obiections of the errors of Popes and Councels refuted So can I whensoeuer you shall instance any such particular refutation which may ease you of some paines if it be so sufficiently performed referre you to some of the authors of our side where the same reasons haue been with no lesse sufficiencie handled and replied to assuring my selfe That neither any of you haue or can make any obiections against the doctrine we professe that hath not beene already obiected and likewise by vs answered And if any will shew me the contrary I will be beholding to him neither will I shut mine eyes against the trueth If this which I haue sayd may any whit preuaile with you to make shew of that great learning whereof in your Letter you haue boasted by your liberall vndertaking to proue so many particulars which hitherto as great Clerkes as your selfe haue failed in I shall be ready and willing to performe whatsoeuer I haue herein promised Otherwise I pray you returne the booke as you receiued it and you shall see that some such course shal be taken as shal make you blush to haue censured so rashly Your friend in Christianity and Charitie T. V. A briefe view of the weaknesse of the Grounds of Popish Religion as is euident by these seuerall Obiections and Answeres following Protestant 1WHereupon doe you ground your Religion Papist Vpon the word of God interpreted by the Church which cannot erre Protestant 2 What do you vnderstand by the Word of God Papist The Scriptures and Traditions Protestant 3 What doe you vnderstand by the Church Papist Stapl. princi doct l. 7 ca. 10. l. 11 ca. 5 Hervaeus de potest pap R. Cupers Petrus de Palude de potest papae Aâ— 4. The Church is sometimes taken for the auncient Fathers sometimes for generall Councels Sometimes we preferre the head of the Church the Pope before both Protestant 4 Well that we may procéede orderly in the handling of these particulars Doe you receiue all the bookes of the Old and Newe Testaments with equall authoritie Papist No but following the Tradition of the Church we distinguish betweene the Canonicall and the Apocrypha Protestant 5 Which are the Bookes which you call Apocrypha Papist Wee hold as Apocrypha The prayer of Manasses the third and fourth booke of Esdras Also others that are not vsuall in your English Bibles as an Appendix to the booke of Iob The 151. Psalme A preface to the Lamentations of Ieremie The third and fourth booke of Maccabees Protestant 6 Well we agrée with you in the reiection of these Bookes And we likewise consent with you That all the bookes of the New Testament as they stand are to be receiued of all for Canonicall Scripture What are then the Bookes that are in question betwéene vs Papist There be 7. Chapters of Hester certaine Stories annexed to Daniel as Of Bel and the DragoÌ„ Of Susanna Of the three childreÌ„ Also the Epistle of Baruch ioyned to Ieremie Then the books of Tobie Iudeth The Wisedom of Salomon Ecclesiasticus Two bookes of the Maccabees These we repute as Canonical both by the testimony of the Fathers and by the authoritie of the Church Protestant 7 Well Since I shall haue cause hereafter to speake of the Church I wil but briefly giue a touch to the reason of the refusall of these Bookes All Canonicall Scriptures in the old Testament were written by the Prophets We haue a sure word of the Prophets 2. Pet. 1.19 saith Saint Peter And Saint Paul calleth them The Scriptures of the Prophets Rom. 16 2â— But none of those Bookes afore named of Tobias of Iudeth and the rest were written by the Prophets Therefore none of those Bookes are Canonical All the Bookes of the olde Testament that were Canonicall were acknowledged of the Iewes and Hebrewes and written in Hebrew But the Iewes receiued none of these Books into the Canon of the Scriptures though to them were committed the Oracles of God as Saint Paul sayth neither were they in the Hebrew tongue Ergo they are not Canonicall But to the end you may sée how well the Church of which you boast agrées with the testimonies of the Fathers both ancient moderne Hier prol galeat Eâ—i ad Pauli in praefat â—i Reg in praefat in â—ro Salom. I wil giue you this taste briefly S. Hierom saith The Church readeth those bookes but receiueth them not amongst the Canonicall Scriptures The summe of all which is confirmed by these testimonies following whose particular spéeches to this purpose for breuitie sake I omit referring you to the places themselues as they are here following set down As Rufinus in his exposition vpon the Créede Cyril of Hierusalem in the 4. of his Catechisme Athanasius in Synop. Sacr. Scriptur Nazianzen in Carminis Epiphan li. de Mensur ponder Cyprian vpon the Créed Damasâ—en ca. 49. Hugo de Sanct. Victor de Sacram. in prol li. 1. ca. 7. Radulphus in Leuit. li. 14. c. 1. Lyra in prol in li. Apocry Hugo Cardina in prol Iosu All these contradict the opinion of the Papists in this controuersie yea Arias Montanus a chiefe Papist in his Hebrew Bible writeth in the forefront principal leafe of the booke There are added saith he in this Edition the bookes written in Gréek which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckoneth amongst the Apocrypha The Councel of Laodicea Can. 59. Constantinop in Trul lo Can. 2. allured by a general Councel of Constantinople in Trullo did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the old Church had our church doth hold commandeth Ne aliqui praeterea legantur in auctoritateÌ„ recipiaÌ„tur That none besides be read receiued into authority I omit many seueral contradictions in al or most of the books which we reiect they allow wherby they may be conuinced not to be written by the spirit of God which is alwaies one the same Sée the 4. Esdras 10.20 2. Maccab. 2.4 1. Mac. 1.6 8. touching Antiochus yea we wil confesse with Bellarmin Bellar. de ver Dei li. 1. cap. â— That the scriptures may be proued to be the Word of God by the constant perpetual truth of the Prophecies By the wonderful harmony consent of the holy writers of the Scriptures By the Spirit of God which is a principall witnes vnto vs By the scripture it selfe 2. Tim. 3. Lastly by the many great miracles wrought by the Prophets Apostles which do testifie for the truth thereof To the which touchstone if the Scriptures whith wee reiect were brought to the triall they would easily bee conuinced to bee but drosse and vnworthy to stand in the rankes of those that are Canonicall But how doe you knowe which are the Scriptures and in them which be Canonicall which be Apocrypha Papist I knowe by the testimonie of the Church which be the Scriptures and in them
