was more talk about the visibility of the Church and D. T. said to this purpose The History of this matter is beyond both the Purse and the Capacity of the People A great many Pounds and Books are required A Priest or Candidate said 'T is in less room and was pulling out I think a little Book It sufficeth the People that they have heard Christ's Promise That there shall be a Society of men professing Christianity to the end of the World That they believe Christ will make good his word and that they find among us such Doctrine and Rules of Life as are in the Bible That the Greeks have always had Churches that among the Latins we have Catalogues of Witnesses against Romish Errors That a True Church may though not as such have many Corruptions And that the present Corruptions in the Roman Church were not formerly made Articles of Faith. That we had the True Faith before any Mission came from Rome That S. Gregories Faith was not that which Rome now teaches That here the Synods of the Second of Nice and Trent could not prevail That a Doctrine contrary to Transubstantiation had been taught in the Saxon Church and that he would prove such things as these out of their own Writers Mr. M. ask'd what Writers D. T. answer'd Beda and such Historians as Hoveden c. D. T. said moreover to Mr. P. asking after a distinct Church before Luther That he would shew him Christians in Bohemia making the Bible their Rule and protesting against the Errors of Rome And ask'd him If he should shew him out of Aeneas Sylvius Mr. P. did not desire it nor seem to know what Book that was Mr. M. had some while before ask'd D. T. who had said That we find the Bible which we now have quoted by the Ancient Fathers How he came to know they were Fathers To which Question he thought an Answer in that Place a condesension to an impertinence Hereabouts I think Mr. P. introduced a short Discourse about Transubstantiation and when D. T. had said as before that that manner of the Breads becoming Christ's Body was invented by Paschasius Radbertus M. P. in warm manner said What talk you of Paschasius Radbertus It was decreed in the Great General Council of Lateran where there were all the Patriarchs D. T. perceiving him to mistake so much in History and likewise err in time nigh Four hundred years for Paschasius flourished according to Bellarmin in the year 821. and that Lateran Council was held Ann. 1215. He turn'd to Mr. M. and said Why do you bring a man who has not common skill in History And then turning to Mr. P. he ask'd him Under what Pope that Council was held And his Memory did not serve him to tell Then Mr. D. A. C. addressing himself to him having a Breviary in his Hand in which the Trinity was pictur'd said Sir I can inform you under what Pope that Council was held 't was held under Innocent the Third Mr. P. being moved either by his Answer or his Book or Picture or all called him Buffoon D. T. then told Mr. P. he had transgressed against part of the Office of that day of St. Michael in which these words of St. Jude were read Michael the Arch-angel disputing with the Devil about the Body of Moses would not bring against him a railing Accusation but said The Lord rebuke thee And further D. T. ask'd him If all the Patriarchs were there in person or not Mr. P. replied By their Legats D. T. ask'd him Whether he had seen Father Walsh's late Book which contradicted what he said Mr. P. answered that Father Walsh was not his Pope Some of the words of Father Walsh the Franciscan are these There were not above 414 Bishops in the whole and none of all other than a Member of the Latin Church those very Two Patriarchs he means those of Hierusalem and Constantinople being themselves Latins and consequently not one of the Greek Church or of any other part or Church of the World among them By this time Mr. P. had produced a Breviary a written Collection of Quotations and Two large sheets of Quotations printed and would go to the Fathers D. T. desired first to speak to his Citation Hear the Church but still being denied he was contented to hear what he would alledge out of the Fathers with this Caution That he would not take them either for his infallible Judges or Rule but that seeing he had them on the side of his Church he would not part with them He began with his Breviary and read out of it part of that which is in the Margent construing it into English And the Sum of it was That before Consecration it was Bread but after it the Flesh of Christ And that Christ whose Word made things begin to be which were not before could much more bring it to pass that they should be what they were and yet changed into another thing which shews the opinion of the Author to have been that it was Bread and Christ's Body too if from this place we may find out his mind And then he nam'd S. Cyril's Catechism and then Justin Martyr and was going on to read many more Citations out of the printed Sheets entituled Speculum Ecclesiasticum but call'd it seems by their Hawkers The Soldiers Paper of which Title D. T. being ignorant his Man could not till Wednesday procure him a Copy of them D. T. Propos'd the fixing upon something after so long and noisie a rambling and call'd for Pen Ink and Paper and said he would begin with S. Ambrose and then go on to S. Cyril and J. Martyr in the order of Mr. P. and answering those Quotations there at that time he would afterwards as they agreed go on to the rest Mr. P. would go on and read further and did it so often out of those two Sheets repeating the names Justin Martyr Irenaeus c. that D. T. provoked with what he thought an unreasonable digression call'd the Papers his Ballads and said he might give them for Kites to his Boys which words were too light and he repents him of using them At last D. T. took the Pen and wrote down an Assertion to this effect That that was a spurious and late Book and none of S. Ambrose 's and that he would show it to be such Then he desir'd Mr. P. to underwrite that D. T. could not do what he there undertook M. P. refus'd and taking a Pen began to write his name to his Quotations in the printed Sheets but did not write as I think all his name there After which Mr. M. took Pen and D. T. delivering him the Paper he had sign'd in order to a regular proceeding he began to write the first words of these Questions Whether God Almighty hath left us any Guide or Guides to direct us in the Interpretation of Scripture in things necessary to Salvation Whether he hath
