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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19649	An aunswer to sixe reasons, that Thomas Pownde, Gentleman, and prisoner in the Marshalsey. at the commaundement of her Maiesties Commissioners, for causes Ecclesisasticall: required to be aunswered Because these reasons doo moue him to think, that controuersies and doubts in religion, may not be iudged by the Scriptures, but that the Scriptures must be iudged by the Catholique Church. ... Written by Robert Crovvley.	Crowley, Robert, 1518?-1588.; Pounde, Thomas, 1539-1616.; Tripp, Henry, d. 1612.	1581 (1581)	STC 6075; ESTC S109107	34,598	58

haue put in thy mouth shal not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor of thy seedes seede now nor euer to the worldes ende O most comfortable promise that the Spirite of truth shall neuer departe out of the Churches mouth O fit Iudge appointed to be Iudge of Scripture for our profites without presumption Remember then I praie you what a sottishe opinion this is which is held to the contrarie that euery priuate man whom belike you wil imagine to be one of the Church shall haue good beleue to be his own Iudge in vnderstandyng of Scriptures as your Craftes men are and yet that the authoritie of the whole vniuersall Churche shall not presume to ●ake any iudgement vpon them Grauntyng this as you must needes that the Church whiche is our Mother as the Scripture saieth must needes teach all her children at first to beleeue in God seyng faithe must come by hearing and also to know the Scripture and yet that the same Church being the piller and sure staie of touch shall not be absolute Iudge imperial Scholemistresse to teache vs all how to beleue in God and how to vnderstande the Scripture For the blindnesse of your hartes I maie saie as iustly to you as Sainct Paule saied to the Galathians O Insensati c. O ye foolishe fellowes who hath bewitched you not to obeye vnto the truthe Which euen of Infantes and suckyng babes as it were is discerued as cleare as the Sunne So that you must not disdaine Maister Trippe to be tripped in this matter for a silie seducer to maintaine as ye doe all so grose all opinion beyng the forrest in deeds for al suche Foxes to litter their whelps in Therefor 〈…〉 to conclude this Assertion acquite your selues as well as you can why you maie not all bee iustly suspected to denie the descendyng of the holie Ghoste vnto the Churche for as muche as you refuse the Churches sentence in iudgement with whom the holie Ghoste is promised alwaies to remaine and in truthe to directe them Haec est fides mea quia est Catholica This is my faith because it is the Catholique faith Thomas Pownde The Aunswere to Pownde His sixt Reasons TO the six Reasons that you set doune to proue that to prouoke to be tryed by the holy Scriptures onely in the controuersies that maie arise aboute Religion is no orderly waie I might in fewe wordes aunswere thus The first Reason is fonde the second is false the thirde is foolishe the fowerth is fantasticall the fift is fradulent and the sixt is fanaticall Thus might your Pamphlet bee aunswered in sixe wordes as before you did reade it before so many witnesses as it pleased you to call to the hearyng of it I told you that I thought it might But least you should triumphe after your manner and saie that not beyng able to aunswere your Reasons at large I shifte you of with shorte sentences I will bestowe some more tyme whiche I could bestowe muche better in aunsweryng your rude Reasones I hope so that neither you nor any of your side shall be able reasonably to replie The first Reason FIrst you saie that suche controuersies maie not bée tried by the holie Scriptures because thei be mute and dumbe vttering to vs from the booke nothing but onely the wordes and not the sense wherein the life as it were of the Scripture doeth consist Howe fonde this Reason is I thynke your self should see For what sence can there bee in woordes that can not bee vttered by woordes Or what wordes can any manne vse in openyng the sense of woordes written but that the same beeyng sette downe in writyng maie as well open the cense as thei might beeyng spoken and not written you seeme to imagine that we would haue the holy Scriptures as thei bee written in bookes enclosed in coueringes to be Iudge of suche matters as you speake of for otherwise how can you call them mute and dumbe The Prophet Ieremie was commaunded to write all the wordes of the Lorde against Iuda and Israell and all other Nations in a booke and to cause the same to bee reade in the hearyng of all the people and so he did as appeareth in the .26 of his Prophesies that euery manne might bee turned awaie from their owne moste wicked waies and so the Lorde might be mercifull to them After this manner would we haue controuersies iudged by the Scriptures Not as thei bee written and kepte secret in hookes but beeyng reuereudly read wayed and considered with the circumstaunces of person tyme and place with all other necessarie circumstaunces so that the Readers beyng willyng to haue their controuersies ended dooe submit them selues to that iudgement that thei shall finde in the Scriptures so read waied and considered As for your Opinatiue man and wrangler that you speake of if he will stande still in his opinion as you your self doe notwithstandyng that it is made manifest by the holy Scriptures that his opiniō is not right he must bee taken