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Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91884	A moderate answer to Mr. Prins full reply to certaine observations on his first twelve questions: vvherein all his reasons and objections are candidly examined and refuted. A short description of the congregationall way discovered. Some arguments for indulgence to tender consciences modestly propounded. By the same author.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?, attributed name.	1645 (1645)	Wing R1676; Thomason E26_20; ESTC R13022	43,033	54

A Moderate ANSWER TO Mr. Prins full Reply To certaine Observations on his first Twelve Questions VVherein all his Reasons and Obiections are candidly examined and refuted A short description of the Congregationall way discovered Some Arguments for indulgence to tender Consciences modestly propounded By the same Author LONDON Printed for Benjamin Allen and are to be sold at his shop in Popes head Alley at the signe of the Crowne 1645. A Moderate Answer to Master Prinnes Booke called A FULL REPLY I Will not stand upon the many loose passages and hard speeches that this Reply is full of desiring rather the opening of truth then the discovery of any mans corruptions wise men that must see us both will judge us not by our words but by our reason If truth be on his side surely he hath very much spoiled her beautifull face with his black and uncharitable language Truth is most glorious in her owne garments whatever men cloath her with but her owne apparell doth but deforme her If this be her attire that Master Prinne presents here arrayed in certainly she hath changed her forme she never came out so of the bosome of Christ she was never wont to appeare among the Saints in such a garbe passion and railing were never wont to be her companions peace gentlenesse and meeknesse ever attended her as handmaids How little of this waits on his Reply let any that was ever acquainted with such a spirit judge In the very title-leafe he cryes out an anonymous Author ashamed of his name were you ashamed of your name Sir when you put forth The unbishoping of Timothy and Titus The quench Coale The Abreviate all which you owne in this Reply You that writ The Anatomy of Independency The mystery of Iniquity The Subjects liberty all without your name call in your Books write no more You are ashamed of your names You are not ignorant of the many worthy things that have beene put forth without a name there be many reasons may be given for it it is not the name but the thing not who writ but what is written that will satisfie The truth is we are falne into times wherein as Tertullian of old complained men receive fidem ex hominibus non homines ex fide I desired naked truth might appeare though I was not seene in the setting of it forth in his Preface he cryes out He is hated envied ●…pugned for telling of the truth If to answer be to envy hate c. no truth of Christ can lawfully be stood for surely the Spirit of Christ never taught you to jduge so harshly of those who onely labour to vindicate the truth of Christ and friendly to examine your ungrounded queries about it To passe over many other things which to speake to will rather fill up the paper then be satisfactory observe but one or two of these reasons he gives for his writing by way of question First In his Preface to independency examined c. that he saith the Independents had never dogmatically to his knowledge resolved or discovered in print what that Church-government is they so eagerly contend for and yet take notice he confutes them urgeth these Queries as his Reasons What a contradiction this is let all judge how a man can confute that in an opinion which he knowes not to be held in it and out-argue that he never knew dogmatically resolved on is beyond my intellectuals to conceive Neither I saith he nor any one writer ever discovered it and yet Master Prinne hath confuted it unanswerably For that saith he he seriously professeth thefore God Angels or men that he could never yet discover in least footsteps of it in Scripture Antiquity c. I shall only pray that God would anoint your eyes with the eye-salve of the Word that you may see these truths of Jesus Christ which are yet hid from your eyes which many precious Saints humbly conceive they see and so see that if God should call them are willing to seale their sight with their blood But to the matter To the first question he saith I give no answer but onely misreciteth the question without his limitations and then refute what my selfe propounded not be he should have shewne wherein and then might justly have challenged me for it I shall intreat the judicious Reader but to compare both It seems Master Prinne is ashamed now to thinke that there is no positive rule in the Word for Church-government but that it may be suited to States He saith I should have exactly proved by direct Scriptures that Christ hath prescribed one set immutable forme of Government to all Christians Nations c. from which none must vary in a tittle and then have proved from Gospel Texts that which he calls independencie to be this Government but in this Point the Respondent is wholly silent and I shall expect saith he his Answer Ad Graecas Calendas Observe Reader that yet he saith in the following words I indeavour to prove it to say nothing to be wholly silent and to indeavour to prove a thing to me can have no better title then a grosse contradiction but to the thing First Whereas he requires of me as in the former words so here a full discovery of Church-government in the world and this is that he in all his papers demands that we will fully discover this Government in the word I answer First If by a full discovery he meanes that we say all that can be said of it in the word or is laid up there it is Iniquum postulatum most unjustly demanded for even In credendis in matters of faith neither Master Prin nor any else is able to say all that can be said of it or fully to discover the many things that the word holds forth to be beleeved for salvation God reveales more and more of the Gospel every day in a fuller and clearer manner much lesse can any man as yet discover what is required for matter of Government As for our parts we are far from such a thought that we know all things in the word about Church-government but that more of it may be still revealed and we daily search and wait for more knowledge in it But secondly if he meanes we should discover what we hold concerning it let him know that for what we hold in it we can evidence from Scripture every particular and as much as is needfull in this Controversie For the matter of a Church that it should be Saints we conceive it to be evident from these Scriptures Rom. 1. 7. 1 Cor. 1. 2. 2 Cor. 1. 1. Ephes 1. 1. Phil. 1. 1. and in vers 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it s a righteous thing for me to judge so of you all now the Apostle wrote to them as they were Churches of Christ and to explaine what they were he calls them Saints such as it were an unrighteous thing to judge otherwise of them and its reason that