first Christians received the Canon of the old Testament Mr. M. catch'd at the words and said D. T. builds his Faith on Jews D. T. answered That that was not fair and that he should take his words in their coherence and make the best of them He continued and said That by this way of Universal Consent we were by way of external inducement as sure of this Books being the Bible as of Cicero's Offices being his Book Mr. M. said we were not infallibly sure of that D. T. added That the Consent of the World removed all doubt and that for the Holy Bible when men came to consider the Prophesies and their Events the Characters of Christ the History of Christ and things in those Books most worthy of God and use of pious means in humility of Soul they had further assurance begotten in them Mr. M. asked D. T. how he proved that inward sense D. T. said it could satisfie the persons themselves Then Mr. P. began again to ask Questions about the Bible How from what Churches Copies c. we had received it It had been no difficult matter to have perplexed him by asking from what Copy of the O. T. St. Peter had what Copy of the New he gave to Linus and he to the rest and where and by whom Linus was ordained and in what form c. but he only ask'd him upon what motive he believed Infallibly that St. Peter was ever at Rome seeing the Scripture had not said it Mr. P. said all the world knew that D. T. ask'd him whether all the world were good witnesses for this and not for the Bible Then Mr. P. said something of Thou art Peter and upon Thee will I build my Church D. T. said that he made no distinction between the masculine and feminine Gender and that the Text ran not upon thee Peter or this Peter but upon this Rock 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Feminine tho admitting that our Saviour did build upon him for by him he opened the Kingdom of the Gospel to the Jews at Jerusalem and to the Gentiles at Cesarea yet seeing there were Twelve Foundations Christ promising that he should be one did not exclude the other Eleven Hereabouts upon Mr. P's citing this place and that other Hear the Church c. and D T. desiring to fix upon something and opening an English Bible and Mr P. denying it to be the Bible and D. T. desiring to send for a Greek Testament one was produced by the Company but not used Mr. P. saying he would allow the Translation of the places to be true Mrs. R. in this talk about St. Peter being nigh Mr. P. said softly 't was St. Peters Confession on which Christ built his Church Hereabouts also Mr. P. spake about a Church at Rome spoken of by St. Paul and D. T. taking up the Bible and desiring to show how that matter stood was not permitted after three or four offers For Mr. P. turned all off by general discourse about the Bible and Rule of Faith and began again to ask Questions and to say that the Greeks of whom D. T. spake were all Lyars being Hereticks and that the Catholicks meaning Romans were said by him to be a corrupt Church and that therefore the Protestants depended upon Lyars for their Bible Here first began a strife about the word Catholick and of the Popes being the Catholick Bishops and D. T. asking Mr. P. whether the Ancient Bishops of other Sees did not stile themselves the Catholick Bishops of this and the other place Mr. P. yielded it and this word-bate ended Then D. T. in Answer to his Argument said to this effect First That the Greeks were not all Lyars and Hereticks and that the Missionaries had Misrepresented them Secondly That when all the World of all Ages conspired in a testimony about a book or such a City as Rome or Jerusalem tho some might be ill men and in some particulars Lyars yet we could not believe them Lyars in their Universal Consent because they could never be in a Confederacy to vend such a Lye. Thirdly That tho we took in part the Testimony of the Roman Church yet from her Authority the S. S. could not be prov'd because she went about to prove her Being and Authority out of the Scriptures and therefore could not do it till it was first proved that the Scriptures were the Word of God and the places cited were infallibly proved to carry that sense which the Romanists put upon them D. T. remembers not that any thing was said to the two last but upon the first Mr. P. charged him with joining with the Greeks in the Herefie of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father by the Son Mr. D. A. C. not known before to D. T. interposed and said That that was a dispute about Phrases and that they were agreed in sense And when Mr. P. wondred at that saying and had said there would in a fortnights time come forth a Book which should sufficiently show what the Greek Church was D. T. referred him to Father Simons Book called Histoire Critique de la Creance c. des Nations du Levant published three years ago in which that Learned Romanist show'd how the Missionaries had slandered the Greek Church and made those Hereticks who were not so and raised a dust about words when they agreed in meaning Mr. P. did not own his knowledg of this Book Since the Conference D. T. hath seen a Second Book upon the like Argument lately published by the said Learned French man and he perceives by it that as times Change men can do so too Here abouts D. T. offer'd to fix upon something and to speak to the Text cited by M. P. viz. Hear the Church but Mr. P. did not suffer it for some time but said The Church was a City on a Hill and always visible and ask'd Where such a Church as ours was visible in all Ages And how and where c. And clap'd his Hand with great force upon the Table and a while after said If he could not shew the visibility of his Church and we could that of ours he would be hang'd D. T. when Mr. P. beat the Table said smiling Sir I would not by any means come under your Ferula Mr. P. replied very calmly I use none D. T. does think that he ought to have spared those words as seeming to reflect upon that Profession which he very much Honours as one of the most useful in the World As likewise those used by him upon Mr. P's talking of being hang'd it being somewhat severe But in heat of talk D. T. did say Mr. P. you use a very scurvy word and you put me in mind of a saying of the late Lord Faulkland You are apt to hang and to damn but if they whom you hang were no more hang'd than they who you damn were damn'd few men would fear either your hanging or your damning After this there
