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book_n call_v principle_n quaker_n 1,601 5 10.2010 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A50497 A brief narrative of the second meeting between the people called Quakers and Baptists at the Meeting-place, near Wheeler-street, London, the 16th of the 8th moneth, 167[4] / published for information by W.M. ... [et al.] Mead, William, 1628-1713.; Hicks, Thomas, 17th cent. 1674 (1674) Wing M1565A; ESTC R29521 29,398 72

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say_v i_o wish_v there_o be_v in_o the_o land_n such_o zeal_n as_o to_o abominate_a the_o name_n of_o jesuit_n but_o i_o be_o of_o the_o mind_n that_o w._n p._n himself_o will_v say_v that_o there_o be_v too_o little_a of_o that_o spirit_n in_o the_o land_n but_o be_v not_o you_o a_o catholic_n russel_n i_o have_v two_o reason_n to_o offer_v why_o i_o say_v so_o the_o people_n desire_v that_o the_o stranger_n may_v speak_v to_o clear_v himself_o strang._n i_o do_v not_o say_v i_o be_o no_o catholic_n but_o i_o say_v i_o be_o no_o roman-catholick_n that_o be_v to_o say_v i_o be_o not_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n j._n ives_n what_o be_v you_o then_o be_v you_o a_o hobist_n strang._n '_o i_o never_o read_v his_o book_n bapt._n do_v any_o of_o you_o know_v he_o answ_n i_o have_v know_v he_o to_o be_v a_o trader_n in_o london_n this_o fourteen_o year_n strang._n '_o capt._n bromel_n know_v i_o and_n other_o know_v he_o to_o the_o satisfaction_n of_o the_o meeting_n w._n p._n now_o 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man._n 1_o stranger_n we_o have_v be_v here_o a_o great_a while_n and_o i_o suppose_v the_o auditory_a can_v make_v much_o to_o their_o content_n out_o of_o what_o have_v pass_v among_o you_o i_o offer_v again_o that_o you_o will_v determine_v who_o be_v plaintiff_n and_o who_o defendant_n who_o opponent_n and_o who_o respondent_fw-la ●f_o you_o can_v come_v to_o this_o it_o be_v as_o good_a to_o depart_v j._n ives_n we_o be_v willing_a here_o to_o prove_v the_o quaker_n to_o be_v no_o christian_n the_o people_n make_v a_o noise_n and_o be_v discontent_v t._n plant_v you_o call_v upon_o we_o at_o our_o meeting_n to_o call_v upon_o the_o people_n for_o silence_n why_o do_v not_o you_o do_v the_o same_o here_o and_o call_v for_o silence_n w._n penn_n do_v not_o reflect_v we_o have_v call_v upon_o they_o and_o urge_v they_o to_o be_v silent_a nor_o do_v we_o believe_v it_o be_v our_o friend_n that_o make_v the_o disturbance_n t._n plant_v if_o we_o say_v nothing_o with_o respect_n to_o 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interrupt_v by_o j._n i._n g._n whitehead_n the_o auditory_a may_v take_v notice_n that_o though_o j._n ives_n have_v undertake_v f._n hick_n cause_n that_o he_o be_v unprepared_a for_o he_o say_v he_o do_v not_o read_v the_o book_n till_o last_v night_n now_o ought_v he_o not_o better_a to_o have_v consider_v the_o matter_n before_o he_o have_v engage_v to_o personate_v t._n h._n if_o they_o will_v not_o pursue_v the_o charge_n we_o shall_v conclude_v they_o be_v afraid_a we_o do_v suppose_v the_o way_n they_o go_v be_v not_o the_o way_n they_o will_v be_v deal_v with_o they_o that_o be_v to_o pick_v thing_n out_o of_o our_o book_n now_o if_o they_o will_v prove_v we_o no_o christian_n it_o must_v be_v by_o somewhat_o that_o be_v general_o own_a by_o the_o quaker_n and_o you_o know_v i_o offer_v in_o the_o same_o manner_n to_o