Act. 14.23.2 If the Ministers of England had been true Ministers or Elders and had so planted the Gospel in England as they pretend they would not remain as Masters and Lords over the People in this Nation nor make a Trade of Preaching as they have done these many years but would go into other Nations and parts of the world and spread the Gospel freely but instead thereof they are settled and do feed upon the fat and live lazily in this Nation like droan Bees that devour the fruits of others labours And they that go up and down and Preach the Gospel freely are envied and persecucuted by these covetous lazy Teachers as hath been apparent these several years in this Nation And by the way I observe that C. W. shews but a very slender Reason for his counting the Quakers Paper which is printed in his Book a Libel because it hath no particular names subscribed to it seeing that the Paper he knew was owned by them called Quakers who sent it to him as also it being generally owned by us there was the less need of subscribing a particular name to it and the truth thereof being so apparent against the Priests that they that see how their Covetous Practices do prove it may be satisfied of the truth of it And C. W. hath shewed himself so Ignorant of the Scriptures that he hath accused the said Paper with Railing Revileing Language and Tearms and such speech as is found in Hell and hellish mouths when as the Language and Tearms he hath so accused is the very Language and Tearms of Scripture as you may see in Isa. 56.11 Jer. 5.31 chap. 6.13 4.22 Ezek. 34.3 Mica 3.11 Mat. 23.19.24.33 John 10.12 13. 8.44 2 Tim. 3.13 Titus 1.10 1 John 2.18 2 John 7. 2 Pet. 2.13 Jude 11. Rev 22.15 chap. 18.23 III. The Priests Envy Hypocrisie and falshood in several things detected And who but an envious malicious man would have sent forth such accusations and reproaches against us whereby to incense the Magistrates to persecute us as this Creswell Whately hath done Especially in these times wherein our suffering is so great already as is not unknown to the Nation and still for our Consciences and Religion we are lyable to have our sufferings added unto and now for him or any of the Priests to seek to add to our affliction by accusing us to the Magistrates is both inhumane and unchristian like and not at all as they would be dealt by And since the Presbyterians themselves are so lyable to suffer if they constantly adhere to what they have professed this man if he had been in Moderation and Reasonableness might have considered our Case by his own but many of the Presbyterian Priests can pretty much save themselves from Sufferings and Persecution whilst they can daub with every outward Power and cleave to the Magistrates by flatteries and in Hypocricsie and Dissimulation can conform to the Religion that the Rulers are of or will Impose whatever it be for their own Ends to save their Livings or fat Benefices So that had C. W. well considered the way and Practices of his own generation of hireling Teachers he would not have accused us with first being Anabaptists and then Ranters and now Quakers and next of all we know not what pag. 4. when he should rather have said of many of those Ministers that are of his own affinity we must one while be Episcopal men for the Common Prayer Book another while we must be Presbyterians and plead for Ordination by the Presbytery and for the Directory and therein deny the Common Prayer and tell the People that the Lyturgy must be laid aside as that which hath given occasion to many Ministers to be idle and slothful and too much negligent in putting forth themselves in the gift of Prayer and Studying to Preach the Word and now after all this we must plead for Ordination from the Bishops and turn again to the Lyturgy or Common Prayer and thereby openly make our selves Transgressors by building up that again which we have destroyed Gal. 2.18 and what Religion and Worship we shall be of and have next we know not but rather then we will lose our great Places Livings and Tythes we may in all likelihood turn to the Masse if the Magistrate will for we have hitherto been sound changeable both in Practices and Doctrine for our own ends And though we have often in our Pulpits Prayed for Oliver Cromwel and his Parliaments and called him the Light of our Eyes and the breath of our Nostrils and kept many Fasts and dayes both of Humiliation and Thanksgiving for him and have often given thanks in Publick for the Victories that have been given him over his Enemies who were for a Kingly Government as also we much Rejoyced when his Son Richard Cromwel was Proclaimed Protector and kept Prayer-dayes for him and prophesied that he should be a second Solomon and of his Establishment and tranquility in the Nation and what a blessing he should be to it as many that have heard us in our Pulpits can bear us witness and all this was that these men in Authority should gratifie us in setting great Livings and Tythes upon us and for that end many of us have often humbly Petitioned these Protectors but now after all this to gloss and colour over all these former proceedings of ours now these former Powers being overturned and King Charles the Second being in Authority in the Nation wee 'l Preach and Pray for him and shew our selves zealous for him and bid People fear God Honour the King and meddle not with those that are given to change as also wee 'l Preach against the Independants Anabaptists