I prove they have said so To this I answer That I could prove this largely if I should trouble the Reader to look over many of your writings But however to save that labour I shall cite that passage in page 28. of this thy book Where you make this your ninth Quaere that you would have me answer viz. What Faith is that which pleads for sin and preacheth against perfection and that believes that they can never be free from sin and come to perfection while they are in this world shew the Saint that so believed and so practised Let me tell thee James that if this be true that men may be free from sin in this world as one branch of the question doth plainly import then if none of you are free from sin you do not do that which you MAY do and then you are self-condemned sinners if you may be free from sin and will not is it not a shame for you to cry out against those that live in sin who it may be do think that they cannot live without sin and for you that believe you may live without sin to live in sin Oh the deceit of these men But if any-body shall say That the Quakers do not live in sin I answer Then what lye have I told in charging them with saying That they profess to be perfect And doth not John Lilburn call Nayler once and again in his Book lately published call'd his Resurrection that TALL MAN in Christ and yet Nayler saith I Lye in saying They profess to be perfect Now how can he be truly call'd a TALL MAN in Christ that believes a man MAY be free from sin in this world and yet is not free from it himself Again may not a man believe that TALL men in Christ should be free from sin in this world if anybody may and yet James saith I Lye in saying they profess to be perfect Indeed this is such a bundle of imperfection that if I had said they had been perfect I had lyed indeed The second Lye I charge is that they said They were immediately sent of God To this he answers that it is a Truth in them who are so sent to say so and the Lye he saith is my own till I prove the contrary To this I reply First that this is no answer to the Charge but a meer evasion to say it is truth for a man that is so sent to say so and I wonder when James heard that denied by me or any-body But though it be a truth for a man to say that God sends him when indeed God hath sent him yet it is a Lye for a man to say God sent him when he never did And that he never sent these Quakers I prove at large in pag. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 of my book to which as I have said he makes no answer where I shew at large that the Turk can say as much for his Alcoran and the Pope for his Infallible Chair as they can for their immediate sending The third Lye I charge is that Fox said The world did not know his Name and yet afterwards saith He is known by the Name of George Fox He answers That the Saints that overcome have a new Name c. But what is this to George Fox unless we should take it for granted That he was an overcoming Saint is not this a ridiculous Argument viz. Every one that overcomes hath a new Name Ergo George Fox hath overcome and hath a new Name Again he doth not say The world did not know his NEW Name but HIS NAME without any such distinction Again did ever any of the Saints of old subscribe themselves as these do but surely such kinde of canting hath never been about subscribing names unless it were among Thieves that would be known in the City by one name and the Country by another The fourth Lye I charge is that Edward Burough said his book was sealed with the Spirit of the eternal God to this he answers that this is call'd a Lye but not proved But surely if any shall presume to utter such a saying it is more rational for him to prove the thing affirmed then for his respondent to prove what he denyes for if God had scaled Burough his book we should have had more for the proof of it then his bare say so The fifth and sixth Lyes I charge is about some passages that were in a letter that James sent me where he saith that I did tempt him to deny the Lord and that I did tell him that if he came in his own name I would have received him These were both false as many can witness for I bid him either prove he was sent of God or else disown his presumptions in saying so and for my telling him I would have received him if he had come in his own name c. surely if I had been of that mind I should have received him at that time for I did then and so I do still believe that he never came in any bodies name but his own as our whole discourse doth make manifest though with the false Prophets of old they boast of their being sent of God And where as he adds at the bottome of his letter in Page 18. of his book that I said if he were sent of God it were to no purpose to put my faith upon tryal with him for he would overturn all my proofs James thou needest not witness this but then this doth shew thy Lyes in thy letter Which was that I did tempt thee to deny the Lord when I did at that time say that if God sent thee we would not stand to contend with thee if thou couldest but prove that I further added that then I would fall down under all that he said doth this look like tempting one to deny the Lord The seventh Lye that I did charge upon them was that he being charged with those two fore-mentioned Lyes writ in the letter did deny that there was any such passages in the letter And whereas he saith that he did not know of the fetching the letter c. this is no answer to the charge the charge is that he denyed he writ any such passages and it is not his now printing them that proves he did not then deny them which is all he urgeth to prove it And as for his running away while the letter was fetching for to prove him a Lyer that I did urge as an aggravation of his sin of lying and that he did so though he knew the letter was gone for though he now denyes it will appear by certificate at the end of this book He proceeds in the 19. Page of his book and saith that I make a boast of somthing I will prove His 25. LYE and that is saith he that I said I would prove the writings of the Scriptures to be the Word of God For shame James hide thy
