of the catholyque faythe wyth warme wordes colde reasons oppugneth ¶ And finally for as myche as many good vertuouse folke began vpō that yll boke of dyuysyon to haue a ryght euyl opinyon of the maker him selfe `whom I for his playne confessyon of the trew faith toke take yet for a mā good catholike therfore I in many places of myne apology lay the faute fro the man hym self vnto some wyly shrewes that deceyued hym And so was myne apologye an answere also an a defence for y e person of the pacyfyer hym selfe And where he goeth about nowe for to confute yt there ys not in all the remanaunt of hys answere one pyece that any thyng appeyreth any poynte of myne Apologye How be yt of trouthe in thys poynte he goeth moste nere me For thys answere hathe he made in suche maner wyse that I shall haue nowe myche more a do then I than hadde to make any wyse man wene that euer hym selfe ment well And yet wyll I not leue yt so but styll wyll putte it from hym to some false wyly shrewes though the man do as he dothe saye contrarye therto hym selfe ¶ And the more the man denieth that thynge hym selfe the more he maketh yt lykely to be trew For when in the thynges that so playne appere so nought he rather taketh the mater all whole vppon hym then suffreth any parte to be layed from hym but if the man haue an importune pryde as by goddes grace he hath not elles is yt a sure sygne and a good token that he is suche a good symple soule as soone may be deceyued while we se that his wit serueth hym no better but that he wolde rather appere malycyouse then vnwyse ¶ But nowe that I haue proued hym that the name of Apologye may serue very well for euery pyece of my boke nowe wyll I somwhat se how the maters of his boke agree well wyth the name therof I mean not here hys boke of dyuysyon For of that boke the name and the mater agree to gether well but I meane of hys newe boke that we be nowe in hande wyth whyche boke as appereth in the fyrste fronte of the fyrst lefe ys named Salem and Bizance And therin of an hundred and syx leues for so many be in the boke there are scante fully fyftene that any thynge agree wyth the name ¶ Nowe yf he wyll saye that the communycacyon betwene Salem and Bizance ys but a bye mater besyde and that all the remanaunt bytwene they re talkynges ys the very boke thanne ys yt worse for then hathe hys booke neuer a name at all ¶ More ouer yf yt so were thenne sholde none of the thre laste chapyters bere the names that they do that is to wytte the .xxii. the .xxiii. and the .xxiiii. chapyter but lyke wyse as he calleth the begynnyng of theyr communycacyon byfore hys mater an introduccyon so sholde he haue called those thre chapyters after his mater an extraduccyon ¶ And yet I wote not well what I maye saye therof For in the begynnynge of the boke they re fyrste communycacyon ys called an introduccyon and so ys it intyteled vpon the leuys And yet in the very ende of that introduccyon byfore the fyrst chapyter the man sayeth hym selfe in the persone of Bizance that he hathe made as yet none introduccyon at all What he meaneth by thys can I not tell but yf he meane to make men wene that Salem and Bizance were two Englyshe men in dede and spake those wordes them selfe wythout any worde of hys ¶ But nowe bycause he sheweth hym selfe so connynge in greke wordes that vppon thys worde apologye he fyndeth the afore sayde faute wyth myne apology as though I were ouersene and obserued not y e nature of an Apology lette vs se howe well hym selfe that in the begynnynge calleth hys booke a dyaloge obserueth the nature and propertye of a dyaloge ¶ In y e thyrd lefe when Salē sheweth him self desyrouse to se the pacifyers answere Bizance answereth I shall cause yt to be wryten here after in this dyaloge worde for worde as yt is come to my handes and then thou shalt wyth good wyll haue yt And thou shalt vnderstande that hys answere begynneth at the nexte chapyter hereafter ensuynge and contynueth to the place where I shall shewe the that yt endeth ¶ Consyder good readers that this introduccyon he doth not bryng in as a rehersal of a cōmunicacyon hadde byfore but as a communycacyon present And thenne lette hym shewe me where euer he hathe herde in hys lyfe any two men in they re talkynge to gether diuyde theyr present cōmunycacyon into chapytres This is a poynte not onely so farre fro the nature of a dialoge but also from al reason that a very chylde wolde not I wene haue handeled the thynge so chyldyshely ¶ Also that Bizāce telleth Salem that the pacyfyers answere shall be wryten into theyr dyaloge that is to wyt to theyr communycacyon who sawe euer the lyke who sawe euer any thyng wryten into a communycacyon and wrytyng planted in among wordes spoken ¶ And what reason hath yt to tell hym where aboute in theyr communycacyon the pacifyers wordes shal begynne and where they shall ende◠as though Salem talkyng wyth Bizance hadde not the wyt to perceyue when Bizance speketh hym self and when he redeth hym the pacyfyers wordes wryten ¶ Also what a straunge monstrose beste maketh Bizance to Salem the pacifiers answere whyle he maketh as thoughe Salem coulde neyther perceyue the hed nor the tayle but yf hym selfe poynted hym to them both with a stycke More ouer where as Bizance sayth he wyll wryte it in to theyr dialoge y t is to wyt into theyr present◠talkynge as soone as it cometh to his handes so that at that word he had it not yet and than he wryteth it in euyn by and by and neyther goeth any where to fette it nor maketh any man come thyther to hym to bryng it is not this proprely deuysed ¶ Than stand they both styll there as they fyrste mete and that is in the strete by lykelyhed for there folke most comenly mete that mete at aduenture as they do and there is all the answere perused the readynge wherof standeth them at y e lest foure or fyue howres I trow How be it there I was a lytell ouersene For they stande not there styll aboute the readynge but there stande they styll both twayne all the whyle that Byzance is as you se into theyr talkynge and cōmunicacyō wrytynge it And that is but yf Bizance wryte fast I warraunt the wurke of a weke Now than at the wekes ende whan all the .xxi. chapyters are wryten Bizance in the .xxii. chapyter geueth Salem warnynge that there is the answere of the pacyfyer ended And this was by y e pacifier fole prudently deuysed For ellys wolde Salem wene that theyr owne talkynge together in the tother thre chapyters by mouth had ben styll
theÌ„ self toke y â— name euangelicall arrogantly to them self both by theuangelycall lyberty that they pretended as folke that wolde lyue vnder the gospell and vnder no mannes lawe besyde bycause they wolde also byleue nothynge ferther than y e very scrypture all which they take now vnder the name of the gospell For y e new lawe they take for nothyng ellys but for the declaracyon and perfeccyon of the olde ¶ Now whan they had taken thys name comeÌ„ly vpon them self the catholikes tellyng them y t they neyther lyued nor byleued accordynge to the gospell letted not yet to call them by the same name to that not to theyr prayse but to theyr rebuke shame And some turned in wrytyng y t name of theyrs in scorne in stede of euaÌ„gelicos wrote theÌ„ pseudo euaÌ„gelicos ¶ Now yf this man can not bere it that I call them as the old folke do though I wolde my selfe leue it for his pleasure y t wolde make ye wote well but a small chaunge For other folke wyll call theÌ„ styll yet by what name they lyst and neyther I nor he can lette them ¶ But to th entent he may be somewhat the lesse discontent with me for callynge heretykes by a good name he shal vnderstande that vpon suche occasyon such maner it is no newe begon thyng so to do For a certayne sorte there were of the heretikes that were y e Manicheis which were fyrst amonge them selfe called by y e name of Cathari that is to wyt pure and clene afterward the catholikes called theÌ„ by y e same name And so doth saynt Austayne also call theym in his wrytynge But yet he declareth bothe theyr false heresyes theyr secrete shamefull lyuyng for such that though he call them by the name of pure and clene as we call now these bretherne euangelycall yet he ment that they were neither pure nor clene in dede no more than these folke in lyuynge or bylyefe folow the very gospell in dede ¶ But than cometh he forth vppon me somwhat solempnly with a very foly and with a solempne lye For lo good readers these are his wordes I warraunt you wyse and trewe And now wyll I saye somwhat ferther concernyng thys mater and that is thys I meruayle mych how mayster More durste for offence of hys conscyence and for drede of the kynges dyspleasure and of the whole realme brynge vp such a slaunderouse name in this realme and put it in prynt that may lyghtly touche not onely many of the comon people but also of the greatest of the realme as well spyrytuall as temporall yf he and other of hys affynyte lyâ—te to call any of them one of the blessed bretherne or of the good brethern And in this poynt it semeth that he forgate the honour of the realme whyche he semed moch to regarde whan he sayd he coulde not thynke it to the honour of the realme that other realmes shuld wene that the whole clergye of this realme shulde be so farre fallen into the grudge and indygnacyon of the whole temporaltye as he sayth it is spoken to be in the sayd treatyse whyce he calleth the boke of diuisyon for certaynly it is more dyshonour to the realme to haue it noysed that the realme is full of heretykes than that the temporaltye grudgeth agaynste the spyrytualty and so he esheweth and fleeth the lesse sclaÌ„der though it were all true that he sayeth and renneth heedlynge into the greater ¶ And now wyll I saye somewhat ferther concernynge thys mater and that is thys I meruayle mych how this man durst for offence of his conscyence dyspleasure of god brynge vp suche a slaunderouse lye vppon me and wryte it in hys boke that I sholde wryte in myne apologye that the realme is full of heretykes ¶ If the case were nowe no better vppon my parte nor no wurse vpon his but that in myne apologye there coulde no suche sayenge be founden what rebuke were it yet vnto hym yf he were a man openly knowen by name as now the shame cleueth not on hys chekes but he soone shaketh it of whyle hys name is not at hys booke But nowe syth that in myne apologye I playnely wryte the contrary what wordes wyl there serue to saye to thys man the thynges that he were in this poynt wery wel worthy to here ¶ Râ—de good chrysten readers the xlvii chapyter of myne apology begynnynge in the .260 lefe and there shall you playnely se that I saye playne the contrary For where as thys pacyfyer dyd in hys boke of dyuisyon vnder the name of some other bylye of lykelyhed some of the spyrytualty than surmyttynge that they as of polycy noysed that the realme is full of heretykes more than it is in dede as he now bylyeth me here surmysynge that I do say the same ye shall there se that I shewe it to be vnlykely y t any polytyke spyrytuall man wolde so saye for polycy syth so to say were for them for the cause that I there shew very far agaynst good polycy And there I ferther shew y t some heretykes haue â—alsely made that noyse and there I tell for what cause And afterward iÌ„ foâ— 268. I shew y t for all theyr besy bragyng they be yet in dede but a few ¶ Now good reades whan I thus haue wryten there in both the places so open and so playne that the realm is not full of heretykes nor hath ther in but a few though y â— few be in dede ouer many growen mo also by neglygence in some parte than there hath bene in some late yeres passed how may this man fynde in his harte for shame to wryte in this wyse and as it were with such authoryte so solempnely chekke me falsely for writyng y t the realm is full thaÌ„ excuse his lyke fawte by myne yet in the coÌ„parison make myne the greater to But now is all the craft of y e comparyson dyscouered the glory of that argumeÌ„t defaced whyle you se y t his fawt is trew that myne he feyneth fyndeth not in myn boke but playn and expressely the contrary and that he spynneth that fyne lye without flex fetchyng it out of his own body as the spider spynneth her cobwebbe And thus is my fawte fayre wyped awaye hys lyeth styll in his necke and another now layed vnto it ¶ Now as thys was no lytell foly for hym to lese his credence with that openlye that myght be so soone and so playnely controlled and reproued so is his fyrst poynt also no lesse foly than that wherin he merueyleth so mych that I dare for my conscyence and for dyspleasure of my prynce of the whole realme brynge vp that slaunderouse name in the realme to call these heretykes the bretherne consyderynge that it maye lyghtely touche not onely any man of y e comen people but also of the greatest of the realme as well spyrytuall as temporall yf eyther
merely to mokke hym thaÌ„ wyth odyouse ernest argumeÌ„tes seryousely to preace vppon hym Whyche I wolde also be very loth to do for chargyng of myn owne conscyence And therfore in all thynges y t me thynke are of greate weyght though I touche his wordê I accuse not his own mynde intent For in good fayth I haue of y t man good trust y t he meneth no wurse but wold all thyng were well hym self but euer more my mynde geueth me y t some wyly shrewes abuse y e good mannes simplicyte The .x. chapyter HIs .x. chapyter begynneth in the xxxiii lefe wherin he towcheth certayne wordê of myne wryten in the .xxvii. chapyter of myne apologye that begynneth fo 162. wherin he varyeth not mych with me sauynge in that I say that yf the prelates of y e chyrch wold wythdrawe from theyr worldely coÌ„tenaunce as is kepynge of honestley men in theyr seruyce and kepynge of a good wurshypfull table and wold bestow theyr plate the moste parte of all theyr mouables at ones vppon poore folke and yerely after the moste of theyr yerely reuenus to of whiche mynde I sayd I durste warraunt well that some prelates be yf that wolde as I saye there amende all these grudges that I durste be bolde to warraunt as well also that yf the prelates so dyd the selfe same folke that now grudge and call them proude for theyr countenaunce wold than fynde as great a grudge call them ypochrytes for theyr almoyse and wolde saye that they spende vppon noughty beggers the good that was wont to kepe good yomen and that therby they both enfeble and also dyshonour the realme ¶ Vppon these wordes of myn this good man maketh me forsothe a full goodly sermoÌ„ in the .xxxv. lefe of his booke where he begynneth it with these wordes I can not se. And veryly yf he had there left gone no ferther it had ben well inough For as for the thyng that he speketh of it appereth by hys wordes he can not se very well in dede ¶ Bycause chryst commaundeth in the gospell y t we shall not iudge and that saynt Poule sayth also who art thou that iudgest another maÌ„nes seruaunt and agayne byddeth vs that we iudge not before the tyme al whiche places are vnderstand of iugyng certayne and determinate persons to do euyll in the thynges that we se them do where the thynges be but indyfferent of them selfe and maye be done not euyl onely but well also this good man therfore layeth these textys to touche me for iudgyng that some folke whom I neyther assigne by name nor as yet knowe not who they be wyll do euyll hereafter by mysse iudgynge other men ¶ I wene verely that saynt Poule hym selfe at the tyme whan he forbode vs to â—iudge before the tyme did euyn than iudge that some wolde after that misse iudge and iudge before the tyme to ¶ And albe it that our sauyour saith that who so call hys brother fole is gylty to the fyre â— yet he ment not of him y t wold say that there were some folys abrode in the worlde For yf he so ment than wolde there not tenne fyrys be payne inough for hym that wrote these wordes in the scrypture There are of folys an infynyte nomber ¶ And bycause this good man vseth somtyme thys fygure of examynacyon I wolde wytte of mayster More thiâ— that I wolde nowe wytte thys one thynge of thys good man Suche sawtes as he fyndeth wyth the spyrytualty wryten in hys boke of dyuysyon whyther dyd he than iudge y t some of the spyrytualtye wolde fall in them any more after or not If he iudged that all theyr fantasyes towarde those fawtes were all redy passed before and that none of them wolde neuer do more so than hadde he lytel cause to write all that wurke vppon theym And vn the tother syde yf he iudged that some of them wolde afterwarde do some such thynges agayne eyther but yf he gaue theym warnynge or ellys though he dyd as I dare saye what so euer hym selfe saye in some of those thynges he dyd than syth y e tyme in which he iudged in his mynd made hym selfe therof sure y t some of theym wolde do some suche euyll thynges afterwarde as were at the tyme of the same iudgement of hys mynde not comen hym selfe fell as you se by hys owne argument in the daynger of that prohybycyon y t hym selfe bryngeth in by whyche saynte Poule forbedeth and sayth Nolite ante tempus iudicare Iudge you not before the tyme. ¶ Now yf he say that I tell whom I mene though not by name yet by a sygne and a token in that I saye euyn the same wyll than call theym ypocrytes for theyr almoyse that nowe call theym proude for theyr worldely countenaunce he muste consyder that I neyther tell nor can tell who be they nor though I saye the same I saye not yet all the same And therfore no more mysse iudge any man determynately and in certayne than he that wolde saye thus as many men saye in dede Euyn they that go now full fresshe in theyr garded hosyn and theyr gaye golden reuen shyrtes and in theyr sylken sleuys that nought haue to bere it out but gamynge wyll ones I warrauÌ„t you fall fro gamynge to stelynge start strayt out of sylke into hempe Thus sayeth and thus iudgeth ye wote well many a man and yet meneth not that it shall so mysse happe them all but that some shall amende and do better and that yet hys worde wyll be veryfyed in many so doth it proue in dede and he that so sayth before is farre inough fro the dayngeour of all those textes whych this good man precheth to me ¶ But than he sayth ferther that he trusteth that those prelates whom I saye I durste warraunt to be of such mynde wyll not dyfferre theyr good purpose for no suche suspycyon that happely wyll neuer come ne yet for no such vncherytable wordê though they were spoken in dede And thervppon he descendeth to the makyng of actys of perleament ¶ If those prelates that I mene of rekened them self very sure y t all the wytte and the lernynge that is in the worlde or within this realme eyther were eyther in theyr owne hedys or in this good maÌ„nes and myne which peraduenture for myne owne mynde colde agre well with this good man in this poynt and aduise those prelates that I speke of to folowe theyr owne mynde therin and out of hande euyn so to do thaÌ„ haue I lytell dowt but that they wold euyn so do in dede But some of them haue ofter ben as I suppose than onys where they haue herde both wyse and good folke to and peraduenture yet sholde here agayne yf it were as thys man wold haue it spoken of in the playne open perleament that wolde not fayle to dyssuade it and laye no lytell causes why ¶ But I wyl not at this
