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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93655	The opening of Master Prynnes new book, called A vindication: or, light breaking out from a cloud of differences, or late controversies. Wherein are inferences upon the Vindication, and antiqueres to the queres; and by that, the way a little cleared to a further discovery of truth in a church-order, by a conference or discourse. / By John Saltmarsh, preacher at Brasteed in Kent. Published according to order.	Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647.	1645 (1645)	Wing S493; Thomason E305_22; ESTC R200328	25,183	50

Of the Vindication of the four Questions P. What of that C. Some of the learned for the Presbyteriall way are divided about setling and know not how to settle the great Ordinance of the Lords Supper upon the Kingdom or Nation P. How Any of our judgement divided I will not beleeve that Surely they are not like your Independent Brethren to crumble into divisions and severall opinions C. Look you now how you are mistaken I tell you again The Vindication-Book whose Author is as famous and able as your way affords hath writ a large Tractate for mixt Communions or Sacraments against some of that way that are against them P. Beleeve me if it be so I shall be at a stand I thought all of our side that had been for Presbytery had been all of a minde and none had broken out into Factions but they of the other side C. I love not this word Faction on any side yet till we see more I would not misinterpret any willingly You shall hear the reasons on both sides gathered up very narrowly without the passion for I would neither have passion to object nor to confute any thing but meerly Scripture and Reason P. I pray you what are the differences C. A reverend Brother of the Presbyteriall way answers certain Questions of anothers of that way which he it seems had propounded to the State to be considered on in the setling of things over the Kingdom and some others too in certain Printed Treatises have gone about to confute them so as his Questions which as he professes openly were writ onely for the advancement of Reformation were interpreted by those of the same way with him as an enemy of Reformation as an adversary and an obstruction to the work of Reformation and settlement of Church-Discipline as he saith P. O strange one of them thus censured by their own and by those whose advancement he hath sought so much in opposing himself against the new wayes of Independency and Separation as he calls them But well how differ they C. He holds in his Book of Vindication divers particulars concerning Church-Discipline and censures and the Administration of the Lords Supper wherein the other Brethren of the Presbyteriall-way differ from him As first He holds there is no precept nor president in Scripture for the suspending of any Member of a Congregation from the Lords Supper who is not at the same time excommunicated from the Church and all other Ordinances as well some of the other hold the contrary or mistake as he saith 2. That Matth. 18. 16 17. If thy Brother trespasse c. is not meant of the Church nor of excommunication nor suspension from the Sacrament which the other hold 3. That 1 Cor. 5. 5. to deliver such a one to Satan is not meant of suspension or excommunication from the Sacrament which the other hold 4. That 1 Cor. 5. 11. with such a one no not to eat is not meant of spiritual eating which the other hold 5. That Numb. 9. 1 10 11. is not meant of excluding any by way of Type from the Sacrament in acts of suspension but of totall putting out from all Ordinances for legall uncleannesses not spiritual 6. That Judas received the Supper or Sacrament as well as the other Apostles and that the Sop that was given him before he went out was after the Bread was distributed which some of the other deny 7. That the Minister hath fully discharged himself if he give warning to unworthy Communicants of the danger and then give it which the other hold not 8. That Ministers may as well refuse to Preach the Word to such unexcommunicated grosse impenitents for fear of partaking in their sin as to administer the Sacrament to them and they hear damnation in the one as well as eat damnation in the other That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is as well a converting Ordinance as any other being reckoned amongst the Means of Grace and so to be administred to any unexcommunicated Member of a Congregation which some of the other deny That they put groundlesse differences betwixt Preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments 9. That the putting out of the Synagogue in John 9. 