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A85314 Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1652 (1652) Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624 107,263 123

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mutuò_fw-la beza_n so_o piscator_fw-la so_o zanchy_a when_o drunkard_n be_v full_a of_o wine_n than_o they_o begin_v to_o sing_v their_o song_n say_v he_o so_o christian_n fill_v with_o this_o wine_n have_v these_o spiritual_a song_n psalm_n etc._n etc._n to_o sing_v for_o the_o difference_n between_o these_o see_v our_o english_a annotation_n or_o hiero._n in_o loc._n several_a objection_n be_v here_o make_v which_o i_o shall_v not_o study_v to_o answer_v only_o in_o a_o word_n 1_o they_o say_v the_o text_n do_v not_o say_v sing_v one_o to_o another_o but_o speak_v one_o to_o another_o the_o psalm_n dwell_v in_o their_o heart_n they_o be_v to_o dispense_v they_o in_o way_n of_o teach_v but_o as_o for_o sing_v he_o make_v no_o mention_n of_o that_o until_o he_o come_v to_o teach_v they_o the_o manner_n of_o dispense_n the_o word_n of_o christ_n a_o dark_n expression_n unto_o god_n in_o the_o end_n of_o the_o verse_n and_o that_o be_v make_v melody_n in_o the_o heart_n master_n cotton_n answer_v with_o a_o grave_a reproof_n that_o man_n shall_v rather_o bow_v their_o judgement_n and_o practice_n to_o scripture_n language_n then_o bow_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o scripture_n to_o their_o own_o conception_n against_o the_o language_n of_o the_o scripture_n for_o say_v he_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o speak_v one_o to_o another_o in_o psalm_n and_o hymn_n and_o spiritual_a song_n as_o be_v do_v in_o sing_v and_o another_o thing_n to_o teach_v one_o another_o out_o of_o psalm_n etc._n etc._n it_o be_v true_a they_o be_v to_o teach_v one_o another_o out_o of_o the_o psalm_n and_o the_o scope_n of_o paul_n will_v reach_v that_o but_o if_o he_o have_v mean_v only_o so_o he_o will_v not_o have_v say_v speak_v you_o one_o to_o another_o in_o psalm_n but_o out_o of_o the_o psalm_n as_o be_v the_o scripture_n phrase_n etc._n etc._n 2_o to_o i_o it_o seem_v strange_a if_o that_o be_v all_o paul_n meaning_n why_o shall_v paul_n mention_v only_o those_o part_n of_o the_o word_n 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thing_n can_v be_v make_v out_o of_o what_o the_o objector_n say_v it_o may_v possible_o be_v this_o that_o paul_n will_v have_v they_o teach_v one_o another_o the_o sense_n and_o scope_n of_o a_o psalm_n that_o all_o may_v understand_v the_o meaning_n of_o the_o psalm_n they_o sing_v as_o be_v the_o practice_n of_o some_o minister_n if_o they_o be_v to_o sing_v a_o psalm_n that_o be_v more_o dark_a then_o in_o a_o few_o word_n they_o give_v the_o people_n to_o understand_v the_o meaning_n of_o the_o psalm_n they_o sing_v and_o so_o sing_v with_o understanding_n 1_o cor._n 14_o 15._o i_o say_v why_o may_v not_o this_o be_v something_o of_o the_o meaning_n i_o leave_v it_o to_o more_o able_a head_n to_o judge_v but_o this_o do_v not_o exclude_v sing_v but_o whereas_o he_o conceive_v sing_n shall_v be_v only_o the_o make_v melody_n in_o the_o heart_n etc._n hieron_n in_o colos_n 3._o nusquam_fw-la legimus_fw-la aliquem_fw-la sine_fw-la voce_fw-la cantasse_fw-la unde_fw-la necesse_fw-la est_fw-la hic_fw-la in_o cord_n ex_fw-la cord_n intelligi_fw-la etc._n etc._n i_o pray_v let_v