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A93655	The opening of Master Prynnes new book, called A vindication: or, light breaking out from a cloud of differences, or late controversies. Wherein are inferences upon the Vindication, and antiqueres to the queres; and by that, the way a little cleared to a further discovery of truth in a church-order, by a conference or discourse. / By John Saltmarsh, preacher at Brasteed in Kent. Published according to order.	Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647.	1645 (1645)	Wing S493; Thomason E305_22; ESTC R200328	25,183	50

Of the Vindication of the four Questions P. What of that C. Some of the learned for the Presbyteriall way are divided about setling and know not how to settle the great Ordinance of the Lords Supper upon the Kingdom or Nation P. How Any of our judgement divided I will not beleeve that Surely they are not like your Independent Brethren to crumble into divisions and severall opinions C. Look you now how you are mistaken I tell you again The vindication-Vindication-Book whose Author is as famous and able as your way affords hath writ a large Tractate for mixt Communions or Sacraments against some of that way that are against them P. Beleeve me if it be so I shall be at a stand I thought all of our side that had been for Presbytery had been all of a minde and none had broken out into Factions but they of the other side C. I love not this word Faction on any side yet till we see more I would not misinterpret any willingly You shall hear the reasons on both sides gathered up very narrowly without the passion for I would neither have passion to object nor to confute any thing but meerly Scripture and Reason P. I pray you what are the differences C. A reverend Brother of the Presbyteriall way answers certain Questions of anothers of that way which he it seems had propounded to the State to be considered on in the setling of things over the Kingdom and some others too in certain Printed Treatises have gone about to confute them so as his Questions which as he professes openly were writ onely for the advancement of Reformation were interpreted by those of the same way with him as an enemy of Reformation as an adversary and an obstruction to the work of Reformation and settlement of Church-Discipline as he saith P. O strange one of them thus censured by their own and by those whose advancement he hath sought so much in opposing himself against the new wayes of Independency and Separation as he calls them But well how differ they C. He holds in his Book of Vindication divers particulars concerning Church-Discipline and censures and the Administration of the Lords Supper wherein the other Brethren of the Presbyteriall-way differ from him As first He holds there is no precept nor president in Scripture for the suspending of any Member of a Congregation from the Lords Supper who is not at the same time excommunicated from the Church and all other Ordinances as well some of the other hold the contrary or mistake as he saith 2. That Matth. 18. 16 17. If thy Brother trespasse c. is not meant of the Church nor of excommunication nor suspension from the Sacrament which the other hold 3. That 1 Cor. 5. 5. to deliver such a one to Satan is not meant of suspension or excommunication from the Sacrament which the other hold 4. That 1 Cor. 5. 11. with such a one no not to eat is not meant of spiritual eating which the other hold 5. That Numb. 9. 1 10 11. is not meant of excluding any by way of Type from the Sacrament in acts of suspension but of totall putting out from all Ordinances for legall uncleannesses not spiritual 6. That Judas received the Supper or Sacrament as well as the other Apostles and that the Sop that was given him before he went out was after the Bread was distributed which some of the other deny 7. That the Minister hath fully discharged himself if he give warning to unworthy Communicants of the danger and then give it which the other hold not 8. That Ministers may as well refuse to Preach the Word to such unexcommunicated grosse impenitents for fear of partaking in their sin as to administer the Sacrament to them and they hear damnation in the one as well as eat damnation in the other That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is as well a converting Ordinance as any other being reckoned amongst the Means of Grace and so to be administred to any unexcommunicated Member of a Congregation which some of the other deny That they put groundlesse differences betwixt Preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments 9. That the putting out of the Synagogue in John 9. 21 34 35. is no good proof of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament 10. That the Authors Scriptures quoted in his fourth Question are not rightly applyed as his opposites say P. And are these the differences fully C. Yea excepting the Proofs on both sides for which I refer you to the Books themselves which all together are large P. But how conclude they C. The Author of the Vindication doth fairly shew them that they contend for what he doth grant them with advantage and yet they quarrel with him for denying it as he saith P. Methinks these are strange mistakes one of another and amongst these of our Presbyteriall side too C. And he hopes the Parliament will consider and take care that the Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing P. But how will some of our Ministers take this C. I know not that but I like him well in this but he goes upon one ground more then all the rest P. What is that C. That the very ground upon which divers of the more moderate and tender in the Presbyteriall