A Fuller Discovery OF THE Dangerous Principles And lying spirit of the People called Quakers made manifest in George Whitehead John Whitehead and George Fox the younger In their Book against Iohn Horne and Thomas Moore of Lin Regis in NORTHFOLK Written by the said Thomas Moore and Iohn Horne for the fuller satisfaction of all such as desire to be further satisfied about the evil and erroniousnesse of the said People called Quakers Most men will proclame every man his own goodnesse but a faithful man to Christ and his Cause who can find Prov. 20. 6. I marvel yee are so soon removed from him that called you not into your selves but into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ But though we even Apostles or an Angel from heaven persons of most Angel-like carriage and appearance preach any other Gospel unto you as the following Discourse shews that these Quakers do then that which we the Apostles have preached unto you let him be accursed Gal. 1. 6 7 8. LONDON Printed for John Allein at the signe of the Rising Sun in Pauls Church-yard 1660. THE EPISTLE TO THE READER ONce more we have herein presented thee Courteous Reader with a discovery of the People called Quakers in which thou mayest see from their own written and printed sayings by what manner of spirit they be led and what manner of Doctrine they publish and strive to maintain and indeed the naughtinesse of their way is made manifest partly by their Principles and Doctrines broachedly them and partly by the manner of their carriage in their managing and maintaining them Wee shall give thee here a brief account of both in a few Observations 1 For the Doctrines and Principles maintained by them thou mayest observe in their Queries sent us printed with our Answers to them at the close of our Answer to their Book against us as hintâ—d and in their book more clearly asserted or implyed these following viz. I. That Christ hath no other body but his Church no personal body and so that that body of his flesh in which he suffered and bare our sins and which rose again is not a body or is not in being Book pag. 7 8 9. answered by us in our Reply pag. 25. to pa. 42. and Quest 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11. II. That the blood of Jesus Christ or his personal abasement sufferings in the flesh to the shedding and pouring out his blood and soul to Death sustained by him once in the end or last Ages of the World are not the foundation or of the foundation of their faith so that their faith is not faith in Christs blood as so considered nor is that precious blood or those sufferings of Christ that wherewith their conscience is purged or the spiritual drink of the soul but some other thing principle or spirit in men which they put the Name of the blood of Christ upon See if this conceit or Doctrine in both parts of it negative and affirmative be not hinted in their Quest 12 13 14. seeing the body of his flesh in which he suffered they deny to remain and yet say his blood is in his flesh what can they mean by his flesh but something of his Church which onely they grant to be his body and so that his blood is nothing but some seed principle or sufferings in his Church their pleading against his blood or suffering as the foundation or of the foundation of Faith thou mayst see in their book p. 14 15 16 17. answered by us here p. 52 53 54 c. III. That the lower parts of the earth into which Christ descended and the heavens into which he again ascended are no local places but some conditions or conceits in men Qu. 3 4 5 6â— Book p. 8 9. answered by us p. 26 27 33. IV. That the same body that dies shall not rise again in the Resurrection Book p. 10 11. Answered by us p. 42 to 46. and Quest 16 17. V. That the souls of the wicked shall not come out Hell at the great day of the Resurrection and judgement to be further judged they imply Quest 18. and so that neither the souls nor the bodies of the wicked shall rise again to judgement VI. That that coming of Christ in which the dead in him shall be raised and be caught up into the Ayr together to meet him and be ever with him and in which he shall descend from heaven with a short and the sound of the trumpet c. mentioned 1 Thess 4. 15 16. is already long since past For they say the Apostles and Believers of that Age in which the Apostle wrote remained to it Book p. â— Answered p. 32. Quest 15. and so they agree with Hymeneus and Philetus that said the Resurrection is already past 2 Tim. 16. to 18. VII That the Christ we look for to come from heaven again they desire not the knowledge of Book p. 10. Answered p. 41. VIII That they are sinless or have no sin in them they deny not and that those that are believers in Christ and born of God are perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them Book p. 1 to 6. and yet that the little children that John wrote to who were also born of God and know the Father might have sin in them Ans p. 9 10. to p. 24. IX That all sin is guide when as the scripture distinguishes guile from other sins and other sins from guile 1 Pet. 2. â— and sayes some have no guile in their spirits who yet have sins though forgiven and covered yet there to be covered Psalm 32. 1. 2. Book p. 4. 5. Answ p. 17 18. X. That Adam might have died the natural death if he had not sinned and so that the bodily or natural death came not in by sin Book p. 6 7. Ans p. 23. XI That Christ came not to redeem men from out of the natural or bodily death B. p. 7. Ans p. 25. XII That our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots and so by consequence that all the faith that is grounded in Christs appearing and suffering for us without us and in his appearing in heaven for us and so such faith as that of the Elect mentioned Rom. 8. 33 34 35. is by these mens Doctrines to be rooted up Book p. 10. Ans p. 41 42. XIII That the Apostles and all that were led by the spirit of God c. witnessed the Redemption of the body spoken of Rom. 8. 23. when they were upon the earth and did not put it afar off as they deridingly phrase the looking and waiting for it till after death in which they say again in effect that the resurrection of the believers body is made in this life Book p 11 12. Ans p. 47 48 XIV That the knowledge