for an Hereticke and after one or twoo warnynges reiected beyng subuerted as one that synneth euen condempned by his owne conscience The seconde Reason Your second Reason I doe call false for that you doe falsely reporte that the holie Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries And for that you do falsely affirme that S. Austen did sharpely reboke Honoratus for rushyng so boldely into the holie Scriptures where as he would not be so bolde as to take vpon him to vnderstand suche a Poet as Terence was without a Maister Firste I would wishe you to weigh well the wordes of S. Paule written to Timothie Doe thou saieth S. Paule to Timothie continue in those thynges whiche thou hast learned and are committed vnto thee knowyng of whom thou hast learned them and that thou hast known euen from thine Infancie the holy Scriptures which are sufficient to instructe thee to saluation through that faithe whiche is in Christe Iesus Euery Scripture that was written by diuine inspiratiō is profitable to teache to correct to reproue and to instructe in righteousnesse that the man of God maie be perfectly instructed to euery good worke If all Scriptures bee so full of harde and deepe misteries as you haue saied then can not any Scripture bee so profitable to teache c. As Sainct Paule telleth Timothie That all Scriptures be neither can the man of GOD bee thereby perfectly instructed to euery good worke We reade that our Sauiour Christe did sharply reprehende his two Disciples as he walked with them towardes Emaus for that thei were so dull and harde to beleeue that whiche the Prophetes had so plainly spoken Ought not Christe ꝙ he to sufter these thinges and so to enter into his glorie As though he should haue saied are you so doltishe and blockishe that you vnderstande not so plaine speeches as the Prophets haue vsed concernyng the sufferyng es of Christe And

appearyng to them afterwardes as thei were altogether in Ierusalem He telleth them that of necessitie all muste bee fulfilled that had beene written concernyng him either in the lawe of Moyses in the Prophets or in the Psalmes And that thei might vnderstande the Scriptures he did then open their vnderstandynges Whereby it appeareth that it was not the hardnesse and deepenesse of the misteries wherewith as you saie the Scripture is full that helde them from the vnderstandyng thereof but the dulnesse of their owne vnderstandyng because thei were as yet but carnall and therefore coulde not perceiue thynges belongyng to the spirite of God as Sainct Paule hath written The naturall man doeth not perceiue these thynges that doe belong to the spirite of God Not that we bee of our selues as of our selues sufficient to thinke any thyng but our sufficiencie is of God c. Now for that whiche you haue cited out of Austine concernyng the reprehendyng of Honoratus I would gladly knowe of you what Honoratus it was that you speake of One there was of that name to whom Sainct Austine wrote his .120 Epistle But that Honoratus was not like to vse any suche speeche to S. Austine Neither doeth Sainct Austine in that Epistle vse any suche speeche to hym as you saie he did But in the laste ende of the Epistle Saint Austine sheweth hym self to be of an other mynde then by your reporte your Austine seemed to be For he saieth thus Habes librum si prolixum tamen quantum existimo non superfluum c. Thou haste here a Booke saieth Sainct Austine whiche though it be long yet as I thinke it is not superfluous But doe thou loue the Ecclesiasticall writinges also and thou shalte not finde many thynges which thou shouldest neede to seeke for at my handes But by reading and ruminating or cuddyng if thou doe also purely praie vnto the Lorde that is the giuer of all good thinges thou shalt learne throughly all those thynges or vndoubtedly very many of those thinges that are worth the knowyng rather by his inspiration then by any mannes admonition Although euen in the same thyng wherein wee doe with right iudgement allowe that man that doth outwardly admonish vs well what other thing doe we then testifie that we haue an inwarde light that doeth teache vs and is our Maister Thus farre Austine Lette your freendes iudge whether it be likely that this Austine and this Honoratus would vse suche speeches the one to the other as you reporte yours to haue doen. One other Honoratus there was to whom our S. Austine wrote his .161 Epistle This man helde with Donatus and in that Epistle Saint Austine doeth exhorte hym to render a reason quietly in writing wherefore the name of the Church should at that time remaine onely among the Donatists There was also a thirde Honoratus to whom our S. Austine wrote his .179 Epistle This man Saint Austine calleth brother and fellowe Bishop and doeth instruct hym at large in the libertie of fliyng persecution wherein he vseth not one worde that maie bee wrested to that meanyng that you haue reported But you will saie there is yet one other to whome Saint Austine wrote his Booke De vtilitate credendi Suche an Honoratus there was in deede But when you shall reade that Booke with more indifferent iudgement you shall not finde that Austine to bee of your mynde Not muche before that place that you take holde of writing of the truth of the Scripture and noting that we ought to loue the Scripture before wee learne it he writeth thus Quicquid est mihi crede in Scripturis illis altum diuinum est c. Beleeue me saieth Saint Austine whatsoeuer thyng