it had neuer bene séene These hastie vntruthes haue yet little spéedy successe Let vs se the residue The. B. of Saris. That they were written in Greeke and not in Latine that they could be layde vp in secrecie for the space of a thousande fiue hundred yeare and more and no man misse them Harding The .20 vntruth They were knowne to the fathers Dering It was very wrangling to begin that vntruth which common sense doth teach vs had no falshoode in it to persue it that is great ouersight but to make two of it that is extréeme follie They were kept in secrecie sayth Maister Iuell these 1500 yeares and this is true they were not openly knowne as Maister Harding himselfe doth confesse therefore they were secrete and how could they haue béene secrete except some had hid them but why doth he not tell Maister Iuels tale hole They were not knowne saith he in these countries Maister Iuell himselfe as is aforesaide doth alleage Leo and Gelasius both Bishops of Rome and Bessarion a cardinall who all condemne the booke Reade the Replie good reader and thou shalt find it true and how could they haue done it if they had neuer séene the booke This wrangling this lying thys wicked Reioinder were it not that some ignorant man might beleue it it should not haue one worde aunswered But God deliuer vs from such contagious poison The B. of Saris. Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius sayth certaine other bookes are abroade in the name of Clement as the disputation of Peter and Appion which bookes were neuer in vse among the fathers neyther containe they pure and apostolicall doctrine Harding The .21 vntruth Saint Ierom is falsified Dering It is reported of Brutus that he was woont to say he had spent his time euill that coulde denie nothing M Harding perhaps to eschew this blame hath prepared himself when it pleaseth him to denie any thing The fault that Maister Iuell here findeth with Clement is that by the testimonie of Saint Ierom his bookes are not pure and apostolicall It is neuer a worde so saith Maister Harding Saint Ierom is falsified If Brutus were now aliue peraduenture M. Harding might be commended But bicause Saint Iohn hath bid vs not to beléeue euery spirite euery bold asseueration must not stand for true Let vs sée what Ierom himself sayth and we shall iudge the better whether Maister Iuels report be true or no. Thus he writeth The olde writers haue quite reiected these other bookes ascribed to Clement And Eusebius in his third booke of the ecclesiasticall historie doth reproue them Now except Maister Harding will say that the Apostles writing is condemned of these olde writers and catholike fathers or that Eusebius that good bishop of Caesarea reproueth their doctrine Why will he not haue his Clement to be accounted not apostolicall whom the old fathers reiect and Eusebius reproueth The substaunce of such vntruthes doe make the gatherer appeare either ignorant or euill disposed Harding The .22 vntruth Dering Here Maister Harding maketh one vntruth ioyntly out of Saint Ierom and Eusebius where Maister Iuel saith Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius saith thus c. M. Harding for the better multiplying of vntruthes saith first Saint Ierom sayth it not next Eusebius sayth it not thirdly they say it not Had he dwelt among the Lacedemonians for this great talke of vntruthes little reason in shewing them he should surely haue bene accounted for a babler If we graunt that his sayings are true yet are these thre but one vntruth and that not made by M. Iuell but by S. Ierom. Thus we sée when it pleaseth him he will not vnderstand neither the common phrase of speaking nor what is ment by plaine sayings Again when it pleaseth him he will vse more Logicke then either is true or honest Such a Proteus he is in his owne vnderstanding The. B. of Saris. Clement is condemned by Gelasius Harding The .23 vntruth It is not condemned by him Dering Nowe Maister Harding is come to his olde compasse He denieth he careth not what Nothing shall want a bold asseueration if his simple authoritie may proue any vntruth but let vs not trust him before we trie him so we shall knowe the better what Gelasius sayth His wordes are thus reported by Gracian We haue thought good to note certain bookes which are come to knowledge and ought to be auoyded of catholike people First the councell holden at Ariminum gathered by Constantine the Emperour the sonne of Constantinus by meane of Taurus lieutenant from thenceforth and for euer we iudge worthy to be condemned Likewyse the Iournall of Peter the Apostle bearing y e name of Clement Eight bookes are secrete vnlawfull writings Nowe consider with these wordes of Gelasius this booke which for his Masse sake M. Harding doth so much defende It goeth vnder the name of Clement so doth that which Gelasius condemneth It contayneth .viii. bookes and so doth that They are accoūted Apocrypha secret writings and so are the other Beside this Gelasius condemneth a booke called the Iournall of Peter and this Clement himselfe sayth that S Peter willed him to write that booke but yet vnder this title that it should be called the Iournall of Clement And to conclude those bookes condemned by Gelasius teach euill doctrine and so doth this Clement And shall Maister Hardings plaine wordes counteruaile so much likelihoode Well may those erre that néedes will be deceyued But among the louers of truth such vntruthes will be very odious The B. of Saris. Abdias was conuersant with Christ. Harding The .24 vntruth I say not he was conuersant with Christ. Dering Maister Harding may score vp his vntruthes after what sorte it pleaseth him but any indifferent man must needes thinke that Maister Iuell doth not falsifie his wordes when he layth them altogither euen as they are written If in repetition of any part of them he doe mistake the meaning such error deserueth verye little blame But bicause M. Harding is so farre driuen that if he should let slip euen the least aduauntage he shoulde sustaine great losse of his whole cause let vs examine all that is reproued and yéelde vnto the vtmost that may appéere faultie I say not saith he that Abdias was conuersant with Christ. But he sayth he saw Christ in the flesh and wrote diuers histories of the Apostles doings at which he himselfe was present of this to say he was conuersant with Christ is scarce worth the fault finding Yet maister Harding sayth stifly he onely sawe Christ in the flesh he was not conuersaunt with him By like he looked through the creuice with Eubulus when Christ helped Saint Basil to Masse and by that meanes Abdias could but sée him The B. of Saris. Lazius sayth that Saint Luke borrowed whole histories worde for worde out of Abdias Harding The .25 vntruth Lazius sayth not so Dering Here is first a very graue note in a weighty
matter that M. Iuell nameth him Zazius in steede of Lazius as who say that euery man must not néedes knowe Wolfangus Lazius that hath séene Abdias False printing can not blame the author where wrangling is not in place Lazius sayth eyther Saint Luke borrowed hole stories of Abdias or Abdias of S. Luke By this it appeareth Lazius is well content if you thinke S. Luke borrowed his writing of him Nowe for the more contempt of so vaine and fonde a saying Maister Iuell may well report his wordes absolutelye and ought not for that to bée blamed with vntruth Yet let vs admit that Lazius saying were sufferable I aske of M. Harding how a disiunctiue proposition may be improued without affirming or denying one certaine part Besides this it is no newes to Wolfangus Lazius to speake sometime at randome when he should speake truth He hath other wheres many absurdities and some both slaunderous and odious to rehearse ywis by good account a man may easily finde more lyes in his bookes than frier Furius can chalenge in Sleydaines commentaries but let them go For this present matter Maister Iuell eyther in contempt of this vaine imagination or for the more appearaunce of so great an absurdity without any suspicion of vntrue dealing may before all good men report these wordes as he doth The. B. of Saris. He maketh many shamelesse lyes and sayth that he was present with Christ and at most part of the Apostles doings Harding The .26 vntruth He sayth not so Dering If we marke M. Iuels wordes well we shall sufficientlye be forewarned As touching these vntruthes he maketh saith Maister Iuell many shamelesse lyes and sayth he was present at the Apostles doings Here maister Harding can challenge no vntruth concerning Abdias shamelesse lying but for his presence at the most of the Apostles doing that saith he is nothing so Let vs take that which by silence M. Harding confesseth and then if Abdias haue many shamelesse lyes how can he further Maister Hardings Masse or if he haue not why is it not noted for an vntruth By like he thought that by speaking nothing of Abdias lies they might be forgotten and by calling them to tryall Abdias should be quite shamed For my part I meane not to meddle with them they are mo in number then in short time may be recited Onely I aduertise thée to reade the booke due tryall shall be surest iudge As touching this present vntruth whether he were cōuersant with the Apostles or no it maketh no great matter what skilleth it what he was or what time he liued It is smale credit to Esopes fables that the author liued in king Croesus dayes Yet for maister Hardings pleasure let vs sée this vntruth He sayth not sayth maister Harding that he was present at most of the Apostles doings I aunswere that it is not necessary to be very scrupulous in reporting of Abdias his wordes it is more then he deserueth if we vouchsafe to recite his meaning Thus much maister Harding and Abdias do say that he was the Apostles scholer that he was present at the death of Saint Andrew and Saint Thomas at the doings of Simon and Iude which were all Apostles and of all this is it much if we say that he was present at the most of the Apostles doinges Such is this Abdias He hath deserued yll maister Hardings friendship His credite is so little that he can not further hys priuate Masse His doings are so vnreasonable that they can not be defended without shame But the prouerbe is verified like will to like An ill cause hath most ground in vnsufficient witnesse and an ill patrone is best content with vnable authoritie The. B. of Saris. It may be gathered by Saint Augustine in sundrie places that some part of this booke was written by certaine heritikes called the Manichees Harding The .27 vntruth Saint Augustine hath no such thing of Abdias Dering This vntruth is little worth and soone aunswered It may be gathered sayth Maister Iuell But saint Augustine speaketh not of Abdias saith M. Harding It is true in déede saint Augustine doth not name him for if he did there neded thē no gathering The thing were plaine It is an easie thing to find many vntruthes if we make our aduersary to say what wée list Whether Augustine meane of Abdias or no that shall bée séene in y e next vntruth Here is nothing affirmed but that he may séeme to meane him that this may be gathered M. Har. denieth not That Abdias is ment it must appeare by the next vntruth So either maister Harding maketh two vntruthes of one as his maner is or here speaketh nothing to the purpose as he commonly vseth The B. of Saris. For he reporteth the fables of Saint Thomas of Saint Mathew of Saint Andrew of the Lyon that slue the man that had striken Saint Thomas of the dog that brought the same mans hande to the table of Maximilla wife vnto Egis and other like tales euen in such order as they be set foorth by this Abdias Harding The .28 vntruth Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevve The .29 vntruth He nameth not Andrevv The .30 vntru He speaketh not of Maximilla vvhich Abdias ment Dering M. Hardings vntruthes amount not yet to his mind Therfore he thinketh it not amisse to quote them a little faster vpō which aduice he maketh thrée in one periode he might as wel haue sayde S. Augustine mentioneth not these stories and so haue made but one saue that he loueth not such plaine dealing But the matter is not great as short an aunswere will serue for all as if they had béene but one Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevv nor Andrevv Marke good reader this vntruth Maister Iuell sayth Saint Augustine telleth the tales of Mathevv and Andrevv and so he doth let the booke be the iudge Maister Harding sayth S. Augustine nameth them not neyther doth maister Iuell saye he nameth them take away this much wrangling and here is no vntruth at all But this we haue to note by the way for the better credite of maister Hardings Abdias that Saint Augustine condemneth those tales for lyes which Abdias telleth for a certaine truth Concerning y e tale of Maximilla wife to Aeges which maister Harding saith is not reported in the same sort by Abdias as it is by Saint Augustine first we must knowe both Augustine and Abdias meane the same woman as shall appeare in y e .31 vntruth Then Augustine speaketh of hir as of a foolish vaine tale Abdias speaketh of hir doings as of true and weightie stories Thus it appeareth though Saint Augustine doe not name the parties yet he agréeth in the tales and when this shall be knowne the .27 vntruth shall be iustified That it may be gathered Saint Augustine meaneth of Abdias these thre latter vntruthes which are but the proufe of Maister Iuels coniectture shall appeare so good that before the true christian reader the quoting of
