 2. action of sects agreeth with these authors saying that veteris scripturae libri sunt viginti duo there are 22. bookes of the old testament Innilius reiecteth the Machabees from diuine scripture quoniam apud Hebraeos super hac differentia recipiebantur libri Canonici sicut Hieronymus alijque testantur because with the Iewes the canonicall bookes were receiued with this difference as Ierome and other writers witnesse He reiecteth Iob and some other bookes which are Canonicall by his owne reason namely because they were of that authoritie with the Iewes Amphilochius differeth not from the aboue named writer after that he hath set downe the same number which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome which yet it may be but put in for verse because he reckneth but three of Salomon after I say he concludeth thus hic verissimus divinitus datarum est scripturarum Canon this is the most true Canon of the diuine scriptures Ruffinus in his exposition vpon the Creede saith that he will describe the Canonicall bookes of the olde testament which he doth after our order in England and acknowledgeth that non Canonicos libros legi voluerunt in ecclesiis sed non proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandaÌ„ they wil haue the books that are not Canonicall to be read in Churches but not to be aleadged to confirme a matter of faith I will not produce the testimonies of Hierome Epiphanius Nazianzen Athanasius and others because they are obvious to euery one neither will I conuince the Doctour by his owne writers as Caietan Hugo and Arias Montanus Iosephus is worthie to be heard who plainly teacheth that duo solum viginti libri fide digni esse creduntur Euseb 3. lib. hist â—0 onely 22. bookes are to be credited By this cloud of witnesses I hope Christian Reader thou maist see the vanitie of Papists who doe nothing but crepare patres patres crie the fathers they are on their side I returne the Argument They which adde bookes to diuine scriptures draw the holy Bible to their fancies But the Papists adde whole bookes to diuine scriptures Ergo Where he saith that the Catholikes follow the bible I will not stand vpon that famous corruption of the Hebrew psalter by an English Papist to iustifie their vulgar latin text but come to one place out of which they would gather purgatorie Where it is said that a certaine sinne shall not be forgiuen neither in this world Math. 11. nor in the world to come we expound it by Marke who saith it shall neuer be forgiuen the Papist saith Matthew must not be expouÌ„ded by Marke because he is shorter but is he not plainer How absurd is it to expound these words â—ell lib. 1. de into cap. 4. he hath neuer forgiuenes to this sense whereas to expound the words of Matthew by Marke hath an excellent construction Thus euery man may see who draw the scriptures to their fancies whether Papists or Protestants The 9. reason Councells Whether the Church of God hath euer bin accustomed when any heresie did spring vp therein to gather a Councell of Bishops Prelates and other learned men I will not stand to dispute If your meaning be M. Doctour that nothing is heresie but that which is condemned by a Councell Lib. 4. cont dâ—â—s epist Pelag. in fine I vtterly renounce your vaine conceit Let Augustine
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
of Papists it may not be tollerated for why may they not as well be called Petrians and therefore I say with Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In dic Christs I will not be named of men beeing borne of God In Psal 44. and with Augustine Sumus Christiani non Petriani we are Christians not Petrians I cannot let passe his ignorance in saying that all heretikes haue alwaies taken their names of some one who began that heresie For not to take exception against his speach by the first authors of heresie as Nestorius Pelagius euery meane diuine knoweth that many heretikes haue their names of their heresie not of their author as Apostolici Cathari and others If the Lutherans haue changed the word Catholike in the Creede draw your penne against them and not against the church of England But it is a perilous matter for some of our translations to say for an heretike a man that is the author of sects His owne men so translate the word heresie Act. 24. chap. 28. chap. A great matter to english a greeke word Thankes be to God that you haue no other cauills against our translations I hope such pelting will driue men from Poperie Your saying out of Hierome galleth your selues and prooueth you to be sectaries as beeing named Dominicans Franciscans Iesuits and with diuers other names Therfore please not your selues any longer with a bare name without the subiect matter for that is like a pearle in the snowt of a swine The 3. reason vnitie and consent Hauing answered two of the Doctors reasons I come to handle the third in which he vaunteth of vnitie after this manner The Catholike religion hath varietie of doctrine with diuersitie of manners yet euer kept vnitie in such a peaceable manner as neuer any disagreed in any point of doctrine Blush M. Doctor at this notorious vntruth I haue in my disswasiue from Poperie gathered 20. contradictions betwixt Papists in matters of faith and to giue you a tast of your vnitie I will set downe your harmonie about Antichrist Some Papists hold Mahomet to be Antichrist Bellarmine in his 3. booke de Rom. Pont. cap. 3. This is denied by other because say they Antichrist shall be one singular man Secondly some Papists teach that Antichrist shall arise of the tribe of Dan cap. 11. yet Bellarmine confesseth that this opinion is not certaine because no scripture conuinceth it Thirdly the Papists teach that Antichrist shall raigne but three yeares and an halfe yet Hentenius confuteth this opinion Fourthly some Papists teach that Antichrist shall vtterly extinguish the faith as I prooued before Bellarmine denieth this not without cause Fifthly the Rhemists say that it may well be that Antichrist shall sit at Rome Bellarmine will haue him to sit at Ierusalem I will not follow any more contradictions about this opinion but come to their vnitie in Idolatrie Catharine affirmeth the commandement which concerneth Images to be temporall and positiue is not this goodly diuinitie others denie it Caietan confoundeth an Idol and an Image Bellarmine cannot beare this doctrine Aquinas will haue the crosse of Christ to be worshipped with diuine honour others renounce Aquinas in this point Alphonsus de Castro counteth Serenus and Epiphanius enemies to Images Bellarmine confuteth Alphonsus his opinion Abulensis and Peresius teach that Images of God are not to be made Bellarmine like an Idolater alloweth Images of God himselfe Augustine speaketh plainly against this diuelish diuinitie Nulla Imago Dei coli debet nisi illa quae hoc est quod ipse nec ipsa pro illo Epist 1â—9 sed cum illo No image of God must be worshipped but that which is God and that not for God but with God By these contrarieties euery man may see the popish harmonie Now I reduce the Argument into a syllogisme Where vnitie is there is the Church But the Papists haue vnitie Ergo. The proposition and assumption are both false and whereas he would prooue the proposition out of the 4. of the Acts and 17. of S. Iohn we must know that an vnitie in true doctrine is there commended and praied for Si vultis saith Augustine vivere de spiritu sancto c â—6 serm de temp tenete charitatem amate veritatem desiderate vnitatem vt perveniatis ad aeternitatem If you will liue according to the holy spirit then imbrace loue make much of truth and desire vnitie that you may come to eternitie Vnitie therefore in veritie must bring vs to eternitie But in sadnes is there no Church where there are dissentions â— book tripar hist 12. chap. Themistius