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A97377 A most necessary & frutefull dialogue, betwene [the] seditious libertin or rebel Anabaptist, & the true obedient christia[n] wherin, as in a mirrour or glasse ye shal se [the] excellencte and worthynesse of a christia[n] magistrate: & again what obedience is due vnto publique rulers of all th[os]e [that] professe Christ yea, though [the] rulers, in externe & outward thinges, to their vtter dampnatyon, do otherwyse then well: translated out of Latyn into Englishe, by Iho[n] Veron Senonoys.; Von dem unverschampten Fräfel der Widertöuffer. English. Selections Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; Véron, John, d. 1563. 1551 (1551) STC 4068; ESTC S113331 40,542 90

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that it ought to be borne or suffered no longer let them be cōmaunded that haue chosen him to put him doune agayn Now here shall be all the labour What the tyraunt wyll do to them that dare speake against his wicked tirannye for against them the do thys thyng the tyraunt shall exercyse all kynde of crudelytye handlyng them accordynge to hys inordynate luste and whome it shall please hym he wyll sleye and murther But it is a gloryous thing to dye for ryghtuousnes and the truth of God And better it is too be slayne for the defence of iustyce and ryghtuousnes then assentyng vnto vnryghtuousnes It is far better to be put to death for defence of righteousnes then afterwardes to be kylled wyth the vngodly and wycked What we owe to do yf he be come to the kyngdome by the swerde or by enherytaunce or dyssembling to be afterwardes kylled to the vngodly and wicked They that can not awaye wyth thys thynge let theym suffer and beare a vycyous and proude tirannie and wyth hym let theym loke too receyue an extreame punysshemente Yet notwythstandyng the hande of the lorde is stretched furthe and threateneth a plague Finally yf he hath inuaded or come into the kyngdome by anye other chaunce as by strengthe or by enherytaunce we muste beare hym till the lord vouchsafe to delyuer the oppressed leste any commotyon and tumulte be styrred vp by vs for the kingdom of god is rightuousnes peace and gladnes in the holy ghost Romay .xiiii. There be then many waies wherby tiraunts may be taken away and put downe but we do wante a feruent study of rightuousnes and of the truth we do wante the feare of god and deuilish wickednes reigneth eueri where For it could not be possible that a tirant durst do so muche except there were mo wycked by whom he should mainteyne and vphold his tyrannye But fyrst and formest the prophetes that is to say the ministers of gods word must be bold to rebuke the synnes and wycked factes of Prynces rulers Which is the most commodious way to ouercome tyrauntes none other way more commodious to ouercome tirauntes can be then if the preachers of the truthe do once determyne too dye they muste put their bodies lyues to ieopardy Yf Nero Dominitanus Maximianus wyth other could not by murtheringe and sheding of bloud roote out and vtterly destroye the doctrine of Christ muche lesse shall these braynlesse and madde princes yf we do stand vp boldly oppresse the gospel and the truth This is not spoken in derogation of anye godlye prince 〈◊〉 Therfore this is the first and chiefest way that the ouerseers be not blynde that the dogges be not dombe that they put them selues a wall betwixte the synnes of the people and god that they amend vp the broken hedge The second that we do always The lawfull wayes and meanes to get our selues out of myserable oppressyon and without ceassing praye vnto god whych in his wrath and indignation maketh the hypocrytes too reigne for our sinnes Finally and last of all that we thyrst for ryghteousnes that we amend our liues and chaunge our cōdytyons For yf we be godly and righteous it is impossible that a tyraunte do reigne longe SIM All Israel after the death of Salomon did swarue awaye forsake Roboam because he oppressed them to muche that of their own head iii. of the kynges and .xiii. chapter IOI Why doest thou not reade that whiche foloweth Why Goboam dyd not graunt the petityon of the people wherfore he was vtterly forsaken of ten trybes And the kinge did not graunt the people their petytyon because that god hath forsaken hym that he might or should perfourme hys word that he had spoken in the handes of Achias the Silonite to Hieroboam the sonne of Nabate Thou canst not proue by this that it is lawfull for any man to make insurrection of hys own head agaynst tyrants or euil rulers SIM I feare least thys doctrine wyll make men sluggish negligent dastards that if at any time the lorde doth sende a deliuerer they wyl be in doubt of the wil of the lord IOI Care for other thyngs when the lord doth begin and go about so hygh things he calleth not sluggyshe dastards and negligent persons Whē god wil put doune tyrauntes he doth alwayes styrre vp men meete for the purpose he geueth wisdom confidence boldnes he giueth lustynes of courage and strength bringeth all thinges to