REMARKS UPON A LETTER FROM A Gentleman in the Country TO HIS Friend in LONDON AND UPON A Relation of some Norfolk Clergy of a Conference between them and some Quakers at West-Dereham Church in Norfolk December the 8th 1698. And a Certificate relating to the Challenge With 〈◊〉 farther Account of the said Conference By an Eye and Ear Witness of the whole J. A LONDON Printed and Sold by the Booksellers of London and Westminster 1699. REMARKS upon a Letter c. HAving seen A Letter from a Gentleman in the Country to his Friend at London concerning a Conference between some Clergy-Men at West-Dereham in Norfolk and some Quakers Subscribed W. D. And since another Relation of the same Conference together with those Letters which passed between the Quakers and Clergy in order thereunto to which is added a Certificate concerning the Challenge On which I being an Eye and Ear Witness all the time am willing to make some Remarks Although I am not a Person that delights in Controversie or takes Pleasure in such Debates yet was willing at this time to be present and to observe how and in what temper this Conference would be managed which was Commendable on both sides at first in making their Supplications unto God but it continued not long in so Edifying a Method for when the Clergy had read some Letters that had passed between them and the Quakers the Quakers desired and had it granted that their Answers might be read in Course but the Clergy would have proceeded to read their Proofs which the Quakers objected against because they had not Copies of their Charge according to their Request neither were the Preliminaries agreed upon And I am persuaded had the Clergy granted that and behaved themselves Grave and Solid and proceeded in a Christian Spirit of Meekness and Love they would have been more acceptable to the People and satisfactory to the Auditory But on the contrary the Quakers very Soberly Appealed to the People both against their Proceedings Levity and Noise And by that and making Confession of their Faith in good Language and Scripture Terms I must say were most taking with the sober People present And now I shall proceed to my Remarks and first on the Letter I must acknowledge it 's a fair Account and Impartially done in what it toucheth of and the Advice taken out of J. Fox I must needs say is well Adapted and I could be heartily glad it were well Practised And the only way thereto is for all to dwell in that Love that Envieth not which is the Badge by which all Men may know whose Disciples they are And not to hold or contend for any Doctrine that is contrary to the Word of God but rather close with the Philosophers viz. Amicus Socrates Amicus Plato Sed Magis Amica Veritas and again Non est Jurandum in verba Magistri that is to say Truth is to be our Bosom Friend and we are to flee all others to follow that which will teach us not to be Angry without a Cause And as to the Relation given by the Clergy I must confess it 's neither Candid nor Consistant in several things viz. p. 6. One of us got to a Corner of the Seat from whence he might be heard by some of the People and laid open some of the Blasphemies we had to Charge them with out of their own Books to the great Satisfaction of the Auditory which cried out Blasphemy Blasphemy on which one of the Quakers very Pertly asked us That if they looked upon us to be such Blasphemers what is 〈◊〉 reason we have let them alone so long that they had never heard of such a Char◠from us before even thro' the space of Forty Years and how comes it to pass 〈◊〉 have been so Careless of our Flocks We ingeniously told them We never had 〈◊〉 right an Understanding of their Principles as of late Rem Here 's no Quotation no Reference to any Book or Books out of which the things were proved it was but to some and at a Corner yet to the great Satisfaction 〈◊〉 the Audition who cried out Blasphemy Blasphemy I doubt the Quakers will Ridicule th◠Corner-Story that was so little heard and gave such great Satisfaction and cause◠a Cry of Blasphemy Blasphemy Which few heard but those in the Corner for I am sure that all the time I was not far from the Scaffold and I heard no such repeate◠Exclamations These things are more like to be to the Disadvantage of the Clergy than their Reputation and those People that are apt to improve every Advantage against them and are ready by the Fruits and Practice of some Clergy-Men to compare them to those false Prophets which preached for Hire and divined for Money and that sought their Gain from their Quarter who by their Lies and Lightness caused the People to Err◠Besides these People from the Clergy's not quoting their Books nor Reciting the words which they say are Blasphemy in this Printed Account will be ready to suggest That the Clergy were Conscious to themselves that the Words would not amount to Blasphemy because they only Impose them upon their own Authority as if Ipse dixit as one there told them were sufficient And it 