naming the holy captain Iosue for the Prophet Ose. fo 98. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fo 100. expresse for represse fol â—od alone hereof for in earth aboue hir fol. 102. but you haue for but your churche hath fol. 104. cansabo for cantabo fol. 111. Antonius for Antoninus And after thou shalt finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 destruction for distinction could easily for could not easily These and suche other faultes escaped in the printing of my boke as well in the wordes as in the pointing how many so euer thou shalt ascribe vnto me so many iniuries thou shalt doe me He is a simple scholer that can not write truely and the pointing is not so difficult that it requireth any great learning for other things what so euer shalbe founde blame worthy the fault is mine owne and wherein souer the enimy shall finde his fault I doubt not but I shall by Gods grace be able to defend it The force of truth is such that though the patrone be simple yet she will defend hir self especially suche truth as hath made hir selfe so manifest The truthe of God that standeth vpon a hill and may be seene of all men the truth that shineth as a light in a darke place and as the day starre arising in our heartes that truthe whose glorious beautie hath darkned the painted and deceiueable lokes of the purple whore of Babilon It is now no mastery sith we know God to know him that lifteth vp himself against God sith we know Christ to know Antichrist sith we know Peter to know Peters forged successoure And for as much as to this issue al our controuersie is come that what right or authoritie so euer the Pope chalengeth he maketh his whole claime from Peter and the papists themselues will defende him no further but so farre as he succedeth Peter I will speake a little of Peters bishoprike of Rome so farre as the scriptures shall be my warrant Consider thou of it good christian Reader that shall be said and if thou see that all the glorying of Peters being at Rome is but a fasing out of an impudent he then iudge what is their other religion First here I must forwarne thee that as a lie can not long agree with it selfe so in all this matter thou shalt hardly finde in all pointes two popishe chronicles agree togither So that what so euer I wryte as touching the exacte computation of yeres there must needes be many against me Therefore in that I will not striue only I will wryte that which is certaine and shall haue as I said either some warrant of scripture or shall be agreed on by the consent of all ages Our sauioure Christ was crucified for our sinnes the .18 yeare of Tyberius as by all histories it is manifest Peter is said to be put to deathe in Rome the last yeare of Nero so Peter liued after Christ vnder Tyberius .v. yeare Caligula 4. yeare Claudius .13 yeare Nero. 13 yeare In all .36 yeares and odde monthes according to the raigne of the saide Emperoures in these .36 yeares and odde moneths they vvryte of Peter thus He vvas bishop â–ª 4. yeares in the East partes .7 yeares at Antioche and .25 yeares at Rome vvhere at last he died Heere this fable doeth almost bevvray it selfe suche hasty enstallings and so many translatings out of one bishopprike into an other doeth not vvell agree vvith oure sauiours vvordes that they should haue affliction in the vvorlde But let vs searche the scriptures and trie hovve these Bishopprikes vvil stande After that our Sauioure is ascended they goe into Ierusalem all the Apostles togither they choose Mathie the Apostle After fiftye dayes they receiue the holy Ghost Peter conuerteth many After certaine dayes Peter and Iohn goe vppe in to the Temple they heale the lame they are put in prisone they are forbidden to preache anye more in the name of Iesus then they returne vnto the other Apostles and tary many daies togither working many miracles amoÌ„g the people in so much that the Cities round about resorted daily to Ierusalem to haue their sick and diseased healed Then again the Apostles are put in prison and God deliuereth theÌ„ and many dayes they preach in the temple and in euery house After this came a great persecution against the Church at Ierusalem in so much that they were all dispearsed sauing the Apostles Then at the laste after many dayes Peter is sent out of Ierusalem into Samaria where he preacheth in diuers townes about Thus farre good Reader thou seest plainly Peter is no bishop nor yet in any speciall authoritie when the other Apostles sende him out to preache Then he returneth againe to Ierusalem and this is one yeare after the death of our sauioure Christ as the histories do all agree in reporting the conuersion of S. Paule which was nowe done as appeareth Act. 9. This is the yeare of our Lord .35 In the yere of our Lord .38 He dwelleth in Ierusalem Gal. 1.18 Likewise in the yere of our Lorde .46 he is imprisoned at IerusaleÌ„ Act. 12.2 Againe in the yeare of our Lord .48 he is at the councel holden in Ierusalem Act. 15.7 from that day forward he giueth his faith vnto Paule and Barnabas that he will be an Apostle not to the Romaines but to the Iewes Gal. 2.9 vvhich truely he accompliâ—hed euen vntill his death and doubtlesse neuer came at Rome Now christian reader seing the scripture lieth thus that Peters aboade in Ierusalem after the conuersion of S. Paule Anno Domini .35 is recorded .iij. seuerall times And after the last time a couenaunt made that he woulde continue among the Iewes If I shall proue vnto thee that these seuerall times are rightly numbred according to the yeare of the Lorde that is that the first time was the .38 yeare the seconde time the .46 yeare the third time the .48 yeare and then in the meane while betwene the .35 yeare and the .38 likewise the .38 and the .46 and betwene the .46 and .48 that Peter was not in Rome last of all that he was true of his promise and after the .48 yeare came not at Rome then I trust thou wilt confesse with me that Peter was neuer .25 yeares Bishop of Rome But that all poperie as it is in it selfe nothing but lies so it is grounded wholly and altogither vpon lies First it is agreed vpon by all the thing is plaine in it self Paule was conuerted the yere of our Lord .35 TheÌ„ Paule himself writeth thus After three yeres I came to IerusaleÌ„ to see Peter and abode in his house .xv. dayes so this was the .38 yere of our Lord when Peter is first in IerusaleÌ„ When he was after imprisoned at Ierusalem Act. 12.2 that it was the .46 yeare of our Lorde it is proued thus The countreis about â–ª that is Tyre and Sidon were
first how vnwares he speaketh contrarie to him selfe He confesseth flatly that this negatiue of S. Gregorie wherin he denieth any ought to be vniuersall Bishop is in defence of the truth Yet Maister Harding in the fourth article goeth about to proue that the pope is vniuersal B. so by his own confession he goeth about to proue a lye Secondarely he confesseth at the last that Maister Cranmar was a Byshop and Maister Iuell with other his felowes are Bishops yet at other times he and his fellowes wil in no case graunt it Thirdly he saith no B. of Sarisburie was a Caluinist before Maister Iuell and that is a manifest lye Fourthly that no Byshop of Canterbury was maried before Cranmar and that is an otherlie So in al this former péece either he speaketh nothing but lyes or if it be true it is such truth as by open writing he hath impugned But Maister Harding bicause he can not deny this contrarietie he will bid vs proue the other that any B. of Sarisbury hath bene of one religion with Caluin or that any B. of Cant. hath bene maried In déede this is the ground of their whole religion bold asseuerations without any manner warrant and then they bid vs proue the contrary But although this vnequall dealing be not good and he that teacheth anye thing shoulde proue the same to be true yet I am content for truthes sake to reproue in fewe woordes these negatiues of Maister Hardings First this forbidding mariage was vniuersally established by Pope Siluester the seconde who was made Pope by the meanes and woorking of the deuil as their own writers confesse in the yeare of our Lord 980. Yet I graunt through the folly of vnlearned bishops about .400 yeares after Christ matrimonie in the cleargy began to be misliked especially in the West church For in the East church they made no account of it yea they thought it was no hinderaunce to the minister for perfourmance of his dutie in Gods church But as I haue said the West church in many places forbad it And S. Ierom although in many places he speake reuerently and well of it yet in some places vpon his owne priuate affection he misliketh it But as touching this purpose more then thre hundred yeares after Christ Priestes mariage was thought verie lawfull But the English men receiued the faith of Christ in the latter time of Nero as Gildas witnesseth an olde writer and a Britan who liued in the yeare of our Lord .580 and will Maister Harding say that the thing being lawfull yet in .300 yeare togither there was neuer a Byshop maried And let Mayster Harding héere make no exception either that in those dayes ther was no Byshops of Canterbury or Sarisbury or that Gildas auctority is not good Theodoretus saith that S. Paule him selfe preached héere in his latter time Nicephorus and other moe say they receiued the fayth in the yere of our Lord 63. by Ioseph of Arimathia After this supersticion began againe to bréede then an .179 many preachers were sent for to call them againe to their former profession Whervpō Tertullian speaking of this age saith Britānorum inaccessa Romanis loca Christo fuerin◠subdita And Petrus Cluniacensis speaking of the Scots calleth them christianos antiquiores the most auncient christian men And the story is knowen how Lucius then King of England was very diligent in setting out the Gospell Thus it appeareth the true faith hath bene in Englande almost euer since our sauiour Christ died Now y t in those daies ther wer bishops in Englād it is likewise manifest When Eleutherius the Pope 177. sent preachers into England they found here .3 called archiflamines and .25 called flamines which he turned in to thrée archbishops .25 byshops Thus much then is clere that in England were Christian bishops and they might mary Now to proue that they were maried it is plaine by Gildas in the latter ende of his booke where he reproueth the Bishops their wiues and their children So this lying negatiue of M. Harding is reproued that sayth no Bishop was euer maried in England before Bishop Cranmer For the other negatiue that there was neuer B. of Sarisburie of that religion which Caluine taught it appeareth by M. Iuels Replie which sheweth that not onely in England but in all Christendome that religion was in the chiefest articles professed And yet bicause it is here brought with the suretie of M. Hardings warrant we wyll speake a little of this negatiue It is boldlye auouched of manye popish Priestes that Christianitie was placed here by Augustine which is called the Englishe Bishop He was sent from Rome and landed in the Ile of Tenet in Kent an 596. But it is alredy shewed that we had the faith of Christ long before Then what did Augustine here I will tell thée Christian Reader and I wyll tell thée that which M. Harding shall nener be able to confute He did first perswade the King and Quéene not to enforce his new religion but to leaue it fréely to men to follow if they would Afterward being made Bishop of Canterburie by consent of a Synode he thrust into that Church altars vestiments images Masses challices crosses candlesticks ▪ sensers banners processions holy water holy bread funerals tithes and such other stuffe whych before that time was neuer séene in England Then he changed their kéeping of Easter day taught them manye ceremonies in Baptisme and when he coulde not bring all men to his diet he moued great persecution against such as defended the libertie of the Church Then he receiued from Rome relickes of diuers Saintes buylt a Monasterie to Saint Peter wrought many fained miracles and so at the last he died about the yeare of our Lord .610 Now for further proofe of this that Augustine marred and not made our religion it is verye probable that we neuer receiued our faith from Rome but from the East Church First bicause we vntill Augustine came among vs kept our Easter after the manner of the Gréeke Church Now it is well knowen what mortall hatred there was for that matter so that he which was enstructed of the one would in no wyse vse the order of the other Agayne when Augustine should be sent vnto them he came backe for feare and the Britaines would not receaue him nor acknowledge anye authoritie of Pope Gregorie ouer them Which sure they would neuer haue done if they had receaued theyr fayth from Rome Thus much then followeth we had the faith of the Gréeke Church without all superstitious ceremonies of the Church of Rome and so it is manifest our bishops were then of Maister Caluines profession in the whole substaunce of their religion And so is this other negatiue of M. Harding prooued a lye This I haue sayd the more at large bicause M. Hardyng and his fellowes woulde haue vs beleue that our faith came from the Pope and Dan Augustine