prove_v baptist_n no_o christian_n that_o be_v thus_o some_o baptist_n have_v deny_v the_o divinity_n of_o christ_n immortality_n of_o the_o soul_n the_o general_a love_n of_o god_n to_o all_o man_n therefore_o in_o their_o manner_n i_o may_v as_o well_o from_o thence_o prove_v the_o baptist_n no_o christian_n as_o they_o have_v do_v against_o we_o i_o say_v some_o baptist_n have_v be_v of_o the_o opinion_n aforesaid_a now_o if_o the_o whole_a baptist_n will_v be_v conclude_v by_o those_o particular_n than_o they_o do_v as_o they_o will_v be_v do_v by_o the_o baptist_n be_v divide_v and_o some_o may_v have_v unadvised_o lay_v down_o argument_n against_o the_o divinity_n of_o christ_n now_o if_o the_o baptist_n will_v go_v from_o particular_n to_o general_n let_v they_o consider_v if_o they_o will_v be_v
thus_o do_v by_o then_o in_o the_o like_a manner_n i_o will_v prove_v the_o baptist_n be_v no_o christian_n i._o ives_n g._n whitehead_n have_v intimate_v that_o our_o collection_n from_o which_o we_o infer_v the_o quaker_n no_o christian_n be_v gather_v out_o some_o of_o their_o book_n write_v long_o ago_o now_o he_o argue_v thus_o if_o it_o be_v fair_a deal_n to_o infer_v from_o thence_o the_o whole_a body_n of_o quaker_n to_o be_v no_o christian_n then_o he_o may_v infer_v of_o the_o same_o account_n that_o the_o baptist_n be_v no_o christian_n to_o all_o this_o i_o say_v first_o this_o do_v suppose_v that_o there_o be_v some_o quaker_n that_o be_v no_o christian_n two_o that_o if_o this_o be_v true_a that_o some_o quaker_n have_v write_v what_o the_o whole_a body_n do_v not_o own_o that_o there_o be_v not_o that_o unity_n among_o they_o that_o they_o will_v make_v the_o world_n believe_v for_o if_o some_o man_n of_o the_o quaker_n judgement_n have_v put_v out_o those_o thing_n 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by_o i_o intend_v for_o it_o appear_v that_o i_o only_o mention_v those_o thing_n to_o this_o end_n to_o show_v that_o the_o baptist_n will_v not_o be_v so_o deal_v by_o as_o they_o have_v deal_v with_o we_o i_o do_v only_o suppose_v it_o for_o i_o do_v say_v i_o know_v not_o of_o any_o know_a quaker_n that_o be_v own_a as_o a_o public_a person_n among_o we_o that_o have_v lay_v down_o what_o we_o can_v stand_v by_o therefore_o i_o be_v far_o from_o that_o conclusion_n which_o he_o make_v but_o say_v he_o the_o baptist_n have_v protest_v against_o any_o such_o thing_n among_o they_o i_o ask_v have_v the_o baptist_n in_o general_a protest_v against_o they_o that_o deny_v universal_a grace_n the_o immortality_n of_o the_o soul_n the_o divinity_n of_o christ_n now_o if_o i_o find_v that_o there_o be_v some_o of_o the_o book_n that_o we_o never_o know_v any_o general_a protest_v against_o the_o parallel_n hold_v equal_a if_o they_o say_v there_o may_v be_v book_n that_o they_o have_v not_o well_o peruse_v they_o shall_v have_v allow_v the_o same_o charity_n w._n penn_n let_v we_o come_v to_o the_o matter_n i_o offer_v this_o to_o jeremiah_n ives_n that_o i_o will_v stand_v to_o all_o that_o t._n h._n have_v instance_a out_o of_o our_o book_n and_o prove_v he_o a_o forger_n concern_v they_o here_o have_v be_v much_o discourse_n beside_o the_o end_n of_o our_o meeting_n and_o this_o i_o say_v be_v the_o matter_n of_o our_o meeting_n to_o prove_v t._n h._n guilty_a of_o forgery_n and_o if_o thou_o i._o i._n do_v personate_v t._n h._n let_v i_o go_v on_o and_o i_o will_v prove_v thou_o a_o forger_n read_v the_o