he_o hear_v what_o a_o old_a commentator_n say_v long_o ago_o upon_o the_o word_n we_o read_v not_o where_o that_o any_o one_o sing_v without_o a_o voice_n wherefore_o it_o be_v necessary_a that_o in_o the_o heart_n here_o he_o understand_v from_o the_o heart_n viz._n that_o we_o sing_v not_o only_o with_o the_o mouth_n but_o with_o the_o heart_n so_o beza_n in_o your_o heart_n i._n e._n serio_n cordis_fw-la affectu_fw-la non_fw-la autem_fw-la linguâ_fw-la duntaxat_fw-la neque_fw-la enim_fw-la in_o cord_n idem_fw-la hic_fw-la declarat_fw-la atque_fw-la intus_fw-la &_o apud_fw-la se_fw-la cum_fw-la mentio_fw-la fiat_fw-la canendi_fw-la in_o caetu_fw-la so_o other_o divine_n as_o calvin_n zanchy_a etc._n etc._n who_o i_o forbear_v to_o name_n the_o same_o text_n also_o afford_v a_o good_a ground_n for_o sing_v david_n psalm_n with_o other_o spiritual_a song_n record_v in_o scripture_n or_o else_o i_o desire_v they_o to_o give_v i_o a_o reason_n why_o paul_n shall_v direct_v we_o to_o the_o very_a title_n of_o david_n psalm_n and_o yet_o not_o mean_a david_n psalm_n any_o one_o that_o have_v the_o least_o taste_n of_o the_o hebrew_n language_n know_v this_o some_o of_o they_o be_v call_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d psalm_n the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v use_v about_o forty_o time_n in_o david_n psalm_n i_o do_v not_o stand_v upon_o the_o exact_a number_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d hymn_n the_o book_n of_o david_n psalm_n be_v name_v by_o this_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d so_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d spiritual_a song_n 15._o see_v buxto_n concord_n exod._n 15._o this_o be_v frequent_a in_o david_n psalm_n also_o deborah_n use_v this_o word_n judg._n 5.12_o so_o now_o it_o seem_v strange_a that_o paul_n shall_v point_v we_o to_o these_o and_o yet_o we_o must_v not_o sing_v they_o which_o be_v sing_v before_o the_o three_o ground_n that_o move_v i_o be_v the_o example_n i_o find_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n of_o christ_n himself_o with_o his_o apostle_n matth._n 26.30_o they_o sing_v a_o hymn_n he_o do_v not_o sing_v it_o between_o the_o passeover_n and_o the_o institution_n of_o the_o supper_n as_o be_v a_o typical_a thing_n and_o so_o let_v it_o be_v join_v to_o the_o passeover_n as_o the_o jew_n do_v but_o after_o he_o have_v institute_v that_o ordinance_n which_o must_v last_v to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o world_n and_o they_o receive_v the_o bread_n and_o wine_n than_o he_o and_o they_o sing_v as_o some_o conceive_v six_o psalm_n loc._n beza_n in_o loc._n begin_v at_o 112._o to_o 117._o whence_o it_o be_v the_o practice_n of_o church_n follow_v the_o pattern_n to_o sing_v after_o the_o receive_n of_o the_o supper_n so_o the_o example_n of_o paul_n and_o silas_n act._n 16_o 25._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d hymnos_fw-la canebant_fw-la deo_fw-la say_v beza_n or_o hymnis_fw-la laudabant_fw-la deum_fw-la piscator_fw-la and_o pasor_n they_o praise_v god_n with_o hymn_n that_o which_o some_o object_n the_o text_n say_v they_o sing_v praise_n not_o psalm_n this_o be_v very_o poor_a beside_o the_o original_a word_n how_o shall_v one_o sing_v praise_n to_o god_n but_o in_o some_o psalm_n spiritual_a son_n etc._n etc._n for_o praise_n if_o you_o take_v it_o proper_o as_o distinct_a