's much but they 'll suggest that these Learned Rectors that confess there are several Thousands of the Quakers in Norfolk and Suffolk have been very Careless and Negligent in the discharge of their Office who alledge they have the Care and Cure of Souls and are well paid for it and account the Quakers Blasphemers and their Principles Dangerous and yet have not all this while proved the first as publickly in Print as they are exposed in their Books and understood so little of the latter till of late as they ingenuosly Confess Is here not room to say Nec mirum ejusdem fere sunt farinae Irrisor Ignarus And for old Parson Meriton to be included amongst these is more strange for the Quakers will be ready to conclude what he did in Appearing against and Opposing the Quakers some Years since and their Principles was before he had so right an Understanding of their Principles Besides there was one thing I took particular notice of which was this When the Quakers complained of the Severeness of their Charge and the Universality of it being against the whole Body of the People called Quakers Parson Archer of Millner told them openly they did not Charge the Quakers of this Generation for they were Orthodox and would have them only deny their Ancient Friends Books And indeed as he appeared most Charitable so he behaved himself more Grave than the others But the Quakers returned upon that as in the Letter to know whether they would deny their Ancient Friends Writings as William Thorpe c. And again I observe in the Clergy's Account p. 2 they have Recited a passage out of one or the 〈◊〉 Celebrated Authors which seems to be a
very bold Proposal and shews they are strong in their Perswasion although they have been exposed to great Sufferings the words cited are Let any Wise Men Propound for full Satisfaction of all sorts of People that We with the Consent of the Chief in Authority that have Power in this Nation note This shews they had some respect for Magistracy who may preserve Peace and Safety among People may freely give as many of the Wiseâ—â— and Ablest of the Priests c. a Meeting for Dispute at any place in England at what Place and Time and for what Continuance they shall Ascribe and Consent unto Now I Remark from this it 's to my Admiration that ever the Clergy should urge this as they did at West-Dereham and have now again to Settle the Preliminaries of that Conference and now to say the Quakers would not stand to Edw. Burroughs's Terms which were never urged as Terms as I heard till then Besides the Quakers did then and there urge it was morally Impossible that the Proposal of Edward Burroughs made above Twenty Five Years past should settle the Preliminaries of a Conference that was begun to be treated on but a few Months since and now they have printed it it 's much if those People which I perceive are pretty apt with their Repartees do not tell them that those Terms of Edward Burroughs were not answered for by that Wise Men were to propound and to them in Authority but they neither look upon those Rectors or Lawrence Park either Wise Men or in Authority There is another passage which was I perceive omitted in the Letter which the principal Managers as they stile themselves viz. Edward Beckenham D. D. Rector of Gayton Thorpe Henry Meriton Rector of Oxborough Lancaster Topcliff Rector of Hockwold have hinted in that Remarkable and most Notable Relation of the Conference wherein they boldly declare they would not leave the matter thus but seek some more seasonable opportunity to make good their Charge not Challenge for they 'll not allow that they had that Courage against the Quakers but intend when Weather is good and that the Quakers will Answer fairly to permit oh what power they assume any of all the Quakers to appear but if they shall fall a Clamouring they will civily lead them out of Door Is it not strange that such a material passage should be omitted Which shews the Resolution of the Clergy and their Care to seek a more favourable opportunity to make good their Charge which causes me to Remember what some at the Conference called them For by this they grant their Work 's to do their Proofs are to make and the Quakers are only called not proved Blasphemers in any of the Points brought against them what Reason then I pray had the People to cry out Blasphemy Blasphemy unless it was to fulfill this Proverb Qualis sit Caulae Rex talis est Vulgi Grex But let me be Charitable to the Auditory quoted for their Enuntiation of Blasphemy Blasphemy for surely either they were Ignorant if they so did or those learned Clergy misrepresent them for it is granted by them that the Charges are yet to prove So that for any thing they did that Six Hours they were at the Conference the Quakers remain what they were however these Rectors if they did little are now resolved to speak big and that is sooner said than prov'd for now they declare under their Hands which is witnessed unto by many others or