e spyrytual men relygyouse and seculare holde to gether in the mayntenauÌ„ce of the worldly honour that they cal the honour of god of the ryches of spyritual men ¶ Nowe you wote well I speke in the sayde .xix. chapytre that of the spirytualtye suche as are fallen from the fayth vnto heresye hold not at al wyth that honour that I thoughte he there had ment that is to wyt wyth byeldynge and garnyshynge of chyrches but be both agaynst that and tythes and offeringes and obytes and trentalles aud purgatorye masse and al. And I had weÌ„t in good fayth that of so great a thyng and so mych spokeÌ„ of yt had happed hym to heare some say meÌ„ speke but he sayth nay Wel we can no farther thaÌ„ but stand vnto hys worde and take an othe of his honesty therin yet I wene as honeste as he is what so euer he be his own honeste frende wyll be loth to swere wyth hym therin But then sayth he farther y t though yt were so that wolde not yet answere hys sayeng It wolde not to saye the soth in very dede takynge his worde as I wene he ment yt But takynge his worde to the worst as he taketh alwaye myne and yet but euyn as he wrote yt but yf yt be prented false yt is a confutacyon to yt For yf those spyrytuall persones bothe relygyouse and seculares that are fallen from the fayth to heresyes holde not wyth the remanaunt then perdye though they were fewer then they be yt ys not all trewe that he sayeth that in the mayntenaunce of suche honoure they holde the gether all And yet as I haue all redye shewed you yt wolde not helpe hys parte of a peny though they dyd eueryâ—hone seculares and relygyouse catholyqnes and heretyques to And therfore can he not saye but he ys in thys poynte answered euen to the very full ¶ Than in the .xxviii. and .xxix. lefe he subtylly fyndeth a faute that I saye that there are some suche of the spyritualty so fallen vnto heresyes that yt is pytye that euer they were therof bycause he sayth we sholde not dyspayre of theym but they may repent and amende And also though they do neuer amende yet I sholde not saye so For men maye not saye by the deuyll that yt is pytye that euer he was created bycause goddes iustyce ys sheweth on hym We wyl in thys mater kepe no longe scholes But thys euery man knoweth that who so vse a commen worde spoken amonge the people ys rekened so to meane therin as the commen people meane y t vse yt And therfore syth the people that so speketh meaneth not to speke agaynste amendement but agaynste the present wreched state that the man standeth in at the tyme that worde may by goddes grace be borne metely well ynough And as touchynge the deuyll though men maye not grudge agaynst goddes iuste punyshement yet peraduenture a man myght saye wythoute parell of dampnacyom that yt was pytye that he so mysse vsed hym selfe as in theym that are for they re heyghnouse offences put vnto paynefull deth though we saye they were serued as they well deserued yet we lette not to saye yt was pytye that they guyded theym selfe no better And saynte Chrysostome pytyeth also the deuyll And our sauyoure hym selfe pytyed Hierusalem and for the pytye wept also thereon for the punyshement that sholde fall theron and yet was yt the iuste punyshement of god ¶ And though the partyes afterwarde maye mende and do good agayne yet for the tyme tyll they mende ye and after to we maye pytye that they were in suche case as to hurte theym whome they haue all redy remedelesse destroyed by theyr false doctryne dede in the damnable heresyes that they lerned of theym and lye therfore beryed in hell And therfore the thynge that I maye not absolutely pytye yet in some respectes I may ¶ Fynally he sayeth that I sholde not call any heretyques desperate wrechys This is a sore poynte I assure you to cal a wreche suche as he sheweth hym selfe to be to cal hym desperate whose lyuynge sheweth no maner hope of amendement Saynte Cypryane I se well was sore ouersene whyche in the seuenth pystle of hys fyrste booke for lesse thynges than these are calleth some folke desperate And yâ—t was saynt Policarpus farther euâ—â—sene whyche calleth Marcyon the fyrste begotten sonne of the deuyll Thys man hathe here as he weneth founde oute proper fantsyes wherin I hadde leuer leue hym in the lykynge thanne lese myche tyme in answerynge of suche blonte subtyll tryfles ¶ But to the mater good readers concernynge the formare wordes of hys dyuysyon all be yt that I haue here more thanne fully confuted this chapytre of hys for any defence that he hathe for hys sayde formare wordes where aboute ys all our mater reade yet the .xviii. chapyter of myne Apologye wherin you shall se dyuerse other lyke wordes of his and applye me myne answere there to those other wordes of hys whyche he defendeth here and ye shall se that he shal houe more worke then ynough to defende theym well and to make theym serue hym to purpose The .ix. chapyter HIs .ix. chapyter begynneth in the xxx lefe And his formare wordê which he therwyth defendeth and myne answere also therto ye shall se in the xix chapyter of myne apologye fo 119. Whyche when you haue good readers there ones redde ouer than forthwyth whyle yt ys freshe in remembraunce retourne agayne vnto this the .ix. chapyter of his dyaloge and than iudge whether it any thyng touche the poynte or not For al thys chapyter is spent in preachynge of restytucyon full wel and ful trewly forsoth and whych in my pore mynd I very well allowe and wold haue allowed in lyke wyse his fyrste boke very well yf there had ben no worse wordes in yt than suche But nowe the mater standeth all in thys that thys man maketh there as though the spyrytuallye were very besye to procure men and to enduce the people to geue money to trentalles to founde chaunteryes and obytes and to obteyne pardons and to go vppon pylgrymages leuynge theyr dettes vnpayed and restytucyon vnmade whyche thynges shold be done fyrst and that thys ys the maner of the multitude of the spyritualtie In this standeth the questyon And therfore is now the poynt not whether dettes be fyrst to be payed satisfaccyon of wronges fyrste to be made byfore al these other thynges wherin thys man sayeth here surely full well but whyther as he wolde haue yt seme by his boke of diuisyon y t y e multitude of the spyrytualtie y t is to wit eyther al saue a fewe or at the leste wyse farre the moste parte do solycyte and labour lay people to the contrarye maner that is to wyt to do those other thynges rather than to pay theyr dettê or make restitucyoÌ„ of theyr wroÌ„gis This is I say y e point And of thys
suche dyuysyon or not And after he sayth that in the tother place I confesse that there ys a dyuysyon and call yt there the late sprongen dyuysyon Lo nowe he forgetteth thys lytle shorte worde this monasyllable Suche whych he rehersed fyrste in bryngynge forthe my fyrste place and then by and by eyther of forgetefulnes or ellys of wylynesse leueth oute in hys illacyon that he maketh vppon the same wordes of myne ¶ Nowe good readers you se well that to saye there is a dyuysyon and to saye there ys no suche dyuysyon be nothynge contrarye at all For I dyd in dede not deny but that some dyuysyon there was that ys to wytte some lytle varyaunce in some place begonne and by some fewe naughtye folke blowne forthe to farre For a lytle waye ys to farre in suche a thyng But than meane I a dyuysyon such as yt ys not suche a dyuysyon as thys man by hys booke maketh yt I maye well wythoute contradyccyon saye to hym There ys a dyuysyon and yet saye that there ys no suche dyuysyon as he speketh of For yt is not all one to saye there ys a dyuysyon and â—o saye there ys suche a dyuysyon ¶ Nowe yf I wolde stycke wyth hym vpon tryflys I coulde proue hym that If dothe not alwaye purporte a doute as he sayeth that yt alwaye dothe but ys sometyme vsed to conferme a certayntye As yf a man say he that dyeth in dedely synne shal go to the deuyll yf goddes word be trewe douteth not of the trouthe of goddes worde but by the trouthe therof meaneth to coÌ„ferme the damnacyon of theym that dye in dedely synne ¶ But I saye not this as though yt sholde be lyke in myne For I do not in dede take If there in such fashion And therfore I wyll not do here by If as thys man doth by As in hys chapyter nexte byfore in heresyes spoken as of polycye vsynge y e sample of wordes spoken by a good man in reprochynge of hypocrysee to be lyke hys owne wordes spoken in the mynyshynge of they re blame that vnder suche pretexte of polycye wolde speke and sow aboute playne and open heresye I nede here no suche wayes for my wordes For here haue you sene your selfe by his owne wordes that there ys in my wordes no contradyccyon at all The .xiii. chapyter HIs .xiii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxix lefe and by y e rehersynge of diuerse wordes of his owne in dyuers other places of his boke here he declareth his mynde that he entended not in his boke of diuysyon to brynge in among the people any hatered agaynste the spyrytualtye ¶ Now in dede I do my self declare expressely in many places of myne apologye that what so euer wordes I speke therin yet I ment euer more th entent of hys boke and not of hys person And all though that in some places I say the pacyfyer here doth this or that to this euyll purpose or that yet I mene euer the dede his the malyce of the purpose some other wyly shrewys whyche not beynge fully of so good catholyke mynde as I thynke all waye this man is hym self which openly dysprayseth these new broched heresyes and with detestacyon of them reherseth them by name haue abused his playn simplycyte makyng him wene good sowle y u while he dyd put in of his own good mynde these good wordes whych he reherseth here and with them here there in some sondry places pretyly powder y e boke it coulde not be taken that there were any hurt ment in the hole worke togyther how euyll wordes and how malycyouse so euer the sotle shrewys made hym stuffe vp y e boke with bysyde Was not that a synful wily way of theÌ„ to begyle a good symple soule so For I wysse it is eth to se that yf the good man were not of hym self very simple playn those dowble wyly shrewes coulde neuer deceyue hym so as to make hym wene that these wordes whych he reherseth here in his .xiii. chapyter were any maner token that his boke of diuisyon ment not to brynge the clergye in hatered amonge the people ¶ For who were there that so intendynge wolde yet for shame vtterly say that there were none good and not rather to kepe his credence in slawnderynge the body wolde caste in sometyme an excepcyon of some In suche crafte is no great sleyght It is but a comen playne poynt and as easy to spye as a longe nose vpon a lytell face specyally whyle as clerely as he sayth that there be many good yet as you maye se folio .238 of myne apology he sayth playnely that it is harde to fynde any one with out that poynt that yf he saye therin trew the very beste is very nought and as badde as a very beste And for y e ferther profe of this point rede myne answere to hys .xvii. chapyter in thys boke ¶ And where he speketh here of the fere that he wold euery man sholde haue of the leste censures of the chyrche as though he therin ment myche the fauour of spyrytuall men consyder the place euyn here in hys new boke where he speketh of inquysycyons oâ— heresyes in his .xvii. chapyter and you shall well perceyue that they that made hym there put those wordes in ment lytell good to y e clergye For it is there layed in a mater full chyldyshly to theyr charge as though they wolde haue all the iustyces of the peace and all the iuryes of the realme accursed for enquyrynge of heresye ¶ But yet is it of all thyngê a vâ—ry specyall pleasure to se how he vseth here for a playne apparent profe of hys good mynde towarde the spyrytualty that he wisheth wel for them and prayeth god to sende them habuÌ„dauntely zele of sowles pitye good doctryne and deuowt prayour And sayth that than a new lyght of grace sholde shortely shyne c. and that he sayth also that it is great pytye and mych to be lamented that the spyrytualtye do not faste and praye and do other good dedes to ceace the dyuysyon withall but y t all that euer they do therin moste comenly is that they take it that they that fynde defawte at theyr abusyons and mysse order loue no prestes but do all of malyce that they do to destroye the chyrche and to haue theyr goodes and possessyons them selfe and that therfore the clergye thynke it a good dede to se them punyshed and therfore that is to saye for that same cause haue they punyshed many persons which mych people iudge to haue ben done of wyll c. And sayth also that they do coÌ„tinue styl after theyr old course preteÌ„dyng by coÌ„federacyes worldly polycye and strayte correccyons to rule the peple where he vseth these thynges whyche I haue here rehersed out of his .xiii. chapiter of this his newe boke and somwhat made them more playne with addyng therto his owne other wordes wryten in his diuysyon as you maye rede
in myne apologye fo 158. in the .xxvi. chapyter and answered there at length in the same chapyter and diuerse other in order there ensuyng of which this man hath answered to some very lytell and to the moste parte and the chyefe parte no thynge now is he so symple that he vseth the same thynges for a profe that he bereth the clergye very good wyll and mindeth not to brynge them in obâ—oquy whyche he wold we shold take for a thing playnely proued bycause he pytyeth lamenteth theym therin and so bytterly prayeth god to make them good and amende them ¶ Thys good man many tymes taketh recorde of his owne conscyence that he meneth well in suche thyngê as his wordes make many good men wene that he ment very nought And therfore wyll I now be bolde in thys poynt to take recorde of hys owne conscyence whyther hym self yf one that knewe hys name wold wryte suche a worke so to wchynge hym as hys wurke of dyuysyon toucheth there the clergye and wold therin vnder so many Some sayes say that he were as euyll as he saith there that they be for worse coulde lyghtely no man saye wolde hym selfe hold hym satysfyed and thynke that y e wryter ment hym none harme bycause he powdered hys shrewde slaunderouse some sayes wyth lamentynge and pityenge that the man is no better And wold he wene by his trouth that the wryter ment not to cal him gracelesse bycause he prayed god habundauntely to sende hym grace nor to call hym witlesse bycause he prayeth god send hym wyt Surely yf he can thynke so than shall he well shewe hym selfe so simple a sowle as men may well se that some wily shrewys begyle hym And on the tother syde yf he be wyser than to thynke so thaÌ„ he well sheweth hym self more wily in thys same .xiii. chapyter of hys than to meane so well in his wurcke of dyuysyon as he wolde here make men wene ¶ Now where he saith these wordê Also I saye not in all the sayde treatyse that the spyrytuaâ—tye make confederacyes agaynste the temporaltye but I saye that they contynue styll after the olde course in not doynge good dedes but pretendyng by confederacyes worldely polycye straight correccyons to rule the people Who coulde wryte thus but eyther he that were a man of very innocent symplenesse or he that entendeth to mocke of a shrewd wily dowblenese For sauynge that hys worde pretendyng signifyeth not in dede the thyng that he for lacke of language pretendeth here therby to go aboute not to do good to the people but by confederacyes with wylynesse and strayght correccyons to rule the peple what thynge calleth he this but confederacyes agaynst the people ¶ How be it syth thys chapyter goth but to the dyschargynge of hys owne personall entent that he ment not hym selfe malycyously what so euer hys booke speke I wyll not therfore wrestle agaynst it mych but wolde he were well byleued in that thynge But yet yf you rede the places of myne apologye and compare them with such partes of hys boke as I there speke of ye shall well and clerely se that though the manne in his own mynde ment it not him self yet the thynge that I saye was the menynge of hys boke The .xiiii. chapyter HIs .xiiii chapyter begynneth in the xiii lefe In the begynnyng therof he laboreth to proue that he dyd not as I in myne apologye saye that he dyd go about in his boke of diuysyon to make men wene that the spyrytual iudgê in this realme handeled men for heresye so cruelly that all the worlde had cause to wonder and grudge therat which thynge that I shold so say this good man myche meruayleth at For I sayed no more sayth he But that it were pitie it sholde be so and that it sholde be trewe that is reported that there sholde be such a desyre in spyrytuall men to haue men â—biure or to haue men haue extreme punyshement for heresye as it is saydeâ— that there is ¶ Rede good reders the .xlv. chapyter of myne apologye begynnyng fo 243â— and than shall you fynde this answere of his a very bare naked thing This maÌ„ answereth here as though he trusted that all the worlde were woodcokkys saue hym self and that hys fayre fygure of some saye were so wylyly founde that men had not the wytte to se therby what his booke meneth what wurke it goth about But this I dowte not but that yf eyther hym self or such another man wolde deuise me suche another boke eyther agaynste the nobylyte of the realme or agaynste the iudges of the same or agaynste the hygh court of perleament it self which were soone done yf a man in lyke wyse lyste to slaunder to bylye them nor it could not I wote wel what so euer he sayd therin be lyghty wurse or more false thanne that booke of hys dyuysyon concernynge the poynt that we speke of that is to wyt thys false slaunder of the spyrytuall iudges in mysse handelynge men for heresye as it hath ofter than ones before the lordes of the kynges most honorable couÌ„sayle vpon lyke false bylles and coÌ„playntes of partyculare persons by good examynacion ben proued and than if he that wolde make I say of the nobylyte the iudges or the perleameÌ„t suche another boke wolde brynge in all his false talys agaynst them vnder the selfe same fayre fygure of some say and many say they saye and than say that hym selfe wold say no piece therof but onely that it were pytie that it sholde be trewe that it were so as many folke reportei is so and than preche and pray god send them the grace that they do not so I dare be bolde to saye that there is no wyse man but he wolde bothe soone se and saye that the man wyth suche false lesynges went about to dyffame and slaunder them and make the people wene that it were so ¶ Than after this thynge so fetely skused he declareth hys wordes agayne whyche he spake in his dyuysyon of spekynge heresyes of lyghtnesse or of a passyon And bycause I answered hym in myne apolygye y t yf such thynges shold be excused by lyghtnesse by passyons than myght there passe by myche lewdenesse and myche myschyef to the begynnynge wherof groweth of lewd lyghtnesse of euyll passyons herin he sheweth that there is dyfference in dedys and y t some be more some be lesse And bycause I did put for samples manslaughter and aduowter whiche he thought was to high to be lykened to spekyng talkyng heresye he bryngeth it somwhat agayne to bace and putteth other saÌ„ples of one spekyng an angry worde yet wolde not kyll one one y t hath a passion of aduowtry yet doth not the dede sayth y t his treatise ment not obstinate dedely passyons but passyons of ignorâ—unce of frayltie done for lacke or good aduisement ¶ As for his passyon of ignoraunce he may put
