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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A54177	The new witnesses proved old hereticks, or, Information to the ignorant in which the doctrines of John Reeve and Lodowick Muggleton, which they stile, mysteries never before known, revealed, or heard of from the foundation of the world, are proved to be mostly ancient whimsies, blasphemies and heresies, from the evidence of Scripture, reason and several historians : also an account of some discoourse betwixt L.M. and my self, by which his blasphemous, ignorant and unsavory spirit is clearly and truly manifested, in love to the immortal souls of those few, who are concern'd in the belief of his impostures / by a living true witness to that one eternal way of God, revealed in the light of righteousness W.P.	Penn, William, 1644-1718.	1672 (1672)	Wing P1326; ESTC R15258	38,470	64

so span the Heavens with a great Hand and rid with a mighty Body upon the Circle of the Earth which how ridiculous and false soever it is is as true as Reeve's or Muggleton's Conceit Thus far indeed they would be in the right by such a Consequence That Almighty God would have a Body but they would grosly lye in the dimensions of it who say 'T is no bigger then a middle statured man Thus much If not too much upon this piece of old vain Anthropomorphitism That this idle Opinion is against that Understanding which God has given Men to judge of the Difference of Things we also prove First If God were a Person of mans stature it would destroy his Ubiquity or Omnipresence which is one of his most divine Properties rightly attributed to him For how is it possible so inconsiderable a Body can be at all places at one and the same time by which to see and understand all things or to administer Strength and Comfort to his scatter'd Flock throughout the World Secondly If they would say he is present by his Spirit as read Reeve's Epistle to his Divine Looking-Glass I affirm against all Muggletonians upon Earth That then not that Body but that Omnipresent Spirit is the truly in infinite God Thirdly But I would fain know how God and his Spirit can be divided or separated Can any man be truly such whose spirit is absent from him What Body is a living Body without a spirit any more than Faith can be living without Works How then can God's Body no bigger then a Mortal Man's be contained in Reeve's and Muggleton's conceited Heaven and his Spirit every where Where God's Spirit is God is he can never be divided from his own Life and Spirit for God is that Spirit or that Spirit is God they are synonimously or equivolently to be taken This the Apostle believed when he told the Athenians That God was nigh to every one of them and in him they lived moved and had their Beeing Fourthly How was it possible for Reeve to hear God speak with a Voice of words from beyond the Stars as one Body speaks to another and no Body hear besides himself nor the visible Firmament or Air to receive any Alteration or Disposure as ever was when Voices of Words have been uttered whether to Moses or of Christ or otherwise If any say It was a spiritual Voice such talk sottishly no Carnal Ear can hear a Spiritual Voice as Reeve himself teacheth page 47. T.S.T. concerning which something may be fitly hinted else-where Fifthly But I would add from their wicked Principles That if Man be God's Image in reference to his Body then because Reeve and Muggleton declare that a select number of men's Bodies and Souls are pre-ordain'd to be eternally damned therefore God has decreed his own Image to everlasting Vengeance and that to glorifie himself too which one Horrible Impiety I desire all to weigh and then there needs no farther undertaking to his Confutation That this OLD and also Exploded HERESIE I prove This wonderful dark Secret is to be read in Theodorus of Heresies the 4th Book and 10th Chapter where he speaks of one Audaeus who lived in Coelosiria in the time of Constantius the Emperor and grounded his Conjecture upon these words Let us make man after our Image Also several Monks inhabiting Aegypt conceited the God that made Heaven and Earth to be no bigger then a Man Of which Opinion with Muggleton was one Theaphilus of Alexandria they were called Anthropomorphits as may at large be seen in Eusebius Pamphilus his 6th Book and 36th Chapter also in Socrates Scholasticus his six and seven Books this was about the Year after Christ 403. and One thousand two hundred sixty nine years since Secondly THeir second Secret is That God did not create the Heavens and Earth out of Nothing but the Substance was with God from Eternity T.S.T. p. 12. That this also inconsistent with SCRIPTURE we prove First In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth and the Earth was without form and void Gen. 1.1 2. If they were created before they were formed as saith the place then Creation and Formation are not one and the same thing as Reeve and Muggleton assert in their Transcendent Spiritual Treatise p. 16. so that either the Authority of Scriptures must be denyed or else Creation is first a bringing forth of the Chaos or rude Substance and Formation the Disposition of it into such Parts and Designation unto such Ends or Services as that all wise Creator might think most befitting his great Work Enough might be said on this one particular to confute all with whom the Scriptures remain of any force Secondly Hearken unto me O Jacob and Israel my called I am he I am the first I also am