is in the Scriptures the same is deepe and diuine truthe is in it altogether and a discipline that is moste meete for the refreshyng and restoryng of myndes and vndoubtedly so moderated that euery manne maie drawe therehence enough to satiffie him self if so be that he come to drawe after a deuout and Godly sorte as true Religion requireth And immediatly before the place that you seeme to take holde of he By that interpretation that you make of the wordes that are written in the sixteene of Mathew ye maintaine the grosse errour of buildyng Christ his Churche vpon Peter the man and not vpon Christ the Rocke not withstandyng that the best of the Catholique Doctors haue written to the contrarie Yea and herehence come all your Indulgencies and Pardones with absolute power for your Pope to doe what he will without checke or controulement I might here take iust occasion to rehearse all those errors that haue bene and are holden by your sorte and ascribe them all to that whiche S. Austine speaketh of in the wordes that you cite that is That by your sort the good Scriptures are not well vnderstanded But studiyng to be breefe I passe them ouer To proceede in mine Aunswere you eatche holde of S. Peter And he must needes helpe you to face out your lye If S. Peter will haue your fauour he must needes beare you recorde that the Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries as you haue taught S. Austine to saie But when the place that you cite shalbe weighed with indifferent iudgement it will be founde that S. Peters meanyng was not as you take is to be Sainct Peter hath written thus But wee looke for newe heauens and a newe earth accordyng to his promise wherein dwelleth righteousnesse Wherefore beloued seeyng that ye looke for suche thinges thee dilligent that ye maie be founde of hym in peace without spot and blamelesse And suppose that the long sufferyng of our Lorde is saluation euen as our beloued brother Paule accordyng to the wisedome giuen vnto hym wrote to you as one that in al his Epistles speaketh of those thinges amongste whiche some thynges are harde to be vnderstanded whiche thei that bee vnlearned and vnstable doe peruerte as thei doe also other Scriptures to their owne destruction If you reade these wordes of S. Peter in the Greeke tongue wherein the Apostle wrote them you shall finde that the Relatiue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is of the newter gender and cannot by the rules of Grammer agree with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiche is of the feminine gender Wherefore it must be Englished thus In or amongst which thinges or matters that Paule wrote of and not in those Epistles that he wrote as in your application of Peters woordes you seeme to vnderstande him to meane But peraduenture you haue no good likyng of the Greeke Text neither of our Latine translations I will therefore set doune the wordes of S. Peter euen as I finde them in the translation that is allowed in the Counsell of Trent and as thei be writtē in an old written Bible that I haue in Parchment written I knowe not how many hundred yeares past Thus are thei written in the Bible Propter quod charissimi haec

other minde in any thing God wyll reueale the same to you also Thus you may sée that S Austine dooth not allowe the sentence of any man no nor the sentence of the vnitie it selfe which I vnderstand to be a generall Councell against the Canonicall Scripture The same Saint Austine wryting to Saint Ierome in his fifteene Epistle sayth thus Ego enim fateor charitati tuae c. I confesse sayth S. Austine I haue learned to giue this reuerende feare and honor onely to those Bookes of the Scriptures which nowe are called Canonicall that I doe firmely beléeue that none of the Authors of them haue in wryting erred any thing at all By this saying of Saint Austine it may appeare that he was of this minde that there may be errour euen in the decrées of your generall Councels Againe against the Donatistes Saint Austine wryteth thus Quis autem nesciat Scripturam canonicam c. Who can be ignoraunt sayth Saint Austine that the holy Scripture as well of the olde as of the newe Testament is conteyned within her owne boundes or lymittes and that the same is so preferred before all the latter wrytings of Bishops that concerning it there may be no doubt or controuersie at all whether any thing that is certainly knowne to be written in it be true or right And the writinges of Byshoppes which haue bene or be written after the confirmation of the Canon may be found faulte with if it happen that any thing therein doo swarue from the trueth eyther by more wyse spéeche of any other that is more expert in that matter or by the more graue Authoritie of other Bishoppes or the wisedome of menne better learned or by Councels yea and that the Councels them selues which are holden in particular Regions or Prouinces must without any doubting giue place to the authoritie of full Councels which are made of the vniuersall Christian world Yea that the full or generall Councels that are first holden may be amended by them that are holden afterwardes when by any experience of thinges that thing that before was shut is made open and that thing which lay hyd is made knowne And this may be done without any hautinesse of sacrilegious pride without any swelling throte of arrogancie without any contencion of spightfull enuie with holie humilitie with Catholique peace and with Christian