U. and Mrs. U. declared by themselves and the rather upon their taking notice of certain Arts of Lying not so much before observed by them she own'd that the aforesaid Stories were us'd by a Roman as Arguments to turn her I believe there might be false Stories to the prejudice of Mr. P. and his Friends but to the end that false Reports may not on either hand prevail this Account is written by D. T. which Mr. P. wheresoever he thinks it is faulty may please to correct Tho. Tenison A Pursuit of that which was said in the Conference about the three first Quotations viz. out of S. Ambrose de Sacramentis S. Cyril of Hierusalem in his Catechism and Justin Martyr in his Apology c. 1. FOR the Book de Sacramentis as not genuine it may suffice at present to say That though there was a Book written by S. Ambrose under that Title this is not it there not being found in this the Places which S. Austin cited out of that That the style is plainly more moderen and rude than that of S. Ambrose and his Age That the version of the places of Scripture mention'd in this Book is not the same with that which S. Ambrose uses in his genuine Works That this Book is taken notice of by the Writers of the 8th and 9th Age the time of the introducing of the Corporeal Presence The very eminent Cardinal Bona whose credit is greater than that of Alexander Natalis do's own all this the last words excepted Haec Ambrosius si tamen ipse horum librorum qui de Sacramentis inscribuntur Auctor est Testatur quidem Augustinus scripsisse Ambrosium libros de Sacramentis sive de Philosophia adverfus l'latonem quorum meminit lib. 2. Retract cap. 4. doctrina Christiana lib. 2. cap. 28. eosque peâ—iit sibi mitti à S. Paulino Ep. 34. sed illi vel perierunt vel alicubi latent longè diversi sunt ab his qui nunc extant ut patet ex sententiis quas ex illis citat idem August lib. 2. primi operis adversus Julianum cap. 5. tribus sequentibus De his verò quos hodiè habemus fecit primò ut dubitarem styli diversitas cùm enim opera Ambrosii ante aliquot annos haud perfunctoriè percurrerem 〈◊〉 ad hoc pervent visus sum mihi alterius lingue hominem ab Ambrosio prorsus diversum loquentem audire Tum animadverti loca scripturae in his citata non esse ejus versionis quâ in aliis libris Ambrosius uti consuevit Quaedam etiam in his reperi quae seculo Ambrosii minùs convenire visa sunt Nihilominùs à Scriptoribus octavi nani seculi laudantur saepiùs tanquam Ambrosii legitimus foetus quorum auctoritati cedens eos deinceps sub ejus nomine cujus est possessio semper cit abo It is true he says at the end of his Discourse that notwithstanding his Reasons before alledged he yields to the Authority of the Writers of the 8th and 9th Age and that seeing they are in possession he will henceforth cite this Book under the name of S. Ambrose But considering the Time and the Doctrine then preparing for the papal stamp who wants the fagacity of understanding to what purpose this Book was forg'd and then brought forth as out of its antient mouldiness And for the humility of the Cardinal's deference to such late Authority against his solid reasons and judgment all know what that means in the Roman Communion where Writers after knowing that they have said things against the genius of that Church do in the end submit all at her feet So did Des-Cartes whose principles are utterly inconsistent with Transubstantiation So did Molinos the Father of the numberless off-spring of the present Quietists For this is the Conclusion of his first amply licensed and then rigidly condemned Guida spirituale Il tutto sottoponga humilimente prostrato alla Correttione della Santa Chiesa Catolica Romana After all this I do allow that Mr. P. was the less to be blamed in this Quotation considered as a Romanist because he cited it out of his Breviary and believ'd as his Church believed Of this spurious S. Ambrose and of the doctrine of the Eucharist in the true S. Ambrose I will say more when more is required I will add only at this time these two things First The Author cited out of the Breviary suppose him S. Ambrose is inconsistent with himself if Transubstantiation be an Article of his Faith. For he saith in another place non iste panis est qui vadit in Corpus sed ille panis vitae aeternae qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulcit That is it is not that Bread which goes into the Body but the Bread of Life eternal which sustains the substance of the Soul. Now what a Judge has Mr. P. chosen toward the deciding of a Controversie in which he is not reconcil'd to himself Secondly This Author in all probability has been further tamper'd with for he would scarce have said that in the Breviary seeing he own'd the Canon of the Mass in his time to run otherwise than now it does in the Roman Missal and to assert that the Elements were the Figure of Christ's Body Sècondly For the Testimony of S. Cyril it was not that cited thus in the Speculum S. Cyril Alexandrinus c. For Mr. P. spake of S. Cyril of Jerusalem and tho' he did not produce the words yet he said they were those in his fourth Mystagogical Catechism I say now as I then did That the place was long ago fully answered The place of S. Cyril is by a Romanist M. W. thus rendered Tho' you see it to be Bread yet believe it is the Flesh and the Blood of the Lord Jesus Doubt it not since he had said This is my Body And for a proof instances Christ's changing Water into Wine The Answer is this and it is a true one We acknowledge that the words of S. Cyril of Jerusalem were truly cited but for clearing of them we shall neither alledge any thing to the lessening the Authority of that Father tho' we find but a slender Character given of him by Epiphanius and others Nor shall we say any thing to lessen the Authority of these Catechisms tho' much might be said But it is plain S. Cyril's design in these Catechisms was only to possess his Neophytes with a just and deep sense of these holy Symbols But even in his fourth Catechism he bids them not to consider it as meer Bread and Wine for it is the Body and Blood of Christ. By which it appears he thought it was Bread still tho' not meer Bread. And he gives elsewhere a very formal account in what sense he thought it Christ's Body and Blood which he also insinuates in his Fourth Catechism for in his first Mystical Catechism when he exhorts his young Christians to avoid