charge_n the_o people_n with_o one_o voice_n cry_v read_v the_o charge_n t._n p._n r._n t._n we_o will_v have_v no_o charge_n read_v w._n penn_n let_v t._n plant_v himself_o read_v the_o charge_n the_n baptist_n renew_v their_o noise_n w._n penn_n my_o friendly_a auditor_n the_o matter_n be_v whether_o we_o be_v christian_n or_o not_o t._n h._n say_v not_o we_o be_v not_o and_o he_o will_v prove_v it_o out_o of_o our_o book_n i_o charge_v he_o with_o forgery_n therein_o and_o be_o ready_a to_o prove_v it_o ere_o i_o go_v out_o of_o this_o place_n be_v not_o this_o fair_a the_o people_n general_o cry_v out_o this_o be_v fair_a this_o be_v fair_a w._n penn_n if_o you_o do_v not_o intend_v to_o proceed_v upon_o the_o charge_n as_o it_o be_v here_o but_o t._n h._n must_v do_v it_o let_v he_o come_v where_o we_o shall_v agree_v to_o meet_v and_o let_v our_o charge_n be_v read_v and_o indifferent_a person_n hear_v what_o we_o have_v to_o say_v and_o so_o let_v it_o be_v publish_v to_o the_o world_n t._n plant_v the_o quaker_n be_v offend_v that_o t._n h._n have_v so_o write_v we_o begin_v upon_o the_o first_o article_n of_o the_o charge_n at_o barbican_n we_o come_v hither_o this_o day_n upon_o the_o defence_n of_o that_o article_n hicks_n oppose_v the_o christian_a to_o the_o quaker_n and_o therefore_o because_o the_o doctrine_n you_o hold_v be_v 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thou_o speak_v both_o of_o person_n &_o thing_n be_v not_o w._n p._n and_o g._n k._n person_n now_o thou_o require_v we_o to_o wit_n w.p._n and_o g.k._n to_o give_v a_o evidence_n of_o our_o faith_n and_o practice_n to_o prove_v ourselves_o to_o be_v christian_n which_o be_v not_o our_o present_a work_n to_o do_v as_o be_v already_o show_v and_o it_o be_v sufficient_a that_o we_o have_v the_o witness_v in_o ourselves_o as_o the_o scripture_n say_v he_o that_o believe_v have_v the_o witness_n in_o himself_o and_o friend_n and_o all_o people_n here_o present_a i_o have_v one_o thing_n more_o of_o great_a weight_n to_o signify_v unto_o you_o and_o that_o be_v to_o tell_v you_o that_o although_o the_o baptist_n do_v false_o accuse_v we_o as_o derive_v our_o pedigree_n from_o the_o jesuit_n yet_o it_o may_v appear_v how_o near_o a_o kin_n they_o be_v to_o the_o jesuit_n see_v i_o can_v produce_v a_o jesuit_n who_o have_v use_v the_o very_a same_o argument_n upon_o the_o matter_n against_o 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ives_n then_o we_o have_v do_v not_o a_o word_n more_o g._n keith_n offer_v far_o to_o proceed_v j._n ives_n refuse_v w._n penn_n then_o let_v i_o take_v up_o the_o argument_n with_o t._n plant_n or_o rob._n taylor_n they_o refuse_v g._n keith_n offer_v to_o proceed_v with_o j._n ives_n thus_o g._n keith_n he_o be_v not_o a_o jew_n that_o be_v one_o outward_o but_o he_o be_v a_o jew_n that_o be_v one_o inward_o i_o offer_v to_o prove_v myself_o by_o as_o good_a argument_n that_o i_o be_o a_o christian_n as_o the_o best_a battist_n in_o the_o world_n can_v produce_v j._n i._n will_v not_o hear_v but_o refuse_v to_o reassume_v the_o argument_n w._n penn_n j._n ives_n t._n plant_v r._n taylor_n what_o mean_v you_o by_o this_o evasive_a carriage_n be_v this_o the_o entertainment_n we_o receive_v from_o you_o after_o our_o condescension_n to_o your_o importunity_n first_o you_o decline_v our_o charge_n next_o though_o you_o pretend_v to_o prove_v we_o no_o christian_n you_o now_o clamour_n 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penn_n