know that none such are allowed by the profest Church in England called Protestants for many years Or 3. A Heathen Priest appointed to offer bodily and bloody sacrifices to some Idol or false God if they use it in such a sence they then not onely reproach and lie against John Horn and the other but also intimately blaspheme against God and Jesus Christ the Lord as if he was but an Heathen Idol or false God for to none other doth John Horn perform any Act of Divine Worship It s probable they mean it in this sence for so one of their society at Whithesee called one that reads the Scripture in the Congregation Priest and when intreated to forbear be-because the Scriptures read are the Words of God and discover Christ the Lord and prayers were directed to God in his Name and the Gospel by one also was then Preached and Christ is the true Lord and not Baal he grew more fierce at that and called Mattan Mattan Mattan meaning Mattan the Priest of Baal 2 Kings 11. 18. By which thou mayest see Reader what reproachers they be of Christ and the Christian Religion in any of these bad sences if they use this tearm Priest of J. H. they are not onely revilers but notorions lyars Or 4. If they use it as prophane men in contempt of the Ministers that know not else what sence the word Priest hath save onely they judge it reproachful then have they at best joyned therein with the false prophane scoffers Ishmaelites and evil men And so it appeares however that they were not led by the Spirit of Truth which leads none to be revilers so that had they called their writing their own witnesse and not the witnesser of the truth in them which indeed is not to them 1 John 1. 8. 10. they had done yet lesse evilly then they have in putting their falshoods and reproaches upon the Truth 3. But besides these their Book is full of reproaches elsewhere as that we accuse the Saints and brethren pag. 3. Are in confusion and are wise men of Babylon pag. 5. and 7. Rail against the Innocent pag. 5. plead for sin pag 6. Say that we like fools whom the Apostles reproved would not be satisfied with their Answer pag 10. That the Body of Christ which is Spiritual is not discerned by us whose minds are out of his spirit pag. 8. that we establish a blinde and dead Faith pag. 15. Are blind guides pag. 16. 18. that we know not naturally pag. 13. That they might have received as good an answer from School Boys pag. 16. Call us dreamers and this say they is a dreame and one of John Horns divinations pag. 17. Call us Hypocrites and power out a great deal of abusive and reproachful Language against us for owning our selves as part of the Nation that have neglected Christ and long abused the Truth pag. 22 23. c. Yea their latter part is full of abusive reproaches and revilings as well as their inward parts full of deceit and naughtinesse not like the good Apostles that brought not railing accusations though against the Deail but like the Apostles and false Teachers whose mouths are full of cursing and bitternesse 7. To name no more They carry on their own work by proud boastings and speaking high swelling words of vanity vaunting of themselves and in that also walk in the steps of the false Apostles and false Teachers who were proud boasters Fierce Heady High-minded dispisers of them that are good c. And like the Old Pharisees that justified and lifted up themselves as Righteous and dispised others Luke 18. 10 11 12. 2 Cor. 5. 12. and 11 12 13 14. 18. 2 Tim. 3. 2 3. 2 Pet. 2. 1. 10 11 12. 18 19. Judges 13. What boasters of themselves they be may appear by those passages and the like As for the Quakers dying because of which they would accuse them with being sinners here their darknesse speaking of us appeares as if the Quakers might not be thought to be sinners Again we say they of themselves shall be a heavier judgement unto you for we are a burthensomâ— stone to all the ungodly and the more ye strive against us the greater will be your torment Cease striving against the Truth of God and us his People for the more ye strive against us and the Truth we live in and are witnesses of which Truth is Christ who is also in us c. And a little after the Mighty Powerful presence of the Lord doth accompany us whereby we reach the faithfull witnesse of God in the People which answereth to the Truth of God declared by us pag. 23. The contrary to which notwithstanding these great swelling words appeared in George Whitehead in his discourse with J. H. at Lin since the foresaid vapour he being mightily baffleled as the Audience then present can witnesse So they boast themselves of their Teaching freely and not being greedy of filthy Lucre but doing what they do out of a willing mind c. This say they is owned and practised by us the servants of the Lord called Quakers c. Pag. 28. And so did the false Apostles it seems by what the Apostle writes of them 2 Cor. 11. 