The He-Goats Horn Broken OR INNOCENCY Elevated Against Insolency Impudent FALSHOOD In Answer to two Books against the People of God called Quakers The one intituled A FULLER DISCOVERY which is stuffed with such a multitude of Lyes Slanders and perverting the Truth as the Like hath not been extant The Authors of which are John Horn Thomas Moore Senior and Thomas Moore Junior And the other Book is falsely called TRUTH' 's TRIUMPH by JOHN HORN Which are Answered for the Information of the People and the clearing of the servants of God and the way of Truth to the simple hearted from the Lyes Delusions and Fallacies that have proceeded from the Spirit of Antichrist and Blasphemy in these â—â—n aforesaid who Profess themselves Ministers of Christ but are proved Ministers of Satan and Unrighteousness By a witness of Christ and his work against all the Works of Darkness G. W. In vain have the Wicked exalted their Horn against the Righteous LONDON Printed for Robert Wilson at the Sign of the Blackhead Eagle and Windmill in Martins near Aldersgate 1660. A PREFACE OH how great hath the wrath of the Dragon that old Serpent who is the Father of Lyes been against the Seed which God hath Raised up and Indued with his Power from on High and yet this Seed hath Dominion over all the strength and wrath of the wicked One to lift up a Standard against him even when he Appears and breaks forth as a flood against the Lord and his Anointed against whom no Iniquity nor Enmity can prevail or Prosper and this hath the Lord God of Hosts made us Witnesses of to his Eternal Praise that it is no marvell to us that the Generation of Vipers and Serpents who are Warring for the Kingdom of Darkness do put forth their stings and cast out their Vennome against us since that in the Power of God we are brought to tread upon them and their deceits and if the Readers hereof have a single eye to the Lord in his Light in them they 'l see what a Body of Wickedness and Enmity hath Appeared in these our Opposers viz. in John Horn Thomas Moore the Elder and the Younger who have pleaded and much Contended for Sin which is the Devils Work and for their wearing Cuffs and Ribbonds and for Tythes which the Ministers of the New Testament pleaded not for nor ever owned such Vanities as Cuffs and Ribbonds c. So that all sober minded People who Love the Light of the Lord in them and his Truth may soon see what Spirit these are of that plead for and uphold such deceits as these men aforesaid have done And let the witness of God in all Consciences be minded by which the Spirits may be tryed and discovered whether they be of God or no and this Light of Christ in your Consciences being minded and you who have a desire to know the Lord waiting in the Light it will bring your minds into stability to feel Gods Power and Teachings where the Confusion cannot prevail over you for your Confusion and Darkness is among the Teachers and People who are as the Waters that are unstable where the Whorish Spirit Rules And wo is to such who are the Inhabitants of the Earth and of the Sea unto whom the Devil is come down and hath great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but a short time Rev. 12. 12. A BRIEF ANSVVER To the Book Called A Fuller Discovery c. EVil men and Seducers wax worse and worse deceiving and being deceived and the wise Men are turned backward and the Diviners made Mad 2 Tim. 3. 13. Isai. 44. 25. who have striven to overthrow the Truth as these men viz. John Horn Thomas Moore Senior and his Son Thomas Moore have done that their Impudency folly and Falshood more Appears than ever who have evidently shewed themselves to be such as walk with Slanders and have made Lyes their Refuge who are such as the Prophet called Brasse and Iron who are all corrupters Jer. 6. 28. which I shall here briefly shew both for the clearing of the Truth and us the Witnesses of it and for the satisfying of the Simple that they may not be Corrupted with the Lyes and Corrupt Doctrines of these the Truth's Enemies who whilest they Profess Liberty and Redemption to others and pretend a denyall of the Priests of the Nation they themselves are Children of Corruption in Bondage to the Devil that old Lyar his works which many both Priests and Professors have largely Appeared in against Gods Truth and work in his People For notwithstanding this J. Horn and Thomas Moore have acknowledged themselves to be neglecters of Christ and abusers of his Truth yet still they proceed in the same Iniquity and notwithstanding John Horn in page 55. of this their Fuller Discovery so Called where he had laid down a Falshood in his other Book now Confesseth himself subject to forgetfulness And over sights and so did in his forgetfulness write c. and in Page 66. they acknowledge that they have their share too much in the Pollutions viz. of the Nation in General and in Pag. 63. whereas John Horn had palpably belyed me about a Passage he had Learned out of a Priests Queries in Cambridge he now Confesseth himself Faulty and craves forgiveness he having been too rash in taking that upon trust which he Falsely charged me with as they acknowledge and yet how often have these Men accounted us Called Quakers false Prophets Deceivers Lyars Accursed as also they have accounted us Vipers and Scorpions Cockatrices not to be Charmed and like the Locusts out of the Bottomless pit whose sting is in their Tayles which Revilings the Reader may Judge what Spirit they came from since they have craved forgiveness of us for belying us * and yet how often have they denyed that they have belyed us in their Books may be seen but what Hypocrites are they to Profess themselves Christs Ministers and be found in Lying as they are and what is their Confession worth when they continue in their evil as an Addition to their many former Lyes Forgeries and their former Rashness and abuses against the Truth they have falsely charged us with and laid down these things following against us called Quakers which we deny and return back upon Jóhn Horn and both the Tho Moores aforesaid who are the Inventers of these Lyes Slanders and Absurdities which were never owned by us Their Lies and Slanders in their Epistle are these viz. 1. They charge us with Maintaining that that body of flesh in which Christ suffered and bare our sins and which rose again is not a Body 2. That the Blood of Jesus Christ is not of the Foundation of our Faith and that our Faith is not Faith in Christs Blood 3. That the Body of his Flesh in which he Suffered we deny to remain 4. That the lower parts of the Earth into which Christ descended and the Heavens into which he
again ascended are no local places but some Conditions or Conceits in men 5. That neither the Souls nor Bodies of the Wicked shall rise again to Judgment This with several other Lies J. Horne and Thomas Moor charge us called Quakers with maintaining or asserting insome Queries I sent to them when as I only queried them to try their belief in these things without asserting them so what unreasonable men these are is easie to see who distinguish not between Questions and Assertions who proceed in their lies thus 6. That we agree with Himneus and Philetus that said the Resurrection is already past 7. That Christ came not to Redeem men from out of the natural bodily Death 8. That such Faith as that of the Elect mentioned Rom. 8. 33 34 35. is by our Doctrines to be rooted up 9. That by our Doctrine Christ is not the Author and procurer of all good to men both natural and spiritual 10. That we deny Justification by a Righteousness imputed to us 11. That to endeavour to detect and make manifest the delusions of any to preserve people from them is a being impatient under and raging against Gods Judgments which they falsely charge us called Quakers with maintaining And with maintaining 12. That these Teachers whose Hearers do sleight and neglect the Truth Preached by them and remain sloathful formal Covetous are false Prophets whenas the words were not so spoken by us but we spoke rather in particular against them and such as being false Prophets and Hypocrites who being neglecters of Christ and abusers of the Truth themselves as they have confessed they have not profited the People Again these abusers of the Truth viz. 13. J. Horne and T. Moor charge us falsely with plainly denying Judgment after the natural Death and with denying and jearing at Christ that Holy and Innocent man that was born of the Virgin Mary as having the form and body of a man 14. That we set up another thing in his stead viz. an imaginary seed within every man 15. That we plead for a Christ without any body of man distinct from others or out of them but a certain seed with an imaginary flesh and blood dying and bearing sin in every man having no other body but what is in some men dying yea in every man in its time 16. That our Christ hath been alwayes dying and rising in men from the beginning of the World and so will be to the end 17. That we make nothing of the coming again of Christ but scoffs at him that dyed 1600. years ago 18. That we account Christ's Death and Resurrection but a shaddow 19. That the seed which we speak of in men is but a conceited Spirit that is within them with a conceited flesh and blood in them too of which they say such an Idol was scarce ever in any Generation of men set up before Wherein J. Horne and these two Moors have both lyed shamefully and blasphemed for the seed which we spake of is Christ whom the Apostles Preached which the promise was to in them and this is not an Idol as they heve blasphemed nor his flesh and blood a conceited and an imagined thing but our meat and drink without the eating and drinking of which