a_o minister_n which_o be_v not_o the_o question_n 2._o that_o we_o must_v evidence_n that_o immediate_a revelation_n be_v our_o rule_n or_o else_o we_o be_v no_o christian_n but_o impostor_n but_o what_o evidence_n that_o must_v be_v whereby_o we_o may_v convince_v these_o prejudice_v opposer_n he_o have_v not_o tell_v we_o however_o be_v it_o observe_v that_o if_o true_a christian_n must_v show_v some_o outward_a evidence_n of_o their_o have_v immediate_a revelation_n or_o inspiration_n it_o follow_v that_o all_o even_o baptist_n and_o other_o who_o now_o deny_v both_o or_o say_v they_o be_v cease_v be_v no_o christian_n 3._o suppose_v we_o do_v not_o or_o be_v not_o call_v to_o give_v a_o outward_a evidence_n or_o demonstration_n of_o our_o christianity_n to_o the_o conviction_n of_o all_o who_o require_v it_o or_o impose_v upon_o we_o therein_o it_o follow_v not_o that_o we_o be_v no_o christian_n much_o less_o impostor_n for_o there_o be_v some_o among_o who_o christ_n 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that_o a_o man_n may_v be_v a_o true_a jew_n that_o be_v a_o true_a christian_n who_o may_v not_o exeede_v a_o impostor_n as_o to_o external_n evidence_n word_n or_o form_n if_o the_o spirit_n be_v of_o god_n witness_v with_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o ancient_a christian_n that_o they_o be_v child_n of_o god_n be_v a_o sufficient_a evidence_n thereof_o then_o since_o no_o impostor_n have_v that_o evidence_n and_o that_o evidence_n be_v not_o visible_a it_o follow_v that_o a_o man_n may_v be_v a_o christian_n by_o such_o a_o testimony_n that_o do_v not_o always_o distinguish_v he_o by_o outward_a observation_n to_o the_o eye_n of_o the_o world_n from_o a_o impostor_n if_o flesh_n and_o blood_n can_v not_o reveal_v christ_n neither_o can_v flesh_n and_o blood_n see_v or_o reveal_v that_o revelation_n but_o will_v it_o therefore_o follow_v that_o revelation_n be_v no_o evidence_n in_o itself_o and_o that_o peter_n be_v no_o christian_a note_v reader_n whilst_o w._n penn_n be_v speaking_z j._n ives_n t._n plant_v r._n taylor_n etc._n etc._n go_v their_o way_n but_o the_o auditory_a remain_v bate_v it_o may_v be_v of_o two_o thousand_o people_n not_o one_o hundred_o that_o go_v away_o with_o they_o in_o short_a if_o jer._n ives_n intend_v a_o evidence_n that_o be_v such_o as_o shall_v be_v convince_a to_o somebody_o though_o this_o be_v not_o absolute_o necessary_a in_o itself_o as_o in_o the_o case_n of_o a_o man_n that_o be_v bear_v dumb_a or_o one_o strike_v speechless_a upon_o a_o sick_a bed_n etc._n etc._n yet_o will_v it_o not_o reach_v the_o term_n of_o j._n ives_n his_o question_n and_o if_o he_o intend_v by_o a_o evidence_n such_o as_o shall_v be_v convince_a to_o every_o body_n than_o i_o utter_o deny_v it_o for_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n the_o
at_o our_o door_n and_o tho._n plant_n know_v how_o uncivil_o we_o be_v treat_v and_o use_v at_o our_o come_v in_o contrary_a to_o what_o be_v promise_v we_o the_o cause_n of_o our_o require_v a_o public_a meeting_n when_o tho._n plant_v mention_v meet_v be_v we_o ought_v to_o be_v as_o public_o right_v as_o we_o have_v be_v public_o wrong_v to_o which_o he_o answer_v and_o t._n h._n with_o he_o that_o it_o be_v very_o reasonable_a now_o for_o they_o to_o give_v we_o hope_n of_o be_v as_o public_o right_v as_o wrong_v especial_o in_o matter_n wherein_o the_o reputation_n of_o our_o