way go is the the ground of all the growing and spreading of Schism and Separation Anabaptism and other Errours tending to them which yet they beleeve they so much preach against a strange mistake with them as he observes P. If it be so how pitifully are those Ministers mistaken in their own grounds and the best of them too to be so mistaken is the more to be wondered for I count the tenderest of them the best but this is yet a secret to me C. Yea and to them it may seem so too but I shall unfold the mystery of this Vindication-Book if I mistake not the suspending scandalous persons from the Lords Supper and some other thoughts of pertaking in their sins is it seems deemed by this Book Some principles or positions of Separation which if fomented as the Author insinuates may in time subvert the other principles of Presbytery as indeed they may being something inconsistent and of a better and more spirituall nature and I am of his opinion for I would have all of a colour and constitution All light or all darknesse and beleeve it your principles of a purer way will not long incorporate with any other the Ark and Dagon will not stand together and the way to overthrow the inventions of men is by taking in some principles of the Truth into traditions what hath made the Popish Hierarchy go down Not its own principles of Idolatry Will-worship and Tyranny But when there were some takings in of Reformation-principles as when they would go from Popery to Prelacy Popery fell much

experiences are these I question the truth of all such conversion who have onely such experience as this because that such experience crosses the word and way of the Spirit and those are no right experiences which are not Scripture-experiences But some had not been converted if debarred from it This is a strange assertion against that of the Word The spirit bloweth where and when it listeth and some are called at one hour of the day some at another and how is it clear that the Sacrament converted such or not some other act of the Word at that time or about it Shew me that Christian among so many that can evidence his act of conversion meerly barely singly immediately from the act of communicating and then there is something proved to justifie an experience of conversion at such a time but still not to justifie the Sacrament an Ordinance Conversion and so to be used Vindication fol. 46. Is any Master or Parent so unnatural and sottish to deny his children or servant wholesom meat to feed their bodies And shall any Minister be so irrational or inconsiderate in denying the spiritual food Inference Whence we may infer That the Vindication takes all unconverted persons by this comparison to be alive and spiritually quickned or else it were as he says unnatural sottish irrational to give them food And if they be unconverted as he pleads for then who is so unnatural sottish irrational or inconsiderate as to give them any Men onely hold forth food to the living and not to the dead Vindication fol. 46. Physitians had an errour to deny drink to men in Feavers which murdred Thousands but now they see this deadly mistake and correct it So let not this errour creep into Divinity and Divines in denying the cup to such Feaverish Christians burning in the flames of sin and lust Inference Whence we may infer That there is in the unconverted a spiritual Feaverish thirst after Christ as there is in the sick after drink But oh Doth the same fountain send forth sweet and bitter waters Are there any such spiritually-feaverish desires in souls meerly carnal and unregenerate Can the burning in the flames of sin and lust breath any such heavenly longings Can there be any desires but sinful desires after Christ Can any but a soul like Davids pant after the water-brooks Are the flames of sin and lust like that heavenly fire in the bosom which the Prophet speaks on Do the hearts of any burn within them but when Christ is in their company and when spiritually enflamed by him Are the kindlings of sin like the kindlings upon the Altar Is the fire in the kitchin like the fire in the Temple Are the burnings of hell like the burnings of heaven If not Why are we told of men burning in the flames of sin and lust after Christ The Doctrine is not more unwarrantable then the expression is uncomely Vindication fol. 47. A Peradventure we may receive or do good by such a particular Ordinance or action is a sufficient encouragement for us to adventure on it in other cases let it be also warrantable in such cases where they have at least a probability a possibility a peradventure it may be and a Who knoweth but it may convert Inference Whence we may infer That the sum of all the former Arguments now summed up you see will reach no higher then to a Peradventure or to a may be And whether these be such Scripture-grounds or assurances for administrations of the Ordinances of God I appeal to all the world of believers who knows that May bees and Peradventures are not to be allowed any place in the practical obedience of Christians but clear demonstrative solid and certain Maximes or Principles for Whatsoever is not of faith is sin and He that doubteth is damned and Happie is he that condemneth not himself in what he doth And who knnws not that what is done upon May bees and Peradventures cannot be done of faith nor perswasion Vindication fol. 51. That the Presbytery or Classis may order a Suspension from the Sacrament or any other Ordinances provided that this power be claimed by no Divine Right but by Parliamenry Authority and Humane Institution Inference Whereby we may infer That what is not to be warranted in the Word yet if Humane Authority will