A BRIEFE VIEWE of the weake Grounds of Popery As it was propounded to D. NORRICE Priest by T.V. Gent and returned without answere AT LONDN Imprinted by Humfrey Lownes for Samuel Macham and Mathew Cooke and are to be sold in Pauls Church-yard at the signe of the Tigers head 1606. To my dearest Cousins A. B. C. D. MY dearest Cousins with what zeale and feruencie both in my prayers and other indeuours I haue euer desired wee might be of one mind heart God Act. 6. and mine owne conscience can best testifie and your selues may partly witnes with me For as touching the means to this our atonement namely conference with the learned of ech others side and reading their bookes you know well I for my part haue neuer refused it but euermore gladly imbraced and diligently sought after it that so if truth wherof great vaunts were made had been found on your side my heart first then my hand might readily haue subscribed thereto But when I consider the doctrine of your Rhemists Tit. 3. Sect. and the answerable practise of their disciples forbidding you not onely to reade our bookes but to hold conuersation much more to haue conference with vs who must be Heretikes because they tearme vs so yea when I see they blush not to affirme That we are not to be heard â—fâ—r 3. â—ect 2. no not though we speake the trueth I almost despaire of your conuersion seeing the means are prohibited Now how much meeter it were in a case of such consequence being no lesse than the eternal safegard of your soules to leaue them with their errors and to hearken rather and conforme your faith to the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles I referre it to any seeing iudgement For the vniuersall consent of all the ancient Fathers alloweth the Scriptures for the onely Rule of faith as conteining in them all doctrine necessary to saluation And albeit I haue sufficiently among others cleared that question in this smal Treatise following yet will I somewhat inlarge the proofe of it in this place to the end you may better knowe That though you send vs for instruction to to the Fathers yet they send vs backe again to the Scriptures as the onely and sufficient Rule to direct vs. And in handling this point I will not much insist vpon diuine authority since I know you relye chiefly if not wholly on the Fathers Onely I will vrge these few testimonies of Scripture which ought to preuaile more with euery true Christian than all the Fathers how learned soeuer First our Sauiour willeth vs to search the Scriptures for that in them we thinke to haue eternall life Io. 5.39 Mark 1224. And he taxeth the Pharises of error because they were ignorant of the Scriptures 2. Tim. 3.15 16 17. S. Paul likewise affirmeth that they are able to make vs wise vnto saluation that the man of God may be perfite instructed to euery good worke And if this perswade you not I haue no hope that any Father can for as Christ saith Luk. 16.29 30 31. They haue Moyses and the Prophets if they will not heare them neither will they beleeue if one rose from the dead Now as to the Fathers though your side pretend so much to reuerence them yet in this question they wholly reiect them and that indeede not without cause seeing their authority in this one point might proue the downefall of your whole Religion it being confessed by some great Champions on your side That many and most of the doctrines wherin you varie from vs are grounded on Traditions and not on the Scriptures as any that will take the paines to reade may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the fift chapter of Canisius Catechisme in the * In fine fabulae 6. 5 booke of Lyndans Panoply yea * Scripto suâ— aedito tempore Trid. Concil Andradius saith That the greatest part of Catholike Religion is left vnto Traditions of the Church not written â—anopl li. 1. â— 22. demeÌ„â—ssimae insaâ—iae And the said Lyndan saith It is most extreme madnes to think that the whole entire Body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be fetched out of the Apostolike letters written with inke and out of that little booke of the new Testament And therefore so much the more are your leaders seducers to be taxed who perswade their folowers that the greatest differeÌ„ce between them and vs is touching the Sense of the Scripture wheras euery man of common sense wil easily iudge that where there is no Text there needs no Interpreter But let vs briefly see what opinioÌ„ the Fathers were of in this coÌ„trouersie betweene vs and how they haue vnderstood that Scripture which D. B. P. calles the Protestants Achilles which hee onely barkes at without further hurt â— B. booke â—gainst M â—erkins calâ—ed the 1. â—im 3. the â—rot Achilâ—es Hom. 9. Chrysostome vpon the same Text sayth If any thing be needefull for vs to learne or to be ignorant of there meaning in the Scriptures shal we learne it If to reproue falsehood from thence shal we draw it if any thing lacke to be corrected or rebuked which must be had vnto exhortation vnto comfort there also doe we learne it Likewise Ho. 8. vpon the 15. verse he saith The scriptures do teach both what things are to be done what not to be done Theodoret vpoÌ„ the same place saith The scripture is inspired of God Therfore he teacheth the kinds of vtilitie It is profitable to teach for whatsoeuer we know not we learne out of it To reproue It reproueth our wicked life To correct for it exhorteth that they which haue gone astray returne to the right way To instruct in righteousnesse for it teacheth vs the kinds of vertue that the man of God may bee perfit furnished to all good workes All these things doe attribute and ascribe perfection to the God of all Primasius saith Out of the scriptures he that is ignorant is taught Hee that is insolent is reprooued He that erreth is corrected He that can keep no measure is instructed to Iustice to euery good worke not vnto one Oecumenius sayth after he hath rehearsed the particular vtilities to teach all true opinions and good works to reprooue errors vice he concludeth that the man of God may be not onely partaker after a vulgar maner of euery goodworke but perfect and compleate by the doctrine of the scriptures Not to some kind of good worke and to some not But to all and euery good worke saith Theophilact Athanasius saith Atha contr gent. Chrys opeâ— imperf in Mat. Ho. 41. Aug. in Iohâ— Tract 44. The holy scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of trueth Chrysostome saith whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation all that is fully laid downe in the Scripture S. Augustine sayth There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy Ghost sufficient for
