A REMONSTRANCE OR PLAINE DETECTION OF SOME OF THE FAVLTS AND HIDEOVS SORES OF SVCH SILLIE SYLLOGISMES AND IMPERTINENT ALLEGATIONS AS OVT OF sundrie factious Pamphlets and Rhapsodies are cobled vp together in a Booke Entituled A DEMONSTRATION OF DISCIPLINE Wherein also The true state of the Controuersie of most of the points in variance is by the way declared 2. Timoth. 3. ver 5 6 7. They haue a shew of godlinesse but haue denied the power thereof turne away therefore from such for of this sort are they which creepe into houses and lead captiue simple women laden with sinnes and led with diuers lustes which are euer learning and are neuer able to come to the knowledge of the trueth Augustinus in Psal 34. Quare in Praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini quare duos populos ex vno vultis facere Cyprianus lib. 4. epist 9. ad Florentium Pupianum Pupianus solus integer inuiolatus sanctus pudicus qui nobis miscere se noluit in Paradiso in regno coelorum solus habitabit Imprinted at London by GEORGE BISHOP and RAFE NEWBERIE An. Domini 1590. TO THE FACTIOVS AND TVRBVLENT T. C.VV.T I.P. AND TO THE REST OF THAT ANarchicall disordered Alphabet which trouble the quiet and peace of the Church of England MAnifold and foole-hardie haue your oppositions and practises bene against the setlement of that discipline of the Church of England which beyond all iust contradiction we rightly mainteine as lineally deduced from the Apostles and primitiue times downeward vnto vs and to be reduced from our times vpward vnto them As namely by your opposite Admonitions to the Parliament by Pamphlet-writing of Replies by Counterpoyson by Abstract by Dialoguizing by Martinizing or printing of infamous libels by penning or Penrying of malepart and treasonable letters by coursing and discoursing ouer the holy discipline of the Church And nowe at last by shewe and demonstration or by making colourable shewe and false demonstration to conclude your discipline in Syllogisme That is to seclude your selues from all pretence of the thing you would haue for euer after before you are awares and that in Moode and Figure The subtiller sorte of Heretikes haue done no more then you haue done to vexe the Church Tertullian de Praescript aduers Hâ—â—â— Apelles the disciple of Marcion had certaine priuate but extraordinarie Lectures or Readings or prophesies of his owne which they called Phaneroseis declarations or demonstrations of a certaine maide named Philumena whome he followed as a Prophetesse Habet praetereà suos libros quos inscripsit Syllogismorum Besides this he hath his bookes to which he giueth this title of Syllogismes wherein he vndertakes to proue That whatsoeuer Moses hath writteÌ„ is not true but false Semblably this scholler of T. C. besides all their prophesyings conferences priuate sermonings parlour exercising libellings hath brought vnto light this booke of demonstratiue Syllogismes an incredible and singular good method and most seruiceable to their owne times which method if either your Ecclesiasticall discipliners A. B. C. D. or T.C. or any other of your Alphabet had heretofore embraced and bound them selues fast vnto we should not haue needed to pursue after your extrauagant and stragling conceipts lying so scattered in your worthie commentaries whereby you doe nothing else then blurre paper as alwaies saying one the same thing nor your selues should be so farre off from ioyning a right issue to determine trie the cause For by this demonstratiue dealing all waste wordes had bene pared away as excrementious and superfluous to the body and state of the question and your vndutifull demeanors against the proceedings superioritie of Church-gouernors altogether spared Which stratageme as in the sight of God and his Angels detestable and damnable it hath rather with silence then with censure bene answered and your wits exceedingly misliked therefore so this sophisme or manner of paralogisme if it were somewhat more mannerly as dealing with materiall pointes and letting alone personall might deserue lesse reprehension or mislike whereunto I haue framed this briefe answere with Remonstrance shewing the absurditie of your reasons fallacie of your syllogismes indemonstrable demonstrations compiled by other in their bookes combined vp in this booke of yours worthied by you of this title to be named a Demonstration and to be surnamed a Demonstration of the holy discipline of the Church not the discipline of the holy Church because the Church is not so holy but must be hallowed by the discipline Whiles I am thus conuersant in answering I list not make of ten apparent digression from the propositions which I answere by instance to the contrarie distinction or deniall and by returning or retorting all vpon your selues as I might neither make a roadeouer to inuade other mens persons with selaunder as the Demonstrator doth particularly by producing at his pleasure euery one into the Theatre of enuious diffamation but I rather leaue a blanke or cyphre in Algorisme or an Abecedarie name And doe farther pray that all protestations of your zeale and godlines laied aside this Academicall lawe of disputing schoolelike being once enacted by your selues may not be repealed That whether your Demonstrator hath more to say he may still syllogize or if he haue ought to gaine-say it may please him to distinguish flatly denie or giue an instance to an affirmatiue point But if he haue no more to say