undertake it it shall not be excepted against by the Vindication But where is there that Authority that will adventure so far to make up any thing in spiritual Administrations that there is no Spiritual nor Scripture-warrant for I am sorry to see the Vindication set the Parliamentary Authority so neer to Humane Invention of whom we are perswaded better things then to take the Patronage of any such thing which is not warrantable by the Word but rather to suspend all then to settle any thing so close to the highest Administrations in the Word which is of meer Humane Invention Nay I will prove this to be the very Maxime and practice of that honourable Senate who have therefore rooted out Episcopacy professed to the most high God in a Covenant against all Will-worship and Traditions of men and therefore let us not roll such a golden ball before Authority to put them out of their way after Christ who have followed him so close hitherto both in their searchings in the Word and in their tendernesse of persecution lest they might scourge Christ out of his own Temple and not know it Vindication fol. 57. The practical power of godlinesse is generally more evidently visible and the lives of the generality of the people more strict pious lesse scandalous and licentious in our English Congregations where there hath been powerful preaching without the practice of Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament then in the Reformed Churches of France Germany or Scotland Our English Ministers and Prostants generally excel all others notwithstanding their strict Discipline Inference Whence we may infer That the Vindication though it pretend in the general or face of it to be for Presbytery yet it is very clear that in aspersing the Government of all those Reformed Kingdoms where the practice and power of it hath been it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world and though it pull not down the Government quite yet it weakens the Posts or Judgements of men on which it stands I name not here the other Texts that the Vindication hath pull'd out of the building of the Presbyterial Government for the taking out the Scriptures are like the pulling out the nalls and pins from the house and a loosning of the frame This I observe because the Vindication professes so for that Government though I suppose many such friends in time might do as much harm if not more then those of the Separation whom he calls their enemies Surely I do believe France Germany Scotland had rather such Books were not writ in their behalf that opens the evil corruption and

THE OPENING OF Master Prynnes new Book called A VINDICATION OR Light breaking out from a Cloud of Differences or late Controversies WHEREIN Are Inferences upon the Vindication and Antiqueres to the Queres and by that the way a little cleared to a further discovery of TRUTH in a CHURCH-ORDER by a Conference or Discourse By JOHN SALTMARSH Preacher at Brasteed in Kent Published according to Order London Printed for G. Calvert at the signe of the Black Spred-Eagle at the West-End of S. Pauls 1645. To the Honourable Phillip Skippon Major General of the Army raised for the King and Parliament under the Command of Sir Thomas Fairfax General Noble SIR SVpposing you may take the Book called the Vindication by Master Prynne into your hand I desire that this Discourse may be in your other hand as occasion serves If the Lord hath revealed any thing in this Discourse to enlighten the darknesse of this present Controversie it is onely from him who is the Father of Lights who carries on his to a more excellent way till we may with open face behold the Glory of Jesus Christ and be changed from glory to glory Sir The thing I onely contend for is that which the Gospel and Spirit calls for Whatsoever things are pure whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are of good report Sir The ingagement of private respects which are upon me towards you and being likewise a partaker of some labours of yours in the Lord which are abroad as that of Promises c. The best treasure we have in this life hath drawn this from me The Lord who hath wounded you binde you up and lead you on to the glorious Truths for if I mistake not our Controversie is but this in these times some would walk more close with Christ some can be content like Peter to walk at more distance and follow him afar off and to stand warming themselves with the multitude in the Common-Hall And let the Word judge betwixt us which is of best report Sir Yours in the things of Jesus Christ John Saltmarsh To the Reader SOme Scriptures in difference betwixt the Brethren I leave untouched I would not engrosse anothers Controversie to my self more then I needs must and the present Truth or Light I go by presseth me to do I enter not into this Controversie to make one of either side amongst the learned Antagonists but rather by opening their Difference to themselves and others to draw both them and all of their way whom the Lord will adde to a purer way both of Church and Order I have no Libraries beside me to put into my Margin neither dare I write in the authority of man but of God and not in the words too much which mans wisdom teacheth though I still have more of my self in what I do then I ought It is by way of Conference I have writ and I rather did it that I might the better personate divers to themselves that read it that they may learn to be more peaceable to Brethren of dissenting judgements while I hold them the Glasse If any of the Glory of Christ break out by this Let him have the glory who hath chosen the weak things of the World A DISCOURSE Betwixt two Friends P. C. C Well met I know