the saluation of the faithfull And in his second booke against Cresconius the Grāmarian he saith That there is an Ecclesiasticall Canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles By which bookes we iudge all other writings both of the faithful of the Infidels Hier. sup Agge cap. 1. Hierom sayth Those things which of their owne heads they deuise as though they came by Apostolike Tradition without the authority and testimony of the holy Scriptures the sword of Gods word striketh Infinite be the Authorities of the Fathers which might be brought to this purpose but I will conclude the point with Vincentius Lirinensis whome D.B.P. in his booke against M. Perkins Vincent aduer Haeres beleeueth not to haue any such wordes who saith The Canon of the Scripture is perfect and sufficient and more then sufficient to al things And again Not that saith he the Canon alone is not sufficient for all things These Fathers I hope knew the Scriptures aswell as D.B.P. or any other Papist and yet notwithstanding al his their obiections the Protestāts Achilles as he tearmeth it stands vnimpeacht by any thing that this or any other cauiller hath said And yet notwithstanding these euident places brought by the general consent of all the Fathers against the fundamētal Ground of Popery Your Rhemists wil tel you Rhem. Test 2. Thes 2. sect 18.19 if you wil beleeue them that they haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures all the fathers most euident reasons that wee must either beleeue Traditions or nothing at all And that S. Augustine often writeth That many of the articles of our Religion and points of highest importance are not so much to be prooued by Scriptures as by Tradition But if we aske them where S. Austine wrote this often and that of many articles of Religion and poynts of highest importance it must be returned with Non est inuentus Not to be found in S. Austin But they perceiuing the whole waight of their cause to lie in this Rhem. Test fol. 559. haue marshalled nine Fathers in a ranke to proue that we must either beleeue Traditions or nothing And yet the very same Fathers haue shewed That no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must bee receiued or beleeued without the Scriptures Cypr. ad Pomp. cont epist Stepha Basil contr Eunomium lib. 3. and the Fathers often times by Traditions vnderstand matters contained proued out of the scriptures that in regard the same was deliuered also by word And many times by Traditiōs they vnderstād ceremonies and customs Now chuse whether you will grant a flat contradiction in the Fathers or reconcile them thus and conclude with vs Ergo the Traditions they meane be no parts or points of the Christian faith For we haue their plain confession That all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures you produce them to witnes That your Traditions be not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your owne deponents wee conclude That your Traditions be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the Catholike faith Looke wel to this Issue They must either dissent frō you or from themselues Now if you will compare the late doctrine of the Romish Church with these Fathers it shal be euident That they haue not only dissented frō them but also vttered open blasphemy against the sacred Scriptures First Cardinal Cusanus intituleth his booke De authoritate ecclesiae Cōcilij supra contra scripturam Of the the authority of the Church Coūcel aboue against the scriptures Syluester Prierias master of the Popes palace Contr. Luther cōclusi de pot Papae saith That indulgences are warranted vnto vs not by the authority of the scripture but by the authority of the Church and Pope of Rome which is greater Boniface the Archbishop of Mentz saith That all men so reuerence the Apostolike See of Rome that they rather desire the ancient institution of Christian Religiō from the Pope than from the holy scripture This saying the Pope hath so approued that he hath caused it to be inserted into the Cannon lawe Dist 40. c. Si Papa Another saith whosoeuer resteth not on the doctrine of the Roman Church and B. of Rome Syluest Prier contr Luther as the infallible rule of God à qua sacra scriptura roburtrahit auctoritatem from which the sacred scripture draweth strength and authority he is an heretike Eckius saith De Ecclesia Scriptura nisi ecclesiae auctoritate non est authētica The scripture is not authētical but by the authority of the church Cardinal Hosius saith De expresso verbo Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome concerning any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whether and how it agreeth with the words of the scripture notwithstanding he hath ipsissimū verbū Dei the very word of God Cardinal Cusanus saith Nicol. Cusan ad Bohem epi. 7. It is no maruel though the practise of the Church expound the scriptures at one time one way and at an other time another way for the vnderstanding or sense of the scripture runneth with the practise And that sense agreeing with the practise is the quickening spirit Henric. doctor Magister sacripalatij Romae ad Legatos Bohemicos sub Felice Papa 1447. Ad Bohem. ep 2. and therefore the scriptures follow the Church but contrariwise the Church followeth not the scriptures Another saith The Pope may change the holy Gospel and may giue to the Gospel according to place and time another sense To conclude therfore with Cardinal Cusanus This is the iudgement saith he of all them that thinke rightly that foūd the authority vnderstanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church and not contrariwise lay the foundation of the Church in the authority of the scriptures I will not mention others that haue blasphemously said Vid. Chemnit exa par 1. pag. 47. That the scriptures without the authority of the Church are no better than Aesops Fables Thus you see how the Grounds of our Religiō are iustified by the Fathers against these blasphemies of the Romish Church And for that I knowe it commonly obiected that we refuse in disputation conference to handle the groūds of Religion I haue thought good in this smal Tract to examin though briefly the Grounds of your Romish Religion dialogue-wise to the end the truth may be the more liuely discerned by the obiections and answers Wherein if I haue not truely laid downe the Groūds of your Religion for the substance therof Or that they haue either bin mistaken by me or that vsing that breuity I haue done they might be more strongly or effectually vrged on your side or that the reasons vrged on our behalfe be either falsly alleaged or not truly handled I shall take it as a speciall grace done vnto me an argumēt of
doctrine of your Church else I knowe they will all disclaime from it hauing seen the errors and weaknesse thereof I will take vpon me to shew that in so short and friuolous a discourse you could hardly compile more absurdities than there are couched I wil proue for example that you mistake and vnderstand not the questions your selfe would seeme to handle that you most shamefully belie our Catholike writers guilefully alleage both Fathers and Scriptures heap testimonies of ancient writers without end or purpose make obiections to your selfe and answere thē not at all I will proue that you alleage false Councels amongst the nūber of true without any difference or distinctiō that you reproue Fathers writings as counterfeit which are most approued count bookes of Scriptures Apocrypha which are Canonicall I will prooue in these few lines you write contrary to your selfe contrary to your owne writers I will prooue that the booke is fraught with most palpable lies errors corruptions falsifications if you wil but procure as I sayd before that it may be countenanced by publike authority with the subscriptiōs of 2. or 3. the most deepest schollers of your Sect. In the meane time I let it passe with this bare censure and intreate you but to reade