other place whatsoeuer is set before you eate it and aske no question for conscience sake These sayings cannot stande with Maister Hardings religion about such questions how the word of God might agrée with it selfe Those busye heades might haue ben better occupied then in mouing such doubtes as a Christian heart adhorreth to remember But if they had ben so occupyed in Gods most holy euangelies as they were in Peter Lumberdes fancies they woulde soone haue turned ouer these winde shaken opinions Now while Maister Hardings friendes shal muse how these sayinges may agrée I will shewe thée godly reader how the Eucharist hath no vse except it be receiued Consecrate while they will crosse round about the bread breath ouer it at their pleasure looke demurely as they can intend what they list except the breade be receiued no maner conueyaunce can bring Christes presence Somewhat for proufe of this maye appeare by the vsage of the pascall Lambe and of Manna Of the lambe nothing might be reserued til the morning what did remaine should be burnt with fire Therfore we may coniecture it should not be lawfull to reserue the sacrament So likewise of Manna nothing might be reserued till morning if ought were had it was turned into wormes and stanke These being both figures of our sacrament the coniecture is not euill to thinke lykewise the Eucharist might not be reserued then the case were plaine it had no vertue but being receiued Howe be it I wyll not force any suche comparisons God doth lighten whom it pleaseth him The scriptures doe other where testifie plentifullye this that we teache First the Eucharist is to vs as the peace offerings among the Iewes which was a sacrifice or thanks giuing offered for peace or prosperitie and as they that made any such offering must doe it before the doore of the Tabernacle of the congregation c so Aarons sonnes sprinckled the bloude about the aultar otherwise it had bene no peace offering So we in the Eucharist must come to the Congregation gyue thankes and prayses vnto God preache out the death of hys sonne Christ and eate and drink of that heauenly mysteries or els it is not the Eucharist And the church naming this sacrament Eucharistia hath well declared that without open thankes-geuing there is no suche sacrament But who can doubt any whyt of thys matter that readeth the woordes of our sauiour Christ reported by S. Iohn or the other Euangelists and S. Paule Labour for the meate sayth Christ that the sonne of man shall giue vnto you He sayth not for the meate which is hanged vp in the Pixe And the people make their aunswere Lord giue vs euermore of this bread Againe Christ sayth The breade which I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world Ther is then no benefite where this bread is not giuen and in this chapter it is often repeated that we must eate this flesh or els we haue no lyfe in vs. Yet in all this place nor in any place of scripture any one word is found y â— commendeth either mencioneth this sacrameÌ„t without the vse of it So if we wil apply this .6 chap. of Iohn to the sacrament as M. Harding in anye wyse will doe we sée how there is no grace no vertue in it if it be not vsed Concerning the woordes of this sacrament reported by the other Euangelistes and by saint Paule they are very plain Take and eate thys is my bodye saye they and of the Cup Drinke ye all of this thys is my bloude c. But by M. Hardings doctrine the holye ghost might haue spoken in this sorte Looke all vpon this and worship it this is my body And of the cup Drinke none of you of this yet it is my bloud Such is the sacriledge of that wicked masse in doing to vndoe that our Sauiour hath saide But here I cannot a little wonder at them In their owne inuentions they haue placed in their Masse these words accipite manducate and some thinke they are very requisite to transsubstanciation yet when they vtter them they meane nothing lesse than that any other but them selues should take part They prepare but a litle cake and a draught of wyne to make sporte with They intende not to communicate with other yet they saye alway take and eate A lye is very euill in any maner doing but in the seruice of God it is very detestable God when he will turne their hartes Here we se concerning this sacrament Christ commaunded nothing but that we shoulde in a holy company eate and drinke in remembrauncâ— of his death and passion But how turneth the Pope our sauiours commaundement He careth neither for eating nor drinking but when he goeth forth he setteth vp his sacrament vpon a white horse backe and men of eche syde with tapers and litle belles and so teacheth the horse that he will go to the aultare and there knéele vpon his knées till his Maisters god be taken downe Thus will the Pope teach horses to worship God euen as somtyme the Leuites woulde cary the Arke in a newe carte when they brought it out of the house of Aminadab For neyther haue we any one word to cary about the sacrament neyther had they of the carte And this is a greate misery that hauing no warrant for our Marchandise our candels our sensors our vestiments our oyle boxes our corporasse our porâ—uisse and sixe hundred thousandes suche other yet we make no account of them as though they pleased God If any thing séeme somewhat doubtfull then we turne vs to Doctors to councels to decrees to scholemen and to the holy closet of the Popes owne brest as thoughe Gods worde were not our wisedome and our vnderstanding in the sight of all people But God be thanked for his owne ordinaunces and lawes that are so righteous Now to the next marke that Maister Harding coulde neuer shoote at and this marke hath a great many péeces and such as is not easly discerned which is the greatest so I knowe not certainelye wher at to measure The first péece is this there is no difference betwixt the Priest and the people in the mystery of the sacrifice But what meaneth Maister Harding to finde the marke him selfe and then refuse to shoote at it Would he haue vs thinke this were Maister Iuels marke He saith no such thing Sure M. Harding hath verye straunge artillery His bow is made of slaunders and it will shoote nothing else but lies He can get nothing with cunning therfore he would saue him selfe by facing This stode them in good stede in the disputations at Oxford wher their friends wer moderators but in a booke that is written to all men this shift is shameles Let vs sée what saith M. Iuell of this marke Not one word Why doth Maister Harding reporte it He is disposed to lye But whervpon doth he gather it Forsoth out of Bernard
for he saith as Maister Iuell alledgeth not onely the priest sacrificeth but also the whole company of the faithful But what maketh this for Maister Harding The priest and the people both doe sacrifice therefore is there no difference in the ministerye S. Peter saith you are a kingly Priesthood therfore is ther no difference in the function betwene the minister and the laye man True it is that the minister and the people do offer vp a lyke one sacrifice vnto God but that maketh nothing to Maister Hardings saying Thus we se while he hobbeth and roueth and shooteth at euery marke a lie he was an hypocrite when he was at the best and nowe is led forwarde still to be an open enimie Reade the .222 vntruth An other péece of thys marke is this that men and women make the sacrifice of the aulter and be Priests after the order of Melchisedech Of this reade the .158 vntruth The last péece of thys marke is yet woorst of all nothing else but malice slaunder and wickednesse here agaynst M. Iuell bicause he wryteth not one such woord and commonlye agaynst the truth of God which the wicked doe alwaye peruert And this is that marke that God is the author of euill and driueth men to sin What should I here aunswere but euen saye with the Prophet The scornful haue said We haue made falshood our refuge and vnder vanitie we are hid If euerye such euyll saying myght clayme an aunswere M. Hardings one Reioynder would require many volumes But for a sufficient contentation of the Reader I say in all M. Iuels booke there is no one such woord I adde further nor in all the bookes that euer were wrytten by any godly man of M. Iuels profession Let M. Harding or all hys companions in searching ouer theyr wrytings bryng but one letter whereby we may gesse that euer such a saying was ment and for my part let hys writings be approued If he can not doe this consider of hys religion He would not speake wyckedlye for Gods defence nor talke deceitfully for his cause If anye man require what our opinon is let hym reade any learned man intreating of the predestination of God or of mans frée wyll or for a better warrant let him reade the scriptures it selfe We say al that God made was very good He created man in honour and gaue hym frée wyll and man of himselfe gaue place to inordinate affections where hee might haue obeyed Gods woord euen as it is written He hath set water and fire before thée stretch out thy hand vnto which thou wilt And agayne God created man without corruptiō And concerning sinne we say through the enuy of the Deuill came death into the world Neither néede we make exception agaynst this authoritie bicause it is not in the canō For the Apostle doth authorize it where he writeth He that committeth sinne is of the Deuil For the Deuill sinneth euen from the beginning And in an other place Diabolus est mendax pater eius the Deuill is a lyer and the father thereof not as your friende Mayster Dorman doth interprete it and so was hys father before hym for that were in déede to make God the authour of euill which is the marke you talke of Now euen as the Deuill is authour of euil so we by his suggestiō haue the next cause in our selues which is an vncleane hart lyke as our Sauiour saith Out of the hart procéede euil cogitations c. Of God we say and we say againe and we preache it and we wryte and beleue it and in it we reioyce that God is neyther the author of euyll neyther yet would it should be committed The shepe goe astray without the shepherdes wyll The groate is lost and the poore woman would not so Christ woulde gather togither Ierusalem as the Hen doth hir Chickens but they would not But this we say that the wayes of God are not like the wayes of men that he should not know what thynges were to come He could not be deceiued in his own creature He did foresée the fall of Adam and by his omnipotency could haue made him stand For who can resist hys will He coulde haue made him so pure that he should not haue sinned euen as he hath now made his Aungels and wyll make the whole number of his elect that no man anye more shall take awaye theyr ioye from them And as we are sure this is Gods omnipotēcy so why he did it not we cā not assigne any cause but bicause he would not For we knowe he hath done al things that he woulde Yet a cause ther was and that a most iust and good cause For their is no iniquity with him And this cause he did knowe in his eternall secret counsell before all worldes for as much as all thinges are present with him To enter further into Gods councell and aske why he appointed such a course in which the reprobate both Angels and men shoulde fall away this were presumptuous folly Shall the pot say vnto the potter why hast thou made me so The Godly will staye here and in the feare and loue of God wil professe and beleue both that God ruleth all thinges with his mighty worde and yet wylleth he no man to sinne We haue so much corruption in our selues that we néede no further prouoking vnto wickednesse Now to Maister Hardings purpose thus much we saye that God permitteth synne and with longe patience doth suffer the vessels of wrath prepared to destruction but yet this permission we say doth appertayne vnto the will of God For he doth not suffer it eyther inforced or against his will neither yet doth he so suffer it that he doth nothing him selfe For he ruleth and gouerneth euen their iniquity He suffereth it not to rage at will but guideth it either to the punishment of the wicked as he oft punished the Israelites with the wickednes of straunge Princes or to the triall of his elect as it is well acknowledged of the prophet Dauid saying of Shimei he curseth euen bicause the Lord hath bid him curse Dauid yet God made not the malice of Shimeis mynde Likewyse where it is sayde of the destruction of Ierusalem that God brought vpon them the king of the Chaldeans God did not ingraffe in Nabuchadoneyzar his great cruelty but being bred in his own mind he brought it vpon whom it pleased him Therfore Christ saith all the heares of our head are numbred and with out Gods appointment ther shal not one of them perish This therefore is our doctrine God is no cause of wickednesse but men cannot apply their owne wickednesse but where it pleaseth God neither do they exercise their wickednes but when and how far his grace doth leaue them For plainer declaration of this we may compare the grace of God and the sunne If the sunne be ouer
priest will And where their Masse booke biddeth that the priest breake the host in thrée péeces and holde two péeces in his left hand and one in his right the misterie of that deuice is this that one péece I trowe that in the right hande be for them in heauen an other for the liuing the thirde for them in purgatory I graunt this is but a foolishe deuice to fancie any sacrifice for those in heauen yet so it is so they teach Whether maister Harding say Masse as he is commaunded or no that no man I trow knoweth but himselfe his breach of order may be no good proufe of an vntruth The B. of Saris. His second reason is this it is a feast therefore it is common and so he salueth one errour with another Harding The .9 vntruth It is no errour to say it is a feast Dering Maister Hardings worde is no very good warrant therefore it shall not be amisse to sée his reason As a dinner may be a good dinner sayth the Reioinder though the gestes doe not come so this may be a feast though it be not eaten Note good people this is an argument a simili and that you should note it the better Maister Harding hath caused it to be printed in the margine This argument by lyke is verye plausible among them With such an other did mayster Bonner once proue transubstanciation but bicause whatsoeuer that wise man speaketh is not streight way reason I would gladly know of maister Harding this one thing whether that be a good dinner when neyther the gestes come nor yet any good meate is prepared All men knowe that such a banket they make of their Masse There is nothing at all prepaâ—ed but for the priest alone These weake vntruthes would haue well borne some stronger reason The B. of Saris. What if his wil be to work sorcery as it is reported of pope Hildibrand Harding The .10 vntruth This is reported by no true vvryter The B. of Saris. Or what if his will be to poyson some bodye as Henrie the Emperor was poysoned in the Communion bread Pope Victor in the Chalice Harding The .11 and .12 vntruth They dyed othervvise Dering Well may this Reioinder of M. Hardings be called a booke of distinctions this great number of vntruthes .225 wranglings For neyther without a distinction can he defende one iote of his double Religion nor without wrangling argue one vntruth It is reported sayth mayster Iuell of Pope Hildibrand that he was a sorcerer of Henry the Emperour and Pope Victor â—hat they were poisoned in the CoÌ„munion Here commeth our late vntruth maker of Louein M. D. Har. where as nothing is affirmed in his maner of multiplicatioÌ„ he saith there are thrée vntruthes The first of Hildibrand the seconde of Henry the thirde of Victor Concerning the truth of these histories pardon me good reader