12. They use to boast of their free Preaching of their corrupt Doctrine too though it cost them that receive it too dear how cheap and free so ever it appeared Yea the whole latter part of their Book is little but reproaches of us and boasting of themselves Such their Doctrines and such the way of their managing them judge Reader of them both impartially and of the further discovery of them in the ensuing reply From which we shall no longer detain thee Read seriously and pray heartily to God for manifesting his Truth to thee and guiding thee into it and keeping thee from errours to him committing thee we rest March the 27th 1660. Thy helpers in the Faith and Truth of Christ JOHN HORN Sen. Juni THOMAS MOORE A FULLER DISCOVERY Of the Dangerous Principles and Lying spirit of the PEOPLE Called Quakers Made manifest in George Whitehead John Whitehead and George Fox the Younger in their Book against John Horne and Tho. Moore of Lin. HOw grossely Ignorant miserably Erroneous and Impudently wicked the Quakers be all may perceive that are of ability to judge and discern indifferently between us and them in what hath bin published by either of us yet for the sakes of those that are not able to discern by a bare reading of what they have writ or will not be at the paines to compare us impartially We have herein further noted their Ignorance Errour Confusion Hypocrisie and Deceit to their hands in which they that will but compare us may see our integrity in our dealing with them However we shall desire to Approve our selves to God therein and make manifest their deceits and falshood so as all that will may discern them 1. They lay down ten Principles in their
the living God he was before the World was Reply But this too is false and fallacious for Christ is the Power of God as he was Crucified 1 Cor. 1. 22 23 24. and to know him so is not to know him as he was before the World was he was the Power of God before the World was but to know him as he was the Power of God before the World was is not the knowledge of him to Salvation To assert it is not to confesse but vertually to deny him as come in the Flesh The like we may say of the other phrase he is not the living God the Saviour of all men as he was before the World was for he is the living God now in the Manhood or as Immanuel God with us as made flesh and dead and raised but so he was not before the World was and as not the living God in mans Nature or Incarnate or promised so to be as such considered or as therethrough made manifest he is not since the fall the object of our knowledge to Salvation and though they say they do not deny his knowledge as in his flesh that is an Equivocal deceitful speech its evident what they say puts no necessity or grants not the sufficiency of the knowledge of him as come in the Flesh and so doth not confesse or magnifie it but exalts as sufficient that that was before and without it W. and F. They say When we can prove nothing against them and yet we have made good all our charge against them hitherto we have invented these lies against them that they may and can in their canting Language say he is manifest in England and is persecuted and dies and rises as well as in Judea and Jerusalem and that however they make no thing of his being born suffering and dying in the flesh and there they say they utterly deny us and charge us as forgers of lies for they never use they say such canting Language against Christ but own his sufferings in Judea and Jerusalem as he was a true offering and propitiation for the sins of the whole World whose sufferings were effectual both for the pacifying the Fathers wrath and for the reconciling the whole World as is witnessed by them who receive the power of his life which was manifested through Death to them that truly believed through Christs sufferings Reply To which we say that they use such canting Language we call for witness John Toldervy in his Foot out of the Snare where he tells of the Quakers turning all the Scriptures into Allegories as about Adam Moses Christ Jerusalem c. Which neither James Naylor in his Book against him contradicts or faults him for nor doth himself retract in what he write by way of submission to James Naylor in his Book called the Naked Truth yea and in a Letter to us George Whitehead saith that the Blood of Christ suffereth mark suffereth with Christ where he suffers marke its in the Present Tense for the prisoner which by the Blood of the Covenant is to be brought out of the Pit which can hold no water Now if Judea and Jerusalem be in men and Christ suffereth yet for the prisoner to be brought out by the Blood of the Covenant cannot they say Judea and Jerusalem are in England as well as any where Yea said they not above that that our faith is to be rooted out that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us Now if their faith be grounded in Christs appearing in them must it not be in Christs dying and crucifying in them if at all in his dying But indeed it is not grounded in his dying at all if it be in the knowledge of him as he was before the World was and so to what purpose say they or what do they but cant when they say that they own his sufferings in Judea and Jerusalem as he was a true offering and propitiation for the sins of the whole World and that his sufferings were effectual both for the pacifying the Fathers wrath and reconciling the whole World Let them tell us when they write again where that Judea and Jerusalem is whether it be not in them yea or nay by his sufferings at which they are reconciled to God how do they own any sufferings in Judea else Not as any thing their faith is grounded in unless they were sufferings