Bellarmine de Pont. de Concil where you shall find most of your obiections of the errors of Popes and Councels already refuted The true Copie of my Letter in answere hereof TO accuse without proofe to say and shewe no reason of all which you in your Letter may iustly be taxed might truely argue mee to want both substance order learning and trueth according to your owne phrase And to free your selfe from the same imputation haue you yeelded any other reason against my booke which you intitie a vaine bundle of words than a boasting bundle of vaine brags Turpe est doctori c. But you would seem to giue a reason why your bare censure as you rightly haue censured your selfe should be a sufficient answere to my booke vnlesse I can procure two or three of the best learned of our side to auow it vnder their hands to be the doctrine of our Church Else you knowe or else you are a false prophet they will all disclaime from it hauing seen the errors and weakenesse thereof But lest I seeme to taxe you with want of learning and truth with bare words onely without proofe as you in the height and eminency of your iudgement haue censured me Can there be greater shew of ignorance thā to require that to be auowed to be the doctrine of our Church which hath beene already by the learned of our side published to the whole world in many of their seueral books daily extāt to be seen And that I cōmit not your fault To speake without proofe do you but instance any one point of doctrine in all my booke and if I doe not shew where the same is iustified by the learned of our side I will willingly acknowledge that error wherewith I haue here charged your selfe And to make it yet more euident if I should require you to confirme the doctrine you should deliuer by two or three of your best Diuines when the same had been published already by Bellarmine Gregorius Valencia your Rhemists and others could any thing conuince me of grosser ignorance It seemes notwithstanding your vaine brag That that you would prooue 15. particularities wherewith you haue charged me and my booke that you are but meanely read in controuersies otherwise you could not be ignorant that there is no doctrine in my booke that is not auowed published either by Iewel against Harding or the B. of Winchester that now is or by D. Rainolds D. Whittaker D. Fulke D. Sparke with many others And albeit I could not haue cōfirmed thus much by these cleere testimonies yet if you had Christianly and charitably weighed with what mind my request was made in my Preface to my Kinsmen wherin I had intreated in these very words That if I had not truely layd downe the Grounds of your Religion for the substance or if they had been mistaken by mee or vsing that breuity I had done they might more strongly haue been vrged or if the reasons I had vrged had been falsly alleaged or not truely handled c. That I would haue taken it as a speciall grace done vnto me c. to haue had the faults thereof manifested shewed that I might haue been drawen to haue been of the same profession with them c. you would neuer haue insisted vpon such a subscription of the deepest schollers of our Sect thereby to haue cauilled and shifted off the answere of my booke how vnlearned soeuer it had been either for the methode or matter But you imagined your wordes were so powerfull that it was sufficient for your followers that you had onely giuen your censure without shewing any further reason Besides my request being so charitable reasonable it seemes you haue small care of winning of soules otherwise I perswade my selfe if you had been assured of your owne sufficiencie to haue answered the booke you would neuer haue insisted vpon so friuolous a request Nor haue preferred the vaine-glory of hauing a learned aduersary before the hope you might not without good probabilitie haue conceiued in reducing many by my conuersion or rather indeede peruersion to haue been of your profession I professe for my part I cannot see any other ground of your Letter directed to me than to inlarge your own ostentation and glory to your followers For to vndertake that you would prooue this and this and not to haue returned the booke whereunto you required the subscription what can be inferred thereof but that you would winne time to delay and shift off the answere But if you will proceede according to my request in the Preface of my booke proue as much as by your Letter you haue presumed without seeking some new shift to delay the time further I will engage my selfe that the same shall bee replied to by one euery way equall to your selfe in all knowledge and literature who notwithstanding the aduantage you promise to your selfe of the absurdities committed by me shall defend the cause I manage and subscribe the same defence with his owne hand Otherwise you shall gaine thus much by your trauell that I wil willingly submit my selfe to be a member of your Church If you refuse these reasonable conditions I must vse your owne olde phrase and tell you that I must needs thinke your cause so weake that it cannot bee maintained I omit to charge you with inciuility in giuing me the Lie For that I cannot but pitie your ignorance that cannot as it seemes though all were false I had sayd speaking by relation distinguish betweene a lie and vntrueth And whereas you referre me in the conclusion of your Letter to Bellarmin de Pont. de Concilijs where you say I shall find most of my
which be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Protestant 8 How do you know which is the Church And by what meanes may it be knowen that the Church hath authoritie to determine which be Scriptures and which of them be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Papist There be many notes and markes reckoned vp by the learned of our side by which the Church may be knowen But we insist chiefly vpon these Antiquitie Vnitie Vniuersality Succession and the power of Miracles And for the authority of the Church it is prooued by the Scriptures Protestant 9 This answere is common to all Heretikes for they alleage somtimes the a Author ope Imper. in Mat. Ho. 48. Church sometime b Iren. adu Haere lib. 3. cap. 2. Traditions sometime c Aug. coÌ„tr Maxim Ariâ— episc li. 1. Councels sometime d De Bapt. c. 6. li. 3. Fathers sometime e In Ioh. ca 2. tract 13 Miracles sometime f De vnit eccle c. 16. Visions sometime g Epist 65. ad gener Succession of Bishops yea h Act. 19.27 Demetrius pretended Vniuersalitie And the i Act. 17 18 19. Philosophers Epicures and Stoickes Antiquity And k Vinc. Lir. ca. 6 ca. 4. Vincentius Lirinensis disproueth Vniuersalitie by the example of the Arrians and Antiquity by the example of the Donatists And for their l In Chron. Suput Rom. prat Sigon de Regn. Ital li. â— Vnitie let that appeare in the seuerall oppositions of their Popes one condemning the decrées of another and decréeing one contrary to another And therefore this is no sufficieÌ„t reason for a man to ground his faith and Religion if we beléeue the m StapletoÌ„ Fortresse Hart. ag Ra. pag. 118. Papists in the like cause for