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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88947	A modest & brotherly ansvver to Mr. Charles Herle his book, against the independency of churches. Wherein his foure arguments for the government of synods over particular congregations, are friendly examined, and clearly answered. Together, with Christian and loving animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said booke. All tending to declare the true use of synods, and the power of congregationall churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne officers, and censuring their offendors. By Richard Mather teacher of the Church at Dorchester; and William Tompson pastor of the Church at Braintree in New-England. Sent from thence after the assembly of elders were dissolved that last met at Cambridg to debate matters about church-government.	Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.; Tompson, William, d. 1666.	1644 (1644)	Wing M1274; Thomason E37_19; ESTC R16954	50,642	62

question therefore we will not insist upon them but onely say this much that as they are both alledged by Doctor Downam and them of the Hierarchy that plead for Diocesan Churches against Congregational so they are both sufficiently answered by Mr. Bain in his Diocesan triall p. 19 20. and by the refuter of D. Downams Sermon at Lambeth p. 65. Next the Church at Corinth every where stiled a Church not Churches Answ. This we grant But why might it not be one Congregation as well as one Church The onely reason you bring to the contrary is because They had so many Instructers 1 Cor. 4. 15. and Builders 1 Cor. 3. 12. So many Prophets say you and Teachers speakers with Tongues could not questionlesse have their ordinary locall meetings but by way of distribution into severall congregations Answ. This arguing about the Church of Corinth doth not very well agree with that which went before p. 12. where you seemed to grant that though no other place in Scripture yet that place 1 Corinth 14. doth give the name of Church to one single Congregation whereas now you give Corinth also as one instance where many congregations are called a Church It is strange to us how Corinth should be an example of both these viz. of the name of Church given to one single congregation as you doe acknowledge pag. 12. and of many congregations called by the name of one Church as now you would have it But the place 1. Cor. 14. 23. that speakes of the whole Church commiug together into one place doth unavoidably prove for ought we can discern that Corinth had their meetings and not by way of distribution into severall Congregations but altogether in one congregation and doth also answer your reason drawn from the variety of Teachers and Prophets in that Church For it is plain from that very Chapter that the Church of Corinth had many Prophets Let the Prophets speake two or three and let the rest judge vers. 39. and many that spake with Tongues who must speake by course two or three and one interpret verse 27. yea every one generally had a Psalme or a Doctrine or a Revelation or an Interpretation verse 26. as indeed they came behind in no gift 1 Cor. 1. yet for all their variety of gifts and gifted men Prophets Interpreters speakers with Tongues and the like both they and the whole Church also even women and all used to come together into one place But it is with much instance urged generally by all the Separatists that those among whom the Corinthian fornicatou● was they were all to be gathered together and all to deliver him to Satan therefore the power of the keye is alike in all the members and not in the Elders alone pag. 14. Answ. This and all that follows for two whole pages may be something pertaining to the second of your three exceptions forementioned but nothing concerns the Question now in hand For whether the Church of Corinth that must excommunicate the incestuous man were the Elders alone as you hold or all the people also as others This is nothing to the present point of the sence of the word Church which is whether is be taken in Scripture for many Congregations or one onely and therefore we marvell why you would here bring it in Neither indeed is it any thing to the maine Question of the Dependencie of Congregations upon the government of Synods For if all were granted that here is argued for viz. that the Church that must excommunicate the delinquent Corinthian was not the common people but the Elders alone yet the authoritie of Synods is not a whit holpen thereby unlesse it could be proved that the Church of Corinth had no Elders of their own which we are perswaded you will not affirm because you grant pag. 13. that they had many Instructors many builders many leaders many Prophets and Teachers Wherefore this Dispute being besides the Question we will not spend time in answering of it because we would hasten to go forward with the rest that pertains to the Question as you have stated it Your last instance of many Congregations called by the name of Church is Ephesus where you argue There must needs be many congregations because there was a great doore and effectuall opened unto Paul so mightily there grew the Word of God and prevailed the greatnesse of the price of the conjuring books burnt publickly and God himself testifies he had many people in that Citie Answ. When the Lord saith to Paul I have much people in the City it is a plain mistake to understand this of Ephesus for it was spoken of Corinth and not of Ephesus Act. 18. 