the last my Hand also has laid the Foundation of the Earth Isa 48.12 13. To be first and to have laid the very Foundation of anothers Beeing supposeth that thing neither to be before it nor so much as in time equal with it and therefore denotes priority and superiority Wherefore thus I argue If God was before so much as the Foundation of the Earth was laid then was neither the Earth nor Foundation of it from Eternity with God But the Text affirms That God was first or before the very Foundation was ever laid therefore neither the Earth nor Superstructure as to its Form nor yet its Foundation or first material Principle was Co-eternal In short Nothing can be said to create any thing that is equal in time with it because such Creation supposeth the one to receive its being from the other and since God gave its Foundation or first bottom the very material Principle it follows there could be no Co-eternity betwixt them Thirdly And the Word was God All things were made by him John 1.1 13. If all things were made by him then both Heaven and Earth because they are part of all things were made by him but the place says all things or whatever has beeing were made by him therefore a●● Co-eternity of Earth or Heaven with the Everlasting God is excluded and refuted To this answers that Passage of the Apostle Paul in the Acts God that made the World and all things therein c. Fourthly To c●nclude this Head For by him were all things created and 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 things and by him all things c●n●●st Collos 1 16.17 And thou Lord in the beginning hast laid the Foundation of the Earth and the Heavens are the Works of thy Hands Heb. 1.10 That which had a Beginning which was made and which was and is upheld by another neither can have been contemporary nor co-eternal with that from which it received its Beeing but that did the Heaven and the Earth and from Almighty God as the place proves Therefore not Co-eternal with him Nor can their idle shift any wayes secure them from the dint of these Scriptures nor the Arguments built

upon them viz. making is fashioning so God made the Heavens and the Earth as a Carpenter makes a Door or a Chest he fashions it of Wood but he does not make the Wood A Distinction fitted for Bodlam then men pretending to be in their Wits Can any rationally think that when God is said to lay the Foundation of the Earth and to make the Heavens and all that live therein that he only fashioned them up Who made the Trees Plants Beasts Fowls Fishes and rational Creatures Do they strain at a Gnat and swallow a Cammel Can they think that it was harder to Almighty God to create out of Nothing the more inanimate or Lifeless part of Heaven and Earth then to compose that variety of excellent Creatures and to infuse that great Spirit and Soul by which they are respectively instincted or acted But how pertinent his Distinction is betwixt fashioning and making we will manifest by that remarkable Passage to our purpose in Paul's Epistle to the Philippians Chap. 2. And being found in fashion as a man he humbled himself c. Was Christ a real Man or not if not then Reeve and Muggleton's Fleshly Mortal Notion of the Immortal Son of God falleth to the Ground if a real man then to be fashioned may import to be and the Fashion of a thing passeth for the Beeing of a thing Of what value now their Distinction is they may consider if they please But this Opinion is also against REASON First It is the nature of what is Eternal or from all Everlasting to be Infinite Vnalterable and Almighty for it oweth no Original or Preservation to another and is equivolent in all other Properties to Eternity Now where there is not proportion it is highly to be suspected That there is no such thing at all but is a meer Chimera and real only in a Fiction Secondly That there is no resemblance is manifest the whole visible World is full of Time inconsistent with Eternity as having Beginning and End the Heavens have their set Motions the Earth her distinct Seasons in which are various Revolutions and both filled with divers Temporary Agitations and Motions Therefore it is impossible that Heaven and Earth could have been from Eternity which are so filled with and made up of all the Instances of Time and Mutation for should they The Sun must alwayes shine the Rain descend the Tide flow the Winds blow the Winter last and every Alteration that is in Time be perpetual Thirdly It is utterly impossible that Temporal Beeings could receive their sustenence and growth from what is by nature Eternal there being as great Contrariety at least Difference between them as there is betwixt visible and invisible spiritual and carnal things Fourthly Such as is the Food such should the Life be now if this visible World be eternal then the Food that springs from it should nourish to a Life as Eternal as that World which does produce it Nay since mans Body was made of the Earth we might well infer That mans Body as so made is Eternal and if Eternal as such not Mortal which Experience tells us is an idle Tale. But let this suffice at present But that this Conjecture had other Founders then Reeve and Muggleton I prove and that by two Instances Augustine sayes That there were several that affirmed That the Water was not made by God but was Co-eternal Next a certain Sect called S●luciani taught That the substance of the Creation or whereof the World was made was not made by God but Eternally with God then no Creature and then God as may at large be read in the said Augustine's Book of Heresies this Heresie raigned about Anno 300. after Christ To say nothing of that known Philosopher Aristole who was sometimes Idolator sometimes Athiest Thirdly THe third Secret which only was revealed to Reeve and Muggleton if we will believe them is That the Soul of man is generated or got by the Man and Woman with the Body and that the Body and Soul are inseparable That this is contrary to SCRIPTURE Testimony I prove First And the Spirit to God that gave it Eccle. 