it is a common obiection by them that because Heretikes alleage the Scripture therefore they are no suffieient rule Moreouer this answere passeth the limits of the proposition for it presupposeth the authoritie of the Church to be prooued by the Scriptures and the Scriptures to be prooued by the authority of the Church which is Ignotum per ignotius Idem per idem A proofe of a thing vnknowen by a thing lesse knowen and so no proofe at all Therefore to procéede to the next part of the diuision what doe you vnderstand by Traditions Papist I vnderstand Apostilicall doctrine commonly called vnwritten verities and as D.B. P. in his booke against M. Perkins diuides them Some are Diuine some Apostolicall and some Ecclesiasticall all which according to the Councel of Trent are to be receiued with equall reuerence Conc. Trid. Sess 4. and religious affection as we do the Scriptures Protestant 10 How doe you proue Traditions or vnwritten verities to bee Apostolicall doctrine and that they be Diuine Apostolicall and Ecclesiasticall and that they are to bee receiued with equall reuerence and religious affection as we doe the Scriptures Papist 2. Thess 2 15. I proue it by the Scriptures interpreted by the Church Saint Paul saith Hold the Trations which yee haue learned whether it bee by word Conc. Trid. â—ess 4. or by Epistle which by the Churches exposition proueth vnwritten verities to be receiued with equall authoritie to the Scriptures and to explane the same D.B.P. aforesayd affirmeth that Diuine Traditions come from our Sauiour Christ Apostolicall Traditions from the Apostles And the Decrees of the Church hee tearmeth Ecclesiasticall Traditions which are likewise of equall authoritie with the Scriptures Protestant 11 This is a common fault with you to vse this point of Sophistrie called by the Logicians Petitio principij for you wil stil take it for graunted that you are the Church though you neuer prooue it And this is a necessary consequence That if the trueth be doubted of the church must néedes bee much more doubted of because the Church is the number of men professing the trueth And how can the professors of the trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question Therefore the supposing your selues to be the church when your faith Religion should be tried is fond vain But if S. Paul in that place by Deliuered Tradition meane nothing but the doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in Scripture too then must you graunt that you are deceiued to thinke that vnwritten Traditions are approued by S. Pauls Traditions Now what the things were which S. Paul deliuered by word to the Thessalonians is shewed in the 17 of the Acts saying Now as they passed thorow Amphipolis and Apolonia they came to Thessalonica where was a Synagogue of the Iewes and Paul as his maner was entred in vnto them and thrée Sabbath dayes hee discoursed vnto them out of the Scriptures opening and alleaging That Christ must haue suffered and risen againe c. In which wordes it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence From whence Out of the Scriptures What That it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe Besides Saint Paul witnesseth both to small and great that hee said no other thing than that which the Prophets and Moyses did say should come Act. 26 22 The Traditions therefore that Paul doth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the Tradition of the Gospel as Saint Ambrose writing vpon the same place calleth it very well which the reason also doth prooue that Saint Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather saying God hath raised you to saluation by our Gospel therefore stand ye fast and holde the Traditions which ye haue learned whether it be by word or by Epistle Now I hope there is none so impudent to denie that the Gospel is written But here another difficultie incounters vs If it were granted by the Churches interpretation that there were doctrines or Traditions Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall deliuered by word of mouth vpon what sure grounds might wee be assured which be the Traditions that were so deliuered by Christ his Apostles or the Church Papist The ancient Fathers chiefe Papists doe plainely teach that many points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs as halowing the Font the blessing of the oyle the anointing the Baptized Exorcismes Fastes Festiuities prayer for the dead prayer to Saints worshipping of Images the oblation of the Sacrifice their Annealing their Primacie of Rome their fiue pretended Sacraments the merit of workes their satisfactions the numbring their sinnes to the Priest their Real presence their halfe CommunioÌ„ c. See the preface for Priests and See Master Middletons booke called Papisto-Mastix Sect. 5. almost all these things which you defend against vs are proued by the Fathers to be deliuered by Tradition Protestant 12 This sheweth euidently that you are guilty of the same fault that the Pharises were Mark 7.9 by Christs owne reproofe saying You cast aside the commaundements of God to maintaine your owne Traditions Mat 15.9 teaching for doctrine
in â—nesis q. 162. Iacob by faith worshipped God vpon the end of his staffe But they traÌ„slate Iacob adored the top of his Rod to countenance their Idolatrie â—n confes Aug. i. 2. c. 8. Tit. 5. Torrensis the Iesuite in the diuision of the coÌ„mandements saith that 3 of them concerne our duty towards God and 7 towards men This doctrine is imbraced by the Papists vpon Austin and Clements authority contrary to al these Fathers folowing whose iudgements they may truely be said to reiect in preferring two before so many As first by the Hebrewes as Li. de decal 〈◊〉 duob opusc â—le legib speciâ— lib. Philo Antiquit. â—ude li. 3. ca. 4. Iosephus In Exod. 20. Aben Ezra next by the Grecians In versib de â—ecalog Gregory Nazianzen In Exod. â—o 8. Origen In Synop. â—et Scriptur Athanasius and In Mat. oper â—mperf Ho. 49. Chrysostome Lastly by the Latines In Epist ad â—ph cap. 6. S. Ambrose In â—pist ad â—phes ca. 6. S. Hierome And one yet ancienter than they both Aug. q. vet Nou. Test â—p 7. The Author of the questions of the Old and New Testament who all affirme that foure Commandements concerne our duety towards God and sixe towards men Epiphanius is reiected by D. Hardin Iewel pagâ— 548. for breaking of Images Cyprian is condemned by Dureus because he teacheth that onely Christ is to be heard Their reiection of the Fathers is so commonly knowen to all that reade Controuersies See their Iâ—dex expurgatorius as is euident by the infinite testimonies alleaged by vs out of the Fathers against the Papists that I shall not néede to insist of more particularities in which few may yet be obserued that they reiect the greater number which they tearme the Churches exposition when they make against them Stapleton and Hart. The fourth Exception is that there are many counterfeits bearing the name of Fathers which are likewise often alleaged by the Papists to abuse vs with their names For proofe wherof