a man hath no life in him 20. Again J. H. and T. M. falsely accuse us with maintaining that our Christ in all the reality of his body with his flesh and blood is wholy within us sensibly bearing our sins though not willingly 21. That the coming of Christ to raise the dead bodies of all that sleep in Jesus c. and the Resurrection of the dead and Judgment afterdeath is by us altogether denyed 22. That whatsoever is said of the true Christ or of his Church in the Scripture we apply to a false Christ and to our selves 23. That we come in our own Name and Authority boasting of our selves and witnessing to and of our selves and obtruding things upon men not by and in the Light and evidence of the Spirit 24. That we say our sayings are better than the sayings of the holy Spirit in the Scriptures 25. That George Fox said in Bury at Goal of one Disbrough Brother-in-law to Joseph Hagger being a Tradesman in London that he was Priest and Hireling and took Tyths which with the rest is an odious lie and slander and denyed by George Fox as also are these viz. 26. That we count our selves Lords and disdain to have any over us and revile and likely would destroy if in our power at our pleasure 27. And that our principle leads to it 28. That I wilfully played the Jesuite or Sophister to delude the ignorant with seeming like tearms 29. That Christopher Wade clearly proved a whole dozen of notorious lies against George Fox 30. And that in my Answer I give the goe-by most egregiously and in none of them reproves C. Wade Which also are filthy lies against both G. F. and me as may be seen in my Book intituled Truth defending the Quakers so that these things here mentioned against us called Quakers which John Horn and T. Moor have accused us with which are inserted in their Epistle I return back upon them as wicked lies and slanders proceeding from the envious Spirit of the wicked one in them and yet they are but a few in comparison of many more which they have uttered against us which we are clear of and more of their lies and slanders in their Book are as followeth viz. 31. That some of us say we are Christ 32. That we cast mists and cloudes in our expressions 33. That we turne Scripture sayings into fables perverting the whole Scripture to a corrupt sense 34. That by dead in Christ we mean but the spiritually dead in some some fancyed death sleeping in him the Trumpet and shout and Resurrection all Allegorical 35. 36. That we are denyers of the Resurrection Preached by the Apostles And that all men may see us to be so 37. That we count the Preaching of the Cross foolishness and turn it into a Fable or Allegory 38. That we confess not Christ come in the flesh but make him a figure of a spiritual wickedness or mysterious deceit that works in them that perish 39. 40. That we turn the words of Truth into a lie Not only neglecting but wholly trampleing the true Christ under our feet 41. That we deny the God above In these slanders also with many others against us have they shewed themselves to be frequent and common lyers all which we return back upon them as things never owned by us which if they further assay to make them good we shall know further how to make our defence that our innocency may be clear from them as we are clear in the sight of God But in these they have but done by our words as they use to do by the Scriptures of Truth perverted them and raised lies from them which is the manner of their Preaching And
words and how often do they thus leave People in uncertainties To our saying that the Light of Christ shines in Darkness in some before the morning which was in Answer to that Scripture Isai. 8. 20. which they brought to prove that there is no Light in some when as the Word is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} no Morning to him which afterward J. H. was partly made to Confesse but now he and T. M. say that we allude to 2 Pet. 1. 19 and so we Imply that the Word of prophesie the Scriptures of the Prophets for it appears clearly by the next verse they say he speaks of them as more sure to others for their Faith because more abundantly Conformed then the Apostles saying that they had such vision is not the Morning Light and that the believers that had like Precious Faith with the Apostles had not Morning Light in them and so were like those that peep and mutter and Preach false Doctrine they say Answ Herein have they belyed and wrested our words for we did not imply nor intend that the Word of Prophesie in the Believers is not the Morning Light nor that the Believers had not the Morning Light in them nor that they were like those that peep and mutter as these men have falsely said and belyed both us and the former Believers for we declared how that the Light of Christ both shineth in Darkness and how it shineth out of Darkness and how it is both the Evening and the Morning Light As also there is a time wherein the Light is not clear nor dark and when at Evening time it shall be Light Zech. 14. 7. so that they in whom there is no Morning have a Light in them as it appears in Darkness And their Affirming here that the Word of prophesie spoken of in 2 Pet. 1. 19. is the Scriptures of the Prophets and that they are more sure than the Apostles saying or words in this have they shewed their blindness for the Word of prophesie was the Light which shined in a dark place which Peter Exhorted them to take heed unto until the day dawned and the day Star arose in their hearts for why should the Scriptures of the Prophets be more sure than the Apostles Words since that the fulfilling of them the Apostles were eye Witnesses of and Preached the End and Fulness which the Scriptures of the Prophets do but prophesie or foretell off and what was not Peters words as well to be believed by the Believers he wrote to as the Prophets Words Seeing these blind men aforesaid have accounted the Prophets Words more sure then his And where in p. 59. they say that John saith Christ is the true Light that Lightneth every man coming into the World They say it is not enlighteneth in which they have falsely said for it is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which is as well enlightneth as Lightneth And where we called John Horne Impudent Lyar for charging us with a Passage about Mr. Towns-end as they call him John Horn sayes he cannot be guilty of Impudent Lying for he followed the Cambridge Queries what was Attestested in them To which I say John Horn then followed a Lying Spirit and gave himself to believe Lyes which the Cambridge Queries were full of as also that Priest who was the Author of them viz. Tho. Smith who J. Horn falsely saith bafled us his Lyes and grosse Slanders are made apparent to the Nation in a Book I gave forth Intituled The Key of Knowledge not found in the University c. as John Horns Lyes also are here like to be who hath taken part with a Lying Spirit as one who is given over to believe and Report Lyes who hereby seeks to get into favour with the Priests of the Nation whom he and T. Moore have so publikely in their discovery called Greedy Doggs strong to Appetite who Hunt after Livings and Maintenance c. And now after John Horn hath published this Lye against me which he Learned out of the Cambridge Queries he saith he might be too rash in taking it upon trust and not fathering it upon him whence he had it in that he Confesses himself faulty and Craves forgiveness in pag. 63. To which I say oh J. Horn where art thou now How often hast thou in thy Papers said thou hast not belyed me And now thou hast shewed thy self how thou hast been like the Prophets Enemies who were in the the false Reports against the true Prophets and may not thou and Tho. Moore be ashamed to say that Schollar that Disputed with us Bafled us when thou art taken so plainly in his lye and your saying so is but from his Relation Oh! what filthy Deceit and Impudency are you in Have you all this while counted us Deceivers and false Prophets and Hereticks and your selves to be true Ministers and now do you expect we should forgive you your Iniquity Oh! what Deceit Hypocrisie and confusion are you in But had you stood in that of God which made you confess your lye you had not added so many to it as you have Again you say we twit you over and over that you are neglecters of Christ and Abusers of Gods Truth by your own Confession to which you say blessed be God that you are counted worthy to suffer Reproach for his Names sake for that 's the thing you say we are mad at you for c. p. 65. Answ. Nay In this have you lyed for wherein you do suffer it is not for the Name of the Lord for you are not worthy to suffer for that since that you suffer as Neglecters of Christ and the Abuse of his Truth which you have long abused as you have confessed and yet you continue abusing it and its servants with your lyes and false Reports and you have confessed your selves Guilty of Sin with the Nation and have your share too much in their Pollutions p. 66. and have Confessed that we are a heavy Judgement of God that he hath ordered to punish you for your Neglect of Christ and abuse of his Truth so that it s not for the Name of Christ that you suffer but as Evil doers And in your Confessing your abuse of the Truth you go about to joyn your selves in with the true Prophets and Apostles saying that they use to Confess their Sins as David Solomon Isaiah Jeremiah Daniel Paul James John c. and then you say had we heard David's saying Innumerable evils have Compassed me about mine Iniquities have taken such hold upon me that I am not able to look up c. Would we not have called him Hypocrite for Faulting his Enemies as Evil doers and yet he himself so burthened with Iniquity You say and further you say had we heard Isaiah say we grope for the Wall like the blind we grope as if we had no eyes and stumble at noon-day us in the night Isai. 59. 12 13 14. For our