12.7 No Carnal Generation can bring forth a pure Spirit External Matter producing only External Matter of its own kind But the soul of Man is a spirit as the words exprest in Reeve's and Muggleton's own T.S.T. p. 44. Therefore no man gets the soul or spirit of a man when he generates the Body Secondly That which returns to God came from God but the soul of every man returns to God and consequently came from him I omit mentioning more Scriptures because the following Principle being a Consequent of this what I prove there is proved here namely The Immortality of the soul against the Atheistical Assertion of the soul's mortality with the body For where there is no Corruption there could be no proper Generation and if the soul be Immortal it was not descended of Mortal Race or begotten of elementory visible matter That this is against all Right UNDERSTANDING I prove First Such as is the Soul such must that be which produceth it but it is Spiritual Now that which generates the Body of Man being only and meerely visible Matter it cannot produce or generate an intellectual Soul or Spirit Secondly If Man got the Soul then would that Soul be as well the Image of the Father as the Body and partake as intirely of the Father's Nature and Disposition in all respects But Experience shews us That Sober Parents have Wild Children and Religious Children Debaucht Parents therefore Parents do not generate the Soul Thirdly If Soul and Body be inseparably generated then the Sexes as well belong to Souls as Bodies the which as it is absurd so would there be Men and Women in that very distinction to all Eternity And who ever read of She Souls or Female Souls Fourthly If Soul and Body were intermixtly and inseparably generated by Man then in all Anatomies it were no more difficult to find out the Soul then any other Part and in case of opening or dissecting of Living men as I have at the Vniversity seen living Beasts by Anatomists it would not be impossible but rationall that one should behold the very Thoughts Purposes and Intents of such Mens Hearts and Souls But because this were most vain we shall conclude The Soul is not generated with nor inseparable from the Body but of an Immaterial Nature That this is no newer then the rest and was esteemed Heresie in the Primitive Times I will Evidence There was a Sect called Lucifrians from one Lucifer of Sardania and the Tertullianists who held That the Soul was transfused by generation from the Parents to their Children and that the Soul is of the Flesh and Substance of the Flesh of which read Socrates in his 3d Book and 7th Chapter also Augustine of Heresies and Theodorus his 3d Book and 5th Chapter about Anno 350. Fourth THE Fourth sublime Mystery of those

shall not be your Ruin How long would I have gathered you and ye would not But now God commands all to Repent God is no Respecter of Persons but they that fear him in every Age shall be accepted c. with many more they make him but to Complement with Wicked Men and speak them fair in words meaning nothing less in his Heart having Pre-ordained them to eternal Wrath. Fifthly This Principle would defile his eternally inherent Holiness by making him as well the Father of Sin as of Destruction for men are either Damned for something or for nothing if for nothing that were most Wicked in these Predestinarians account then for something and what is that Sin very well and how came they to this sin they committed it and how came they to do so they would do it why could they have avoided it by no means where 's the Difference then betwixt being Damn'd for not doing what they could not and doing nothing The Predestination was not that all Evil Men that wilfully withstood Mercy should be Damned for they were ordained never to receive it but that such a Number consisting of such and such particular Persons should Vnalterably and Vnavoidably be Damned only to Glorifie God Sixthly But this would stain the Glory of the Almighty in that neither in himself nor from the Redemption and Salvation of the souls of men his Glory is great enough unless it be compleated in the Eternal Destruction of far the greatest part of Mankind Seventhly This destroyes all Good Works for may all say Neither can my Good nor Evil Works make one Hair white or black add or diminish in reference to God's unalterable Decree and therefore will I give my self unto the Liberty of the Flesh and enjoy the Pleasures of this Life whilst I can have them Eighthly It destroyes all Government since who cares how desperate he is or what Injury he does who conceiting to himself his Post is pitcht his State set and that unchangeably but breaking all Laws takes his Revenge on what would bring him to condign Punishment for his Exorbitancies To conclude and come somewhat closer to the Persons concerned What signifies their coming to call them to repent that cannot be saved if they do Or to warn such to repent that cannot be damned What signifies their Commission or their Cursing