wrote to Valens that he should not be cruell to Christians for difference in Ecclesiasticall opinions for amongst the Pagans there were more then three hundred sects Will you M. Doctor cut off the Church of Corinth from the bodie of the Church because of dissentions What shall become of Paul and Barnabas Cyprian and Cornelius Epiphanius and Chrysostome with diuers others And to stay thy minde Christian Reader touching this point of dissentions I desire thee first to consider that all men haue not the same measure of the spirit and therefore there must needes be contentions God his gifts are diuers to one man he giueth greater knowledge then to another therefore Paul saith when perfection of knowledge commeth there shall be an vnitie in opinions which is not to be looked for in this vale of miserie Secondly vaine-glorie the mother of mischieuous contentions is not wholly driuen out of men that liue in the Church I would to God it were for then many broyles would haue an ende Maruell not then gentle Reader though there be varietie of opinions I might inlarge these reasons and annex moe but I desire breuitie The Doctor here to amplifie our diuisions without all conscience chargeth vs with the heresies of Anabaptists Adamites Striblerians and many other which we condemne to the pit of hell But for a testimonie of our vnitie let our heauenly harmonie of Confessions be read in which a man may see our consent to be greater then the Papists would wish The scornefull name of Parlimentarie religion I leaue to God to reuenge if Queene Marie might receiue the Pope by Parliament why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ And thus I retort the argument Where there are diuisions there is no Church But amongst Papists are diuisions Ergo. In the ende of this reason he concludeth with a manifest vntruth saying that all decrees of lawfull Councells and of Popes doe agree in points of doctrine one with another Good God! what dare not this man affirme I passe by Councells and come to Popes Pope Nicholas auoucheth that Baptisme may be giuen and ministred onely in the name of Christ which is a false opinion as Bellarmine himselfe confesseth Pope Pelagius contrariwise decreed that it ought to be ministred in the name of the blessed Trinitie Aquinas 3. par quaest 66. art 6. In
epist 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter Qui sit how commeth it to passe saith he that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope That I say nothing of Formosus doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another what should I speake of Innocentius and Coelestinus Pelagius and Gregories decrees one contrarie to another By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie The fourth reason conuersion of countries In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome beginneth with an vntruth saying that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ were first conuerted to his faith by such as either were precisely sent or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe not from Peter conuerted many countries That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe the scriptures are plaine in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith As the father hath sent me so send I you what can be more plaine Paul saith of himselfe that he was an Apostle neither of men nor by men but by Iesus Christ How many countries did Paul conuert Concerning this land I spake something before Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum eosque ad Scythias misit prouided men followers of the Apostles labours and sent them to the Scythians The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus whome Athanasius ordained Bishop as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem by a woman that was a captiue Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme They which take paines in conuersion of countries hold the true religion But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries ergo I denie the proposition and say to the Papists as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies Math. 23. woe be to you Papists for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made ye make him twofold more the child of hell Heretikes haue laboured to conuert or rather to peruert men Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 affirmeth that euill men shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and beeing deceiued The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum as witnes Theodoret and others writers As touching the conuersion of the west Indians if things be true that are reported Sadeel con are pos in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword If our Sauiour Christ had saide Goe kill all nations when he saide Goe teach all nations he had fitted the Papists humour What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion I know not but this I am sure of that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England But to returne to the Indies The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement Iuel 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate some worshipped the sunne some familiar deuills what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God Calvine not to speake of others read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare and preached aboue two hundred sermons Who conuerted England Scotland Ireland and other countries from Antichrist to Christ from the Masse to the Messias from Images to the seruice of the liuing God did not poore Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius and other Protestants the ministers of England labour in their owne charges preaching in season and out of season God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules in times past it was not so hodie proh dolor saith Aeneas Sylvius Lib. 1. de geâ—â— con Basil now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things Againe Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church speaketh thus Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam quà m decem solidorum Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements Thus then I returne the argument They which esteeme money more then the soules of men are not the true Church But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men Ergo. Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not neither am I priuie to the successe they had Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them the fault is not in the doctrine but in the men who resist the same I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance by the meanes of another though he be an vnpenitent person The Doctors rayling vpon Luther Calvin and Peter Martyr calling his wife fustilugges fitteth the spirit of a Papist If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues 1. Cor. â— I answer with Paul Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages and to wast paper But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth to spread abroad religion why are they then exiles and haue witnessed their religion with their blood In a word Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes then by conscience and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them The fifth reason largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers That the Church which the Messias was to plant must be dispersed throughout all nations and kingdomes as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed we acknowledge neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies I may well say of the Doctor as did