those who can really be judged to be so if prophane persons must be in the Church as you say then I know no reason but all may be in the Church and no man in the world may be said to be out of the Church for the most are ungodly if ungodly ones do steal in among the Saints to a Church they prosper not and Christ will discover them to their everlasting shame and more dreadfull judgments follow none as these Christ dwells in his house which is the Church and it s no pleasure to Christ to see a mixture among his owne he that made a whip of cords to drive out the buyers and sellers out of the materiall Temple will take rods of iron to whip out such ungodly wretches I am sure Christs bread belongs to no such dogs only the children are welcome and he hath given power to his Church to keep out these that have not a judged right Againe if prophane persons and such as walke not like Saints are to be cast out of the church then such as are judged so must not be admitted into the church but the former is true Ergo. That they are to be cast out of the Church is cleer from the Scriptures Mat. 18. 1 Cor. 5. that therefore they ought not to be admitted is as cleare for the same ground is in both they are admitted in because they walke as Saints and so are judged to be Saints they are cast out because they walk not as such the truth is this principle will soon lessen a Nationall Church and therefore no wonder the Presbyterians are shye of holding it for they must cast out the most of their members assoon as they receive them in It s the strangest thing to me and I startle at it many times what strict rules the Presbyterians have laid down in their Sermons in print Master D●…s preparation to the Sacrament and their Sermons before the Sacrament every moneth in which they lay on men such qualifications both habituall and actuall that there is not one in a hundred of the best Saints can follow them and yet blame their brethren for keeping of there which they cannot judge to have the least degree of these qualifications they tell them it belongs not to them they will eate and drinke their owne damnation on and yet cry out in these that would not have these poor souls contract such guilt and draw on such ruine on their own souls and therefore keep them back do you take in these who are drunkards whoremongers c. into communion in the ordinances blame us not if we keep our selves from such defilements For his answer saith he to that of Act. 15 all ages Churches till this present have held it as an expresse warrant for provinciall and nationall Synods and their making Cannons in Church affaires I shall not say much to this not doubting but we shal see these things shortly in print which our brethren have urged in the Assembly How that can be a formall Synod I could never see yet made forth For First This was not a gathering of the Elders of many Churches who make a Synod but only some messengers whether Elders or no the Text speaks not occasionally sent up to Jerusalem to that Church there Secondly here was the whole multitude viz. the Brethren present besides the Apostles and Elders and the Letter that is sent is as much written in their name as of any of the Elders now the Brethren or multitude are not usuall to be Members of Synods Thirdly the Message is sent as the mind of the Holy Ghost and not their bare judgments but that which they had principally received by inspiration from the Spirit and is not now ordinary to any Synod for what Synod I can say it seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and us to lay such things on you Fourthly if this were a Synod made up of Elders of severall Congregations and that Paul and Barnabas went not up to prove the false Apostles lyars but to have the truth manifested which they could not do then a Synod of Elders have more power then bare Apostles to order things in the Church Paul and Barnabas were men very unfit to be Apostles if they could not have determined such a question whether it was necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised who were to plant and order things in all the Churches and who had power over all Churches and were to write the man I of God to them surely one Apostle had more knowledge of the things of God and of matters of controversie in the Church then all the Synods in the world besides nay all are to follow what they loft to the Churches it were greatly to diminists the Apostles power and the highnesse of that office to think than they could not determine such a question but must go to a Synod to have it cleared up to them Besides it was an Apostle when they came up to Jerusalem viz. Peter who decided the controversie and Paul and Barnabas were men of as great judgement and had as much power as he However we think not that to be a Synod yet the convening of Assemblies and Synods for advice and counsell we deny not but that any Synod or Councell hath an authoritative jurisdiction to impose Laws and Canons for all Churches to walk by we conceive cannot be proved neither from this of Acts 15. or any other Text Yea even this Assembly now among us the Parliament have called onely for advice not intending to give them a power of jurisdiction over them and all the Kingdome Master Pryn saith and takes much pains to prove in his late triumphing book that Synods and Councells and Magistrates have ever used to make Laws for the Church to exercise a coercive power in matters of Religion De Facto and he might have saved himself labour to have proved it but whether De Jure there is such a power invested in them and from what Scripture I have not yet seen and should be glad to be informed by him To my ninth Querie saith he and Argument in it he returns nothing worthy Reply but upon this Petitio principii that the Scriptures and the Apostles have prescribed a set form of Government c. which I have proved before and that the Churches in the Apostles dayes were Independent though doubtlesse saith he all Churches were then subject to the Apostles Laws and Edicts c. therefore not Independent What there is in this worthy of Reply I am ignorant of yet this is to be noted hwo the Presbyterians make a market of this scandalous name of Independents they have fastened on us viz. To make the world beleeve that we are subject to no Laws that neither Gods Word nor mans is a rule to us for this is the naturall sense of his words he saith The Primitive Churches were subject to the Apostles Laws Ergo Not Independent As if we held that we were