Innocency above Impudency OR The strength of Righteousness exalted ABOVE The Quakers Weakness and Wickedness IN A REPLY To a Lying PAMPHLET call'd Weakness above Wickedness Published by J. Nayler in Answer to a Book Entituled The Quakers quaking By which his notorious Lyes are made manifest and the Truth of the said Book justified By JEREMIAH IVES Job 11.3 Should thy lyes make men hold their peace Isa 9.15 The Prophet that teacheth lyes he is the tail Zech. 3.13 Thou speakest lyes in the Name of the Lord. 1 Tim. 4.2 Speaking lyes in hypocrisie LONDON Printed by J. Cottrel for R. Moon at the Seven Stars in S. Pauls Church-yard 1656. To the READER READER THese Lines are sent out after a lying Pamphlet published by the Quakers who are indeed quaking or else they would never tell so many notorious Lyes as I shall shew thee they have told in their late Book call'd Weakness above Wickedness wherein thou wilt finde that they have made Lyes their refuge though they call themselves The Seed of God and The Generation of the Just for did ever the Seed of God or the Generation of the Just say That a man hath not done that which he did do or that a man hath done that which he never did Nay it is rare to finde any of the Seed of the Devil grown up to that degree of Impudence as to charge a man with publishing that which he never published and with concealing that which is published to the world in print as these men have done by me But surely they think that no man will take pains to compare book to book but will believe all that they say but sure the wise have learned otherwise though the simple believe every thing I shall therefore desire thee to compare their Answer to my Book with the Book and both with this Reply and see if ever any men have lyed with that stock of Impudence as these men have done Indeed I am no Prophet nor the Son of a Prophet but sure I am that these men are filling up the measure of their Iniquity and that very greedily as though their hearts were hardened from fear and as though they had made a league with Death and with Hell were at an agreement otherwise the fear of either would have taught them to have laid aside their wickedness which they still inlarge the borders of till such time wrath comes upon them to the uttermost and the Lord say of them That they shall be called the border of wickedness and the pecple against whom he hath indignation for ever Oh therefore that while God gives them space to repent they may repent if there be any place for repentance for them before the Lord give them over to the plagues of their own hearts as I fear he hath done many of them already These are the desires of my Soul in the behalf of those of them who have not sinned unto death and I hope shall be whatever they say of me while I am JER IVES Innocency above Impudency OR The strength of Righteousness exalted Above the QVAKERS Weakness and Wickedness THe Apostle in his Catalogue of the evils of the latter times 1 Tim. 4.2 reckons up such as speak lyes in hypocrisie having their Consciences seared with a hot iron to be none of the least who by a shew of Self-denial in Marriage and Meats c. should introduce by their heeding seducing spirits Doctrines of Devils and surely this Prophesie aimed much at the men call'd Quakers which I shall make appear God assisting me by what follows in answer to their Book call'd Weakness above Wickedness And for the more orderly proceeding herein I shall first speak to the Title-page of it where they are pleased to call their book THE QUAKERS DEFENCE c. Here I do observe one thing That my book hath made these men own themselves Quakers for they were ashamed of their Names before and usually call'd themselves Such as were NICK-NAMED Quakers yet now they call their book The QUAKERS Defence So that here they did tell a notorious Lye His first LYE in saying The WORLD did Nick-name them Quakers when they give that Name to themselves I now come to the book it self where he begins and sayes pag. 1. That the Apostle well knew what he said when he desired the Saints prayers That he might be delivered from men without faith c. Truly the Devil speaks truth sometimes and so do you in saying The Apostle well knew what he said but surely you are no Apostles that speak things you know not and are vainly puft up with a fleshly minde as appears by what I have said in my last and shall yet further make manifelt in due place Thou tellest me His 2. LYE That I deny the Faith of God which is the gift of God in his Saints c. This I never did either by word or writing And though he ought to have proved that I denied the Faith being he chargeth it upon me yet he brings no proof at all but his bare assertion I shall therefore give the Reader some sayings of mine and leave him to judge whether they look like the words of a man that did deny the Faith of God and set up a Faith of his own as he falsly accuseth me As first in my Epistle to the Churches I call upon them to take heed that they were not spoiled of their joy and confidence they had in CHRIST JESUS and that they would let none of the words of OUR LORD JESUS slip out of their minde and that they would have high and honourable thoughts of the SCRIPTURES and that they would prize the Ordinances of GOD and pag. 16. of my book I do exhort that men would take heed of turning the Truth of GOD into a Lye Nay doth not he tell me That I did confess that Christ lighteth every man that comes into the world in his answer pag. 5 And do not I all along through my book profess Christ to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD and JUDGE of the World and is not this the Faith of God and yet this man sayes I deny the Faith of God In the second page he insists upon some things which he saith I spake at Gerrard Roberts house which I shall take notice of hereafter because he is so full of Tautalogies and speaks very often in his book of something relating thereto and therefore it will be lost labour to speak to any thing till I come to speak to the whole The rest of the second page hath little besides but a pack of swelling words of vanity as Vain Philosophy Deceitful Craft Unreasonable blasphemous Doctrines Cursed Art charging me with setting up the spirit of the Devil and that I had mustered up a heap of Lyes and a heap of Subtilty c. Let me tell thee James these words had done well when thou hadst proved me so and then they would better have become the Conclusion then
the Preface of thy book Thou goest on and sayest in the latter end of p. 2. that thou wilt not trouble thy self to answer every particular of my vain stories c. Truly I do believe that thou wouldst be as much troubled to answer to them and prove them so as ever thou wast in thy life and therefore it was cunningly thought on by thee to ease thy self of the trouble and call them Lyes vain stories and slanders Here thou hast done like thy self Thou goest on and quarrelst with my Epistle to the Churches and sayest If my brethren with me have denied the Faith of Christ and set up a Faith of their own it is like my work will be welcome To this I have answered already in my Reply to thy first Page and because I will not call this another Lye I shall onely say it is the former Lye reiterated the second time Thou leapest over my Epistle to the Reader and sayest nothing to it though therein thou wast more concerned then in the Epistle to the Churches and from thence comest to speak a little to little purpose in pag. 3. of thy book and that is That you shall not contend whether the world call you that which is true or that which is false when they call you Quakers If so then why hast thou troubled thy self so farre as to call them Ishmaels Brood that call you so Your jugling and lying at this turn which I charge you with in the second and third pages of my book thou sayest nothing to but that thou wilt not trouble thy self whether the world truly or falsly call you so Oh shameless wretch dost thou say thou art Nick-named when thou art call'd Quaker And when I have used