there be nine volumes of S. Hieroms workes whereof 3 are none of his and yet vitae Patrum a Legend how wrongfully fathered on him CoÌ„ment in epi 2. ad Tâ— mo ca. 4. lâ— cor Theolâ— li. 11. ca. 6. your Espencaeus and Canus both shew As also a barbarous and sottish fable of the natiuity of S. Mary as Canus calleth it Likewise of ten volumes of S. Austins there is not aboue one or two that hath not more or fewer of such Pamphlets patched to it both by the censure of Erasmus Censura theologoruÌ„ Louanienâ—um in AppeÌ„di c Tomâ— secundi ceteroâ—um August and the Diuines of Louain who shew that sundry things beare Saint Austines name whereof some are vnlearned some lewd and hereticall Sixtus â—eneâ—s de â—â—lcâ— librotum inscrip Stapl prinâ— doctr li. â— cap. 14. Sixtus Senensis whom D. Stapleton doeth commend hath proued that books are fathered falsely not onely vpon Augustine and Hierome but also vpon Ambrose Cyprian Athanasius Eusebius Emisenus Iunilius Cyril Eucherius Arnobius and Thomas of Aquine And with this discourse hee closeth vp the former volume of his holy Librarie In which he hath shewed Bibliotheca Sanctâ— lib. 2. 4. that Clemens Abdius Origen Chrysostome Hipolitus and many mo haue had their names defaced with the same iniurie I will omit diuers others for breuity and although this may séeme no iust Exception against the Fathers yet it ought to make vs cautious how we trust them to be the true Fathers and not counterfeits the rather for that the Papists haue often alleaged such counterfeit Fathers to credit their doctrine with For proofe whereof Torrensis the Iesuite citeth such bookes for S. Augustines as are knowen and granted to bee none of his â—n confess â—ng li. â— ca. â— Tit. 2 c. assiâ— as namely The Sermon of Saint Peters chaire and other pretie Pamphlets of the same litter And although in the preface of his confessions to the Reader he makes an exception yet our of that exception he saith that although they doe not auaile much to conuince the opinion of Sectaries Neuerthelesse there will be godly men and learned who will permit and iudge them to be Saint Augustines owne and will both take delight and profit by trading them And yet amongst theâ—e bookes there is one that teacheth contrary to Saint Augustine as namely The booke of visiting the sicke wherein the Bastard Austin alloweth the worship of images for good De visitat Infirmor li 2. ca. 1. De moribuâ— Ecclesiae ca. 3â— which â—he true Austin doth note as an abuse and saith the Church misliketh it And yet this booke alleaged by the Iesuite for worshipping of iâ—ages is set as a flower in his Austins conâ—â—tions though it be iudged a bastard Austin by the Diuines of Louain Censura Louaniensium Non est August princ doctr li. â— cap. 15. Arnob. com in psal â—â— Hier. de Scriptoriâ— eccle Biblio sanct li. 4. Histor Tâ—ip li. 5. c. 5. Coment in â—sal 105. D. Stapleton alleageth Arnobius vpon the Psalmes to prooue that who goeth out of Peters church shall perish and that this is a counterfeit Father Saint Hierome and Sixtus Senensis dot shew for that the most ancient Arnobius was elder than that he might heare of the heresie of Photinus whereas this Arnobius that writeth on the Psalmes doeth mention Photinus and wrote by name against his Heresie S. Basil is often alleaged by the Papists in many of their bookes Basil de Spir. sanct ca. 27. for Traditions not written These words are vrged as his Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church wee haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receiued by Tradition from the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret whereof either haue like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the Church for if we go about to reiect those customs which are not written as of no moment before we beware we shal condemne those things which are in the Gospel necessary to saluatioÌ„ yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing else hath béen receiued without scriptures Ibid. ca. 29. neither let this be receiued But if wee haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this among those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to TraditioÌ„s not written Now this booke is prooued a counterfeit by the reasons following First though it hath Saint Basils name to it Epist Eras dedicat ad Episc Culmens praefiâ—â— ca. 17. yet the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirit nor age which Erasmus confessed when he translated the booke Besides this place of Basils directly contradicts the two places afore mentioned of of S. Basil
sée it the Sepulchâ—e opened for his sake and the body assumpteâ— into heauen he saith not one word of these conceits Nay he rather saith against them for he noteth namely That Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefest and ancientest top of the Apostles And it is not likely he would haue noted two if they had beene all present here is no lesse than seuen lies in lesse than sixe liues Now let vs sée how Damascen your Portesse agréeth For DamasceÌ„ saith The Angels sung almost thrée dayes The Portesse thrée whole dayes Damascen saith The rest of the Apostles would shew to one of them who was absent the bodie The Portesse saith Thomas who was absent would worship the bodie Now what thée Damascen was let your owne doctors tell you who except against him for his tale of Gregory the Pope â—anus locoâ—m Theol 〈◊〉 11. â— Hessels â—nsure de â—stor sanct â— 3. â—erm de funct in 〈◊〉 and Traiane the Emperour Thus Damascen reporteth That Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voice from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see thou pray no more to me for the wicked These be good places to prooue prayer for the dead and yet it is against popish doctrine that prayer can deliuer any out of hell And if he had béen in Purgatory the Pope could haue dispatched that of himselfe without praying The next is Athan in Euang. de deipara who speaks not one word of your miraculous fault And yet is the same Athanasius reiected for a bastard in your owne edition In edit Petr. Nannij Louan praefat ad episcop Atiebat The last is fiue sermons of S. Barnards in all which likewise there is not one worde of that miracle So that vnlesse they were disposed to lie for the whetstone it is to be wondred how they dare thus abuse their Readers both with the names of counterfeit Fathers and false forgeries If I should collect all such like stuffe it would growe greater than this smal Tract But let the Christian Reader iudge of the rest as hee prooues these to be truly brought against them And if any desire further proofe of the Rhemists sincerity in alleaging Fathers let him obserue these places viz. The constitutions of Clement Luk. 4. Sect. 1. Ignatius Matt. 4. Sect. 2. 