you are for setling Church-Government and Sacraments P. I tell you we shall never be at any Peace till then till all be setled and the Kingdom rid of these Independents Anabaptists and Brownists C. Be not so hot will you call in your Neighbours to quench your house when it is on fire and when all is done give them a beating for their pains the Tribes did not thus with one another the Reubenites and the other would not rest in the Land which the Lord gave them till the Lord had given their Brethren rest as he had given them P. I tell you they are called a company of Hereticks and Schismaticks in every Book and Pamphlet that comes abroad I am sure men of understanding and learning and many an ancient Professor hath no better a name for them C. Yea I perceive so much but the railings and evil-speakings prevail not with me against any but their own Authors For the wisdom which is from above is first pure then peaceable and the Angels which are greater in power and might bring not railing accusation but the Lord rebuke thee even the Lord And for any Professors you speak on Who were so bitter against the Christians as your ancient and zealous Jews You know the Prophecy Your old men shall dream dreams and your young men shall see visions and the first shall be last and the last first P. What Would you have me speak well of these that so many speak against C. I would not wish you to speak well of any thing but what you are perswaded in from the Word but I would onely desire you not to speak ill though you speak not well the Apostle rebukes those that speak evil of the things they know not But I have many Reasons I shall now acquaint you with if you will but have patience and not upon a notion or name of Heresie and Schism shut up your Windows as against a new light Meteor or some Blazing-Star as too many do we are bidden try the spirits and prove all things Friend be not so discourteous to any notion that is a stranger it is besides the Apostles rule be not sayes he forgetfull to entertain strangers for some have entertained Angels unawares And this is one Reason further till more come we are but coming out of Babylon you and we were but the other day with the vail of Prelacy upon our hearts and we are but in healing like the blinde-man and because yet we see men like Trees shall we therefore judge them to be so and not stay till our eyes be opened that we see better P. Have you no better Reasons to convince me These I confesse are something and I will think on them C. Yea look with a single eye upon their principles and take them in their own single Positions not as the world Prints them or reports them this is much a wanting on these times you know what was said of the Christians to Paul As for this sect every where it is spoken against And I see no reason Why other opinions which have been held by some Author of one opinion should be all charged upon that one for his sake which neither in it self nor any just consequence from it can be proved of any right to belong unto it And if there be any Tares with the Wheat they are of the enemies sowing as Christ said to make us go by and not reap there where the Wheat is so scant and the Tares so many P. But O methinks if things were setled about the Church once C. Yea but how will you settle P. How As it is agreed on C. Agreed on What have you not heard of the new Book

in the power of it and so when from Prelacy they went off to Presbytery Prelacy fell and so on If you make any remove from the common principles of this Presbytery into any of the way or parts of the Separation your Presbytery will down too because it takes in some purer principles then as we may gather from the Vindication Book it will well bear P. But if these be then the common Principles of this Presbyteriall way as he would have it to communicate in Ordinances thus mixedly and to suspect no uncleannesse in any spiritual Communion from persons so communicating though of never so unreformed a life excepting onely some pretended formall flashy apparences of Faith and Repentance put on and off by the Communicants as occasion serves I shall have I think no such good thoughts as I had of that way C. But the grounds are yet further laid down in the Book that unmixt Communions and suspending from the Sacrament are grounds of Schism and that the teaching of these formerly through ignorance or incogitancy are now to be taught and written and preached against P. I perceive then in a word That the main thing the Vindication-Book drives at is to place Presbytery upon such a mixed uniformity in the partaking of Ordinances that there should be no act of suspension or separation practised in their Church lest the ground of separation get in and they that make conscience to separate or suspend in some particulars it implies they may go on to a further separation till upon more degrees of purity in communicating they go off from all kinde of mixt communicatings in the constituting as well Churches as Ordinances and Administrations and so at length become either Congregationall or of the other way But many of us took such of the Presbyteriall way as writ and taught for a pure Reformation in partaking of Ordinances for the better according to their light And it seems they are but novices as we may gather from the Vindication-Book and are ignorant of his Presbyteriall secret or mystery of uniformity and unmixt communicating according to the grounds there Well I am yet of the purer side I like not this mystery if the way to keep out Schism be of such a kinde as draws with it an unavoidable necessity of partaking with all sorts of sinners except onely for some present affected passions of