arguments to prove thee a Lyer in saying The world Nick-names thee because thou namest thy self so thou shakest all off with this that thou wilt not contend whether they call'd thee truly or falsly His 3. LYE But by the way if they did call thee truly then thou art a Lyer in saying they Nick-named thee Thou goest on and in page 3. of thy book thou tellest me that I lyed in saying you foamed at the mouth in your tremblings c. But James remember that it is not thy bare saying I lye that proves it so and thou doest pretend that so I may repent to inform me better But am I better informed that you did not foam because you say I lye in charging you with foaming Reade and judge and yet this is all you bring to inform me better And whereas you say That though it was cast upon you in the Westmerland Petition and you did not answer to it it doth not follow you say that the Charge was therefore true To this I reply That if you had overlooked those passages in the Charge then indeed there might be somewhat in what you say But you printed those particular passages how that you were charged with swellings and foamings and that in young children and yet say nothing to the untruth of them And though I have again urged the same things yet you say nothing to your swelling and roaring though it be charged to be in young children And whereas in your Answer you deny foamings yet you do not deny any other part of my Charge By this the world may see thy wickedness that thou wavest the most material things and saist nothing to them And whereas thou sayest I lyed and the Petitioners lyed in saying you foamed I demand why both my self and the Petitioners have not better ground to say thou lyest in denying it seeing thou hast waved answering to it both when your selves did print the Charge and also when I did charge you with it afresh in my book But I do think that this was one thing that James was not willing to TROUBLE himself with answering for I perceive and so may the Reader if he mindes my book and his Answer That he could not tell how to deny what I and the Petitioners of Westmerland did charge against them You now proceed and in the latter end of page 3. and page 4. you say that I can finde nothing of the TRUTH you preach that I dare accuse you of Well said James thou wilt speak Truth sometimes though it be against thy Father the Devils will for tou sayest That I can finde nothing of the TRUTH you preach that I dare to accuse you of Indeed that 's true for I dare not accuse any for holding Truth But then it seems if I have accused you of any thing that you preach it is of the Lyes you preach This must needs follow for if as thou sayest I dare not accuse thee of the Truths you preach and yet do accuse you of many things that you preach as my book declares at large then it follows that all that I accuse you with is of the Lyes you preach for you have justified me that I did not dare to accuse you of the TRUTHS you preach But in the 3 and 4 pages of thy book thou sayest That I do accuse you of somewhat that you never preached viz. That you say Nothing must be called Gods Word but Christ This you say is none of your Doctrine His 4. LYE But I wonder who hath ever heard you unless it be such as are deeply drenched in hypocrisie and have learned your art of Equivocation but will say the same thing that I say of you You say also That I lye in saying you deny the Scriptures to be the Word of God His 5. LYE c. But have not I proved it from your own writings pag. 6. of my book And do you not reprove in many places of your books the People and Priest for calling the Writings The Word Oh shameless man to call me a Lyer for saying nothing of them but what I have under their own hands And where my arguments against thee are of that force that thou knowest not how to answer them Thou tellest the Reader That it is false in my sense to say thou deniest the Scriptures to be the Word of God James do not juggle for I did not say you denied the Scriptures to be the Word of God in my sense but in your own words that may be found in the books I have cited and which are owned by you But to proceed James jumps through the 7 and 8 pages of my book where I make it appear That they give those Titles to their own Pamphlets that they will not give to the Scriptures and thereupon do demand a question To all which James answers not a word Reader remember what James said at first namely That he would not trouble himself to answer all and by this he frees himself very cunningly from answering to the most material things I urge against him He comes now to speak to the third Error I charge them with and that is That they preach they are infallibly sent and cannot prove it To this
should be born in Bethlehem though they had not the Spirit Was not this to foretel a thing to come and yet this is not Witchcraft though thou art pleased to call it so The rest of your Letter consists of Baptism For answer thereto I shall refer the Reader to my book call'd Quakers quaking pag. 25 26 and 38. Thus much as touching thy Letter and thy Charge going before it which is the same with the Letter except some things which thou chargest me for omitting which were spoken at our Conference at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate and them thou sayest are First His 15. LYE That I should say Christ lighteth every one that comes into the world and yet deny that this Light was within every one that comes into the world This thou sayest I have omitted to cover Lyes But let me tell thee James That if this Light spoken of in Joh. 1. had been in thee thou wouldst have been ashamed to tell thy Reader That I did diminish this from the Discourse to make my self a cover with a Lye when these very words are once and again repeated as page 49. of my book call'd Quakers quaking and page 51. in page 49. I have these words viz. That I did not oppose the saying of Joh. 1. which is that Christ inlightens every one that comes into the world but your saying which is that every one in the world hath the Light within him spoken of in that Text. Again in page 51. I have these words In like manner he viz. Christ lighteth every one that comes into the world inasmuch as he useth means for the bringing the world to the Light THOUGH ALL HAVE NOT THIS LIGHT WITHIN THEM James I have put it into Capital Letters that thou mayest without a Pair of Spectacles see thy self a Capital Lyer for thou art so impudent as to tell me If I had been honest I would have published the whole Truth and this fore-mentioned passage is one of the sayings thou lyingly tell'st thy Reader that I did diminish to make a cover for a Lye when I printed it word for word See his Answer to my book page 5. The next Lye he tells his Reader is That I omitted to print another passage that I spake in the Conference His 16. LYE which was That the Heathen had a Light that convinced them of sin but this Light was not within them James surely thou canst not forbear lying for do not I say page 52. that they might have a Light among them that might not be within them What is this less