upon this J. Horn whom this his Book falsely Called Truth's Tryumph hath sought to Vindicate his own Corrupt Cause and to clear himself from what I charged against him in what I writ in that Book Called The Quakers no Deceivers the truth of which in his Pride and Deceit he hath sought to Trample under Foot but thereby hath he but more discovered his shame and Malice and folly and made Lyes his Refuge and under falshood hath hid himself as they spoken of in Isai. 28. 15. but the more he strives against the Truth the more he is ensnared and the worse his Cause appears Therefore he is not like to Prosper though he appear strongly in Contention for his Masters work which is Sin and unrighteousness So the Reader hereof may take notice of some of the chief of John Hornes matter which he hath laid down in order to his Fathers work who is the Father of Lyes and Lyars such as he is And to some of his Principal matter I shall briefly Answer from whence the Reader may easily Judge what Spirit the rest of J. Hornes Babylonish stuff in his Book came from In Pag. 3. J. Horne chargeth us with being an Envious and imbittered People who hiss like Serpents out of the holes This is one J. H. his Malitious Slanders for we are in that Power wherein we are a Torment to him and such Lyars as he is and in that we can tread upon such Serpents and not be stung though they shoot forth their stings against us In P. 5. J. H. Chargeth me with making the Asserting of the sayings of the Holy men of God a Warring for the Devils Kingdom Which is a Lye and a Slander against me for I make his perverting of their sayings in which he contends for Sin which is the Devils work to continue in all and all to be Sinners so long as they live a Warring for the Devils Kingdom since that where Sin is destroyed by Christ 1 Joh. 3. 7 8. there the Devils Kingdom cannot stand And what confusion is this J. Horne in in his Warring for this his Fathers Kingdom One while he pleads that the Prophets and Apostles had Sin in them and were Sinners so long as they lived as in Pages 5. and 26. and for it brings Ecc. 7. 20. 1 Kin. 8. 46. when at other timee both he and T. M. have admitted of a further state that the Saints attained to then being Sinners while they lived for they have said that they might have Sin in them when they did not do it and that they that were born of God could do nothing against the Truth 2 Cor. 13. 8. so that when the Saints sinned not or did not sin as they have granted then they were not sinners so in their accusing them with being sinners so long as they lived they have shewed their Deceit and confusion J. H. His Reason to prove that no man is perfectly freed from Sin in this Life is that Sicknesses Diseases and mortality that came in by Sin abides upon all men till the death yea and the bodily death that came in by Sin abides upon all till the Resurrection he saith In which he hath shewed his falshood and Ignorance for does sickness abide upon all men till death Surely then he would make all men live a sad life if Sickness be upon them all their Life time Again some of the Righteous may be Lyable to sickness or diseases through natural Causes as hunger cold outward sufferings which Christs when he was upon Earth also suffered and was subject to infirmities as they confess yet that does not Argue therefore that the Righteous are not freed perfectly from Sin in this Life no more than it Argues that Christ had Sin and the death which they dye who dye in him which is gain to them did not come in by sin but that death which is already upon all the wicked though living as also sickness may come as a Judgement upon such and to his saying that bodily death abides upon all till the Resurrection I say what bodily death then came upon Enoch Elijah or Melchizedeck for Sin and where dyed they that death Gen. 5. 24. Heb. 11. 5 2 King 2. And where I proffered to be willing to prove against J. H. If lawfully called either in the Market place Steeple house c. 1. That he J. H. is out of the Life and steps of the true Ministers and in the steps and Practices of Deceivers and so is a Hypocrite and no Minister of Christ who being a Parish Priest is Guilty of the Priests Iniquity whom he hath declared against 2. That he upholds a dead Formal Worship like the World c. 3. That his Ministry wherein he contends for Sin is Antichristian and both against the Commands and promises and Works of God and tends to the making both the Preaching and Praying of Christ and the Saints Ineffectual 4. And that he the said J. H. is a Forger of Lyes a false Accuser a Slanderer and so one of the Dragons Army who was wroth with the Woman that brought forth the Man-childe and the Remnant of her Seed that kept the Commands of God These I charged J. H. with and proffered to make them good against him to which he saith P. 6. My foolish Challenge as he calls it he shall not accept c. To which I say ah J. Horn thou wast herein touched what wast thou affraid to have thy works tryed and brought to light this sheweth thy Guilt but thou knowest I was not affraid to meet thee upon thy Challenge and to Vindicate the Truth which thou hast split thy self against for all thy boasting and what thinkest thou art thou clear from the Deceivers Practices and the Parish Priests Iniquity when thou art Preaching for Hire and pleading for it and Tythes did ever Christs Ministers plead for and take Tythes as thou hast done and dost thou not think your Steeple-house worship whereunto People are called by a company of Bells is dead and Formal and your Singing Davids words and Experiences in Rime and Meeter and Preaching by an hour glass where hast thou Scripture for these your Practices I Queried thee about them in a Paper I sent thee a great while ago which I never yet received an Answer to thy guiltiness in these and many other things plainly may be seen And in P. 6. Thou sayest thou sent me word that thou should henceforth have no more to do with me but according to the Apostles Counsel Reject us But thou may see thou hast herein Lyed again for wherefore hast thou scribled so much confused stuff against us if thou intended to have more to do with me and against me in particular hast thou shewn thy vennome the most In P. 6. Again thou sayest Thou shalt not go about to plead thy own Cause but leave it to God and rather take good Hezekiah's course when Sennacherib railed upon him that would not have him
now to some of J. Horns and T. Moors Doctrines in their Epistle wherein they have belyed and grosly perverted the Truth with their false constructions and inferences as to our saying that the seed of God which is Christ wherever he is known in such a low measure as a seed that suffers and is burthened in man by corruption there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin and alwayes to do his Fathers will and this seed the Power reaches to where it is begotten and in the Power it arises in them that believe in the Light for their Redemption to which J. H. and T. M. Scornfully say of this seed Christ which we speak of that he hath not ceased from sin in them nor can do in all things his Fathers will but needs a Power to reach to him where he is begotten And that we represent him as one not able to do his Fathers will in some men To which I reply that Christ cannot in all things do his Fathers will is their own words and not ours neither does it follow from what we said for his desiring to do his Fathers will in that suffering state does no more argue that he is unable to do it than when he prayed to the Father not my will but thine be done who could do nothing without the Father as also the Heir as long as he is a Child differeth nothing from a Servant though he be Lord of all Gal. 4. 1. and Christ came into the World to do his Fathers will which is the sanctification of them that believe which he desired to do before it was done and as for the Power reaching the seed which so much these men have scoffed at and counted what we said of it confused stuff in page 63. They have shewed themselves ignorant of the seed of God which the promise is to and that they never knew the work of that Power which reaches that seed as also they are ignorant of the Scriptures for it is written Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power Riches Wisdome and Strength and Honour and Glory and Blessing Revel. 5. 12. so that they might as well have scoft at the Angels of God who spake these words as at us and have said that the Power that reaches to the seed is Christ and then Christ is worthy to receive Christ as also they have done in like manner in their scorn in page 63. wherein they have shewed their gross ignorance of the several manifestations of Christ the seed in his People who are of the seed of Abraham which Christ took upon him to redeem his own and to bring to his own Power and promise which he receives of the Father And our saying that this Seed which is Christ where he suffers and is burthened in man by corruption there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin does not argue as falsely as these men infer that it cannot be said of the Seed of God that in it is no sin for Christ hath suffered by mens sins and been pressed with them and born them Amos 2. 13. Ezek. 6. 