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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A50496	A brief account of the most material passages between those called Quakers and Baptists at the Barbican-meeting, London, the 9th of the 8th moneth, 1674 / published for information by W. Mead ... [et.al.] citizens there present, from the best collection they could make by writing and memory ; also a copy of the charges against Thomas Hicks ; with a letter from a sober Baptist-preacher to Jeremy Ives upon the account of that meeting.	Mead, William, 1628-1713.; Penn, William, 1644-1718.	1674 (1674)	Wing M1565; ESTC R29519	16,320	46

part Ergo. Then why may not another reason thus He that loves not Christ denys him he that keeps not his Commands loves him not and so forward to this That Non-conformity to every Command of Christ is a Denying of Christ then must the Presbyter and Independents be No Christians for denying Baptism and some Baptized Churches must be Antichristian for denying Laying on of Hands on all and others for not keeping Saturday-Sabbath But God forbid that we should thus proceed to Heat henize one another for Diversities of Apprehensions concerning the Nature Offices or Ordinances of Christ T H. has Dialogued so long till he has fill'd the Quakers Meetings in these Parts And for ought I see the more We Strive the more They Thrive It s strange we cannot observe the Counsel of our own Bible to let them alone for if they be not 〈◊〉 God they shall not stand Let us contend against all Faith that leads to● an Unholy Life which doubtless the Apostle intended when he bids us Contend for Gospel-Faith and not Doubtful Disputation One Thing more I noted which was not fair viz to set Women at the Door of the Disputation to sell a Pamphlet to exasperate the People against the Quakers verely he that did it acted too much like a Poch●r which if he can will wound the Hare before he courses her I was so troubled at it that I desired the Woman to remove or forbear shewing till the Dispute was past but she was so Zea●ous in her Business that I fear she was hired Whatever the Design was I know not but truly the Substance of the Pamphlet was very Weak for by the very same Argument he may prove all our Pedigree from the Pope as well as the Quakers but the Sheet it self smelt of the Spirit of Persecution which is the very worst Part of Popery But no more at present only this If thou hear of a Disputation again do thy Endeavour to have it out of the City three or four Miles Distance had freed you from that Rabble which I perceive will alwayes disturb and make utterly unprofitable all Meetings of that Nature From Octob. 12. 74. Thy Loving Friend and Brother W. L. Postscript FOrasmuch as the Baptists c. h●●● publickly though falsly accused a●● charged us with Denying the Christ of G 〈…〉 the Worth and Authority of the holy Scr●●tures and other things of the like Natur● we do for the stopping of the Mouth 〈◊〉 Slander and informing the Simple decl●●● in the Presence of God That we do high Honour and truly Own the Lord Jes●● Christ as he is born witness of in the ho●● Scriptures both as he is God and as he too● upon him Flesh and fulfilled the Law in th● very Body prepared for him above Sixte●● Hundred Years ago in which he resist●● and overcame the Divel and became a compleat Sacrifice for Mankind in general And further In Simplicity and Plainne●● of Heart we own him in all his Offices reco●ded in the holy Scriptures And concernin● the Scriptures we Esteem them and Ow● them as the Words of God spoken by the Spirit of God moving in Holy Men Prophets Christ his Apostles and Ministers and that they are profitable for Doctrine Reproof Correction c. yea we truly value them above all the Books extant in the VVorld and do hold it our Duty to live that Holy Life they call for and exhort to and they were written for our learning that we through Patience and Comfort of the Scriptures might have Hope And we wish with all our Hearts That whole Christendom who Honour them with their Lips might come to live that Holy Life which they exhort to For it is not the bare Profession of God Christ and Scriptures and other Heavenly Things in VVords that availes any thing but a living a Godly Christ-like Life is the Sum of Christian Religion W. S. THE END * And there is some Cause for Suspicion for a profest Socinian confederated with them and sat very near the Pulpit