thre wurshypfull wytnesses whiche stand yet all vnsworne that is to wyt Some saye and They say Folke say And than hath he now brought forth other two whome he maketh as me semeth bothe as wytnesses iudges to that is the good sely sowle Symkyn Salem and his ryght honest neyghbour brother Byzance Well I am content I y t all his fyue wytnesses be sworeÌ„ wel examined how they know the thyngê that they reporte than those spyrytuall iudges of whom they shall so speke and proue set it be layed vnto theyr charges And yf you fynde of suche so many and theyr dealynge so cruell or vniuste as this man maketh it or any thynge well towarde it than am I content that ye shall for them byleue all the remanauÌ„t the wurse And yet is y t I wysse somwhat with the most And than am I content that you byleue also that this man had for that cause a necessary occasion and a profytable to put y t tale in his bate makynge boke ¶ But in the mene whyle I laye agaynste hym for y t point and agaynst all his fyue wurshypfull wytnesses to the dede the reporte of y e gretest and the moste honorable temporall lordes of the kynges most honorable counsayle and other ryght wurshypfull temporall men of the same with them whiche by the gracyouse commauÌ„dement of the kinges hyghnesse haue examyned dyuerse suche complayntes at the suit of y e partyes theÌ„ selfe and theyr frendes haue theruppon founden the same complayntê false that thordynaryes haue done them but ryght and that wyth great fauour to ¶ And therfore as for thys poynte the treuthe beynge so substancyally proued vppon this syde by all hys fyue forenamed wytnesses on the tother syde sette I not fyue strawes And therfore good reders as for this poynt his puttynge of that pyece in hys boke of diuisyon had neyther necessyte nor profyte excepte it were eyther necessary or profytable to sow a euyll sede agaynste good folke of vntrew reprouable slaunder in hys owne wrytynge vnder the colour of some other meÌ„nes vnproued wordê ¶ Than resteth there as farre as I can se but one cause byhynde y t shold excuse hym And that is that it was a thynge profytable for the people to know that though a man of a lyghtnesse or of a passyon growynge of ignoraunce or of frayltye speke and â—alke heresyes at lybertye yet but yf he defende it opinatyuely he shold not be taken for an heretyke therby Deryly good readers yf thys tale were trewe yet wolde I wene as I sayde this tale vnto the people as good vnwryten as wryten a great dele better to ¶ As for thys good man or any man ellys I can not let theym to wryte what they lyste and saye they thynke it good be it neuer so badde in dede But I durste in my conscyence no more vse thys fashyon of wrytynge concernynge heresye than I wolde vse it in wrytynge any boke wherof I wolde speke of eyther treason or any other felony excepte some other necessary occasyon sholde happely dryue me therto as no good occasyon in hys booke of dyuysyon droue this good man therto ¶ If I were agayne to reade in Lyncolns Ine there were in hande wyth a statute that touched treason and all other felonyes I wolde not let to loke seke out and reherse whyther any heyghnouse wordes spoken agaynst the prynce were for the onely spekynge to be taken for treason or not ¶ Nor I wolde not let in lyke wyse to declare if I founde out any casyâ— in whyche a man though he toke an other mannes horse agaynst the law sholde yet not be iudged for a felon therby And this wolde I not onely be bolde there to tell them but wolde also be bolde in such french as is peculiare to the lawys of this realme to leue it wyth them in wrytynge to But yet wold I reken my selfe sorâ— ouer sene yf all suche thynges as I wolde in that scole speke in a redyng I wolde in englysh into euery mannys hand put out abrode in prent For there is no such necessyte therin as is in the tother For in y e places of court these coÌ„panies must nedes be taught it oute of whyche companyes they must after be taken that shal be made iudges to iudge it But as for the comon people to be tolde that tale shall as farre as I se do many folke lytell good but rather very great harme For by perceyuyng that in some thinges were no thynge the perell that they ferede some may waxe therin more neglygent and by lesse ferynge y e lesse dayngeour may soone steppe into the more And therfore haue I wyste ere thys the iudges of a great wysedome in great open audyence where they haue hadde occasyon to speke of hyghe mysseprisyon or of treason forbere yet the sayenge of some suche thynges as they wolde not haue letted to speke among them selfe ¶ If any man wold happely thynke that it were well done that euery maÌ„ were taught all and wollde aledge therfore that if he know surely what thynge wolde make hys behauour hygh treason or heresye than though he wolde aduenture all that euer were vnder that yet wold he be peraduenture the more ware to kepe hym selfe well from that as many a man though he byleue that he shall abyde greate payne in purgatory for hys venyall synnes dothe for all that no greate dylygence in forberynge of them and yet for y e feare of perpetuall payne in hell taketh very greate hede to kepe hym selfe frome those synnes that he surely knoweth for mortall ¶ As for suche venyall synnes as folke of fraylty so comenly do fall in that no man is almoste any tyme wythout theym though the profyte wolde be more yf men dyd wene they were mortall so that the drede therof coulde make menne vtterly forbere theym yet syth it wyll not be that men wyll vtterly forbere them the knowlege of the trouth is necessary for them leste euery tyme that they do suche a veniall synne in dede wenyng that it were mortall the doyng of the dede wyth the conscyence of a mortall synne myghte make it mortall in dede ¶ But of any such kynde of veniall synnes as be not so mych in custume and may be more easyly forborne I neuer founde any wyse man to my remembrauÌ„ce that wold eyther wryte or teche the comune peple so exactly as to say though you do thus farre yet is it no dedely synne but wyll in suche thynges syth the veniall synne it self is a drawyng toward y e dedely rather leue the people in dowt and in drede of dedely synne and thereby cause them to kepe them selfe farre of from it than by tellynge theym it is but a venyall synne make them the lesse aferde to do it and so come so myche the nerâ—r to mortall synne and assaye how nere he canne come to it and not do it tyll he come
al theÌ„ y â— were membres of that generall counsayle and in all the wyttê of al chrysten regyons that haue vsed and allowed y t lawe for good euer synnys reason wolde I say that he sholde at the leste haue layed some reason here wherfore y e lawe can not please hym that he whiche though he be not proued gysty of the dede is yet proued suspecte shold purge hym selfe after tharbitrement of thordynarye that is to wytte in suche maner wyse as thordynary sholde thynke conuenyent vpoÌ„ the qualytees of y t person cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ces of y e cause coÌ„sydered ¶ Suppose now y t there were none other maner of purgacion but by his neyghbours swerynge wyth hym that those wordê ad arbitriuÌ„ epi were not writen in the law were it yet reason to accepte his oth in what so euer maner the man wolde hym selfe deuyse it and with as few handes as hym selfe lyste appoynt and with what maner folke so euer hym selfe wolde brynge ¶ Nay syr For it may so be y t there shal be good cause why somtyme and in some place that thordynary sholde not putte some man to that kynde of purgacion which yf he dyd were he neuer so noughty he shold be sure of compurgatours peraduenture mo than inough ¶ For it hath ben sene in many cuÌ„treys ere this somtyme in england to that some euyll precher prechyng playne opeÌ„ heresyes shold yet if he myght haue ben put to such purgacyoÌ„ haue lacked none handes to lay on the boke with hym that he neuer spake suche wordes How be it where y e wordê are opeÌ„ playn heresye y e law hath ê“uided an other way for y e remedy good inough ¶ But thaÌ„ haue there ben some prechers such ere this y e techyng playne heresies to theyr familiars secretely wold prech in such wyse abrode that theyr wordê shold haue two senses one bote serue for eyther legge like a shypmans hose so shold be tempered as the peple shold haue occasyon alway to take them to the wurst and hym selfe yf he were examined wold say before thordinary swere to that he neuer ment but the beste ¶ Now whan it shold by good wytnesses appere y t his maner was such the peple toke mych harme therby alwaye toke his wordê so that they thought he so meÌ„t theÌ„ y â— he purposed by them to set forth aduauÌ„ce those thyngê y t were stark heresies in dede yf thordinary shold thaÌ„ appoint him with other coÌ„purgatours to purge this suspicioÌ„ were these suspicioÌ„s neuer so vehemeÌ„t he shold lacke no coÌ„purgatours to purge hym self euery weke thaÌ„ do as he dyd before And many good symple folke takyng him eueÌ„ as he ment shold fall into his heresyes y â— whyle wene while he preched so styll y t to byleue y e way were no perell ¶ And therfore those wise men that made y e law left y e thyng in thordinarys discrecioÌ„ to assigne hym that is proued suspect of heresy such kynde of purgacyon as the cyrcumstaunces of the person and the peple and the tyme shall most requyre ¶ And therfore wyll thordynary to some man so suspecte somtyme assygne hym to purge his suspycyon y t with his lewd maner of prechynge he is fallen in to the greate hurte of his herers that he shall openly confesse y t those heresyes that the people toke hym to mene be very salse here syes in dede and openly shall deteste them and swere that he so byleueth them to be and swere that he neither ment to teche theym nor neuer was mynded y t any maÌ„ shold take hym so nor neuer wold afterward teche nor hold heresies but abiure theÌ„ for euer ¶ And yet for the ferther purgacyoÌ„ of such suspicioÌ„ the ordynary myght also enioyne hym some certayn thynges to do suche as maye declare the more clereli y t he is not of such mind as open prechyng agaynste the selfe same heresyes the doynge of some suche thynges as those heresyes dyd stande agaynste ¶ And now by this purgacyon thys good shall he do that yf he wolde after preache the same thynges agayne though he vsed agayne such a nother wyly fashyon yet wolde his audyence then thynke thus as many as hadde any mynde to be good eyther this man meaneth nowe by his wordes to teache vs that poynt that hym selfe hath abiured and then lette vs not lerne the thynge of hym that he wolde in no wyse we shold or elles he meaneth to tâ—ache yt vs styll for al his abiuracion And then wherfore sholde we be so madde to byleue a false wreche y t wold make vs byleue now that that thynge were trewe whyche hym selfe hath openly coÌ„fessed and sworen to be false ¶ But then wyll happely this good man say that this abiuracyon is perylouse for iubardye of the relapse The parell of deth by relapse is not vppon euery abiuracyon But of trouth he that is abiured vppon such thynges proued as maketh hym not sleyghtly but very vehemently suspected yf he fall after into heresye putteth hym selfe in parell to fall into the fyre And very good reason yt is that yt be so And a man may some tyme be so suspecte of felony by reason of sore presumpcyons y t though no man saw hym do yt nor hym selfe neuer confesse yt but saye and swere to that he neuer hadde yt yet may he be founden gyltye of yt and theruppon haÌ„ged for yt and haue no wroÌ„ge at all ¶ And thus this prouysyon for purgacyon at the dyscrecyon of the ordynarye is not I truste so vnreasonable nor they so vnreasonable that made yt nor they so vnreasonable y t ratified it nor al they so vnresonable y t thys two or thre huÌ„dred yere haue accepted and allowed yt but that yt maye nowe stande by thys good maÌ„nys leue at this daye as well as yt hath standen all this whyle before But yet is there one thiÌ„g y t he taketh for a thing very sore For thaÌ„ is there sayth he a nother law that if he that is so proued suspect refuse to pourge hym self at the discrecyon of thordynary and be for hys conâ—umacy excommunycate that in that case yf he of an obdurate harte stande so accursed an whole yere he shal be punyshed as an heretyke And that ys as he sayth by the law Extra de hereticis capitulo Excommunicamus ¶ This prouisyon was made as I tolde you in the sayde generall counsayle And where he bringeth it forth as though yt were a very sore thyng and a cruell yt is in dede very fauorable For sauynge that I wyll not do as he doth go fynd fautes in their doynges that were so many so mych better and had so myche more wytte then I elles could I lay a lytle better cause to proue that prouysyon ouer fauorable then euer this good man shall fynde whyle he lyueth to proue that prouysyon to sore And surely he that beynge proued suspect
bere wytnesse that there is lytle witte therin and lesse good wolde growe therof yf folke wolde folowe his inuencyon and make of the lawes a chaunge ¶ Now that you haue good reders hâ—rd what we saye bothe before Now shall you se how substancially this man defendeth his fyrst wordes agayne These are so in this xvi chapyter of hys newe boke hys wordes Nowe by reason of this obieccyon I wyll speke somwhat father in thys mater then I dyd in the sayde treatyse And fyrste I wyll saye thus that yf ys to me a great meruayle to se mayster More so faire ouerseen or elâ—ys yf he be not oâ—â—rseen therin that then he wolde yf he coulde deceyue other and make theym so farre ouerseen to byleue that yt shulde be one lyke reason of a periured wytnesse that wyll loke lyke a lambe and saye contrarye to that he hathe deposed before and of a wytnesse that cometh to depose in a matter that he was neuer yet sworne vppon For when a wytnesse ys broughte in that was neuer sworen vppon the mater byfore the iudge maye not by the lawe refuse hym nor iudge any defaulte in hym oneles he knowe a suffycyent cause hym selfe in that behalfe or that the partyes do alledge yt but he muste byleue that he ys honeste good and indyffâ—rent tyll the contrarye be shewed as euery man ys in charytye bounde to do of hys neyghbour But when a wytnesse hathe deposed in the courte and then wyll offre hym selâ—e to depoâ—e to the contrarye that he sayde byfore the iudge maye wyth good conscyence mystruste and thynke that he doth yt of lyghtnes of mynde hatered or for corâ—upcyon of money ¶ If I were in thys poynte ouersene I nede not greately to be ashamed of the ouersyghte For then hathe there bene many suche other men ouersene also as I wolde not wyshe to be wyser And I no more entende to deceyue other men in thys mater thanne many other haue entended that vsed and allowed thys thynge that I defende now byfore such men as wyth the coÌ„dycyon that I were neuer worse I wolde neuer wyshe to be better This maÌ„ maketh as though it were great shame for me to liken to gether a person ones periured and a person that was neuer yet ones sworen I wolde in dede be a shamed to lyken theym to gether in euery poynte all though there were no more dyffereÌ„ce betwene theym but that the tone had a longe nose and the tother a shorte But I am not mych ashamed to say that for some purpose where he speketh of the tone I maye speke of the tother and lyken them well ynough to gether For I may say as I said that lyke wise as he that hath for sworen hym selfe may fayne hym selfe to saye trew and loke lyke a lambe and yet be a woulfe in dede euyn so I saye maye he that neuer was sworen byfore ¶ Ye sayth thys man but yet these two be not lyke For he that was neuer sworen there is no cause to mystruste nor presume that he wyl play the woulfe in a lambes skynne But he that hath bene forsworen is of reason to be mystrusted and yt is to be presumed y t he wyll play the woulfe in a lambes skynne ¶ Marke yet in the meane whyle y â— yf I could make no father answere yet hadde I wonne and he loste For his fyrst wordê were in his boke of dyuysyon that he that confesseth hym selfe forsworen shold in no case be receyued to swere agayne the contrarye bycause that though there seme a good cause to byleue hym in his seconde othe yet yt maye be that he dothe but fayne and I sayde so may he to fayne and dyssemble that neuer was sworen byfore And then yf the onely power and habylyte to fayne were a cause suffycient to put any oue man from berynge witnesse vppon his othe euery man were by reason repelled for euery man ys able to fayn This was as you se y e thynge that I then sayde Whyche thynge neyther this maÌ„nor any man elles is able to confute nor proue the forsworen man and the man vnsworen vnlyke in the poynte that I lykened them that is to wit in powre and abylyte to fayne And farther then that went not I. For I had no farther cause in answerynge hym there whyle he wente no farther there nor sayde none other but that he that was forsworen may fayne And nowe reade your selfe his wordes and loke whyther I say trewe ¶ But nowe thys beynge proued as yt is proued playne that he hathe a fall in those wordes whyche he spake byfore let vs a lytle se whyther wyth thys leysour after hys mater agayne consydered a freshe he haue caughte any better holde now And surely me thynketh not one whyt ¶ For where hys newe reason resteâ—h in thys that he whyche confesseth hym selfe ones forsworen is by reason mystrusted as one not onely to be able to swere false and wylyly cloke hys falshed vnder a colour of trouthe but also presumed that he so wyll do in dede to thys I saye that he sayeth trouthe as longe as there is no greater presumpcyon on the tother syde to serue for hys seconde othe But when the case happeth that there is as yt happeth in the case of this lawe than ys the presumpcyon that he wyll swere false gone as I shewed you byfore And then that presumpcion by a greater presumpcion beyng purged this man forworne and the man vnsworn are in the thynge that I resembled them for waxen well lyke agayne And that the sayde presumpcyon ys purged I shewed you byfore in that it is now a greater presumpcyon for his seconde othe that he wyll not foâ—swere hym selfe to the parell of his frende and hym selfe to ¶ Then goeth he farther and enforceth his reason with the reason of the lawe before y e peragraph Licet was made And therin thus he sayth In so mych that byfore that parag Licet was made the iuge myght none otherwise haue done of iuâ—â—yce but to haue refused to haue taken any farther examynacyon of hym And yf he hadde and the other had sayde contrarye to that he hadde sayde byfore hyâ— saynge hadde ben voyde in the lawe ¶ And thys thynge wherwyth he thynketh his reason made the sâ—renger maketh his reason a great deale febler For whyle the generall rule of refusynge suche wytnesse in all cases was made so longe byfore it appereth playnely that necessyte found the faute and caused oute of the generall rule this case to be made an excepcyon and so the lawe made by better delyberacyon ¶ And in such other horible crymes the same lawe is vsed in temporall courtê and was also before that law made by the chyrche ¶ But agaynste all thys yet thys man maketh me this reason what the makers of the sayde peragragh ment to put into the dyscrecyon of the iudge that yf he saw by euydent tokens that yt is not done of lyghtnesse