Pulton on this manner Sir I was inform'd that on Sunday last in the Afternoon after you had finished your Exposition on some Point in the Catechism you spake to the Company in the Chappel to this Effect I believe you have heard of a late Conference in which I was concern'd It is not the way of Catholicks to make a great noise of such Matters but if the Protestants make a stir about it then next Sunday in this place I will give you an Account of that which pass'd in that Conference Mr. Pulton and the other Jesuit own'd that he had said this and that he was not Misrepresented upon which Dr. Tenison told him that he had opened the Scene and that if he himself had done so at St. Martins it was his Opinion he should not have observ'd the Rules of Peace and Decency Mr. Pulton answered He had neither named Dr. Tenison in his Chappel nor elsewhere spoken ill of him and that he was moved to this by the Dirt that was cast upon him by Papers and Words in Coffee-houses Dr. Tenison assured him That he was not the Author of such Papers or Words and that he himself had had his share of Slanderous Words from some of his Party and he gave him a remarkable Instance of that Nature which is in Dr. Tenison's Account above Repeated After which Dr. Tenison said that he came to make a double Proposal to him either to give one another Liberty to use such Discourse and to Publish such Papers in all Companies and Places as should seem meet to each of them or else to proceed as was agreed upon at the end of the Conference That is to say First That Dr. Tenison should send in Writing to Mr. Pulton what he judged fit of that which had passed and of that which he had undertaken in a Paper which he sign'd relating to Mr. Pulton's First Quotation out of St. Ambrose as also of that which he said in Reference to Mr. Pulton's Second Quotation out of the Catechism of St. Cyril of Jerusalem and his Third Read by the same Mr. Pulton out of a Printed Paper and cited as Justin Martyr's Then that Mr. Pulton should send to Dr. Tenison his Answer in Writing After which they might proceed to more Quotations and further Replies Here Mr. Pulton stuck a while and show'd a little Heat which his Friend soon temper'd Mr. Pulton would have confined Dr. Tenison to that which he call'd his Main Point and complain'd further that Dr. Tenison would not hear out all his Quotations though there was not time for all there being others in a Paper Book besides that in his Breviary and those in his Printed Sheets and to allude to them as call'd the Soldiers Paper to hear all read over before the answering of One seemed to Dr. Tenison as absurd as not to permit a Soldier to answer to his Name till all the Muster-Roll is call'd over Further Dr. Tenison was for setting forth the Matter at length and desir'd not to be confin'd to Mr. Poulton's new Method leaving him to the liberty of making such Objections as he judged fit in the Case Mr. Pulton's Friend perswaded him to go on thus and at last Mr. Pulton yielded to it Here Dr. Clegat interpos'd and said That Dr. Tenison had taken a good Course to prevent false Reports by coming to him to adjust the Method betwixt themselves and that it had been better if Mr. Pulton had done the like before he had spoken of the Matter in his Chappel in the Savoy and that Dr. Tinison had by his Proposition show'd that his Intentions were fair Then some Discourse was had about St. Ambrose de Sacramentis another Place in the true St. Ambrose and Alexander Natalis's Arguments about the former Book Dr. Clegat said That his Arguments had need be good for he knew that Writer too well to take any thing upon his meer Authority Then Dr. Clegat being to go into the Country was desirous to take leave but before that was done Dr. Tenison intreated Mr. Pulton to give him such Printed Sheets as he had used at the Conference Mr. Pulton said he knew not where they were and went into his Study to look for them but came again and said he could not find them Then Dr. Tenison ask'd him what Title they had he said he had forgot It seem'd strange that he should forget the Title of a Writing out of which he had Disputed though 't is plain he was not perfectly Vers'd in it for there he might have found Pope Innocent the Third about whom he was at a loss The Truth is the Title was such that it was not worth the remembring though it was so Remarkable that a Man could scarce forget it viz. Speculum Eccelesiasticum rendred an Ecclesiastical Prospective-glass instead of Looking-glass But as Phantastical as it was and as falsly render'd they found it Pasted up in the Entrance to the Savoy Chappel and there left it Mr. Pulton being with them and having told them that the Woman that sold those Sheets who was then out of the way or else N. T. would furnish them with this Piece So they took leave Civilly one of another after Mr. Pulton had Courteously invited Dr. Clegat and Dr. Tenison to taste of their Beer and they being in haste had with Thanks excused themselves This is a Faithful Relation of what passed at the Savoy whilst I was there with Dr. Tenison Mr. Pulton and another Jesuit Octob. 