then what thou sayest I omitted and is this false Doctrine may not God use means and send his Light among people to convince them of sin that they may reject and not receive into their hearts Was not the great Light Jesus Christ among many who did not receive him within them by believing And yet thou art so ignorant and shameless as to call this a deceit and false Doctrine The next thing thou chargest me with is That I did omit the printing of that saying which thou sayest His 17. LYE I spake at the Bull and Mouth viz. That Christ pardoneth the sins of every one that comes into the world Now James thou hast fearfully diminished the Truth to make thee a cover for thy Lye for thou leavest out these words that I said namely That Christ was said to be the Light of the world or to lighten every one that came into it as he was said to take away the sin of the world inasmuch as he did graciously afford meanes for the pardoning the sins of the world though every man should not have his sins pardoned This indeed I said and to this purpose I spake in page 51. of my book which is just contrary to what thou chargest for I say He doth not pardon the sins of every one thou sayest that I said Christ did pardon the sins of every one He now proceeds in his 10 page to attempt an answer to the fourth Error I charge upon them and saith His 18. LYE I count it an Error that they bear Testimony to the Light of Christ which lighteth every one that comes into the world and That I count it an Error in them for holding That the Spiritual Light of Christ is sufficient to teach in all the wayes of God c. and That their Error is for saying the light of Christ is Spiritual and within To all this I answer 1. That the Reader may see that in thy fore-going Letter thou hast laid to my charge things that I never said for thou that wilt adde to and diminish from my words that are published in print wilt not stick to do the like unto words that were spoken more privately For where do I charge any of the fore mentioned things upon you for Error I challenge thee to shew it me in any page of my book or else confess thy wickedness before God and men and that thy sin may appear at this turn I shall desire the Reader to peruse the fourth Error I charge upon you in page 18. of my book where I do not charge it as Error That you testifie to the Light of Christ that is spoken of Joh. 1. but the words are that you say Every man hath a Light within him that will teach him to worship God rightly And thereupon it is that I do ground my twelve Quaeres page 19 20 21. of my book and not whether it be an Error to testifie to the Light of Christ as thou falsly suggestest for though it be a Truth as I often declare in my book That Christ is the Light of the world yet it is an Error and an unwritten Conceit to say That EVERY MAN hath a Light within him that will teach him to worship God aright without any other means vouchsafed And in what page of my book do I count it an Error in you for saying The Spiritual Light of Christ is sufficient to teach in all the wayes of God as thou falsly saith I have His 19. LYE Nay do not I say and doest not thou confess in page 10. of thy book that I say It is sufficient c. And where canst thou shew me that I charge it upon you as Error for saying The Light of Christ is sufficient as thou falsly hast declared Again where do I charge it upon you as Error for saying His 20. LYE The Light of Christ is spiritual and within as you say I do Do I say any such thing in my whole book No no I have not so learned Christ and yet this you say is the Error I charge upon you For shame James leave off lying and speak truth from thy heart for my charge is not That you say the Light of Christ is Spiritual and within but that you say it is WITHIN EVERY MAN that comes into the world that 's the Error I charge and in stead of answering that which I object
by calling what I propose Crooked Consequences See if the man be not here at a Nonplus or else how could he have the face to intitle his book an Answer to mine when he first leaves out the first two pages of my book where I shew their jugling about their Name Quakers and that they have lyed in saying The world Nick-names them so and to this he saith nothing but That he shall not contend whether the world call them truly or falsly when they call them so Again I spend other two pages to prove that they do give such Titles to their Pamphlets as they will refuse to give to the Scriptures And this I prove by their own books as the Reader may perceive and to this he sayes not one word Again I do print the substance of two Conferences where he is so miserably Nonplus'd that he cannot tell what to say to them but onely tells his Reader that I do adde words that were never spoken and diminish Truth to make my self a cover with a Lye This is all that he saith touching the two Conferences contained in the 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 pages of my book as any one may see that reades the fifth page of his book and yet he hath got such a stock of impudence as to call his book an ANSWER to mine Again I propound twelve Quaeres in the 19 20 21 pages of my book And to these in stead of answering them he proposeth questions of his own for so I call them because he hath left out the most material terms of mine in his transcribing them by which they become his own questions and not mine and to these twelve Quaeres he saith as little as to the other Again the like answer he gives to the nine Quaeres in page 25 26 of my book and the sum of his answer is That they are crooked Consequences See page 14 of his book He now comes to answer the sixteenth Error I charge upon them which was that one of their Scribes did ask a Minister of the Nation Whether he had the Light that did inlighten every one that comes into the world when he had before told him That every one HAD that Light within him This I charge as a piece of inconsistency in these that would be counted perfect To which he replies That Christ did ask the disciples who they said he was and yet they had the Light within them that revealed him to be the Son of God But what 's this to the case in hand the case in hand is not whether a man may ask a question for the further confirmation of a thing that is in question as our Lord did his Disciples in a time when there was various opinions of him But whether after a man hath preached a thing that concerneth EVERY man whether it be not very ridiculous to ask the same man to whom he hath preached whether it concerns him Where doth Christ or any wise man ask such a question Again Christ demands this question of them that owned him what their opinion was of him but he asked the question of a man that disowned the Light to be in every one So that this being considered I demand Whether Christ ever asked a man that did disown him and his Light whether his Light was within them or no as this man hath done for he asked the question of one that was a Minister of the Nation whom they all say disown the Light of Christ He passeth over the second instance