wherewith to fortifie his part nor is able in this forme to dispose of his sayings Let the wiser sort of your sectaries suspend their iudgement from either crediting or admiring those pitifull demonstrations All that I haue said is no more in substance then that which hath bene aforesaid The solutions of your arguments are included in the answeres to the Admonition in the defense of that answere in the answere to the Abstract in the defense of the discipline of the Church of England and such other learned workes excepting some forced allegations annexed to the Demonstration and the coyned syllogismes All which by this method of Remonstrance is reanswered for it is but one answere Omne verum vero consentaneum Euery truth is but agreeeble to a trueth Veritas est simplex mendacium est multiplex there is but one trueth And although you multiply and vrge your falshood or diuide or subdiuide or part into infinite fractions yet it is but one and the same obiection one Proteus putting on diuerse mishapes the argument sometime clowded vnder an equinoction or coloured with ambiguitie of termes or vailed with inconsequencie or disorderly disposition of moode and figure or transposition of partes of the figure or borrowing Ignorationem elenchi Ignorance or vncunning whether the proposition holde Ad idem secundum idem c. respectiuely to this and not to that or by begging Petitionem principij to conclude one and the same by the selfe same Or to be beholding to the fallacte à non causa by arguing from insufficient cause vntrue effect and
these Remonstrance Purissimae populi parti hoc est sacris ministris nostris Nazaraeis quibus vel solis vel potissimum illis electiones committi oportebit sic enim ecclesiae nunquam male esset The purest sort of people that is holy Ministers and our Nazarites should be the chiefe electors of Bishops so the Church should neuer doe amisse The 11. Allegation Augustine when he appoynted Eradius to succeede him Demonstrator saith it was the approoued right and custome that the whole Church shoulde either choose or consent to their Bishop I take the place you meane to be in the 110. Remonstrance epist August which appointment or designement of his successour is against the 4. Conc. Toletan cap. 18. which you meane to alledge in your 18. Allegation to serue another turne How little this maketh for your purpose he that will reade that Epistle may see First it concerneth the election of a Bishop and not of any inferiour minister as the Demonstrators generall issue importeth Besides it is not an ordinary election when as Augustine both desired that himselfe might resigne and appointed his successour in his life time therefore lesse maruell if he would not doe it wholly against the peoples willes yet how slender a consent was looked for which the Demonstrator would make a solemne election these words of Augustine doe shew Least anie saith he shoulde thinke much or complaine of me I declare my will which I beleeue to bee the will of God in all your hearings August epi. 110. and knowledge I will haue Eradius the minister to be my successor whereupon the people vsed this acclamation Deo gratias thanked be God There is no mention of their right or of the custome If you meane not this place it might haue pleased you to haue quoted it Augustines whole workes are somewhat too large to be perused ouer to trace you in an vntrueth Besides in that you say with a disiunctiue Eyther choose or consent your issue is not heereby concluded for the disiunctiue is true if either part be true The 12. Allegation Demonstrator Anthimius choosing a Bishop without the consent of the people filled all Armenia with sedition Basilius epist 58. Basill writeth this to Miletius you do vntruely report of Basil Remonstrance Volopietatem tuam scire quod fraeter Anthimius Faustum cum Papa agentem Episcopum spretis suffragiis in locum reuerendissimi fratris Cyrilli ordinauit sic vt Armeniam seditione repleuerit where is to be noted ordinauit sic Emphatically So and in such sorte Spretis suffragijs In contempt of the people who might bee interessed Lastly one absent or from hence abiding in another place with the Patriarch The 13. Allegation Demonstrator Why did Peter communicate the election with the Disciples least it should turne to a brawle Chrysost 1. Act. Chrysostome is the best interpreter of himselfe Remonstrance whome you should haue faithfully alledged the wordes together with the sence are Nunc autem tempori iudicandi negotium permisit illis Vide Chrysost supra 6. Act. Eligere viros illis permittum It was but a temporary permission or leaue An non licebat ipsi was it not lawfull for Peter to elect Yes verely saith he it was lawfull but he doeth it not ne cui videretur gratificari least he should seeme to gratifie one more then another The 14. Allegation out of the testimonies of generall Counsels It is meete you should haue power to choose and to giue their names that are woorthie to be Clearkes Demonstrator according to the lawes and decrees of the Church If any die Concil Nicen. teste Theodoret. they who were last chosen are to be promoted to the honour of him that is dead if they bee woorthie of it and the people choose them The Demonstrator leaueth Theodoret with a blank for booke and Chapter the place Remonstrance lib. 9. cap. Eccles Histor. ex Epistola Concilij Niceni Ecclesiae Alexandrinae Aegypt Pentapol c. written against Arrius against Miletius but against Miletius with