though I dare say nothing I can not mend that which M. Iuell hath written Reade the defence of the Apologie God for his mercy sake preserue that good Bishop to the accomplishing of many other such labours As touching our present purpose No man I trow but Maister Harding would haue noted any vntruth Maister Iuell doth onely say these histories are reported and so they be as thou thy selfe must néedes confesse What if they be false yet it is the errour of the historie no vntruth in mayster Iuell What if no man defendeth Papistrie but enimies of Gods worde and true religion yet we may say that Papistrie is defended We may say of Gargantua that it is reported Of the Legend of lyes that they are written Of Basils priuate Masse that Amphilochius telleth it and yet is there no controuersie but these are all lyes Then what if it were not y e Pope Gregory were a coniurer yet it is reported yea and thou thy selfe good Christian reader vpon the sight of mayster Iuels booke shall confesse it was so But here I must require of thée a little to consider the vnegall dealing of these english Louanists Maister Harding in his aunswere speaking of Abdias sayth that he sawe Christ in the flesh that bicause it is altogither false maister Iuell noteth it for one vntruth Now commeth maister Stapleton and for the returne of this vntruth he sayth If it be vntrue the fault is in the author that so affirmeth and not in maister Harding And yet maister Harding speaketh this affirmatiuely as though he would auouch it And shall lying Abdias be a sufficient ground for maister Harding to say this is true And shall not so many good wryters be a warrant for maister Iuell to say this is reported Sure maister Hardings owne friends must nedes wish that eyther this had béene vnquoted by himselfe or that other vndefended by maister Stapleton The B. of Saris. Or what if his will be to worke fayned miracles as Lira sayth many are wrought in the open Church to mocke the people Harding The .13 vntruth Lira sayth it not The .14 vntruth He saith not to mocke the people Dering We had euen now thrée vntruthes in one sentence if these were to many in token of some moderation here is one abated and yet such successe hath this vntruthmaker in his collections that euen these two can not stande with his honestie This is maister Iuels allegation Lira sayth many miracles are wrought in the open Church to mocke the people Of these wordes thus doeth Maister Harding gather two vntruthes The first Lira sayth it not The second he sayth not to mocke the people Here would I faine learne of Maister Harding in the first vntruth Lira sayth it not what he meaneth by the worde â–ª it if he doe meane the whole sentence why doth he repeate this peece to mocke the people and so maketh an other vntruth if he meane Lira hath all but this why doth he note the residue for an vntruth If he meane that Lira neuer sayth this nor the other part why doth he not marke mo vntruthes The first as it is one generall Lira sayth it not The other deducted perticularly out of euery word as he saith not there are many He sayth not there are many miracles he saith not they are wrought he sayth not in the open church He saith not to mock so this last he saith not to mock the people This would well haue furthered M. H. number to haue had .vii. in stéed of two sure the sentence hath no priuiledge but that in euery part it may as wel be broken off as in this one But sith it is so M. H. durst not note to many let vs examine these two how good ground they stand on â–ª Lira saith Maister Harding sayth it not He sayth not to mocke the people In these vntruthes my labour shall not be necessary Lira himselfe must be mayster Iuels discharge Reade then the place thus he wryteth Similiter sit in ecclesia maxima deceptio populi in miraculis fictis
victorie Such Hercules buskins he can applie to little leggs and make so great vaunts where himselfe is furthest deceyued The B. of Saris. The name of Masse is seldome or neuer found among the Catholyke fathers Hardyng The .17 vntruth It is often found among the olde writers Dering Note good Reader how this man feareth not to note vntruthes so his number may grow This word is seldom found â—aith Maister Iuell in the catholike fathers it is found often sayth he in olde writers as though who soeuer were auncient he were straite way Catholyke Himselfe hath remoued in the 21. vntruth certaine commentaries of Ierom. And I must certifie thée there be other which notwithstanding their age yet haue no more authoritie than olde Aesopes fables Then notwithstanding Maister Hardings note of olde wryters yet M. Iuels saying of the catholike fathers may be true But I will not vrge Maister Hardings wordes admit he ment no guile in the naming of olde wryters How proueth he this vntruth He bringeth in .ix. fathers and counsels in which this worde Masse is found he sayth he could bring thrée mo that is .xii. in all The olde bookes which are written are almost infinite so in .12000 bookes he can finde that he seeketh for but .12 times yet sayth he it is found often Maister Iuell graunteth it is found somtimes Such vntruthes wil soone shame the controller Now this worde Masse or Missa least it shoulde beguile thée for that it is sometime in catholike fathers I will brieflye declare vnto thée what it is and in what sence it is found That which maister Harding calleth so ofte the Masse as Basils Masse Chrisostomes Masse and Iames his Masse in Gréeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth an open or common function and this signification it hath as well in prophane writers as in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth Aristotle he is occupied in the administration of the commoÌ„ wealth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to execute common offices So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the open worshippinges and seruice of their Gods In like sort it is vsed in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they were openlye preaching and Saint Paule sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I might be an open minister among the Gentiles and this is proued by the Etimologie or true explication of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that hath common businesse in hande Hereby it appeareth that eyther M. Hardings Masse is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so neyther Chrisostome nor Iames nor Basil nor the other Gréeke authors euer sayde or named Masse or if they did the verye worde doth quite ouerthrow the priuate Masse As touching the Latine worde Missa we haue to learne it as the fathers sayde remissa for remissio so also they sayd missa for missio that is a sending away when in the primatiue Church such as were Nouices in christian fayth were sent away from the true beleuers which was before the communion And this appeareth by Saint Augustine where he sayth Ecce post sermonem fit missa cathecumenis manebunt fideles venietur ad locum orationis Beholde after the sermon the Nouices are dimissed the faythfull shall abyde and shall go vnto the communion For so maister Harding doth witnesse that orationis in Saint Augustine doth signifie and in déede in this place it is true Here haue we thrée especiall things to note the craft and subtilitie of Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton who both as it may be well thought vpon conference haue aledged the same places oute of doctors and councels where this worde Misâ—a is found and yet neyther haue mencioned this place of Augustine If they knewe it not they are not of that reading they pretend if they knew it it is to maliciously concealed Secondarily there abode no more in the Church but such as were communicants So this late gazing at a popish Masse was not then in vse Thirdly they did all communicate and then where was priuate Masse So this gorgious shewe to bleare the simple peoples eyes with the antiquitie of this worde Masse is an inuincible argument whereby pryuate Masse doth fall Examine the places that they themselues bring thou canst not wreast any likelihoode of priuate Masse out of them Yet this is moreouer to be noted that within .380 yeares after Christ the worde was neuer named in any probable author whereby it sufficiently appeareth that it was neuer knowne in Christes time nor in his Apostles after him And thus much of this worde Masse The B. of Saris. Clement was very lately found in the yle of Candie by one Carolus Capellius a Venetian written in Greeke and in these Countreis neuer heard of nor seene before Harding The .19 vntruth It hath beene seene before Dering Here Maister Harding committeth thrée great faults the one to charge maister Iuel with an vntruth when he alleageth Peter Crabs authority an other for misconstruing those wordes which are plaine and common the thirde for clipping of Maister Iuels wordes For where he wryteth it was neuer séene in these couÌ„treis Maister Harding quoteth his vntruth it hath beene séene But considering these poore shiftes wherevnto maister Harding is driuen I will graunt these wordes to be maister Iuels that it was neuer séene Who knoweth not that neuer here signifieth of long time or seldom if it had béene neuer séene howe could it haue bene written These grosse gatherings in so fine a wit néedes must sauour of malice It is the phrase of al laÌ„guages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saith Achilles they did neuer wast my fertile fieldes in Pthia yet not many yeres before were great iniuries done by the Troians eueÌ„ in Achilles countrey So Agamemnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 O prophet of harmes thou neuer yet toldest me pleasant things Yet it were much for M. Harding to say Calchas pleased not Agamemnon when he foretolde what tyme Troie should be destroyed In lyke maner sayth Euripides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There was neuer good son of an euill father yet was Ezechias good of wicked Ahaz So in the common prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more auncient than the worlde we meane great continuance We say the same in Latine NunquaÌ„ tam palestricus praetor There was neuer such a wrastling chiefe Iustice meaning very seldome And in our english I neuer sawe such an other But what we meane by it that in déede was neuer doubted of neyther is Maister Harding so simple that he knoweth it not but he had rather speake against his owne knowledge then say nothing against Maister Iuell This is ynough to any indifferent reader to shewe that these vntruthes are but wranglings But read the replie and thou must néedes confesse it were thou neuer so parciall For Maister Iuell himselfe alleageth Leo Gelasius Bessarion which disalow this booke and how could that be if
them shall séeme but wrangling and this new counterfeit Abdias shall be reiected as a teller of dreames and a lying wryter And for our great comfort god will bring to passe that when it shall be knowne to the indifferent reader that Papistrie can not stand without such shamelesse doctors they shall begin to learne that it is a shamelesse doctrine The B. of Saris. Beholde what thinges they be that be written of Maximilla wife to Aegis that she being once christened would no more yeelde dutie to hir husbande but set Euclia hir mayde in hir owne place and other like fables All these and such like tales thus disalowed by S. Augustine are reported by Maister Hardings Abdias in great sooth Harding The .31 vntruth These tales be not reported by Abdias Dering Now is maister Harding come as he sayth to a great and impudent lye and such a one as by no meanes can be excused let the booke saith he be iudge I doe M. Iuell great wrong to write in his cause with so little diligence But for this cause I doe it which I trust I shall well performe that the vnlearned should not be deceiued For the learned be they not of wil blinded Maister Hardings bookes can not hurt them he hath made so vnequal a match Thou séest good reader for the iustifiing of this vntruth whereat are made so great exclamations one should read ouer all Abdias which labor I lothed so as if Amaras porrecto iugulo c. as Horace writeth I should haue stretched â—ut my necke and listened after bitter histories yet when there was no remedie I tooke the booke and in diuerse places read so much I think as amounteth to one whole leafe or more and of that little reading as I can I answere There is named in Augustine one Maximilla such one is named in Abdias she was wife to Aegetes or Aegeas so was Abdias his Maximilla she had a mayd named Iphidamia or Iphidama so sayth Abdias of his Maximilla and hir handmayd Iphidamia sayth Saint Augustine went to go heare S. Andrevv and so did the handmayde in Abdias and of all this I say as M. Harding sayth let the bookes be iudge Nowe reader I must craue thine indifferent iudgement sée whether Augustine and Abdias meane one Maximilla If they do remeÌ„ber Augustine sayth they be impudent lyes and Abdias doth tell them in great sooth But sayth Maister Harding Abdias and August do not write a like of Maximilla Sure it is the more like Abdias is a lier But what if we say Abdias did write whatsoeuer Saint Augustine hath Barre maister Harding of his gesses and he can not confute it Iohn Faber a great fabler of maister Hardings side sayth that this Abdias when he was founde was all reueled and without any fashion full of faultes so that one could neyther read him by vnderstanding nor vnderstand him by reading Then no maruaile if some part of it be perished and the booke be not come wholy vnto our handes though Abdias say not euery whit that is in Augustine When maister Harding can bring any péece of likelihoode how this agréement may be betwéene them and yet they meane not both one then let this go for an vntruth In the meane season consider whereto this shamelesse impudent and notorious lye is fallen whereof he hath made such tragedies and what the other vntruthes be when so great account was made of this This is it that I saide before maister Harding was little beholding vnto Abdias First he could not pleasure him for his small authoritie now he hath