and Quakers and call them Fannaticks but especially against the Quakers for they gaul us most of all and thereby seek to gratifie these Magistrates as we have done the former as well as we can that they may maintain us and if any of us be like to lose our Livings let us Petition and get a License under the broad Seal and when we have obtained the Magistrates favour by Preaching and Praying for them and flattering them then will we plead for Tythes and setlted Maintenance and seek to cause the Magistrates to persecute all that will not hear nor maintain us and when we cannot by Argument from Scripture maintain Tythes to be of Divine right to us neither from Melchizedochs receiving the Tyth of the spoil which Abraham gave him freely when he returned from the slaughter of the Kings not yet from the Priests of Levy's example who had a command to take Tyth of their Brethren which were both for their service at the Tabernacle which now is ended by Christ as also for the relieving the Fatherless Widowes and Strangers a Tenth of which Tyth was offered for an Heave-offering unto the Lord now when we cannot maintain Tythes to be Jure Divino from these examples then will we flie to the
THE Pernicious Way Of the Rigid PRESBYTER AND ANTICHRISTIAN MINISTERS DETECTED And several weighty Matters in Controversie betwixt Sion and her Adversaries or between the true Church and the false discussed To inform both Magistrates Ministers and People against the Spirit of Antichrist and Persecution Partly upon occasion of a Book entituled The QUAKERS LIBEL Answered by Creswel Whately who calls himself Minister of the GOSPEL To which is annexed Something concerning the true Christ and his being in his People In answer to Matthew Caffin his great Error and Mistake of the Quakers in his Book entituled Faith in God's Promises the Saints best Weapon LONDON Printed for Robert Wilson 1662. The Pernicious Way of the rigid PRESBYTER and Antichristian Ministers detected I. Touching Ministers Maintenance by Tithes and whether they be now of Divine right or no SInce that we have seen several of the National Ministers have let fall their Plea for Tithes upon a divine account and only have fled to the National Law and pleaded a civil Right to them they not being able by the Scriptures to maintain their Plea for them to be now of Divine Right due to the Ministry I find one Creswel Whately who calls himself a Minister of the Gospel who to shew his Ignorance and Confusion more than many others hath taken it upon him in his Book to vindicate Tithes upon a Scripture account as to be of Divine Right due to them And therefore let us a little in the first place see what he saith for them The said Creswel Whately saith Did not God appoint heretofore that there should be Tithes payed of all they had and in the Gospel he hath no where repealed that Command and that the Apostle upheld the Right of Tithes though he did forbear to take them in pag. 2. 17. of his Book To which I answer This would both make the Apostle a Transgressor if there were such a Command in force which he did not obey as this implies as also it would make him false in what he said in his Epistle to the Hebrews touching the change of the Priesthood that took the Tithes and the change of the Law and disannulling of the Commandement which the Sons of Levi had for Tithes which Priesthood Law and Commandement the Apostle plainly sheweth the change and end of as is apparent in that of Heb. 7. And as for God's ordaining That as they that Ministred at the Altar were partakers with the Altar even so hath ordained That they that Preach the Gospel shall live of the Gospel to which C. W. adds Is it not plain that as the Levites did partake with the Altar by taking Tithes even so must they that Preach the Gospel live of the Gospel namely by taking Tyths also To which I answer This is an absurd Argument and that which the true Ministers would be ashamed of for the Priests under the Law partaking with the Altar and the Ministers of Christ their living of the Gospel are two distinct things relating to several states and dispensations and living of the Gospel is not living of Tithes though as it was an Ordinance of God under the Law the Priests should partake with the Altar of Tithes and Offerings so it is an Ordinance of God under the Gospel that Christian Ministers should live of the Gospel which is a further state than the other and as the Gospel is free so living of it and being maintained according to it is not a living by Tythâ—s and forced Maintenance neither doâ—h it follow that because God hath ordained the Livelyhood of both the Priests under the Law and Ministers of the Gospel that therefore the Ministers of the Gospel must be maintained as the Priests under the Law were as this pretended Minister of the Gospel hath implied For if it were so the Ministers of the Gospel must live by Tithes and Offerings as the Priests under the Law did Num. 18.9 10 24 26. which no true Minister will own And now to prove the Ministers taking Tithe-Corn Hay Calves Foals Wool Lambs Geese Hens Pigs c. C. W. instanceth Luk. 11.42 Of the Pharisees to whom woe belonged Tything of Mint Annis and Cummin c. To which I say this doth not at all make for their taking Tithe now as this man vainly imagines for it was in the time of the Law before either it or the Priesthood shadows under it were fulfilled or ended by Christ seeing it was before he was Crucified that he