10. But if it had been spoken of Ephesus as we deny not but that there were many Christians there how doth this prove the point that they were not one Congregation but many We do not think they were more in number then in Corinth and Jerusalem where the Christians as we have shewed did usually meet in one place and therefore at Ephesus they might do the like though there were a great number of Christians there As for that which you say that as this Church could not possibly ordinarily in all its members meet but distributively so that it did meet collectively in its Presbytery and Eldership that which ordained Timothy there by the Apostles own testimony appears in the 17. 28. and 26. verses of the 20. Chapter beyond all exception We answer thereto it is not beyond all exception that at Ephesus was one Church consisting of many Congregations which is our Question It may be granted that the Elders of that Church upon Paul's sending for them did meet at Miletum apart from the people as was noted before out of Act. 21. Of the Elders of Jerusalem but this is nothing to our Question whether a Church be many Congregations or one onely As much might he said of the other of the seven Churches of Asia with that at Antioch Philippi and Thessalonica Ans. And if as much were said of these as of the other as much might also be answered And though Philippi and Thessalonica had many Bishops Deacons Overseers yet all this is too short to prove they were many Congregations for what should hinder but one Congregation may have many Officers That which followeth in this sixteenth page and so forward to the middle of pag. 19. is spent in answering the other two exceptions which you formerly proposed pag. 11. Concerning which we need not to spend much time the one of them as we said before is altogether besides the purpose and on which side soever the truth doth lie in that matter the present Question is nothing at all cleared thereby and for the other we leave it to them that make it to undertake the defence of it For us it is sufficient to have shewed that all that you have said from Matth. 18. Tell the Church doth not prove that Congregations must depend upon

A Modest Brotherly ANSVVER To Mr. CHARLES HERLE his Book against the Independency of Churches Wherein his foure Arguments for the Government of Synods over particular Congregations are friendly Examined and clearly Answered Together with Christian and Loving Animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said BOOKE All tending to declare the true use of Synods and the power of Congregationall Churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne Officers and censuring their Offendors By RICHARD MATHER Teacher of the Church at Dorchester And WILLIAM TOMPSON Pastor of the Church at Braintree in NEW-ENGLAND Sent from thence after the Assembly of Elders were dissolved that last met at Cambridg to debate matters about Church-government London Printed for Henry Overton in Popes-head alley 1644. Reverend and Deare Sir THe right forme of Church Government being more searched into of late time then formerly and your self amongst others having written for the governing power or jurisdiction of Synods over particular Churches We therfore knowing our selves bound as well as others to try all things and hold fast that which is good have considered as the Lord hath holpen us those Arguments of yours which are contained in your Book against the Indepency of Churches and not being satisfied therewith your Book being published in Print we have therfore thought meet in like fort to publish our Answer and in that way to shew unto your self and others what yet hinders us that we do not think your Arguments to be convincing In which attempt we have bin the more encouraged by your profession which we dare not but believe that in what you have written you have aimed at verity and not at victory wherof we are the rather perswaded because we do perceive your whole discourse to be carried along without passion and bitternesse in a spirit of meeknesse and love which also we are willing to acknowledge before all men to your just commendation and the glory of that grace of God that gives you such an heart And it is our hope that sith you professe to aim at the truth and do dispute with such a spirit as if you meant so indeed that therfore it will not be unacceptable to you if any weaknesse be discovered in those grounds wheron you build this perswasion that in the present Question the truth doth stand on your side And as your Book doth breathe forth a spirit of meeknesse ingenuity and love so we hope you will find that we have aimed at the like in our Answer which as we have written and now published it for the truths sake and for the help of those that cannot attaine unto larger and more learned Treatises about this Subject So in speciall manner in love to your self and our deare Country men friends as in other places of Lancashire so in your Parish of Winwick wherin one of us was born and the other was for sundry Years together an unworthy Minister of the Gospel of Christ Accept