from_o honour_n and_o glory_n be_v but_o the_o honourable_a make_v mention_n of_o another_o and_o that_o external_o by_o tongue_n or_o pen_n also_o that_o text_n heb._n 13.15_o by_o he_o therefore_o let_v we_o offer_v the_o sacrifice_n of_o praise_n to_o god_n continual_o that_o be_v the_o fruit_n of_o our_o lip_n etc._n etc._n intimate_v as_o much_o and_o this_o text_n over-throws_a that_o conceit_n of_o sing_v only_o in_o the_o heart_n which_o one_o that_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rowly_n in_o new_a england_n have_v take_v up_o and_o upon_o that_o ground_n and_o some_o other_o notion_n he_o have_v deny_v sing_v and_o maintain_v as_o well_o as_o he_o can_v that_o sing_v of_o psalm_n be_v no_o ordinance_n of_o god_n i_o do_v not_o know_v how_o this_o man_n opinion_n come_v to_o be_v know_v for_o have_v he_o keep_v his_o own_o counsel_n i_o suppose_v none_o shall_v much_o have_v take_v notice_n of_o he_o which_o make_v i_o think_v it_o be_v of_o his_o own_o vent_n at_o first_o our_o elder_n labour_v with_o he_o to_o convince_v he_o the_o elder_n of_o ipswich_n beside_o his_o own_o pastor_n this_o text_n be_v allege_v to_o prove_v sing_v with_o a_o audible_a voice_n for_o they_o sing_v and_o the_o prisoner_n hear_v he_o yet_o this_o man_n can_v not_o or_o rather_o will_v not_o for_o the_o thing_n be_v plain_a as_o any_o one_o may_v understand_v be_n
separation_n examine_v or_o a_o treatise_n wherein_o the_o ground_n for_o separation_n from_o the_o ministry_n and_o church_n of_o england_n be_v weigh_v and_o find_v too_o light_a the_o practice_n prove_v to_o be_v not_o only_o unwarrantable_a but_o likewise_o so_o hurtful_a to_o the_o church_n that_o church-reformation_n can_v with_o any_o comfort_n go_v forward_o so_o long_o as_o such_o separation_n be_v tolerate_v also_o a_o humble_a request_n present_v to_o the_o congregational_a divine_n that_o since_o the_o difference_n between_o they_o and_o the_o classical-divines_a be_v very_o small_a they_o will_v please_v to_o strike_v in_o with_o the_o classical-divines_a in_o carry_v on_o the_o work_n of_o reformation_n before_o the_o inundation_n of_o these_o corrupt_a opinion_n have_v destroy_v both_o ordinance_n and_o religion_n by_o gi._n firmin_n minister_n to_o the_o church_n in_o shalford_n in_o essex_n 1_o cor._n 1.10_o now_o i_o beseech_v you_o brethren_z by_o the_o name_n of_o our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n that_o you_o all_o speak_v the_o same_o thing_n and_o that_o there_o be_v no_o schism_n among_o you_o judicabit_fw-la autem_fw-la &_o eosqui_fw-la schismata_fw-la operantur_fw-la qui_fw-la sunt_fw-la immanes_a non_fw-la habentes_fw-la dei_fw-la dilectionem_fw-la suamque_fw-la utilitatem_fw-la potius_fw-la considerantes_fw-la quàm_fw-la unitatem_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la propter_fw-la modicas_fw-la &_o quaslibet_fw-la causas_fw-la magnum_fw-la &_o gloriosum_fw-la corpus_fw-la christi_fw-la conscindunt_fw-la &_o dividunt_fw-la etc._n etc._n irenae_n l._n 4._o c._n 62._o cavenda_fw-la sunt_fw-la autem_fw-la fratres_fw-la dilectissimi_fw-la non_fw-la solum_fw-la quae_fw-la sunt_fw-la aperta_fw-la &_o manifesta_fw-la sed_fw-la &_o astutae_fw-la fraudis_fw-la subtilitate_fw-la fallentia_fw-la etc._n etc._n haeteses_fw-la invenit_fw-la &_o schismata_fw-la quibus_fw-la subverteret_fw-la fidem_fw-la veritatem_fw-la corrumperet_fw-la scinderet_fw-la