in them and he appeared in them in those sufferings and so the Judea and Jerusalem where he appeared and suffered be in them seeing they root up the Faith otherwise grounded and how was his suffering in Judea without or any sufferings past effectual for the reconciling the whole World or pacifying the Fathers wrath and yet Christ suffereth for the Prisoner to be brought forth by the blood of the Covenant which prisoner we shall finde by their sayings afterward to be Christ too and what need of the owning him as so suffering if it be not the knowledge of him to Salvation but as he was before the World was when he suffered not They that consult with their Books may see but canting in all this for if we may believe what is printed as their Answer to the Cambridge Queries they justified Richard Hubberthorns saying that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure which since I writ the former expressions I see not disowned but justified by G. W. in his answer to them with one or two filly frivolous pleas as how could Christ else be said to have been transfigured And did not he namely the Scholer he answers never read that Christ is the figure his Fathers substance c Which may serve to cheat silly men and women but if Christs coming was but a figure then not the true Pacifier of Gods wrath nor reconciliation of the World they also falsifie our saying in the last clause recited for it was not as they repeat it but thus however in the foresaid expression they make nothing of his being born suffering c. Those words in the foresaid expression are subtilly left out the better to hide their deceit in faulting us from those that have not their Books to compare their sayings with and we appeal to all whether if the knowing him after the Spirit as he was before the World was be the knowledge of him to Eternal Salvation they therein make anything to purpose of all his dying and suffering in the flesh Seeing those things were not done or suffered by him in the Spirit as he was before the World was W. and F. p. 13. They charge us with belying Geo. Whitehead in saying he alleadged 2 Cor. 5. 16. To prove that the Apostles did not know Christ as one that suffered in the flesh or to be in the flesh but it was brought they say against our knowledge which is Carnal and stands in Immagination and neither truly know Christ as he was in the flesh nor after the Spirit but contend against the knowing him as he was before
not have done had he in no sense or in no good sense known God Thirdly Nor doth God at all reprove Elihu as speaking a misse in any thing of him as he did Job and his other friends So that the matter was not material onely it showed that I was forgetful and are not these men so too Or are they more then men Sure they would be thought so and not to be of them of whom James sayes my Brethren be not many masters that is be not censorious and harsh lording it over men as if you were without Spot or failing knowing we shall receive the greater condemnation for in many things we offend all the people must conceive that all they write and say is by infallible inspiration To this purpose was it that George Fox happening to come by a letter I writ in answer to G. W. in vvhich being the first draught of it upon some revievv finding some things spoken to in the substance of them in two or three places as I was occasioned by diverse passages of like import in G. Ws. Letter I had blotted out in one place 2. or 3. lines as sufficiently spoken to in another place and instead thereof write some other things that came to my mind that I judged meet now G. Fox finding this writes in the margin of my letter this or the like question whether what I had first written and blotted out I was led to write by the Spirit of God c. and yet in Geo. Ws. Letter there were many blottings out of words as for Ministry of sin which he had writ he blotted it out and writ sinful Ministry and in one place interlined a whole line are not these right Pharisees and Hypocrites that will fault failings of Memory and such corrections of mistakes as passe in us and therein glory and pretend to others as if all they writ and spake was by the Spirit and yet wherein they glory they are found even as we as is said by Paul of the false Apostles 2 Cor. 8. 11. As for God speaking against Eliphaz as not speaking of him the thing that was right as Job did it was after Job had humbled himself and confest his fault and God had forgiven him for before God faulted him also as not speaking rightly of him See else Job 38. 1. 2. and 40. 2. Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him he that reproveth God let him answer it sure he that reproveth God doth not speak right of him So ver 8. wilt thou disannual my judgement and condemn me that thou mightest be righteous But again doth it follow that because Eliphaz spake not rightly of God in some things therefore he speak not right of the Angels or nothing at all right of God Is not this a right thing that he said of God that he doth great things and unsearchable marvilous things and without number and that he gives rain upon the Earth c. Job 5. 8. 9. Beside that what Eliphaz said of the Angels as charged with folly is related by Eliphaz rather as a thing revealed to him and said to him in a vision by a Spirit then as any saying of his own see else Job 4. 13. 14. 