spoke these words Luk. 11.42 Mat. 23.23 So that in arguing for Tithes from that of Luk. 11.42 the Priests come very poorly and feebly off as C. W. hath done in his saying That all Tythes ought now to be payed as well as heretofore if we will follow the Rule of Jesus Christ under the Gospel c. This then would make the Apostle Paul and the rest of Christs Ministers Transgressors against Christ for they did not take Tythes nor forced Maintenance and this Priest VVhately hath confessed That Paul did forbear to take Tythes pag. 17. and so his words do tend to make Paul a Trangressor and a Hypocrite if he owned one thing in words and another thing in practice and certainly had the Apostle been of this Priests opinion that it was a Rule of Christ to take Tithes he would not have transgressed the Rule for there were several of the Churches to whom he Ministred that had been able to have payed him them had they been due under the Gospel And to that of Heb. 7.12 C. VV. answereth thus p. 16. It is here said there must of necessity be a change of the Law it is not said there must of necessity be a change of Tithes c. See what a false Gloss he would put upon the Scripture he would maintain Tithes as due by that Command by which they were upheld in the Law and yet the Law is changed which gave them What confusion is this If the Law for Tithes be changed where is the Command of it in force to uphold them now But the Apostle saith the Commandement is disannulled and the Law is changed and Christ is not a Priest after the Law of a carnal Commandement but after the Power of an endless Life Heb. 7.16 But saith C. VV. The Law which must of necessity be changed is the Ceremonial used under the Levitical Priesthood where there were many Types and Shadows of Christ c. all which and many other things that were Types of Christ are indeed abolished under the Gospel as Offerings and many other things c. but there is no resemblance between Tythes and the Lord Christ Tythes were no Type of Christ at all but a maintenance for the Ministers of Christ under the Law and so they ought to be a Maintenance for the Ministers of Christ under the Gospel c. I answer If Offerings that were under the Law were Types and Shadows of Christ then were Tithes for it was commanded that
Law that had its rise from the Pope for Tythes and wee 'l tell our hearers that the Magistrate gives us them and wee 'l threaten to trouble and Sue them if they will not pay us and thereby seek to terrifie and affright People that they may be forced to pay us and so we will drive on our Trade by all the Policy and force we can and seek by all means to have the Quakers suppressed either by Persecution Imprisonings or taking away their Goods for Tythes in many places to the value of five or ten times more then the Tythes come to and now if these things will not do to overcome these Quakers as we see notwithstanding all their sufferings they grow and encrease upon us then will we make more complaints against them and tell the Magistrates they are a dangerous People they will overthrow both Ministers and Magistrates and will not spare the Supream Magistrate himself if they be suffered to go on therefore now let them be Banished for we cannot live in quiet nor quietly drive on our Trade for them but they will need be Checking and Reproving us for our taking Tythes and Preaching for gain and our seeking to compell men to our way and Worship and to Impose Religion upon men contrary to their Faith and Conscience All these things with many other deceits are these Treacherous Clergy-men and Persecuting Priests guilty of in themselves as by their Fruits and Doctrines is apparent So that the Lord hath made them contemptible and base before all People Mal. 2.9 And whereas in pag. 11. C. W. Accuseth us of Insolencies and Lybels which he saith so far as they reflect upon the Publick and do tend to the disturbance and subversion of the Nation and Common-wealth so far the Magistrate is bound not to suffer such Insolencies to go unpunished c. For when the Child shall behave himself proudly against the Antient and the Base against the Honourable Isa. 3.5 Then the Magistrate must remember that he ought to punish evil doers and if he do not punish such disorders but is sparing in this kinde because of a Temporizing Spirit and out of base fear or because of any selfish Carnal Policy God will assuredly punish him for his Sin of Negligence Answ. 1. As for Lybels or Insolencies tending to the subversion of the Nation which this Priest would have the Magistrate to punish us for hereof he hath accused us falsly and shewed a spirit of Envy and Persecution against us for which I know no ground he hath against us either to accuse us in this manner or to seek to Instigate the Magistrate against us but onely because the Lord our God hath raised us up in Righteousness to bear witness against the deceits and unrighteous Practices Persecution and Oppression that such Teachers as are of his Affinity are guilty of and their making a Trade and a Gain of their Preaching which we have in the Spirit of Truth born witness against both in our words Writings and Books which scornfully and falsly this Priest calls Lybels though wha we speak and write be agreeable to the Scriptures of Truth and neither this said Priest nor any of his Brethren the Priests have ever yet cleared themselves of those things which we have laid to their charge in our Books 2. What we speak and