the appoynted ende Which thing we may se in Moises Gedeon and other The godly man doth directe al thynges to peace vnitie and concord Again he knoweth that the people is punished if prynces do rule gouerne wickedly The solicitud and care of a godly man These things do make a godly and faithful man heauy ful of thought and kyndell him with a certain studye of godlynes these thinges do make him to beware and circumspect not temerouse rash and ouer bold these thinges do constraine him to pray earnestly to god and to thinke both day and nighte vpon the amendement and redresse of those things that are done and cōmitted against god Then god doth open the waies wherby the desyres of the godly may be fulfilled nor doth forsake thē that put their truste and confidence in hym nor yet dothe repulse or put them backe that cry and cal vpon him SIM When the tyraunt seeth that he maye do al thinges without punishment he euery day waxeth worse and more hygh minded IOI What so euer he seeth let hym be sure that an vtter destruction doth hang ouer him Who soeuer doth misuse the longe suffraunce of god shall not escape punishment if he wyl continue s●yl in his wickednes For no mā did euer escape wtout punishment that dyd misuse the long suffraunce of god SI Why doo ye then euery where depredicate and say that they are like vnto Iudas the Gaulonite and not christians that wil not obey the magistrates and rulers No godly man doth resiste the magistrate IOI Because that no godly man doth resist the magistrate For sith that the apostles do warne byd vs to obey heathenysh magystrates who doth not se that it is an vnfittely thyng for a christian to shew him selfe disobedient to a christyan magistrate SIM That were wel sayd yf we had a christyan Magistrate Who is to be called a Christyan magystrate IOI I do cal him a christian magistrate whiche is baptyzed in Christe Iesus which beleueth in Christ doth confesse him and heareth hys gospell which he dothe also suffer to be preached emong his subiects nor doth persecute it withstandynge as muche as in him lyeth wickednesse and iniquitie or vnryghteousnes and punysshing the euil doers that do offend openly which doth bend al his care and study to this that the glory of god may increase may be promoted and set forth that men maye lyue godly honestly and quyetly in the common weale And thankes be giuen to god we do not want such now a daies emong the magistrates and high powers which thynge no man can perswade to you The Lybertines Anabaptystes do thynke no man to be a Christyan except he receyueth theyr doctryne and be baptized agayne For ye thinke no man to be a christyan excepte he doth cleaue too you and receyue youre doctryne and at length be baptized again by you though all these things be altogether repugnant to christyan statutes and publyke lawes No tongue can expresse how bytter and venymouse or poysoned railyngs ye do here vomite and spue out against the magistrate SI These thynges neuer pleased me IOI But yet they are done of them They do pycke and gather certain bytter and greuous sayinges oute of the psalmes and prophetes which afterwardes being learned without boke they do vomite againste the magystrates These thinges do please to stubburne disobedient persons The scripture doth call the iudges and magystrates gods because that they be here in the roume stede of god who soeuer then doth ryse or rayle agaynst them God shall punyshe him extremly where as gods word doth forbyd vs to raile against the gods for the holy scripture doth so cal the magistrats and iudges Peter doth liuely set theym furth vnder the name of false prophetes in his latter epistle and .iii. chap. O Citizins say they the magistrate is no chrystian but yet be obedient vnto him And thei their own selues wil not be obedient vnto him in the leste thing of the world What should I say They go aboute to abolish and put downe all magistrates high powers that so they may do what soeuer they list Paul saith If thou wilt not feare the hygh power do that which is iuste but they do fear the hygh power for they go about to abolysh and put it downe ergo they wyll do that which is euyll They are then the felowes of Iudas the Gaulonite and of Siba the son of Bocheri whych both for their hygh treason were worthely put to death Of Iudas the Galonit se Iesephus in the xviii boke of antiquityes and first chap. Actes .v. chapter He dyd styrre sedition emonge the people which he seducynge with hope of liberty did perish at length wyth many Of Siba thou shalt read in the seconde of kynges and .xx. Chapter Suche sedytyous personnes are in the scriptures called the chyldren of Belial Therfore my Symon if thou wylt folow my councel thou shalt leaue this false opinion and afterwardes stycke to the truth and be obedient to the Magistrates and rulers SIM Thou hast well satisfyed my mynd therfore I wyll folowe thy councell FINIS Imprynted the third daye of Aprill Anno. Do. 1551. ¶ At Worceter in the hygh strete by Ihon Ofwen ¶ They be also to sell at Shrewesbury ☞ Cum priuilegio ad imprimendum solum