1. Peter 2. Sect. 6 Dionysius Areopag Act. 8. Sect. 6. Hypolitus Mat. 24. Sect. 5. Policarpus Act. 6. Sect. 1. Miltiadi Fabian Act. 8. Sect. 6. S. Andrew S. Martiall Hebr. 10. Sect. 11. The Masses of S. Iames Basil and Chrysostome 1. Cor. 11. Sect. 10. Clicton for Ciuil Ioh. 11. Sect. 1. and Paulinus Ioh. 9. Sect. 2. All these are counterfeit Fathers and vrged by the Papists vnder the names of true Fathers to countenance their corrupt doctrine And therefore no maruell if popish leaders instruct their followers to get vs into the plaine field of their Motiues out of our weake and false castell of onely Scripture as Bristowe the Licentiate tearmeth it Brist Motiu 48. And it is no maruell that they haue such store of the Fathers and that our new masters as they tearme vs cannot compare with these Fathers in the doctrines they deliuer when they bring vs onely the names of fathers I could giue instance likewise how the Fathers are often contrary one to another yea contrary to themselues Thus I hope it is plainly prooued by these foure iust exceptions that the Fathers iudgements are no infallible rule for a man to build his faith on though it be imbellisht with the churches exposition And yet wee reuerence and honor them as men that haue brought great light to the vnderstanding of the Scriptures But what doâ— you vnderstand by intituling the ancient Fathers with the name of the church Papist I meane Harâ—â—g Rai that the ioint consent of the Fathers in all doctrines deliuered by them is the doctrine of the Church Protestant 15 What doe you meane by the ioint consent of the Fathers Papist I mean by the ioint consent of the Fathers that which all or the most part of them doe deliuer for trueth wherin if there be any difference the greater number is to be followed for a fewe may bee deceiued more easily than many Protestant 16 This rule séemes to be very vncertaine for you knowe that king Ahab was deceiued by the consent of false prophets 2. Chron. 1â— 5 11. euen 400. against Micaiah yea when the Fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decrée that Bishops Priests DeacoÌ„s should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone Sozom. li. 1. cap. 2â— rose vp in the midst of their Councell and fréely contradicted it and preuailed Besides in the third Exception before it is plainely shewed that the greater number of Fathers are by your selues reiected in the diuision of the coÌ„mandements and in the controuersie betwéene S. Austine and Hierom touching Peters reproofe par 1. wherein your selues grant Torrensis confes Aug. lib. 2. cap. 1. tim â— that Austin iudged more soundly What is therefore then to be done that a certaine and sure ground may bee found out Papist Then a better and more sure way is that which by the faithfull Pastors of the Church is decreed in a generall Councell which cannot erre Protestant 17 Indéed I must confesse it is a sure way to build our faith vpon those Councels which cannot erre But how shal we be assured that they cannot erre Papist We are assured by the Scriptures That the Church cannot erre as is euident by these places following Mat. 18.20 Our Sauiour Christ saith That when two or three are gathered together in his name that he will be in the midst And Ioh. 16 13. he promiseth to send vnto his Church the holy Ghost which shall leade them into all trueth 1. Tim. 3. And S. Paul calles it the Pillar and ground of trueth Vpon which places and many other which for breuity I omit wee conclude that the Church cannot erre which to speake as the Schoolemen doe we call the Church representatiue because the whole Church is there represented in a gerall Councell Protestant 18 Take héede what you doe Will you bring the Church contrary to the iudgement of many learned Papists mentioned in the preface of this booke to take her authority from the Scriptures and to be tried by them whether it may erre If you doe it will be the vtter ruine and destruction of your Religion for the Scriptures will conuince the Councel of Constance of error in taking away the cup from the Laitie contrary to S. Pauls expresse commandement saying 1. Cor. 11. Let a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this bread and drinke of this cup. And contrary to the Institution and commaundement of Christ himselfe saying Drinke you all of this Mat. 26.27
and wordes in it That b Ca. 35. the ende whereto c Ca. 37. the matter whereof it is all written bee marked in generall d Ca. 35. 40. and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter e Li. 2. ca. 8 that all bee read ouer and ouer f Ca. 9. and those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainely both precepts of life and rules of beleefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainely written in it That obscure and darke speaches be lightened and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleare certain be followed that g Ca. 11. recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrew copies to cleare out of the fountains if the translation be muddy that h Li. 3. ca. 2 3. doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the Scripture that i Ca. 1. all the circuÌ„stances of the text be weighed what goeth before what coÌ„meth after the maner how k Ca. 10. the cause why l Ca. 17. the men to whom m Ca. 18. the time when euery thing is said to be short that n Ca. 27. we seeke to know stil the will meaning of the Author by whoÌ„ the holy Ghost hath spokeÌ„ if we find it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some othe place of scripture o C. 18. If a sense be giueÌ„ the vncertainty wherof cannot be discussed by certain sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custom is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borrowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt coÌ„trouersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be fouÌ„d vsed thence whersoeuer that so to conclude p Li. 4. ca. 3 all places of the scriptures be expounded by the Scriptures the which are canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines faith All which rules we confidently imbrace And we constantly affirme that neither he nor any other auncient Father did euer attribute the expounding of the Scripture for the true sense therof to any Pope or bishop whatsoeuer And although D. Stapl. except against these Rules of S. Austin which is common to all Papists by special priuiledge when the Fathers make against them as I haue already partly proued and shal appeare to any that for a clearer manifestatioÌ„ therof wil take a view of their Index expurgator yet doth S. Austin iustifie himself De doctr Christia li 1 a Prolo saying If they who know these precepts cannot see the things which are obscure darke in the scriptures of God the fault is in themselues not in the precepts as if I should point with my finger at a starre which they would gladly see and their eye-sight were so weake that although they could see my finger yet could they not see the starre at which I point Let them saith he cease to blame mee and let them pray to God that hee will giue them eye-sight And to the ende I may giue some proofe of euery thing I affirme and to giue a taste of the vile practise of the Papists It shall not be amisse to set downe their owne words namely the iudgement of the Vniuersitie of Doway approued by the