the Substance of it and that by one Presbyterian John Williamson Minister of the Gospel as these Clergy-men print him however the Clergy will permit the Quakers upon terms viz. if the Quakers answer fairly We will permit any of them all to appear what wonderful favour is this from those that spake so big Yet now I think of it how would they hinder their appearance Unless they were resolved to meet privately And now they Charge Sentence and Condemn them unsummon'd and unheard and will not this be as well as to Summon them as when they come to put them out but let 's not forget the civility they promise which is if they fall a Clamouring they will very civily lead them out of Doors And no doubt they 'll undertake to be Judges of that considering there 's one D. D. besides two other Rectors who possibly in the Quakers absence may be able to do what they could not when present But consider further that this grant of Civility is promised the Quakers by the Clergy notwithstanding they have done so much to hinder their Good design of proving their Charge of Blasphemy to the People so they grant again the Charge is not yet proved yet say those Reverend Rectors the People were generally satisfied if so surely these People or the Clergy or both were very weak to conclude Men Guilty before Tryal or Proof but peradventure these Masters of Words and Men of Learning may mean by their couching the Matter thus that the People were satisfied they neither did nor could prove what they charged the Quakers with For if it was as they suggest that the Quakers would not let them proceed to Try Sentence and Condemn before they were in a Capacity to make their Defence by perusing the Quotations designed or urged for Proofs with other places in the same Books and that every Author may have that common Justice due to all Men to explain or have his meaning explained by other Sentences in the same Book Now I say if these Divines and Men of Learning were then prevented from proving the Charge out of the Quakers own Writings why did they not now Print and Publish them to the World and make them so publick as the Quakers Books are for General Information and Good of their Flocks For I observe in p. 8. they say viz. But notwithstanding they i. e. the Quakers have done so much to hinder our good Design of Proving our Charge to the People we hope we have stopp'd the Gangreen that it spreads no farther in our Corner the People were generally satisfied and do believe them now to be Blasphemers but why I pray do they so Believe And from whence comes this General Satisfaction Was it because no proof was made As these Rectors grant and is this all they have to ground their hope upon that the Gangreen is stopp'd No sure there 's something further what 's that It s this because they refuse to come to Tryal nor would suffer their Books to be read And this is the Reason the Principal Managers of the Clergy have given under their Hands this is the Ground of their hope and of the Peoples General Satisfaction and their belief if these Men may be believed But this is certain the Quakers never refused to come to Tryal Hundreds are Witnesses they often proffered it and in order to it desired a List or Account of the Titles of the Books the Pages and Authors Names out of which the Clergy
pretended they would bring their proofs and proffer rather than go without it to pay for the transcribing it and once had directions to send to Oxborough for it and expectation given by Doctor Beckenham that they should have it but the Rector Meriton denied it and the Quakers also proffer'd over and over that if they might have such a Copy or Account they would willingly proceed to settle the Preliminaries and â—â—at in order to agree upon time and place and if there were any thing they could not stand by or make â—ood by Scripture Proof they 'd disown it and urged to the Clergy that if they were sure their Proofs â—â—ould hold they need not fear giving a Copy of their Charge nor decline another Meeting but one of the Clergy said Let it End here And is it not reasonable therefore to conclude that these Clergy-men are Conscious to themselves of the Invalidity of their pretended Proofs or shortness of making good that Charge which they would neither then or now produce them that the World might see what the Quakers were and what Sharp and industrious Men these Clergy had been to make such a discovery of them And if they now in Print had done what they could not do at West-Dereham they might not only have stop'd the Gangreen but compleated the Cure and shew'd themselves Physicians of some Value But says the Clergy p. 3. should we tell them the Names of the Books Page and Line before-hand we had deserved rather to be laugh'd at as Fools than be look'd on as Disputants I perceive they had more mind to be look'd upon as Disputants than laugh'd at as Fools and yet by the Judgment of many approved themselves more like the First than the Latter and shewed