profession_n and_o religion_n as_o well_o as_o our_o concernment_n as_o man_n in_o the_o creation_n be_v so_o high_o engage_v and_o then_o so_o unfair_a by_o a_o letter_n to_o oppose_v themselves_o to_o a_o public_a meeting_n be_v not_o worthy_o do_v but_o if_o tho._n hicks_n will_v not_o meet_v we_o in_o public_a we_o will_v follow_v he_o into_o any_o private_a meeting_n that_o shall_v be_v equal_o 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forger_n perverter_n liar_n slanderer_n of_o and_o against_o our_o faith_n write_n and_o person_n this_o be_v employ_v in_o that_o first_o article_n and_o upon_o which_o we_o call_v to_o the_o baptist_n for_o justice_n the_o business_n of_o this_o meeting_n be_v to_o take_v cognizance_n of_o that_o matter_n and_o for_o you_o to_o endeavour_v to_o give_v we_o the_o go_v by_o as_o to_o that_o black_a charge_n against_o t.h._n and_o to_o fall_v to_o other_o matter_n of_o controversy_n be_v not_o only_o a_o deviation_n but_o to_o offer_v violence_n to_o t.h._n be_v own_o method_n of_o procee_v and_o if_o t._n hicks_n will_v not_o appear_v public_o yet_o if_o j._n i._n or_o any_o of_o you_o will_v undertake_v to_o personate_v he_o we_o will_v first_o read_v the_o charge_n and_o then_o go_v on_o to_o make_v it_o good_a for_o that_o be_v the_o work_n of_o this_o meeting_n and_o for_o man_n to_o say_v they_o will_v do_v this_o and_o that_o but_o when_o they_o come_v to_o the_o pinch_v pick_v here_o and_o there_o what_o chey_n please_v to_o insist_v upon_o this_o be_v not_o i_o must_v tell_v you_o for_o the_o accuse_v to_o do_v it_o be_v my_o '_o tpart_o to_o make_v good_a my_o charge_n viz._n that_o t._n h._n be_v a_o forger_n etc._n etc._n let_v the_o charge_n be_v read_v hear_v w._n p._n and_o other_o press_v hard_o to_o have_v the_o charge_v read_v in_o the_o hear_n of_o the_o auditory_a the_o people_n signify_v a_o great_a desire_n thereof_o but_o j._n i._n and_o his_o brethren_n cry_v out_o read_v no_o charge_n to_o which_o be_v join_v a_o loud_a noise_n and_o clamour_n from_o the_o baptist_n that_o it_o can_v not_o be_v hear_v j._n ives_n whereas_o w._n p._n say_v that_o if_o we_o will_v go_v on_o they_o will_v join_v issue_n with_o we_o but_o consider_v what_o they_o lie_v to_o t.h._n be_v charge_n in_o the_o write_n of_o w._n p._n and_o g._n w._n if_o it_o can_v be_v prove_v the_o truth_n of_o it_o be_v that_o t._n h._n be_v the_o prodigy_n of_o the_o age_n for_o slander_n and_o unworthy_a deal_n but_o let_v we_o make_v a_o little_a trial_n w._n p._n charge_v t._n h._n with_o forgery_n and_o one_o instance_n to_o prove_v it_o be_v take_v out_o of_o w._n p._n be_v book_n call_v the_o sandy_a foundation_n shake_v concern_v the_o word_n only_o which_o word_n be_v certain_o there_o and_o at_o this_o rate_n i_o will_v make_v all_o the_o world_n forger_n if_o they_o shall_v be_v so_o because_o i_o say_v so_o w._n penn_n if_o i._o ives_n will_v begin_v here_o with_o our_o charge_n i_o will_v abide_v by_o it_o provide_v we_o may_v go_v through_o the_o whole_a charge_n as_o public_o but_o if_o j._n i._n will_v assume_v a_o privilege_n to_o choose_v as_o he_o please_v how_o do_v this_o answer_n the_o method_n of_o the_o charge_n or_o his_o own_o promise_n to_o begin_v you_o may_v observe_v how_o they_o twist_v to_o avoid_v our_o prove_a t._n h._n a_o forger_n etc._n etc._n i_o say_v again_o the_o matter_n of_o fact_n be_v charge_v by_o we_o if_o j.i._n will_v personate_v t.h._n i_o be_o ready_a for_o he_o