9. and yet in him is no sin and if these men were not past feeling they might feel how the Spirit of the just in them they have often grieved burthened and afflicted by their own sins and yet in that Spirit there is no sin but in them who resist it J. Horn and Thomas Moor say their Christ by that his death once suffered and in his Resurrection in that his Body c. hath overcome Death and the Devil slain the enmity and taken out of the way all that was contrary to them redeemed them from the Curse of the Law I Answer Herein have they stollen the Saints words which they are out of the like of for if the enmity were taken out of the way Sin would not be their natural heritage as they have pleaded for it and they would not have uttered so many lies and falsehoods as they have done for one of which J. Horne hath craved forgivness and if all that 's contrary to them be taken out of their way then its evident that sin and the Nations pollutions are not contrary to them for they have confessed themselves too much to have a share in them and that they are abusers of the Truth And to that 1 John 4. 17. as he is so are we in this World J. H. and T. M. give their meaning and say as Christ is unknown despised hated persecuted in his Doctrine and judged by any of the World so are we Answ. In this have they apparently lyed for Christ was persecuted to Death of the World but so are not J. Horne not T. Moor neither are they unknown of the World as Christ was for Christ was never known to Preach in a Steeplehouse by an Hour-glass for Tyths or so much in the Year in Leiw of them like the Parish Priests and Deceivers who are out of the steps of the true Ministers who walked after Christs example not after the hireling Priests example who Preach for hire and gifts and reward as these men do And rather than J. Horne will freely suffer by the World as Christ did take heed that he fall not to the Common-prayer-book And to our calling J. Horne a Priest he sayes if we mean he is a Priest of the order of Aaron a Levitical Priest we say evidently false Answ. If he be not a Priest of the order of Aaron then he plainly appears to be a false Priest seeing that in Page 70. he hath pleaded for his taking Tyths as neither repugnant to Gods Law nor Mans as also his practises therein he instances that the Priests had their several Subburbs and Quarters when as they that had these were of the Levitical Priesthood Numb. 35. Which Priesthood J. Horne hath plainly denyed himself to be one of and yet pleads for Tyths which pertained to that Priesthood which Christ ended and disanulled the commandment which gave the Tyths Heb. 7. So what hypocrisie is this J. H. in who claimes a right to Tyths as both being according to the Law of God and Man and yet upon that account denies to be called Priest when as the Law of God calls them Priests that took Tyths and does not the Law of Man the like And does not the Book of Common-Prayer call them Priests So that upon this account may J. Horne be called a false Priest he claiming a right to Tyths as by the Law of God when as the service of the Tabernacle for which they were given to the Prists of Levie he is out of Numb. 18. As also he is guilty of the false Priests practises who Preached for hire and divined for money Mica 3. 11. J. H. and T. Moor the elder and the younger say that the false Apostles it seems by what the Apostles writes of them 2 Cor. 11. 12. they use to boast of their free Preaching and in Page 71. They
hath many Members so also is Christ and now are they many Members yet but one body 1 Cor. 12. 12 20. and there is one body and one Spirit Ephes. 4. 4. but I. Horn in a Paper to me saith that Jesus hath a humane Body and Soul * where does the Scripture say that Christs Soul is humane For his Soul is divine and immortal mens natural or earthly bodies are humane and the Apostle distinguisheth between them and the Spiritual bodies 1 Cor. 15. 40 44. so that Christ hath a glorious Spiritual body in Heaven which few can discern distinct from mens teresttial or natural bodies wch are humane now if Christ hath a natural or humane body a Spiritual body his Church too which is his body which they call his Mistical body may they not as well say he hath three bodies And then why not as well four or five bodies But their Ignorance about the natural and the Spiritual bodies is so plainly discovered in our Book intituled a Brief Discovery of the Dangerous Principles c. in which the Truth is so clearly over them that I need say little as to that Particular now To that 1 Thes. 4. 15. Where its said we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord c. John Horn and T. M. say we that live and remain means but those of us that shall be found living that is of the company of believers with whom they numbred themselves because then living and possibly not knowing but they might have lived to his coming but it no more implyes that the believers of that age should live and remain till the coming of Christ then they who lived in David's age lived in Moses age many hundred years before him c. I Answer Herein these perverters would accuse Paul with speaking both ignorantly and falsely to speak ignorantly as if he knew not whether they should live and remain till the coming of the Lord who then were alive and to speak falsely in their denying that the believers of that age should live and remain till the coming of Christ whenas Paul expresly said we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them that are asleep so that they knew the several appearances and opperations of Christ till they all beheld his glory with open face as in a glass and were made to sit with him in Heavenly places J. H. and T. M. The Apostles exhort to set our affections upon things above where Christ is also at the right hand of God not upon things within your selves but upon things above Col. 3. 2. 3. I Answer If the Saints were not to set their Affections on things within themselves then not upon Christ in them for the Riches of the Glory of this mystery was Christ in them the hope of Glory Col. 1. 27. so see the darkness of these men who would as by their Doctrine divide Christ who is both in the Saints and at Gods right hand not devided nor Gods right hand devided from them who are saved by it and how should they set their affections on things above when they do not affect Christ nor his Spirit in them Page 42. J. H. and T. M. The Apostles Faith was not grounded in Christs appearing in them Page 42. Answ. Which is contrary to the Apostles Doctrine for Paul Preached to the Saints that their faith might stand in the power of God and this power wrought mightily in them and Paul said examine your selves whether you be in the faith prove your own selves know you not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be reprobates J. H. and T. M. in Page 31. accuse us with being Juglers and Jesuites that are full of lies and confusion But this I return back upon them as a lie and a slander invented in their malice for do they know us to be Jesuites Why do they not discover us to be such then After that J. H. and T. M. have denyed that they that were led by the Spirit of God did witness the creature brought into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God before their decease wherein they have discovered much ignorance of the state of them who were led by the Spirit of God who remained not all their life time without their liberty they say it is God that hath ordered the Redemption there spoken of viz. Rom. 8. 23. to be after death c. and that it was their part viz. the Apostles and so is ours to groan after it and wait for it till the time of Christ's descending from Heaven to change our vile body c. To which I say and this descending of Christ from Heaven according to these mens words is not till after mens decease when they say the bodies shall be raised And then if it be the Saints part that are deceased and the part of all believers to groan after and wait for the redemption of the body as if the Saints body were not changed nor redeemed from the bondage of corruption before their decease as these men affirm where are the Saints deceased now groaning for Redemption are they with the Father in Heaven groaning for it Or are they groaning in some Purgatory between Heaven and Hell Oh! what sottishness are these men in For in the Father is rest from burthens and bondage which caused the groaning and the Saints according to their expectations and hope knew the working of the Power of God according to which they witnessed a changing of the body of their lowness as the word renders it {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and a fashiong of it into the likeness of Christs glorious body which power these men being ignorant of they put that Redemption and the glorious liberty of the Sons of God a far of till after the decease they know not how long but their ignorance about that hath been largly manifest Again to vindicate Thomas Moors instancing for Christ's being in Heaven with a body of flesh and bones without blood in it that we do not read that there was any blood in Adam's body in Paradice To this J. Horn and T. M. say that T. Moor brought forth indeed such an observation as a conception or thought of his which rendered it probable to his apprehension that a glorified spiritual body needs not the being of material blood in it and that he reads not that Adam's body had blood in it before the fall in which he conceives what before was more purely Spirits was changed into blood and therein the body became mortal but this is but his private conception which he gives not forth as an Oracle to be believed as an Article of Faith they say Page 53. I Answer Mark the deceit and lying divinations of these men and how doubtful and confused they are in what they deliver it is known by many that Thomas Moor affirmed openly as also he hath in