more Lightness and Prophaneness considering their Pretentions and the Place they were in by Hollowing and calling to the People to Hiss at the Quakers than their Skill in Disputing or Wisdom in Management However the Clergy seem to be Generous in that they allow the same liberty for the Quakers viz. to Charge any of the Church of England Writers with Blasphemy as they had taken against the Quakers but is it not greatly to be feared considering the difference and contentions that have been and are amongst them upon several Points as the Trinity c. that it would be very hard for Dr. Beckenham and the two other Rectors Meriton and Topcliff without the Authority of the Church or Power Ecclesiastical to disown either Dr. Sherlock or Dr. South However what the Quakers insisted upon considering their Generous offer to meet when they had an account of the Authors Books and Pages as aforesaid and had agreed upon time and place must by fair and reasonable Men be accounted both reasonable and fair and the contrary in the Clergy in denying it I also observe in page 5. They say they i. e. the Quakers told us Blasphemy against God was the Sin against the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost was God Rem And I pray do not these learned Rectors say the same If not may not the Quakers Charge them with Blasphemy as one of the Quakers did at West-Dereham And may they not justly be charged with Blasphemy against God and Jesus Christ c. in that they Charge the Quakers and positively assert that the Light within as taught by them exposes them to Blasphemy against God and Blasphemy against Jesus Christ If that Light be God and Jesus Christ For a Quaker there strenuously urged that they taught believed in or expected Salvation by no other than by Him that Word that was in the beginning with God and was God in whom was Life and the Life was the Light of Men c. And if so that any say they that assert this Light which is the Life of that Word that was God and so taught exposes them that so teach and believe to Blasphemy against God and Christ and many other Blasphemies surely they which so assert as these Clergy have must be Blasphemers against God c. who is this Word Light and Life And the Quakers did not only assert this but did positively deny all the Charges which was brought and exhibited against them by the Clergy which Charges the Clergy acknowledge was not prov'd against them as before observed and I heard a Quaker then and there make Confession that they believed in God Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ his Son born of the Virgin Mary that appeared in the World in the Body prepared for him wrought Miracles Suffered and Dyed for our Sins and Rose again for our Justification and believed that Remission of Sins was through Faith in his Blood and declared they believed in the Holy Spirit and owned the Three that bear Record in Heaven the Father the Word and the Spirit and that these Three are One and that they owned the holy Scriptures of Truth and believed they were given forth by Divine Inspiration and were profitable for Doctrine Reproof and Correction and were able to make the Man of God Wise to Salvation through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that they did esteem the Bible above all other Books and accounted it the most Excellent in all the World and could be glad People did spend more of their time in Reading of it And that they owned Magistracy according to Scripture and accounted it an Ordinance of God for the Punishing them that do Evil and Praise of them that do Well And that they owned the Ordinances of Jesus Christ and his Baptism which is truly Essential unto Salvation and the Supper of the Lord. And in the 1st Paper of the Quakers unto the Clergy which they call a Copy of the Quaker's Challenge sent unto Henry Meriton John Meriton Lawrence Parke they write to them thus If you think you have Matter to Charge us withal let us have your Charge under your own Hands c. ' This say they is not from any Consciousness to our selves of holding any Errors but if you think it is you may if you please i. e. Charge them Rem Now one of the Quakers from hence urged it could be no Challenge but a Proposal left to them if they thought they had Matter to Charge them they might and said the Quakers you have thought your have Matter and have charged us and said your Measures are fixt and we may chuse whether we will meet you upon the terms resolved on or no See your last Paper which is concluded thus from those that are resolved to continue your real Friends whether you will or not And notwithstanding their resolute friendship allowed not the Quakers that provision they reserved in the first Paper viz. the common Priviledges to such occasions belonging which is a Mutual agreement of time place and method and to have an account of the Books Authors and Pages when they agreed on that method of Charging I shall now make a few Remarks on the Certificate