therfore we doe beseech you this brotherly labour of ours which here we send you divided into these few Chapters We are also willing upon this occasion to testifie our thankfullnes for that loving respect which we found from you when we lived together in that Country when you were pleased to own us in our sad times The Father of mercies be with you and with all those that love the truth in sincerity and blesse that Reverend and Grave Assembly wherof we hear your self are a Member that by their wise and holy indeavours the truth may be cleared and all corruptions removed in the Doctrine Worship and Church Government in ENGLAND to his praise and glory and the comfort of all those who unfainedly desire that the Crowne of Christ Iesus and the Scepter of the Son of God may be gloriously advanced over all which is the prayer of Your Loving Brethren RICHARD MATHER and WILLIAM TOMPSON A Modest and Brotherly ANSWER TO Mr. CHARLES HERLE His BOOKE against the Independency of CHURCHES CHAPT. I. Containing Observations upon sundry passages in your stating the Question THE Independants say you deny to a Synod as the name of a Church so all manner of power of jurisdiction either to determine or any way oblige such as they shall any way represent pag. 2. Unlesse it could be proved that in Scripture the name of a Church is given to a Synod we are not to blamed though we give not a Synod that name sith we are commanded to hold fast the paterne of the wholsome words of Scripture as sufficient 2 Tim. 1. 13. though for this we will not contend But for power to determine viz. dogmatically or by way of doctrine this we deny not to a Synod For that Synod Act. 15. did put forth such power and we acknowledge other Synods may doe the like upon like occasion and their determinations being according to the Scripture ought to bind all those whom they represent They acknowledge that neighbour Churches may meet and consult and advise each other and withdraw all fellowship from any one that shall grow pertinaciously scandalous pag. 2. And you may adde further that by their messengers being met in a Synod they may determine by the Scriptures any matter of controversie that may arise But for matter of jurisdiction or power of the Keyes in excommunication ordination or whatever Censure they hold it is entirely and onely in every single Congregation though but of 2 or 3 beleevers p. 2. If any hold so small a number as 2 or 3 to be a Church so compleat as to have power of excommunication ordination and whatever Censure they may if they see cause declare their grounds for so holding But for our parts for ought we yet see a Church that hath such power as is here spoken of had need to be a greater number then two or three even so many as shall be necessary and requisite for the carrying on of Church-worke in admonition and reprehension of one another as there shall be cause and therfore they had need to be seaven or more For a Brother that sinneth must so be dealt withall for his recovery that if he remain impenitent the proceeding against him is still to goe on by degrees till at last the matter be brought unto the Church Mat. 18. 15 16 17. But in all the degrees of proceeding against him the persons before whom he is called are in every latter step and degree more in number then they were in the former and so the Church being the last is the greatest number of all And yet there are three at the least that must be acquainted with the matter before it must be brought unto the Church viz. the brother offending the brother offended and one witnesse at the least so that the Church consisting of those three or foure that deal in the matter before it come into the Church and of another number greater then they and distinct from them to whom the matter is brought

not clear that by Church is meant onely the Elders of the Church nor that all the steps of such graduall proceeding as our Saviour doth prescribe were formerly commanded to the Jews And your self professing in your Epistle to the Gentlemen prefixed before your book that you like D. Moulins resolution rather to bring one Argument then ten Authors if accordingly you had confirmed this minor proposition with some further proof then onely the names of Authors it could have given better satisfaction But what ever become of the minor the consequence of the major may justly be denied For though it were granted that our Saviours words Tell the Church were spoken with reference to the Jewish Church-government in this sence that this graduall proceeding in all the steps of it was formerly commanded to the Jews yet this is nothing to prove the necessitie of the dependance of Congregations upon the government of Synods which is our question because there may be such graduall proceedings to the fulfilling of our Saviours rule without any use of a Synod at all If it were not so Synods had need to be more frequent then they are or ever were or are ever like to be for this rule of our Saviour is of very frequent use And though it were granted also that by Church our Saviour meant the Elders which is the other sense of your words of reference to the Jewish Church-government yet neither would this prove the dependence of Congregations upon the Government of Synods because there may be and ought to be Elders and an Eldership