3d. William Clegat Dr. Tenison afterwards looking into these Sheets was amaz'd that Mr. Pulton should be so earnest to read further Quotations from them for there he found a great many Books plainly spurious besides that De Sacramentis under St. Ambrose's Name cited as genuine of this Number are these The Third Epistle of St. Anacletus Canon 39. Arab. of the First Council of Nice St. Cyril of Hierusalem l. 3. in Apol. contra Ruffin c. 4. If there be such a Book in the World ascrib'd to St. Cyril by any one before I suppose he has Confounded St. Cyril with St. Hierom in the Second Tome of whose Works is such a Book as Apologiae adversus Ruffinum libri tres But enough of this Magical-glass which shows us St. Cyril in another Man's Figure and sets before our Eyes Pope Leo presiding in the Council of Chalcedon and Pope Vigilius presiding in the Second Council of Constantinople with other such Sights which the Learned World ne'er saw before On Octob. 9th being the Lords Day Mr. Pulton in the Mass-house at the Savoy spake thus to the People I know it is expected I should now speak of a late Conference I had but the Dr. having since then been with me to acquaint me he had not taken any Measures about speaking thereof in the Pulpit desir'd therefore that I would not to which I promis'd him so for your Information of what passed there you are to expect it from Methods which may be concluded on
to be contrary to the Bible and therefore that which is tenderest they are not so willing to touch in popular Conferences It is enough if they can get them to the Authority of their Church and then the obedient Child swallows whatsoever the Mother gives it 3. It is said no particular Answer was given it will be found otherwise in the account of the Conference But if a sufficient Sum be tendered and Mr. P. be out of humour to receive it he ought not to complain that he cannot have his Debt paid him If Dr. T. had said less certainly it had not been out of unreadiness to answer seeing in that matter he was prepared he having publish'd a Tract about the Rule of Faith of which a second Edition came forth but a while ago and no Answer has been yet made to it whether out of contempt of the imperfections of it or for other Reasons he cannot tell And here seeing Self-defence is not vanity he takes occasion to make mention of another Tract scribbled by him against the Romish Author of the Protestants Plea for a Socinian at the latter end of which Mr. Meredith's Question about being judg'd by another or going on our own head is answer'd tho not so fully as by another Pen and to be perpetually answering Questions answered already is a Task which a person of good breeding will not impose till the Answer first given is refuted by him It is true there was one who cited a few lines of the latter Tract who if he had cited a few more had spoil'd his design of Misrepresentation His words are these If you have seen the Answer to the Protestants Plea for a Socinian you 'l find there Pag. 26. he points it out for the mark of a Right Socinian to make Reason the Rule of the Scriptures Such a one says he makes Reason the Rule of the Rule He goes no farther for that which follows shews the Author to have spoken of their Reasonings not of Reason it self which if any Man allows them in their own Doctrines he in effect does yeild them the Cause That which there follows is this Though he the Right Socinian thinks a Doctrine is plain in Scripture yet if he believes it to be against HIS REASON He assents not to it And P. 27. A Man of this Church of England suspects not Reason it self but his own present Art of Reasoning whensoever it concludes against that which he reads and reads without doubting of the Sense of the Words If the Representer can come no nigher the Likeness he may if he please lay down his Pencil D. T. owns that this is a Digression but he judged it better seeing there was no more needed to write a Paragraph in defence of himself against a publick unjust Cavil than to trouble the World with a whole Book 4. Whereas it is said that by the Universal Church Dr. T. said he meant the several Bodies who make up the Number of Christians which Mr. P. afterwards calls distinct Bodies Dr. T. did not use that Phrase For his Words were remarkable enough that he meant by the Universal Church what he called it every Lords Day before Sermon the Congregation of Christian People dispersed throughout the World. And he added that he took in the Testimony of Jews and Heathens and might believe Men sincere when they spake against themselves and that he also took in the Roman Church in the better Ages and honest Men in it who in the corrupter Ages gave Testimony against its Corruptions as they arose And he always inserted this Caution that he took this Testimony from such Universal Consent with Considerations of the Persons as agreeing Witnesses and not from their Authority 5. There is Craft in putting in the words distinct Bodies as if the Being of a Church could not be continued and the Corruptions of it opposed and relinquish'd without going forth to some other Body of Men free from all such Corruptions Mr. P. may please to answer Dr. T. in this Point about the Church of the Literal Israel besides which there was then no other Church and enlighten him by the Resolution of this Query whether there may be a Reformation in a Church without leaving of it The Learned Dr. Jackson said it long ago That our Church was in the Romish Church before Luther's Time and yet in it neither as a visible Church altogether distinct from it nor as any native Member of it To his Arguments and Explications at present I refer Mr. P. tho there are others of other kinds of equal weight and clearness For the rest the aforesaid Account of the Conference will shew how far this Paper of Mr. Pulton's is true and whether it contains a fair Proposal when it offers in Exchange for the Contents of it that which is really thinner Stuff and much shorter Measure The Account written by Mr. Pulton A True Account of a Conference had about Religion between Dr. T. and A. P. on the 29th of September 1687 in Long-Acre London Dr. T 's Note MR. P. scattered Copies of this Account and Dr. T. saw three of them on Monday October the 10th Dr. T. and Mr. P. spent their time very ill if so lame an Account