declare hym selfe indyfferent and to shewe also a great ouersyght vsed vppon my parte thus the good man Some say sayth And therfore yt semeth ryght expedyent that the sayd law be repelled And in lyke wyse it were good to repelle all suche lawes spyrytuall as be made coÌ„trarye to the kynges lawes and the custome of the realme And yf yt be sayde that yt were good also that suche statutes and lawes as be made and vsed by the temporall power to the grefe of the people were also reformed and that yf I were indyfferente I wolde make some mocyon so to hâ—uâ— yt And so it semeth maysier More doth parteâ—◠〈◊〉 that I ought to haue done to haue founde 〈◊〉 defaute in the temporall lawe as in the spyryâ—â—â—ll lawe How be yt bycause be wolde beare n◠〈◊〉 of the temporall lawe in that mocyon yt sâ—mâ—th that he somwhat mytygateth hys sentence 〈◊〉 and sayeth that yf I do so and that then I 〈◊〉 theym that ys saye the temporall lawes and â—ynde defautes at them as trewly as I do at theseâ— that is to saye at the spyrytuall lawes that then I shulde make two lyes for one and yet as I suppose I haue assigned some defautes in the spyrytuall lawe whyche mayster More can not tell howe they shulâ—â—â—e excused ¶ As to hys repellynge I se as I haue sayde no substaunce in hys wordes For we repell theym as farre as I se we can when we kepe theym not but make our owne lawes to the coÌ„trary And therfore as farre as I se all that he speketh of these repellynges saue onely for settynge forth of his dyuysyon is ellys but a very vayne tale ¶ But nowe where he sayeth that I wolde haue hym and seme to moue hym to fynde fautes in the temporall lawe to I wote nere whether his wordâ— haue herein more falsed or more foly but surely they haue both twayn and eyther the tone or the tother double ¶ For fyrste euery man maye se by his owne wordes euen here that I moue hym not to vse as for indyfferâ—ncye to fynde fautes in the temporall lawes as he hath done wyth the spyrytuall lawes when hym selfe here sheweth that I saye that yf he so dyd he sholde make double lyes This sheweth that he vseth in thys saynge playne and open vntrouthe And syth hys owne vntrouthe appereth vppon hys owne shewynge thys sheweth also that he vseth open foly ¶ And where he sayeth that he hath assygned some defautes in the spyrytuall lawes which I can not tel how they sholde be excused I answere hym agayne that vnto all lawes or all maters that he lyste to bable of am I not bounde to medle wyth but of these spyrytuall â— lawes that were made for the repressyng of heresyes wyth whyche oure temporall lawes are also conformable and concurrauÌ„t wyth whyche â— thys good wyse man for the ease of heretyques hath now founden suche fautes as a wyse man maye be ashamed to speke of I haue clerely declared that they nede not to be excused but that for the fyndynge of suche fautes hys foly to be myche accused Thys haue I proued so playne that he can fynde no great cause of glorye when he lokath backe vppon yt ¶ But nowe to th entent you maye good readers se that eyther this man is not so symple in hym selfe as he semeth or els that some wyly shrewes shamefully do deceyue hym I beseche you consyder a lytle eyther the foly or the crafte that the man vseth here ¶ He hathe brought you forth wordes of myne whych I speke he sayth of the lawes where as of trouthe I speke theym not of the lawes at all as your selfe shall well se. For though he dyssemble the place bycause he wolde not haue you reade yt yet haue I soughte yt oute for you in the .99 lefe of myne Apologye and there lo these are my wordes And thys pacyfyer aggreueth as myche as in hym lyeth the clergye of Englande for vse of the lawes not made by theym selfe but be commen lawes of all chrystendome If he wyll saye that he blameth but theyr abuses therof the trouth appereth in some place otherwyse in hys boke And yet syth he proueth that poynte but by a some saye he myght wyth the same fygure lay lyke fautes in the temporaltye concernynge the lawes of thys realme and proue yt in lyke wyse wyth a greate Somme say to And therin he sheweth him self not indyfferent whan he bryngeth in the tone and leueth the tother out And on the tother syde yf he brynge in the tother to than shall he make two fawtes for one For yf he handle them as truely as he handeleth these than shall he make two lyes for one ¶ Lo good readers consyder here I bysech you the maner of thys good man To the fyrst piece of these wordes of myne in whyche case is also the law that we be now in hand with al vt inquisitioÌ„is wherwith he wold in hys boke of dyuysyon aggreue the clergye of this realme whych neuer made the lawe he answereth not in all his boke one word And yet in his such maner of aggreuynge he vseth a very synfull and in hys not answerynge a very shamfull waye ¶ Than in the remanaunt you se good readers your self that I speke not of the lawes For whan I saye thus yf he wyll say that he blameth but theyr abuses therof yet syth he proueth that point but by a Somsay he myghte by the same fygure laye lyke fawtes in the temporalty to concernyng the lawes of this realme is it not here playne that I laye blame in hym for hys bylying of the mynistres of the spyrytuall lawes vnder a figure of Somsay as though they abused the spyrytuall lawes in myssehandelynge of heretykes wherof I speke more aftâ—r And I saye that by a lyke figure of Some say he might dyffame all the temporall mynisâ—res to and brynge theym in grudge and obloquy of the peple wyth lyke lyes of abusyng the temporal lawes to ¶ Now consyder good readers eyâ—ther how faâ—sely thys honest man hath hym self or ellys how folyshly he hath suffered false shrewys to make hym turne and chaunge the sentence of my wordes fro the men to the lawes to brynge in his maters vppon and say that I moue hym to fynde fawtes in the temporal lawes and put them in prâ—nâ—e abrode as he doth in the tother whâ—re as you playnely se I speke not of the lawes but of the mynisâ—res nor yet aduise hym to vse suche fasshyon wyth the temporaâ—l mynystres neyther leste he make two lyes for one ¶ Is not now thys chaunge of my sentence that he maketh here a very shamelesse dealynge eyther of hym selfe or of some shrewed counsayle of hys ¶ And now knytteth he to this handelynge the remanaunt of the sayde .xix. chapyter and sheweth that he speketh fyrste of the spyrytuaâ—tye bycause the causes of the dyuysyon specyally be growen by theym and layeth forthe a sorte
his wordes that folow next where he goeth farther thus And farther I wyll acertayne mayster More aâ— farre as in me is that I neyther hadde any sotle shrewes counlayle ne any euyll counsayle at the makynge of the sayde treatyse whyche he calleth the boke of dyuysyon as ys sayde before ¶ To thys I answere that all be yt thys good man and I be at myche varyaunce here in dyuerse thynges yet for the good and playne professyon of the catholyque faythe that I fynde in hym in good fayth I mych better loue hym then in that poynt to beleue hym For yf he sayde therin trew then were all the fautes onely hys owne in whyche as I haue often sayde I myche rather thynke that some sotle shrewes haue deceyued hym ¶ And besyde sondry other thynges that lede me so to thynke one very stronge thynge ys thys that euery man maye well se by hys boke that all suche as haue resorted to hym to tell hym any suche thynges as vnder some sayes he put oute agayne haue alwaye tolde hym euyll and neuer told him good And of misse handlynge for heresyes haue euer tolde hym lyes and neuer tolde hym trew For where as the punyshement for heresyes hathe ben very lytle any where saue euen here at hande and here but ryght done to them and that wyth myche fauour to they haue made hym good sely soule byleue that ordynaryes mysse handle men for heresye in maner thorow oute the realme ¶ Also where as such slaunderouse clamour hath bene sondry tymes of late in al y t euer complayned playnly proued false before the kynges most honorable couÌ„sayle not one man cam to tell hym nothynge therof nor not one some say therof wryten in all his boke and ouer this where as myne owne self haue playnly told hym â—he same thyngê in myn apologye by writing yet which most meruayle were of all saue for such wyly shrewes euery man may well se that he neuâ—r redde yt For he sayth not one worde therto And therfore yt is eth to perceyue what so euer hym selfe saye whych is loth of his goodnes to put other folke in faute y t there be some wyly shrewes so myche about hym y t they neyther suffer hym any thyng to here but y t them self lyst to tel him nor yet any thinge to rede but where them selfe lyste to turne hym ¶ And nowe syth I haue here answered these generalytyes of hys I wyll not longe encumbre you with any generaltyes of myn own but generally I wold y t al were well And so helpe me my sauiour none other wise but as I wold wishe none heretike one halporth harme y t had clerely lefte hys heresye and were well tuâ—ned to god But on the tother syde who so sticke styl therin rather wold I wyshe hym sorowe to his synne wherby there are many folke many tymes amended then prosperousely to procede in hys myschyefe to the losse of his own soule and other mennys to And towarde that poynte agaynste all male factours in the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye to wold I wyshe all good folke of bothe partes to agre and eche loue other wel and stycke faste to the fayth whyche were like sore to decay by the chauÌ„ge of these good lawes that thys good man goeth aboute to destroye For whose vnreasonablenesse therin the better to be perceyued wyth the dauÌ„geour and parell that wolde ensewe theron I wyll desyre you good readers to resorte to myne Apologye and begynnynge at the lefe 270 rede vnto the lefe 287. wherin you shall I truste be well and fully satysfyed And vnto all that euer ys in all that spoken thys man hath nothynge sayd ¶ And where as in confutynge the fautes that thys man fyndeth in the suyte ex officio and the lawes made agaynste heretyques I haue vsed some examples of the comen lawe whyche this man hathe labored to proue vnlyke and I haue therin clerely confuted hym a freshe yt maye peraduenture happen that he wyll now take a nother waye therin and saye that in such poyntes those spyrytuall lawes maye be reformed and those temporall to ¶ How be yt yf he so saye but yf men forgette what hath ben sayd before ellys shall they se that his sayenge wyll not serue hym ¶ For fyrste as I haue sayed ofter then ones all redy the same thynges in the comen lawe be not to be chaunged For yf they be there shall come therof more harme thanne good And yf yt happen one innocent to take harme by the lawe there shall fyue for one take more harme by the chaunge ¶ More ouer yf we sholde for that cause chaunge those teÌ„porall lawes that ys to wytte bycause some innocent maye somtyme take harme by them we must chaunge by the same reason all that olde vsed lawe that a man maye be arrested and remayne in pryson tyll he fynde suertyes for the peace vppon the bare othe of hys enmye that sayth he is a ferde of hym For by that law may some tyme an innocent take harme to And yet muste that lawe stande yf we do well For ellys shall there by the chauÌ„ge mo innocentes take more harme ¶ What trouble haue there many men in Walys by that they be compelled to be bounden to the peace bothe for them selfe and for theyr seruauntes and other frendes to And yet is the order there so necessary that in many lordshyppes yt maye not be forborne ¶ And surely yf we fall to chaungynge lawes vpon y e symple grouÌ„d we muste then chaunge so many that it wolde not be well ¶ Bysydes thys yf men sholde reforme and chaunge a lawe bycause that an innocent maye somtyme take harme therby then must they when they haue chaunged it chaunge yt yet agayne after that chaunge yet chaunge yt agayne so forth chauÌ„ge after chaunge and neuer cease chaungynge tyll the worlde be all chaunged at the daye of dome For neuer can all the wyttes that are in yt make any one penall lawe suche that none innocent may take harme therby ¶ How be yt yf a newe lawe were drawen and putte forthe to be made agaynst any such myschiefe as wold els do mych harme good reason yt were to take an excepcyon to the byl and shewe that innocentâ—s myghte be myche harmed by thys poynt or that and therwyth prouyde the remedye and putte it in the lawe and stoppe as many such gappes as then coulde be spyed Ye and yf after the law made men foud notable harme that good folke were myche wronged by it and the lawe suche that it eyther myghte be forborne or els the meanes founde to be chaunged to the better good reason wold it to make prouysyon for it ¶ But surely to come forth as thys man cometh here agaynste so good lawes so well made and by so great authoryte so longe approued thorow the whole corps of chrystendome in thys realme ratyfyed specyally by parlyament and that vppon a profe not wythout
The debellacyon of Salem and Bizance THe Debellaâ—yon of Salem and Bizans somtime two great townê which being vnder y e great turke were byâ—wene Easâ—er and Michelmaâ— last passed thys present yere of our lord M.v. C. thyrty 〈◊〉 with a meruelouse metamorphosyâ— enchaunted and turned into two englyshe men by the wonderful inuentyue wytte and wychecrafte oâ— Syr IohnÌ„ Some saye the Pacifiar and so by hym coÌ„uayed hyther in a Dialoge to defende his dyuysyoÌ„ agaynst y e Apology of Syr Thomas More knyght But now beyng thus bytwene the sayde Mychelmas Halowentyde nexte ensuâ—â—â—e in thys Debellacion vaâ—â—â—â—shed they be flâ—dde â—ense and vanyshed are bycome two townys agayne wyth those old names chauÌ„gedâ— Salem into Hierusalem and Bizancâ— into Constantinople the tone in Grece y â— tother in Syria where they may se them that wyll wynne them that can And if the Pacifier conuaye them hyther agayne tenne suche other townys with them embatayled in suche dyaloges â—yr Thomas More hath vndertaken to put hym selfe in thaduenture alone agaynst them all But and yâ— he lette them tary styll there â—he wyll not vtterly forswere it but he is not mych mynded as yet age now so coÌ„mynge on warynge all vnwyeldy to go thider geue thassaulte to such well walled townys wythout some suche lusty company as shal be somewhat lykly to lepe vp a lytell more lyghtly ¶ The preface Syr Thomas More to the chrysten readers IF any man meruayle as I wene some wyse menne wyll that euer I wold vouchsaufe to bestow any time about makynge answere to the pacyfyers dyaloge consyderynge his faynt his feble reasonyng I can not in good fayth wel excuse my selfe therin For as I sodaynly went in hande therwyth and made it in a breyde so whaÌ„ I synnys considered how lytell nede it was I merueyled myne owne selfe and repented to that I hadde not regarded the boke as it was wurthy and without any one worde let it euyn alone ¶ How be it good reders what one thynge or twayne specyally moued me to make answere to it and how it happed me to fall in hand therwyth and to spende and lese a lytell tyme about it to make the mater the more playne vnto you that thynge shall I shew you ¶ As soone as myne apologye was ones come out abrode anone herde I worde that some were very wrothe therwyth And yet in my mynde had there no man cause neyther precher nor pacyfyer no nor none heretyke neyther For I hadde but spoken for my selfe and for good folke and for the catholyke fayth without reproch or reprofe to any mannes person or wyllyng any man any harme y t were wyllyng to mende And who so were wyllyng to be nought styll had cause to be wroth wyth hym self you wote well and not with me ¶ But all this wolde not serue me for very wroth were they wyth me Howbeit theyr causelesse anger dyd not gretely greue me For I was not so farre vnreasonable as to loke for reasonable myndes in vnreasonable menne ¶ But than herde I shortely that thykke threfolde the pennys went to wurke and answeres were a makyng diuerse by dyuerse very great cuÌ„nyng meÌ„ And of this trayuayle of such great mouÌ„tayne hyllys I herd myche speche made almoste euery weke so ferforth that at laste it was tolde me for trouth that vnto one lytell pyece one greate cunnynge man had made a long answere of twelue whole shetys of paper wryten nere to gyther and with a smale hande ¶ But in good fayth I coulde but laugh at that For as for that pyece I was very sure that the cuÌ„nyngest man that coulde come therto neyther in tenne