write in Truth and Righteousness against the Priests oppression covetousness and Preaching for forced Maintenance doth not at all tend to subvert the Nation as he would possess the Magistrate but to establish the Nation in Peace and free it from much bondage oppression persecution and suffering which the covetous hireling Priests have brought upon it which if it were free from those things and people left free to the Lord to lead and order them by his Spirit in matters pertaining to Religion and Conscience and only the Magistrates to punish evil doers and to be a praise to them that do well and not to lend their ears to the Priests to be their drudges and executioners in persecuting and imprisoning conscientious men because they cannot maintain them in their oppression I say then the Nation would be more at peace and all that are conscientious and moderate in it more satisfied And the Priests might be tryed if they would Preach freely and live of the Gospel as the true Ministers did for if God hath ordained that they that Preach the Gospel shall live of it he is able to fulfil his own Ordinance without their forcing Maintenance by a Law from people or suing them at Law for Tythes in which thing the Priests have manifested themselves to be both out of the Ordinance of God and example of all his Ministers 3. By their so much seeking to incense the Magistrate to punish and persecute us for bearing witness against their covetous practices and false principles it appears they are afraid their Trade should fail them and go down as it hath already failed many of them whilst they are putting one another out of their Livings and places where they have upheld their unrighteous Trade for their Bellies as those that bite and devour one another 4. And as to that of Isa. 3.5 of the Child's behaving himself proudly against the Antient this was in Israel when they oppressed one another which pride and oppression we are not guilty of but the proud and covetous Clergy But whereas this C.W. accuseth us as behaving our selves proudly against the honourable one seeming reason for it a little before is pag. 10. he saith That we do continually all along use those disdainful tearms of Thee and Thou and the like scornful expressions and saith That this is directly contrary to the Rule of the Gospel c. and it is also contrary to the example of the Apostle Paul when he was reproached by Festus c. the Apostle doth not say Thee and Thou but most noble Festus c. Act. 26.24 Answer This accusation reflects upon all the Holy men of God spoken of in Scripture who used the words Thee and Thou to a single person and You and Ye onely as pertaining to a number or to more than one as if they all used disdainful and scornful expressions and as if they therein directly transgressed the Rule of the Gospel this is but a bad and unequal judgement and apparently false for Paul himself used Thou to Festus and several times both Thee and Thou in signification to King Agrippa who was in greater Authority than Festus Act. 25.10 Chap. 26.2 3 27 29. and multitudes of examples more might be instanced for this As also this man can use Thee and Thou to God in his Prayers and he and his Brethren have learned that plain language in their Grammer which distinguisheth between the singular and plural number though now he hath accused us with using disdainful tearms for using that plainness of speech which he hath formerly learned in which thing the very Heaâ—hen may judge the pride of
Man For neither is the Man without the Woman nor the Woman without the Man in the Lord and the Apostle admits of Womens praying and Prophecying in the Spirit of Truth And as there were true Prophets so there were true Prophetesses spoken of in the Scriptures both of the Old and New Testament Exod. 15.20 Judg. 4.4 2 King 22.14 Neh. 6.14 Isa. 8.3 Luk. 2.36 Act. 21.9 And it is said Your Sons and Daughters shall Prophesie Joel 2. Act. 2. And did not Women Preach the Resurrection of Christ soon after he was risen Luk. 24.10 And that saying That a man can never be a Woman I say in some sence some Men may be accounted Women as the false Prophets in Israel and the Women that ruled over the People when Children were their Oppressors Isa. 3.12 Chap. 32. Jer. 51.30 Ezek. 13. and such as were deceived and led captive in the Apostles dayes were called silly VVomen 2 Tim. 3. And to his saying pag. 18. That the whole Country and he thinks the whole Land is acquainted with Anne Audlands presumptuous speaking in our Assembly and surely Anne Audland cannot deny but that she is a VVoman Answer As for presumptuous speaking that is not proved against Anne Audland but is denied as a slander and when at any time the Spirit of the Lord hath moved in Anne Andland to speak or in any other Daughter or Hand-maid of the Lord the Spirit ought not to be quenched nor Prophesie to be despised whether it proceed from true Prophets or Prophetesses See further of this matter in G. F. his Book concerning Sons and Daughters and Prophetesses speaking c. And as for C. VV. his Rhime in the end of his Book where he saith Instead of Papists are the Quakers come Disturbing all these parts of Christendom Their Plots are Hellish too their Deeds are evil Both boast of Christ no more my Muse is civil Answer Herein the world may see what a vain light and false spirit this man is acted by who hath herein appeared in the practice of Drunkards such as made Songs of David Psal. 69.12 