transgressions are multiplyed before thee c. Would we not have said oh thou Hypocrite hast thou been crying out against us as blind and Brutish and doest thou grope like a blind man you say Answ. You have herein supposed falsely for we should not have had the same ground to call David and Isaiah Hypocrites that we have to call you so for you never came to that Innocency and Righteousness they came to after they had confessed their Sins for they suffered the Terrours of the Lord for them and Iniquity was Davids Burthen In so much that he was bowed down greatly and went mourning all the day long and so he and the Prophets did not onely Confesse their Sins but also forsook them and by the Spirit of Judgement and burning they were purged from their Iniquities But you still continue in your Iniquities and abusing Gods Truth and never suffered the Terrours of the Lord nor sorrowed as David did nor ever became such Righteous men as David was For he was not a contender for Sin not in the hireling Priests steps as you are And as for Isaiahs saying we grope for the Wall like the blinde we grope as If we had no eyes c. This Relates more to the unrighteous Rulers and Jews as an effect of their Iniquities than it doth to any Guilt the Prophet had for he was then a Seer and bad eyes that saw the Light and the straight path for he said of the Jews that their hands were defiled with Blood their Feet ran to Evil the way of Peace they knew not and there was no Judgement in their Goings Therefore said he is Judgement far from us neither doth Justice overtake us we wait for Light but behold obscurity for Brightness but we walk in darkness we grope for the Wall like the blinde See Isai. 59. 2. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. But mark how it was the Prophets Burthen that the peoples Iniquity was thus great for he saith we roar all like bears and mourn sore like Doves we look for Judgement but there is none for Salvation but it is far off from us vers. 11. but it does not appear that ever John Horn or either old Tho. Moore or the younger have ever thus Roared and mourned because of Iniquity as the Prophet Isaiah did for if they did they would not plead for it as they do nor are they come into his Innocency who are Guilty of Sin with the Nation and have a share in the Nations pollutions as they confesse and yet continue in their Iniquity of lying and abusing the Truth which the Prophets and holy men of God did not so that they cannot hide themselves and their Guilt and Deceit though they have taken it upon them to Reprove the Teachers and People of the Nation Since that John Horn and Tho. Moore have confessed us called Quakers a heavy judgement of God which he hath ordered to punish them for their neglect of Christ and their abuse of his Truth and we asked them why they Rage so against Gods Judgement Seeing they have sinned so against him To this they say were not the false Prophets and Deceivers alwayes a Judgement And did not the Prophets and Apostles alwayes Reprove them and warn People of them Answ. Here again their folly appears for neither have they proved us false Prophets and Deceivers as they were the True Prophets and Apostles Reproved nor yet that they themselves are as the true Prophets and Ministers were who owned Gods Judgements in their place and did not abuse the Truth as they do but Mark where does the Scripture ever say that false Prophets and Deceivers were ordered of God as a heavy Judgement to punish his true Prophets for their Neglect of Christ and abuse of his Truth as these mens words Imply seeing they count themselves true Ministers us Deceivers ordered of God as a heavy Judgement to punish them for their abuse of the Truth Again their counting us a Judgement as the Deceivers and false Prophets were whom the true Prophets reproved belongs to themselves not to us for these Deceivers were such as sought for their Gain from their quarters and Preached for Hire and Rewards and stole the words from their Neighbours saying thus saith the Lord when God never spoke to them and strengthened the hands of Evil doers that they might not forsake their Sins and were in their Lyes and Lightness all which John Horn and Thomas Moore Especially the Elder are evidently Guilty for they have much contended for Sin declared their own Conceptions and Devinations and J. H. hath pleaded for their taking Tythes and Hire And further J. H. in his Book called Truth's Triumph hath gone about to clear himself like as they have done here before as where I counted it absurd for him to say that People ought to account the Quakers accursed whom they have said to be an heavy Judgement to them for then they must Count the Judgement of God accursed to this J. H. saith in pag 8. for doth not Judgement begin at the House of God 1 Pet. 4. 17. and doth he not ordain wicked men for Judgement such as the Caldeans and false Teachers Jude 4. and Satan too as to Job Answ. Here J. H. his deceit is seen plainly who would fain be accounted as a sufferer with Job and one in the House of the Lord but did God ever set Deceivers to be a heavy Judgement over his house to punish it for its abuse of the Truth as J. H. hath acknowledged we are to him and such as he is For the House of God is the Pillar and Ground of Truth and was that Judgement Deceivers which began at the House of God Surely J. H. hath under-vallued the House of God neither was Job such an abuser of the Truth nor a Lyar as J. H. is nor did he suffer as such a one when God tryed him for he was a Perfect and an upright Man and one that feared God and Eschewed evil such as J. H. is not to be sure so what was done to Job was to try him Neither can he prove us such as the Caldeans were Job 1. 17. nor are we a Judgement to Gods House but a refreshment and blessing to them that are in it And as for the false Teachers spoken of in Jude they were even such as J. H. is filthy Dreamers that spoke evil of the things they knew not as he doth and went in the way of Cain to Envy and after the Error of Balaam for Reward and spake great swelling words of vanity having mens persons in Admiration because of Advantage as J. H. hath And after that J. Horne hath been pleading for Tythes and Hire he and T. M. in Page 71. Lay down as their Principle That the Priests and Levites even when they were such as blind Watchmen and Ignorant prophane Persons the Lord faults the People for not bringing in and giving them that which he by his Law made
answered again Herein hast thou shamefully Lyed again for thou hast gone about thorow much of thy Book to plead thy own Cause and hast not taken good Hezekiah's Counsel as thou hast pretended but hast answered again though to thy own confusion And in Pag. 7. Where thou sayest The Quakers would be thought to be better than the Prophets and Apostles This is thy Lye and slander J. H. And in Pag 8. To my saying the true Prophet sayes all his Judgements were before me and as for his Statutes I did not depart from them I was also upright before him and have kept my self from my iniquity 2 Sam. 22. 24 but thou sayest that David acknowledges he had then Iniquity for how was Iniquity his if there was none in him In which thou hast perverted Davids words for David saith he kept himself from his Iniquity and did not depart from the Statutes of the Lord so that then he was not a Sinner and our transgressions and our Sins the Saints spoke of when they were washed from them and their transgressions done far from them Psal. 103. 12. Rev. 1. 5. In P. 9. J. H. Saith It is true too that God promises that his People shall be all Righteous and clean from all their filthiness c. and that God is performing his promises to them that they may all be perfectly Righteous even in themselves in the New Heaven and Earth and New Jerusalem where shall be no unclean thing he saith To which Reply In this hath John Horn overthrown his former Doctrine for if the People of God shall be cleansed from all their filthiness as in Ezek. 36. 25. and be all perfectly Righteous in the New Jerusalem then they are not to be Sinners nor have sin in them so long as they live as J. H. hath affirmed for the Saints before their decease were come unto New Jerusalem and to be Citizens there and to a Kingdom that could not be shaken into which no unclean thing could come and to see the removing of the old Earth and Heaven which were shaken Ephes. 2. 19. Col. 1. 13. Heb. 12. which yet J. H. and all such as he who are contending for the Devils work are Ignorant of And as for those that John saw Rev. 14. who were without fault before the Throne of God I. H. saith all that heartily believe in Christ and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel it is Christs Office to present them holy unblameable and without Reproof in Gods sight Col. 1. 22 23. not because they are sinless in themselves he saith Mark his confusion and deceit here according to J. H. his words here the Saints who are without fault before the Throne of God and holy blameless and without Reproof in Gods sight are Sinners notwithstanding as if sin were no fault and not to be Reproved or blamed in Gods sight Oh! what darkness and deceit art thou in I. H. what art thou wholly past feeling doest thou not know in thy own particular that every Sin thou hast is Reproveable and art thou not Reproved in thy own Conscience by the Light for it surely thou art exceedingly hardened and hast denyed Christs Office in thy contending for sin to continue even in them whom Christ presents Holy unblameable and without reproof in Gods sight who live not to themselves but unto the Lord And in P. 10. I. H. Saith He that in such a sence as in 1 Joh. 1. 