15 16 17 18. But would ye know why G. W. made this exception against my quoting of Eliphas his words it was because I said it was the good Angels way to abase themselves in Gods presence and not to proclaim themselves holy but God as not judging themselves pure in comparison of him whereas the evil Angels use to proclaime themselves as Gods and desire to be worshipped and because I compared the Quakers practice to that of the evil Angels and not of the good therefore George would put that off by saying those were Eliphaz his words that spake not aright of God but I mentioned also Isa 6. 2. 3. 4. which he fairly past over with silence thinking his exception against that in Job 4. and 15. was enough to blind his seduced Disciples eyes that they would never minde what Isaiah said as for my belying the Servants of the Lord as he falsely calls the Quakers in my Book and false Letters sent abroad into the Country as he charges me thou mayest judge of the truth of that Reader by the truth or falshood of these Quakers in all hitherto discovered it s no discredit to be called a lyar and deceiver by lyars and deceivers they say I have often belyed them and they could produce them t is well they do not produce them though but onely say what they can do thinking you will call them Masters therein and take it for a truth upon their bare say so But can you think their charity such to me as to have mentioned no one thing I have belyed them in if they had many to produce What they say about our probable Arguments on both sides about the reuniting of the blood of Christ with the body in his Resurrection needs no answering The impartial Reader of our Book may observe that there is onely mentioned what might be alleadged on either part of the question without any determinations and so that they say falsly that we guessed it either way that a School-boy could have given as good an answer as we gave above against which they are able here to except nothing save to dissemble it that we gave not that answer then is not very credible but if so it seems these Prophets could have given no better neither for they fault us not they say for not asserting it in the Body of Christ their revilings and reproaches we pass over in silence onely whereas amongst those probable arguments we said about that in 1 Cor. 15. So Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God that in the changed state what was blood before might be changed into Pure Life and Spirit the thing or substance remaining though not in the same form of Blood which yet we conclude not but lest to the judgement of the able in the Church They say This is a meer dreame and one of J. Hs. divinations and contradicts Moors words for he said that the Life of Christ is not in his blood We Reply That it is a dream or divination of J. Hs. cannot be because it s not his assertion that it is so but so it may be for ought they or I can shew to the contrary nor contradicts T. Ms. words for if it be changed into pure spirit and life yet not in the form of blood which last words they crastily left out the better to deceive the simple and make it seem a contradiction then is not his life by that supposition in his blood in the sence he spake it in that is the life of his glorified body is in not in the Blood if it be not Blood but pure life and spirits so as to be nourished by the supply of blood as the natural body is the Scripture they allude to speaks of the mortal
of Christ after the spirit as he was before the world was when as he was not come in the flesh or promised as one to come is the knowledge of him to Eternal Salvation Book p. 6 7 8. Answ p. 48 49 50. XV. That the Scriptures are not a medium of faith Book p. 18 Answ p. 58. 59. XVI That the light wherewith Christ lighteth men is not both natural and spiritual light or good Book p. 20. It seems he is not by their Doctrine the Authour and procurer of all good to men both natural and spiritual and so we are to thank him and God by him for both see our answer p. 61. XVII That they that speak not according to the Law and Testimony and whom we should not seek to for direction though they have no morning light in them yet have Christs evening or candle-light and so that by the Prophet Isaiahs counsel men should not listen to them that have but Christs evening or candle-light Isaiah 8 20. and yet the Apostle Peter by these mens Doctrine commended the Believers for taking heed to the evening or candle-light of Christ that was not the morning light 2 Pet. 1. 19 20. and as if Christs candle-light would lead men to speak otherwise than according to his Law and Testimony and yet is to be heeded to by men Answ p. 62. XVIII They deny the continuance and usefulnesse of the outward Ordinances of Baptisme and Lords Supper or eating Bread and Wine in remembrance of him till the end of the World in the Church of Christ in a manner deriding them Quest 19 20 21 22. XIX They intimately deny justification by a righteousnesse imputed to us contrary to Rom. 4. 5. 11. and maintain a justification by righteousnesse within which indeed in them is a meer unrighteousnesse as denying and evacuating the virtues of Christs sufferings in his own personal body and his sacrifice for us Quest 25. XX. That to endeavour to detect make manifest their delusions or the delusions of any others and to preserve people from them is a being impatient under raging against Gods judgements or else that it is no judgement of God to have delusions and Deluders sent amongst us to exercise and trouble us or that we ought not to contend against them Book p. 23. Answ 68 69. XXI That these Teachers whose hearers do sleight and neglect the truth preached by them and remain not withstanding it slothful formal covetous c. are false prophets by which conclusion they involve him who said he had laboured in vain and spent his strength for nought that would have gathered Jerusalems children often but yet they were not gathered even Christ himself Isa 49. 