and_o here_o offer_v to_o prove_v he_o as_o such_o guilty_a of_o forgery_n and_o the_o dialogus_fw-la to_o be_v a_o fiction_n j._n ives_n i_o be_o depute_v and_o as_o far_o as_o we_o two_o shall_v proceed_v he_o shall_v be_v conclude_v as_o if_o t._n h._n be_v here_o w.p._n do_v ask_v if_o we_o will_v go_v on_o with_o the_o article_n as_o lay_v down_o we_o have_v they_o and_o will_v go_v on_o in_o the_o name_n of_o t.h._n and_o those_o friend_n relate_v to_o he_o and_o as_o far_o as_o we_o go_v on_o he_o and_o they_o shall_v be_v conclude_v by_o it_o but_o as_o to_o many_o other_o article_n that_o require_v witness_n they_o must_v be_v leave_v to_o a_o other_o meet_v for_o he_o to_o bring_v forth_o his_o own_o witness_n whereas_o he_o say_v that_o our_o letter_n only_o mention_n matter_n of_o fact_n not_o controversy_n i_o say_v matter_n of_o fact_n may_v be_v matter_n of_o controversy_n if_o i_o charge_v a_o man_n to_o be_v a_o atheist_n or_o a_o papist_n he_o say_v it_o be_v a_o scandal_n we_o come_v to_o prove_v now_o the_o matter_n of_o fact_n be_v matter_n of_o opinion_n and_o so_o become_v matter_n of_o controversy_n now_o if_o t._n h._n say_v the_o quaker_n be_v no_o christian_n he_o do_v own_o it_o to_o be_v so_o not_o only_o he_o but_o i_o do_v here_o say_v as_o much_o which_o be_v the_o first_o article_n in_o the_o dialogue_n here_o j.i._n with_o great_a levity_n in_o his_o countenance_n thus_o say_v j._n ives_n i_o be_o come_v here_o this_o day_n to_o prove_v the_o quaker_n to_o be_v no_o christian_n which_o i_o hope_v to_o do_v by_o the_o strength_n of_o god_n g._n w._n that_o be_v not_o the_o first_o article_n in_o the_o charge_n we_o charge_v he_o with_o forgery_n we_o say_v it_o be_v no_o real_a dialogue_n it_o be_v frame_v by_o t._n h._n that_o be_v the_o charge_n and_o this_o relate_v to_o matter_n of_o fact_n he_o say_v it_o be_v a_o dialogue_n we_o say_v it_o be_v make_v by_o t._n h._n wherein_o say_v he_o be_v faithful_o represent_v and_o pulish_v the_o most_o considerable_a opinion_n and_o principle_n of_o the_o people_n call_v quaker_n collect_v out_o of_o their_o own_o write_n make_v extant_a for_o common_a benefit_n do_v not_o this_o imply_v that_o this_o man_n be_v concern_v to_o make_v it_o appear_v that_o his_o dialogue_n be_v a_o real_a discourse_n between_o one_o or_o more_o that_o be_v call_v quaker_n and_o his_o so_o call_v christian_n we_o say_v it_o be_v not_o real_a but_o a_o false_a representation_n of_o our_o principle_n and_o practice_n and_o that_o they_o be_v word_n we_o never_o speak_v nor_o write_v but_o be_v a_o mere_a fiction_n this_o be_v the_o matter_n of_o fact_n and_o here_o lie_v the_o stress_n he_o say_v it_o be_v a_o dialogue_n between_o a_o christian_a and_o a_o quaker_n we_o be_v here_o to_o prove_v it_o a_o forgery_n w._n p._n when_o a_o charge_n be_v exibit_v it_o ought_v to_o be_v confess_v or_o deny_v if_o t._n hicks_n confess_v himself_o a_o forger_n etc._n etc._n then_o let_v we_o proceed_v to_o matter_n of_o doctrine_n if_o he_o deny_v it_o i_o be_o here_o to_o prove_v he_o one_o hear_v the_o people_n cry_v that_o be_v fair_a and_o urge_v to_o have_v the_o charge_v read_v j._n ives_n the_o substance_n of_o what_o they_o have_v say_v be_v this_o that_o the_o first_o accusation_n be_v for_o write_a dialogue_n wise_a w._n p._n no_o such_o matter_n we_o do_v not_o accuse_v he_o for_o write_v dialogue-wise_a but_o for_o write_v fiction_n call_v they_o a_o dialogue_n make_v person_n