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A91875 Certain briefe observations and antiquæries: on Master Prin's Twelve questions about church-government. Wherein is modestly showne, how un-usefull and frivolous they are, how bitter and unchristian in censuring that way; whereas there are no reasons brought to contradict it. By a well-willer to the truth, and Master Prin. Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664? 1644 (1644) Wing R1667; Thomason E10_33; ESTC R18171 10,126 16

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no wayes to seeke an exemption from it under paine of being guilty of arrogancy c. The Scriptures in the margent I wonder to what end Master Prin quotes them so little to purpose looke on that place 1 Cor. 14. 32. The spirit of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets how full to the thing let all judge who know the scope of that place by the Prophets there doth he mean the civill State or the Synod or both And is not that spoken to a particular congregation for the regulating the exercise of prophesying or doth he meane by being subject that the Prophets have an authoritative power over the other Prophets I know not what he means by that place The other places Rom. 13. 1 2. of submitting to every ordinance c. If that be true then every man is bound to put out his owne eyes to yeeld to blind obedience never to search into the truth for if he search and find it contrary to the Word he must follow his judgement and to follow his judgement is to be a Schismatick to be guilty of arrogancy c. to contradict the Word to oppose an ordinance of God so that a man must inevitably sin take either part Is not this to uphold the Papist tenent of beleeving as the Church beleeveth c. I put it to Master Prin if the Parliament and Synod should set up an Episcopall government which he thinkes is Antichristian whether he would not speak a word against it Is not this a base bondage jurare in verba alterius to give up a mans faith and conscience to mens direction but if the former be true then this second must follow if no rule then you must obey what is commanded you Suppose that is commanded may prove untrue what if that way be not right if that Synod and State should erre what would you thinke of it then c. Secondly I humbly demand of Master Prin whether he and the other two holy men were not justly stigmatised and censured for speaking against the Bishops and Ceremonies c. which were stablished by so many Synods and Acts of Parliament and how h● can excuse himselfe from pride and arrogancy in such a course for by his owne rule he should have actually obeyed and not spake a word to the contrary Such divinity will overthrow all the power of Scripture over mens consciences only make that to bind which a Synod thinks good The third Quaerie contradicts the first in the first hee askes In this Quaerie hee quotes a saying in a Booke called The bloudy Tenent which was written by one as contrary to this as the Independents as he is to the Presbyterians and they utterly disavow the Booke whether there be any rule in the Word here he askes whether that government which hath sufficient if not most warrant in the new Testament is not to be chosen In this he cryes up the one government which he instanceth in the fourth Quaerie to be presbyteriall as tending to establish Christian unity peace c. that which serves most effectually to prevent Heresies Schismes c. Here is a bare affirmation and the independents No is as good as your I. Its desired Master Prin would prove what hee sayes that independent government hath not such expresse warrant from the Word another contradiction as presbyteriall prove that and you shall be Magnus Apollo as for the Scriptures you bring will little help you For the fifth it s answered by way of concession that it will overthrow all nationall Churches as not conceiving any such warrant in the Word but for any forme of civill government it will stand better with them then Presbytery can the mischiefes of Presbytery are vailed with Orthodoxnesse and preventing Schismes c But if the Saints would pry into the formality tyranny inslaving mens judgements and consciences the Presbyteriall way c. they would looke upon it as that which is most inconsistent with their spirituall liberty and with State priviledges It s politickly done of you to put the best termes on your owne way how will you have it take else I will let passe your bitter expressions that one man would be if possible a independent Church and republicke subject to no lawes I thought such language would not suit with you spirrit Master Prin especially that you would not speake so of them who were your best frinds in your sufferings which stood to you and refreshed you when most of your presbiterians Episcopall enough then were shye of you I could name the men that used you kindly whom you now implicitly reproach the independents giue more to civell power then your presbyterians doe I would faine know whether your presbyterians doe not hold that an Act of a Synod or a Nationall Assembly is as valid and binding in Ecclesiasticks as an Act of Parliament in civills and whether the Parliament can de jure contradict their proceedings whether they will affirme that the Parliament hath any jurisdiction over them in settling Ecclesiasticall matters this is not a Quaerie without ground for as far as the independents understand of the presbyteriall government in Scotland it s absolutely independent from the Parliament in respect of decreeing and inacting matters of government only this honor presbyterians give to their Magistrate they must be the executioners of their Iudgements to hang whom they condemne The summe of the sixth Quaerie is whether since the first preaching the Gospell beleevers multiplying they did not gather into Churches which had dependencie on and was subordinate to Nationall Synods c. And if not to show the place where and to name any eminent Author that ever maintained the contrary This Quaerie is very bold and daring yet I answer that beleevers did as soone as they were converted gather into particular Churches as is apparent but that they were subordinate unto Nationall Synods c. sub judice lis est And if in many Kingdomes it might be so de facto yet whether de jure and from a patterne in the Word that we desire may be proved Suppose this should be true that there cannot in any Kingdom such a Church be showne for many yeares or at least no Writer expresseth it if so be it can be made forth from the Word and consonant to the Saints practise in the Apostles times I know no such Schisme in dissenting from all mens practises to follow the cleare truth You challenge all to show you one eminent Writer who maintained the same I will not go so far back into antiquity as to bring you out a catalogue of Fathers who though they had not a cleare light in that way yet had many shrowd hints and notions in many things which are practised by these you call independent There be many latter Writers as eminent in holinesse and without disparagement in learning to many whom you can produce for the other as learned Doct. Ames in Medul theolog de eccles