lesse seueritie that he should loose his authority power but retaine his name of dignitie office The Councell therfore speaketh of the Cleargie not of the peoples choosing Iura Clericorum qui orthodoxi manserunt it is the right of the Clearks who are Orthodoxe as Irenaeus noteth in the margine who should choose other clearks Howbeit if needs you wil vnderstande the people and Cleargy we wil not denie the people present to haue by acclamations testified their approbations of elections made as is afore noted neither for all that bind christian people to the same order in election nowe By the way I obserue you are not the best translatour ad verbum of the wordes of the councell mangled by you Modo idoneus videatur so he be fit populus illum eligat and the people choose him Episcopusque Alexandrinus ei suffragetur adeoque populi electionem confirmet There is the Byshop of Alexandria his necessarie and negatiue voyce who was Metropolitane and one of the foure oecumenicall Patriarches The 15. Demonstrator Allegation Let the people choose the Byshop approue seale vp the election with them This proueth the elections were not so absolute in the people Concil Nicen. Trip. Hist 2. li. but might be countermaunded by the Byshop who seemeth to obtaine and holde a negatiue voyce Remonstrance The 16. Allegation In an Epistle to Damasus Demonstrator Ambrose c sayth We haue ordeined Nectarius Byshop of Constantinople the whole citie decreeing the same and Flauianus was appointed Byshop of Antioch Concil Const test Trip. Hist li. 9. cap. 14. the whole citie appointing him The place is in Theodoret. lib. 5. cap. 9. Praeposuimus in generali concilio nostro Nectarium cum omnium clericorum totius ciuitatis approbatione praesente Imperatore Theodosio Remonstrance We haue placed that is we Byshops sayth Theodoret in the Chapter going before the Pastors and Ministers did choose him the whole citie was wel pleased therewith As for Flauianus the same answere serueth in the same case The 17. Demonstrator Allegation When he hath bin examined let him be ordeined Byshop by the common consent of the Clarks and lay people Concil Carthag cap. 1. We will not striue whether he must be tried as also both vel Episcoporum examine vel populi testimonio Remonstrance or whether euer any Byshop de facto haue bin so ordeined but whether alwayes of necessity it must be so 22. cap. 3. Concil Carthag The 18. Allegation Let him not be coūted a Priest whom the Clergy people doth not choose The wordes are Demonstrator qui nondum ad 30. annos peruenerint qui nec à clero nec à populo propriae ciuitatis electi sunt Neither by Clergie nor people Conc. Tolet. distinct 50. So that either
Rabbyn of you all Alas the Iesuites desire no better match then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them they are so farre to seeke in the controuersies I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council euen out of the Decrees of Gratian. The 8. Demonstration That which destroyeth the Church Demonstra cannot be good to rule But the Canon lawe destroyeth it for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie Ergo. Hinc illae lachrymae Remonstrance Lex non est posita iustis there is no lawe but for lawlesse men If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone then you were safe ynough you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes And is in deede the Church destroyed when any of you be crossed in your maner of discharging your Ministerie The Church I perceiue with you hath many significations The 9. Demonstration That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England Demonstrat then the Seminaries of Rhemes and Rome cannot be good but the Canon law c. Ergo. This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe Remonstrance well you shall haue somewhat for the making your credite shal be in the next Demonstration none shall beleeue you Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe euen as like as if a man woulde say that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel The 10. Demonstration That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe Demonstrat cannot be good But the Canon lawe for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds as Archbishops Lord bishops Arches Cathedral Churches Ergo. This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage Remonstr if he be not caged in another maner of cage or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates and Colleges of the Prophets O shamelesse follie as if Poperie were come in it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe though it were abrogated in the meane time The 11. Demonstration That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit Demonstrat cannot be good But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope haue cast it off Ergo. The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie Remonstr To the Minor An instance is The reformed Churches of Germanie Denmarke and Sweden that retaine much of it and so our Church But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust equall decision to determine the contrarie because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes Iudges and badde men The 12. Demonstration We our selues mislike it as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6. Demonstration We doe not mislike but abridge Remonstrance an abridgement or exception vnto part is not misliking of the whole