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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88157	An answer to nine arguments. Written by T. B. Wherein is plainly from the scriptures shewed, the weaknesse of his arguments, whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministry of England true; as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministry. Written long since by that faithfull servant of God and his countrey, John Lilburne Lieftenant [sic] Collonell: and now published for further good, by a well-willer to him and the truth.	Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657.	1645 (1645)	Wing L2081; Thomason E25_7; ESTC R212845	46,842	48

instituted for it spirituall matter the particulars of which are to be Beleevers as I have already largely proved from them only and alone he will accept Service and homage Esay 43.21 51.7 for they alone no others have true right to take his name in their mouth to declare his Statutes to meddle with his Law Testimony Psal 50.16 Prov. 15 8.9 21.27 Esay 8.16 Mar. 4.34 also instituted for his Church a spirituall Worship spirituall Lawes spirituall Government spirituall Ordinances spirituall Administrations which none upon pain of Rebellion against Jesus Christ the sonne of God Wisedome of his father are to adde to or detract from Againe in the second place it is true that many of those Churches which Christ in his new Testament instituted as the Church of Corinth for one in processe of time became corrupt and had grosse Offenders in her yet though at the first Constitution of the Church of Corinth Rome and others did consist of Saints by calling and sanctified in Christ Jesus Rom. 1.7 Cor. 1.1.2 Gal. 1.22 that is to say such as by their outward conversation did declare that they were united by faith to Jesus Christ and what though afterward they had corruptions in them yet that makes nothing at all for you for first I put you to prove that ever your Ch. was true which if you cannot doe to plead that corruptions may be in a true Church will doe you no good nor serve nothing to your purpose nor be no way advantagious to your Ch. which alway even from the first day hath been false antichristian and what though Corinth had offenders in her did God winke at them or did Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles connive at their wickednes no for he commaunded them to cast out the incestious person or give him over to Satan Epist 1. chp. 5. as he himselfe did Hymeneus Alexander that so they may learne not to blaspheame 1 Tim. 1.20 which casting out into the world under the Gospell is as great a spirituall punishment as killing of the body was to the Jewes corporall Also he commaunds them that if any of their members were a fornicatur or coveteous or an Idolater or a railer or a drunkard or an extortioner that they should avoyde him and not keep companie with him no not so much as to eate with him ver 11. But now if this rule should be narrowly observed in your church as it ought to be in all true visible churches of Jesus Christ I wonder with whom a man should have any spirituall society or communion sure I am not with one amongst ten thousand in your Ch. no nor with one at all it being in every respect so grosly papisticall antichristian idolatrous Againe as for that place which in the 2 Cor. 12. last end you cite where he saith that he was afraid that he should be troubled among them not finding them such as he would and that he should be humbled among them in bewayling mamy which have sinned already and have not repented of their uncleanenes fornication and lasciviousnes which they had committed but if you read the next chap. you shall see how he threatneth them and tels them that at his comeing againe 〈◊〉 th●n though before he had vsed gentilenes and mildnes yet now he will not spare them but exercize warrantable sharpne●s and rigour towards them accoding to that power which the Lord had given unto him to edificati●n and not to destruction seing as he saith he can doe nothing against the truth but for the truth so that you se though there were corruptions amongst them and grosse sinners yet there is no conniving at it nor no tollerating of it but sharp and bitter reproving of it And as for the rest of those other Scriptures which you cite I answer to them as before and grant that there was grosse corruptions in many of the Churches recorded in the New Testament yet I say and affirme it was their sin to suffer for which God admonished and threatned them as you may read in the 2. 3 Chap. of the Rev. which became they continued constant in their sin and would not reforme and amend themselves as they ought and had power to have done God hath taken away his Candlesticke o● heavenly state from them Whose examples serve for all other Churches warning for God hath cast them all off and unchurched them taking the fo feture of their heavenly Charter as is to be seen at this day Yea also the Chur. in and at Rome it selfe though once the Faith thereof was spoken of to the praise of the Saints therein throughout the whole World Rom. 4.8 Yet they also are cast off and are now no Church of Christ but is become long and many years since the seat of Antichrist the man of sinne that sonne of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himselfe above all that is called God 2 Thess 2.3.4 that is to say above all Civill Magistrates yea