A Brief ACCOUNT Of the MOST Material Passages Between those called QUAKERS And BAPTISTS At the Barbican-Meeting London the 9th of the 8th Moneth 1674. Published for Information by W. Mead J. Osgood W. Shewen E. Man S. Newton J. Claypool W. Welch Citizens there present from the best Collection they could make by Writing and Memory Also a Copy of the Charges against Thomas Hicks With a Letter from a sober Baptist-Preacher to Jeremy Ives upon the Account of that Meeting The Names of the Persons chiefly concerned being On the one side George Whitehead George Keith William Penn Stephen Crisp On the other William Kiffin Thomas Hicks Thomas Plant Jeremiah Ives Robert Forguson a Presb. A Brief Account Of the most Material Things which passed at the last Barhican-Meeting being the 9th of this Instant between the People called Quakers and Anabaptists ALthough we could rather have chosen to suspend any Publication of that dayes Procedure until we should have received a more compleat Account of the whole Matter depending yet since we find three false imperfect Relations abroad our Care to prevent the Peoples Mis-information hath prevailed with us to publish this Narrative OUr Friends being conducted by one T. Plant a Baptist-Preacher to the Place by them designed for us which we must needs say did greatly fr●strate our Expectation founded upon an accepted Article of Equal Place there being scarce Breathing-room allotted in all that great Assembly for much above Twenty of us And there after some Difficulty setled W. K. stood up in the Pulpit on the contrary side by way of Introduction to the Matter told the Auditory That the Occasion of the Meeting was to Answer the Call of the Quakers upon them for Justice against T. H. his Proceedings in his late Dialogues and desired that their Charge exhibited against T. H. might be publickly read for the Information of the People Whereunto G. W. replyed That there had been a great Report of his and W. P's knowing the Appointment of the former Barbican-Meeting and designedly declining it as being Fearful or Unable to make good their Charges against T. H. which was an absolute Wro●g done them they being ignorant of any such Meeting wherein they were concerned and that they were now come to make good what they had exhibited against T. H. W. K. If you were so refl●cted on it came from non● of Vs that we know of W. P. Where is that Vs limited W. K. To those concerned in that Meeting W. P. If T. H. had been but as careful in not extending the Fault of any one call'd a Quaker against the whole People as W. K. is in restraining the Word Vs he had behaved himself more honestly then he has done But W. K. if those called Anabaptists belong to any part of that Vs we can prove several of them guilty in that Particular W. K. If ye will produce them we shall endeavour to do you Justice W. P. That is fairly said W. K. We think it convenient that the Charge you sent us be read W. P. It will not be so proper that the Paper we sent to you be read being but a meer Index of the Matter charged and therefore not readily to be apprehended by the Auditory but we have prepared another Paper containing the same Matter at large as in the Pages referred to in the former which Liberty we expresly provided for in the first Article by you accepted as will appear by our Letter which we desire may be read W. K. T. P. Then let our Letter be also read W. P. That 's but Reasonable And here both Letters were read which are omitted for Brevity sake that done our Charge at length was produced and read up to the Auditory W. K. I desire that T. H. may have Liberty to make his general Defence without Interruption to the Charge W. P. We are contented T. H. As to the first Particular it contains two Parts The first the Manner of Writing the second the Matter First As to the Manner that is by way of Dialogue which hath not only been used by Ancient and Modern Christian -Writers but also by some of the Quakers themselves witness W. Smith's Book called A Primmer betwixt a Father and a Child 2. The Matter which relates to my Opposing the Christian to the Quaker I have Five Reasons to offer why I did so First They deny the Christ of God The rest