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A01784 A glasse of the truthe Henry VIII, King of England, 1491-1547. 1532 (1532) STC 11919; ESTC S109575 32,619 82

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or decreed in any coūsaile of fathers For in all the coūsayles that we coulde fynde of Nycene we coulde fynde no suche thinge The .vij. counsell Carthaginense and Melitane also sayth well to the same in this maner Conci Carthaginense 7. et Mileta It hath pleased and is decreed that prestes deacons and other clerkes of lower degree if in their causes they complayne of their bysshoppes iudgementes that the bysshoppes whiche dwell by here the cause and suche as shall be taken to the cause by the consent of their bysshoppes lette them finysshe all that is betwene them But if they thynke mete to appele lette them nat appele farther than to the coūsels within Affrycke or to the primates of their owne prouince Who that wolde thinke that they ought to appele beyond the sees lette them be take of none within Affrike for christen men or as any of their communion Ouer and aboue all these the counselle of Antioche decreeth in this maner Conci Anti ochenum For ecclesiasticall causes controuersyes busines or matters whiche aryseth to be dissolued and eased we haue thought and decreed to suffice that thorowe euery prouince a counsell of the bisshoppes be had euery yere twyse The fyrst to begyn the thyrde weke after Easter the seconde the fyrste day of Octobre And in these counsels muste be present with them bothe preestes and diacons and all other whiche feleth them selfe agreued so to tary and abyde the sentence of the counsell Nother it may be lauful for any to make these counselles within them selfe without the knowledge of their Metropolitanes to whome it is certeine that it is gyuen and graunted to gyue iudgement of all causes Besyde these counsels Eginius the poope decreeth also Eginius papa that if for ouermoche farrenes vnmetenes of tyme or sorenesse of the waye it be greuous and paynefull to bringe a cause to the see of Rome that it be had to the primate THE DIVINE If these be so as ye alledge them and as I doubte nothynge but that they be it muste nedes be as ye haue sayde that this cause ought to be determyned within this realme For it is nat possyble that the pope maye well dispence immute or breke these counsels THE LAVYERE You take hit verye well For howe maye the bysshoppe of Rome or any other primate be so bolde as to breake the canons the whiche euerye one of them voweth to kepe and solemply professeth the same If he shulde so do The poope voweth and professeth to kepe the Canons may not breke the same ware he nat to be deposed accordynge to that the counselle Carthaginense decreeth Who coulde thynke that one Bysshoppe myghte destrue the actes of so many hooly fathers made with theyr one assente accordynge to the profession of blessed Gregorye THE DIVINE You speke cuyn as the thynge it selfe wolde haue you Ne dimittas legem manis tuae prouerb 1. For syn it is sayde by Salomon Leaue not or breake not thy mothers law who coulde thynke that the church of Rome whiche in dede is but a doughter of the churche vniuersall myght destroye the lawe of her mother Dothe not holy Poope Leo saye with an open voyce That thoughe there were nowe made a greatter counselle than was the Nicene it might not derogate our foure counselles The poope ought to rule by the lawe of god and coūsels and can nat dispēce against the canons Therfore the pope of Rome oughte to rule the Churche of Rome by the vniuersall counselles and the lawe of god and no wyse the contrarie THE LAVYERE Sothly as ye say Therfore he can not dispence agaynst the canons For who can dispence with hym selfe Or who can without faute breake that he hath openly professed Forsothe if he do agaynste this his profession he dothe therby depose him selfe as sayeth the counsell Carthaginense THE DIVINE And well worthy For bycause as sayeth our sauiour Christe the seruant is nat bygger than the maistre nor the Apostel or he that is sent bigger than he that sente hym syn that Christe came nat to breake the lawe but to fulfylle the same the pope of Rome can nothing do agaynst the lawe of his mother the churche vniuersall whose Canons he hathe professed to kepe with solempne vowe in the which vowe he can nat dispence with hym selfe nother any other can syn he hathe none superioure in spiritualtie THE LAVYERE That suche is the poopes vowe and open profession besydes