Faith and Repentance and a Toleration of all sorts of that kinde except by excommunication where in some places whole Parishes and almost in all Parishes many must stand either excommunicated by the Classis or Presbytery or Reformed which is impossible or as frequent partakers of Ordinances spiritual fellowship as the best and purest which is intolerable C. Indeed I am glad you come off so well already I will not meddle with the present state of some of these first particulars in difference I named to you but leave them to the Authors but come to some of the more questionable For that Controversie betwixt the Brethren which is Whether Judas received or not I know there are divers Leaves of Paper writ upon it in the Vindication and many learned men are quoted and Scriptures brought in on both sides and harmoniously compared but since the Lord left it so disputable as some imagine we must not do in such doubtfull sayings as those Disciples did who because Christ said of John If I will that he tarry till I come what is that to thee and it was reported amongst the Disciples that that Disciple should not die though Christ said not he should not die but onely what if I will that he tarry So if the Lord hath not clearly said that Judas was there why goeth it so amongst the Disciples as if he were there without all contradiction but if he were and Christ gave it to Judas as for my part I make it not any such ground though he and all others do because it will not be clear then that he gave it to Judas as a wicked man or a formall Disciple for I know Christ administred then as an outward Dispenser to the Church or chief Pastour and in his Body unglorified whereby he kept close to the analogy of visible Administration of Ordinances and in President and Precept for the future to his Churches for all ages and so all their puzling may be at an end I will now acquaint you further with some Arguments or Inferences from the Vindication which I have to strengthen you Vindication Fol. 36. THat no Minister not knowing the present change or inclination of the heart of any or whether God by this very duty may not really convert him ought to administer the Sacrament Inference Whence we may infer That all sorts of sinners never so prophane and abominable yet upon any present affected counterfeited formall pretence of Faith and Repentance ought to partake in all things of the most spiritual nature and fellowship and withall of the most spiritual and sincere profession contrary to these Scriptures 1 Pet. 2. 9. 2 Cor. 6. 14 15 16 17 18. Isai. 52. 11. Gal. 5. 9. Vindication Fol. 37. The Brethrens Reason That in the Sacrament there is a neerer application of the Word and Promises in particular of the right and interest in them more then in the Word preached which the Vindication saith is just like the late Archbishops of Canterburies doctrine for bowing at the Altar as Gods great place of presence Inference Whence we may infer That the Vindication doth very uncharitably compare Doctrines and Principles viz. his Brethrens with those of Prelacy and his Brethren with the grossest of Prelats and their Principles of spiritual Administration and Communion with those of a most Idolatrous and external nature which is contrary to these Scriptures Jam. 4. 12. Matth. 7. 1 3 c. 1 Pet. 3. 8. Vindication Fol. 37. That the Minister administring the Sacrament to any known impenitent sinners yet under the notion of penitent and repenting sinners for that time discharges himself Inference Whence we may infer That a Minister ought to comply with the Hypocrisies pretences compliances forms of any notorious scandalous or impenitent sinner at that time onely in the apparition or resemblance of a Saint and a Woolf in Sheeps clothing contrary to these Scriptures 1 Tim. 5. 21 22. Matth. 15. 26. 2 Tim. 3. 5. 1 Thes. 5. 22. 1 Cor. 6. 16. Vindication Fol. 37 38. That the words of Institution in the Sacrament The Body of Christ which was broken and the Blood of Christ shed for you is not of any divine Institution but humane onely though warrantably practised Inference Whence we may infer That he in affirming the Institution to be onely humane and yet Warrantable is not onely an impeaching of their worship of God in the highest and most spiritual Admirations of Will-worship and humane invention and want of conformity to the Rule or Word but even a flat contradiction in a Scripture sense because he addes

grievances of their Government so much But I shall argue further What need such comparing of the mixt Congregations of several Kingdoms ours and theirs Surely they are all corrupt enough and mixt enough and a Law for all sorts of sinners to communicate as the Vindication would have would not much more reform because it would then be a kinde of Church-priviledge to be a sinner or a scandalous person and to be something notoriously wicked would be a way of enrighting them to Church-Ordinances according to the Principles of Vindication however some fair pretences and Colours are laid on that we should believe the contrary But what of all this I believe there is another reason why the Government hath brought forth no more power of godlinesse upon the Kindoms then the Vindication observes because neither the Parishes are constituted nor yet the Government according to Gospel-order yet I honour them as Believers and Brethren in the Lord according to their light Yet I observe another secret why the preaching of the Word thrives better and reforms more then the Government in these Kingdoms because that the Preaching of the Word is an Ordinance of the Lord and when preached or held forth to ungodly scandalous and notorious sinners is but