are omitted for brevity ●ake and because they came not under any Consideration By Quakers I mean such as G. F. E. B. G. W. W. P. G. K. S. C. c. 1. They deny the Christ of God and this I prove out the Quakers own Writings E. B. denies that Christ was ever visible to Men of thy Generation meaning the Wicked But the Christ of God was seen by wicked Men c. 2. From G. W 's Appendix to Reas against Rail Where he saith That Jesus Christ a distinct Person without us is no Scripture-Language W. P. Friendly Auditors T. H. endeavours to justifie the Manner and Matter of his Writing against us To the first and what he saith in Defence of it I must tell him that he mistakes the Case for Will Smith's Book was written Catechistically in a familiar Way to the Capacity of a Child but T. H 's Controversially wherein he undertakes both to represent our Principles and Way of defending them a●firming that he had given nothing under the Name of a Quaker but what was the Language and Practice of a real Quaker And I shall prove that Discourse fictitious by several Instances having never been as we have Cause to believe the Sayings or Practices of a real Quaker which are as follow Anab. May I not conclude that the Reason why you so freely rail against and reproach your Opposers is only to secure your Credit with your Proselytes Quak. I cannot deny but that there may be something of that in it Dial. 1. p. 72. A. Doth the Darkness obey this Light or doth the Light obey it self Q. It obeyeth it self Dial. 1. p. 66. A. But did Christ-without redeem Christ within Q. VVe say it is the Seed to which the Promise of Redemption is and which ONLY wants Redemption Dial. 1. p. 69. A. Is not this Seed within God Q. Yea Ibid. A. But was not Christ without a meer Creature Q. Yea Ibid. A. You said before Christ is but one and now ye speak as if there were two the one God and the other a Creature How shall I understand thee Q. Indeed thou canst no●●nderstand Dial. 1. p. 69. A. Is it not incredible th●● a Creature should redeem God Q. Indeed thou canst not believe thy Mind being in the Darkness Enmity p. 70 A. But canst thou give a rational Account hereof Q. Why demandest thou a rational Account I deny thy Reason we witness THIS Redemption p. 70. A. Dost thou not give Ground to suspect ●ecei● Q. Nay there is that in thee that would

witness to me it thou wouldst heed it Ibid. A. I confess there is that in me that doth believe thou art full of Pride Heresie and Hypocrisie Is it this thou meanest bears witness to thee Q. I see thou art a Wicked Creature and hast NOTHING of God in thee p. 70. Again A. Since you own not the Scriptures as A Rule of what Vse are they Q. They are a Declaration of the Saints Conditions p. 79 80. A. Are they of no further Vse Q. Not to us p. 68. Again A. The Apostle saith Let Woman be silent in the Church why suffer ye Women to declare Q. The Women to be silenced is the Flesh p. 71. A. Hath the Flesh a Husband Q. Yea Ibid. A. Who is it Q. The Devil p. 71. A. The Text saith Let a Woman ask h● Husband at home must the Flesh be instr●cted by the Devil in the Things of Religion Q. Alas for thee I comprehend thee an● see thy Subtilty p. 71. Again A. Are you then as perfectly happ● as ever you expect to be Q. We witness Perfection p. 72. A. What Proof is this to another Man Q. We say we witness it is not th● Proof sufficient A. But what if I believe otherwise Q. We shall not spare to stigmatize th● Person that questions the Truth of our Sayings p. 72. A. Will this convince me or any other● your Perfection Q. Though it do not yet thereby w● shall render you so odious to our Fiends th● they will believe nothing that is spoken b● you against us p. 72. A. Doth not this signifie a very dishone● and malicious Mind Q. We care not what you think prov●ded our Friends think not so p. 73. We will give it out that we have both an●swered and confuted our Adversaries an● ●r Friends will believe us which is enough us Ibid. in fin Again A. But since it is not the Good of 〈◊〉 Promises that shall be fulfilled to Persons ●ter Death it must be some other Thing ●ay what is it Q. We say there is a Seed shall be sa●d Dial. 1. p. 74. Dial. 3. p. 37. A. But if this Seed only be God and Christ ●hat is that to you Q. Is not this sufficient p. 74 75. Again A. What is the Soul Q. It is a