shamed him with this vnshamefast defence The B. of Saris. Saint Augustine seemeth in diuerse places to haue giuen his iudgement of this booke Hardyng The .32 vntruth Saint Augustine meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding hath good lyking in his owne doing or this vntruth should not haue bene noted twise For the matter there is inough saide in the former vntruth the argument of the thing doth witnesse of Augustines meaning The. B. of Saris. The like iudgement hereof is giuen by Gelasius Harding The .33 vntruth Gelasius meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding is so iealous ouer his Abdias that in no case he will let him be spoken off The booke be like is so full of lyes that he is sure no man can speake any good of it But how so euer he be affectioned we must thinke of authors no otherwise then we finde them He is not yet Pope and therefore may erre his word is no good witnesse of an other mans meaning Gelasius whome so euer he meaneth certaine it is he may meane Abdias for the worthinesse of the booke And whereas maister Harding for some proufe of his side sayth that he coÌ„demneth certain actes of Martyrs which are thought to be written by infidels Gelasius hath not one such worde But where as maister Harding saith further for the discharge of Abdias that Gelasius speaketh of one Quiricus and Iulita his mother this is a mocking of his reader without all regard of honestie First what kindred was betwéene these two it skilleth not much but Iulita may as well be his daughter as his mother for any thing that Gelasius sayth But let the kindred go maister Hardings reason hangeth thus Gelasius reiecting one hundreth bookes among other nameth the passioÌ„ of Quiricus ergo he reiecteth not Abdias and this is all the reason on which he groundeth this vntruth reade his Reioinder Nowe way on the other side what cause Maister Iuell hath to thinke Gelasius ment Abdias and vpon conference of eyther reason this vntruth shall be very soone answered The second booke that he condemneth is the actes of saint Andrew Abdias doth write the actes of S. Andrew The third is the actes of Philip Abdias wryteth y e actes of Philip. The fourth is the actes of Peter Abdias wryteth the actes of Peter The fift is the actes of Thomas Abdias wryteth the actes of Thomas Beside this he reiecteth the doings of Maximilla and Abdias speaketh of Maximilla Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether Gelasius meaneth of Addias or whether maister Hardings worde and misshapen argument may couÌ„teruaile all these coniectures The B of Saris. Thus it may be supposed by Saint Augustine and Gelasius that this booke was written by heritikes Harding The 34. vntruth A burthen of vntruthes Dering If this be a burthen of vntruthes no doubt the substaunce of them is very little For take away the .32 vntruth that Augustine meaneth not Abdias and the .33 vntruth that Gelasius meaneth not Abdias and except Eubulus come that saw Christ helpe Basil to Masse all this burthen of vntruthes is like to be vndone As touching the vntruthes there is inough saide already Whether they ment of Abdias it appeareth that maister Harding is to blind a iudge to gesse so boldly the contrary Here I must put thée once againe in minde of the numbring of these vntruthes First Saint
Augustine speaketh not of Saint Mathew the .2 nor of Saint Andrew the .3 nor of Abdias his Maximilla the .4 nor of Abdias the .5 nor Gelasius speaketh of Abdias the .6 nor they two speak of Abdias Thus the whole being ioyned is but one true proposition yet out of it after his maner of cutting maister Harding hath carued .6 lies And thus much of lying Abdias The B. of Saris. Martial was so defaced in many places that it could not be reade Harding The .35 vntruth It could be read else hovv coulde it be printed Dering By gesse Why should not the printer haue as much liberty in printing this little olde booke as maister Harding vseth for proufe of his whole religion The Printer himselfe sayth prae nimia vetustate vix legi potuerunt for estreame age they could scarce be read Nowe where as maister Harding doth aske how then could they be printed I aske of him how Abdias was printed For of him his sorbonist Doctor wryteth he could neyther be read nor vnderstand An other might much better haue moued this doubt then maister Harding He is not now to learne what gesses may doe But howe soeuer he was printed sure this vntruth was not worth noting The B. of Saris. It is iudged by Iohn Colet and other graue men that Dionysius can not be that Areopagita Saint Paules disciple which is mencioned in the Actes Harding The .36 vntruth It is not iudged so by Iohn Colet The .37 vntruth They are no graue men that so iudge Dering These vntruthes can not be good that are made so fast nor yet so many as the maker would haue them when one is told so many tymes If this were vntrue that maister Iuell writeth yet were it not two vntruthes but one But bicause there is no remedie we will take them euen as they fall out As touching the former of these two it néedeth no aunswere Maister Harding doth not denie it but that Iohn Colet hath both spoken it and preached it then what skilleth it whether it be written his preaching is a witnes of his opinion though maister Harding say nay For this other vntruth that such other as deny this Dionysius to be the true Areopagita are no graue men he is sure no graue man that hath noted it I may aunswere this with the wordes of Saint Paule horum laus non ex hominibus sed ex deo these mens prayses are not of men but of God Maister Harding should not for his modesty sake haue noted it for an vntruth to call the godly fathers of our age graue men His belligods Popes Cardnals Friers Monkes Priestes others of that kenâ—ll haue not so much laboured in searching out the truth in fiue hundred yeares as these other haue done in fiftie But God hath giuen the increase his name be praysed for euer As touching this Dionysius whether we haue his workes or no it is a thing soone iudged How vnlike is it that the conuersion of Dionysius should be mencioned by Saint Luke in the actes of the Apostles yet he him selfe would not mencion it once in al his workes or if this might be yet what may we thinke of that that in all his booke he doth neuer so much as once name Paule May it yet be doubted whether he be that Dionysius which Paule conuerted Besides this S. Ierom making purposely a rehearsall of all ecclesiasticall wryters speaketh not one worde of this Dionysius Other auncient fathers doe neuer alleage him his owne bookes are so strauÌ„ge fansies of many secrete misteries that sure it is he is not the true Areopagita The. B. of Saris. Saint Iames Liturgie hath an especiall prayer for them that liue in Monasteries and yet it was â—erie rare to haue Monasteries built in all Saint Iames time Harding The .38 vntruth There is no mention of such Monasteries as we commonly meane when we speake of Monasteries Dering As be for Monasteries as Monasteries are to speake of the things themselues as they are in déede so to say of Monasteries as they be considered in this meaning of Monasteries so Monasteries and so forth a man should go farre that shoulde follow Maister Hardings wrangling The B. of Saris. Chrysostomes Liturgie prayeth for Pope Nicolas by these wordes Nicolai sanctiss vniuersalis Papae longa sint teÌ„pora We pray God sende Nicolas that most holy and vniuersall Pope a long time to liue But Pope Nicolas the first of that name was the seconde Pope after dame Ione the woman Pope Harding The .39 vntruth He prayth not for Pope Nicolas of Rome The .40 vntr There was no such woman pope Dering Nowe Maister Harding after he hath giuen so many offers and maketh neuer a wound he directeth his engines quite contrarie and assayeth if that he can giue the Pope a blowe Pope Nicolas sayth Chrysostome that most sacred and vniuersall Pope That is no good proufe sayth Maister Harding that he meaneth the bishop of Rome Here is a full subscription to the .4 article The authorities alleaged for the Popes supremacie are quite ouerthrowne to be called vniuersall bishop is no proufe of his supremacie Had Maister Harding wel considered it this vntruth had bene quoted some other where but doubting that this be not aunswere good ynough he letteth it go and graunting it to be sayde of Pope Nicolas therevpon he asketh this question If Chrysostome might not pray for Pope Nicolas how is the death of Moyses described in the bookes of the lawe There is no man sayth he so hardie to denie that Moyses wrote these bookes Be not afrayd good reader of these big words nor of M â–ª Har. daring All this is soone aunswered Either Eleazar or Iosue wroâ—e the .34 Chap. of Deuter. And they might well write of Moyses his death Or if Moyses wrote it he knew it by reuelation For so he himselfe wryteth The lorde hath saide vnto mée thou shalt not go ouer this Iordane Sure of a doctor of diuinitie this was a very simple question If he can shewe any such reuelation that Chrysostome haâ— of Pope Nicolas then let this be Chrysostomes Masse The .40 vntruth is concerning pope Ione who neuer did the sea of Rome more dishonesty then she hath stoode maister Harding in good stéed For both she helpeth out his Reioinder with vntruthes and maketh a great péece of his confutation of the Apologie But saith maister Harding there was no such woman Pope What skilleth it to this present matter whether there were such a Pope or no. A filthie Strumpet is good ynough for such a whoorish kingdome If there were such a one Pope Nicolas was seconde after hir Whether there were or no my profes are néedelesse my lord of Sarisburie hath resolued vs in that behalfe The B. of Saris. Now it were much for me to say that Chrysostome prayed for men by name 700. yeares before they were borne Harding The .41 vntruth I say
part of Christes institution Harding The .70 vntruth This is not my argument Dering Here Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton doe not well accorde For Maister Harding skippeth one vntruth concerning the number of communicants Replie fo 20. diuis 3. which maister Stapleton maketh the .22 vntruth And least we should thinke it little worth he maketh the same againe the .23 vntruth and for a full conclusion shutteth also the .24 vntruth in it Yea and though it stand here for .3 vntruthes yet as if al they were not sufficient he made it once afore the .19 vntruth So much maister Stapleton maketh of one vntruth which maister Harding accounteth not worth numbring But the matter is not great he loseth nothing here that he will not finde in an other place As touching this vntruth these are M. Hardings verie wordes Concerning the number of communicants in one place that they iangle so much of it is no part of Christes institution For Christ ordeined the sacrament after consecration c. Nowe turne these wordes in forme of argument and they stand euen as maister Iuel placeth them Christ did ordeine the sacrament after consecration c. ergo the number of communicants is no part of Christes institution If these be Maister Hardings owne wordes as sée the booke and thou thy selfe shalt iudge thou canst not be so simple but thou must néedes sée this argument is no worse than himselfe hath made it But bicause in this place he also fashioneth one and in great confidence of his owne cunning writeth in the Margent of his booke an argument proponed to M. Iuell to be considered I will doe him no wrong in chaunging his woords but for that loue which I haue to M. Iuels profession in his behalfe I will as I can consider of it after his owne making But first I must aduertise thée before he setteth vp his mishapen building he layeth the foundation of an ill fauored stomacke and saith by M. Iuel that it is easie for a scoffer to scoffe at arguments framed of his owne scoffing head And so it is easie for an euill speaker in defence of his wicked Doctrine to reporte vnchristianly of Gods minister where suche vnquiet passions do leade away vnderstanding It may be he may finde fauorers but where the God of peace hath engraffed more moderation truthe shall not be preiudiced with suche vntrue behauior Muche other frothe ensueth in great plentie before we come to the proposed reason euen as a rotten wound defileth many clothes that are about it but let it be troden out with silence that cannot be remembred without muche loth somnesse At the last he commeth to his argument after his owne graue considerations thus it is fourmed What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution The number of Communicants in one place is beside these thrée Ergo the number in one place is no parte of Christes institution Of this argument M. Harding boasteth much and in any case will haue M. Iuel yelde vnto the Conclusion But softe M. Harding extorcion is no conclusion If you will enforce a graunt whether it be made or no you can by that be neuer the neare your purpose Therefore for as muche as you haue set forthe your argument as you say to be considered you séeme very vnconstant so soone againe to claime the concâ—usion But you sâ—y if we wil not yelde vnto the reason we must denie the Minor or second proposition True it is the Minor is false but we are not yet come at it The Maior that you thinke so sure is made of false and vnlawfull stuffing as by this consideration that you require shall well appeare The proposition is this What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution first this is false and teacheth wicked doctrine For preaching out of the Lords death vntill he come is a parte of Christes institution And our sauiour biddeth do this in the remembraunce of me that is with due celebration of all my benefits bestowed vpon mankind which must then be preached vnto the people And if it be not so done then Christes institution notw tstanding M. Hardings argument is flatly broken Nowe as this preaching out the Lords death is of Christes institution and yet not rehersed in this first proposition wherby this prosition is shewed false so those other things which are rehersed in it as M. Harding meaneth them are none of them of Christes