Emperours kings and Princes which the Spirit of God in the Booke of the Psalmes calleth Gods And is become the Habitation of Divells and the hold of every fowll spirit and a Cage for every uncleane and hatefull Bird to rest in with whom all Nations have been made drunke and still are with the wine of the wrath of her spirituall Fornication with whom the Merchants of the Earth are growen rich through the ahoundance of her delicacy●s Rev. 18.2.3 that is to say her Officers which the Spirit of God calleth here Merchants by virtue of their Offices have got fat and rich benefices which they call Spirituall Promotions by which they are mightily swelled up with Pride Venerie and Luxury but their day is shortly a comming wherein they shall cry with weeping and wailing for the finall destruction of the great spirituall City of Babilon saying Alas Alas for in one hower she is made desolate naked Ver 15.16.17.18 For she doth been drunke with the Blood of the Saints and of the Martyrs of Jesus Christ which she hath spilt in great aboundance like water upon the ground but the day is almost come wherein the Justice of God will render her a full recompence with Vengence and Fury Wherefore to you all Gods people that yet is in her Come out of her depart from her for if you stay in her you will partake of her sinnes in dsobeying Gods commands and so will be lyable and open to his Plagues wrath and Fury for her sinnes have reached unto the Heavens God hath remembred her Iniquities Therefore let us call together the Archers valiant Spear-men of the Lord and according to our duty Let us set our selves in Array against her campe rownd about her shoot at her without mercy and let none that belong unto her escape your spirituall Darts but let us reward her even as she hath rewarded us double unto her double according to her workes in the

stripling with his sheepheards staffe and a company of smooth stones flung out of a slinge overcame and destroyed that mighty Giant who thought none so stronge as himselfe 1 Sam. 15. and justifieth an one are you and will prove to be for you fight for the spirituall Philistims the enemies of the Lord namely for Antichrist and his Kingdome and you send forth great bragges boastes against the truth of God amongst your ignorant acquaintance but indeed they are nothing but wind and chaffe not able to stand before the breath of Gods sacred truth which his weake servants for their conquering weapons make use of as I have already and shall more fully by the strength of God make it appeare in my following lines and therefore to confute your Argument and lay it even with the ground I will bring your owne Writers weapons who were members in the Church of England who doe not plead for Separation but for Reformation therein read but the Lincolne-shire Ministers Abridgment and Mr. Cartwrights Defence against Bishop Whiteguift sometime Pope of Lambeth and Dr. Ames his Fresh Suite against Humaine Ceremonies and you shall see your worship proved to be Antichristian and none of Christs but of the Divels invention Also read the Scots Dispute printed in Holland the last Summer and you shall see the greatest part of your worship and all your humaine Ceremonies with which you serve God proved to be Idols as your holy garments and your invented gestures of bowing and cringing and your kneling at the act of receiving the Sacrament c. Also read a litle Booke of Mr. Damfords sometime Minister of Colmanstreet in London against the Service And noble Dr. Bastwickes book called The Vanity and Impiety of the old Letany and you shall see the Wickednes Sinfulnes and Vngodlines of it set forth to the utmost for there it is proved to be an Idoll which as he there faith sends more soules to Hell in a yeare then all the prophanenesse deboystnesse wickednesse and ungodlynes in the Kingdome doth besides and that nothing could have been invented either by the Divell or the Pope for a greater meanes to pull downe the Kingdome of Christ and for the maintaining and building up the Kingdome of Antichrist and therefore I put you upon it to Answer their writings and confute the Arguments of your own Authors which have fully proved that your worship is no divine but humane worship and therefore not a true but a false worship Now if you should deny that your humaine invented diabollicall Booke of Common prayer and your sacred Ceremonies as your Lords and masters the Bishops cals them are not the worship with which you in the Church of England worship and serve God the Booke of Common prayer it selfe will confute you for there in the Preface before that Booke of devised Service and wicked mans invention they ascribe to the dumbe Ceremonies a Sacramentall naature and the very Office and worke of the spirit of God the doing of which makes them all to become Idols and all those Idolaters that use them or partake with them that doe it for there they say they are apt to stirre up the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God by some notable and speaciall signification whereby he might be edefied Also in the act of vniformity they themselves doe confesse that they are but of mans Invention and device and to worship God with mans devices and Inventions is odious and detestable unto him as before I have fully proved and therefore you in England have not the true Worship of God and so by your owne confession are not a true Church of Christ But