unitatem_fw-la cypr._n de_fw-fr unit_fw-la eccles_n london_n print_v by_o r._n i._n for_o stephen_n bowtell_n at_o the_o bible_n in_o popes-head-alley_n 1652._o the_o content_n there_o be_v true_a visible_a church_n in_o england_n pag._n 1_o there_o be_v a_o true_a gospel-ministry_n in_o england_n pag._n 4._o the_o ground_n of_o separation_n must_v be_v either_o in_o the_o ministry_n worship_n congregation_n or_o place_n of_o meeting_n p._n 12_o the_o ordination_n of_o the_o minister_n by_o bishop_n can_v be_v no_o ground_n for_o separation_n p._n 22_o there_o can_v be_v no_o ground_n in_o the_o worship_n be_v sing_v of_o psalm_n be_v here_o touch_v p._n 32_o there_o can_v be_v no_o ground_n in_o the_o congregation_n though_o many_o wicked_a person_n be_v there_o nor_o in_o the_o place_n of_o meeting_n p._n 39_o the_o proposal_n of_o the_o separatist_n what_o they_o will_v have_v be_v set_v down_o and_o answer_v return_v as_o 1_o they_o will_v have_v minister_n lay_v down_o their_o former_a call_n and_o join_v with_o they_o than_o they_o it_o may_v be_v will_v elect_v they_o and_o ordain_v they_o where_o this_o question_n be_v handle_v p._n 46_o quest_n whether_o election_n only_o give_v the_o essential_o to_o a_o minister_n and_o ordination_n be_v but_o a_o adjunct_n p._n 50_o whether_o the_o people_n have_v power_n to_o ordain_v p._n 70_o whether_o the_o fraternity_n be_v the_o first_o subject_n of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n brief_o touch_v p._n 73_o 2_o they_o will_v have_v a_o explicit_a covenant_n which_o they_o call_v the_o form_n of_o a_o church_n p._n 81_o 3_o no_o church-member_n but_o visible_a saint_n p._n 82_o 4_o power_n in_o admission_n and_o excommunication_n p._n 83_o 5_o liberty_n to_o prophesy_v p._n 84_o 6_o liberty_n of_o conscience_n p._n 88_o how_o it_o appear_v that_o church-reformation_n can_v with_o comfort_v proceed_v so_o long_o as_o the_o separation_n be_v tolerate_v p._n 91_o the_o separatist_n be_v no_o such-friend_n to_o the_o civil_a power_n as_o be_v pretend_v p._n 94_o the_o question_n propound_v to_o the_o separatist_n in_o reference_n to_o their_o separation_n p._n 97_o the_o agreement_n and_o difference_n with_o and_o between_o the_o classical_a and_o congregationall_a divine_n be_v review_v their_o agreement_n find_v to_o be_v many_o their_o difference_n very_o few_o p._n 100_o whence_o a_o humble_a request_n be_v present_v to_o the_o congregationall_a divine_n speedy_o to_o join_v with_o the_o classical_a divine_n back_v with_o seven_o reason_n p._n 108_o to_o the_o reverend_a the_o minister_n of_o london_n the_o author_n of_o the_o vindication_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n and_o ministry_n etc._n etc._n print_v 1650._o father_n and_o brethren_n the_o goodness_n of_o god_n manifest_v of_o old_a to_o england_n in_o cause_v the_o sun_n of_o his_o gospel_n to_o rise_v early_o upon_o this_o nation_n and_o to_o find_v such_o entertainment_n in_o the_o heart_n of_o the_o supreme_a power_n that_o it_o be_v the_o first_o nation_n that_o ever_o receive_v the_o gospel_n with_o the_o countenance_n of_o public_a authority_n have_v the_o first_o christian_a king_n that_o ever_o be_v be_v know_v to_o the_o whole_a christian_a world_n his_o goodness_n in_o these_o latter_a day_n since_o he_o take_v from_o our_o neck_n the_o anti-christian_n yoke_n have_v be_v also_o wonderful_a honour_v the_o minister_n of_o