Aristippus of Dyonisius his liberalitie Tutò Dyonisius inquit liberalis est his enim qui multis indigent pauca mittit Platoni verò qui nihil accipit plurima Dyonisius saith Aristippus maintaineth all his liberalitie well enough for to the needie he sendeth fewe things but to Plato which lacketh nothing many gifts Euen so the Doctor in needelesse matters heapeth vp many testimonies but in matters of question he hath no proofe but bold assertions If he had prooued that these prophesies are verified in no religion but onely in the religion which now the Papists hold he had done well but hic labor hoc opus this is such paines as would make the Doctor sweat As the Prophets foretold the largenes of Christs religion 2. Thesâ— â— so Paul prophesied of an Apostasie from the same as the Rhemists confesse and as the same men write vpon the 12. of the Rev. where S. Iohn foresheweth that the Church shall flie into the wildernes that now in England The Church Catholike because it hath no publicke state or regiment nor open free exercise of functions may be said to be fled into the desart so say I of our Church in the raigne of Antichrist And thus I conclude As the Papists Church is now in England though not visible so was the Protestants in Antichrists raigne But the Papists Church is now in England Ergo. The proposition is manifest by S. Iohn who foretelleth the flight of the Church into the wildernes Let Reinerus speake Catal. test â—ec who was a popish inquisitour he saith that the poore men of Lyons were more pernitious to the Romish Church then all other sects for three causes first because it hath beene of longer continuance for some say that it hath endured since the time of Sylvester others say it hath endured since the Apostles time The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no land in which this sect doth not creepe The third cause is for that all other sects doe bring in an horrour with their heinousnes of their blasphemies against God This sect of the Leonists hath a great shewe of godlines because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the articles which are contained in the Creede they blaspheme and hate onely the Church of Rome This is the testimonie of a cruell enemie and persecutor of them whereby euery man may see the Church to haue continued maugre Antichrist These men are knowne to haue continued in Bohemia Calabria Piemont and other places Their faith is printed in the booke called Fasciculus rerum expetendarum where who listeth may read the same But now I reduce his argument into a syllogisme They which haue the largest scope are the true Church But the Papists haue the largest scope Ergo. The proposition beseemeth an Ethnicke better then a Christian might not the heathen haue made the same against Christ The Pharisies argue indeede after the same manner Ioh. 7. Doth any of the Rulers beleeue in Christ so the Papists say Doe any Popes Cardinalls embrace Luthers doctrine In the 1. King 22. there are foure hundred Prophets against Michaiah yet Michaiah had the truth In the third of Daniel three onely resisted the Kings edict Esa 1.9 The Prophet Esai affirmeth that except the Lord had reserued a remnant they had bin as Sodom and Gomorrah Elias complaineth that he was left alone In the daies of Achab the altar of God was remooued and an idolatrous altar by the high Priests consent was set vp 1. king 16. and chap. 17.19 it is said that Iudah did not keepe the Lords commandements but walked in the errours of Israel Likewise Manasses and Amon built an idolatrous altar 2. king 21.4 5. and 22. v. might not they haue made the same argument Lib. de bre vitae Well saith Seneca Non tam benè cum rebus humanis agitur vt meliora pluribus placeant argumentum pessimi turba est It is not so well with humane affaires that most men like the best things the multitude is an argument of the worst Bellarmine hath this ingenious confession Si sola vna provincia retineret veram fidem adhuc verè propriè diceretur Ecclesia Catholica If onely one Prouince should retaine the faith yet that Prouince should be the true Church Therefore largenesse of dominion is not a note of the true Church But it is worthie to be noted first that this Doctour reckneth the largenesse of the Romane religion but for a thousand yeares for space then of sixe hundred yeares our Church had large dominion antiquitie then is with vs. Verily if our Church was ample for sixe hundred yeares I make no doubt of our religion and indeede the largenesse which the Prophets foretold was verified of the Apostolicall Church and by consequent of ours Let the Scriptures iudge whether we teach the same doctrnie that the Apostles did or no. I would not haue the Doctour to thinke that for a thousand yeares we had no church for that we alwaies had a Church I prooued before out of their owne writers Images were reiected by many Bishops seauen hundred yeares after Christ Ministers were likewise married as I shewed before for a thousand yeares And not to name many other points of doctrine Bellarmine prooueth the seauen Sacraments out of Peter Lombard is not this goodly doctrine which can bring no better authors for it then the master of sentences Barnard denieth merits Bellarmine answereth that he did it of humilitie at sancti humiles esse debent non mendaces Saints must be humble not liars In the yeare of our Lord one thousand one hundred and seauen the poore men of Leodium prooued Pope Paschal to be Antichrist In epist ad Pas Hactenus interpretabar say they ideo veluisse Petrum per Babilonem significare Romam quia tunc temporis Roma confusa erat Idololatria omni spurcitie at nunc dolor meus interpretatur quod Petrus prophetico spiritu dicens ecclesiam in Babilone collectam praedicit confusionem dissentionis qua hodie scinditur ecclesia I was wont to interpret that Peter by Babylon would signifie Rome because Rome at that time was confused with idolatrie and filthinesse but now my sorrow doth interpret vnto me that Peter calling the Church gathered togither in Babylon foresaw by the spirit of prophesie the confusion of dissention wherewith the Church at this day is rent in pieces And in the yeare of our Lord 1240. Cranâ— lib. â— Met. 18. many preachers in high Germanie did freely preach against the Pope Crantzius a man who greatly fauoured the Pope saith thus of them Quidam pulsatis campanis conuocatis baronibus terrarum certaine ringing the bells and calling the Barons of the countries are affirmed to preach publikely that the Pope was an heretike his Bishops and Prelates Symonists and heretikes Bertrame eight hundred yeares after Christ was an enemie vnto
Transubstantiation but you haue purged him to your perpetuall shame as testifieth your Index expurgatorius the title is vt liber Bertrami how the booke of Bertrame beeing amended may be tolerated But let it be graunted that the truth of doctrine was not publike for many yeares yet might there be a Church For at the comming of our Sauiour Christ the Pharisies had the gouernement and were blinde guides yet was there a Church and a number of chosen people as Ioseph Marie Simon and Anna. In Elias time when religion was corrupt the Lord had thousands which neuer bowed their knees to Baal But I returne the argument Largenes of dominion is a note of the Church But for many hundred yeares after Christ our Church had largenes of dominion Ergo. Secondly the Doctor fearing least our Church should flourish and dilate it selfe affirmeth that the Church is now old to make her flourish in her old age is to make her a monster Verily we acknowledge that shee flourished in her young age if these titles of young and old may be attributed to her but shall not the Church flourish in her old age as you speake M. Doctour what then is become of largenes of dominion If largenes of dominion be a note of the true Church then it shall be alwaies ample and large Indeede thankes be to God our Church now is ample as testifie England Scotland Denmarke Suetia