Part of God and of God's ●●eing p. 65. A. Is not this as much as to say the Soul● God Q. Yea Ibid. A. If the Light be God and the Soul be ●d how say you God sets up a Light in the ●ul Doth he set up a Light in himself Q. We are dead to Distinctions p. 65 66. Again A. But dost thou indeed believe ●at those Quotations set down in the former ●ialogues are Forgeries Q. I do so Dial. 3. p. 2. These are some of his Fictions T. H. I can prove it all I cannot bate them a Word some I will prove by their own Words and others by Consequence W. P. He hath shut out himself from all Consequences by affirming that they are no other then what the Quakers give both in VVords and Practice and if the Quakers Expressions then not T. H 's Consequences but if Consequences of T. H 's Drawing then not the Quakers Expressions And though we might allow W. Kiffin or any sobe● Man to draw Natural and Genuine Consequences upon us from our Principles yet we cannot give that Liberty to T. H. he having already excluded himself Note Reader that upon the great Crack that was in the Meeting which caus'd a Consternation at that Time upon many of the People they descended the Pulpit to a more secure Place at what Time J. I. thus spake to W. P. J. I. Mr. Penn Inasmuch as you see the House hath shown it self so infirm and that the People are so tumultuous and that it may be dangerous not to break up the Meeting we desire that you would consent to the Dissolving of it W. P. Ah Jeremy had T. Hicks Heen but half so careful of not giving Occasion for all this Bussle there had been no Need of thy Desire or our Grant But the People begin to be setled crying out there is no Danger and there are Places secure enough for you pointing to another Gallery and we are so deeply concerned in Defence of our Religion that we are not willing to give away this Opportunity Therefore Friends and People I do beseech you to be still doubtless you are come to hear and you are the present Obstructors of your own Hearing We are denyed to be Christians and are rendred unfit to live amongst Men to some of you we may be Relations to others Neighbours or Acquaintance howbeit we are your Country Men Give us a Hearing for our Religion Our Souls Bodies and all what is near and dear to us is concerned in this Matter Therefore once more I intreat your Silence that we may proceed R. F. a Scottish Priest undertook to speak on the behalf of T. H. excusing him for writing Dialogue-wise G. K. It is one Thing to write Dialogue-wise and another Thing to write a Dialogue for many in England did take it for a real Dialogue Of which several present bore Witness R. F. George You know that Minutius Felix and several Ancients Learned Men have writ Dialogue-wise as Lucian and Cicero W. P. Dost thou mention Lucian and Cicero Heathens R. F. Cicero was a wiser Man Mr. Penn then you or I he proved one God admirably well W. P. It seems then our Light is good for somewhat seeing a Heathen by that Light could so admirably prove a God Besides their Manner of Dialogueing was not like T. H's who so unfairly and unjustly misrepresented our Expressions Principles and Religion R. F. The Matter we charge upon you is that the Quaker is no Christian W. P. We what We who art thou R. F. I am a Christian W. P. So say we that is but a begging of the Question Here some answered He is a Presbyterian Minister VV. P. A Presbyterian what a confederacy Then Jeremy Ives call'd an Arminian-Baptist stood up J. I. You say right Mr. Penn I must acknowledge the writing Controversie in Dialogue is a very unfair Way unless the greatest Care be taken in expressing the Principles of the Adversary in his own words and according to the best sense they will carry But let us come to the Matter of his Dialogues wherein he opposeth the Christian to the Quaker Well J. I. it seems thou dost grant the first W. P. I am willing to come to the Matter if you would but hear and not thus frequently interrupt me one after another The second thing we object as he tells us is the Opposing the Christian to the Quaker His first Reason for so doing is Our Denying the Christ of God His Proof as he calls it was out of my Book call'd Reas ag Rail pag. 54. The words are these Let it suffice to the sober Reader that we do believe That Christ who is God over all blessed forever did