or Blessing For can they bless him to Life that is ordained before-hand to be damned Or can they curse him to Death who is pre-ordained to Eternal Life If therefore Men are pre-ordained to Salvation or Damnation to what purpose should any fear their Curse or prize their Blessing since neither can alter or change the Condition of any Person and what more contrary to the Mind of the Merciful God who is willing that all should come unto the Knowledge of the Truth and be saved That Antiquity both knew and abhorr'd this Opinion is Manifest Josephus in his 18th Book of Antiquities and 2d Chap. also Epiphanius in his Preface to his first Book of Heresie again Eusebius in his 5th Book chap. 13. and Socrates in his 1st Book and chap. 17. and you will be fully informed of the Abettors of this dangerous and Wicked Opinion namely a Sect of the Pharisees also Florinus Blastus against whom Ireneus Bishop of Lyons in France wrote two Epistles and a Book call'd Ogdous wherein he tells Florinus That when himself was a Child and with Famous Christian Polycarpus who conversed with John that conversed with Christ he remembred him to be busie about the Emperors Court and further tells him that had the Apostle John but lived to have heard that Damnable Doctrine which makes God the Author of Evil he would have said Good God unto what times half Thou reserved me and tells him that in Publishing so Wicked an Opinion he had declared that which all the Hereticks before had never durst to pronunce plainly with much more to this purpose against him the Sect called Manichees from one Manes held and promoted this Opinion of Fatal destiny who Muggleton-like is reported to have called himself Christ and the Comforter and published the Work of one Buddas in his own Name calling It a New Dispensation All which Reader I assure thee Histories do inform Us to have been known in the 2d 3 4 5 and 600. Years after Christ which is above a 1000. Years since In which Time many were the Impudent Spirits that assum'd to themselves as great Authority as Muggleton in Reeve's Absence doth at this time namely Simon Magus who had so far possess'd the Romans with his Sorcery of his pretended Divinity calling himself to the Samaritans the Father to the Jews the Son to the Gentiles the Holy Spirit as the Heathens erected a Statue or Image of him in the time of Claudius at Rome having this Inscription Simoni Deo Sancto to the Holy God Simon Next One Helen a Woman that accompanied him whom he called the Principle Vnderstanding much like Muggleton's Daughter who Reeve said should be the Chiefest of Women Eusebius in his 2d Book and 12 13 and 14 Chap. after this One Menander said to have been a Sorcerer and the Disciple of Simon went up and down deluding Silly Credulous People by affirming to them he was the great Power of God come down from Heaven and that all were to believe in him and be baptised in his manner or they could not be saved but those that did should never dye read Eusebius in his 3d Book Chap. 23. Ireneus Book 1. Chap. 21. Epiphan haeres 22. Again Carpocrates is reported to have like Reeves and Muggelton patch'd his Opinion who was so vain Glorious as to affirm he knew all things out of Simon Menander Nicholas from whence came the Nicolaitans in the Revelations Saturninus Basilides c. and see Epiphan Haeres 27. also Augustin of Heresies Again We find that Eusebius tells us of one Montanus whereof Montanists or Catafrygians are called taught in Phrygia that he was the Holy Ghost as may be seen in the 5th Book of Eusebius 13 14 15 16 17 Chapters Also that one Buddas affirm'd that he was born of a Virgin as true as Muggletons being the Last Witness of God This Buddas writ a Book and in his swelling Pride styl'd it Mysteries much like the Whimsies of Reeve and Muggleton in their Transcendent Spiritual Treatise next he wrote a Book called the Gospel of the Nature of Reeve and Muggleton's Divine Looking Glass His End was to break his Neck 'T is to be fear'd that a worse will be miserable Muggletons even Torment of Spirit as Reeve is said to have left the World in To conclude Noetus the Ring-Leader of that great Mystery never revealed till within these 20. years sayes Reeve and Muggleton namely the Godheads being a Man and so absolutely Flesh and Blood as that when the Body dyed the Godhead ceased and lay under Death's Power three dayes and three Nights He through the height of

new thing 'T is strange therefore that Moses was not rather of the two elected to represent him in Heaven who was a Figure of him on Earth But though Reeve would not tell us so I am of the mind I know the Reason of it namely That Christ did not call Moses Moses but Eli Eli when upon the Cross and I am perswaded he had no other Ground for that Conceit not considering that Eli Eli are Hebrew words importing no more Elias Elias then they do Moses Moses but My God My God as the place expresly shews us Much more might be said but let this serve Thirdly That the Immortal God could never Dye or cease to be is manifest and the contrary Blasphemously False 1. If God was he that made all things and by whom they are upheld as all believe that believe there is a God at all then had he ceased to be the Creation had ceased to have been upheld and consequently all had fallen into its first Chaos or the World can subsist without Him 2. That he whose Nature it was never to have Beginning and ever to live without Variation could never become so contrary to his own Nature and Being as to change dye