shetys nor in tenne querys neyther wryte as nere as he coulde sholde neuer answere it well ¶ For that pyece was the answere y t in myne apalogye I make as you se there vnto certayne sermons wherin my dyaloge was towched for wrytynge agaynst Tyndals false translacyon And wherin was also defended agaynst my confutacyon Tyndals wyse chapyter in which agaynst my dyaloge he laboreth to proue that the worde was before the chyrche in all his chapyter neuer towcheth y e poynt and the sermon that defended hym walketh as wyde as he ¶ It was tolde me as I say that answere was made to that place and what shyfte there was founde to the remanaunt that coulde I not here But to the fyrst poynt I herde saye that there was deuysed ' that where as I reherse that the precher spake of poysoned brede I rehersed hym wrong For he spake but of moulden brede And this pyece it was tolde me that in y t new answere it was reasoned at length set forth very lusteâ—y ¶ But come the boke abrode onys I shall sone abate that corage For fyrst syth he taketh recorde y t he sayd but mouldy brede yf I brynge wytnesse also that he said poysoned bred than can his wytnesse stande hym in none other stede but for to proue for hym that he sayd bothe ¶ Secundly shall I proue that he sayd poysened brede by such meanes that men shall se by reason y t though the tother were possyble yet was it farre vnlykely ¶ Finally shal I ferther proue that though y e man had sayd not poysened brede but onely moulden brede yet shall I proue I saye that as the case stode that same not poysened brede but moulden brede was yet for all that a very poysened worde ¶ Heryng therfore that this gaye boke was made of the .xii. shetys of paper lacked but ouerloking that many mo were iÌ„ hand y e shortly shold come out lyke as an husband whose wife were in her trauayle herkeneth euery hande whyle and fayne wold here good tydynges so syth I so myche herde of so sore trauayle of so many so cunnynge aboute dyuerse answeres I longed of theyr longe laboure to se some good spede and some of those fayre babes borne that they trauayled on ¶ And when these great hyllys had thus trauailed longe from the weke after Ester tyll as myche afore Mycheâ—mas the good houre came on as god wold y e one was broughte a bed with sore labour at laste deliuered of a dede mouse The moder is yet but grene good soule hath nede of good kepyng women wote what caudell serueth agaynst her after throwes ¶ Now after that the boke was out and came into myne handes and that I sawe the maner and the fashyon therof two thynges onely moued me to wryte and medle wyth yt One that I sawe therin folowed and pursewed the selfe same shrewed malicyouse intent that was purposed in his fyrst boke of diuysyon that is to wyt to make thordynaryes with fere of slaunder and oloquye seue theyr dutyes vndone and lette heretyques alone and ouer that wyth an euyl newe chaunge of good old lawes labour to putte heretyques in corage and therby decaye the fayth ¶ This was in dede the very specyall poynte
that made me wryte yet agayne And yet founde I so lytle reason in hys reasonynge that me thought yt sholde not nede For thys wyste I very well that who so euer had wyt and wold conferre and compare to gether the wordes of hys answere wyth the wordes of myne Apologye sholde sone perceyue that hys answeres were euyn very dull and dede ¶ But thenne was there a nother thynge that I consydered in yt whyche poynte vnprouyded for myghte soon deceyue the reader For all be yt the pacyfyer hath in some places put in myne owne wordes where yt pleased hym yet hathe he for the moste parte vsed a prety crafte to mysse reherse my mater and leue my wordes oute Ye and besydes this the man hath in some places lefte oute some of his owne mysse rehersed them to make the reader wene that in the reprouynge theym I hadde wryten wronge ¶ Now had I supposed to remedy those thingê make him an answere in thre or foure leues wyth onely poyntynge the reader to the places wyth wrytynge in what lefe he shold fynde the mater For the wordê ones redde the trouthe sholde shewe yt selfe ¶ But whyle I was thus mynded and went there about hys answere in his dialoge had fouÌ„den such a way wyth walkynge to fro kepynge no maner order and therwyth makynge me seke so longe for some one place y t I saw wel I shold soner answere hym all new then fynde out for many thynges the place that I sholde seke for ¶ I made therfore in few daysâ— this answere that you se. And some suche places yet as I had happed to finde I haue remytted the reader vnto in myne apologye where for his redye findyng I haue noÌ„bred himâ—the lefe And yet haue I for some folke done somwhat more to For I se wel surely many men are nowe a dayes so delycate in readynge and so lothe to labour that they fare in other bokes as womeÌ„ fare with theyr primer which though they be content to saye some tyme y e fyftene psalmys ouer y t the psalmys of the passyon to yf they fynde them al fayre lette out in order at length yet wyll they rather leue theym all vn sayde then turne backe to seke theym out in other partyes of theyr prymer ¶ And therfore leste some readers myghte happe in this boke to do the same some places of thapologye myche necessarye and not longe that wyth myche sekynge I fortuned to fynd out to ease the reders labour make all open vnto hym I haue put in also into myne answere here Ye and yet ouer thys in the thynges of moste weyghte I haue put into thys boke hys owne wordes to And so shall you good readers wythout any payne of sekynge haue all the mateâ— playn and open afore your yien that ye shal well se that I loue the lyght no lesse thenne thys pacyfyer wolde fayne walke in the darke For as the darke is in this mater all hys auauntage euen so ys veryly the lyghte in lyke wyse myne And where as there are some that coÌ„mende his answere for the compendyouse breuite therof and shortnesse I nothinge therin enuye the mannes prayse For lyke as no man can make a shorter course then he that lacketh both hys legges so caÌ„ no man make a shorter boke than he that lacketh as wel wordes as mater And yet when by the places conferred well to gether the feblenesse of his answere shall appere then shall he lese the prayse of shortnesse to For when yt shall wel be sene y t he sayth nothyng to the purpose then shall euâ—ry wise man thynke hys boke to longe by all to gether And that ye may wel perceyue that so it is in dede let vs now leue of the preface and fall vnto the mater The fyrste chapyter IN his fyrste chapyter he toucheth thre thinges One that I haue deceyued hys hope in that I haue not in myne apologye dyuysed some conuenyent wayes to reforme and redresse the dyuysyon betwene the temporaltye and the spyrytualty to whyche poynte I wyll answere after in the touchyng of hys seconde chapyter The tother poynt is that syth he neuer found any faute in any worke of myne of whyche for other â—ettis he neuer redde none he merueleth mych therfore that I make such obieccyon agaynste his and namely in that worke whych I wolde name an apologye whyche name sygnyfyeth as he sayth an answere or a defence ¶ Now where this good man declareth what thynge an Apologye ys and sayth that yt is an answere or a defence for whych cause he the more meruaileth that I wold in that boke wryte agaynste any treatyse of hys who neuer hadde any thynge wryten against any worke of myn as though that therfore my wrytynge agaynste his worke wold in no wise agre with the name of my boke I myghte answere hym that the touchynge of his boke was but an incident as I shew in the .100 lefe of my sayde boke and not my pryncypall mater and therfore of many noughty thynges I touche there but a fewe and suche as were in no wyse to be dissembled But now meruaile I myche more wherfore he shold so meruayle that I wold in y e worke which I name an answere or a defence wryte agaynst his worke which nothynge wrote agaynst myn For if the thynge that I wryte agaynst his wordes be an answere or a defence in dede thenne though it be not a defeÌ„ce for my self yet is the cause of all his meruayle gone For in that boke that is called myne apologye yt is not requyred by y e nature of y e name that yt be any answere or defence for myne owne selfe at all but if suffyceth that yt be of myne owne makynge an answere or defence for some other And as these titles Caluicium Sinccii Moria Erasmi be names conuenyent for those bokes of theyres though the maters in those bokes sygnifyed by those names do not onely pertein vnto Sinecius Erasmus or peraduenture to neyther of theym both at al so may my boke well bere the name of an answere or a defence yf it be an answere or a defence made by me though yt were all made for other folke and not one pyece therof made for me ¶ So is yt now that myne apology is an answere and a defence not onely for my formare bokes wherin the new brethern began to fynde certayn faâ—tes but ouer that in the self same parte wherin I touche the boke of dyuysyon it is an answere and a defence for many good worshyppefull folke agaynst the malycyouse slaunder and obloquye so generally sette forth with so many salse some sayes in that sedycyouse boke ¶ The selfe same pyece ys also an answere and a defence of the very good olde and longe approued lawes bothe of thys realme and of the whole corps of chrystendome which lawes thys pacyfyer in his boke of dyuysyon to thencoragynge of heretyques and parell
I saye in those places that the pacyfyer mysse sayeth the people and that the people be myche more reasonable that to take yt so And therfore here he belyeth me agayne ¶ And also let hym shewe you forth any one place in whyche I say that all the whole faute or the pryncypal faute eyther is in the teÌ„poraltye and than byleue hym the better in a nother mater And in the meane whyle tyll he brynge it forthe or ellys that you fynde yt your self ye may with reason at the lest wyse in this mater byleue me better thenne hym and I wil neuer desyre you to byleue me one day lenger For I haue neyther sayde the pryncypall faute in the tone nor y e tother And thus hath he made you of me thre lyes in one chapyter The .iiii. chapyter IN his .iiii. chapyter begynnyng in the .viii. lefe he fyrst sheweth a diuersyte betwene the sample that I put in y e .94 lefe of myne appologye of a pacyfyer betwene a man and hys wyfe and the thyng that I there resemble it vnto that is to wytte hys owne boke that maketh a lyke pacifycacyon betwene the temporaltye and spyrytualtye ¶ But surely the dyfference that he putteth semeth to my pore wyt greatly to a payre his parte For yf it be as he sayth yt is that where as the husbande wold be loth to heare any euyl spoken of his wyfe and therfore wil can suche a pacyfyer no thanke that wyll tell hym suche tales of her before his neyghbours the temporaltye wyll be glad to heare harme spoken of the spyrytualtye then was yt so myche the worse done to wryte openly to the temporaltye suche thynges of the spyrytualtye to fede and nuryshe any suche euyll delyte or openly to the spyritualtye beynge as he sayde lyke wyse affectyonate the fautes of the temporaltye eyther Howe be yt I can not in good fayth saye but yf I shold belye hym that on that syde wyllyngely he greatly passed his boundes but of ouersyght vnware he hath in some thynges slaundered y e temporalty to ¶ Then sheweth he farther wherfore he wrote those thynges in englyshe though IohnÌ„ Gerson wrote theym but in laten wherin to say the trouth he layeth a cause suffycyent wherfore that IohnÌ„ Gerson wrote them in latyne But whyther he laye cause suffycyent wherfore hym selfe shold not rather haue let them alone then wryte them in englishe agaynst the counsayle of IohnÌ„ Gerson hym selfe as I touched in myne apology that I leue your self good reades to coÌ„syder For I wil not myche stryue agaynste his excuse For I greatly shall not nede I thinke syth al his excuse amounteth to no more but that he ment that some laye men redynge the prestes fautes in englishe myght put them in remembraunce to mende them specially bycause he sayth euen in the same chapiter a litle afore that the temporaltye so myche delyteth to here of theym TheÌ„ goth he farther in y e same chapiter where as in his boke of the dyuisyon he wold haue semed betwene the teÌ„poraltye and the spyrytualtie to haue spoken indifferently to haue told them theyr fautes on both partiâ—â—gally here in the second syde of the x. lefe he telleth vs the cause wherfore he dyd not so saith in this wise I haue spoken of defautes and abuses in the spyrytualtye more then of defautes in the temporaltye bycause the spyrytualte oughte to be the gyders and gyuers of lyghte by they re doctryne good exaÌ„ples to the teÌ„poralty if theyr light be derkenes where shall the temporaltie then fetche theyr lyghter trewly I wote not where And I doute that then they both shall walke styl in derkenes And therfore yt is that IohnÌ„ Chrysostome sayth vppon Matthew the xxi chapyter That yf prestehode be holle sound all the chyrch florysheth and yf yt be corrupte the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth also and vanyssheth away Lette thye therfore as to thys poynt be the fynall conclusyon for thys tyme that who so euer proueth defautes to be in the temporaltye he proueth also defautes to reygne in the spyritualty therefore the defautes in the temporaltye wyl neuer be auoyded tyll the defautes in the spyrytualtye be fyrste reformed and therfore haue I fyrste spoken of some defautes that be in the spyrytualtye ¶ Surely good readers I like wel these wordes For they be very good they proue very well very trew yt is nor I ueuer sayd the contrary but haue in myne apologye playnely sayd the same y t euery faute in a spyrituall man though y e thyng were of it self al one is yet by y e differeÌ„ce of y e person farre worse and more odyâ—ouse both to god and man then yt ys in a teÌ„porall man But yet the worse that euery pryuate spyrytuall maÌ„nes faute is so myche is yt y e more harme to dyffame the corps of the spyritualtye openly in the face of the temporaltye in suche maner as the boke of dyuysyon doth of whyche I haue proued those that are weyghtye false and could yf I wold now lese tyme about yt whyle that that I haue touched ys suffycyent shewe the substaunce of al the remanaunt to haue lytle substaunce to ¶ And therfore the wordes of saynt Chrysostome whyche he sayeth for his boke were in part the very cause that made me wryte agaynste hys boke For surely as saynte Chrysostome sayth yf the presthed be corrupt the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth and vanisheth away whyche is wythoute any questyon very trouth for though saynt Chrystome had neuer sayde it our sauyour sayth as myche hym selfe ye be sayth he to the clergye the salte of the erthe if the salt waxe ones freshe and we ryshe wherin shal any thyng be well seasoned And you be the light of the worlde And therfore yf the lyghte that ys in the worlde be darke howe darke shall then the darkenes be yt selfe ¶ But now say I syth that y e prestehed beyng corrupted yt muste nedes folowe that the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth and vanysheth awaye and vppon Chrystes wordes yt muste folowe that yf the spyritualtye be nought the temporaltye muste nedes then be worse than they theruppon I conclude vppon the tother syde agaynste the pacyfyers boke that syth this realme hath as god be thanked in dede yt hath as good as faithfull temporalty though there be a fewe false brethern in a great multitude of a trew catholike meÌ„ as hath for y e quantite any other couÌ„trey cristened it must nedes I say folow y t the clergy though it haue some such false noughtye brethern to is not in suche sore maner corrupted as the boke of diuysyon goth about to make meÌ„ wene but as good for theyr part as the temporaltie for theyrs ¶ A therfore in lyke wyse I saye that vppon the selfe same wordes of saynt Chrysostome and of our sauyour Chryste the sayde boke of