of their inconsistency and saith not a word to it I do suppose as he said at first that these were some things he would not TROUBLE himself with answering and indeed I think it would trouble him to answer them and therefore he cunningly lets them alone He comes to say something to the third in stance I bring of their inconsistency and that is that though they pretend to own the Scriptures yet one of them said to Parson Camelford of Staveley-Chappel That he might as well have burnt the Scriptures as his Quaeres He answers That it doth not prove all my false accusations cast upon them c. To this I reply That I have not spoke or writ any syllable of untruth concerning you and further it doth prove all that I charge against you about the case in hand and all that I do urge in the foregoing pages about your slighting the Scripture For for any one to say that a man might as well burn the Scriptures as his Quaeres doth not this prove that your design is to eat out the honour of the Scriptures and build up the honour of your contradictious stories And whereas in a Parenthesis you question if there was any such that said so Fie James do not I in p. 29. of my book cite those passages and tell thee That they are in a book call'd Truths Defence which is owned by you all and yet you question if there be any such Dost thou think that book did write it self and if not why shouldst thou question whether there be such a man as saith those words in his book for the words are there asserted as I have transcribed them But James thou wouldst willingly be ignorant of this story because it doth so much lay open your hypocrisie and double-dealing about the Scriptures And further is not this book bound up and owned by you among the rest of your Works and yet thou wouldst fain make the Reader believe that there was no man among you that published such a thing Thou passest over my fourth instance of your inconsistency and sayest not a word to it which would trouble thee too much to answer it and that is That one Tomlinson in his book call'd A word of Reproof p. 11. did blame the Ministers of the Nation for doing that they had no Rule for when they prayed before or after Sermon this book is also owned by you and bound up with the rest of your stories and yet Edward Boroughs did pray after Sermon before hundreds of people at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate To this inconsistency among themselves he says not a word but leaps over it He proceeds and saith The fifteenth Error I charge is a Lye which is That they study deceitful terms that look with two faces c. James it is not thy saying I Lye in charging you that proves it to be a Lye as any one may see in page 30 of my book And for all thou sayest A man may affirm a Negative yet that will not serve thy turn for that is not the question but Whether a man being charged with speaking a thing that is Negative for that 's the case doth not equivocate in saying He spake no such Affirmative He comes now to answer the eighteenth Error I charge and that is Their Lying First in saying They are perfect and sin not This he saith is a Lye of mine own and shall rest upon my head till
This is another of thy Lyes Where do I say any such thing in all my book but this I said That the Scriptures made no distinction between a being born after the flesh and born according to the flesh And you say again That Christ as he was born of Mary was not born after the flesh but begotten and brought forth by Promise To this I answer First that this is nothing to the question for though he was begotten and brought forth by promise doth this prove that therefore he was not borne after the flesh for Isaac was borne according to the promise yet he was borne after the flesh likewise So Gods promise concerning Christs Birth doth not prove that therefore he was not borne according to the flesh And whereas thou say'st he that was borne after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit I say that though this be true in sinfull unregenerate men that have no other Birth and generation then what was after the flesh yet it is not true in Christ and his being borne after the flesh for he being without sin did not persecute him that was borne after the Spirit as sinfull men do And therefore James because thou say'st Christ was not borne after the flesh shew me a plain text for such a Doctrine without any of these conceited consequences or else take shame to thy self for finding fault with proofs that others bring when they do not give the express text Thou tellest me of my promise to repent if I should be better informed c. to this I answer that thou hast rather strengthened my former opinions of thee then any way better informed me except I will take thy bare saying I lye for a better information Thou now comest upon me with a pack of questions to which I shall answer His first question is whose Spirit that is which men understand the Scriptures with and try Spirits with who are without the Spirit of God Seeing thou affirms that a man may understand Scriptures without the Spirit of God or whether God hath set up such a tryer yea or no. Answ The greatest part of this question is grounded upon a false bottome viz. something that I said which is most part false for I did never say those words yet I have answered to them so far as I am concerned in my answer to thy letter which thou sent'st to me after our meeting at Gerard Roberts in the former part of this book but yet if by understanding the Scriptures thou doest mean all things contained in them I say this he cannot do without Gods Spirit and if by trying Spirits thou meanst to try between your Spirits and the Spirit of Christ I can say again that a man without the Spirit of God may by his own Spirit understand that you are not guided by the Spirit of truth that have told so many untruths His second Quest Seeing thou confesseth Christ to be the true light and that he lighteth every man that comes into the World but denyes that light to be within shew in plainness where he doth inlighten every man that comes into the World and not within and how they come by it and seeing thou say'st every man hath it how have they it and not within This is answered already in Page 51. of my book called Quakers quaking The later part of the question is a lye for I never said that every man hath the light of Christ though Christ hath used means to bring the World to the light that their deeds may be reproved But lest both my books should not come to the readers hand I do again answer that Christ is said to inlighten the World as he pardoneth their sins though none but them that believe shall receive remission of sins yet he pardoneth their sins by proposing a way for the pardon of them So Christ inlightens every man I and that within too if you will have it by giving them means to be inlightened within though thousands like your selves stumble because there is no light in them 3. Quest Seeing thou confessest that the heathen have a light that reproves them of sin but not within shew where it is and what it is