or cease to be but such was the true God therefore he never dyed 3. If Saints live move and have their being in God as say Reeve and Muggleton pag. 201. D.L.G. then either God never dyed or there were no Saints when the Jews Crucified Christ or the Saints dyed too They deny them all they say God Dyed and there were Saints and they Lived Moved and had their Being in God though Dead which how all or any of them can hang together let sober People judge 4. If God dyed who lived and by whom for nothing can live of it self that had beginning from or dependance on another as had all the visible World on God therefore because all lived and was preserved that had its Being from God He from whom they had their Being could not be annihilated whilst they remained in being 4. If God was raised by Elias then either Elias was the True God or Elias the Creature was stronger then Jehovah the Great Creator Let this serve to confute and forever to overturn these idle Chimera's of those filthy Dreamers Reeve and Muggleton That this Blasphemous Conceit of the Immortal God's Mortality is not new I shall make appear 1st Valentinus is said opened to have published at Rome That Christ brought a Body down from Heaven and that he after some time passed through the Virgins Body again Noetus affirmed That the Father Son and Holy Ghost were Flesh or that one Person of the Son of Man or that Person so long since at Jerusalem to be Father Son and Spirit and that when he suffered on the Cross the Father Son and Holy Spirit dyed See Euseb his 4th Book and 10th Chap. Ireneus Epiphanius Heres 31. 57. about Anno 150. which is 1522. years since What Strange New Revelation this is Lastly I May mention another of their Tenets held at this day by all Calvinists abroad and of several Sects in these Nations namely Predestination or that God from all Eternity without any other Inducement then his own Pleasure hath decreed some for Salvation and some for Damnation contrary to which all their Obedience or Rebellion shall be in vain to alter his Determination That this Principle is Accurst by SCRIPTURE I prove First The Righteousness of the Righteous shall be upon him and the Wickedness of the Wicked shall be upon him but if the Wicked will turn from all his Sins that he hath committed and keep my Statutes he shall surely live he shall not dye Ez. 18.20 21. 1. If Righteousness or Wickedness are the Grounds of God's Rewarding or Punishing the Souls of men then is there no Predestination previous without consideration had to their Works but the Text affirms most plainly therefore such Decrees are denyed and disowned 2. If Man may turn from his Righteousness and Wickedness then are the Means no more inevitably predestinated for men to use then before mentioned but men may turn from either and accordingly they will be rewarded therefore no such Predestinated Damnation or Salvation Secondly For it is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the Knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim. 2.3 4. If the Apostle writ by the Spirit of God that gives to know the Mind of God then it was the Good Will of God that all men not excluding any upon a Predestination should come to the Knowledge of the Truth and be saved And consequently there is no Predestinated Restraint upon men's Understandings from knowing the Truth nor fore-appointed Bar from their enjoying the End of such True Knowledge even the Salvation of their Souls Thirdly The Lord is not slack concerning his Promise as some men count slackness but is long suffering to us-ward not willing that any should perish but that all should come to Repentance 2 Pet. 3.9 The Long-suffering of God either related to the Elect or Reprobate or Neither Not to the Elect because there is no need of fearing their Perishing Not to the Reprobate for there is no possibility of their Repentance Therefore to neither and consequently either the place is spurious or deceitful or else those kind of Elections and Reprobations are meer Phantisms Let these few Instances serve of those hundreds that might be mentioned most expresly to confirm the same That this is highly Inconsistent with REASON I briefly prove First It renders God most Vnwise to make so many thousand Creatures on purpose to Rebel against him to Kill Lye Steal Blaspheme and commit all manner of Outragious Wickedness to the grieving of his own Spirit the making him Repent he had made the World and Obstructing of his Glorious Work of Reformation Secondly It greatly Disparageth his Justice which consists in proportioning Rewards and Punishments to the Good and Evil Works of Men and overturns both by making the Eternal States necessary and unavoidable upon a Predestination without any Regard to their Works so that man is damn'd for not doing what he can't do no more then it is possible for him to break an Almighty Decree Thirdly It quite destroyes his Mercy and renders him the most Cruel of all Beings for instead of not being willing or desiring the Death of a Sinner He is here made to desire and take Pleasure in it too nay so essential is this Unutterable Cruelty to his Glory as say the Asserters of this Opinion that it would be lessened or ecclipsed without it Oh Infamous Fourthly But above all things it strikes at the very Root of God's Rectitude and Faithfulness and makes him worse then the worst of Men or Devils for whilst he sayes Your Sins have kept good Things from you as I live I delight not in the Death of a Sinner Repent and that Iniquity