or Presbyterie in every particular Congregation and by telling those Elders that rule may be observed if our Saviours words were taken in that sence And indeed it seems your self do so understand them as appears in pag. 17. of your book and likewise in this place now in hand because one of those Authors whom you alledge for the meaning of our Saviours words is Mr. Johnson who in his latter times did so understand them of whom you say Even Mr. Johnson himself though a Pastor of Separatists in a peculiar Treatise reduceth himself from his former error in the contrary opinion to this judgement too Wherby it seems that for the meaning of this text you concurre in opinion or judgement with Mr. Johnson And if so then though you may by Church understand the Elders as he did yet then you must also acknowledge the Independency of particular Congregations and the Pastors thereof for it is certain and plain that Mr. Johnson was of that opinion and judgement too notwithstanding that his Exposition of Matth. 18. and did never reduce himself to this opinion that Congregations must be dependent upon the Government of Synods which is your plea For which purpose you may consider what is to be seen in his Christian Plea which was one of the last books that ever he wrote Now in pag. 250 251. of that book are these words viz. Seeing now every particular constituted Church hath right and power within it self to celebrate the Lords Supper which is answerable to the Passeover that was kept at Jerusalem this sheweth that now every particular Church is to be esteemed as Jerusalem and so to stand immediately under Jesus Christ the Arch-Pastor of his sheep and high Priest of our profession And again All particular Churches with their Pastors do stand immediately under Jesus Christ the Arch-Pastor without any strange Ecclesiasticall power and authoritie interposed between whether it be of the Prelates or of their unlawfull usurping Synods or any such like And in the words following speaking how all Churches and the Ministers of them should be readie and willing to help and advise one another he addeth thus viz. And so to this end and in this manner may be had a lawfull and profitable use of Synods Classes c. for mutuall help and advise so as alwaies it be provided that they do not challenge or usurp any unlawfull Jurisdiction or power over the particular Churches or their Pastors and Governours By which words it plainly appeareth that though Mr. Johnson by Church in Matth. 18. did understand the Elders yet he never held that particular Churches and the Elders thereof should depend upon the government of Synods but be immediately under the government and authoritie of Jesus Christ and depend no other way upon Synods but onely for their advise and counsell and therefore his Exposition of Matth. 18. will stand you in no stead to prove the dependance of particular Churches upon Synods Wherefore to wind up our Answer to this Argument Though it were granted that when our Saviour saith Tell the Church he means tell the Elders and though it were granted also that enjoying such a graduall proceeding he prescribeth no new rule but the same that had been given before unto the Jews yet neither of these do prove that Congregations must depend upon the Authoritie of Synods and the reason is because both these may be performed in a particular Congregation for therein a man may proceed by such steps and degrees as our Saviour enjoyneth and may also tell his matter to the Elders of that particular Church And so the consequence of your major proposition failing the whole Argument must fail also though the minor were never so strongly proved and how much more when the minor is left so weak neither of these particulars being sufficiently cleared and made good by you that by Church is meant the Elders nor that all that our Saviour in that place prescribeth was before commanded to the Jews But inasmuch as your words are that this of Matth. 18. is spoken by our Saviour Christ in reference to the Jewish Church-government before urged therefore we may give a further Answer to this Argument out of that which before hath been answered when the Argument from the Jewish Church-government was urged For though it were granted that Christ speaks in reference to that government yea though it were granted which we suppose none will affirm that all that was used among the Jews is here prescribed by Christ yet all this were too short to prove that our Congregations must depend upon the government of Synods unlesse it could be proved that the Jewish Congregations did so depend which we have formerly shewed to be otherwise the great Synedrion at Jerusalem upon which their lesser Congregations did depend if they were dependent at all being not any Synod but an Assembly of another nature But you will improve this Text further and therefore after some speech of an Indefinite proposition in Logick and an Indefinite command in Divinitie and of five graduall Iffs in our Saviours words If he shall offend c. you come thus to argue viz. The remedie of complaint or Appeal must be as large as the malady offence otherwise Christs salve were not equall to the sore but offences may arise as well between divers Congregations in the same Church as between divers members in the same Congregation