9. confesseth his Sins is Righteous as Christ is Righteous for Christ is his Righteousness and yet he that confesseth his sin is not without sin in himself In which he hath uttered Blasphemy against Christ for Christ hath no Sin in himself to confess as they have who are but confessing their Sins which they have who are not freed from Sin for they who are Righteous as Christ is Righteous do witness Sin condemned in the flesh and destroyed and walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit being purified from all the filthiness of flesh and Spirit And to my saying that Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the Birth was born in him or before he was Born of God which I. H. hath deceitfully perverted and wronged my words about and that Paul spake to Conditions below his own to the Romans which I. H. saith cannot be true and the other too for if Paul was but then groaning to be born and not born of God he spake of his own state and if he spake to others states below his own then is it not true that he had while an Apostle a time in which he was not born of God To which I say in this hath he shewed his blindness and falsehood for he hath not a ground for these cavals against me in that I never affirmed that Paul was but groaning to be born of God when he wrote to the Romans nor that he was not born of God when an Apostle but I know he witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the free born state was witnessed in him as also after he was come into that state himself he suffered with the body where it suffered and travailed for its redemption where it was not redeemed which body was not one member but many and for the suffering seeds-sake in those members Paul condescended to states below his own even when he wrote to the Romans all which he himself could not then be in when he so wrote yet a sufferer and a traveller under all those burthens which the body under went about whose condescending I have more fully writ in that Book called the Quakers no Deceivers Page 14. 15 16 17. the truth's whereof J. H. cannot get over for all his cavails And where thou sayest J. H. in P. 9. that the temptations God tries his People with are to try and purifie their faith from the mixtures therein In this thou art ignorant of the faith of Gods elect and the mystery of it for it is pure and stands in the power of God where there is no mixture of sin it being of another nature than sin for it worketh sin out J. H. in P. 16. Speaking of the birth which is born of God he saith he denies not but in that birth there might be degrees and grouth after nor will the perfection of it be as to the body till the resurrection thereof from the Dead To which I say that birth thou never knew nor its perfection For how could the body be a Temple for the Lord if the perfection of the birth be not as to it For the Saints were born of water and the Spirit which cleansed them from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit so that they became members of his body of his flesh and of his bone J. H. saith The Prophet Isaiah doth not witness that in them a Child was born and a Son in them was given Answ. Christ was the first born in many Brethren {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}
{non-Roman} Rom. 8. 29. and was not Isaiah one of these Bretheren Who also had been as with Child Isaiah 26. 17. Jer. 30. 6. And where in P. 19. thou chargest R. H. and me with counting Christ's coming in the flesh to be but a figure in this thou hast belyed us for it was never so affirmed by us J. H. saith Some did believe in the Light before they believed that Jesus is the Christ as Nathaniel and Cornelius and divers others Answ. Where proves he that by Scripture For Christ is that Light which Cornelius and others believed in who is not devided His words here implyes as if they that believe in the Light believed in they knew not what If they believed not Jesus to be the Christ when they so believed And my saying a man must believe that Jesus is the Christ and believe in him too before he be born of God as Christ said believe in the Light that ye may be the Children of the Light of this J. H. sayes what is this but to fight against the Apostle John 1 John 5. 1. and sayes I stick not to make John a lyer P. 21. In which he hath shamefully lyed for I own what John said and I spoke according to Christ's Testimony who put believing in the Light before being Children of it for they received Christ and believed in his name that they might become the Sons of God John 1. 22. and 12. 36 So that J. H. in not owning and believing in Christ before being born of God implyes that while the birth which is of God is but in bringing forth in man before it be born man is but in the unbelief while that work of God is but in effecting and not effected which shews J. H. his ignorance of the new birth which is not conceived without faith in the Light before it is brought forth J. H. saith P. 24. That the Creatures deliverance into the liberty of the Sons of God and the Redemption of the Sainte body which they groaned and waited for Rom. 8. 19. 20 21 22 23. could not be before those Saints deceased for saith he the Apostle vers. 17 18 speaks about their sufferings with Christ and reigning with Christ and speaks of the sufferings with him as first and the reign as a thing afterward the sufferings are of this present time or life but the glory is to be after revealed and therefore spoken of as in the future to this present time Answ. Here you may see the liberty of the Sons of God and the redemption of the body which the Saints in their life time groaned and waited for and the reigning with Christ and the revealing of his glory in the Saints all these hath J. Horne put afar off as things not attained by any in this life in all which he hath shewed himself voyd of understanding and hath denyed the Sons of God their liberty and priviledges and so hath denyed the end and effect of the Saints travail and sufferings and the work of the Spirit of adoption which was sent into their hearts and of the Son of God who was made of a woman made under the Law to redeem them that were under the Law that we might receive the adoption of Sons Gal. 4. 4 5 6. and that adoption reacheth to the body of the believers and was its redemption which for a time it groaned and waited for Rom 8. and the Saints were brought to reign with Christ upon the Earth and made pertakers of his glory being made more than conquerers in Christ thorow their sufferings and even then the Spirit of glory and of God did rest upon them Rom 8. 37. 1 Pet. 4. 14. And what gross darkness is it for him to say the Creatures deliverance into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God could not be before the Saints deceased as if it were not possible to be so And whereas from J. Horn's not owning that the Saints may attain to the redemption of the body before the bodies be raised out of the grave according to his wores I said from this then Paul is not yet come to the redemption of his body which so many hundred years since he groaned and waited for seeing that the Resurrection of the bodies is not yet come Oh! how J. Horne is vexed at me ' for thus discovering his blindness as in P. 25 he shews his venome in calling us wicked and corrupt and poor shifting for he saith the Fathers that dyed in the faith received not as then the promises and that Abraham hath not yet received all the promises for which he hoped which is another case than Pauls groaning and waiting for the redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption for the Scripture does not say that Abraham groaned and travelled for that which he hath not yet received for it s said that these all dyed in the faith not having received the promises but having seen them afar oft and were perswaded of them and imbraced them Heb. 11. 12 13. but hath not Abraham now received the promises which was to him viz. seen the increase of his seed and received the Heavenly City and Country which he and the Martyrs spoken of in Heb. 11. dyed in the hope of Since thâ—â—Abraham yet liveth and is in the everlasting Kingdome but 〈◊〉 is besides J. H. his matter about Pauls not yet being come to the redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption which so many hundred years since he groaned and waited for which bondage of Corruption J. H. and T. M. have accounted to be the Corruption of mortality in which the body corrupteth in Death and in the Grave as also they have called it rottenness in their other Book P. 48. from which it follows that Paul groaned and waited for his body to be redeemed from the corruption and rottenness in the Grave before ever the body was either Dead or laid in the Grave or corrupted there And thus their sottishness appears so that this we may lay down as their principle that the redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption which so many hundred years since Paul groaned and waited for when he lived he hath not yet attained to it Alas then they would make poor Paul have a long travail and suffering as also according to what they say in their other Book Page 47. 48. viz. That it was the Apostles part to groan after the redemption till Christ's descending from Heaven which they say is not till after the decease And whereas I said that Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord while he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord which might be all his dayes till that was written in 2 Cron. 15. 17 18 19. but not when his heart was departed from the Lord and he turned into the Rage Oppression and Persecution nor when he was in the natural state which is clear â—â—cording to 2 Chron. 16. 7 8 9 10 11 12. J.