his_o gospel_n with_o such_o holiness_n learning_n ministerial_a ability_n and_o success_n in_o their_o labour_n in_o convert_v many_o and_o set_v up_o the_o power_n of_o godliness_n in_o this_o nation_n that_o he_o have_v not_o honour_v any_o nation_n more_o nay_o without_o pride_n it_o may_v be_v speak_v his_o free_a grace_n have_v not_o honour_v any_o nation_n so_o much_o in_o these_o respect_n as_o this_o english_a nation_n but_o now_o in_o our_o day_n the_o ministry_n which_o god_n have_v thus_o honour_v be_v as_o much_o dishonour_v and_o that_o by_o such_o who_o can_v but_o acknowledge_v their_o own_o mouth_n have_v speak_v it_o that_o what_o spiritual_a good_a they_o have_v receive_v it_o be_v wrought_v by_o the_o ministry_n and_o now_o we_o find_v scorn_v deride_v separate_v from_o the_o ministry_n and_o many_o not_o so_o much_o as_o step_v over_o their_o threshold_n to_o hear_v they_o who_o be_v the_o first_o instrument_n of_o their_o good_a if_o they_o have_v any_o as_o some_o we_o hope_v have_v and_o yet_o the_o minister_n be_v the_o same_o they_o be_v before_o yea_o some_o repent_v that_o ever_o they_o bestow_v so_o much_o pain_n and_o time_n to_o follow_v the_o minister_n as_o one_o that_o live_v but_o four_o or_o five_o mile_n from_o dedham_n have_v say_v he_o repent_v that_o he_o follow_v that_o eminent_a servant_n of_o god_n mr._n rogers_n so_o much_o to_o hear_v his_o preach_n while_o i_o observe_v these_o thing_n and_o consider_v into_o what_o a_o sad_a condition_n we_o be_v fall_v and_o read_v over_o your_o vindication_n in_o which_o i_o see_v a_o holy_a meek_a and_o true_a christian_a spirit_n breathe_v call_v upon_o the_o congregationall_a man_n to_o join_v with_o you_o certain_o i_o think_v that_o book_n deserve_v a_o courteous_a christian_a answer_n from_o the_o able_a of_o our_o congregationall_a man_n what_o they_o have_v do_v towards_o it_o i_o know_v not_o be_v little_o acquaint_v with_o affair_n abroad_o be_v lock_v up_o in_o much_o sadness_n of_o spirit_n at_o home_n but_o i_o think_v with_o myself_o that_o be_v i_o be_v number_v among_o the_o independent_o though_o i_o be_o the_o weak_a and_o most_o worthy_a the_o holy_a lord_n shall_v turn_v i_o out_o of_o his_o holy_a work_n lay_v other_o thing_n together_o which_o i_o have_v mention_v in_o the_o epistle_n to_o the_o reader_n i_o resolve_v to_o improve_v the_o little_a talon_n the_o lord_n have_v give_v i_o in_o examine_v the_o ground_n of_o these_o practice_n and_o to_o stand_v up_o in_o the_o defence_n of_o such_o minister_n who_o i_o see_v be_v dear_a to_o christ_n 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have_v no_o right_n to_o any_o church_n ordinance_n to_o have_v no_o communion_n with_o any_o of_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n now_o if_o this_o judgement_n be_v right_a be_v not_o such_o person_n or_o congregation_n put_v out_o of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o christ_n and_o put_v under_o the_o power_n of_o satan_n consequent_o certain_o this_o can_v be_v a_o ground_n of_o such_o difference_n shall_v non_fw-la and_o exit_fw-la make_v such_o a_o stir_n when_o non_n be_v as_o bad_a as_o exit_fw-la i_o shall_v judge_v myself_o i_o be_o sure_a to_o be_v in_o as_o bad_a a_o case_n by_o the_o one_o as_o the_o other_o though_o for_o my_o part_n this_o notion_n of_o catholike-visible-church_n have_v make_v i_o ready_a to_o yield_v to_o