4 5. Mat. 23. 37. Yea and all the Prophets and Apostles of Christ who had many such hearers as if they also were false prophets Book p. 28 29. Answ p 7â— 74. XXII That Christ is a seed of God in men which in some wants Redemption and is burthened by corruption and desires to be free from the burthen of sin and alwayes to do his Fathers will and so hath not ceased from sin in them nor can do in all things his Fathers will but needs a power to reach to him where it is begotten to set him free redeem or raise him up in which power he arises in them that believe in the light for their Redemption Book p. 21. Answ 63 64 65. XXIII That Christ is first known as one without form or comâ—linesse and is in some a seed that yet suffers and in others reigns and is known to be Prince of peace so that he both suffers and reigns at once in divers persons Book p. 21 22. Answ p. 63 64 65. Such be the Doctrines discovered in their writings to us concerning the last two because therein is a discovery of that Imagination of theirs which they call Christ and which they preach as the true Christ or as James Naylor in his Book called Love to the Lost sayes is the seed of Abraham which Christ takes after the flesh We shall note some things here more particularly as 1. That by Flesh and Seed of Abraham after the flesh they mean not any natural Seed or Body of man but a certain seed or principle in every mans mind whether he know it or no which in some men is not fully able but desirous to follow after God and be free from sin they say not to free him in whom it is from sin but to be free it self from sin and yet this seed with them is the Christ the Word that was made flesh the true light that is in every man that comes into the World and that is manifested in men to take away their sins yet it cannot be said it seems of it that in it is no sin but for it desires to be free from sin and follow God but it seems doth not nor can yet in some men till raised by the power and when so manifested in men they are perfectly sinlesse 2. When they say this Seed or Christ is known in some men as suffering and burthened with corruption and desiring to be free from sin c. is not that the death of their Christ or do they not blaspheme the true Christ who is raised and made a quickening spirit while they represent him as one not able to do his Fathers will in some men and as one that needs Redemption and to be set free himself 3. When they say this seed the power reaches to where it is begotten and in the power it arises c. is not that the Resurrection of Christ with them for mans Redemption and Justification and so the believer in the light for redemption believes first in a dying Christ dying yet in him unlesse the light he believes in be another Christ or some thing besides Christ or rather their candle-light which is put out in the wicked is all one with their Christ suffering and making his grave with the wicked and their Christ Redeemed and rising in men is the light reviving as the morning light in them and then the man is redeemed and raised sinlesse too and so there is their and their Christs Resurrection together 4. And yet again mind their strange expressing of this Redemption and Resurrection of their Christ This Seed say they the Power reaches to where it is begotten and in the Power it ariseth What is this power that they say reaches to that Seed is it Christ or not Christ If it be not Christ then it seems their Christ crucified or burthened with corruption is not the power of God but needs another power to Redeem him that is not he no alas their Christ lies strugling under corruption as weak it seems as the poor believer himself that cryes out wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this Death So that what Paul said of himself as carnal and sold under sin is true of their Christ in some he
idols will I cleanse you And as God promised to do so doth and will he do the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin and yet it follows If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves and he is the propitiation for our sins 1 John 1. 7 8. and 2. 2. As was before noted he that forgives and cleanseth us by way of pardon from all sins bids us also pray as duly as for our daily bread forgive us our trespasses c. 3. As for exhortations to be perfect they prove not the being of the thing exhorted to They supposed above the little children to whom the Apostle wrote that they might not sin might have sin in them not withstanding Nor is all perfectiom perfection of sinlesness in mens selves Asa was perfect hearted all his daies and yet had sin and sinned 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 9. And yet every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord he saies not he is so yea in saying he shall be he implies he is not yet so but when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is This we granted but they skipt it over 4. The Apostle said they were circumcised with the circumcisiou made without hands in the putting off the body of sins of the flesh but it was in Christ he saies for so much the words in whom signifies And the same Apostle in the same Epist Col. 1. 10. 11 to the same people therefore he saith but now you also Mark now also put off all these anger wrath malice blasphemy filthy communication c. Col 3. 