according to its right order of Institution so preached the end of the Lord is but fully and clearly served because the Word in the ministery of it is appointed for a converting Ordinance but the Government and Discipline being not instituted as a converting Ordinance primarily but for a people already converted and brought in it cannot be accompanied with such power from heaven because it is not managed according to pure Gospel-order nor upon a people rightly prepared and fitted so as the fault is not because there is a Government as the Vindication observes but not the pure Government nor the Government rightly placed And for his Charge against the purer Congregations as I know not any such doings amongst them so I will make no Apologie for them because that would bring them within the compasse of something like a crime and I know nothing but well by them The New Queres Folio 51 Of the Vindication propounded to the Honourable PARLIAMENT and ASSEMBLY Quere 1. WHether a bare Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament not backed with Authority of the Civil Magistrate be not like to prove an impotent and invalid and ineffectual means Whether it be not a far better way in point of Conscience and Prudence to admit scandalous persons to the Sacrament not actually excommunicated though they thereby eat and drink judgement to themselves then to deprive any to whom it really belongs Antiquere 1. Whether is there any excommunication or no For the Vindication questions it in calling it an invalid thing and if so How can any such thing be setled at all as an Ordinance in the Church Whether ought Authority to joyn it self with any thing so questionable as the Vindication would have it Since nothing hath proved more fatal Whether excommunication being granted be any such bare thing as the Vindication speaks on so impotent invalid and ineffectual without being Authorized from a power from men And whether the Ministers are to strike with the Magistrates Sword Whether all the differences about Excommunication be not from the want of true Church-constitution And whether a National Church be not too wide for the Ordinances and the Scabberd too big for the Sword And whether Solomons Temple and Christs be all of a largenesse so that one golden Reed will measure both Whether the old Temple that had Windows of narrow Lights be any pattern for the new Whether any thing of Prudence As admitting scandalous persons to eate their own damnation as the Vindication saith Rather then to deprive them to whom it really belongs be any Scripture-way of arguing which forbids us not to do evil that good may come thereby Whether any sin or offence be committed in such cases of deprivation of scandalous persons seeing though it may really belong to them yet the Church nor Dispenser not knowing any such thing nor judging but onely by the Rule of visible walking to the Word and the Rule of evidences there for Administration of Ordinances can faithfully administer but accordingly for they that walk according to this Rule peace be on them and on the Israel of God Whether the Law of God in this be not as equitable as the Law of Man which judges not of secrets nor takes cognizance of things unknown Whether it be not rather the scandalous persons onely sin who if he have a real interest will not live in the evidence of it nor walk by the Rule of Administrations that he may partake Quere 2. Fol. 51. Whether the suspending such persons from the Sacrament being no Ordinance of Christ without a totall Suspension will not be a means rather to harden And whether their admission be not rather a more probable way of reclaiming being accompanied with serious Admonitions Exhortations publike and serious Reprehensions Reasons 1. Because that such persons are more hardned by it totall exclusion onely working shame 2. Because against their receiving like Italians in Lent they will be holy for a day or two and make vows c. and may be so converted 3. Many then will read c. which would not do so before in an Hypocriticall conscience and the Sacrament is a Covenant which binds all receivers to reform 4. The Sacraments are so accompanied with Examinations Exhortations c. that ten to one would be converted by such admission rather then by suspension therefore Christ when he came to save sinners permitted them familiarly to him and his Ordinances Antiquere 2. Whether Excommunication according to the Vindication grounds being a questionable Ordinance as well as suspension one of them may not be as well made use on as the other Suspension as well as Excommunication upon his grounds Whether the Admonitions Exhortations Reprehensions Examinations be such as Christ appointed to make the Sacrament an Ordinance for all scandalous sinners to come to or rather to quicken and spiritualize the worthy receivers who receive according to the visible Rule of Administrations as the whole strain of Scripture precept and practise speak Whether all the three first Reasons presuppose not such a Church-constitution for Ordinances and partakers as the Scriptures never speak on For where is there any such constituted Church of scandalous and Italianated persons who were constituted according to the rule and for Corinth and the rest that had such bad Members they are not examples in that of gathering or constituting or administring but reforming as the Apostle who calls them to the rule of the Word This one mistake hath deceived many Whether Christ in permitting scandalous sinners to converse with him familiarly when he was here in the flesh be any rule of admitting all such sinners now to the mystery of his spiritual Ordinances And whether there be