Saxonie Helvetia and other countries and therefore the Doctour varieth in this point But that Antichrist shall be reuealed and the Church increase it is plaine out of the 2. Thess 2. where Paul prophesieth that the Lord shall consume him with the spirit of his mouth This to be done we see it daily with our eyes for by the preaching of the Gospel Antichrist is continually lessened Moreouer in this reason the Doctour affirmeth that persecution of any moment is not against Papists but onely in England The persecution of Papists in England is for treason as their owne writings testifie The title of the booke is this Important coÌ„siderations which ought to mooue all true Catholikes to acknowledge that the proceedings of her Maiestie since the beginning of her highnes raigne haue bin both mild and mercifull The Rhemists are contrarie to this Doctour for they writing vpon the 20. of the Rev. affirme Catholikes to be persecuted not onely in England but also in Scotland Flaunders and other places thus well heretikes agree amongst themselues To be briefe the Papists are so persecuted that they are benè habiti well liking as all men know and haue affluentiam honorum store of goods But the Doctour desireth to be told whether against all learned Physitians and against all Lawyers one or two of later yeares are to be credited I answer if they haue the truth on their sides they are Might not Michaiah haue beene posed with this question who was but one against foure hundred prophets Did not Paphnutius stand vp in the Councell of Nice and teach that a heauie yoke should not be laid on those which were dedicated to the ministerie Here was one against that famous Councell This question might well haue beene demaunded of Eugenius who would not obey the Councell of Basill 1â—00 de gest conc Ba. Aeneas Silvius writeth thus Neque in Concilio dignitas patrum sed ratio spectanda est in a Councell the dignitie of men is not to be regarded but reasons And againe Non ergo cuiusvis Episcopi mendacium quamvis ditissimi veritati praeponam pauperis praesbyteri I will not preferre Bishops vntruths before an Elders truth though one be rich and the other very poore What should I speake of Athanasius condemned in the Councell of Millan Panormitane is plaine Whiâ—ak 34. p. cont Dur. Plus credendum est vel simplici Laico scripturam proferenti quà m toti simul Concilio A lay-man is more to be beleeued alleadging scripture then a whole Councell Hierome translated the scriptures according to the Hebrew whereas before the authoritie of the 70. Ann. 39â— interpreters was currant yet saith Sigebert praevaluit authoritas Hebraica veritatis the authoritie of the Hebrew truth preuailed Hieroms act was against inveteratum vsum Ecclesiae the auncient custome of the Church Whereas he calleth Luther a loose Apostata and M. Calvin a soare backt priest for Sodomie I doubt not but that for such slaunders of these men good men shall more and more abhorre poperie And for thy satisfying Christian Reader I desire thee to read that which Erasmus hath written concerning Luther and that which is printed by Beza concerning Calvins life Sodomie is too common among Papists as witnesseth Picus Mirandula in his oration to Leo the tenth in these words Sacrae aedes ac templa lenonibus ac calamytis commissa Churches and temples are committed to bauds and boies abused contrarie to nature With Picus agreeth Mantuan Sanctus ager scurris venerabilis ara cynaedis seruit honorandae divum Ganymedibus aedes The Church lands are giuen to common lesters the sacred altars allotted to wantons the temples of Saints to boies prouided for filthie lusts Lastly whereas he faith that if he should refuse the Catholike Romane religion his Ancetours would vse such speeches as these doest thou condemne all our doings doest thou send vs all to hell c. I answer that God hath not referred vs from his word to our fathers Walke not in the precepts of your fathers Ezek. 20. neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their Idols saith the Lord. We condemne not our fathers except they condemned theÌ„selues Dei iudicia occulia sed semper iusta Gods iudgements are secret but alwaies iust If our fathers held the foundation as I hope many did they might be saued Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of ignorance sinneth lesse then he to whome knowledge is reuealed I conclude with Cyprian Si solus Christus audiendus if onely Christ must be heard we must not regard what any before vs hath thought meete but what Christ himselfe hath done for a man must not follow custome but Gods truth And with Prudentius who answereth Symmachus his obiection Nobis sequendi sunt parentes we must follow our fathers frustrà igitur solitis prava observatio inhaeres in vaine dost thou cleaue to custome ô wicked obedience The sixth reason Miracles M. Doctour Noli illud tà m confidenter affirmare quod socij tui falsum esse docuerunt auouch not that so boldly which your fellowes haue taught to be false True miracles say you were neuer wrought but by them which were of the true religion for that they are done onely by the power of God The Rhemists vpon the 9. of Marke are of another minde for thus they write Miracles are wrought sometimes by the name of Iesus whatsoeuer the man be when it is for the proofe of truth or for the glorie of God insomuch that Iulian the Apostata himselfe did driue away deuills with
first that Augustine speaketh of ancient miracles for he saith tenet me authoritas miraculis inchoata authoritie begunne by miracles doth hold me in Secondly I answer that Augustine doth preferre truth before miracles in the same place he confesseth that veritas est illis omnibus praeponenda truth is to be preferred before all those things Now I returne the argument They which haue true miracles are the true Church But the Protestants haue true miracles Ergo. For the proofe of the assumption we produce the Apostles miracles by which that doctrine which we maintaine was confirmed many hundred yeares agoe If our doctrine be not conteined in the scriptures let it be disprooued by the same But because the Doctour saith out of Augustine that he is bound in the Church by the bond of miracles I would it might please him a little to listen vnto S. Augustine writing thus de Vni eccle cap. 16. Non dicat ideò verum esse quia illa illa mirabilia fecit Donatus vel Pontius c. Let no man say it is true because Donatus or Pontius hath done these or these miracles or because men at the memorie of the dead doe pray and are heard or because these or these things doe happen there or because this our brother or that our sister saw such a vision waking or dreamed such or such a vision sleeping In in the same cap. Augustine speaketh thus quaecunque talia such things whatsoeuer are to be approoued because they are done in the Catholike Church yet it is not made knowne by them Belsee his reports of Luther and Calvin we reiect and touching our Gospel it is not altogether without miracles in these daies your Idols are fallen quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit The world beleeuing whosoeuer seeketh for wonders that he might beleeue is himselfe a wonder Take heede therefore M. Doctour least you make your selfe a miracle that will not beleeue without miracles The 7. reason visions and the gift of prophesie Cytharaedus ridiculus chorda qui semper oberrat eadem This Doctour harpeth alwaies vpon one string he is not contented with Miracles but now he commeth to Visions and confidently affirmeth that visions and the gift of prophesie were neuer found to be but in the true Church yet Aquinas in his 2. 2. 