or Fiddlers in his lying Rhime against us and when he hath falsly charged us with Hellish Plots and evil Deeds then saith his Muse is civil wherein he hath appeared more like a Fiddler or a Stage-player than a Minister of Christ and many more of these falshoods slanders and absurdities there are which I forbear to mention And as to his saying pag. 13. That here is the last Answer that ever he intended to send to the Quakers c. I say indeed more prudence had he manifested if he had kept silent than he hath done in many things he hath asserted and silence hereafter may be more safe for him and his Brethren than to utter words without knowledge And now I shall leave our Cause and the Controversie that is betwixt C. VV. and us to the Lord and all sober People to judge of Here followeth something concerning the true Christ and his being in his People in Answer to Matthew Caffin c. HAving lately met with a Book of Matthew Caffin's the latter part of which is entituled The great Error and Mistake of the Quakers concerning the true Christ and how he is said to be in his People c. Wherein he doth much wrong both that People and their Principles and abused the Truth it self and therefore I saw it expedient to note a few particular things upon some of the chief heads of his matter both for the clearing of the Truth and for the discovery of his ignorance and confusion to him and the rest of the Baptists since that he hath been such an old and eminent opposer of the Truth as many can testifie and as appears his malice and envy was so high against the People called Quakers that he hath vomited out his own shame against them whereby to render them odious in the sight of their enemies and that in such times as these wherein they are made as the greatest object of mens hatred persecution and cruelty which they have in a great measure undergone and are liable still to undergo more of the same from which suffering the Baptists themselves are not altogether free if they be faithful to their own Principles So that long ere this they might have learned more wisdom moderation and discretion than so to revile us now in the sight of our enemies as Matthew Caffin who is one of their Leaders hath done And now whereas in his matter against the Quakers he beg to relate some mens experiences in this wise viz. Certain men being troubled about their present conditions and thereupon following after as more excellent estate have on a sudden been greatly carried forth with inward power and zeal and wonderful quicknings after some matters of holiness so as scarce able to bear with the least appearance of pride covetousness or the like in others without reproof and at length have been secretly informed that the powerful working within them was Christ come in them c. but being somewhat fearful of delusions did thereupon give up themselves diligently to pray unto the Lord who at length graciously delivered them from the strong delusion c. To which I answer So it appears that these motions and operations did arise from a true power in those People which so far was the manifestation of Christ to and in them that they were not only led to follow after a state of holiness but also upon their praying diligently to the Lord he so far returned an acceptable answer to them as that he graciously delivered them from the strong delusion But mark Matthew Caffin's very next words and what a conclusion he hath made touching these inward motions and operations I say saith he the strong delusion for is it not so indeed when an evil spirit shall carry forth persons zealously to some things that is just holy and good though he no lover of holiness but really an Angel of darkness that seemingly may appear to be an Angel of light c. See how M. C. hath herein contradicted his former words and what gross ignorance and error he is in now to conclude that an evil spirit and an Angel of darkness carries forth persons zealously to things that be just holy and good and of such persons also he speaks this as before he confessed the Lord did graciously at length deliver them from strong delusion and so he hath done no better than put light for darkness and darkness for light And who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean And further mark how in the next page he hath again confuted himself for there he tells you That the one and the true Spirit of God being plainly to be known by his guiding and moving the Saints not only to be just holy and zealous in point of Conversation but also steadfast in the Principles of Faith c. when before he said it was an evil spirit that carries
forth persons zealously to things that is just holy and good and now he tells you it is the true Spirit of God and so is plainly to be known it 's well that at length he speaks some Truth though to his own confusion as all that are sober may easily see M. C. accuseth one of us with saying That Christ was never seen with any carnal eye nor his voice heard with any carnal ear and to prove it cites a Book entituled A Declaration to the Baptists pag. 13. and another with saying That the Flesh of Christ is a Figure for which he cites Saul's Errand c. pag. 14. To the former of which I say Christ as he is truly to be seen and known in the Spirit is a mistery not seen nor heard with the carnal eye or ear with which agreeth his saying viz. He that seeth me seeth him that sent me who is not carnally to be seen neither had the unbelievers either heard the voice of God or seen his shape though he spake by his Son Christ and some that outwardly Christ spake to understood not what he said because they heard not his Word Joh. 8.19 43. 