Answer to my Queries thou seemest â—o be Resolved to say something although it be absolute contrary to the Truth and to that which thou knowest to be Truth as will appear in what followes In Answer to my first thou sayst Christ in his Spirit Ascended up to Heaven when his Body was upon Earth is this an Answer to the Question is the minde or Spirit called the Son of man according to John 3. 13. which came down from Heaven and no man doth Ascend up to Heaven but the Son of man which was then in Heaven so by this thy Answer it appears then that the Spirit is the Son of man and that there is no other Son of man that Ascends into Heaven but the Spirit then what becomes of that Body thou speaks of if the Spirit onely be that Son of man In thy Answer to the 2. and 3d. Queries thou provest In thy way that Mary did that which was forbidden by Christ when she held him by the Feet and worshipped him but in Mat. 28. 9. there is no forbiding of her to touch him but this is plainly manifest that thou art in a snare and cannot tell how to get out and yet thou wilt be saying something though thereby thou more ensnare thy self but this Scripture thou wilt once know fulfilled the wicked shall be silent in darkness When thou shouldst Answer to the Fourth thou telst of its being a secret and of prying into things above what is written although the ground of my Query is grounded upon that which is written in Luke 24. 4. To the Fifth thou saist that the Women did distinguish which was Christ was certain but how they did so is a foolish curious Question what certainty is there that they did know when thou knowest not how but this is like the rest of the Priests Doctrine beating the Ayre and leaving all People in uncertainties and yet would be paid for so doing but the Lord hath made thee manifest with the rest that you cannot deceive much longer To the Sixth thou sayest the two Angels were seen visibly but were not bodies nor Persons of men but in thy Answer to the Fourth sayst that they both saw them as men and heard them speak and had two Individual Forms Now if thou were but simple and not wilfully blind thou mightst be the more excused In thy Answer to the Seventh thou art more lost and confused then in all the rest for when thou shouldst Answer who were the 11. Disciples that were met together mentioned Luke 24. 33. Thou saist that Thomas might occasionally be gone out Answ. If he was gone out then the 11. was not together as Luke 24. Again thou sayst that Matthew was chosen before the Evangelist wrote this Book what Darkness and Ignorance is this thou art not Questioned when the Book was written nor when Matthew was chosen but who was the Eleven that was together and whether was Matthew one of the Eleven seeing he was not then chosen when Christ did arise from the dead but there needs not much be said to thee onely to let thee see thy own folly least thou should say thou art wise To the Eight thou seemst to Affirm that the Scripture are to be taken as they speak and not otherwise a Mystery Answ. Then why dost thou and the Priests give meanings to the Scriptures and do not let People take them as they speak but makes them such a Mystery without your meanings and so plain with them but this is thy Practice and Doctrine to condemn thy self in the thing that thou allowest and builds again that which thou hast destroyed and so makes thy self a Transgressor Lastly in thy conclusion thou falsely chargest me that I do not believe that any of these things mentioned in these Scriptures to be really done which is not my Faith for I do believe that those things mentioned were really done and fulfilled as the Scripture speaks but it is no new thing with thee to accuse falsely and to make Lyes thy refuge but what in all those things thou hast done against me I do forgive thee and do warn thee for the time to come that thou go not on to commit the unpardonable Sin against God and his Spirit never to be forgiven Again in thy last Paper thou declarest thy Ignorance of the two Seeds and askest what be those two Seeds Answ. These two the Scripture speaks of the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of the Serpent 2. Who did or doth sow them Seeds Answ. God doth sow the one and the wicked one the oher 3. Where be they sown Answ. In man 4. When be they sown Answ. When man had a being and a body to receive them 5. What be the bodies they shall rise with Answ. Their own bodies according to their own natures the one pure and the other defiled 6. Whether be these two Seeds and two bodies in all the world or two Seeds in every man and the two bodies to or in every man Answ. The Seeds are but two in the whole world having each Seed its own body and in every o 〈…〉 e one be cast out 7. When shall those Seeds arise or be raised whether after the bodily death or after spiritual death Answ. Every one in Its own order after the death of that which is born of the Flesh and also after the death of the spirituall wickedness which is yet alive in all hirelings and Deceivers such as thou art where the Seed of God is yet in its grave 8. What are the graves these are in and out of which they shall arise These of which the Scripture speaks which when thou comest to understand it thou wilt understand both the Seeds and graves of which we speak Christ the Seed made his grave in the wicked and in the rich in his death and out of that grave shall rise with his Body into everlasting Life if thou canst receive it thou maist be satisfied And as to thy 9. Query Why I say that the one shall rise into everlasting Life and the other into Condemnation Answ. Because it is so therefore I say so and if thou say to the contrary make it manifest but in this as in other things thy folly and Ignorance is manifest to ask why I speak the Truth which thou thy self darest not to be Truth R. HUBBERTHORNE A POST-SCRIPT AND T. M. Sen. Thou hast taken a bad work in hand now in thy old age to joyn thy self and to appear so publickly with a lying Spirit as thou hast done But how wast thou liks to do better when thou hast denyed the Lord in thy turning into the way of the coveteous Tyth-taking-Parish-Priests whose deceit thou formerly hadst a sight of and in part wast made to witnes against them but that zeal and that simplicity which thou hadst then is turned into darkness and betrayed and thou become as sottish and as dark an Earth-worme as the Priests whom thou hast witnessed against And thou art become a respecter of persons and canst bow and cring under such as be great in the Earth as they do for their own ends and thou art by many taken notice of to be more sottish dead and dark since so much thou hast partaken of the Priests iniquity then ever thou wast and the same enemy and betrayer in thee and thy two Disciples viz. J. H. and thy Son leads you out to deceive others with your dreams and imaginations and to betray the simplicity and to murder the innocent in others for which you have a sad account to give and if thou returnest not to that principle which once brought thee in part to see the deceit of the Priests but continuest in thy deceit hypocrisie and accusing the innocent and so remainest in sottishness and hardness of heart thou will be cut off perish in thy iniquity in thy old age Alas What silly men are ye You are never like to gain to your selves any honour and credit among any that are honest hearted by your Books and aspersions against the poor Quakers so called for it is so common a thing for them to undergo revilings and aspersions even from the vilest of men as Drunkards Covetous Idolaters and the like that in what you have done you have not shewn your selves any whit more eminent or famous than such but have meerly rancked your selves in the Dragons Army with them in belying and slandering the iunocent THE END * Though we own that which brings them to Confesse their Lying and Faults and can forgive but we cannot own their Dissembling and feiguedness in it * which is as much as to say not Christ in them but Christ in men and that his riches is not the possession what folly is this * That which is humane is earthly as humanus homo are of hhmus the ground from whence man was taken so that a humane Soul is an earthly Soul what then hath Christ both an earthly Soul and a divine Soul in him J. H. T. M. I. H. T. M. J. H. T. M. J. H. T. M. T. M. J. H. P. 104. J. H. T. M. * But what is the beloved City and the Camp of the Saints which Gogg and Magogg do compass about when the 1000. Years are ended Revel. 20. 8 9. whether is it an outward City or not And where shall it be and whether any be yet come to that beloved City * This is another such a reason as I Horns saying that he is not a dumb dog for he could worry me c. J. H.
theirs meaning Tythes and charged them with Robing him therein and to prove it brings Mala. 3. 8 9 Answ. Here in have they abused the Scripture for it does not say the Lord faulted the People for not bringing and giving Tythes to the blind Watchmen and Ignorant prophane Persons but rather faults both the Priests and People for breaking his Law and tells the Priests they were Cursed and faults them both as appears for withholding the Tythes from the Store-house saying Bring ye all the Tyths to the store-house that there may be meat in mine house Mal. 3. 10. and chap. 2. for at the store-house the Fatherless Widdows and strangers should have been relieved out of the Tyths which then were oppressed when the Priests were corrupt and the Tyths were not brought to the store-house which God commanded Mal. 3. where we accused J. H. and T. M. of ignorance in their pleading that all are not hirelings that take hire for which they brought Zech. 11. 12. And to our telling them it was spoken by way of prophesie concerning Judas demanding hire of the chief Priests for betraying Christ J. H. and T. M. Replyes Christ is clearly in the Prophet the Shepherd feeding the flock and asking the price not Judas as we have falsely supposed but what is said he sayes was by the Prophet Jeremiah in Matthew it is said Jer. not Zech. they say Answ. They have herein shewed their ignorance and cavelling for where did ever Christ when he was upon earth ask thirty pieces of silver of the Jews or of any for feeding the flock herein would they make Christ a hireling like themselves for in Zech. 11. 12. It is said they weiged for my price thirty pieces of silver and a goodly price that I was prized at of them which plainly hath relation to the price that Judas took for Christ of the chief Priests Mat. 26. 14. So that Christ did not take this price nor was he the hireling but Judas And where doth the Prophet Jeremiah either contradict us or the Prophet Zechariah seeing you alledge that their expression agree not And where you say that such as Christ hires and sends to keep his flock may and sometimes do prove hirelings as Judas c. A poor proof for you who are hirelings preaching for hire so Judas that hireling who carryed the bag and was a thief John 12. 