other places appereth well by the counsels of Constance and Basyle and by the boke of bysshops whiche is called diurnus Iuo Epistola .lx. as sheweth the great clerke Iuo in his epistole Where he is erenest that the olde traditions and customes ought nat to be remoued or broken by any priuate lawes or newe traditions For agaynst the statutes of the fathers the authorite of the see of Rome can nothynge do ne chaunge with vs sayth he there whiche is pope Zozimus sayenge also lyueth and remayneth antiquite so roted and fast grounded that it will nat away Zozimus to the whiche the decrees of fathers hath gyuen and establisshed suche reuerence Wherfore the poopes of Rome be or oughte to be the kepers or mainteiners and nat the breakers of the holy canons Thus sayeth Leo thus sayeth Bonifacius and thus sayeth poope Gelasius Pope Celestine affirmeth Celestinus papa that he thynketh ylle of the pope ye the worste that can be whiche thynketh that he maye ordeyne any thynge agaynst the canons THE DIVINE The holy doctours and diuines also agreeth well with this Especiall saynte August in the epistle Ad Glorium tofore rehersed is playn in this Pope Zozimus as ye knowe is clere in it Damasus papa Hilarius Pope Damasus Hilarius with other will no breche or transgression of the canons without an ineuitable necessite the whiche as they say god forbyd Therfore as sayeth Gerson it is an excedyng and an vnruly errour of them Gerson the whiche sayeth that the deliberation or counsell of the pope weyeth aboue the delyberation of the churche or counsell generall Or that affirmeth that the pope is nat bounde to folowe the counsell and obey the same except that he wyll THE LAVYERE Certeynely you come well to the purpose For the holy coūsell of Constance decreeth also the same in these wordes Conci constantien Euery man of what so euer state or dignite that he be ye though he be the pope is bounde to obey the generall counsell in these thinges whiche perteyne to our christen faythe to the helpe and extirpation of a Scisme and generally to the reformation of the churche of god in the heed and in the membres It decreeth moreouer thus who so euer of what so euer state or dignite that he be ye though he be pope hym selfe wyl disdayne or refuse to obey the cōmandementes statutes or ordinances of this coūsell or of any other general coūsell nowe made or hereafter
shall occurre to my mynde Yet one thinge I muste knowe youre wyll in ere that I procede any farther THE LAVYERE What is that I beseche you THE DIVINE Mary syre this is hit whether you wyll that I shulde shewe you whatte the olde auncient doctours do saye or what the modernes whiche somewhat flattereth the popes authoritie sayeth other elles declare you myne opinion taken out of bothe whiche I truste shall nat be farre frome truthe THE LAVYERE The auncient doctours and many also of the modernes opinion hathe benne declared herin in many other bokes and warkes of whiche I haue sene some bothe of laten and englysshe But is there say you difference emongest other of their opinions THE DIVINE Ye forsothe for some of the modernes smake to moche of your lawe in wrestyng of scripture for auauncement of dignite whiche the olde fathers do clene forbydde and contempne and lykewise also dyuers other modernes Wherby you may well perceiue that there is some alteration emōge them THE LAVYERE That is true But whiche thynke you do beste THE DIVINE They that do leste attribute arrogancy rule and dominion to the spiritualtie The pope can nat dispence with the lawe of god nature Quare nos trāsgredimi ni praeceptū dei propter traditiones uīas Ma. 15. Scriptura ꝓphetica non est humanae intpretationis 2. Petri. 1. For sure hit wyll be at length els their vtter confusion hit is so abhominably at this day abused and presumed on But nowe to my matter The scripture sayeth these wordes why do you breke or transgresse the commandement of god for your owne traditions And also these wordes The prophetical and holy Scripture is not of mans interpretacion With this moreouer scripture must nedes stande vnlosed All these auncient authors also whiche here foloweth do say Non potest solui scriptura Ioan. 10. Augusti accordingly to holy scripture that the pope can nat dispence with other the lawe of god or nature Saynt Augusten besydes other places in the epistole whiche he wryteth Ad Glorium Eleusinum sheweth that he is vnder the general counsell Wherfore moch the more he must nedes be vnder the lawe of god Saynt Ambrose in his