whether the light of Christ or no and how they came by it Answ That the heathen may have a light among them that may not be in them I have already shewn in my former book Page 52. but further did not Christ tell the Pharisees Luke 17.2 that the Kingdome of God was within them when indeed it was but among them and so the margent reads it for they were far enough from having his Kingdome erected in their inward man In like manner may God send light among the heathen which may not be within every individial man of them And whereas you ask me what light it is I say it is the light of nature which taught them to do by nature the things contained in the Law And whereas you ask how they came by it I answer that that manifestation they have is from God for God hath shewed it to them Rom. 1.19 4. Quest Whether that which reproves the heathen when they sin be the same that reproves thee when thou sinnest and the rest who call your selves believers and whether it be in the same place and wherein doth it differ as to place nature and operation Answ To which I answer First that that which reproves the heathen of sin doth reprove us and you too And as touching the place I confess it is an odd term yet I answer that it is the conscience that must be reproved of sin according to Rom. 2. but yet this light may differ in the nature of it as the light of the Moon differs from the Sun and as a man may see further by the light of the Sun then he can by the light of the Moon even so may them that have the light of Christ have a further inspection into the things of Christ then the Gentiles who walk by the light of nature yet that light of nature we have together with the light of the Gospel which will convince us of sins against nature but for sins in the particular circumstances relating to Gods worship the light of nature will not convince and here these lights differ in operation also 5. Quest The fifth Question is whether your light who call your selves believers be within you and if within you how came you by it when you were in darkness as the moving cause and if without how doth it inlighten and not within and where doth it abide for you that is not in you Answ To this I answer that God which commanded the light to shine out of darkness is he which hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ 2 Cor. 4.6 this being answered there is no need of answering the later part of this quaere for the light that is in believers doth
because he mentions not one Argument brought by me at that time in favour to it but in stead thereof charges me with something that I never said Whereas if that Letter were the sum of the Conference as possibly he may make some believe why then did not he write the Arguments I brought for the proof of what I then said and his Answers to them which the Letter speaks nothing of And as touching the particulars charged in his Letter and so often repeated by him as though he wanted matter I shall first speak to the first and that is That I said a man might understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God To this I answer and that as I then told him That though all the Mysteries of the Kingdom of God and Christ could not be understood without Gods Spirit which the Scripture saith shall lead into all truth yet much of the Scripture might be understood by men that had not the Spirit as Thou shalt not kill and Thou shalt not steal and the like and the Scribes and Priests Mat. 2.4 understood by the Scripture that Christ should be born in Bethlehem as it was written by the Prophet though they had not the Spirit and surely they understood that Scripture right for accordingly he was born in the same place This I did answer at that time though he hath left it out and yet omission of any thing that he saith is counted an evil The next thing is that I said The Faith by which a man is saved is not the gift of God To this I did answer then and so I do now That it is not so the gift of God as you imagine by your Enthusiastical dotages as That men should meet together and neither say nor do towards the work of Faith till they are immediately inspired with your quaking dotages in this sense I do still deny Faith to be Gods gift yet in the sense that all those Scriptures say Faith is the gift of God I do freely own it as my book doth declare page 37. wherein I have these words That men have nothing but what they have received especially any light or knowledge of Jesus Christ according to 1 Cor. 4.7 The next is that I said The obedience of Believers was not the gift of God To this I answer as before That we being at that time discoursing about the point of Baptism and I then asserting That God was to be obeyed in that as well as others of his Commands Thou didst answer That they must wait till obedience was given them To which I did reply That God did not give obedience to his people in the way that thou didst expect it as to sit still and do nothing till men were immediately inspired to it And in this sense I do still deny That obedience is the gift of God though I do believe and am generally known to teach that to him that hath improved his talent God will give more and that he that doth his will shall know of his Doctrine And in this sense I do believe obedience to be the gift of God according to those Scriptures by you alledged and yet I say None of those Scriptures prove your obedient actions which you so call to be Gods gift You go on and say that I said Whosoever speaks that which men understand not is a Fool and a Barbarian His 9. LYE These were not the words James but indeed when thou hadst spoke a great while to us and then at last when I made some Reply upon thy words thou didst answer That thou spakest in a language that I could not understand and so thou saidst upon the like occasion at our Meeting in Beech-lane before many witnesses as I have shewed in page 10. of my book call'd Quakers quaking Hereupon I did answer according to that of the Apostle That he that speaks in an unknown tongue is a Barbarian and if I said a Fool I think I might 〈◊〉 prove it Not but that I did then and do still believe That Christ spake many things and so did his Apostles that the world could not understand because of their hardness of heart You charge me further with saying That none was baptized with the holy Ghost but they wrought Miracles I said not so but that none were baptized with the holy Ghost but they COULD work Miracles His 10. LYE and so I do say still till thou canst prove it for not one Text by thee alledged proves the contrary You tell me that I said His 11. LYE All good was not of God This is another of thy Lyes and I leave it to thee to prove Though it may be I might say That All the good you glory in is not of God and so I say still For you are of the Generation that call good evil and evil good but otherwise I believe with all my heart that God is the Fountain of all good according to the Scriptures You go on and tell me that I said Christ was not a Minister of Circumcision And so I say still till thou canst prove it And though in thy