synod_n juridical_a power_n i_o can_v i_o say_v yield_v it_o and_o yet_o not_o differ_v from_o these_o reverend_a divine_n if_o they_o follow_v home_o their_o non-communion_n close_o now_o if_o you_o say_v what_o do_v this_o help_n against_o heretical_a 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dispute_n do_v so_o stop_v the_o mouth_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n that_o they_o appear_v to_o the_o magistrate_n unreasonable_o obstinate_a be_v banish_v d_o the_o city_n defen_n ag_n tomb._n 58._o ecclesiae_fw-la appellant_n magistratum_fw-la in_o causis_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la non_fw-la ad_fw-la doctrinam_fw-la declarandam_fw-la vel_fw-la disciplinam_fw-la exequendam_fw-la sed_fw-la ad_fw-la doctrinam_fw-la a_o cencilio_fw-la declaratam_fw-la vel_fw-la disciplinam_fw-la ab_fw-la ecclesiâ_fw-la applicatam_fw-la sanctione_n civili_fw-la confirmandam_fw-la the_o dury_n which_o mr._n cotton_n show_v to_o lie_v upon_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n infer_v as_o much_o as_o also_o mr._n burrough_n and_o thus_o it_o be_v in_o new_a england_n when_o the_o synod_n at_o which_o the_o civil_a power_n be_v present_a as_o to_o hear_v so_o to_o keep_v civil_a order_n have_v consute_v and_o condemn_v the_o error_n and_o heresy_n and_o so_o be_v break_v up_o than_o a_o general_n court_n be_v call_v which_o soon_o suppress_v those_o heresy_n and_o bring_v the_o church_n to_o peace_n again_o if_o the_o civil_a power_n will_v do_v as_o much_o here_o we_o shall_v soon_o see_v our_o church_n in_o better_a order_n what_o civil_a magistrate_n have_v do_v in_o this_o ease_n before_o i_o need_v not_o mention_v book_n be_v full_a it_o be_v true_a the_o church_n be_v when_o there_o be_v no_o civil_a power_n to_o defend_v they_o but_o oppose_v they_o but_o we_o can_v find_v how_o many_o heresy_n and_o schism_n they_o be_v then_o trouble_v with_o shall_v the_o church_n be_v in_o no_o better_a case_n under_o a_o christian_a civil_a power_n nursing-fathers_n then_o at_o that_o time_n 6_o do_v the_o classical_a godly_a man_n look_v upon_o their_o congregation_n have_v visible_a saint_n among_o they_o to_o be_v true_a visible_a church_n so_o do_v the_o congregationall_a man_n judge_v they_o also_o i_o give_v instance_n before_o 7_o will_v then_o the_o classical_a brethren_n have_v their_o member_n be_v such_o as_o have_v right_a to_o the_o ordinance_n to_o partake_v with_o congregational_a church_n in_o the_o lord_n supper_n to_o show_v their_o communion_n certain_o so_o they_o ought_v but_o why_o congegationall_a man_n do_v refuse_v godly_a man_n member_n of_o classical_a church_n not_o admit_v they_o to_o the_o lord_n supper_n when_o they_o have_v desire_v it_o be_v very_o strange_a to_o i_o i_o wish_v our_o reverend_a brethren_n will_v give_v we_o solid_a ground_n for_o this_o practice_n for_o it_o give_v offence_n and_o that_o just_o this_fw-mi just_o preface_n to_o survey_v ch_n this_fw-mi mr._n hooker_n and_o 266._o and_o iren._n p._n 266._o mr._n burrough_n have_v both_o say_v they_o shall_v be_v admit_v shall_v a_o church_n be_v acknowledge_v to_o be_v a_o true_a church_n where_o doctrine_n and_o worship_n be_v pure_a also_o this_o person_n a_o member_n of_o it_o a_o visible_a saint_n it_o may_v be_v a_o real_a saint_n and_o shall_v he_o be_v deny_v communion_n 8_o for_o 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