6. is your way and not Christ who freely takes care over his flock and freely gives to his Ministers that they may freely give again J. H. and T. M. in Page 73. Say as for their wearing cuffs and ribbons and white boot-hose-tops they say we make a stir about trifles and lawful ornaments concerning which Christ hath not put them in bondage or forbid them to them they say Answ. If wearing cuffs and ribbons c. be lawful ornaments where is the pride and vanity in apparrel which you reproved the People for in your other Book What is not Cuffs Ribbons and Lace which many of your company wear vanity in apparrel and where you count such vanities lawful ornaments and say that Christ hath not forbid them in this have you shewn your deceit and vanity for the Apostles did not preach these things up as lawful ornaments as you have done for Paul saith I will that women adorn themselves in modest apparrel with shamefastness and sobriety not with broyded hair or gould or pearls or costly array 1 Tim. 2. 9. and Peter said whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair and of wearing of gould or of putting on of apparrel c. 1 Pet. 3. 3 4. What do you think that Christ did not speak in these Apostles And are not many of your company transgressors of his Doctrine in wearing gaudy and costly attire with their cuffs ribbons and silver lace And whereas you say concerning which Christ hath not put you in bondage nor forbid them to you we say behold your birth and what generation you are of who counts it bondage to put off your pride come to moderation Are there not some so born that would count it great bondage to be kept from whoring stealing such is their natures and the Spirits they are of And here are you and here is your liberty found in the same nature and bondage But though it be your liberty to be proud yet its bondage to them that labours to maintain you therein to the whole creation of God this we know concerning the pride and idleness and fulness of such Teachers And in that you say Christ hath not forbid them to you how is that seeing it was ever forbid to all the Ministers of Christ and their followers so we say it s not because God is more at one with it than formerly he hath been but this is the cause you having not heard his voyce at any time nor seen his shape how should he forbid you or shew you better example seeing the Scriptures you can wrest to every lust and purpose of your corrupt hearts Oh! what deceivers and Hypocrites are you to preach up and to encourage them in such vanity and pride When you should be examples of godliness and rather reprove such pride and wickedness than encourage them in it And where you say the Israelstes were not faulted of God for wearing Jewels and ear-rings and ornaments c. this cannot cover your deceit and pride for the Israelites borrowed jewels of the Egyptians such as you are and as appears they were but for a time worn for the Lord said unto them who wore the Jewels I will come up in the midst of thee in a moment and consume thee therefore now put off the ornaments from thee and the Children of Israel stript themselves of their ornaments c. Exod. 12. 35. and chap. 33. 5. and you may see as before the Apostles Preached another thing and did not wear cuffs nor ribbons nor plead for them as you do And where we charged thee J. Horne with being one of the doggs which thou said look for their gain from their quarters to this thou answers that thou charged none so I reply Oh! thou Hypocrite and lyar art thou asham'd to own thy own words wouldst thou now get into favour with ths Priests of the Nation whom thou hast so palpably writ against in thy Book called A Brief Discovery c wherein thou hast charged the Priests in Page 20. and 21. with being such as Isaiah speaks of Isa. 56. 10 11 12. Blind watch-men dumb doggs doggs strong to appetite greedy doggs hunting after livings and maintenance that look every one for his gain from his quarters and with many more such like expressions which thou and Thomas Moor have uttered against the generality of the Teachers of this Nation so that thy seeking to revoke or deny what thou hast said especially if you one begin to bite another cannot hide thy self no if thou should get the Book of Common-prayer
it would not serve thy turn if such as thou hast counted dumb doggs begin to bite thee And where in Page 74. thou and Thomas Moor accused the Quakers and the Jesuites to be either the same or of very great affinity That I return again upon you as a lie and a slander proceeding from a murtherous Spirit who before plainly countedus Jesuites and Juglers in Page 31. But do you certainly know we are such If you did you would sure make it better appear than you do that your murtherous Spirits might be satisfied J. Horne and T. Moors principle Page 75. For every neglect of Christ and abuse of his truth deprives not of God nor is accompanyed with such transgressions as not to abide in his Doctrine they say Answ. Which is as much as to say that a man may neglect Christ and abuse his truth and yet abide in God and in Christs Doctrine notwithstanding This is one of the Devils Doctrines wherein they are Ministers of Sin and not of Christ for he that abideth in the Doctrine of Christ abideth in Christ and he that abideth in him sinneth not 1 John 3 6. for Christ teacheth perfection and holiness and against all sin and abusing the truth Mat. 5. 48. and see 1 Pet. 1. 15 16. So that the pit which these men aforesaid have digged for others they are fallen into themselves and have evidently shewed themselves to be deceivers and enemies to righteousness J. H. and T. M. in Page 76. Say thus viz. We say that that body of Christ which had flesh and bones after the Resurrction of it is taken up into Heaven and is in Heaven Luke 24. 39 40 51 52. what chang or transmutation further it had in its ascention and glory we know not they say Answ. So then it appears that you know not what such a body Christ hath in Heaven and so you discern not his body for what change or transmutation it had in its ascention and glory you know not And how know you then it is a body with flesh and bones without blood in it as you have affirmed Which you would have us to have submitted to your imaginations in when now you know not what such a body it is your selves no more than you know where his blood is which you said is the foundation of your faith for it may for ought you know be turned into pure life and spirits as you have said And might you not as well have said so of his body too seeing what change or transmutation it had in its ascention and glory you know not only the nearest proof you have brought to prove it hath no blood it is a piece of a Rime or song that you have learned from among the songs set before or after David's Psalms which you say 't is probible had they thought it an error they would scarce have let it be printed there To which I say you have come off exceeding poorly to prove your Doctrine and your weakness and ignorance the Reader may easily see 'T is probible too that you did not think there was so many errors and lies in your volumn of above 20. sheets against us as there are in it which does not prove it Erroneous therefore which if your matter had been sound you needed not like the Papists have made up so much stuff and taken up such a great compass to clear your selves but you have the more discovered your folly and wickedness thereby as the more you will do the further you go on in it as also the Reader may see what weakness you have discovered in Answer to our five Questions and other Questions of ours if he read your Book but it will be a task and pretty hard for any unprejudiced Spirits to read it over there being so much confused frothy stuff in it and Cavellings nothing at all tending to Edification to be sure that in a short time it will be out of Date and but as wast Paper or an old Almanack except it be with some such Canckred Spirits as your own If John Horne pay for the Printing of such great confused Vollumnes his Preaching sure must be sold at a dear Rate and if his hearers pay for it then they know the burthen of it but however his work will come to nought for the day hath discovered him and it to be in Darkness And now Reader since that all the particulars of the said Book are not worth answering I having already answered and Rejected the things in it against us of most concernment I shall shew thee a few more consequences and Doctrines laid down by the said John Horne and Thomas Moore the Elder and his Son which we deny and thou may Judge whether they came from a true Spirit or a False J. H. and T. M. In their Epistle say That he viz. Christ may say as Paul said to will is present with me but how to perform what I would I find not They tell of Christ making his grave with the wicked before he was begotten and that he suffers before he be begotten That he by whom all things were made is in some men and yet his Power not begotten That when the Power Reacheth to the Seed it rises in it by Degrees surely as men in whom he is Give way to him That he viz. Christ hath neither done dying nor been at any time without his Reigning That he viz Christ Bare his own Sins in his Body and is the Propitiation for himself seeing the Church is he or part of him Page 29. That the dead in Christ were Raised before Paul and the believing Thessalonians dyed and so they did not sleep as to their Bodies but were suddenly changed and taken up to meet the Lord in the Ayre And in vain do men look for Christs coming to Raise the dead for that 's past and gone before the Apostles Age was Past The Resurrection of the Just is over See Pag. 32. That the Flesh of Christ which we eat is something of the Church the Flesh and Substance of the Church and so the Church is to eat it self Page 30. These are John Hornes and Tho. Moores Own words which we utterly deny and the Reader may see if they have not therein spoken Blasphemy Again to our saying That now the Lord makes a new Covenant with his People when he takes away their Sins not according to the old Covenant which the Israelites brake according to Heb. 8. 7 8 9 and Jer. 31. 31 32. and ch. 33. 8. To this J. H. and T. M. say Pag. 17. It seems then in this time they may be Sinless and yet Sin Lye and forge and traduce and yet not Sin in it all Judge Reader is this a good Doctrine or Consequence of theirs which they draw from the words of Truth and Scripture And further Mark what Doctrines J. Horne and Tho. Moore have laid down They Affirm 1. That every Sin is not deceit 2. Nor every deceit Guile