institution By coÌ„secration he meaneth the pronouÌ„cing of these words this is my body which must be done as y e Masse boke straightly chargeth bothe secretely and with one breath By oblation he meaneth Christes reall body to be offred vp vnto the father By Participation he meaneth that the priest alone may take it at the Altare and no one of these is of Christes institution Nay they all are contrary vnto it So that this proposition wheron he groundeth his argumeÌ„t wanteth somewhat and therefore is not true that which it hath is altogether corrupt and therefore it containeth muche pernicious doctrine First as touching Consecration S. Augustine saith as is alleaged in the .56 vntruth y â— it is wrought verbo fidei by the worde of faith which we preache So saithe Iustinus martir that it is sanctified per verbum precationis gratiarum actionis by the word of prayer and thankes giuing Irenaeus saith quando mixtus calix fractus panis percipit verbum Dei fit Eucharistia corporis sanguinis Christi when the cuppe mingled with wine and water and the bread being broken hath the preaching of the woord of God ioyned vnto it then it is the Eucharist and this was the only Consecration .200 yeres after Christ neither any where any other mentioned except in M. Hardings Decretal Epistles which neither are of credite nor yet teach good religion This same maner of Consecration is taught vs by Cyprian Dyonisius Alexandrinus Ambrose Augustine and suche other as liued within the first .600 yeares after Christ. Although I graunt as appeareth by diuers recordes many solemnities of the Masse were farre spread through superstition yet this exacte kinde of close Consecration is muche yonger This Oblation likewise as it was then vnknowne so now it is of all Christians to be detested that a mortall man should offer vp the immortall God as I haue already shewed in the Epistle For Participation bicause maister Harding can not proue his Priuate Masse within the sixe hundreth yeares and the woord doeth enforce that it is no Participation except there be a number to take their partes I thinke it appeareth sufficiently that in a Popishe Masse they haue no manner Participation or Communion so we sée this Maior is all together false before we come at the Minor Now if we will further examine the Minor we shall finde it false also altogither without salte or sauor for thus it is in effecte
their hearts and giue them vnderstanding that they may once know and confesse that his Religion may not thus be framed to mannes fansie so in the latter day when they shall be accomptable for their doings they may be vnblameable in the sight of the highest The B. of Saris. He saith Communion is so called of that we Communicate togither Harding The .79 vntruthe He saith not together Dering It is a very strange propertie not to be ashamed to speake manifestly against the knowne signification of any worde it is muche more straunge to speake against it placed in suche a sentence where of force the signification must be graunted but it is moste straunge of all and in manner a singulare impudencie to note it for any vntruthe in one that will not so shamelesly speake without reason as an other dothe Such an vntruthe as this is it which now we haue in hand 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is well knowne to signifie to Communicate together in the same time and place And in this sentence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Héere to say it can signifie any other thing it is very ignorant boldenesse But to note it for an vntruthe as maister Harding dothe it is bothe to be past shame and past grace The worde is well knowne that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie a cōmunitie of any thing together and therefore they be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which may haue felowship with the Congregation and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be in felowship with any man And bicause that Mercurie is sayd to be the messenger of the Pagane goddes to tell their errandes from them to any man therefore he is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hauing a proper name of his proper office in that by him the Ethnikes did thinke they were made partakers of their gods counsell by which the propertie of this worde appeareth And consider good Reader what manner of Communion it is that M. Harding would make when the Priest saith Masse in the Church and calleth no body vnto him yet he sayth that al the Priestes in the world which say Masse at the same time doe Communicate with him and be made one body of Christe togither Héere I aske of M. Harding how he agréeth with S. Paule y t saith we are one bread one body bicause we all are partakers of one bread Marke reader because we eate of one bread we become one body saith S. Paule Bicause we say Masse at one time we become one body saith M. Harding though we eate not at all of the same breade Sure these two Doctoures doe not agrée S. Paule saith moreouer the bread which we break is it not the Cōmunion of the body of Christ M. Harding saith though we breake not the same bread but be eche one of vs by our selues at our altares yet it is the Communion of the body of Christ. Thus we sée S. Paule and M. Harding teache not bothe one Doctrine But it is no meruaile they are not guided bothe with one spirit S. Paule speaketh truthe and M. Harding falshead S. Paule the worde of God and master Harding his owne fansies as for this Communion of M. Hardings it was neuer knowne in the Church of God I remember there is a great bragger in Martial maketh euen suche an other he had euer in his mouth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 All things are common among frendes but saying thus so often when he would neuer bestow any thing among his neighbors the Poet saith this is a very straunge Communion Das nihil dicis Candide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So it goeth with M. Harding he euer saith of his Masse it is common it is common but he saith it only he calleth no man vnto him Sure say what he will this is but craking Candidus his Communion God be praised that we are deliuered from it And thus it appeareth it is no vntruthe to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to Communicate together ▪ as well bicause the worde it selfe is plaine as for that the scripture teacheth that the Communion must be so administred The B. of Saris. Basil reporteth an Ecclesiasticall Decree or Canon that at the receiuing of the holy Communion which he called mysticum Pascha there ought to be .xij. persones at the least and neuer vnder Harding The .80 vntruthe It is no Ecclesiasticall decree Dering M. Harding in this place is farre gone He is wont to controll very curiously false quotation in this place onlesse my boke deceiue me he is much ouerséene For I think it is in asceticis sermone primo Whether it bewell quoted or no it is truely reported S. Basils words are these Quemadmodum spiritualis lex non vult eos esse infra numerum duodenarium qui mysticum pascha edere debeant c. Euen as the spirituall or Ecclesiasticall decrée will not haue vnder twelue that shuld eate the mysticall passeouer c. Loe. S. Basil sayth it is an Ecclesiasticall Decrée Yet M. Harding saith it is no Decrée Beleue him not henceforth before thou trie him And the Doctors words wer as sone changed as he is redy to deny or affirme at aduentures thou couldest be sure of nothing but it is well the truthe doth not hang vpon his report Let him say while he will it is no decrée S. Basils wordes are plaine it is spiritualis lex If M. Harding had not made wrangling his hope in these vntruthes this had not bene numbred He may as well blame the Euangelistes for alleaging the Prophets And no doubt if M. Iuell should follow the faithfull sense as the Euangelists doe and let passe words Maister Harding would finde fiue lies in one line Such truthe he vseth in these vntruthes The B. of Saris◠It appeareth by S. Augustine and certaine olde Canons that in the Primatiue church the Priest and people sometime did Communicate after supper Harding The .81 vntruthe The .11 diuision It appeareth not Dering This vntruthe is sone answered For M. Harding graunteth that it appeareth by s. Augustine some receiued on Maūdie thursday after supper but saith he that is not sometime For saith he he that saith somtime meaneth oftner than once a yeare Now if it were possible that once a yeare might be sometime then were it necessary that M. Harding did wrangle But bicause once a yeare is no time let vs sée if it may be proued that it was done oftner First whether it be or no S. Augustine is at a point and saith faciat quisque quod in ea Ecclesia in quam venerit inuenit Let euery one doe after the custome of that Church in which he cōmeth it appertaineth neither vnto faith nor vnto good maners therefore whether a man receiue the Cōmunion fasting or no so he receiue in the Lord it skilleth not muche Now what they haue done in the primatiue Church let vs as I haue said enquire It appereth in
not the sacrifice of the crosse the daily sacrifice Here vpon better aduise he reuoketh his absolute assertion and doeth qualifie it with maister Iuels meaning So if maister Harding doe not truely gather maister Iuels meaning vpon a false surmise he hathe made two vntruthes But bicause we are come againe to mention of this Sacrifice I will shew thée what is our Sacrifice for the purging of our sinnes First for thy better instruction thou must learne wherein standeth the controuersie betwixt the Papists and vs. They say they doe daily in their Masse offer vp Christ vnto his father a propitiation for our sinnes We say that Christ hath purged vs from our sinnes and that with the Sacrifice of his owne precious bodie and bloud but that sacrifice Christ himself did once make vpon the Crosse neither can any mortall man offer him any more Now if we can shewe that Christes reall body is no more offered vnto his father then is not only this no vntruthe but all maister Hardings religion is deuelishe and wicked Let vs sée then what the scriptures doe teache vs vntill the time that our sauior Christ did die This Sacrifice is often mentioned that it should be made when he had once died it is neuer mentioned but as already done Before he was conceiued in his mothers wombe the angell said his name should be Iesus For he should saue his people from their sinnes When he was born he was called the saluation which God had prepared before the face of all people When he was Christened Iohn said of him beholde the Lambe of God which taketh away the sinnes of the worlde The Lambe in this place after the Hebrue phrase dothe signifie the sacrifice or the offering And Christ him selfe When I shall be exalted I will draw all vnto my selfe By these and all those other places which are of the Passion of Christ it is manifest that the time was appointed when this sacrifice should be once made But when this sacrifice was done Christ said vpon the crosse consummatum est all was finished and in token that there was no more sacrifice to be made for sinne the baile of the temple did rende from the toppe to the foote Nowe after this sacrifice once finished not one title in the whole scriptures of any propiciatorie sacrifice to come but vpon this one and once made repentaunce must be preached to all the world and forgiuenesse of sinne with this promise annexed that whosoeuer doeth beleue and is Baptised shall be saued Thus we sée from the beginning of our iourney vntill we come to the place which our sauior hath prepared for vs in heauen we haue no sacrifice to passe by but that alone which Christ made vpon the Crosse that alone is called daily bicause it is an euerlasting intercession for vs vnto his father What soeuer Sacrifices the papacie hath inuented they are beside this and they are nothing else but snares which the Deuill hathe laid to entrappe our soules and call vs from the only trust in Christes merites An other proofe that the sacrifice of the Crosse may onely be called daily is well declared in all the wrytings of the Apostles where no one time either priest or altare or sacrifice or oblation is mentioned but onely in a spirituall vnderstanding You be made a spiritual house a holy priesthode to offer vp spirituall sacrifice vnto God saith S. Peter He hathe made vs kings and priestes vnto God euen his Father saith S. Ihon and S. Paule doeth call our bodies a liuing sacrifice holy and acceptable vnto God And againe Christ our passeouer is Sacrificed for vs therefore let vs kéepe the feast not with olde leauen neither in the leauen of malitiousnesse or wickednesse but with the vnleauened bread of sinceritie and truthe And to the Hebrues we haue an altare of which it is not lawfull for them to eate that serue in the tabernacle And againe let vs offer the sacrifice of praise alwayes vnto God that is the fruite of our lippes which confesse his name In diuers other places bothe by the prophets and apostles we be taught that these are the onely Sacrifices left vnto vs in the Newe Testament Then what desperate boldnesse is it for vs to make our selues new sacrifices without the worde of God the instruction of the holy Ghost or any coloure of sufficient aucthoritie I néede not adde how it fighteth directly with the Scriptures They say the priest doeth offer vppe Christ. But Christ neuer saith he is offred vp by any other but by himselfe I doe sanctifie my selfe for them and I doe giue my life for my shéepe And againe I doe giue my life and againe I will take it no man dothe take it from me but I will giue it of mine owne will And Paule saith he that loued me and gaue himselfe for me And to the Hebrues in the beginning of this booke it is written of me that I shold do thy wil O God this same is often shewed in the .5.9 and .10 Chapters to the Hebrues but in al the scripture not one word that euer Christ is offred by other They say he is offred daily but in all the scriptures he is said to be offred but once In that he died saith Paule he died once and to the Hebrues with one oblation he made them perfect for euer And in the same Epistle the vij Chapter Christ is said to be suche a priest as néeded not to make moe sacrifices for sinnes or offer himselfe daily For he did once sanctifie vs. And againe by his owne bloud he entred once into the holy place And againe in the ende of the world he appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrifice of himselfe And againe Christ hath once suffred to take away sinnes And againe hauing made one Sacrifice for sinne he sittes for euer at the right hand of his father And in conclusion the scripture taketh away all other sacrifice and saithe where remission of sinne is there is no more Oblation for sinne Yet wil they néedes haue a daily sacrifice What a miserable religion is that which in matters of the greatest waight hath not one word to vphold it in the scriptures But as the thing it selfe is the sinke of Idolatrie so marke it wel and thou shalt sée how wickedly they vse it Our sacrifice say they is the applying of that sacrifice which Christ made vpon the crosse And hereupon M. Harding doth often say that no Masse is priuate bicause it is made for all the people but examine this by the worde of God and sée how it agreeth The scripture saith the benefites purchased by Christes sacrifice is offred vnto vs by the worde not by the Masse You are borne a newe by the worde of God who liueth and indureth for euer And we haue felowship with God with his sonne Iesus Christ by the worde which is declared