172. quest art 6. teacheth that prophetae daemonum aliquando verum praedicant the deuills prophets sometimes foretell the truth yea he auoucheth that propheta daemonum non semper loquuntur ex revelatione daemonum sed interdum ex inspiratione divina that the deuills prophets did not alwaies speake by reuelation from the deuill but sometime by inspiration from God and this he prooueth by Balaam his example vnto whome the Lord spake as it is in the 22. of Numb The Sybilles as the Doctour himselfe confesseth prophesied for the confirmation of right religion yet were they Ethnicks and liued amongst them Who dare say that the Church were with the heathen because of the Sybilles But I draw this argument into a syllogisme They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the Church But the Papists haue visions and the gift of prophesie Ergo. Aquinas as you haue heard M. Doctour denieth your proposition and whereas you would prooue the same because S. Paul S. Peter and S. Iohn stand vpon Reuelations behold now your double follie First you thus conclude the Church had visions therefore it onely hath visions which is as good as if a man should conclude the Church teacheth the Trinitie ergo no heretikes teach the same Secondly the Church had visions therefore it shall alwaies haue visions who will graunt you this consequence S. Augustine saith 3. booke de bap cap. 10. that miracles were ad ecclesiae primordia dilatanda to enlarge the beginnings of the Church so were visions to last for a time I returne the argument They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the true Church But the Protestants haue visions Ergo they are the true Church The Assumption is prooued by S. Pauls Saint Peters and Saint Iohns visions our doctrine is the same with theirs Saint Iohn heard a voice from heauen saying Blessed are the dead for they rest from their labours so say we therfore there is no purgatorie paines for them after this life The Scriptures teach that the sufferings of Christ are a perfect and full satisfaction for our sinnes so say we and therefore there remaineth not any part of Gods iustice to be satisfied by vs. But let vs see what visions the Papists haue and what a dangerous thing it is to stand vpon visions Bellarmine in his 2. booke of purgatorie and 7. chap. alleadgeth a vision out of Beda to prooue besides hell purgatorie and heauen a fourth place namely pratum florentissimum dilucidissimum as it were a most goodly meadow And in the same booke and 4. chap. he sheweth that Dyonisius the Carthusian and Michael Baius by visions would prooue that the soules in purgatorie were not certen of their saluation which opinion he confuteth Thus you see out of your owne writers what credit is to be giuen to visions by such counterfaiting meanes we may prooue any thing I say therefore with Augustine Removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum vel portenta fallacium spirituum Away with these fained things of lying men or monsters of lying spirits And now M. Doctour to argue vpon your owne graunts both of miracles and visions You say that the heathen had prophesies to confirme right religion graunt you then that you haue some few which works both true miracles and see true visions it is not to confirme your erroneous doctrine but to confirme that truth of doctrine which is held in your Church for all them you are a corrupt Church yet there are some reliques of true doctrine remaining and so by sequele of your owne speech these things may come to passe to confirme that true doctrine which is amōgst you Heretikes haue held some true opinions that there heresies might be the better bolstered out You hold the Trinitie and some other points of religion it may be then that if there be any miracles or visions amongst you it is to confirme the reliques of that truth which remaineth with you Thus I haue argued vpon your owne wordes and graunt But for my part I hold with Chrysostome 49. hom in op◠imper that nunc nulla probatio esse potest vorae ecclesiae there can be now no proofe of the true Church but onely by the Scriptures He giueth a reason of his speach quia saith he qua propria sunt in veritate ca hareses habent in schismate habent ecclesias habent scripturas diuinas habent Episcopos caeterosque ordines clericorum habent baptismum habent Eucharistiam caeteraque omnia because those things which are peculiar to truth heresies haue in their schisme they haue Churches they haue Scriptures they haue Bishoppes
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
Symonaicè Papatu Romano inuaso cum esset rudit literarum alterum ad vices Ecclesiastici officij exequendas see◠Papam consecrari fecit Bennet getting the Popedome by symony seeing he was vnlearned caused another Pope to be consecrated with him to doe ecclesiasticall duties If I should repeat Popes arguments I might wast paper touching monkes they were so vnlearned that it was growne a prouerbe monacho indoctior more vnlearned then a monke Doctor Fulke in Smith of Bishops Erasmus said that only England had learned Bishops Bellarmine defendeth their latine translation because in a councell it may come to passe that few vnderstand Greeke or Hebrew thus ignorance must serue their turnes when it pleaseth them the Papists plead for learning and yet ignorance must be an argument to defend their translatiō of the bible The Rhemists also defend their vnlearned papists as it is to be seene in their annotation vpon the 1. Epist of Tim. 5. v. Who would now thinke that these mē should vaunte of learning the papists were so learned that they deriue the word articles of actans many such strange notations might I shew Aquin. 2.2 if I delighted in this trash Ludouicus Viues faith that they which were of the Dominican order nec latine sciunt neither know latine Praefat in com d◠Ciuit. dei neither haue attained to any good authour beeing nourished and drowned vp to the eares in the sermons of Dormi secure yea he saith that saeculum iam est literis excultissimum now the world is exceeding learned iudge then what it was heretofore but that Christian reader thou maist see that this doctor eareth not how he extolleth the papists and disgraceth the protestants attend vnto his wordes I pray you saith he what a learned clergie was their in Queene Maries time in respect of these poore creatures that occupie nowe their prebends and sit in the sunneshine of their newe pretended Gospell with their wiues and children round about them Were not one Tonstal one Watson one Christopherson for learning one Fecknam one Gardiner one White for wisdome and learning togither able to set to schoole all your ruffled Cleargie at this day I liued not in Queene Maries time to see the learned Cleargie that then was neither will I detract any thing from the men here named but this I say that one Peter Martyr hath aboundantly answered Gardiner yea I dare say reuerend Iuell Grindal Pilkington Whitgift Hutton Cooper Pears Matthew Bilson M. Humfrey M. Fulke M. Whitakers with diuers others were able ora Papistarum obthurare to stoppe the Papists mouthes And concerning the Cleargie that now is for learning let those that were aliue in Queene Maries time iudge thankes be to God it is knowne that knowledge aboundeth now farre more then euer it did in those times The Priest in the daies of poperie is not forgotten that read Rundit for respondit and bunpzas for baptizas Concerning our pelting obiections taken out of Caluin and Beza I say that if we should dispute so peltingly as the papists we were worthy to be hissed at I will set downe some popish arguments There are seauen deadly sinnes Bellar. lib. 2. de Lap. cap. 26. ergo saith the papist there are seauen Sacraments Againe the number of seauen is mysticall ergo there are seauen Sacraments I will not say what learned men euer broached such conclusions but I come to other arguments the wise men came to adore Christ ergo we may adore holy persons places and things such shameles collections