8 9. it seems then they had those things yet to put off still for can any put off what is not So to the Ephesians too when he had said they had learned to put off the old man and put on the new he addes wherefore putting away lying speak every man truth to his brother a lesson these men have not yet learned To the Corimbians also he saith purge out the old leaven that ye may be a new lump even as ye are unleavened so that in some sense in Christ they were unleavened and yet in other sense needed to purge out the old leaven which implies it was yet in them for how can a man purge that out of him that is not in him but they through ignorance confound these things and run themselves and Auditors into delusion Again p. 5. l. 36. They distinguish the true Prophets Christ and his Apostles from themselves that are accused by us and so again imply that they be neither the true Christ nor his true Prophets or Apostles Reader mind it they give out themselves for Prophets and Apostles and some of them say they are Christ but they are false ones and why then plead they for their false prophecyings and witnessings But they indeed shew their confusion and rayling against us as after will appear to their own delection and shame as for their innocence no liers are innocent but they be over and over proved liers that perfect heartedness and compleateness in Christ may consist with sin being in men in this life we have shewed And they cannot disprove unloss they will blot out Col. 2. 10. with Chap. 3. 8. 2 Chron. 15. 17. so 1 Cor. 5. 8. 9. Which we noted above either let them say those Scripture sayings are false or else own their own words to be false in saying that we fight against our own words and that they that are compleate in Christ are perfectly freed from sin namely as to all inherency of it in themselves or they say nothing to purpose that sinners are out of the compleatness of Christ which though in some sense true viz. Of sinners out of Christ yet is not universally true except Paul when he said of sinners I am the chief was out of Christs compleatness that the heart that hath sin dwelling in it is not perfect contrary to 2 Chron. 15. 17. with 16 17. Where Isaiahs heart is said to have been perfect all his daies and yet he is charged with relying on the King of Asyria and not relying on the Lord his God and those were heart-sins surely and they dwell there too for some time as the verses before manifest p. 6. They accuse us of confusion that we say believers are come to a further state and covenant then Adam was in before his fall who then had no sin in him and yet accuse the believers they say with having the body of sin or not being perfect while here Rep. Here they shew their own confusion for the believers being in a better state or convenant in Christ hinders not their having sin yet in themselves to purge out as is evident in Col. 2. 10 11. with 3. 5. 8 9. No more then it hinders them from having infirmides and death which Adam unfallen had not besides they have added a lie or two as that we accuse the believers with having a body of sin then Paul accused them when he said the believers old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed the words might be plainly imply it a thing not then done but to be done as in all like expressions is evident and that we accuse them with not being perfect when in divers respects we grant them to be perfect as perfect in Christ Jesus and many of them perfect with Christ in their Spirits without guile there and perfect comparatively to some others c. In the same page they wrong us in giving it as our saying that Adam might possibly sin and die but not so the believers whereas we added what they suppress to not so the believer not under a covenant of works here nor hereafter the resurrection capable of sinning and dying as Adam before his fall was again they say we would accuse the Quakers of being sinners because of their dying which is false let any man read our book p 3. What we said is thus that the Quakers are not in Adams state before the fall because Adam had no death then upon him as the Quakers have for they must die but they say here our darkness appears for believers dying the natural death doth not prove them sinners while here for through death they gain more of the peace and glory of God which they partake of in their life time which is both confused and inconcludent for what if the believer gain by his death may it not therefore argue he had sin in him while he lived is not the being freed from the body of death and inherency and combating with sin again think they Though we did not bring it for an argument to prove what they charge us with as we before discovered and for their confusion their words sound as if they believed that the greater gain by their death they have it all in this live for they say not more of the peace and glory of God then they partake of in
baffled them as there it appears had the Book out of which it is quoted If it be not so as he sets it down let the fault lie at his door For J. H. never see the Book though he sent for it that he might have seen it he might be too rash in taking it upon trust not fathering it upon him whence he had it in that he confesses himself faulty and craves forgivenesse yet it appears that they were not herein led by an infallible Spirit for then they would have known J. H. was guilty only of overcredulousnesse not of impudent lying he would be loath wilfully to bely the Devil much lesse any man though his instruments VVhat follows in p. 21 22. sufficiently speaks out their deceitful way to the intimate denying of Christ come in the flesh as the Apostles preached him to them that can understand truth from deceit VVhile they justified James