now to answer your Argument which you bring to prove your Assumption which is this You have had those that have lived and dyed in the same Worship which you still have and have beene saved in it therefore it must needes be a true Worship This you say but doe not prove it in the least but still take that for granted which I deny which is that it doth not therefore follow because some in the Church of England have been saved that have used your Worship that therfore it is true Worship for then it would follow that the Worship in the Papistry which in some respects is more grosser then yours is a true Worship for you dare not deny it which if you doe you are not able to prove it that in the Papistry there hath not beene many people that have lived and died therein that have been saved for the Scripture doth declare that God hath a people there which he calls uppon to come out thence Rev. 18.4 for he ownes his Elect even in Spirituall Babilon yet for all this it doth not follow that their Worship is or ever was a true Worship though the Riches of the Grace and unfathomable Goodnes of the Kindnes and Love of God doth reach and extend so far as to save some that live and dy in that Worship as well as in the Worship of England yet I say it is as extraordinary a worke as the manifestation of Gods love to the Thiefe upon the Crosse was but for all that I will maintaine it that none of those that yeild and submit themselves unto your or their Worship cannot by the Scripture prove himselfe to be a visible Christian or a true beleever if they should be put by Gods people to prove it Joh. 14.21.23.24 15.8.14 Col. 15.19 to the end Eph 5.8 Col. 1.21 Tit. 1.16 2.14 1 Pet. 2 9. Heb 9.14 Jam. 2.17 18. 1 Joh. 3.8 2 Joh. 9. Rev. 13.8 14.1.4.9.10 19.20 Now from that which I have said I frame these Arguments 1 That Worship which is of the Divells and Antichrists Invention Institution setting up is no true divine Worship But the Worship of the Church of England is of the Divells Antichrists Invention Institution setting up as the forenamed Authors and the 13. Chap of the Rev. doth fully prove Ergo. The Worship in the Church of England is no true Morship 2. That Worship which is a main meanes cause of pulling downe the Kingdome of Jesus Christ establishing maintaining upholding of the Kingdome of the Devell Antichrist sends more Soules to Hell then all the wickednesse Impietie ungodlinesse in the Kingdome doth besides is no true Worship of God● but ought to be detested and abhorred of all his people But such is the Worship of the Church of England as worthy Dr. Bastwicke in the third part of his Letany doth prove Ergo. It is no true Worship but ought to be detested separated from by all Gods faithfull ones And thus much for the answering of your third fourth Arguments which you say are so strong and true that you say you need spend no more time in the proofe of them but indeed you are exceedingly mistaken for you have not in the least proved either of them as I have

virtue of his power and Lawes which he hath left recorded in his last Will and Testament for the bodies of his particular visible Churches to elect chuse and ordaine their owne Officers either let them doe this or else I say and will against them all maintaine it that they are Antichrists Ministers set in by the power of Satan in the Kingdome of the seaven headed and ten horned Beast in direct opposition and professed hatred against the Kingdome and Septer of Jesus Christ the eternall S●n of God for they are but false Prophets false Shee Pheards and false Teachers like those in Jeremiahs time that runne before ever God sent them and say they are of his sending when as indeed thiy lye Jer. 14.14 23.21.32 Ezeck 18.6.7 for he never sent any of them Rev. 9.3 Therefore doe you and all those that are under their Jurisdiction looke to it as they and you love your owne soules for the Lord hath not only threatned to plague false Prophets false Ministers and false sheepheards but also all those that give care and submit unto them and are seduced by them Esa 9.16 Jer. 14.15.16 23.15.16.34.39 27.15 29.8.9.18 Ezeck 13.8.9.10 So that it is not enough for a man that takes upon him to be a Prophet and a Sheepheard to come in the name of the Lord and doe part of those things which a true Prophet and Sheepheard of the Lord doth but first of all he must prove his Authority and that he is of the Lords sending else none of Christs Sheep are to give eare unto him John 10. the beginning for Christ hath bid them beware of such seeing many of them were and still a●e to come abroad into the World coming in such a foule deceiving flattering way that they should deceive if it were possible the very Elect Mat. 7.15 24.11.24 Mar. 13.22.23 2 Pet. 2.1 1 J●hn 4.1 and the reason wherefore they should beware of them and try and examine their Authority from whence it is as the Church of ●●●●esus did for which she is highly commended Rev. 22. is because that false Apostles and false ministers all of them are deceitfull workers transforming themselves into the Apostles of Christ and ministers of righteousnesse Therefore all Gods people had need exceedingly to labour for true knowledge and understanding is it is their duty that so they may be able to try and know false Ministers and Sheepeards from true ones least their soules run vpon the Rockes and so be in great danger of suffering shipwrake in submitting