as this of a four-Hours Conference be a true one How far it is from the whole Truth has been already shewn in Dr. T 's fuller and more impartial Relation And it is so ill repeated that Mr. P. having by so doing made it his own may take the whole to himself For Dr. T 's part he will not be his Stirrop to be let down and taken up at his Pleasure That which is against him is omitted by him and that which he thinks is for him is added tho never spoken Mr. Pulton's Account ON Monday there came a Youth to A. P. who desir'd to know if he was willing to accept of a Conference with D. H. concerning Religion He answer'd that he was But on Tuesday it was told him Dr. T. would be the Person he must meet at 3 in the Afternoon on Thursday Accordingly the Parties met on the said Thursday being Michaelmas Day A. P. came with one Witness no Priest Dr. T. alone And when the Doctor excepted against the Gentleman A. P. was willing he should retire and pitch'd upon another who casually came in at the same time tho not so much as known by name to A. P. If the Doctor would have no Witness present then A. P. desir'd all might depart except the young Man upon whose account they met the Room being now full The Doctor not assenting to that a A. P. press'd much that whatsoever should be said on either side might be writ down but this not being accepted of the Subject of the Conference was proposed by A. P. who desir'd the Doctor to give the young Man b a Rule of Faith which might keep him in the Church of England After some Preambles the Doctor was pleas'd
Point of Controversy in time of Schools or tamper with him out of them And this was the Conclusion of our Conference s If any doubt of the Truth of any thing here asserted let him go to Dr. T. to be inform'd and desire him to shew the t Famous Paper as also to receive a more satisfactory Answer than A. P. could to the main Question A. P. had never gone so far as to give any publick account of this Affair had not the Town and Kingdom been already full of very false injurious and scandalous Reports relating thereunto And tho upon the Doctors instance A. P. promised not to speak of it from the Pulpit Sunday next the 9th of this Instant as he had intended yet now being so far provoked he could not in Honour and Conscience but find some means to disabuse the World since his Adversaries tho he believes not the Doctor have been so industrious to impose upon it Dr. Tenison's Notes upon it MR. P's Account begins unluckily for he stumbles at the first setting out he makes as if the Appointment which came from the Romans proceeded from Dr. T. who till it was made knew nothing of it a A. P. press'd Writing yet when Dr. T. began to do so he declined it But whereabouts would these Disputers be a while ago they were all for verbal Conferences when written ones were offered as more safe and useful Dr. T. is Witness of this in a greater Case and so is an excellent Bishop and a worthy Dean Now when verbal Conferences are agreed to Writing is press'd b A Rule of Faith which might keep the Boy in the Church of England A new Art of shutting the Doors of St. Martin's Church for the keeping in of a Person who was before gone out and gone as far as Rome c Two things incumbent on the Doctor to prove 1. That the Books which he called the Scriptures were truly such 2. That when so proved they were of themselves a sufficient Rule But to the second Point nothing was said Good Reason for it was never propounded the only Question of that kind was Whether our Bible was a Bible and how we could prove it to be so The Sufficiency and Purity of the Scriptures were Points never started This Dr. T. is certain of from his own Memory and from the Concurrence of more than an ordinary number of Witnesses whom upon this new Narrative he consulted d All the World Turks c. The Turks were never named on this occasion It had been monstrously absurd if they had And when some judicious People present at the Conference heard this Paragraph of Mr. P's Narrative they were amazed at the Invention But no Additions are to be wondered at where Men will add to the Creed it self e Different Bodies who make up the whole Number of Christians This Mistake of Mr. P's may be rectified by what is said before in Dr. T 's Account and Notes on Mr. P's Paper f The Sense of holy Scripture being as he said depraved If he means Dr. T. 't is a great Slander It is true he said it was happy for the World that the Copies of the Bible were so widely dispersed for if they had been all in Roman Hands they wou'd have been in Danger Of this Dr. T. was reminded by some of the Hearers of the Conference upon the Perusal of this Narrative g A pleasant Schoolmaster diverted the Auditory with a Picture The Schoolmaster is of Age and he will answer for himself h St. Paul had us'd as sharp Language in a like occasion This about St. Paul Dr. T. does not remember nor do others who stood by Mr. M. for he spake of St. Jude but perhaps it might be so i Harangue Dr. T. knows not what Mr. P. means by this For to repeat a Verse out of St. Jude about the Disputation betwixt Michael and the Devil is not properly haranguing k Mr. M. from the Window whither A. P. had desired him to retire Mr. M. stay'd much longer for he began to write upon the Back of D. T 's Paper as is aforesaid And he removed upon a Gentlewoman's coming to him with a Mask in her Hand which gave occasion to another of that Sex to say to Mr. M. he chose to dispute rather with Ladies than Doctors It is unhappy that amidst so many things we can have nothing sincere and in its Naturals l A. P. could never obtain any satisfactory Answer to his Difficulty proposed The Account shews that fit Answer was obtain'd tho not accepted m Which when A. P. was ready to prove There was no occasion for that for it was then granted that he was at Rome but not till 25 years after Christ's Ascension n The Doctor pass'd to the Real Presence and Transustantiation Whereas he was led into it by Mr. P. upon his reading about it out of his Books and Sheets o He desired to hear St. Ambrose Mr. P. began with it of his own meer Motion pulling out his Breviary