By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall nor lawes of the land O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator The fifteenth Chapter Assertion GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiasticall onely as vocation abdication Demonstration in deciding of controuersies in doctrine and maners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church This Assertion is laid out by him Remonstrance not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouernours as what not apperteineth viz. ciuill causes which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers the worde signifieth properly a voluntarie putting away of an office but hee thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a mans will such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust The French disciplines both and their practise together with the booke written in confirmation of that discipline do attribute to euery consistorie or Eldership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall This part of power our men neuer reach at plainely in direct termes because it were likely to be enuious perhaps would proue eyther too hotte or to heauie vnto them And it is wisely me thinketh considered of them besides for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away then shall their power be more absolute if none in their steade be set downe but all left to their owne wils And seeing they haue left to themselues deciding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes though most ciuill in their nature and practise out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elderships First the Chancerie that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case no verely for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man but it appertaineth to conscience to giue the matter contended for vnto him to whō of right it is due You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them among whom this discipline reigneth for refusing to cancell a band if they thinke it vnconscionable or denying to acquitte a debte though it were with the creditors vndoing This forsooth is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office They leaue out election because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election but by that time the cardes bee dealt out you shall see all comes to one passe for whom they nominate he is thereby chosen if the people do not gainesay it and if they all doe there must also a cause be both alleadged and allowed by the Eldershippe before he can be reiected They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it I will aske therefore all the learned of that side where by any pregnant place they finde ordination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of
such other sophistications to plaister vp your assertions with vntrueth videlicet as these and such like As when you argue from your Puritane Idaea of gouernment out of the 14. Rom. All lawfull things are of faith all lawfull things of faith are warranted by the worde Ergo all lawfull things are warranted by the worde and consequently euery lawfull action in gouernment of the Church Where the conclusion is vniuersall in the third figure and Medius terminus videlicet lawfull things is in the conclusion contrarie to all rule of reasoning and yet the Demonstrator misseth of S. Pauls wordes which are Quicquid non ex fide peccatum est All that is not of faith is sinne Or where as you argue Hypotheticallie out of the 4. Ephes If all needfull gifts be appropriate to other ministeries then is the Archbishops ministerie vnlawfull but they are Ergo the Archbishops vnlawfull And T. C. before you argueth Categorically after this sort Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue gifts needfull but all those Ephes 4. and Cor. 1.12 haue gifts needfull Ergo they are onely sufficient Which is as good a conclusion as if one of you did argue thus Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture But all those things in the Aue Marie are contained in the Scriptures Ergo those things onely in the Aue Marie are sufficient to saluation Or as cunningly after this sort Those onely are men which are endued with reason But all the Costerdmongers in London are endued with reason Ergo the Costerdmongers in London are the onely men Or where you goe about to prooue that none is ordinable to the ministerie vnlesse he haue a benefice As was the 12. place for Mathias so is a certaine place for euery church officer But Mathias was not ordained till Iudas had made it voyd by hanging himselfe Ergo none is to be ordained before the place be voyd Adde vnto this by such maner of Resignation as hanging of himself Or when another Apostleship falleth voide Or when euery 12. place is voyd Or when Mathias commeth againe to be chosen into Iudas place The Argument leapeth from one predicament to another from the predicament Agere to Vbi They ordained him to an office Ergo to a place and a certaine place as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world Or when you will euince indefatigable residence of the Minister on the place out of the 1. Samuel 9. Elie the priest sate vpon a stoole by one of the postes of the Temple Ergo a Minister must be resident and belike must also as he did sit downe vpon a stoole Or this A Shepeheard must feede a Minister is a Shepeheard Ergo he must corporally and continually reside without naturall or legall dispensation for