and giving ●eare unto those Ministers and Preachers that never were of the Lords sending nor never received their errand from him in the number of which are all the Ministers in England as well the best as the worst done of them being Christs true Ministers but Antichrists Locusts which came out of the smoake of the bottomlesse pit and are fully described in the ninth of the Revelation But I know what evation you will have to prove your Bishops Preists and Deacons true which is to fetch and derive their lineall succession which Rabby Pocklington in his Sunday no Sabboth boasts of from his impiety of Rome that Antichrist and man of Sin and Son of Perdition 2 Thes 2.3 and so thinke to avoyde all that I have said against them and also you will rune to your greasie mouldy Consecration and laying on hands by which you give them your own Holy Ghost namely the spirit of errour of blindnesse and ignorance and therefore if you goe to the Pope and derive their authority from him as of absolute necessity you must this being your best and only Argument you have to prove them true which Mason to the utmost makes use of against the Papists who deny your Bishops Preists and Deacons to be true ones because you schismed away from them and so they want Cannonicall Ordination as they call it and therefore Mason in his booke of Ordination of Bishops Preists and Deacons proves it at large to be a false accusation and that they are true having had an inviolable canonicall Ordination and Consecration from the Bishops of Rome as there you may largly read pag. 10. 41. 58. 62. 64. 88. and so forward to the end Now if you goe this way to worke too as of necessity you must having no other way at all to goe to prove them true then what doe you else but even you your selfe prove your Ministers to be Antichristian whom Mason in his foresaid Booke pag. 77 doth prove by the authority of the Scripture that if they be so it is the duty of all Gods people to seperate from them And as for laying on of hands I say it was but a Ceremony which ceased when the visible working of miracles ceased which if you say to the contrary I put you upon it to prove it a durable and permanent action in the Church of God absolutely essentiall to the making of a true Pastor Teacher Elder or Bishop Also you will say one minister must make an other but your ministers and officers are made by other ministers and officers therefore they are true But I deny that either he that is made or he that made your ministers is true But for the Argument I absolutely deny the proposition and I affirme that it is not essentiall to the makeing of a true Bishop or elder which is all one Titus 1. to be made by other Bishops or Elders for those Bishops Elders and Deacons that were made in the Apostles times were elected and made by the Church who only hath power for that end and the Apostles and Evangelists did nothing else by that action of laying on of hand but shew their likeing and approbation of that action that the Church had performed and of those persons that the Church had made Officers to officiate in her and at the laying on of the Apostles hands God was pleased to worke miracles even to give the Holy Ghost unto those upon whom they was layd which were no officers in the Church Acts 8.17.18 19.6 and also at the curing the Father of Publius of his Feaver Paul laid his hands upon him and healed him Acts 28.8 yea Ananias who was no officer in the Church but a Disciple or a private man as you call them yet he laid his hands upon Saul at the doing of which he received his sight and also the Holy Ghost Acts 8.20.17 So that you see l●ying on of hands in the primative time was not only peculiar to the Apostles and Evangelists themselves bat also to others which were no officers but Brethren out of office and was not only used at the shewing their approbation and likeing of those men that the Church had chosen into office but also at the workeing of miracles as the giving of the Holy Ghost and healing of the Sicke so that I affirme that Action ceased when the visible working of Miracles ceased and is not in the least essentiall to the

have them follow him no further then he followed Christ 1. Cor. 11.1 But your Ministers in their actions and practise do declare and say unto the people that they will not owne Jesus Christ for the only Prophet or his Church and therefore they teach the people to worship the Lord with Ceremonies and Wil-worship as Capping Cringing and Duking clean contrary to the seccond Commandement and also with Holy G●●ments as they call them and with booke prayer translated out of the Popes cursed Masse-booke as worthy Dr. Eustaricke doeth in the third part of h●s Letany declare and prove by which they teach the people to leave the naked simplicity of that worship which Jesus Christ hath instituted in his New Testament John 4.23.25 saying to the woman of Samaria the hower cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for the Father seeketh such to worship him for God is a spirit and they that worship rim must worship him in spirit and in truth and tie and bring the people to worship God with a worship which is meerly and altogether sinfull mens inventions and foolish devises which worship is odious detestable hatefull abominable to God Esa 1.11.12.13 66.3.4 Jer. 6.19.20 25.6.44.21.22.23 Amos 5.21.22 Mat. 15.8.9 Marke 7.7.8 Col. 2. So that I may truly say of the Church of England and the worshippers therein as the spirit of God said of Judah in the second of Esa 8.9 their Land also is full of Idols they worship the workes of their owne hands that which their owne fingers have made and the meane man boweth downe and the great man humbleth himselfe therefore forgive them not 3. Againe in the third place as Jesus Christ is the only Preist and Porphet of his Church so he is the only King and Lawgiver of it and to it and none else Psal 2. 