21 34 35. is no good proof of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament 10. That the Authors Scriptures quoted in his fourth Question are not rightly applyed as his opposites say P. And are these the differences fully C. Yea excepting the Proofs on both sides for which I refer you to the Books themselves which all together are large P. But how conclude they C. The Author of the Vindication doth fairly shew them that they contend for what he doth grant them with advantage and yet they quarrel with him for denying it as he saith P. Methinks these are strange mistakes one of another and amongst these of our Presbyteriall side too C. And he hopes the Parliament will consider and take care that the Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing P. But how will some of our Ministers take this C. I know not that but I like him well in this but he goes upon one ground more then all the rest P. What is that C. That the very ground upon which divers of the more moderate and tender in the Presbyteriall way go is the the ground of all the growing and spreading of Schism and Separation Anabaptism and other Errours tending to them which yet they beleeve they so much preach against a strange mistake with them as he observes P. If it be so how pitifully are those Ministers mistaken in their own grounds and the best of them too to be so mistaken is the more to be wondered for I count the tenderest of them the best but this is yet a secret to me C. Yea and to them it may seem so too but I shall unfold the mystery of this Vindication-Book if I mistake not the suspending scandalous persons from the Lords Supper and some other thoughts of pertaking in their sins is it seems deemed by this Book Some principles or positions of Separation which if fomented as the Author insinuates may in time subvert the other principles of Presbytery as indeed they may being something inconsistent and of a better and more spirituall nature and I am of his opinion for I would have all of a colour and constitution All light or all darknesse and beleeve it your principles of a purer way will not long incorporate with any other the Ark and Dagon will not stand together and the way to overthrow the inventions of men is by taking in some principles of the Truth into traditions what hath made the Popish Hierarchy go down Not its own principles of Idolatry Will-worship and Tyranny But when there were some takings in of Reformation-principles as when they would go from Popery to Prelacy Popery fell much

THE OPENING OF Master Prynnes new Book called A VINDICATION OR Light breaking out from a Cloud of Differences or late Controversies WHEREIN Are Inferences upon the Vindication and Antiqueres to the Queres and by that the way a little cleared to a further discovery of TRUTH in a CHURCH-ORDER by a Conference or Discourse By JOHN SALTMARSH Preacher at Brasteed in Kent Published according to Order London Printed for G. Calvert at the signe of the Black Spred-Eagle at the West-End of S. Pauls 1645. To the Honourable Phillip Skippon Major General of the Army raised for the King and Parliament under the Command of Sir Thomas Fairfax General Noble SIR SVpposing you may take the Book called the Vindication by Master Prynne into your hand I desire that this Discourse may be in your other hand as occasion serves If the Lord hath revealed any thing in this Discourse to enlighten the darknesse of this present Controversie it is onely from him who is the Father of Lights who carries on his to a more excellent way till we may with open face behold the Glory of Jesus Christ and be changed from glory to glory Sir The thing I onely contend for is that which the Gospel and Spirit calls for Whatsoever things are pure whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are of good report Sir The ingagement of private respects which are upon me towards you and being likewise a partaker of some labours of yours in the Lord which are abroad as that of Promises c. The best treasure we have in this life hath drawn this from me The Lord who hath wounded you binde you up and lead you on to the glorious Truths for if I mistake not our Controversie is but this in these times some would walk more close with Christ some can be content like Peter to walk at more distance and follow him afar off and to stand warming themselves with the multitude in the Common-Hall And let the Word judge betwixt us which is of best report Sir Yours in the things of Jesus Christ John Saltmarsh To the Reader SOme Scriptures in difference betwixt the Brethren I leave untouched I would not engrosse anothers Controversie to my self more then I needs must and the present Truth or Light I go by presseth me to do I enter not into this Controversie to make one of either side amongst the learned Antagonists but rather by opening their Difference to themselves and others to draw both them and all of their way whom the Lord will adde to a purer way both of Church and Order I have no Libraries beside me to put into my Margin neither dare I write in the authority of man but of God and not in the words too much which mans wisdom teacheth though I still have more of my self in what I do then I ought It is by way of Conference I have writ and I rather did it that I might the better personate divers to themselves that read it that they may learn to be more peaceable to Brethren of dissenting judgements while I hold them the Glasse If any of the Glory of Christ break out by this Let him have the glory who hath chosen the weak things of the World A DISCOURSE Betwixt two Friends P. C. C Well met I know you are for setling Church-Government and Sacraments P. I tell you we shall never be at any Peace till then till all be setled and the Kingdom rid of these Independents Anabaptists and Brownists C. Be not so hot will you call in your Neighbours to quench your house when it is on fire and when all is done give them a beating for their pains the Tribes did not thus with one another the Reubenites and the other would not rest in the Land which the Lord gave them till the Lord had given their Brethren rest as he had given them P. I tell you they are called a company of Hereticks and