his absence As if you had sayd a Minister to be a Shepeheard otherwise then Metaphoricallie for a king also is a shepeheard but in a Metaphor who may law fully depute others to gouerne and to feede Or against non Residence out of the 1. Thes 1.17 v. Satan hindered mee Satan is the cause of non Residence Ergo vnlawfull where the Demonstrator maketh S. Paul to write good diuinitie Satan hindred me that is after the Demonstrators skill Satan caused me to doe an vngodly and vnlawfull thing whereas S. Paul his meaning is Satan raised persecution against me Or as fitly and perfectly after this sort for your popular elections and choise of ministers from the 8. Num. 9. v. The children of Israel put their handes vpon the heads of the Leuites The Leuites put their hands vpon the heads of bullocks Ergo the people must lay their hands on the heads of the Ministers Then adde vnto this The Ministers must lay their hands on the heads of bullocks T. C. taught you to reason thus from the ceremonie to the Gospell Et vitulo tu dignus hic Or when it pleaseth you to establish the presbyterie you interprete roundly Dic ecclesiae tell the Church that is the Eldership or Aldermanship of the Church yea and goe farther for the authoritie of this venerable Eldership out of the 49. Esay Kings and Queenes shall worship thee with their face towards the earth and shall licke vp the dust of thy feete c. Ergo great homage and honour shall be done to the Eldership Or in that place where you ouerthrow all standing superioritie of Ministers ouer Ministers you demonstrate after this fashion A bishop is called Episcopus An ordinarie Minister is called Episcopus Ergo all one Or a Bishop and an ordinarie Minister must haue one qualitie Ergo a parish Bishop and a diocoesan Bishop are all one thing Or all Bishops are equall in commission of the Ministerie Ergo equal in whatsoeuer commission of authoritie Or In the beginning for a while a Bishop and a priest or Minister were all one Ergo they must continue all one For in the Apostles time was the change and that same I am of Paul I am of Cephas was the occasion of the change and finally the decree of all the world at least as S. Hierome thinketh was the approbation of the change This were strange reasoning In the beginning Kings and priests were all one ergo they must continne all one In the beginning such was the simplicitie c. Great lords sonnes as Iacob c. kept their fathers sheepe ergo noble mens children mus◠keepe their fathers sheepe In the beginning they baptized in Riuers ergo men must carie their children downe to be christened in Riuers Or in another where you demonstrate agaynst the superioritie of Archbishops If the Pope be odious the Archbishop is odious also as who would say If the vnmeasurable and illimitable power be vnlawfull Ergo a modest and limited superioritie by law is vnlawfull also Finiti ad Infinitum nulla est proportio Or The Archbishops office and name is vnknowen to vs Puritanes Ergo vnknowen and vnheard of in the Church You shall well know that both the name and equitie of the name and thing is knowen and allowed of in Gods Church Or where it pleaseth you to say Caluin saieth there were gouernours of order not of superioritie Ergo this is true as if it were truly sayd all gouernment of superioritie is gouernment of disorder and that these were opposite Or in the demonstration To prooue Doctor and Pastor to be distinguished you dispute cunningly thus Male and female are distinct in sexe or kind Gal. 3. Ergo Doctor and Pastor must be distinct why not then in sex or kind with many other like Paralogismes as in your seuerall Chapters shal be vnfolded the whole Demonstration being nothing els but a bundle of absurdities Howbeit the booke thereof is a thing so preciously esteemed by the author himself so magnified by his folowers as worthy to be set vpon the highest pinacle of this Church new reformed for which cause hee giueth
himselfe such applause for writing of it glorifieth himselfe as if he were riding vpon the Cherubins with Luciferian pride or as if he were to draw downe as the Dragons taile all the starres in the firmament consent of scriptures Councils Fathers old and new onely to giue light to the cause in handling And concerning other mens bookes that haue oppugned the cause he speaketh scornefully and disdainfully as of the lord Archbishop and Deane of Sarum their bookes whose learned trauailes neither T. C. W. T. I. V. nor any ecclesiasticall discipliner of them all are able to confute vnlesse to raile in all their writings and snatch at one word in 40. leaues bee to answere a booke whose vertue notwithstanding shall shine when your canckred malice shall bee dead Touching that most reuerend Prelate you and your complices may in this licentious and outragious world speake pleasurablie Neuer yet good man spake but honour of him whom her Maiestie hath graciously vouchsafed vnder her to exercise Christian iurisdiction and authoritie whose Primacie is humilitie who is for his vertue no lesse honoured then loued whose learning angreth you vnto whom if you will make answere you must studie for more learning I am verily perswaded that as God in all ages raised excellent men instruments of his glorie to confute and banish out of the Church heresie as Athanasius against the Arrians Augustine against the Donatists Augustine and Hierome against the Pelagians in former times In our latter times bishop Iewell against the false