boke de Paradiso affirmeth the same Ambro. Bernardus Lykewise saint Bernarde bothe in his epistle Ad Adam mona chum and in his boke de dispensatione et prae ceptis Holy popes also that were in the olde tyme do confesse the same Fabianus papa Marcellinus papa Vrbanus papa Zozimus As Fabianus papa in his epistle Ad orientales Mercellinus papa in his epistole Ad orientales Also Vrbanus papa in 25. q. 1. Sunt quidam Zozimus papa in de statutis gentiū Where he sayth that agaynst the statutes and decrees of fathers the see of Rome can nother make ne chaunge nothyng Moche lesse ayenst the scriptures and statutes of god Damasus Innocentius Damasus papa ad Aurelium Archiepiscopū ▪ Innocentius papa in ca. litteras Besyde these other auncient authors confirme the same as Basilius magnus in regula monachorum Basilius Beda Isidorus Beda in expositione epistolae Petri. Isidorus ca. Si is qui preest With these agreeth as in one also these lattre diuines Posteriores Theologi Alexandre de Halys Scotus Occham Richardus de media Villa Albertus Iacobus de Lauzanna Altissiodorensis Franciscus de Maronis Gerson Durandus Gabriel Biel Herueus Bernardus de Trilla Antoninus Florentinus Ioan. Lupus and many mo whiche do playnely affirme that no man canne proue that the poope maye dispense with other the lawe of nature or the lawe of god Wherfore hit foloweth well that this beynge the lawe of god as hit hath bene bothe well and playnely afore declared and proued as me thynketh hit is euidente hit is easye bothe to perceyue and beleue that syn it is thus grounded on the very lawe of god hit is also indispensable Nowe than more ouer seynge that this case is also determyned as well by auncient authours as by generall counsels ye and holy popes owne confessions and seyng also that all these doth agre both modernes and other with the full consent of the moste parte of all the Vniuersities lerned men at this houre within christendome that this case is indispensable me thinketh gretly that we ought this matter being so euidently opened declared clerely holy to beleue this and as true subiectes to stycke with our souerayne prince in this his iust doynge laudable act For as me semeth it is a sinful an vnnatural al demeinour of subiectes what synistre laboure so euer be made to the cōtrary to mysdeme their prince that in so waightie a cause he wolde be seducid and vse affections Whiche hytherto rayning the .xxiij. yere ouer vs and more hath shewed hym selfe in all his doinges but iust indifferent most vpryght And I for my parte The cause of the peoples blyndenesse do rather arrecte this blindnes of the people more to ignoranci with a litle to moche lightnes in credence to light folke the whiche goeth about to seduce them than to any other acte of vnnaturall duetie For I thynke verely that there was neuer prince amonge vs that euer was better beloued nor that hathe deserued more to be Wherfore nowe vsynge the sayinge of seynt Poule Hortamuruos 2. Corynth 6. I do exhort you in our lord god that you his subiectis do exonerat your selfes of al maner of groūdes or occasiōs that might brede any vnkyndnes in his hart toward you And also his maiestie you with al due reuerence so doynge to continue his well approued zeale and feruent loue alwayes hytherto shewed emonge you to the intent aforesayd whiche is that we may haue accordinge to Christes owne wordes one flocke and one heed THE LAVYERE On my faythe you haue satisfyed me both with great and many authorities and as me thinketh also with inuincible reasons I pray god myn answeres to your questions may satisfie you as well and with as moche truthe as youres hathe done me THE DIVINE I doubte nat but they shall For your intente as a man maye iudge and your lernyng also is of that integrite that otherwise than truth can nat succede so farre as the lawe can say Wherfore I pray you answere me firste to this question Might this cause be harde and ware hit a due course that hit shulde be harde within this realme as in the beginninge of this mattere me thoughte you sayde THE LAVYERE Syre I nat onely affirme that hit myghte be but also I vtterly protest That this cause oughte to be herd herewith in the realme determined that hit ought to be so For as it was ordeyned in the counsell of Nyce and lykewyse in other generall counsels of the world that euery cause shulde be decyded where it first beganne euen so this cause beinge fyrst begonne here in Englande shulde likewyse haue ben here in Englande determyned THE DIVINE In