Schismaticks in every Book and Pamphlet that comes abroad I am sure men of understanding and learning and many an ancient Professor hath no better a name for them C. Yea I perceive so much but the railings and evil-speakings prevail not with me against any but their own Authors For the wisdom which is from above is first pure then peaceable and the Angels which are greater in power and might bring not railing accusation but the Lord rebuke thee even the Lord And for any Professors you speak on Who were so bitter against the Christians as your ancient and zealous Jews You know the Prophecy Your old men shall dream dreams and your young men shall see visions and the first shall be last and the last first P. What Would you have me speak well of these that so many speak against C. I would not wish you to speak well of any thing but what you are perswaded in from the Word but I would onely desire you not to speak ill though you speak not well the Apostle rebukes those that speak evil of the things they know not But I have many Reasons I shall now acquaint you with if you will but have patience and not upon a notion or name of Heresie and Schism shut up your Windows as against a new light Meteor or some Blazing-Star as too many do we are bidden try the spirits and prove all things Friend be not so discourteous to any notion that is a stranger it is besides the Apostles rule be not sayes he forgetfull to entertain strangers for some have entertained Angels unawares And this is one Reason further till more come we are but coming out of Babylon you and we were but the other day with the vail of Prelacy upon our hearts and we are but in healing like the blinde-man and because yet we see men like Trees shall we therefore judge them to be so and not stay till our eyes be opened that we see better P. Have you no better Reasons to convince me These I confesse are something and I will think on them C. Yea look with a single eye upon their principles and take them in their own single Positions not as the world Prints them or reports them this is much a wanting on these times you know what was said of the Christians to Paul As for this sect every where it is spoken against And I see no reason Why other opinions which have been held by some Author of one opinion should be all charged upon that one for his sake which neither in it self nor any just consequence from it can be proved of any right to belong unto it And if there be any Tares with the Wheat they are of the enemies sowing as Christ said to make us go by and not reap there where the Wheat is so scant and the Tares so many P. But O methinks if things were setled about the Church once C. Yea but how will you settle P. How As it is agreed on C. Agreed on What have you not heard of the new Book

Yet warrantably practised as if an unlawfull way of worship as all will-worship is might be lawfully practised which is contrary to these Scriptures Matth. 15. 3 9. Isai. 29. 13 14. Gal. 3. 15. John 10. 4 5. Matth. 6. 24. Tit. 1. 14. Revel. 14. 9 10. Vindication Fol. 38. That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper belongs of right to all visible knowing Members of the visible Church as well as the Sacrament of Baptism Inference Whence we may infer That in this his equalizing all Ordinances under this notion of knowing Members that either children are not capable of Baptism because not knowing Members and upon this ground of his wrongfully Baptized or if right Members yet deprived of the other Sacrament of the Supper to which as visible Members they have right as well as to the other there being no distinction of knowing and unknowing Members in his sense or else that they may partake in that Ordinance of Baptism and be signed or sealed and yet no right Members of a visible Church Vindication Fol. 38. That that of not casting Pearls before Swine in Matth. 7. 6 10 14. is expresly determined in 2 Pet. 2. 1 2 21 22. and Heb. 10 28 29. and 6. 4. to 9. to open Apostates not to scandalous sinners who duly repair to publish Ordinances and externally professe Reformation and Repentance and to apply this Text to these is a meer perverting of it Inference Whence we may infer That this cuts off the Brethren of the more purely-Presbyterial way fully from all their foundation-Texts of any more spiritual distribution of Holy Ordinances or any distinction in the distribution which they have so long while breathed after and rejoyced in the expectation of and their condition upon these principles are no better now in their so much desired-for-Reformation then it was under the Prelates and Common-Prayer Book which holds the door more close against sinners then the Vindication or they ought to do upon these his principles And secondly The full and finall determining a Scripture of this kinde or any other to one particular sense is not agreeable to that Spirit of wisdom and of God which is an infinitely abounding spirit and like the Sun is full of beams and continuall springings of light nor do the Interpretations of the Word appear all at once the same Scripture which many ages ago gave out one beam of light gave more in the ages after and more now as the eyes of our understanding are enlightned so as Scriptures are not to be bounded in our sense nor the elevations of spirit taken by the short rule of our spirits which is contrary to these Scriptures 2 Pet. 1. 20 21. 2 Cor. 5. 16. Phil. 3. 12 13 15 16. Ephes. 3. 18 19. 