149.19 Esa 9.6.7 83.20 for the Lord is our Judge the Lord is our Lawgiver saith the Church of God the Lord is our King he will save us now the Apostles by their ministery taught this to the Saints and Churches of God That Jesus Christ is the only King and Lawgiver of and to his Church vnto whose Lawes and Septer alone and to none other they must stoope submit and yeild unto Ephes 1.21.22 2.22.23 Col. 2.2.3.6.7 Heb. 3. begin 20.28.29 12.25 But your Ministers by their Ministrery teach the people to rebell and bid defiance against the Septer Lawes and Commands of Christ as though he had not had wisedome and power enough to have erected and governed his owne spirituall Kingdome and to have instituted sufficient Offices as voyd places for his people by virtue of his Lawes to elect and chuse Officers to administer therin for the building of them up till they come to perfect then in the knowledge of God and unto the measure of the fulnes of Christ contrary to what the Apostle affirmes by the spirit of God Ephes 4.11.12.13 and therefore they teach the people to run to Antichrist and seeke for more Officers Away with such horrible wickednes as this which your Bishops Preists and Deacens those litle toes of Antichrist dayly and howerly perpetrate and commit as if so be Jesus Christ had not been so faithfull in his House as Moses was in his and as though he had not had so sufficient a care of his Church under the Gospell as Moses had under the Law and therefore they goe unto Antichrist Christs professed enemie and there would teach the people to seeke for Lawes for the governing of the Church of God under the Gospell rakeing them out of his cursed counsels Bookes of Articles and diabolicall Traditions and in their doing of this which is their constant practises they teach flat Rebellion and High Treason againg the Septer and Kingdome of the everlasting Son of God who will have his church governed by his owne Lawes which he instituted and left recorded in his last Will and Testament which he hath bequeathed to his church commanding them as they will answer it before his dreadfull appearing to observe and keep them strictly without violation in the least and also by his owne Officers therein expressed who are only five who are to be permanent officiating in personall presence and Being for the freedome of his church namely Pastor Teocher Elder Deacon and Widdow Rom. 12.7.8 Phil. 1.1 1 Tim. 3. 5. chap. But they teach the people to goe to the Lawes and Officers of Antichrist which are a great multitude in number as Patriarkes Primates Metrapolitanes Arch-Bishops Lord Bishops Deanes Chancellours Vicar generall Prebends Doctours of the Civill Law Doctours of Divinity Proctours Registers Arch-Deacons Sub-Deacons Preists Jesuites Parish-preists Parsons Vicars Curates Cannons Petty Cannons Chanters Vestrey men Church wardens Sworne men Side men Parish clarkes damnable and divelish Pursevants Summers Apparritours with a great many more And therefore in this respect doe not by their Ministery accomplish the same ends that the Ministery of the Apostles did and so by your owne grounds are no true Ministers And a● for those two things of conversion and confirmation or building up in the wayes of God which you speake of if you meane by conversion an opening of the eyes to turne them from drunkenes to light and from the power of Satan unto God Or if you meane by conversion a deliverance from the power of darkenes and a translation into the Kingdome of the Son of God both of which the Apostles Ministery did accomplish in the hearts and lives of Gods people Asts 26.18 Col. 1.13 I absolutely deny it that your Ministery in England doth this And therefore I desire you to declare what you meane by conversion and prove your definition by the holy Scripture and also prove that you in England are so converted which when you have done I shall further answer you by Gods assistance And as for their building them up in the wayes of God as all true Sheepheards ought to build up their sheepe as Acts 20. 1 Pet. 5. yet I deny it that your ministers doe it for how can they build them vp in that which they themselves are ignorant of and enemies unto for as Jannes and Jambres which withstood Moses so doe these men also resist the truth being men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth 2 Tim. 3.8 and doe feed you with huskes and chaffe being neither willing to embrace it themselves nor to let those that would as their constant preaching and speaking against the truth of God and the Kingdome of his Son doth witnesse And in the conclusion of this your Argument you say when the Separation can prove conversion in an Antichristian Church you will say more to them this belongs to you to prove for we doe not plead for Antichrist but against him and all his And therefore have I taken the paines by the Word of God and demonstrable Argument grounded therevpon to prove the Church