are fit for Papists Dureus prooueth that the Iewes did inuocate Saints because they thought that our Sauiour Christ called vpō Elias whē he cried Heli Heli what admirable learned men are the Papists I might fill many sheetes with such popish arguments but I leaue them and come to schoole diuinitie the Catholike diuines saith the Doctor teach in their schooles more exactly all things which a man may knowe in this life of God almightie of his perfection goodnesse Infinitie c. which the protestants neuer beate their branes about beeing so much occupied about woeing wenching and wiuing taking vpon them to be Doctors of diuinitie and husbands also The marriage of ministers troubleth the Doctor very much for he harpeth euer vpon this string but he cannot disgrace married mē except he doeth disgrace the Apostles who as I prooued were married And if the Doctor had read that same famous learned protestant Zanchy he would neuer haue written as he hath for Zanchie hath written of Gods attributes of the Trinitie and of the Creation so as I feare few papists can doe the like But as for the schoolemen they haue defiled Diuinitie with idle questions Erasmus hath set downe many of them as whether God can prohibit euery good thing whether he can make the world better thē he did whether he can make of a harlotte a virging whether the Ideas of all things are in Gods minde or noe whether the Pope may abrogate the Apostles decrees whether he can establish any thing that fighteth with the Gospell whether he can commaund Angels or take away purgatorie These questions with many moe hath Erasmus witnessed to be disputed amongst papists where you say M. Doctor that if any Protestant should appeare in Catholike schooles he durst not once open his mouth in matters of learning you still continue your rayling spirit and as I hope disgrace your selfe more then you are able to doe the Protestants learning I will name you some that durst shew their faces in any popish schoole both for knowledge in tongues and arts Iunius and Tremellius for learning in diuinitie may be matched with any Papist and for arts what say you M. Doctor to Ramus whose learning the world can witnes But say you this grosse ignorance of these new Gospellers is the cause that people doe remaine vtterly void of the knowledge of mysteries which they are bound to beleeue vpon paine of damnation If you meane popish mysteries I answer the people are not bound to know them And what ignorance you keepe the people in your practise sheweth who take from them the Scriptures which are the key of knowledge They must not read the Scriptures because holy things must not be giuen to dogges they must haue their seruice in latin and be taught by Images which you call Lay mens books Yea your doctrine of vnfolden faith that a simple man must beleeue as the Church beleeueth may testifie what knowledge the Papists require in the people I will not speake of your dumme ministers which cannot barke it is well knowne that your priests haue bin idols and therefore the people in poperie could be little better And indeede to me it is no small confirmation of the truth that the Protestants require such knowledge in the people whereas Papists rather hold them in ignorance Not to be tedious Hierom of Prage his learning is commended by Papists themselues and schoole diuinitie is condemned by Langius
doubt not but his lawe is now ouerthrowne Palingenius describeth at large the notorious corruption of the Romane Cleargie Sed tua precipuè non intrent limina quisquam Frater vel Monachus vel quauis leg◠sacerdos Hos fuge pestis enìm nulla hac ìmmanìor hì sunt Fax hemiuum fons stultitiae sentina malorum Agnorum sub pelle lupi mercede colentes Non pietate Deum falsa sub imagine recti Decipiunt stolidos ac relligionis in vmbra Mille actus vetitos ac mille piacula condunt Raptores maechi puerorum corruptores luxuriae atque gulae famuli caelestia vendunt Hos impostores igitur vulpesque dolosas Pelle procul Let no Frier Monke or Priest come within thy dores take heed of them no greater mischeife can be these are the dregges of men the fountaines of folly the sinckes of sinne wolues vnder lamb skinnes seruing god for reward not for deuotion deceiuing the simple with a false shewe of honestie and vnder the shaddowe of religion hiding a thousand vnlawfull actes a thousand hainous offences committers of rapes fornicators abusers of boyes slaues of gluttonie and luxurie they sell heauenly things these impostors and craftie foxes chase farre from thee It grieueth me to rake the dunghill of these loathsome Papists liues yet if these testimonies will not suffice heare Bernard Quià tam notum saeculis Lib. 4. ad Euge. quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum gens insueta paci tumultui assueta What hath beene so famous as the frowardnesse and the haughtinesse of the Romans a nation not acquainted with peace accustomed to tumults I am sparing in his testimonies because I produced one of them before Pope Adrian confessed as I haue shewed that all mischeife came from Rome I let passe the reformation of the Cleargie by Petrus de Alliac◠Picus Mirandula thus writeth Inorat ad Leo. Apud plerosque religionis nostrae primores aut nullus aut certe exiguus Dei cultus nulla bene vinendi ratio atque institutio nullus pudor nulla modestia nulla iustitia Amongest the cheife of our religion there is no seruice of God at all or very small no course of liuing wel no modestie no iustice Read his oration vnto Leo the 10. Christian reader if thou wilt see the monstrous liues of Papists Antonius Cornelius saith to the Cleargie of Colon that non decet tot scorta alere it is an vnseemely thing to nourish so many whores What should I speake of Nicholaus Clemanges his booke written of the corrupt state of the Church It would make a man wonder to see the wofull estate of those times Gildas his complaint of the nobilitie and laitie of England is lamentable Tom. 5. he saith that there was not onely fornication but omnia vitia quae humanae naturae accidere solent All vices which could happen vnto man and concerning the Cleargie he testifieth that it had sacerdotes multos impudentes Many impudent priests wolues readie to deuoure the soules of men The reading of his inuectiues hath not a little affected me for to behold what things he hath written would drawe teares out of a hard heart Master Harding calleth stewes a necessarie euill In 41◠O notorious wickednesse I am loath to shewe howe some Papists haue written that no man is to be deposed for fornication except he continue in it I onely say with Mantuan Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum you that wish to liue godly depart from Rome all things are there suffered saue godlinesse Nowe I reduce your reason into a syllogisme They which haue holinesse of life are the true Church But the Papists haue holinesse of life ergo I answer to the proposition that there may be externall holines in a false religion and so by consequent it is false for the truth of the assumption let the authors before cited determine the same Augustine opposeth to the continencie of th◠Manichees the cōtinencie of Monkes vpon which Erasmus hath this note vtinam mundus nunc haberet tales I would the world had such nowe by which speech he sheweth what popish monkes were concerning the liues of protestants I would that all which are professors were expressers My purpose is not to defend the loosenes of their actions for my part I thinke that these loose liuers are tanquam materia prima as fit to receiue popery as any other religion I say therfore with Augustine Lib. 2. de mo Man cap. 34. Nolite consectari turbas imperitorum qui vel in ipsa religione superstitiosi sunt vel ita libidiuibus dediti vt obliti sunt quicquid promiserunt Doe Seeke not after the rude