1 Cor. 2. 14 15. Vindication Fol. 41. If the Sacrament be onely a sealing or confirming Ordinance of true Grace when and where it is already begun then it were altogether impertinent and ineffectuall unto civil carnal Christians therefore doubtlesse it is and was intended by Christ for a converting Ordinance to all such as those Inference Whence we may infer That the Sacrament being a converting Ordinance may be given to all unregenerate persons in or out of the Church for if it be a converting Ordinance the consequence lies clear that no sinners of any sort kinde quality condition in or out of the Church ought to be denied it nay to have it administred as well without the Word as with it it being of equal power with the Word for converting as the Vindication saith and that who holds otherwise are mistaken And though there be a distinction premised of converting to the Faith or formall profession and a converting to a spiritual sincere Faith in Jesus Christ yet this distinction makes not any thing against the Sacrament to be given before the Word even for conversion to the first Faith or faith from Paganism which neither Scriptures nor practise of Christ or any Disciple of his from Apostles to the seventy and so down through any age to our own that ever I could read on practised and yet the principles laid down in Fol. 38. will infer such a consequence naturally and truly for the Vindication saith in Fol. 38. That the Word and all Ordinances are alike for conversion and if so the Sacraments may be used as well to convert from Paganism and administred singly by themselves as the Word by it self may be taught Secondly The Vindication saith That it is doublesse to be given to all for else it had been an impertinent and ineffectuall thing to administer to close Hypocrites that are carnall Christians Whence we may infer That because the Counsels of the Lord in all his Administrations do not clearly appear but through the Vindictions own suppositions and premises therefore he concludes fully That it were impertinent and ineffectual when as there appears no such end at all in the institution of it but rather two other ends One which himself layes down as occasional or evidential for the damnation and hardning some though I scarce allow him that that Ordinances of mercy and grace are properly active to condemnation The other which he never thinks on in his Book is this That God having left no infallible rule for discerning hath ordered it yet by a pure Gospel rule which if wicked men will come up to they hazard greater condemnation Further we may infer That things may be called impertinent and ineffectual which are instituted of the Lord when the reasons of the Lords institution appear not to us and that we may put our own suppositions and ends upon any administration in the Word when his ends are not clear to us nay and conclude against any other end then that of our own conjecture or supposed probable reason which I am confident is too too grosse to be in the learned Author Intentionally though not consequentially in his Vindication But the ends which I clearly gather from the Analogy of things in Gods dispensation are these Why the Sacrament though according to the institution delivered to Hypocrites yet is no converting Ordinance God having left no infallible Rule of discerning his but onely a Rule for outward evidences the Ordinances must either be administred to all walking according to the Rule of outward evidences or to none and according to that Rule Hypocrites may come in and do yet that is no sin to the Administrator nor Communicants so long as Administrations be ordered according to that Rule and Gods End of his revealed Will shewed Secondly The work of sifting and reaping of dividing betwixt the Trees and the Wheat the Sheep and the Goats is the work of the great day of the Son of man and therefore though Ordinances be administred here to Hypocrites yet at the time of the finall discerning the communicating of Hypocrites shall be visited in judgement and greater condemnation upon them So as there is no need of framing it into any notion of a

experiences are these I question the truth of all such conversion who have onely such experience as this because that such experience crosses the word and way of the Spirit and those are no right experiences which are not Scripture-experiences But some had not been converted if debarred from it This is a strange assertion against that of the Word The spirit bloweth where and when it listeth and some are called at one hour of the day some at another and how is it clear that the Sacrament converted such or not some other act of the Word at that time or about it Shew me that Christian among so many that can evidence his act of conversion meerly barely singly immediately from the act of communicating and then there is something proved to justifie an experience of conversion at such a time but still not to justifie the Sacrament an Ordinance Conversion and so to be used Vindication fol. 46. Is any Master or Parent so unnatural and sottish to deny his children or servant wholesom meat to feed their bodies And shall any Minister be so irrational or inconsiderate in denying the spiritual food Inference Whence we may infer That the Vindication takes all unconverted persons by this comparison to be alive and spiritually quickned or else it were as he says unnatural sottish irrational to give them food And if they