Charitie Thus farre Austine Nowe I thinke you wyll confesse that your Catholique Church may erre or else that S. Austine one of the Doctors of that Church dyd erre For he sayth that the latter generall Councels may amend the former He sayth also that there may be no doubt or controuersie about the trueth of any thing that is knowne to be written in the Canonicall Scriptures Therefore blame vs not though we flée from the iudgement of the Church to the scriptures which can neuer deceaue vs. And as touching that inconuenience that you doo put vs in minde of which is the denying of the Scriptures by Atheists I pray you let me propone one question to you and so pose you as night to the quicke as you haue posed vs. What if your Church should vtterly be denied to be the Church of Christe Or what if those Atheists that be in Englande or else where should denie that Christe hath any Church at all or that there is or hath been any such Christe as we beléeue in Might not those Infidels thinke you laugh you to scorne for robbing your selues of your owne defence which is the worde of God which Saint Paule calleth the sworde of the Spirite But now you wyll returne to your purpose If conference of one Scripture with an other might giue lyght enough to all men Howe happeneth it that all sectes vsing that conference the sectaries can neuer agrée in theyr opinions c. To this not I but S. Paule shall giue you aunswer Oportet haereses esse vt hij qui probati sunt manifesti sint in vobis It can not be auoyded but that there must be heresies or sectes that they which be tryed may be made knowne amongst you Let S. Paule defend his owne assertion as he can I wyll betake me to that vttermost shift that you say we haue notwithstanding that you call it a weake one Saint Austine sayth that the Scriptures must be read by such as doo vndoubtedly beléeue that they are most true witnesses And these are his wordes Agant orando quaerendo bene viuēdo vt intelligant c. That is They must labour by prayer and by séeking and by lyuing well that they may vnderstand that is that they may sée in minde as much as may be séene that which they doo holde by faith And S Iames sayth If any man lacke wisedome let him aske it of God c. Thus may you sée that both S. Iames and S. Austine doo allowe of this shift which you doo accoumpt to be so weake and such intollerable pride Yea S. Austine addeth these wordes Quis hoc prohibeat imó veró ad hoc quis non hortetur Who can forbid this Yea rather who wyll not exhort héerunto doo you therfore accoūpt of it as you luste we wyll styll vse it as the ready way to attayne to that knowledge that is necessarie for vs. As for the reuealing of the trueth to the vniuersall Church for which Christe him selfe dyd praye we confesse that according to his promise Christe hath reuealed to them altogether and to euery perticular member amongst them as much as he knewe to be méete to be reuealed to them And so be the wordes of his promise Ille vos docebit omnia suggeret vobis omnia quae cūque dixero vobis He shall teach you all thinges and he shall put you in minde of all those thinges that I shall speake vnto you The pleasaunt pastime that you make with the course that we take in the searche and studie of the Scriptures I passe ouer for I knowe that he onely to whome we pray dooth know how faithfully we pray and whether with teares or without To him we shall stande or fall Iudge not you an other mans Seruaunt But you say we must néedes be all deceyued so long as we dwell in dissention and are not in errours only but also one of vs contrarie to an other And who now must be Iudge to trie the Spirites whether they be of God or no Onely the Church say you or else they shall not be tryed at all c. For the first Saint Paule hath tolde you that of necessitie sectes must be amongst men and euen amongst such as be of the Church of Christe And that because such as be allowed or tryed can not otherwise be knowen And as touching the other poynt Saint Austine sayth thus Contra insidiosos errores Deus voluit ponere firmamentum in scripturis contra quas nullus audet loqui qui quoquo modo se vult videri Christianum

is our mother It wyll be harde for you to finde it I wryte not this as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowse of Christe to be the mother of Christians in that sence that she is the Spowse of Christe But I write thus to let you sée that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vpon this being once graūted That this mother of ours that must néedes teach all her chyldren fyrst to beléeue in God for that faith commeth by hearing and also to know the Scriptures and is the pyller and sure stay of trueth must néedes be the absolute Iudge and imperiall Schoolemistresse to teach vs all how to beléeue in God and to vnderstande the Scriptures This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps as the prouerbe is If you had sayde thus The Church being the spowse of Christe is our mother and hath receyued commission from her husband and our father Christ to teach vs all those things that he hath taught and commaūded her to doo to teach vs his children to doo wherfore if we shall not hearken to her as to our chéefe Schoole mistresse vnder her husbād and our father so long as she teacheth nothing but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vs we shall dispise him because we despise her as it is written Qui vos spernit me spernit He that despiseth you