and reading the words Dr. T. was so far from desiring to hear St. Ambrose first that when Mr. P. began with him out of St. Ambrose he told him he should not begin with so late an Author but with S. Clement and so go downwards And if Mr. P. said any thing in general about Places in the true St. Ambrose Dr. T. did not hear him repeat the Words Nor is any other Book of St. Ambrose cited in his Breviary in that Place p But that the Doctor would not note down He had no reason to write a second Paper after having been refus'd signing of the first But he spake enough to the Place as is before rehearsed q Sum of Money This was said to Mr. M. at the Window in the back-Room by Dr. T. himself Mr. M. complain'd that Dr. T. was too hard upon Mr. P. supposing that Book was not St. Ambrose's Dr. T. appeals to Mr. M. whether his answer was not this If a Man be to pay me a Sum of Money and the first peice I take proves a brass Half-Crown he that offers it to me either knows it not or knowing of it is not honest in offering it as good Coin. If Mr. P. will own either of these that he was either ignorant or insincere I am content r The Papists were by their Principles Breakers of their Word Mr. P. has forgotten all about his Aequivocation about Luther Pope Innocent and the Council of Lateran the places of Scripture the Pope's Jurisdiction c. But he will not fail of his Insinuation He is an Enemy unto Caesar. And he here makes a Syllogism which upon the place the Protestants could not hear and he omits Dr. T 's answer to Mr. M. and the Sense of the Company s If any doubt of the Truth of any thing here asserted let him go to Dr. T. to be inform'd There have many come and none have gone away yet unsatisfied t The famous Paper No Body boasted of the Paper
that Dr. T. knows of with relation to the Contents of it But they laid some weight upon one's writing signing and the other 's refusing Dr. T. had no great value for it for he left it on the Table But it may be it became the more famous for having been put by Mr. P. into his Pocket out of which after much shuffling about it not knowing where to find it he was prevailed with to pull it by the importunity of an ingenious Woman Thus far the Account reach'd which was written with Mr. P's own Hand But in other Copies it was added at the End that Mr. P. desired to meet where Books were and to have a Scrivener If he did he was not in danger of losing what he long'd for For it was more than once when Historical Things were talk'd of that Dr. T. desired that Coaches might be call'd for and that they might go where Books might be consulted And when Offers by Dr. T. were made about a Bible about Beda Aeneas Sylvius Hoveden and others they were refused Dr. T. is certain that the Author of the Speculum if he has been by Books has not been in them But to what purpose is it to go into Libraries when they have already furnish'd the World in the Speculum with Authorities enough and it may purchase them for Six-Pence The Copy of a Letter written by a Romanist and conveyed by the Apprentice of in L. A. to J. S. in order to his transcribing it and sending iâ— to his Father into the Country Most Dear and Honoured Father NOthing could be more sensible to me than your extraordinary Affection you were pleased to shew in your last and was there any thing less than an Eternity at stake and the saving or losing my Immortal Soul I should have all the repentance in the World of disobliging you Dear Father take therefore a sum of those Motives which oblige me in Conscience to betake my self to the Church I am now resolv'd to embrace The Roman-Catholick Church is allow'd to have been once the true Church built upon the Rock against which our Saviour promised Hell should never prevail whence unless we will give our Saviour the Lye she is still so The Church I am inform'd had power during the four first Centuries to summon and precide in General Councils when any Debate arose concerning Religion and they were reputed Hereticks who obeyed not her Decision Now the same Reason and Authority which proves her to have had that power then proves she must retain it still Again I have heard clearly made out that those or that Church are all of one Faith in all Countries Whereas our Reform'd Churches all clash among themselves and divide and subdivide without end and it can't be otherwise they having no assured Guide upon which they can rely It is the Catholick-Church alone which is taught in all Countries and none but the Pastors of that Church have any Zeal to go among Barbarous and Idolatrous People to convert them and if there be any Faith in History God has seconded their Labours with manifest Miracles Power over Devils and the like And I have never heard of any who can assume that to themselves beside them Again I am inform'd that among them abundance of Noble and Rich People follow the Evangelical Counsels and leave all for God's sake and that they built and founded all those Monuments of Devotion and Churches we see now extant Whereas our Reform'd Religions have only serv'd to pull them down And as I have lastly understood was founded on the Leachery of King Harry the 8th the Ambition of the Tutor of King Edward the 6th and Violence of Queen Elizabeth and only preserv'd by the Rigors of Penal Laws and spilling the Blood of those who for a thousand Years had profess'd the Catholick Faith. All these things I have heard proved with so much shew of Truth that I should resist the Holy Ghost if I obey'd not the Inspiration I have to become a Roman Catholick Dr. Tenison has discours'd before me four Hours but I am more confirm'd than I was before Dear Father Let not the force of Education and Prejudice so by as your Judgment as to be angry with me for the best thing I ever have done in my Life and if you had heard as much as I I am sure you would have that Sense of your Soul as to do as I do All the Stories of their Selling Pardons of their Idolatry and bloody Principles are nothing but meer Calumnies I humbly therefore crave that I may notwithstanding my present Resolution still be esteem'd as I am with all Submission Dear Father Your most