multitude which are either superstitious in religion or so giuen to lusts that they haue forgotten their promise to God but touching the true professors of the Gospel they shall be found in trial alwaies as honest as papists where you say that loosenes issueth out of the bowells of our doctrine and that our ministers are all naught I doubt not but that God wil reward you accordingly for these your slanderous wordes 2. Cor. 10.18 Paul saith not he which commendeth him selfe is approued but he which God commendeth We care not for your commendations Master Doctor we desire to approoue our selues vnto God it is your Doctrine that admitteth loosenes of life as I haue shewed and now I will make it more plaine The Popes pardons are a most licentious doctrine Iohannes Papa tertius vicesimus plenariam peccatorum remissionem indulsit his qui ad tuendā ecclesiam arma induerant pope Iohn the 23. gaue a full pardon of sinnes to those that tooke armes to defend the Church Who would not commit adulterie and other sinnes if the pope can giue him a pardon of all his sinnes for taking so small paines as to defend the Church Pope Boniface as it is to be seene in his Bull giues plenissima veniam peccatorum a most full pardon of all sinnes surely if the pope for money will giue such pardon he may haue catholikes good store The doctrine of vowes is also a sinfull doctrine as the wolrd can testifie and to what end tendeth the popes forbidding of more degres in marriage then God hath and dispencing with those which God hath forbidden but to maintaine couetousnes cōcerning the bloody tragedies raised in Fraūce although I loue not to meddle with such matters yet knowe Christian reader that those of the reformed religion in taking armes to defend the lawes and liberties of their countrie against priuate persons haue done nothing but in the Kings seruice The bloodie actes of Papists are notorious to the world The rest of the Doctors railing in this chapter is not worthy any aunswer They pray forsooth whilest our ministers play they fast whilest we feast Againe saith he are not some of them hanged for robberies for rapes imprisoned for sorcerie and for
his minde at his death it had beene something but seeing he continued constant against the Popish doctrine it is a sure argument of his setled minde against that religion although he could not see all errours at the first Maruaile not then M. Doctor though by little and little he taught against your erroneous doctrines Augustine saith that nemo nisi imprudens quia mea errata reprehendo Lib. 1. Retract me audebit repreheÌ„dere No man that is wise wil find fault with me because I finde fault with my selfe Touching the alteration of the Communion booke we haue made no great alteration these fourtie yeares of it And yet knowe we M. Doctor that ceremonies and matters of indifferencie may be changed so oft as the Church shall see cause But say you who so doeth obserue daiely the order thereof is a cold Protestant or an Atheist for his labour This sauoureth of your accustomed railing and therefore deserueth no answere As for the communion in leauened or vnleauened bread heare your angelicall Doctor Thomas non est de necessitate Sacraments Tertia Pâ— 74. art 4. quod sit azimus vel fermentatus panis quia in vtroque confici potest conueniens autem est vt vnusquisque seruet ritum suae Ecclesia It is not of the necessitie of the Sacrament that it should be either vnleauened or leauened bread but it is conuenient that euery man obserue the rite of his church in the celebration of the Sacrament That some in stead of wine take in the communion nappie ale it may be true in Papists but I knowe no protesants that doe it and as for placing the Communion table and praying with a mans face either towards the south or north be matters of indifferencie Walfridus Strabo writeth of this point thus Vnusquisque suâ— sensu abundet Let euery man abound in his owne sense Yea he sheweth that the altars did not looke all one way but there followeth a great matter concerning reuerend Iewel who first gloried that Christs flocke was little but afterwards vaunted much that our doctrine must needes be true because it was spread so largely As though this reuerend man might not auouch Christs flocke to be sometimes little See Sâ—câ— in his 5. booke and sometimes to be large But if this be such inconstancy I pray you learne M. Doctor that your selues were woont to prooue you to be the Church because of vniuersalitie But nowe your Rhemists seeing Antichrists kingdome lessended will needs prooue your selues the Church vpon the 20. of the â—eueâ— because of the small number Thus is vnconstancie turned vpon your owne heades for indeed it seemeth that you care not what you write to discharge the Pope from beeing Antichrist The same Rhemists will one while haue the reuolt of which Paul speaketh 2. Thessal 2. chap. to be vnderstood from the Romane Empire immediately they say it is very like to be from the Romane Church O admirable constancie What should I examplifie your inconstancie howe Saints heare our praier one whiles they heare them this way another whiles that way These you may read in Bellarmine himselfe the constancie of worshipping of your Images is vncoÌ„stant as I can prooue vnto you Luther his change of opinions I haue answered before the old prouerb may heare fitly be vsed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no one man seeth all things and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the second cogitations are best I will requite the Duke of Saxonie his speech with another it is reported saith Gryneus that he should say Although I am not ignorant that there haue both errours and abuses crept into the Church yet I will not imbrace that Gospel which Luther preacheth Thus the man as I thinke with whose saying you ende your chapter M. Doctor hath done you more harme then good The 18. reason False Prophets and teachers As the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe foretolde that in the later daies there should come false Prophets so we find it by experience Now let vs see whether the notes of false Prophets agree to your selues or vnto vs. To prooue that they agree vnto vs you frame this reason They which come vnsent are false prophets But the Protestants come vnsent ergo The assumption is prooued because we haue neither ordinary or extraordinarie callings Extraordinarâ—e calling we haue none because we worke no miracles that we haue no ordinarie calling it is plaine I answer that Luther Zuinglius and some others were ordained Elders by your selues And therefore they were called ordinarily According to your calling if they were Elders they might preach true doctrine for I hope you ordained not them to preach false doctrine If they lost their ordination because they renounced poperie then haue you lost yours much more because you haue renounced Christs doctrine But I thinke you will not say that they lost their ordination because of your indelible character the Sacraments which imprint this cannot be repealed one of which you make Orders But I would not haue you to thinke that we esteeme so much of your calling as that we regard it beeing corrupt The wicked asked Christ for his authoritie Mat. 21. He that preacheth the Apostles doctrine hath authoritie enough the estate of this church beeing corrupted so that he cannot haue that calling which he would He that is sent to preach may not hold his tongue and tarrie till your Lord the Pope and his mitred fathers can inteÌ„d to consent But you require miracles I answer that Iohn Bapt. did no miracle Thom. 3. 3â— quaest art 2. resp ad 2. giueth this reason Si Iohannes signa fecisset homines ex aequâ— Iohanni Christo attendissent If Iohn had done any miracles men would haue equally attended to him and to Christ It is sufficient that our doctrine is confirmed by Christs miracles Further M. Doctor our preachers were called by the Christian Magistrates whose allowance they had which to be warrantable your selues cannot denie But why doe I followe this point any further Coster a papist confesseth that Quanquam plerique haereticorum Episcopi presbyteri doctores ex ordine munus officium docendi acceperunt nulli tamen facultas data est noua decreta fabricandi sed hoc tantùm candidè sincerè tradendi quod ei qui misit probatur Although many Bishops Elders and Doctors of haeretickes haue receiued orderly the dutie to teach yet to no man is power giuen to make newe opinions but sincerely to deliuer that which is approoued vnto him that sent him Wherefore you reiect our calling prooue that we coyned newe opinions Eusâ—b l. 6. 1â— cap. Origen taught before he was ordained Elder when the Church was sound Demetrius reprehended Alexander Bishop of Hierusalem and Theodistus of Caesarea for suffering him so to doe but they defend themselues and shewe that it may be done ad commodandum fratribus to profit the brethren If this might be done in Constituta Ecclesia in an