despiseth me If you had written thus a man might haue made some sence of your wordes But as you haue written you séeme to make the gray Mare the better Horse And to spoyle our Father Christe of all his power that our Mother his Wife may not be found with out absolute power I sée not therfore why I may not for this blindnesse of your heartes say as iustly to you as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians O insensati c. Oh you foolish fellowes who hath bewitched you not to obey vnto the trueth which euen of Infants and sucking Babes as it were is discerned as cléere as the Sunne So that you must not disdayne though Maister Trippe doo tryppe you in your owne turne as a séely seducer to maintaine as you doo all so grosse an opinion béeing the forrest in déede for all such Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in And héere you séeme to haue had one fling at Maister Foxe also because you vnderstoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant to haue conference with you I meruayle howe Maister Turnebull escaped your frumpping pen. But to conclude this assercion Acquite your selfe as well as you can why you should not all be suspected to be Antichristians for as much as you doo so stowtly mayntayne that man of sinne that setteth vp himselfe aboue all that is called God and sitteth in the Temple of God and boasteth himselfe as though he were God Whome the Lord shall destroy euen with the breath of his mouthe And that worde that you woulde haue to be iudged by your Antichristian Churche shall iudge bothe Antichriste and his Church And that holy Ghost that came downe from Heauen vpon our Christes Apostles hath remayned and dooth still remaine and to the ende of the world shall remaine with his Catholique Church That is with that Church which beléeueth holdeth and protesteth that Catholique Faith that Iesus Christe commaunded his Apostles to teach Catholiquely to all Nations and sortes of peoples in all parts of the world Promising that the holy Ghost should alwayes remaine with the faithfull to direct them in all trueth and godlinesse of lyuing Thus hauing first considered the wordes of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures saying Searche the Scriptures c. I haue founde that the conclusion that you make vppon the manner of speach that our Sauiour vseth in that place of Saint Iohn his Gospell is not Secundum vnanimen consensum Patrum that is According to the agréeable consent of the Fathers and therefore condempned by your Fathers in the Councell of Trent in the fowrth Session Saint Austine dooth accoumpt acurssed whatsoeuer is taught other then out of the Scriptures of the Lawe and the Gospell Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Against the Letters of Petilian And in his booke of Christian doctrine and the .37 Chap. He saith that without the authoritie of Scripture our Faith dooth but stacker or stumble And againe in his .166 Epistle he sayth That bothe Christe and his Church are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures Basill sayth that whatsoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture is sinne Chrysostome in his second exposition vppon Mathew sayth that the true Church cānot other wise be known then by the holy Scriptures Homilia 49. Yea Saint Austine in his first booke that he wrote against the Epistle of Parmenianus and the second Chap dooth accoumpt it to be rashnesse to giue credite to any that dooth not prooue by Scripture that which he affyrmeth I dare not therefore giue credite to that which you haue written tyll you prooue it by Scripture As for your sixe Reasons that you stay vpon I haue conceyued and doo vnderstand what they be And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet you desire so haue I taken Pen in hande and haue done what I can to confute them And as I thinke haue doone it sufficiently If you can replie doo you take pen in hande againe and doo what you are able I wyll not refuse to trie the trueth of these matters with you or with the best on your side Haec est fides mea quia vera Christiana Catholica Apostolica This is my Faith because it is the true Catholique and Apostolique Faith Robertus Crowleus Subscripsit Henricus Trippe Hijs quae à Domino R. C. responsa sunt ¶ A breefe Aunswer to Maister Pownds six Reasons Written by Maister Henrie Trippe MAister Pownd hauing perused the aunswer of Maister Crowly to your sixe Reasons and finding them sufficiently aunswered by that godly Father whome you thinke not to be worthy naming as you write to me I thought good rather to subscribe to his aunswer then to frame an other How be it to take from you the aduauntage of glorying which I thinke you will easily take against me as not being able to answere you I wil breefly vrge you in some pointes wherein I sée he hath spared you And first I must néedes shew you that all your Reasons are set one a tottering foundation because y e Iudge her selfe is not cleared of suspition for you take it as a thing graūted that the Churche of Rome is the spowse of Christ which thing is in cōtrouersie betwene vs. It had bene therfore an orderly procéeding to haue dealt first with that matter and to haue put it out of doubt that your Reasons in appealing to her iudgement might haue bene the stronger Pighius one of your owne men confesseth that the question of the Church ought first to be discidid Thus you builde vpon a false principle and ouerthrowe the force of your owne