Letter thou chargest this for an Error yet thou dost not bring one Text to prove he was a Minister of Circumcision See thy deceit Again thou chargest me with Error in thy Letter in saying The Law was not given by Christ and yet dost not give me one Text to prove that it was given by Christ for the Scripture saith The Law was given by Moses but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ Joh. 1.17 and yet thou hast the face to call this one of my blasphemous Doctrines Thou tell'st me in thy Letter His 12. LYE that I said The wilderness where John preached was in Jerusalem James this is like thee and thy Father for what man in his right wits ever said a Wilderness was in 〈◊〉 unless there be one at the Bull and Mouth at Aldersgate which is the likest one of any place in a City that ever I heard of He further saith His 13. LYE That I said the River Jordan was in Jerusalem This is false for I know that Text well in Mat. 3. that saith Ierusalem went OUT to be baptized of John in Jordan therefore I could not think Jordan was in Jerusalem But however it is as reasonable to think that Jordan should be in Jerusalem as it is for you to teach That Jerusalem is IN YOU You go on and tell me that I said His 14. LYE I could foretell things to come without the Spirit This thou sayest is Witchery To this I answer That this is another of thy Lyes to say that this is Witchery for the Pharisees did foretel things to come and had not the Spirit when they said Matth. 16.2 Luk. 12.54 55. They knew when it would be heat and rain before it came to pass and Christ bare them witness that this was true and the Priests Scribes by the Scriptures did know that Christ
face did I ever say any such thing nay do not I say Page 34. the writings may be burned but the Word of God contained in them cannot And That the Tables might be broken but the Commands contained in them did remain like Mount Sion c. And yet this man hath the Impudence to tell his Reader that I say I would prove the writings of the Scripture to be the Word of God But at this turn the Devil makes him speak nonsence as well as falsities for is it not non-sence to say the writings of the Scriptures What is that but in plain English to say the writings of the writings which is absurd and therefore the more like the Author that devised it for my words are these that the written precepts and promises of God together with his threatnings of Judgements and exhortations to amendment of life they are and ought to be called the Words of God and this I have used arguments to prove to which he says little His next Lye is that he saith in Page 14. His 26. LYE of his Book that I would prove that the letter of that roll is the Word of God which Baruch read VVhen there is no such passage in my whole book and having thus set up a man of straw he valiantly goes to fight with him and saith that Baruchs roll might be burned but the VVord of God cannot See if this man hath not belyed me in his letters that will thus bolye me about things that are published in print charging that to be in my book which is not in it and then go about to confute it for I say nothing of Baruch but the very words of the text Jer. 36.2 5. He proceeds in Page 20. and calls the next proof of mine AS CONFUSED AS THE REST because I charge them to deny the Scriptures to be the Word and yet say I will prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God out of their own mouths But what confusion is this doth not Christ prove God to be just and judge the unprofitable Servant out of his own mouth And yet the unprofitable Servant said God was not just for he said that he did reap where he sowed not so may I judge you out of your own mouths that deny the Scriptures to be the word who at some turns to save your credit own them and because I prove from your own words as doth appear by my Book page 35. that the Scriptures must be call'd Gods Word because you say nothing can declare Gods VVill but Gods VVord you from hence would prove that Balaams Ass was Gods VVord because he declared Gods VVill and this you would fasten as an absurdity upon me which is an Argument that I raised upon your own principles and therefore the absurdity lights upon your own head who say nothing can inform into the Will of God but the Word and yet at another time say the Scriptures declare Gods VVill but are not his VVord You go on still in Page 20. of your book and say That I confess Christ is the light that lightens every man that comes into the World and yet say it is an error for you to say that THIS light will teach people to worship God rightly Now James when did I count it an error in you to say that the light of Christ is sufficient to teach people to worship God rightly this is another of thy lyes Indeed I have often said that every man hath not the light of Christ in him and that that light which every man hath is not sufficient to teach him to worship God rightly but did I ever say the light of Christ was not sufficient Do I not say the contrary viz that the light of Christ is sufficient Page 36. of my book Thou goest on glorying in lyes and sayest Page 21. of thy Book that I do apply that text of Gods purging Israel Ezek. 24.14 to the light of Christ to prove it was not sufficient See thy false tongue when I do bring those words to parallel with Joh. 1. to prove That that Light is sufficient to inlighten all though all have not this Light within them See my book page 36. You go on and call this The next piece of my divination because I say that if every man have received the Light then every man hath received Christ c. All thou sayest to take off the edge of the Argument is That because Christ is that Light I would make that Light Christ And James what hast thou said to the contrary for is it not the same Christ is THE Son of God Ergo THE Son of God is Christ and how canst thou deny this And yet the like Argument to this thou callest Divination You answer the Scripture I bring Joh. 11.10 where it is said He that walks in the dark stumbleth because there is NO LIGHT IN HIM by telling us There is no Light in his WAY For shame man leave off thy adding to Scriptures Dost not thou adde to the words of the book doth not the Text say There is no light in him and thou sayest There is no light in his WAY But may not a man as well interpret Joh. 1. and say That when the Text saith He lightens every one that comes into the world that it is to be understood of his lightning the worlds way and not as you notion it That every one hath this Light in him This is the man that would have nothing proved by Consequences and yet when we have a plain Text for what we say viz. That they that walk in the dark stumble because there is no Light in them he shuffles it off by telling us He hath no Light in his way So that James it seems we must believe thy conceited Consequences by which thou wouldst prove every man hath the Light within him spoken of in Joh. 1. and not the plain Text that saith He that is in the dark hath no light in him You come to the next thing and that is that I say The day of Judgement is not past This thou seemest to own to be a truth by bidding me prepare for it c. But if with Lawson thou didst not believe it past thou wouldst never tell those untruths as I have made appear thou hast told in thy book For didst thou believe Judgement to come thou wouldst tremble after another manner then ever thou hast done in Quaking Delusions and fear to lye at this rate You go on still in page 22. and touching what I have asserted about Baptism and the Lords Supper in page 38 39 of my book you say You have spoken somewhat already and that must stand till it be disproved I see a short Answer serves your turn or else you might have told us where we might have found it that so it might be disproved but though thou didst finde something proposed by me about baptism thou leapest over it as though thou wast afraid to look on