be unconverted as he pleads for then who is so unnatural sottish irrational or inconsiderate as to give them any Men onely hold forth food to the living and not to the dead Vindication fol. 46. Physitians had an errour to deny drink to men in Feavers which murdred Thousands but now they see this deadly mistake and correct it So let not this errour creep into Divinity and Divines in denying the cup to such Feaverish Christians burning in the flames of sin and lust Inference Whence we may infer That there is in the unconverted a spiritual Feaverish thirst after Christ as there is in the sick after drink But oh Doth the same fountain send forth sweet and bitter waters Are there any such spiritually-feaverish desires in souls meerly carnal and unregenerate Can the burning in the flames of sin and lust breath any such heavenly longings Can there be any desires but sinful desires after Christ Can any but a soul like Davids pant after the water-brooks Are the flames of sin and lust like that heavenly fire in the bosom which the Prophet speaks on Do the hearts of any burn within them but when Christ is in their company and when spiritually enflamed by him Are the kindlings of sin like the kindlings upon the Altar Is the fire in the kitchin like the fire in the Temple Are the burnings of hell like the burnings of heaven If not Why are we told of men burning in the flames of sin and lust after Christ The Doctrine is not more unwarrantable then the expression is uncomely Vindication fol. 47. A Peradventure we may receive or do good by such a particular Ordinance or action is a sufficient encouragement for us to adventure on it in other cases let it be also warrantable in such cases where they have at least a probability a possibility a peradventure it may be and a Who knoweth but it may convert Inference Whence we may infer That the sum of all the former Arguments now summed up you see will reach no higher then to a Peradventure or to a may be And whether these be such Scripture-grounds or assurances for administrations of the Ordinances of God I appeal to all the world of believers who knows that May bees and Peradventures are not to be allowed any place in the practical obedience of Christians but clear demonstrative solid and certain Maximes or Principles for Whatsoever is not of faith is sin and He that doubteth is damned and Happie is he that condemneth not himself in what he doth And who knnws not that what is done upon May bees and Peradventures cannot be done of faith nor perswasion Vindication fol. 51. That the Presbytery or Classis may order a Suspension from the Sacrament or any other Ordinances provided that this power be claimed by no Divine Right but by Parliamenry Authority and Humane Institution Inference Whereby we may infer That what is not to be warranted in the Word yet if Humane Authority will undertake it it shall not be excepted against by the Vindication But where is there that Authority that will adventure so far to make up any thing in spiritual Administrations that there is no Spiritual nor Scripture-warrant for I am sorry to see the Vindication set the Parliamentary Authority so neer to Humane Invention of whom we are perswaded better things then to take the Patronage of any such thing which is not warrantable by the Word but rather to suspend all then to settle any thing so close to the highest Administrations in the Word which is of meer Humane Invention Nay I will prove this to be the very Maxime and practice of that honourable Senate who have therefore rooted out Episcopacy professed to the most high God in a Covenant against all Will-worship and Traditions of men and therefore let us not roll such a golden ball before Authority to put them out of their way after Christ who have followed him so close hitherto both in their searchings in the Word and in their tendernesse of persecution lest they might scourge Christ out of his own Temple and not know it Vindication fol. 57. The practical power of godlinesse is generally more evidently visible and the lives of the generality of the people more strict pious lesse scandalous and licentious in our English Congregations where there hath been powerful preaching without the practice of Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament then in the Reformed Churches of France Germany or Scotland Our English Ministers and Prostants generally excel all others notwithstanding their strict Discipline Inference Whence we may infer That the Vindication though it pretend in the general or face of it to be for Presbytery yet it is very clear that in aspersing the Government of all those Reformed Kingdoms where the practice and power of it hath been it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world and though it pull not down the Government quite yet it weakens the Posts or Judgements of men on which it stands I name not here the other Texts that the Vindication hath pull'd out of the building of the Presbyterial Government for the taking out the Scriptures are like the pulling out the nalls and pins from the house and a loosning of the frame This I observe because the Vindication professes so for that Government though I suppose many such friends in time might do as much harm if not more then those of the Separation whom he calls their enemies Surely I do believe France Germany Scotland had rather such Books were not writ in their behalf that opens the evil corruption and