my selfe or any of myn affinite lyste to call them one of the blessed brethern or of y e good brethern ¶ This is forsoth one the most symple sought out foly that euer I yet sawe set out with hygh wordes so solempnely For fyrst as for to call theÌ„ by the name of the bretherne is nothynge of my bryngynge vppe but a worde walkynge in euery mannes mouth whyche thynge I can not byleue but thys man wel knoweth hym selfe as straunge as he maketh the mater and bygonne by the good blessed bretherne them selfe as wel appereth vppon theyr owne letters inough to be shewed at sondry seasoÌ„s sent bytwene them ¶ Now touchynge the great fere perel that he putteth leste I or some of myne affynyte may slaunder any of the greatest of the realme yf we lyste to call any suche man one of the good bretherne the good man maye take his rest I warraunt hym shal not nede to breke his slepe therfore For fyrst as for myne affynyte is not very great For I haue none affinyte but as I thynke hym selfe hath and euery other maÌ„ that is to wyt eyther by gossepred or by maryage excepte he mene to call all the trewe catholykes myne affynyte and all the tother his owne And than whyche waye so euer he mene a sewde slaunderouse worde were as lykely to happen in one of his affinite as in one of myne And as for my self the pacifyer hym selfe is as hys some sayes shewe somwhat more set vppon an appetyte of slawnderynge than am I whych bere a lytell more reuerence to the great men of the realme spyrituall and temporall bothe and more honest mynd vnto the small all than wrongfully to dyffame eyther great or small by callynge eyther the tone or the tother any of y e blessed byched new broched bretheâ—hed excepte onely such as by theyr own open wrytynges or by theyr open wordes be playnly proued heretykes ¶ But yet coÌ„sider wel good reders what a wyse reason thys is y t he bryngeth forth For what parell is there of such slaunder more by this name of the good bretherne than by the tother name of heretykes is not y e olde name of heretykes as slaunderouse as this new name of the blessed brethernâ— what name can this good man deuyse vs hym selfe to call them by in whyche name the same parell of slaunder may not fall as well as in this Men may by thys wyse reason call theÌ„ by no name at al for fere lest I or myne affinite might yf we lifte call not onely any of the people but also y e grettest lordys both spyrituall and temporall by the same name and so brynge them in slaunder For the slawnder is all one what so euer the name be whan the thynge is all one that is ment and signifyed therby ¶ And this man vseth hym selfe in this place therfore very circuÌ„spectely for this poynte in this chapyter where he speketh of heretykes after his .iiii. sortys of folke before For he calleth them there by no name at all hym selfe but sayth of y e fourth sort These be the wurst sorte of people before all other excepte onely an other sorte of people whiche syre Thomas More in hys apologye calleth somtyme desperate wreches sometyme starke heretykes and somtyme the blessed bretherne and sometyme the noughty bretherne c. So that this good maÌ„ him self here lyke a true faythfull man affirmeth them nought such so nought as ther be none wurse But name as it semeth for fere of occasyoÌ„ of slaunder he durst here none call them hym selfe but sayth they be they whome I call thus and thus ¶ Well I wyl make no vow therof as yet but I wyll peraduenture at a leysour here after vppon better ad uisement vse the same cyrcuÌ„speccyoÌ„ and polycye that I lerne of his ensample here and whan I speke of suche maner folke geue theÌ„ no name at all my selfe but for a token that men maye wytte whome I mene I shall saye those felowes I mene y t saint Poule perdy calleth heretykes so that be all they that obstinately holde any selfe mynded opynyon contrary to the doctryne that the comen knowen catholyke chyrche techeth holdeth for necessary to saluacyon ¶ After all thys in the .xiiii. and the xv lefe he asketh me wyth a soleÌ„pne dreuen processe whyther I wolde not thynke it good and weldone that all such as haue authoryte to punysh heretykes shold before they punysh them ameÌ„de fyrst theyr own fawtes And I thynke yes in good faith that it were very well done and I wold that euery man wolde so do in dede that eyther sholde correcte heretyke or any malefactour els ¶ But than agayn I aske hym that though this were weldone yf euery man wolde waxe as good as another good man wolde wyshe hym and as hym selfe wold wysshe another man to be yet yf there were some y t were not so sodaynly so well dysposed as to mende theyr own fawtes so soone as the dewty of theyr offyce wolde requyre of necessyte that they sholde do correccyon vppon the fawtes of some other folke sholde they not yet do it for all that in the meane whyle and other folke to whom it apperteyned be boundeÌ„ to assyste them therin though theyr owne fawtes were not all amended yet ¶ To this question so he hath in the same place answered me yes as I haue hym to the tothâ—r And thus good readers this good man and I after our sore conflycte in the tother mater haue yet in these two poyntes stryken handes agayn and be god be thaÌ„ked metely well agreed togyther god holde it The vi chapyter HIs syxth chapyter begynneth in y e .xvi. lefe wherin he shewed that I in myne apologye misse take the letter of his sayd treatyce and he telleth which wordê But he telleth neyther in what place of his booke his wordes are nor in what place of my booke you maye fynde myne Those two thynges he leueth out bycause he wolde as he sayd in the begynnynge not folowe thorder of my chapyters but take y e waye that sholde be best to the playn openynge of the trouth But for as mych as me semeth that to the playn openynge of treuth the redyer waye is to reade fyrste bothe the places than this his answere after ye may therfore good readers fynd both hys wordê and myne in my apologye his in the lefe 123 and myne agaynste which he now reasoneth iÌ„ his answer ye shall fynd fo 127. And now good readers yf you reade and consyder those two places fyrst and than compare well the wordes of myne apologye there with the wordes of his answere here it shall suffyce for this mater For there shal you se wel that I mysse take not y e letter of his wordes For I say not nay but that hys wordes go onely agaynst spyrytuall men but his reason runneth out agaynst euery kynd of men spyrytuall teÌ„porall to And
a man in London betwene this and Michelmas shold they neuer haue semed lyke vnto our mater by that tyme that I had ones declared them the dyfference ¶ These poyntes and happely mo to was I wheÌ„ I redde his answere halse mynded as I saye to haue brought in and dysputed wyth hym vpon this mater For I was waxen with y e readyng of his answere very mery and waxen me thought a yong man agayn and semed set at a vacacyon mote with hym in some Inne of the chauncery bycause of hys comen entendement and his proper casys of lawe ¶ But than I consydered that as I was in the redynge of his answere mery so was hym selfe I saw well in the wrytynge wery and other readers that were no lawyers wolde in the readynge waxe almost as wery Than sawe I also that whan hym selfe had all sayed he lyked not hys owne all the beste but after all hys payne taken in the answeryng seyng that his answere lyked hym not he was fayne to fall to another waye telleth me that there nedeth none answere to that poynte at all bycause that there is no frute he sayth in that obieccyon ¶ Now therfore yf thobieccyon be frutelesse and therfore thanswere nedelesse and verily frutelesse to nowe to reply thereto were labour halfe loste and more And therfore good readers for as myche as to the answere made by the maner no law putteth vs ferther to reply y e mater is at a demurrour in thys poynt and we at your iugemeÌ„t wherein ye may vse your wysedome and iuge it euyn as you fynde it Wherin the best that he can aske is but to be dysmyssed iudge that he ment not to preferre the state of chauntry prestes before the state of relygyouse persoÌ„s but ment as he now declareth his minde whiche very few folke coulde before as I suppose haue gessed that the varyaunce bytwen prestes and prestes that is to wyt bytwene seculare prestes and seculare prestes is more to be lamented than bytwene prestes relygyouse or bytwene relygyouse and relygyouse bycause y e varyauÌ„ce bytwene prestes and prestes is more marked and more notable than any of the tother bycause the prestes go more abrode Now yf this exposicyoÌ„ of his mynde may serue to quyte hym now which I am content it do it is all I promyse you that it maye do For it wyll neuer serue hym to recouer dammages For he can neuer blame no man that perceyued not that before that is skant credyble yet ¶ But yet bycause he so myche incusketh the lacke of fruyte in many of myne obieccyons and that they be no maters of no morall vertue I wyll not answere hym wyth the lyke and saye that in many of hys pretended causes of dyuisyon is no fruit at all nor no morall vertue neyther as in procurynge the people to byleue vntrewly that the prelates handle men vncherytably and for heresyes vexe them wrongfully geue occasyoÌ„ that some peryshe both in body and soule whyche yf the ordynaryes had handeled them cherytably had ben in bothe twayne saued and that it wylbe very harde to fynd so myche as any one spyrytuall man suche as hym selfe deuyseth and aduyseth that none but suche sholde be suffred to be iudge in heresye and laborynge also the good lawes of thys realme and of all chrystendome to be chaunged to the ease of heretykes y t haue ben made for the repressynge of heresyes wyth suche other thynges lyke that are in his boke of dyuysyon mo than I euer wrote worde of yet in whiche as I haue often sayd for as mych as I seÌ„ y t he professeth hym selfe to hate and abhorre these heresyes y t these folke now holde whom saynt poule calleth heretikes I dare not now for hym but whan I forget my selfe call theym by none other name I wolde with good wyll that men shold thynke he ment none hurt But in the wordes of the wrytynge taken after the comen vsage and acceptaunce of spekynge as he wyll in thys his .vii. chapyter haue me take them there is neyther morall vertue nor frute but full vnfrutefull vyce ¶ But as I sayd I wyll not in defence of myneâ— answere hym with y e fawtes of his For myne were neuer the better though his be nought to But I saye that myne obieccyons in myne apologye be not frutelesse bycause they defende the truthe make good folke ê‘ceyue both what harme it were to byleue suche euyll lyes what dammage it were to put awaye suche good lawes and how vnreasonable it were in other mennes fawtê to take small thyngê for very heyghnouse and great or for them that in a felesshyp are fawty not to bere dyspleasure onely to theyr persons but to be at dyuysyon in generall wyth the whole company And this fruitis there also that though that boke saye the contrary straungers such as are here and can rede englysshe whyche are not ye wote well a few many yet perceyue by playne proues in myne apologye that not onely there is no suche great generall causes of dyuysyon as the booke of dyuysyon sayth that there is but also that there is no such great generyll dyuysyoÌ„ thorow the realme in dede These fruytes are there in many of myne obieccyons agaynste hys booke in myne apologye ¶ Now where as some of myne obieccyons peradueÌ„ture say but eyther lacke of lernynge in hym or lacke of naturall wytte syth his name is not at his boke but he speketh hym selfe vnknowen this profyte is there in suche obieccyons that wythout hys rebuke or shame the readers may by those fawtes perceyue that the wryter was not of any such specyall qualytees as the booke wherin so mych euyll was conteyned sholde be mych lened vnto for credence and authoryte of the man ¶ Finally the very selfe obieccyon wherof he speketh in y t seuenth chapyter of his in his new booke sayth there is no profyte in that obieccyon and that therfore it neded none answere but he myght graunte me all that euer I saye therin and yet none effectuall mater were there for all that therto I saye that loke who so lyste what I saye therin and he shall fynde that yf this man graunte all y t he shal grauÌ„te in hym self mych more ouersyghte mych more lacke of lernyng to than were requysyte in hym that wold put out bokes abrode and therfore hys wrytyng the lesse to be regarded whyle hys person is vnknoweÌ„ where as yf his person were knowen he myght be peraduenture perceyued for all that for suche a specyall man by syde that hys approued wysedome and lernyng well knoweÌ„ otherwyse myght for thestimacyon of his boke more than countrepayse some suche ouersyghtes as at a tyme myght happely to scape a right wyse man y t wolde wryte by candellyght whyle he were halfe a slepe ¶ But than I say ferther yet that in that obieccyon was a mater of no lytell effect For takyng that he ment as
tyme with this good man entre in this mater in to seryouse ernest argumentes But I shall shew hym a good mery cause wherfore that though I be of hys mynde therin yet I dare not aduise them there to The cause is that I se them haue so greate desyre feruent concupyscence towarde it that I am aferde to counsayle theym folowe it bycause of the scrypture that sayth Post concupiscentias tuas ne eas After thy concupyscences goo thou not ¶ I wyll make no lenger tale vpon this mater For if you rede my .xxvii. chapyter in whyche my wordes are that we now dyspute vppon I truste you shall not thynke theym so very farre out of the way but y t they maye be wryten without offence of Chrystes gospell well inough ¶ And also concernynge this word proude worldely countenauÌ„ce wherof we speke here vouchesaufe good readers to rede my .xxx. chapyter of myne apologye whych begynneth in the lefe .174 The .xi. chapyter HIs .xi. chapyter begynneth in the xxxvi lefe wherin fyrst he sheweth y t I reherse ryght and constre amysse thys worde of his And therfore ¶ You shall fynde my wordes good readers vppon these whole wordes that he reherseth here in the .xxxiiii. and .xxxv. chapyter of myne apologye of whyche to tone begyyneth fo 183 the tother begynneth fo 184. ¶ Here this man declareth that the worde of his boke whyche here also he well trewly reherseth do not importe that hym selfe sayeth y e thyng whych I by those wordes and amoÌ„g other by thys worde therfore afferme there that he sayth as of hym selfe But he sayeth that the wordes proue playne that he sayeth yt but onely of the reporte of mych other folkes thynkynge and not as of hys owne sayenge ¶ Surely neyther nowe nor in any place of myne apologye I neyther haue done nor intende to charge thys man that his mynde purpose was suche in his intent as the great lykelyhed of his wordes wold geue men occasyon to thynke But vn the tother syde that the wordes haue geuyn me good occasyon and suffycyent to saye as I there haue sayde who so rede the sayd two chapyters of myne apologye shal by the whole cyrcumstauÌ„ce of the mater very wel I suppose perceyue And you shall ouer that yf after those two chapyters redde you retourne to his owne declaracyon here in hys .xi. chapyter wel perceyue also that to kouer slyly that ouersyghte of his for surely I thynke yt was none other he leueth oute properly in one place this worde therfore wheruppon a good pyece of all the mater hangeth For in the ende of the .xxvi. lefe so thus he handeleth wylyly the mater And in that he sayth that I saye playnely those wordeâ— my seflfe he sayth playnely agaynste the â—etter of the sayde treatyse whyche ye that they haue punished many persoÌ„â— which mych peple haue iudged them to do vppon wyll and not that I sayd so my selfe ¶ Now good readers in this rehersall of hys own worde he reherseth his own wordes wrong For here he leueth oute as I told you the worde that maketh the mater Whyche he rehersed hym self in the whole context before For his wordis were not that they haue punished many persons whych mych peple haue iuged them to do vpon wyl but that therfore they haue punyshed many persons whyche mych people haue iudged them to do vppon wyl c. Nowe when he sayth hym selfe that they haue punyshed many therfore that is to wyt for the same cause and hathe before also shewed a cause of his owne dyuynacyon to hath vsed the same word therfore in y e same fasshyon before and this worde therfore which sygnifyeth for the same cause hath here in his laste clause nonecessarye place to the complement of the sentence folowyng it appereth that he sayth therin two thynges bothe that they therfore that is to say for y e same cause next before spokeÌ„ of the cause y t him self ther imagineth haue punished many and also that as he sayth yt so myche people iudged the same ¶ And this shall you the more clerely marke yf you tourne these wordes And therfore they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. in to these wordê wherof the sentence is allone And for that cause they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. ¶ And therfore that is to saye for that cause whych I before told you that is to wyt that you shold not perceyue thys poynte this man in hys laste rehershall as you haue herde bryngynge the thynge to the tryall lefte his therfore oute But reade my sayd two chapyters than as for the sentence of his open wordes I trust you shall byleue me As for the secrete meanyng of his mynde I pray you byleue hym For so that you byleue not the shrewd wordes of hys boke I wolde to chose you sholde byleue well of the good man hym selfe ¶ Now where he saith in y e .xxxvii. lefe that he thynketh I chaunge his mater bycause I wolde be lothe to haue yt reported that myche people take yt so veryly I chaunge not his mater But trouth yt is y t I am loth to haue that thyng so reported about For trewly y e report abrode is nought all though yt were not vntrew ¶ And were as for the farther maintenaunce of hys mater he sayth that yf I make serche therin to knowe the trouthe I shall fynde that myche people take yt so that many whyche haue ben punyshed for heresye the spyrytualtye haue done yt of no loue but of wyll for such euyll mynde as in the booke ys there ymagyned of them he hath of lykelyhed hym selfe made serche to fynde yt so For as for me though I go not aboute to serche that poynte of purpose yet I haue talked wyth many one in this meane whyle yet I thaÌ„ke god it is not my fortune to fynde out that same mych people that take yt so And yf there were myche people that so dyd yt were they re owne faute wherin I can not deuyse what the spyrytualty myght do to chaunge theym but onely praye god to mende theym And as for me yf there were myche people that so toke yt as I truste in god veryly there is not I wolde as my dutye were be surely very sorye for theym but in thys cause of trouth trewely I wolde not flater theym For though that sorte of people were neuer so myche in dede yet is the trouth in that poynt so clere agaynste theym that yf they re myndes were suche yt were bothe great shame for theym to saye yt and also great synne to thynke yt ¶ And surely that they re sayenge ys false and noughte in hys owne secrete iudgement you maye se good reders by this y t he laboureth so sore to put yt from hym selfe and wolde be so lothe to haue yt taken for hys owne And therfore whyle hym selfe thought they re sayeng so false he sholde