dominicum vntill the next sunday Then of like they receiued euery sunday This argumeÌ„t saith M. Harding is slender a learned man will be ashamed of it And he answereth it with an other argument if thou wilt haue a paterne of a good one marke it well The wordes are saith he quando communicat when she dothe communicate Ergo she did not communicate euery sunday He that will reprehend M. Iuels argument it is reason himself should haue made a better By suche reasons we may conclude what we wil. When she did communicate therfore she did it not euery sunday Then when we go to dinner we sit downe Therfore we goe not to dinner euery day Suche prooues may be soone made Biside this M. Harding chalengeth the translation but that is not worthe answering Alias is commonly vsed for the next fallacia alia aliam trudit Nos alia ex alijs in fata vocamur Aliud ex alio malum Ex alio in aliud vicissitudo And if we say in Englishe we must tary for another terme euery wise man doth vnderstand it we must tary til the next terme Thus hear appeareth no insufficiencie in M. Iuels proofe but muche folowing M. Hardings vntruthe The B. of Saris. Likewise Socrates writeth thus in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say to haue a congregation or assembly by theÌ„selues Harding The .168 There are no suche words in that place in Socrates Dering False quotation needeth no great excuse The B. of Saris. Let Missa be taken for the Masse that is for the ministration of the Sacraments Harding The .169 It doth not signify the ministration of the sacrameÌ„ts Dering Betwéene M. Stapleton and M. Harding maister Iuel can say nothing without blame The sixth vntruthe noted by maister Iuel out of maister Hardings answer is this S. Andrew said the Communion and not the Masse In the returne of this vntruth saith maister Stapleton you speake fondly the Masse and the Communion is al one Héere saith maister Iuel let the Masse be taken for the Communion That is an vntruthe saith maister Harding it can not be so taken Thus we sée these men are at a point speake maister Iuel what he wil so long as he speaketh truthe he shall not escape blame Whether Missa may signifie the Communion or no. Reade more in the .17 vntruthe The B. of Sarisb Verily it is prouided by the decree it selfe that in priuate Chappels there should be a lawfull and an ordnarie company Harding The .170 vntruthe It was not prouided Dering To make this vntruthe perfect M. Harding hath bound it with a double asseueration verily verily this is a false lie But surely surely there is little honesty to vse so muche wrangling where the matter it selfe is plaine The words of the decrée are these vt ibi missas teneat propter fatigationem familiae iusta ordinatione permittimus we permit that in due order for the wearinesse of his housholde he may haue Masse in his priuate Oratorie Now though maister Harding goe not the right way to proue his priuate Masse that goeth to séeke it out in priuate chappels yet let vs way well what this permission is The decrée saith iusta ordinatione or iusto ordine so without due order it might not be not in priuate Oratories and to haue it with order was to haue a number of Communicantes So this permission yet makes no priuate Masse Againe the decrée saith propter fatigatiouem familiae for the wearinesse of the housholde whereby it appeareth the householde must communicate For if they should not haue gon to church how should they haue ben werie of going theÌ„ was there not yet priuate Masse Thirdly it was graâ—â—ted in those parishes in which beside that householde there was legittimus ordinariusque conuentus in which there was beside a sufficient companie What neded this exception if the Priest might haue sayd Masse receiued aâ—one Litle companie will serue to make one communicate Thus we sée Maister Harding doeth no where speake more aduisedly than where he maketh most constant asseueration The B. of Saris. Vincentius writeth after Gregorius was dead Bonifacius ruled the church of Rome This Boniface obtained of the Emperour Phocas that the church of Rome should be the head of all churches and that bicause the church of Constantinople wrote it selfe by that title The next yeare after that Augustine that was called the English mens bishop died The yeare folowing Iohn the Almonar was in great fame at which time also Mahomet first spred his religion in Arabia Harding The .171 vntruth Vincentius vvriteth not so Dering If thou knowest not what wrangling is now learne Maister Harding findeth here diuerse faults The first that Bonifacius was not next Gregorie and true I think it be Sauinianus was one yere betwene and what skilleth that to priuate Masse Or why should Maister Iuel of purpose speake here vntruly It is very probable he might forget the order of the Popes that was so occupied to set out Gods religion This was not worth the noting Another fault is where Vincentius saith Augustine the firstâ— English Bishop Maister Iuel saith thus Augustine that was called the English bishop What contention aboute words is this â–ª Another fault is bi cause he alleageth not one sentâ—nce where Vincentius doeth commend the Almonars libâ—ralitie Except Maister Iuell would haue filled his booke with idle words this was nothing necessarie He searcheth 〈…〉 what I killeth it then to alleage hiâ— coâ—â—â—â—dations We reade in Plato that a 〈…〉 was euer wonâ— to make suche aâ—nswerâ—s â–ª when Cherephon asketh Polus what science Gorgias professeth Polus always is vp with a speciall commendation of it and neuer tels what it is But Socrates sayd that was nothing to the purpose there was no man dispraised it so what helpeth it when we aske of the Almonars age to alleage Vincentius commendation of him No man disprayseth him we séeke for his age we enquire not of his qualities lette the man alone The fourthe faulte is that he parteth this saying What tyme Mahomet spred his religion in Arabia in the distincte letter of the Doctours allegations This doyng helpeth Maister Iuell neuer a whit For if it be true what skilleth it who sayth it Againe if the Printer make not his letters well Maister Iuell is not to blame Here are foure faulteâ— founde without salte or â—auoure yet there is an other and that is that aboute this time Mahomet spred not his religion For he beganne sayth Maister Harding in the latter time of Heraclitus the Emperour Maister Harding is verie supersticious in computation of times or this would séeme to bée a verie â—ender 〈◊〉 Phocas began his raigne in the yeare of our Lord .604 three yeares after that Bonifacius was made Pope â–ª 607. it was foure yeares after that Iohn the Almonar shoulde saye this Masse Anno .610 within .xix. yeareâ— after in the ninetene yeare of Heraclitus
his priuate Masse hath sought for Iohn Almonar in a priuate Chapple but the question is moued of the open church This Iohn Almonar liued at the least .610 yeares after Christ. The question is of .600 yeares onely So this fable may be well reiected both for that it is nothing to the purpose and if it were yet it is without the compasse of .600 yeares Yet Maister Iuel admitting the proofe doeth proue that it is a verie fable His reason is bicause no man might saye Masse at home Here let vs make the best of Maister Hardings aunswere and it is thus They might not say Masse in theyr houses but they might say them in their Chappels This aunswere is very absurde For who would say masse in his parlour or hall or kitchin hauing a Chapple And it is knowne to be false and taken away by Gracian saying Vnicuique fidelium in domo sua oratorium habere licet et ibi orare missas autem ibi concelebrare non licet euery man may haue a Chapple in his house pray there but he may not haue Masse in it Thus appeareth how vaine Maister Hardings exception is against these former authorities for that they haue in Domibus in their houses when Gracian alleaging the councell of Auleria vseth this word oratorium a Chaple notwithstanding Maister Harding concludeth thus we must seeke for better stuffe this is nothing worth so much securitie haue these men promised them selues that whatsoeuer they speake they think it shalbe beleued The B. of â–ª Saris. Maister Harding translateth falsâ—ly cum benedixisset sancta â–ª when he had consecrate the Sacrament Likewise post finem orationum after the prayer of consecration Harding The .177 vntruthe That translation is true The .178 vntruthe That translation is true Dering Now that this Apostata hath vomited vp a litle poisoned affection against the blessed bishop of Sarisburie he is laide downe againe like a swine to wallow in his former mire and as blinde bayard running forth he knoweth not whether quoteth mo vntruthes of his owne making My translation saith he is true His reasoÌ„ is this some doctors doe expounde benedicere for consecrare therefore that is so And the Grecians said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis therfore sancta is the Sacrament If Maister Harding that in his long epistle would so faine haue ben Appelles could with all his cunning picture out these argumentes we should haue the right shape of a fooles bable Benedicere saith he is construed of S. Ambrose by consecrare ergo it is so But it is construed otherwise by the Euangelists therefore it is not so Where S. Mathew and S. Marke say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had blessed he brake S. Luke and S. Paule say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thankes he brake Yea bothe Mathewe and Marke them selues say of the cuppe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thanks he gaue it Then if Benedixit be he did consecrate then Gratias egit is also he did consecrate and so the .180 vntruthe is verified that master Harding calleth some things that are not as if they were And I would faine know why maister Harding cleaueth so to this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it maketh nothing for his transubstantiation It is written in the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God blessed the seuenth day yet he turned not the nature of it So God speaketh vnto Abraham 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Surely in blessing I will blesse thée yet God vsed no manner of consecration so saith S. Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who hath blessed vs in all manner of spirituall blessing In diuers other places of holy scripture thisword is vsed yet no where for this straunge manner of transubstantiation or other consecration than which we say in Latine consecrare which is to giue vp to ordaine to appoynt to an holy vse though it may be well said of the sacrament yet it is not in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so that why he should translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to consecrate there is no cause except suche cause as will haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie nothing But saithe maister Harding some Doctors haue translated Benedicere by Consecrare Let vs graunt it suche is the libertie of speache that some worde is vsed in an impropre signification Dothe it folow bicause Benedicere may be to consecrate therfore Benedicere sancta is to consecrate the sacrament This gathering is very childishe Extruo is to builde vp Therfore is extruere mensam to build or make a table Interpello is to disturbe or interrupt therefore is interpellare debitoreÌ„ to interrupt or disturbe your debtour Expendere is to consider therfore is expendere poenas to consider punishment Sure this is a very idle proofe though Benedicere were to consecrate and sancta were the sacrament But now it is shewed that Benedicere is not to consecrate and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not the sacrament as Maister Iuel sheweth out of Chrysostome And in da de what reason is it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis should be the sacrament not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctorum should be likewise the sacrament Now for as muche as maister Harding cleaueth so vnto the Doctors that what so euer they say he straight taketh it for an Oracle we may say vnto him as our Sauior said vnto the Iewes Euen Moses in whome you trust shall be a witnesse against you so the Doctors shall be witnesses against master Harding and his felowes that when the Doctors do require to be iudged by the scriptures yet they without scriptures will ground their faith vpon them Cursed be he saith the Prophet that trusteth in man and maketh fleshe to be his arme For my parte I reuerence the Doctors and praise God for them they were good stewards and dispensed faithfully the goodes that were committed vnto them they were men of excellent learning great diligence and godly life and haue sufficiently confuted maister Hardings religion but yet they were men and had all their erroures Tertullian sayd God had a body and therefore he was reprehended of Augustine He thought not well in all poyntes of our sauioure Christe as appeareth in his bookes de Trinitate and aduersus Hermogenem Praxeam where he teacheth that Christe is a portion of his father Origen in diuers places wryteth very wickedly as appeareth by Epiphanius annumbring him among heretikes Cyprian sayde that Christe did satisfie onely for Originall sinne Methodius sayd we are iustified by fulfilling the lawe of nature as Epiphanius reporteth These were wicked heresies The doctors that folowed after had also many and great faultes I néede not recken maister Hardings Doctors Clemens Abdias Martialis Dyonisius Hyppolitus and suche other