12.45 2. And as for the words in Saul's Errand p. 14. what is said of Christ there as also in pag. 8. hath relation to his coming in the flesh as therein being an example as in Pet. 2.21 and not in relation to the receiving his flesh in the mistery as it is the Believers meat for that is the substance but as to his outward manifestation in the flesh he was God an example which was the very intent of the words Example or Figure being used in the said Book for in some sence they have relation to one thing as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and whether is it better for us to say that Christ as in the flesh was an example or for M. Caffin to say That in one sence the flesh of Christ profited nothing as he hath in pag. 41 set any rational man judge of this And M. C. saith That the eternal Spirit which dwelt in the man whom the Jews crucified which Spirit the Apostles received in them is not the Christ the Saviour of the world but the visible man c. I answer Here he seems to divide the man Christ from the eternal Spirit and so hath denied the eternal Spirit to be Christ but saith the visible man is Christ when as the Apostle saith The last Adam was made a quickning Spirit and the Lord is that Spirit 1 Cor. 15.2 Cor. 3. And if the eternal Spirit be not the Christ but the visible man then it follows that when the Apostle preacht that Jesus Christ was in the Saints he did not intend that the eternal Spirit was in them but the visible man which is both absurd and false But in answer to several cavils and objections made against us we own the true Christ both as he was of the seed of David according to the flesh and in the dayes of his flesh that he was the true Christ but not without the eternal Spirit and the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness who said Before Abraham was I am and as to his dying and rising again according to the Scriptures and as now glorified with the Father in the same glory that he was in before the world was This we confess according to the Scriptures without any such blind distinction as M. C. hath unjustly cast upon us And M.C. saith That the Quakers to deceive intend not the Truth namely that the visible man whom the Jews crucified wiâ—hout was the Christ. Answer This is a slander for they confess that Christ was crucified and died as concerning the flesh but was quickned by the Spirit 1 Pet. 3.18 M. C. God thereby bearing false witness to the world if the eternal Spirit which the Apostles afterward received in them be the Christ which Spirit never was slain never had blood to shed Answer This tends not only to render the Apostles as false witnesses who knew Christ in them and dwelling in their hearts and the second man to be made a quickning Spirit though before that he was known by some after the flesh and in the dayes of his flesh but also M. C. hath contradicted himself in pag. 46. where speaking of Christ of whom the Jews said he had a Devil but the Disciples knew him to be the Spirit of Truth he saith and in pag. 42. M. C. saith of Christ viz. Yet now henceforth saith the Apostle know we him so no more that is to esteem him upon that account viz. upon his being born of the Tribe of Judah and of the Seed of Abraham or for that reason meritoriously the Saviour of the World but rather upon the account of his coming down from Heaven his being the Son of God c. How sadly is M. C. lost and confounded herein one while to deny the eternal Spirit to be the Christ and to say but it was the visible man that was Christ another while to say as that he is not to be known or esteemed upon his being born of the Tribe of Judah but upon the account of his coming down from Heaven what then was he a visible man as he came down from Heaven or as he came of the Tribe of Judah and Seed of Abraham Here all may see this mans gross ignorance and confusion And what if the eternal Spirit never was slain never had blood to shed as in M. C. his account it doth not follow therefore that he is not a Spirit who descended from Heaven as such a one and in time took upon him flesh and blood Heb. 2.14 and was put to death as concerning the flesh who was the true Christ both in the dayes of his flesh in that low estate of suffering and in the state of Glory wherein he was before the world began And as to his condescention low estate and suffering as manifest in his People who have born in their Bodies the dying of the Lord and his blood or life which is poured forth and freely laid down of himself and fed upon in the Mistery by the Believers M. C. is not in a capacity to receive what might be said thereof And now to mend the matter he saith of Christ his being a quickning Spirit That if the Spirit as Spirit be the last or second Adam then it follows that the first man Adam who was of the earth earthly was first and before the eternal quickning Spirit pag. 42. 43. Answer Would any rational man have laid down such an absurdity as this for here he cannot deny but that the second Adam was made a quickning Spirit as in 1 Cor. 15. but would not have him as a Spirit to be the last or second Adam for if the Spirit as Spirit saith he so he would render the Apostles words false but I say Christ being called the second Adam which is the Lord from Heaven was