not haue told yt after them Nor nowe sholde he not sende me to serche and seke theym but to saue hys owne honesty leste men myght thynke he fayned he sholde seke out brynge forthe some of those shrewd sayers hym selfe ¶ A nother thynge thys man toucheth in the same chapyter concernynge that seconde sorte of people whome I saye in some places of myne Apologye that thys man calleth polytyques And here he declareth that he doth not so and proueth yt by lyke wordes spoken of a good mannys mouthe by an hypocryte of whome a man maye say Thys man vseth hym self as he were a vertuouse man and yet cal hym not vertuouse And so myght this man saye y t they spake heresyes as of polycye and yet call theym not polytyque ¶ But here must he now consyder y t who so speke suche wordes in such fashyon by an hyprycryte sayth yt in hys desprayse and in detestacyon of suche hypocrysye and therfore he that so sayeth sheweth y â— by such wordes he taketh not y e hypocrite for vertuouse And therfore reade good readers this mannys whole processe of hys thre sortes of people to gether whych you shall fynde in the .xxi. chapyter of myne apologye fo 123 and then yf you fynd his wordes of theyr spekyngâ— suche heresyes as of polycye in lyke maner spoken by hym in dysprayse of heretyques as he putteth here his sample of those wordes spoken by a good man in dysprayse of hypocrites not spoken by a way of geuynge theym by that worde as of polycye a colourable excuse for defence of sewynge they re heresye than am I contente that euery man take yt that I mysse reporte hym shamefully And ellys I truste loke in all the places in whyche I speke therof and you shal soon iudge that vpppon hys wordes vsed to suche purpose as he there vseth theym I may wel vse the wordê of hys polytykes in suche wyseâ—as I vse yt ¶ And as for the tynkar and the tyler that he speketh of in the ende of the chapyter and sayth god forbede but that theyâ— were dysmyssed and wente home aboute theyr besynesse yf they can by any reasonable and trewe allegeaunce so order theym selfe that yt maye appere that they oughte to be dysmyssed of iustyce therin holde I well wyth hym and god forbede ellys to for els myghte they lese betwene theym the tone the pryce of hys trewell and the tother of his clouted ketyll But loke good readers in myne Apology the .xlviii. chapyter whych begynneth fo 272 and that done I doute not but you shall fynde for the tylare and the tynkare for heresy there called in of offyce this good word so spoken here but a very vayne worde of offyce and that the tynkare wolde haue tynked oute of hys pannes botome a reason that wolde at the leste wyse rynge a lytle better then thys The .xii. chapyter HIs .xii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxviii lefe whych bycause yt ys a good swete sermone a shorte made vnto my selfe to put me in remembraunce howe I shold â—ere the lyke lyght fautê of other men as I some tyme fall in my self I shal take his chapyter in here euyn hole Lo good readers thus yt sayth MAyster More in the .217 lefe of hys Apology speking of defautes that as he thynketh shulde haue ben leyde for causes of thys dyuysyon concludeth thus If there be such a dyuysyoÌ„ wherby it appereth that he doubteth whether there be any diuysyon or not for this coniunccion yf purporteth alway a doubte And after in the same Apologye fo 241. he confesseth playnely that there is a dyuysyon and maketh no doute at yt and he calleth yt there the late spronge dyuysyon And so in one place to make a doute whether there be suche a dyuysyon or not and in a nother place to agre that there ys suche a dyuysyon semeth to be a varyaunce and contradyccyon in yt selfe howe be yt surely I do not intende to laye that varyaunce to hym as for any notable defaute For a lyke thynge may soon happen in any man by a lyght ouersyght But the cause why I speke of yt is this to put hym in remeÌ„braunce that he hereafter ought the rather to beare suche lyghte defauteâ— of oâ—her the more charytably syth he hym selfe hath lyke wyse ben oueâ— sene For we be all â—rayle ignorant and vnstable though we be estymed and taken as angels in cure conuersacyon And therfore ys yt sayde in the fyrste boke of the folowynge of Cryste the .xvi. chapyter that no man is in this worlde wythout defaute no man wythoâ—te burden no man suffycyent to hym selfe no man wyse ynough of hym selfe Wherfore yt behâ—ueth eche one of vs to beare the burden of other to comforte other to helpe other to enformâ— other and to instructe and admonysh other in al charytie And yf we wyll note well the sayde wordes we shall the sooner lerne thys lesson to do in al thynges as we wolde be done to and to do nothyng that we wold not haue done to be And that is as I takâ— yt one of the moste souerayne doctrynes that is to instructe a man how he shall in eâ—ery thynge conceâ—nynge hys neyghbour kepe hym selfe in a clere conscyence lerne yt who so may◠¶ Lo good readers fyrste he bryngeth forth myne ouersyght in contradyccyon vsed betwene myne owne wordes and after wyth good wordes and fayre excuseth my faute by suche ouersyght of frayltye as maye soone happen in a man And then he puttâ—th me after in remembraunce that I muste bere suche thynges the more charitably in other men syth I am ouersene lykewyse my selfe He fareth in all this tale as though we sat to gether playeng at post For fyrste he casteth my contradiccion as a vye to wyt whyther I wold geue yt ouer with a face And bycause that wyll not be falleth after to treatye and wold fayâ—e parte the stacke and diuide all such ouersyghtes betwene vs. But all this is in vayne for I am as sure of this game and there lay xx.li vppon yt as he that hathe thre acys in his hande ¶ For loke good readers in his own fyrste chapyter of thys booke of hys and there shall you se the thyng thaâ— shall serue me suffycyently shewâ—â— euyn by hys owne wordes that there ys no suche contradyccyon in myne And than loke myne auswere to the same and than shall you se yt yet more clerely Or ellys yf any man be lothe to tourne the leuys and loke bakke ye shall nede to take no besynesse in tournynge bakke at all For he soyleth hys argument hym selfe agaynste hym selfe euyn in the makynge therof and all wyth one worde vnware ¶ For nowe rede yt agayne and you shall se that he sayeth hym selfe in the tone place I saye If there be any suche dyuysyon And so bycause thys coniunccyon If he sayth inporteth all waye a doute therfore he sayth that fo .217 I doute whyther there be any
vp agayne For what so euer he say he shall not fynde I dare warraunt hym whyle he lyueth but that the thynges that heretykes are punyshed for be such thynges as be well openly knowen for heresyes to haue ben before condempned for heresyes by the comen knowen doctryne of the whole catholyke chyrch ¶ Now as touchynge hys passyons for frayeltye for lacke of good aduisement doth there no man kyll a nother euyn sodaynly vppon a passyon of angre for lacke of good aduisemeÌ„t doth neuer none vnthryftes vppon a passyon of lechery sodaynly fall together in aduowtry for lacke of good aduisement ¶ Ye wyll this man saye but these foâ—ke do y e dede That is very trouth in dede But yet they do the dede but of a passyon of frayltye for lacke of good aduisement In y t aduouâ—ry the malyce is the lacke of goodnesse in y e wyl to y e kepyng of goddê coÌ„mauÌ„dementes ¶ And yet euyn in those passyons to though the ferther dede be not done no man neyther kylled nor stryken nor none aduowtry done in dede though the lawes of the worlde for lacke of power to loke into yâ—â—arte can not punyshe the bare entent of suche thynges yet our sauyour saith hym selfe very sore wordes therin and sayth that hym selfe taketh theyr wylles for theyr dedys ¶ But now in heresye the wordes be the worke For not onely the spekyng but also the defendyng therof is in wordes to ¶ But a man sayth he maye speke heresye of lyghtnesse of a passyoÌ„ of frayltye yet not entendâ— to fall fro the fayth So may a man speke very lewde and ryghâ—e traytorouse wordes by hys prynce to of a passyon and of a frayltye without an inward entent and purpose to procure his destruccyon But than wyll this man peraduenture say that than be suche wordes yet no treason without some maner of ouert open actuall dede therwith Whyther they be treason or not yet in any englysshe boke that I wold put in prente I wolde as thus aduised aduise euery man for fere of treason beware of all suche lewd language and not vnder colour to teche the iudgys theyr part go tell the people without necessyte y t though they talke traytorouse wordes yet it ys no treason as this good man in hys booke of diuysyon telleth them that to talke heresyes is none heresye ¶ Nowe as I sayed before concernynge heresye whyche is the treason to god the outwarde acte therof by whyche men muste iudge whyther the manne fall fro the fayth or not standeth in the wordes And therfore both wysedome and reason wyll that folke well be ware vpon the parell of heresye that they forbere all talkyng of heresye as maye declare theyr mynde that they byleue suche heresye ¶ That I wyl well agre wyl this good man say But than I wolde they sholde be ware by meane of charytable warnynge geuen to theyr persons I wolde veryly wene y t in a matter so heyghnouse and of suche weyght wherof so mych harme may growe by the sufferaunce the spyrytuall lawe that geueth hym leue to abiure at the fyrste and in so great a cryme saueth ones his lyfe geueth hym a warnynge as charytable and as larg as in a cryme so perylous reson caÌ„ wel bere And y t shold we soon fele yf we wolde geue the lyke ly bertye for ones warnynge to euery lesse cryme than that shal shortly fele it in heresyes if besydes thaâ— we geue theym lesse fere and more lybertye in bolde talkynge and teachynge without other parel than warnynge ¶ For as for the order of warnynge that this man here prouydeth in this xiiii chapyter of his newe boke takynge a coloure and a pretexte of the gospell of Chryste that speketh of an order of monycyons requyrynge a tracte of tyme before any open denuncyacyon I wyl not mych stycke vpon For I purpose not to make a longe processe vpppon euery founde pyece of his dyuyses wherin thye good man is content to lese tyme and spyl paper But I wyl say this and say trouth that thordinaryes of this order that he speketh do vse in dede as myche as may wel be borne and sometyme I fere me more to ¶ For thys muste thys good man vndâ—rstande that thys good softe slowe sober order that he descrybeth here may not all alway be kept neyther in heresye nor treason nor some other great crymes neyther wythoute great hurte and damage to the comen weale and vtter losse and destruccyon of many a good symple soule that sholde by thys order alwaye kepte paryshe in the meane whyle ¶ Nor our sauyour ment not in hys wordes that if I wyst one that were walkynge aboute myschyefe that wolde go geue such drynke about as shold poysen them that dronke therof that thanne I sholde vse all that tracte of time rather then cause hym be taken vp by tyme at the fyrst sope that I se him geue any man to syppe vpon Nor that tract is not therfore to be vsed wyth them that speke and boldely talke heresyes about therby do plainly teche them though they byd not y e herers lerne them For as saynte Poule speketh of suche heresyes euyl coÌ„municacion corrupteth good maners whyche wordes though the greke poete MenaÌ„der ment by the communycacyoÌ„ of other fleshely lewdnesse yet the blessed apostle vsed them and applyed theym specially to the lewd communycacyon of heresyes whych wyth suche bolde noughty talkynge crepeth forth and corrupted as saint Poule also sayth lyke a corrupt canker And therfore as I saye suche a loÌ„g sober tracte before theyr callyng by the ordynarye course of y e law as not alwaye to be vsed of necessyte wyth euery suche maner man and let theym poysen other good symple soules in the meane season whyche they may do percase with suche communycacyon though they neyther mynded in theyr owne harte to make any other men heretykes nor to be he retyques theym selfe ¶ And yet wolde there besyde this some suche as well wyste theyr myscheuouse dealyng to be suche and so wel able to be playnly proued as the ordinarye coulde not without goddes dyspleasure let theym after passe vnpunyshed wolde at the fyrste worde spoken by the ordynarye to hym at large flyt oute of that place and as I haue in myne Apologye sayd and as we se yt often proued go kepe lyke scoles in a nother ¶ But yet because I haue herd say euen whyle I was wrytynge thys that the myld sober order whych this good man hath here in this chapyter dyuysed is very wel lyked and hath bene wel praysed wyth some suche folke as my self haue had some coÌ„munycacyon with ere this I wyl therfore not hyde yt nor kepe yt awaye from you but geue you good reders here euen his owne wordes fo 45. he sayth And nowe wyll I saye a lytle farther in this mater concernynge suche wordes that ys to say that yf any man now in thys
of Excommunicato capiendo and so to be brought forth out of the kynges gayoâ—e to anâ—were And it foloweth in the sayd .viii. chapiter thuâ— but surely as it is somwhat touched befâ—re in the .vii. chapyter it semeth that the churche in tyme 〈◊〉 haue done what they coulde to brynge about that they myght punysh heresy of them self wythout calâ—ynge for any helpe therin of the â—ecular power And therfore they haue made lawes that heretykes mâ—ght be arrested and put in pryson and stockes yâ— nede wâ—re as appeâ—eth in Clementinis de hâ—reticis Cap. Multorum querela And after at the specyall calâ—ynge on of the spyrytualty it was enacted by parlyament that orâ—ynaryes myght arest menâ— that precheâ— holde teche or enforme other in heresye there prâ—hâ—â—â—yte or that therof holde any â—onuentycles or â—châ—â—ys For â—â—me men thynke that the sayd Clementine was not of effect in the kynâ—es lawes to arrest any man for heresye But yf a man were openly and notably susâ—ected of heresye and there were suffycyent recorde and wytnes agaynste hym and there were also a dâ—uâ—te that he wolde â—lee and not appere wherby he myght infecte other it â—â—meth coÌ„uenyentâ— that he be arrested by the body but not vpon euery lyght complaynt that full lyghtly may be vntrue And that it wyll be â—yght expedyent that the kynges hyghâ—es and hys consayle â—oke â—pecyally vpon thys mater and not to cesse tyl it be brought to moore quietnes then it is yet and to se with great dylygence that pryde couetyse nor worldly loue be not iudges nor innocentes be punysshed ne yet that wylfull oâ—fenders go not wythâ—ut due correccyon And when maysâ—er More in his apologye hath recyted the sayd wordes of the sayd treaâ—yâ—e then he endeuoyreth hym selâ—e very moch to make it â—ppere that the mocions that he made in the sâ—â—â— treatyse in the place before rehersed be vnreasonable can not be brought aboute or els that yf they weâ—e brought aboute they sholde do hurte and 〈…〉 And to make hys sayenges the more acceptâ—â—â—â— he laâ—eth sometyme defaâ—te in my sayenges and sayth thaâ— I therby defame the iudges spyrytuall where I defame them not but say onely that it is â—â—pedyent that the kyngeâ— hyghnes and hys counsâ—yle se that pryde couetysâ— nor worldly â—one be nâ— iudges And whether thoo wordes amount to that effecte that maysâ—er More sayth they do that is â—â— saye that I defame all spyrytuall iudges it appereth eâ—â—dentely they do not ¶ Now good readers to the entent that you may the more playnely perceyue both the good mynde of thys good mannys fyrst boke of dyuysyoÌ„ and also his secunde boke here in defence of y e same take y e labour to rede the .xlvi. chapyter of myne apologye fo 232. And than shall you thynke I suppose y t all hys defence is so faint that I lytell nede to reply ¶ For fyrst where he sayth that I saye that in those wordes he dyffameth the iudges spyrytuall I wold he had rehersed my wordê with whiche I saye so For I am sure inough my wordê be no larger than y e treuth But that is hys vsuall crafte to leue out for the more part both my wordê the place bycause meÌ„ myght wene it were iÌ„ some part of my boke though they remember not where ¶ But now bycause he sayeth that it is euydent that those wordes of his do not amounte vnto the dyffamacioÌ„ of the spyrytuall iudges I haue shewed and proued in dede in one or two places of myne apologye that aâ—l the great mater of his complaynt vppon the crueltye of the spyrytuall iudges in handelyng men for heresy syth there hath bene very fewe troubled therfore in any dyocise in Englande or Walys by y e space of these xx yeres or .xxx. laste passed except onely Lyncoln and London and that therfore the false complaynt of mysse handelynge could haue lytle colour any farther then those two dyoceses and yet to saye the â—routhe neuer complaynt broughte forth by any suche man but in London dyocese nor yet not but in London and some pyece of Essex alone and the complayntes vppon examinacyon hadde by the kynges honorable counsayle alwaye founde causelesse and false syth thys is I saye so clere that no man can saye the contrarye but that thys is trew I declare and shew in my sayde appologye that where wyth hys false some sayes he defameth and laboreth to brynge in obloquye of the people all the spyrytuall iudges in the realme of wrong and cruell handelynge men for heresye all the men y t his false some says if they were trew dyd touche were yet in dede so few that he myght in a maner as well speke of theÌ„ by name And in very dede so few they be For they be as few or fewer then are the iuges eyther of the tone benche or the tother ¶ And therfore wheÌ„ he cometh now forthe vnder shadowe of a shrewed some saye and sheweth that the spyrytualle men haue a great desyre to put men to abiuracyon and to haue meÌ„ noted of heresy and that therfore tyll they leue that condycyon it were well done they sholde haue lesse authorytie that yt wyll be ryght expedyent that the kynge and hys counsayle loke specyally vppon thys mater and to se wyth great dylygence that pryde couetise nor worldly loue be not iudges nor innocentes punnyshed nor yet that offenders go not wythout dew correccyon ys not this a lewde colored slaunder and wythout any such thynge proued a shame lesse dyffamacyon ¶ If thys good man wold in lyke wyse wryte and put in prent a nother boke and there in speke fyrst of iusâ—yces in generall as it myght sâ—me to touche all the iudges of euery base court iustyces of the peace to and then by some certayn cyrcuÌ„staunces restrayne it in such wyse â—hat euery maÌ„ may se that he meaneth onely the kyngê iuges at wâ—stmynster â— say y t some say that specially of laâ—e the maters of comen plees be euyll haÌ„deled by the iudges and y t in writtes oâ— errour in pleâ—s of the crowne the iudges mysse handle the people sore and do mych wrong that some say that they haue this euyl desyre y t y t tyl they haue left them it were wâ—l done that they had lesse authoryte And theÌ„ after such a false folyshe some sayâ— com forth with his sayeng in approbacyon of his other sayng conclude saye thus myche farther it wyll be ryght expedieÌ„t therfore that the kynges hyghnesse and hys counsayle loke specally vppon this mater and to se wyth great dylygeÌ„ce that pryde couetyce nor worldely loue be not iuges c were this wyly folyshe handelynge no false dyffamacyon at all ¶ And nowe when he handeleth the spyrytuall ordynaryes wyth lyke wordê for heresye and his somesays false ymagyned lyes and though hys boke of dyuison laboreth to draw that false suspicyon farther yet hym selfe seeth by