be regarded we denie not M. Doctor The heathen haue condemned ingratitude for a heynous sinne Beneficii memoriam qui recipit habere debet he that receiueth a benefit ought to remember it The Athenians made a lawe that the vnthankefull person might be sued as well as a debter this is so cleere as that no man can denie it and I would it were as easie to perswade vnto thankefulnesse as it is to speake of it But I feare me it happeneth to the papist as it doth to the vsurer who speaketh against vsurie that he may practise it without suspition for the papist inueyeth against ingratitude and vnthankefulnesse least he should be argued of it For this is to forget God to breake his lawes The Iewes in the 32. of Deut. are charged to haue forgotten God and Dauid in the 106. psalme saith they made a calfe in Horeb worshipped the goldeÌ„ image they forgat God their Sauiour which had done great things in Egypt Yet did the Iewes make an image vnto God Exod. 32. and worshipped God in the Image for Aaron proclaimed an holy day vnto the Lord and can any man imagine that Aaron should think an idol to be that God which brought the people out of Egypt He that was to be high Priest would he thinke the worke of his hands to be God Thus you with the Iewes in the very things which you say put you in remeÌ„brance of God forget God Nowe I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They that keepe feasts and Images to put them in remembrance of God are most mindfull of him But so doe the Papists and not Protestants ergo I denie the proposition and say that this outward pompe is fit for the Whore of Babylon We can remember god without these externall rites The preaching of the Gospel crucifieth Christ before our eies the Sacraments ordained of God himselfe doe liuely set forth Christ and the blessings of God within and without vs and of euery side of vs are so many that men can hardly forget him vnlesse they forget the earth that beareth them the heauens that couer them the day that guideth them and the night that giueth them rest But that M. Doctor you may see howe well in this obiection you agree with the heathen remember that Celsus obiecting to the Church the want of feasts is answered by Origen Festum est facere officium a feast is to doe a dutie Origen numbreth the feasts of Christians to be the Lords day Easter and Pentecost Hereby men may see what cause we haue to renounce poperie which taketh part with the heathens in their obiections Socrates in his 5. booke and 22. chapter dischargeth festiuall daies of the Apostles institution Apostolis propositum fuit non vt leges de festis diebus sancirent sed vt rectè viuendi rationis pietatis nobis authores essent The Apostles purpose was not to make lawes of feasts but to be authors of pietie and of godly life Erasmus vpon the 10. of Math. writeth thus Aetas Hieronimi praeter diem dominicum paucissima nouerat festa nunc feriarum neque finis neque modus quae cum primitus ad pietatis vacationem pauca essent institutae nunc ad scelerum exclusionem tolli debebant nisi sacerdotum auaritia suis rebus consuleret potius quam verae religioni Hieromes age besides the Lords day knewe fewe feasts nowe there is no ende nor measure of holidaies which were first instituted but fewe for pietie but now to exclude vice they ought to be taken away but that the couetous priestes doe rather prouide for themselues then for true religion The originall of your feasts may be read in Fascicul Temp. and others But I haue spoken of these feasts in another booke and therefore I will not make any longer discourse of them By these testimonies euery one may see what moment the obiection of feasts hath Touching Organs they were instituted 600. Lib. 1. de yeares after Christ as Bellarmine confesseth shall we thinke that Gods Church forgot him so long a time because it had no Organs But if we will see whence this outward pompe had her beginning let Bellarmine speake lib. 4. de Eu. cap. 4. Creuit honor sanctissimi sacramenti deuotione interna decrescente The honour of the Sacrament grewe when inward deuotion ceased If people then haue inward pietie and godlinesse these outward ornaments are needlesse Thus Bellarmine dischargeth vs of vnthankefulnesse to God and in fewe wordes giueth the reason of popish pompe As for breaking of popish images in Churches and Crosses in high waies we hold it lawefull to destroy Idolatrie Epiphannius when he sawe a picture in the Church brake it and saith it is an horrible wickednesse and a sinne not to be suffered It is pretty that the Doctor compares temples without images to â—arnes withouâ— haâ— as hay is fit for beasts so are Images fit for beastly men by his comparison for any man to set vp any picture in the Church of Christians yet the Papists store all their temples each corner of them with painted and carued images as though without them religion were nothing worth But M. D. I desire to knowe how the christians remembred Christ when they had noe temples at all you say that our Churches are like barnes which men knowe to be a vntruth yet the auncient christians had noe temple at all as Bellarmine confesseth lib 3. de Rom. Pont. cap. 13. Did they forget Christ when they praied in priuate families take heed least you disgrace not the auncient christians as well as the Protestants Acams when he was accused for selling of holy vessells to the vse of the poore answered that Deus noster nec disscis nec calicibus eget quia non comedit nec bibit our God needeth not cuppes because he neither eateth nor drinketh soe say I our God needeth not your goulden Images and ornaments which indeede distract mens mindes praying doe not increase deuotion Lactantius in his 2. booke and 4. chap. speaketh against the heathen after this manner In vaine doe men adorne Gods with gould and pearles as if they could take any pleasure in these things after he sheweth out of Persius that God delighteth in Iustice and in holy soules so say I to the Papists God requireth not Images and festiuall daies at your handes but he desireth inward holines Now Christian reader marke the Doctors follies in this chapter The first is this God commanded the Iewes many feastes all which were obserued to himselfe ergo Christians may haue feastes dedicate vnto Saints What a pitifull conclusion is this as though the Church might doe whatsoeuer God doth Yea what a consequent is this God ordained feastes vnto himselfe therefore the Romane Church may ordeyne feasts vnto Saints These arguments hange together like ropes of sande Secondly he coÌ„fesseth that parrish churches were dedicated to saints which is flat Idolatrie for onely God must haue a