Censors of the Councel of Trent concerning the booke of Bertram according to the Decree of the Councel the Title Vt liber Bertram c. How the booke of Bertram Index expurg 8. pag. â—1 Priest of the Bodie and Blood of our Lord being amended may beÌ„ tolerated Although wee make no great account of this booke therfore we would not greatly care if either it were no where extant or vtterly lost yet seeing it hath been already ofteÌ„times reprinted hath been read of most men and being prohibited by name hath been made knowen to all men seeing also the heretikes do know of the prohibition thereof by diuers Catalogues and that he was a Catholike Priest and a Monke of the Abbey of Corbey and was welbeloued and reuerenced not so much of Carolus Magnus as of Carolus Caluus and doth helpe the story of that age And seeing that in other ancient Catholike writers wee beare very many errors and extenuate them excuse them and very often times by deuising some pretie shift we denie them Excogitato Commento and do faine some commodious sense vnto them when they are opposed aginst vs in disputation or in conflicts with the aduersaries wee do not see why Bertram doeth not deserue the same equity and diligent Recognition lest the Heretikes should Iangle against vs that wee burne vp and prohibite Antiquitie which maketh for them and therfore it is no maruel that so few things seeme to make for them when wee Catholikes do so vnreuerently hisse out and destroy antiquitie which but in shewe dissenteth from vs. Moreouer we feare least this booke not onely by Heretikes but also by vnruly Catholikes by meanes of the prohibition thereof may be read more greedily alleaged more odiously and doe more hurt being inhibited than if it were permitted And vpon these considerations they take order and shew how this booke at the next printing shall be falsified by adding putting out changing of the Wordes and Sentences and by peruerting the whole scope and meaning of the Author The last part of the obiection is that there must bee some Tribunall on earth to iudge which is trueth And in this Question they réele sometime to the Church and sometime to the Pope who they will haue to bee Iudge of trueth and that the Church which sometime they intitle to the Pope and sometime to Generall Councels are to be iudge of the Scriptures To this I answere That absolute Iudge of trueth can no man be for God is truth of God I trust no man may be Iudge The Sonne of God saith of himselfe Iohn 14. 1. Iohn 5. I am truth and S. Iohn testifieth The spirit is truth Therefore ye can be no Iudges of trueth vnles you will be Iudges of God And the Father hath committed all iudgement to the Sonne and my iudgment Iohn 5. 8. saith Christ is Iust Christ saith My sheep heare my voice They be no iudges of his voice which is the Scriptures A Iudge of the Law is no obseruer of the Law as S. Iames insinuateth since the whole Church is bound to obey the Law of God Iam. ca. 4. they be no iudges of the law S. Austin saith It is inferiour to vs Aug. in Psa Idem de vera religio ca. 31. whatsoeuer we be Iudges of And again The eternall Law of God therefore it is lawful
euen by the learned Papists themselues and their Vniuersities yet doe they alleage them against vs in many of their bookes especially in the Rhemes Testament to giue countenance to Popish errors See pag. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. 10 That the consent of the Fathers cannot be shewed nay scarce any ancient Father that all controuersies are to bee determined by the Pope or that hee cannot erre or that hee must summon Councels or that they are of no authoritie vnlesse they bee confirmed by the Pope And yet are these doctrines held Catholike by the Papists and reputed the chiefe pillars of Popery See pag. 75. 11 That al those places of Scripture which are brought by the Papists either to prooue the Popes prerogatiue or the authority of the Church or that the Church cannot erre are by the Fathers writing purposely vpon the same places expounded according to the Protestants sense giuen and contrary to the sense which the Papists giue So farre are the Papists from proouing the generall consent of the Fathers in expounding these Scriptures which they commonly obiect against vs as Thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it Or the promises of the holy Ghost to be sent to the Church to leade it into all trueth Or To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of Heauen Or The Church is the pillar and ground of Trueth Or Tell the Church Or if hee heare not the Church let him be to thee as an heathen or as a Publicane Or whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bound in heauen Or any other place of Scripture to the sayd purposes to bee on their side as namely that those Texts should be meant of the Pope Generall Councell or the Church of Rome See pag. 66. 67. 68. 69. 70. 12 That Generall Councels haue erred haue beene contrary one to another haue been reiected by the Papists themselues and so are no sure Rule to build our faith on See pag. 48. 49. 50. 51. 52. 53. 54. 55. 13 That the Popes whom they would haue to be supreame Iudges in al Controuersies haue erred iudicially haue been heretikes as maintaining the heresie of the Monothelites subscribing to the Arrian heresie to the Nestorian heresie haue offered sacrifice to idoles haue been Necromancers and Coniurers See pag. 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 14 That the Pope can be no competent Iudge and whereunto the Fathers referre vs. See pag. 93 c. LEt me request thee Courteous reader to take noâ—ice that the Texts of Scripture and testimonies of the Fathers cited by me in this Treatise should all haue been set downe in a different letter from the rest of the matter wherewith they are ranked accordingly as you see performed in the Preface and in the later halfe of the booke Now by meanes of my absence and want of direction giuen in this point it could not be discerned by the Printer howe farre the wordes of the Text and Testimonies so to bee distinguished might reach And therefore I cannot but free him from that blame as likewise 2. or 3. literal escapes only excepted from imputation of any the faults hereunder specified some of them being committed in my Copie and the rest through difficulty and darknes of the hand might easily be mistaken In the Text. Page 5. line 7. for allured reade allowed pag. 8. l. 17. Trations Traditions p. 11 l. 19. Priests proofe p. 29. l. â—6 addeth alleageth p. 29. l. 17. tehimony testimony p. 31. l. 2. for 25 15. p. 33. l. 7. fault fable p. 40. l. 9. châ—ice chiefe p. 72. l. 8. cannot which cannot p. 89. l. 1. sense the sense In the Margent Pag. 7. for De Bapt. c. 6. li. 1. reade De Bapt. cont Don. li. 3. pag. 7. prat reade pont pag. 8. 1. Thes 2. Thes pag. 12. 1. Pet. 2.18 1. Pet. 1.18 pag. 20. Aug. in Frut Aug. in Enar. pag. 14. de fulta de falsa pag. 35. li. 1. cap. 22. li 1. cap 23. pag. 36. Tim. Tit. pag. 52. Epist 16 7. Epist 167. pag. 59. against Pope Coelestine C. laudab de conuers Infidel is omitted