rebuke of so many good worshypfull men make a boke of diuisyoÌ„ therin write euery lewde worde that any lewde folke or any false shrewes wolde tell hym Whose euyll tonges the spyrytualtye can neuer appease but yf to please theÌ„ they sholde dysplease god and without lettynge heresyes growe and go forth shold them selfe rather do euyll than let lewde folke speke euyll ¶ And now to th entent good reders that you may the more clerely se to how lytell purpose the pacifyer hath in thys poynt answered me ye shall vnderstande that my wordes in myn apology whiche he wold seme to answere well here were these fo 257. But yet is thys pacyfyer not so fauourable towarde folke suspected of heresye as to take away the power of the byshoppe for euer of arrestynge them and to dryue the ordynaryes for euer to sue cytacyons agaynst heretykes and processe of excommunicacyon but wyll haue he sayeth the bysshoppes power of arrestynge no lenger suspended thanne as longe as spyrytuall menne haue that great desyre to cause menne abiure or to haue theym punysshed for heresye as though he hadde well proued that they haue so bycause he sayeth that some men say so But now yf Some say be no sufficyent profe than is hys tale lost For than he sheweth no cause why that power of theyrs sholde in any case be more suspeÌ„ded now than in any time here before And on the tother syde yf some say be a good profe than the â—uspendynge wyll be as longe as a depryuynge for euer syth there shall neuer be any tyme in whyche there shall lacke one or other some saye to saye more than trouth ¶ Lo good readers here you se that vnto the secunde parte of these wordes of myne he answereth nothynge at all And than haue you sene before that vnto the fyrste hys answere is so feble that it had ben better for him to haue done therwyth as he dothe wyth the tother leue it vnanswered to ¶ But nowe goeth he ferther and saith Then sayth mayster More yet ferther that which is a lyghte suspycyon and whyche is a heuy and whyche wytnes be suffycyent and whych not must be weyed by the spyrytuall iudges and vppon theyr weyinge of the mater for lyght or heuy to folowe the arrest of the party or the leuynge of the arrest Now veryly in thys poynt me thynketh that mayâ—â—er More maketh a ryght good mocyon that is to saye that the mater shulde be examyned before the arreste For it hath ben sayd in tymes paste that in suche caâ—e the arrest hath many tymes gone before the examynacion Neuerthelesse vnder what maner the examynacyon and the arrest shulde be made in suche case I wyll make no deuyse at this tyme For happely mayster More wold anone fynde a defawt at it and therfore I wyll leane it to them that haue auctoryte to treate ferther of it and to dyuyse how to auoyde the mase that mayster More speketh of in hys sayd .xlvi. chapyter ¶ Now good readers this man maketh here as though I hadde geuen hym in my wordes some greate aduauntage to grouÌ„de some great mater vppon And therfore I shall reherse you what my wordê were that your selfe maye se how sore I ouersaw my selfe therin and what he meneth by the mase that he nameth here These are lo my wordes in myne apologye fo 257. yet is he content at the laste leste euery man myghte spye the perell of hys deuyce to temper hys deuyce in suche wyse that tyll the spyrytualty haue lefte theyr cruell desyre of abiurynge and punysshynge folke for heresye they sholde not be suffred to arreste folke for euery light suspycyon or euery complaynt of heresye How be it he graunteth that where one is openly and notably suspected of heresye and suffycyeÌ„t recorde and wytnes agaynst hym bysydes all that a dowte that he wolde fle wherby he myghte enfecte other than he grauÌ„teth it conuenyent that he shold be arrested by the body And therin he bryngeth in the Clementine and the statute by whcih the ordinaries haue power to arrest folâ—e for suspycyon of heresye and wold as farre as I perceyue haue the kynge reforme them after hys deuyce But yet syth whych is a lyght suspycyoÌ„ and whych is an heuy and whych is a lyght coÌ„playnt and whych is an heuy and whych is an open suspycyon and whyche but a preuy and whyche suspycyon ys notable and whyche is not notable and whyche wytnesses be suffycyent and which be not suffycyent be thynges that must be wayed by the spyrytuall iudges and vppon theyr wayâ—nge of the mater for lyght or heuy muste folowe the arrestynge of the party or the leuynge of the arreste we be come agayne as in a mase to the poynt where we beganne that be the mater greate or smale lest all the whyle they be cruell they shold iudge lyghte heuy and smale greate theyr arrestynge of any at all muste be susspended fro them and sende them to sue by cytacyon tyll men se that same mynde of theyrs of desyryng mennes abiuracyon and punysshement vtterly chaunged and ceace that is to say tyll there be no man lefte that wyll so mysche as saye that some men saye that they haue not lefte that mynde yet and make a lye agayne of theym than as those some haue done that haue so sayde all redy to syr IohnÌ„ some say now And longe wyll it be I warraunt you ere euer all suche folke fayle And therfore syth in the mean season by thys pacyfyers good deuyse hereâ—tykes maye go vnarrested I can not byleue that yf his way were folowed it wold be any good meane to make that wylful offenders in heresy shold not passe vnpunysshed as faste as bothe in the ende of thys chapyter the tother before also he calleth vpoÌ„ the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle and hys parleament to loke vppon thys mater after his good aduertysement and neuer ceace tyll they brynge it to effecte ¶ Here you se good readers bycause thys man wyth hys deuyces bryngeth hym selfe into a mase out of whyche he can not se how to gete he wold now set other folke to study there about And wolde make theym very carefull aboute a thynge lytle nedefull For it hath well appered well ben proued to that the spyritual iuges haue yet hytherto in arrestyng for heresy ryght well examyned and considered fyrst bothe the cause and the necessyte haue ben rather therin many tymes to slow than any tyme ouer hasty And therfore I maye and wyll say here agayn as I sayd there that I lytell dowte but that yf the kynges hyghnes do as I dowte not but his hyghnes wyll do maynteyne and assyste the spyrytualty in executyng of the lawes euyn those y t are all redy made agaynst heresyes coÌ„maunde euery teÌ„porall officer vnder hym to do y e same for his part though ther were neuer mo new laues made therfore yet shall both innocentes be saued harmelesse
of gryefes some parte very tryfles and some parte remedyed before hys booke of dyuisyon made and some parte very folyshe some part for all hys some sayes vndowtedly very false ¶ He hath there two leuys in the ende of that chapiter which any wyse man that readeth them shall I suppose iudge a very dreamynge tale And therin it semeth that as he hath bygonne wyth the spyrytuall lawes so he wyll after procede in the teÌ„poral lawes to And fayne wold y e man make me so fonde as to be hys felow therin and saith yf I know any such made as the perleament had none authoryte to make or wheruppon the people haâ—e iâ—ste cause to complayn it wâ—râ— weâ—â— done that I shold shew them And so he thynketh verily that cherâ—tâ— shold coÌ„pell me to do seynge that I am he sayth lerned in y e lawes of the realmâ— Veryly yf I knewe any suche yet wold I not folow neyther this good mannys holy exhortacyon nor hys godly sample neyther to do in y e tone as he hath done in the tother but yf I lyked hys doynge a lytell better than I do ¶ And yf I be lerned in the temporall lawes the lesse wyll I folowe his counsayle For the better that I were lerned in them the lesse wolde I wene it wold become me to prent and put abrode amonge the people a slawnderous boke of them to shame theym ¶ And vnto this point good readers I haue answered and shewed my mynde in myne apologye byfore wherto thys man geueth a defe eare alwaye And here vppon a soughte occasyon with a fonde wyly chaunge of my wordes exhorteth me to the thynge to whyche I made answere all redy And what I before sayde therin that he dyssembleth and sayth not one worde therto But in myne apologye good readers the .159 lefe these were in this poynt my wordes Hys other murmours grudges that he sayth he can not now reherse he reherseth after many of theÌ„ in his other chapyters whych I wyll passe ouer vntowched bothe for that the more parte of them be suche as euery wyse man wyll I suppose answere them hym selfe in the redynge and satysfye hys owne mynde wythout any nede of myne helpe therin for that some thynges are there also therin that are very well sayed and some also that be they good or badde I purpose not to medle myche wythall as are the thynges y t towche any lawes or statutes all redy made be they of the chyrche or of the realme defende them I am coÌ„tent to do yf I thynke them good But on the tother syde yf I thinke them nought albe it that in place tyme coÌ„uenyent I wold geue myn aduice couÌ„saile to the chauÌ„ge yet to putte out bookes in wrytynge abrode amonge the people agaynste theym that wolde I neyther do my selfe nor in the so doynge commende any man that doth For yf the lawe were suche as were so farre agaynste the lawe of god that it were not possyble to stande wyth mannes saluacyon than in that case the secrete aduyse and couÌ„sayle may become euery man but the open reprofe and redargucyon therof may not in my mynd well become those that are no more spyrytuall than I. And sure yf the lawes maye be kepte and obserued without perell of soule though the chaunge myght be to the better yet out of tyme place coÌ„uenyent to put the defawtes of the lawes abrode amonge the people in wrytynge and wythout any suretye of the chaunge geue the people occasyon to haue the lawes in derysyon vnder which they lyue namely syth he y t so shall vse to do may somtime missetake the mater thynke the thyng not good wherof y e chauÌ„ge wold be worse y â— way wyll I not as thus aduised neither vse my self nor aduise no frend of myne to do And therfore I wyll as I saye leue some thinges of his boke vntouched whyther he say well or euyll ¶ Here you se good readers myne answere to thys poynt concernynge the fyndynge of fawtes and puttyng theym abrode in prente whiche answere he dyssembleth agayne prouoketh me to the same as though he had neuer herd it whyche answere I wyll therfore be had as repeted in euery place where he prouoketh me hereafter to the same poynte And thus you se good reders that where as he hath not in any one chapyter of hys brought forth any reason yet yet hath he brought forth leste in this hys .xviii. in whiche he bosteth moost For by thys hath he playnely declared that he neyther vnderstandeth the law vt inquisitionis that he alledgeth nor so mych as the pore summe called Summa rosella neyther For that good man y t made it vndowtedly neuer ment of suche inquisicions as ours are of whyche maner he hadde happely neuer knowen none And as for the law they very fyrste wordes therof to hym that vnderstondeth them and consydereth them well suffycyently do declare that that lawe forbedeth laye men to medyll wyth suche maner knowledge of heresye as sholde be a let and impedement to the ordynaryes or other the spyrytuall inquisitours not suche knowledge as we take by our inquisicyoÌ„s that onely serue to helpe the tothâ—r forth bringe y e mater to theyr haÌ„des ¶ And therâ—ore syth I se well that this man in the laten lawes and SuÌ„mes hath so lytell vnderstandynge I shall be the more content in his lawes his SuÌ„mys so mych the lesse to dyspute or medle wyth hym The .xix. chapyter IN his .xix. chapiteâ— he declareth what he meaneth by confederacyes of the spyrytualtye and sayth he meneth coÌ„federacyes wherby spyrytuall men pretende to mayntayne some suche lawes of the chyrche and some such constytucyoÌ„s prouincyall as are agaynste the kynges lawes and the olde customes of the realme and putteth for a sample the puttyng of â—restes to answere afore temporall iudges the statute made de Silua cedua and the statute of Mortuaryes ¶ As for coÌ„ueÌ„tyng of prestê before seculare iudges trouth it is y e one tyme thoccasyoÌ„ of a sermoÌ„ made the mater come in coÌ„municatioÌ„ before the kyngê hyghnes But neyther any tymes synnys nor many yerys afore I neuer herd y t there was any bysynes about it And yet was y e mater ceaced long before any worde sprange of this great generall dyuision that his boke maketh as though there were such in a maner generall thorow the whole realme ¶ And diuerse statutes haue there sinnys ben made coÌ„cernynge y e same poynt And many prestes conuented as they were wont to be byfore and no by synes made by the spyrytualty therfore y t I here of nor I trow him self neither ¶ And in lyke wise men cutte downe theyr woodê euery yere in one place other of the realme eyther is there not asked the tytâ—e agâ—ynst the statute or yf some person wold with good wyll gete it therfore aske yt he geteth yt not yet
in dede ¶ For where he sayeth that yf I wolde remember my self well how often the coÌ„stitucion prouincial made agaynste the statute de Silua cedua hath ben put in execucyon of late dayes to the gryefe of many lay men I wolde not haue sayde so generally that there is not any one constytucyon prouinciall that he speketh of to any mannes gryefe or grudge put in execucyon in the tyme of any of the prelates that are now lyuyng and affermeth that the same constytucyon hath of late in the tyme of dyuerse of the same prelates that nowe be ben put in execucion to the gryefe and grudge of many persons within this realm Fyrst as towchyng myne owne rememberaunce in good faith I can not remember one And as to his owne remembrauÌ„ce vpon which he affermeth it to haue ben done so lately to the grudge and gryefe of so many he shall perdon me though I byleue hym not tyll he proue it or at the leste wyse name them that haue had the wynnyng them also y t haue borne the losse so that I may my self proue whyther it be trewe or not For excepte he do the tone ellys haue I good cause in y e meane whyle in this poynte to gyue no greate credence to hym ¶ For fyrste I can scantely byleue that vppon the persons bare worde for allegacion of the coÌ„stytucyon prouyncyall his paryshen wold let hym haue it And yf there happed any man that wold yet am I sure they were so few that it were so dowble foly to lay that for any cause of diuisyon which were done bothe but by a few and also not without the parties wyll and rather of his own pryuate deuocioÌ„ thaÌ„ for any fere of coÌ„pulsioÌ„ ¶ Now if the person wold take it of hys parishon byforce I se the comen experyence therin suche that I dare boldely saye the whole paryshe wold not suffre hym And yet yf it were taken in dede neyther sholde the person enioy y e profyte nor the paryshen bere the losse but sholde at the kyngê comen lawe recouer a ryght large amendes For well ye wote his daÌ„mages sholde be tared hym not by .xii. prestes but by .xii. temporall men his costes by the kynges iudges that are no prestes neyther ¶ Now yf this man wyll saye that many of the personys haue in y e tyme of the prelates that now be lyuynge or that were lyuyng at the tyme that hym selfe wrote those wordes recouered in any of the spyrituall courtê the tythe of such woodê agaynst the statute by force of that prouinciall coÌ„stytucyoÌ„ I wyll se this man proue it ere I byleue hym in it For the dayngeour of that suit may be pâ—raduenture more than I suppose the person wyll put in perell for his tythes And also the paryshen maye soone stoppe the suit in the begynnyng by y e kyngê prohybycyoÌ„ wherby y e kyngê iudges shall se whyther the person sewe for suche tythes or not wyll not therin suffre hym to procede ¶ And therfore tyll thys good man make me better proues of this mater than hys owne bare sayenge he geueth me no cause agaynste so many lettes to the coÌ„trary therin to byleue his word But I durst wel warrauÌ„t it that if he come ones to the namyng of the partyes so that the specialtyes of the maters may be sought out and made appere you shall surely fynd it vntrewe ¶ Now than to mayntayne withall hys great word of confederacyes he bryngeth forth that some prestes say styll that those tythes mortuaryâ—s also for al the statutes be theyr dewtyes styl that they which pay them not be accursed I haue espyed thys good man is a man of sadnesse no great gamener For yf he were he wolde neuer be angry for an angry worde spoken by a man that is on the lesynge syde Hit is an olde courtesye at the cardys perdye to lette the leser haue hys wordes And in good fayth in thys mater I here no suche talkyng at all And veryly this deuyce of his to put thys for a cause of diuisyon is in my mynde a very chyldyshe thynge ¶ But thanne goeth he ferther that prestes make partycular confederacyes to mayntayne obytys prestes wages and to haue more at byryalles than they haue bene wont to haue or ellys to shewe them selfe not content that is to saye to aske more than they can gete and bycause they can not gete it shewe them selfe not content that is to wytte lowre and loke angerly and say they be not pleased Be not these hygh maters and mete for that heyghnouse name of confederacyes ¶ And yet goeth he ferther wyth an other heyghnouse confederacy that yf a preste haue a besynesse to do in some countreys other prestes wyll as it is sayde so confeder whyth hom at arbytrâ—nentes and other metynges or ellys make theym suche frendes pryuyly that the tother partye though he be of right good substaunce a haue also good ryghte yet shall he sometyme haue mych a do to obtayne yf ¶ Is not here good readers a wonderfull heyghnouse worke and well worthye y e name of confederacies of the spyrytualte that but in some countreys nor there neyther of any certayntye but as some saye some prestes in the besynesse of a nother preste wyll and yet but somtyme neyther at arbytrementes confedere wyth they re good worde to helpe forthe theyr felowe or ellys to make hym frendes Ye and thenne what a myschyefe he sheweth that enseweth therupon The tother party hath he sayth myche a do to obteyn his ryght and yet that but somtyme neyther But as for lese his ryght by they re meanes he sayeth not that any man dothe Be not these heyghnouse confederacyes thynges mete for thys man to make a boke of diuysyon for And yet as though he had very well acquyte hm selfe he knytteth yt vp wyth these wordes And these be some of the confederacyes of presâ—es that I ment of and not the gatherynge to gether of the clergye at the conuocacyons ¶ In good fayth I sawe not howe he sholde meane any other thynge nor that neyther well For the name of confederacyes taken to an euyll parte as thys man taketh yt dothe sygnyfye a metynge and gatheryng to gether and a determynacyoÌ„ of certayne euyll folke conspyrynge to gether aboute an euyll thynge to be done wyth a couenaunt and promyse by eche of theym made vnto other eche to stande wyth other therin Nowe where as at conuocacyons good men come to gether to do good and therfore he coulde not call theym confedâ—racyes as he nowe sayeth he ment not to do yet I douted somewhat whyther he so ment or not bycause the conuocacions be at the leste wise comen asseÌ„blies to gether wher of he myght hap I thought to geue a good thyng an euyl name But these maters y t he now speketh of I could not ymagyne that euer he ment to cal them confederacyes wherin he