Naylors deceitfull and erroneous sayings alleadged by us out of his Book called Love to the lost never taking notice of or giving any answer to what was said in our Book to confute them Reader I pray minde it James Naylor in the Book aforesaid as I Jo. Horn testifie by my own sight of it treating of Redemption says few know the subject of it the seed to which the promise viz. of Redemption is made but sayes it is a certain seed or principle in men groaning for liberty from sin c. Now here G. W. and the rest say that seed of God is Christ and wherever he is known in such a low measure as a seed that suffers and is burthened in man by corruption there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin and alwayes to do his Fathers will Now mind what the Apostles say they say Christ is the Redeemer and Redemption but never that he himselfe is the thing to be redeemed as these say he is the Redeemer saith Isaiah shall come to Zion Isa 59. 20. And Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us c. saith Paul but they never say Christ himself is to be redeemed or that he is burthened in men by corruption and it hath power over him to binder him from doing his Fathers will alwayes as he desires to do And so makes him a sinner contrary to 1 John 3. 5. but on the contrary Death hath no more dominion over him and so by consequence not sin for if it had Death would it being the wages of sin Well but see yet further their corrupt mystical stuffâ— the mystery of Iniquity that is in them They say And this seed the power reaches to where it is begotten and in the power it arises in them that believe in the Light for their Redemption Reply Was there ever such confused stuffe heard of One while it is the seed which is Christ that is burthened in man by corruption that is to be redeemed and another while its the believer in the Light for the Redemption so that both Christ and the believer are to be Redeemed But who must redeem the Seed which is Christ That 's but darkly and confusedly hinted Babel like The power sure that reaches to the seed but what is that Is it Christ Then Christ redeems Christ is it the Spirit Then the Spirit redeems Christ where he is begotten So that here is Christ begotten and Christ suffering and burthened with sin to be redeemed by the Power or Spirit and all in them that believe in the light for Redemption but what is that light they believe in Sure that must be Christ too unlesse it be somthing from him lesse then Christ but how should a Believer believe in a Christ for redemption that wants it himselfe and is the subject of it The Apostles preached a raised Christ for men to believe in These men a suffering and burthened Christ that wants Redemption himselfe And is not here too Christ and corruption both in the believer are they both Natural or both Spiritual heritages think we But in them that believe in the Light it rises say they in the Power c. and this is Christs dying in men for their sins and rising in them for their justification that believe in him that 's dying and rising in them for redemption in their Language rare Mysteries of confusion confounding the Spirit of man with Christ and putting it for him The Apostles preacht Christ dead and raised for all never that he is yet dying and rising for and in some But They say The Apostle travelled again for the Galathians till Christ was formed in them who first is known as one without form or comlinesse Reply That the Apostle traviled again in birth of the Galathians till Christ was formed in them is true But even as the Galathians were not personally and carnally in Paul though he traveled again in birth of them but onely in his love and affection So neither are we so carnally and fantastically to conceive of Christs forming in them as if he was a seed or principle to be begotten and redeemed in them and suffering and burthened in them and to be brought forth into form in them personally but onely the knowledge and faith of him was to be brought forth or formed in their hearts 2. Nor is it true but very false that Christ is first known as one without form or comlinesse but rather while he is so apprehended he is not known its mens ignorance unbelief and wrong thoughts of him makes them see no beauty in him Isaiah speaking of the Jews and in their person as one of that body and prophecying of the mean appearance of Christ in the flesh signifies how he should through Ignorance and unbelief be rejected by them and they should see no form or comelinesse in him wherefore they should desire him as the verses following also shew not that any knowing him first know him so They proceed thus And so the seed of God suffers in some and in others it reigns and is known to be Prince of Peace Reply Here is their sence of Christs death and Resurrection Christs dying and rising in men and this is the word that they say is in every man before outward Preaching The word of Faith nigh in the heart and in the mouth but what need Preachers be sent then to preach this or who be the Preachers sent of God in men to declare it without whose being sent of God they could not Preach it and without whose preaching men could not hear and believe Yea in this Mysterious and Babylonish stuffe here is Christ forming suffering and rising at once Suffering in some and rising in others and so the Apostles doctrine is turned up by the roots as not grounded in Christs appearing in men Where he says Nor yet that he Christ should offer himself often as the High Priest entereth into the holy Place every year with blood of others for then must he often have suffered since