Obedient and Affectionate Son. Dr. T 's Notes on this Letter THE Original of this Letter was sent to Dr. T. together with this Account of it After J. S. had copied it and it was seen where he had laid it and was taken from thence Mr. V. asked J. S. whether he had finished his Letter and from what Copy he had taken it He answered from no Copy he urg'd him thrice and he still denied it At last Mr. V. brought forth the Original and shew'd it to him c. then he was silent instead of begging Pardon of God and his Master The Author of the Letter fail'd in his own Art of Cunning for he endeavoured to write an accurate Letter for a Boy who is not able to write one correct Line as is plain by that which may be seen in his former Letter to his Father He should not have perfumed his Paper if he would not have had the Protestants to smell him out 1. He begins the first Motive by saying and by taking that for granted which no Protestant will yield to him that the Roman Catholick Church is allowed to have been once THE True Church This first Motive is a Fallacy of The Church for A Church The Roman was once A true Church but never The Church and a true Church may fail in Process of Time as some of the seven Churches of the Lesser Asia did and St. Paul caution'd the Romans themselves against immoderate Confidence lest They as well as the obstinate Israclites should be cut off 2. The second Motive is taken from the Power of the Church to summon Councils and to preside in them This is the same Fallacy again of the Power of The Church in General and of the particular Church of Rome whose Popes were sometimes condemned by Councils which the Emperors summon'd It is absurd to say that the Church presides over the Council and they who presided had Priority by it for that season but not further Power Mr. Pulton's or Mr. Ward 's Speculum shews Sylvester as presiding at the first Council of Nice but when he recollects himself and finds he should have represented Hosius instead of Sylvester for he was not as is pretended his Legat he will I suppose not be so liberal of Power to the President of a Council
are very little Remarks but they discover that which by God's Grace I shall always abhor great Shifting and Insincerity 30. He says that Pope Nicholas never taught that the People ate Christ's Flesh as divided into many pieces But how then does he construe the Confession of Berengarius enjoyn'd by the said Pope and his Synod I profess from my Heart that the true Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is and is sensually not only in the Sacrament but in Verity handled and broken by the Priests Hands and ground by the Teeth of the Faithful 32. Dr. T. is said to have cited Mariana and Suarez He never nam'd them The Schoolmaster did He spake only of Becanus and Doleman and of him not under the Name of Parsons for if Parsons own'd that Book he thinks 't was another Person that wrote it 32. Mr. P. ends as he brake up the Conference with insnaring Words about Persecution and the Q. of Scots and the Bill of Exclusion and he writes as if he had been transcribing Philanax or the Book whence he borrow'd Jerusalem and Babel And makes the fierceness of some Men to be the Spirit of the Reformation I will not touch upon indecent Arguments but conclude by wishing that Mr. P. well knew what Spirit he is of THE END a Pasc. Radb de Corp. Sang. Dom. c. 3. op p. 1561. sunt autem sacramenta Christi in Ecclesia baptismus Chrisma corpus quoque domini sanguis a V. Vit. Lutheri ap Melch. Ad. p. 104. b See Lat. Council To. 7. Act. 4. Con. 2. Nic. p. 253 254. Act. 5. p. 382. a La Creance de l Eglise Orientale sur la Transubst c. A Par. 87. a Letter to B. of L. p. 367. a Infra Oct. Corp. Christi Lectio 4. Tu forte dicis meus panis est usitatus Sed panis iste panis est ante verba Sacramentorum ubi accesserit consecratio de pane fit Caro Christi Hoc igitur astruamus quomodo potest qui panis est corpus esse Christi Consecratione Lectio 5. Vides ergo quam operatorius sit sermo Christi Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini Jesu ut inciperent esse quae non erant quanto magis operatorius est ut sint quae erant in aliud commutentur Coelum non erat mare non erat terra non erat Sed audi dicentem ipse dixit facta sunt Ipse mandavit creata sunt Ergo tibi ut respondeam non erat corpus Christi ante consecrationem sed post consecrationem dico tibi quod jam corpus est Christi Ipse dixit est factum ipse mandavit creatum est a Deut. 17. 8 to 13. a Rer. Liturg l. 1. c. 7. p. 351. a Guid 1 Spir. per Il dott Mich. di Molinos sacerdote p. 318. Quarta impressione in Roma 1681. b De Sacr. l. c. c. 4 p. 447. b De Sacram l. 4. cap. 5. p. 439. Accipe quae sunt verba Dicit sacerdos fac nobis inquit banc oblationem ascriptam c. Quod est figura corporis sanguinis D. N. J. Christi c See Relation of a Conference by Ed. Still c. An. 1676. p. 36 37. and Append. p. 50 51 52. d Cyril Catech. Myst. 3. p. 235. and Catech. 4. p. 237. a St. Cyril p. 237. C. a St. Cyril Catech. 3. Ilâ—um p. 16. B. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Sophron. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 D. Hieron l. de Ser. Eccles Quis in Adolescentia composuit b Just. Mart. Apol. 2. p. 97 98. c Gr. Nyss. dc S. Ch. B. a I will prove if you please that this was a common Story T. T. a Diff. betwixt Prot. and Socin Meth. p. 57 58 c. b Judge in Contr. c The Catholick Representer 2 part ch 9. p. 58. * Dr. Jacks Works Tom. 3. cap. 16. p. 870. Rom. 11. 20 21 22. a Gerb. Dissert de Caus. major V. Bref du 8 Decemb. p. 84 85. Act. Cl. Gall. a See Mr. Barclay 's possib and necessity of immed Revel And Scarlot 's Eternal Gospel b Gabiut in vitâ Pii 5. c. 9. p. 102. tandem divino judicio impiam vitam cum sempiternâ morte commutaverit c. a V. H. de Knyghton p. 2647. b Eus. E. Hist. l. 2. c. 14. p. 41 l. 3. c. 1. p. 56 57. V. Orig. Exp. in Gen. Tom. 3. c Lact. de mort Perfec ap Baluz Misc. p. 2 3. * Decreti par 3. 1. 42. de Consecr p. 1932. Corde profiteor verum Corp. Sangu D. N. J Chr. esse sensualiter non solùm sacramento sed in veritate manibus Sacerdotum tractari frangi fidelium dentibus atteri c.