no partie which way so euer you interprete them declareth a great want of good matter to proue the thing it selfe which lieth in controuersie If these woords be not in the same place yet the very allegation of the gréeke text is a sufficieÌ„t proofe they are found in the author And therefore if false quoting the place be the greatest fault let it go for me it is not worthy no answere The B. of Saris. It was forbidden by many decrees to mynister the sacrament in priuate houses Harding The .185 vntruthe It was not forbidden Dering Untruthes may wel grow in number where one may be reckened so many times Read the .176 vntruthe The B. of Saris. M. Harding hath violently and of purpose falsified the traÌ„slation Harding The .186 vntruthe My translation is true Dering Tell on in a circle M. Harding and then your vntruthes shall neuer haue end Read the .177 vntruthe The B. of Saris. The life of S. Basil hath bene set for the fully and faithfully by Gregorie Nissene Gregorie Nazianzene Gregorie Presbyter Socrates Theodoretus Sozomenus and Nicephorus Harding The .187 vntruthe His life is not set out fully by them Dering God be mercifull vnto vs and when his good will and pleasure is deliuer vs from such wranglers Is not a mannes life set out fully when it is shewed what he hath done openly in the congregation How he hath remoued from place to place What doctrine he hath taught What diligence he hathe vsed What trouble he hathe suffred What enimies he hath had Whose companie he hath frequented What learning he hath studied What promotion he hath gotten How many yeares he hath liued And what euer else he hathe from time to time openly done or suffred All this is declared onely by Gregorie Nazianzene in his Monodia in his Oration De laudibus Basilij and in sundry his Epistles so that what soeuer maister Iuel saith he alone hath done it and that he ment so to doe it is plaine inough for as much as he entituleth his booke De vita Basilij and yet though Nazianzene had not done so muche but all these among them had written this so fully maister Iuels woords had bene true So there is nothing héere to be said for maister Harding but either he wrangleth or misse vnderstandeth The B. of Saris. None of them was so impudent once to make any mention of this pieuishe tale of M. Hardings Masse Harding The .188 vntruthe Vincentius maketh mention of it Dering Reade this tale of Amphilochius Vincentius his words and thou maist hardly think that Vincentius being so full of olde wiues fables as he is would so lightly haue passed ouer this wonderous matter of S. Basill Maister Harding him selfe who is much more temperate in such maner of miracles than Vincentius is by no meanes could let it passe without much practise of his eloqueÌ„ce By this it may be thought that Vincentius neuer knew it or if he knew it he was ashamed to write it being so manifest a lie least he should haue discredited his whole fardle of newes Thus much yet he saith that may sound toward it that God did teach Basil in a vision to offer vp sacrifice with his owne words And vpon this saying Maister Harding aduentureth the quoting of his vntruth To discharge this it were vnnecessarie labour considering the tale is so foolish yet for Amphilochius and Vincentius sakes that one of them may be founde a lier I will a little lay these authors togither Amphilochius saith the next daye after this Masse was done Basil made a golden doue to hang ouer the altar and he put the third part of the host into it Vincentius sayth Basil being at that miraculous Masse Columba aurea quae cum sacramento domini super altare pendebat c. the golden pigeon which did hang ouer the altar with the sacrament of the Lord did not moue thrée times as it was wont to doe c. Bicause a certaine deacon was talking with a womaÌ„ Héere we sée Amphilochius saith the pigeon was made the next day Vincentius saith if hong long before ouer the altar And that the tale may haue one 〈◊〉 of Vincentius office he saith at euerie sataring the pigeon was wont to moue thrice Againe Amphilochius saith there was no bodie but Eubulus that looked in at a creuise Vincentius saith there was a deacon talking with a woman and therefore the pigeon could not moue and so either one of these two Doctours make a lie and then Maister Harding proueth his priuate Masse with a lie or else Basil said Masse twice after his owne fashion and then this is no vntruth But saith Maister Harding Antonius doeth also report this Masse saying I graunt he doeth so And so doth Aesope that apes and asses spake But I trow Maister Harding doeth not beleue him no more doth any wise man his Antonius He y t list to haue y e fabler reproued let him reade the booke The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith that after Basils retourne from Pontus Ensebius knew him not Harding The .189 vntruth I assure you my booke hath it not Dering Belike Maister Hardings Amphilochius is but a patched boke But if he wil go to that other at Verona in Italie which is faire written in velem there sure he shal finde it The B. of Saris. Nazianzen saith that Basil was not Bishop of Caesarea in Iulianus time Harding The .190 vntruth Nazianzen saith not so Dering Maister Harding in his Reioinder saith thus Perhaps it is true that Nazianzen was not then Bishop of Caesarea but yet Nazianzen â—aith it not Now sure good Reader without all perhappes Maister Harding is a verie wrangler that when he can not denie the thing yet will stick so dainely vpon the words But say M. Har. what he say wil both Nazianzen al other writers which do speke of Basils doing doe beare witnesse of this matter Nazianzen reporteth how vpon dissention betwene him Eusebius he went into Pontus And when Valens for y e furtheraÌ„ce of Arrian heresie came to Caesarea and vexed much the faithfull Nazianzen was sent to Basil to call him home for the aide of the church vpon which returne he was reconciled to Eusebius in like authoritie gouerned the church Now this being done in the time of Valens who was after Iouinian and Basil yet no Bishop is it not then plaine that Amphilochius is a lier which sayth Basill was Bishoppe in Iulians time which was Emperour next before Iouinian Yf there were no more to say but this yet this would proue Maister Harding were impudent in this vntruth But Nazianzen speaketh yet more plaine he saith Basil was made bishop in Eusebius roome after the death of Valens about the yeare of our Lorde .380 And for an vndoubted proofe that he was no Bishoppe in Iulianus time Basill him selfe writeth that he was made chiefe of the church of Caesarea when the Arrian
heresie was in the greatest rage which was after that Valens hadde raised the great persecution for it And this also thou shalt finde written in Socrates Now these authorities standing thus as thou shalt finde them by examination what will Maister Hardings perhaps excuse him Sure that these manie vntruthes stande vpon no grounde but his impudent facings The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith that Basil foretolde the death of Iulian Theodoretus saith it was one Iulianus Sabba and not S. Basil. Harding The .190 vn Theodoretus saith not that Sabba foretold it The .192 vn ▪ He saith not that Basil did not tell it Dering Maister Harding hath but a little way to go and hath yet a great manie vntruths to make Therfore taking good holde in time in these words Sabba foretold it and not Basil he picketh it two vntruths One that Sabba tolde it not the other that Basil tolde it He might with as much facilitie haue made the thirde that and is a coniunction should couple two wordes and sentences together But here by the way note that Amphilochius telleth a fowle popish tale an ilfauored vntruth which Maister Harding thinketh good to skip ouer for shame and with a good courage goeth forward making the reader beleue al is wel Reade the Replie Fol. 83. Now to these vntruthes If Sabba dyd foretell the death of Iulian then notwithstanding Maister Hardings numbring yet Basil foretolde it not Then héere is the controuersie whether Theodorete saith that Iulianus Sabba did tell it first Then reade the place and thou shalt finde it thus When Libanius doeth aske of Sabba what the Carpenters sonne was now a doing Sabba aunswereth that the maker of the worlde whome he in mockage dyd call the Carpenters sonne was making sandapilam a héere to carie dead bodies and sone after the Emperour dyed Then it foloweth in y e next chapter that the same day that Iulian died Resciuit cecidisse Sabba knew he was dead and tolde it vnto his felowes Now iudge who was the first teller of these newes before the Emperour was dead Sabba tolde Libanius his beare was a making the same daye that he died he tolde it abrode Now Basil being then not present with the Emperour as likewise Sabba was not but did know it miraculouslie how could S. Basil tell it before him No doubt good Reader when Maister Harding made two vntruthes of this he had either slender iudgement or verie yll choise The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith Nazianzen was present at Basils death Nazianzen him selfe saith he came afterwarde Harding The .193 vntruth Nazianzen saith not so in his Monodia Dering Maister Harding saith in his reioinder he will not denie that this is true Reade his booke is not this a strange matter y t he noteth that for an vntruth which he will not denie but it is a truth Yf he haue no thing to say but that it is not in his Monodia what skilleth it so the thing be truely reported whether the place be noted at all or no I doe easely graunt that Maister Iuel may be well deceiued in keping iust reconing of bookes and chapters but that is a slender fault when he reporteth all that is written truely Now to proue that this is true and that Nazianzen was not at Basils death it is manifest that he was at Arianzum his owne patrimonie and made his Epitaphe and oration vpon Basil one whole yeare after Basil was dead And whē he hadde done he went home againe as it is sufficiently proued by Grigorie Nissene And Gregorius Presbiter doeth witnesse the same that Nazianzen came long after that Basil was dead thus graunting that it be not founde in Nazianzens Monodia yet by other good witnesse Amphilochius is proued a lier Now for misnaming the place alleaging the authoritie truely I shall néede to make no longe aunswere The fault is so small that it doth excuse it selfe The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius is so impudent to say Nazianzen came in all hast and saw the blessed bodie and fell vpon it when it was buried Harding The .194 vntruthe Amphilochius saith not he fell vpon him vvhen he vvas buried Dering In this vntruth is nothing but a little wrangling about this saying when he was buried Which wordes whether they be in Amphilochius or no I meane not yet to go to Verona and looke Sure it is he could not fall on him when he was couered with moulde and sith the matter is no weightier let it rest for me Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer one other lie and maketh no defence of Amphilochius writing it but leaues that altogither vntouched for a testimonie what him selfe thinketh of Amphilochius After all this a doe about him he giueth him ouer with this round conclusion be he as he is I neither defend him nor condemne him he is ashamed any further to defende him bicause he is a shamelesse lier and yet he wil not condemne him bicause he maketh a tale for Maister Hardings Masse In the meane season we haue some gesse what the author is when his great friendes dare not defend him Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer two leaues at once and so draweth to an ende The B. of Saris. Chrysostome saith some are called and some are brought to receiue with the Priest diuis 34. Harding The .195 vntruth Chrisostome saith not so Dering If M. Harding did now begin his wrangling it were peraduenture requisite more at large to blame it but bicause it is common y e reader I trust is alredie forewarned to beleue nothing that he saith without some other witnesse Therefore his credit being thus broken the proofe of this vntruth being so slender there is no great daunger least any man should take hurt by it I will omit therefore further proofe of Maister Iuels saying and I onely require to consider this maner of vntruth Thus Maister Iuel alleageth Chrisostoms words Some are called some brought to receiue with y e priest That is not so saith Maister Harding they are not called to receiue with the Priest This then must be iudged by Chrisostome he writeth thus The Deacon standing vpright in the sight of all the people c. Some he calleth to communicate and some he putteth off Now how can any indifferent man say ▪ that Maister Iuell misreporteth these wordes But so it is Maister Harding hath shut from him all indifferencie and doeth let affection miserably blinde his vnderstanding and by that meanes hath espied this vntruth and the vntruth is that Chrisostome hath not these wordes with the Priest but they are Maister Iuels owne addition But what meaneth he Doth he think the people did receiue without y e priest or if they did not when Chrisostome saith they were called to receiue how is it vntrue to report his saying they were called to receiue with the priest Doe these vntruths néede many words to