it and saith nothing to several Texts alledged and nine Questions proposed but that I brought crooked Consequences and no plain Text c. The next work is he saith TO PROVE RESPECT OF PERSONS which are none of my words And he saith His 28. LYE I pervert that Text in Lev. 19.32 because I reade it as Beza renders it Thou shalt honour the PERSON of the old man But why is this a perversion of the Text when I have as good reason to follow his translation as any But 2. is not that which is done to the face of a man done to his person be it honour or dishonour And 3. are not these terms FACE and PERSON convertible as Isa 3.15 where it is said that The FACE of the poor was grinded was not this the person of the poor And whereas you charge me with lying in saying you deny respect due to Parents Masters Husbands Wives c. I cannot but wonder at you for I did not say so in any place of my book I say you did deny respect to persons which I prove ought to be because I am commanded to honour my Father and Mother c. I brought this to prove we ought to honour some more then others and you say I charge you with denying honour to Father and Mother c. But sure James thy Conscience is very guilty at this turn or else thou wouldst never have said because I brought those Scriptures to prove what I laid down that therefore I said you were guilty But hadst thou done fairly thou shouldst have spoke to the Scriptures and Arguments alledged and have shewed us in what sense the unjust Judge was blameable in not reverencing man and many other Texts which may be seen in page 39 40. To all which thou sayest nothing but quarrell'st about that I never said You go on and say That I Lye because I say Not one in ten shall give the same answer to a question if it be ask'd them severally and this thou sayest is a lye because thou sayest I never proved ten of you therein But James this is as true as the rest for I have proved twenty of you herein and to make it appear I will meet thee at any time and ask thee a question appertaining to the things of God and not one of ten shall give the same answer with thee the question being asked apart if they do I will be content to be call'd a Lyer but not before You say the next thing I would prove is That Christ had two Bodies But James why couldst not thou as well lay down the Proposition in my words as thine own my words are That Christ had a Body besides his Church and to the Arguments and Texts alledged thou sayest nothing but tell'st us a few of your own Notions as That thou wilt not dispute with me but sayest It serveth thee to know he is thy head c. But why didst not thou answer my Arguments alledged to prove what I urged in the case You go on and say You do not deny Christ taking flesh c. James I did draw thy veil from before the face of the people which thou hadst cast upon them and made thee speak somewhat plainly at the Bull and Mouth and now thou wouldst fain speak somewhat to cover over thy vile sayings but to this I shall speak anon And as touching the next thing which is that one of them said Christ was but a figure This he saith is a Lye because of the PRINTERS Errata who put page 54 of Sauls Errand to Damascius in stead of page 8. in which page he hath the words I charge though he saith there is no such saying in the book for this very thing was objected against him and he answers That Christ in the flesh was a figure And whereas I shew you that you have affinity with Gnosticks Manichees and Familists c. you answer in page 24. that it is not worth answering a cunning shift indeed but if I should say so to your questions by and by you were well enough served You go on and tell me that I have perverted the Scriptures c. but hast not shewed one Text wherein unless it be that of Lev. 19. which I have already shewed to be no perverting of it He goes on and because I say in page 45 of my book that all that I have writ against you is either from your own Mouthes or Writings you say This is a Lye but James in the same page about the middle of it you might have found these words namely That the Errors I charge you with are either such as fell from your own Mouthes or else such as your selves being charged with could not deny Now put all this together and what untruth have I told for did you deny any of those things that I say you did not deny And though you say the men were bloody persecuting Priests c. that charged you the more shame for you that you should call your book an Answer to their Petition and withall print their Objections your selves pretending to answer them and when all comes to all never deny the charge in the particulars I mention but say somewhat else in stead thereof which is nothing to purpose as you have done by me as any may see that reades your Answer both to my book and the Westmerland Petition which is a thing I never saw any further then as your selves did transcribe and print it He now comes to the Postscript at the end of my book and saith that because some saw my murtherous minde they did write down what he said Though that which they have writ to cover thy Assertion was not spoken at that time as many can witness that came out with me whatever you spake after I was gone And though you seem to carry it by witness you must know That your Witnesses are Parties being of the same faith with thy self viz. That Christ was not born after the flesh and it doth behove them to make a cloak for thee lest thy deeds sayings should be made manifest But whatever they have said that matters not since you confess all that I charge which is That Christ was not born after the flesh And how have you answered the thing I charge in the Postscript which is That it is all one to be born after the flesh as it is to be born according to the flesh and though I prove it all one in the 52 53 pages of my book yet thou makest no kinde of answer which shews that thou hast pick'd up this Letter to keep thee from the lash of the Law because thou sayest Some saw I had a murtherous design or else thou wouldst have answered what I say in the Postscript but that you did fear the light You proceed and in page 26. say that I say The Scriptures make no such distinction as born after the flesh and after the Spirit His 29. LYE