Catholikes and Semipelagians so God hath stirred vp this learned man against the false brethren and Aerians of our time to hammer and beate downe the schisme and singularitie of Puritanes And therefore I doe humbly thanke God that it hath pleased his glorious maiestie in heauen and her excellent maiestie here on earth to reserue him to these times I speake it in the feare of God had not her Maiesties principall spirite of wisedome illumined with Gods trueth together with the Heroicall prudent spirites of certaine honorable personages and industrious learned men affecting a prouident care of the posteritie of the Church patronized this Church-discipline your priuate spirites of new-fangled discipline happily had more preuailed against these godly and religious proceedings in the Church nay to the vtter remoouing of the Gospell by such confusion and Anarchie Imagine that the externall face of that Church where you might see so many thousand Superintendents so many Elderships aduanced in or aboue the Church to make orders and to censure at pleasure where the people giue voices the Laitie lay on handes the maiestie of the Prince excluded from all swaie in the presbyterie all antiquitie forlorne all Councils vtterly repealed doctrine deuided from exhortation Laie-men Deacons of the Church parish bishops parrot preachers the Vniuersities disgraced of the priuiledge of granting degrees Cathedrall Churches by greedie wolues spoiled all courtes of Iustice ouerthrowen or impaired by the Consistoriall court of Elders and as it were all the trees of the garden of Eden plucked vp to implant Sambucus the faire goodly Elders or Elder tree Or els what may be the fantasie or imaginarie forme of this reformation in matters of Ecclesiasticall gouernment They themselues skill not or when you haue supplanted or ouerturned or turned out those Ecclesiasticall Senators and gouernours which we haue whence shall the supplie bee of able gouernours from beyond the seas that is impossibilitie From your selues that is matter of difficultie From vs againe that were egregious and ridiculous follie Might it not fare with vs as it sometimes did with the Commons of the Citie of Capua the Commons bare a deadly hate to the magistrates and gouernours of the Citie Vpon a time the councell of the Citie being in consultation of their affaires one Pacunius as Liuie writeth Homo vsus malis artibus he was not the best man maketh an insurrection with the Commons and suddenly shutteth all the Magistrates into one place and with sufficient garrison keepeth the place and held them all as prisoners within giueth farther this counsell to the Commons to draw them foorth one by one and to put euery one to death and to put others in their places to create new and better gouernours of the Citie This aduise pleased them well He commaundeth in order the first to be drawen foorth to execution as a man woorthie of death euery base and tumultuarie varlet crieth out he is woorthie of an hundred deaths let him bee shortened by the shoulders The noble Senator whiles he is to lay downe his necke vpon the blocke Pacuuius as chiefe speaker pawseth on the matter Sirs before wee put this man to death it were good we did nominate another to occupie his place this noble Citie may not stand without a Senate That counsell also seemeth pleasing vnto them they streight proceed on to the nomination and election of a Senatour One man nameth one that man nameth another each man as he best fansieth maketh a seuerall nomination no sooner any man is named but a 1000. exceptions are taken to the partie the person named is thought vnwoorthy either for basenesse of his parentage or vilenesse of his trade or meanenesse of his fortunes or lacke of this or lacke of that the sedition thereupon is dissolued of it selfe the election of a new set of officers is interrupted euery one plainly seeth his owne follie and temeritie Semblablie if like power were giuen as in the Preface of your Demonstration you pray for which God forbid to shut vp into a corner our Reuerend Fathers and Ecclesiasticall magistracie and you readie vpon the change to transforme our Bishops into your Surueillants or ouerwatchers our Conuocations and Chapters into your maruelous Classicall conferences and Synodes all the whole Hierarchie of the Church into your Tetrarchie of Doctor Pastor Elder and Deacon for if you did affect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to haue no superioritie then were you farre worse then the Capuans If I say your mortall or immortall hatred against the state ecclesiasticall caried you to extinguish this order established in the Church alreadie blessed God how would you proceed to the choice of a new Senate Ecclesiasticall and their inuestiture whiles a man might heare you say of the new Doctor or Pastor Elder or Deacon This man hath zeale but no learning that man learning but no zeale the other neither zeale nor learning such a man is factious and full of deadly poison he a base crafts-man or artisan another is auaricious and would carie away our bag T. C. will ouertoppe all or loueth the preheminences as Diotrephes each man taking exception vnto other Doe ye not foresee or rather doe you not see as in a glasse the image or bodily shape of the imagined state which you so impetuouslie striue for and we striue against and striue will in a good cause vnto the death Or what need we striue the strife will be with and within your selues when