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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00639	A defence of the reasons of the counter-poyson, for maintenance of the eldership against an aunsvvere made to them by Doctor Copequot, in a publike sermon at Pawles Crosse, vpon Psal. 84. 1584. VVherein also according to his demaunde is proued syllogisticallie for the learned, and plainlie for all men, the perpetuitie of the elders office in the church.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1586 (1586)	STC 10772; ESTC S112582	18,117	32

M. Gualter sayth That there are certaine which would erect a presbiterie they must proue they haue the same giftes as the presbiterie had then Prophesie working of miracles and other giftes written in 1. Cor. Cha. 12. They that do these things are thought to trouble the order of the Church of God and to bring in contention the ciuill Magistrates went to get vnto them selues ecclesiasticall authoritie but this turned into popishe tyrannie There was a little booke printed in the yeare of our Lord 1558. that is called The admonition of Englande and Scotlande you shall finde as much there And if it do● please you agayne to looke into the conclusions of that booke ye shall finde that there is one whiche doeth conclude heauier against Englande then doeth Doctor Sanders The defence THE vvhole vvhich he speaketh of Discipline consisteth in two pointes The one against vs the other A defence of him selfe Where the one is not so false and friuoulouse but the other is as vayne and feeble To begin lett vs see howe he maketh vs charge the Church then his Defence he maketh for it Hee layeth to our charge that we make the Church of Englande but a church secundum quid after a sorte Where that he slaundereth vs in saying we slaūder the Church we proue it by double witnes on our part our wordes and deedes on his part by his owne allegation in this place For our wordes our preaching and writings haue alwayes witnes●ed that we holde the Churche for a true Churche of Christ from which no member may separate him selfe although he must disallowe the wantes in her We haue alwayes when subscription was vrged bin readie to subscribe to the Article of her Maiesties authoritie and to the substance of doctrine in as large a manner as the Statut in that behalfe required This wee haue declared by protestation and by writing not onely to them but to the most honourable Senate of her most Excellent Maiesties priuie Counsell Wee haue by writinge defended the cause of the Church and our Prince as much as they that we say no more From our actions howe many Demonstrations might bee broght to approue our right judgement reuerend account and sincere affection toward the Church of Englande Haue we not yea when we were vniustly against all law of God and man depriued for not subscribing adioyned our selues to the Church in all the actions of the ministerie of the word preached of prayer of the Sacraments Haue we not by perswasions continued many in the bosome of the church yea whē through weaknes because of many abuses they would haue departed Haue wee sought redresse by any other meanes thē by hūble supplication towards our superiours according to dutie Thus our actions approue vs to the church His accusation hath bin heard let vs heare also his witnes which as we said ouerthroweth his accusation He maketh vs to say that as a citie can not stande without walles no more cā a church without Discipline We replie there was neuer any that denied a citie with out a wall to be a citie an orched without defēce to be an orchard a cornefielde without a hedge to be a cornefielde Neither will any manne forsake his citie cast away his corne destroy his vineyard for lacke of a defence Neuerthelesse the wante of these things must be cōplained of in time Behold how his own witnes speaketh for vs. We haue seen how he faineth vs to charge the church mark how wel he defendeth her What maner of defence doth he make not with the Word but with 2. sentences of M. Gualter Is M. Gualter a more holy learned ancient Father then Peter Martir Viret Caluin Beza Bullinger and such other Who by preaching writing other good meanes haue mainteined this cause We acknoledge Gualter to be a shining starr but we make not his glorie like vnto the glorie of God in all those men Howbeit let the strength of his light shine out and it shall not hurt vs but melt away his assertion as waxe and the Bishops authoritie which he maintaineth as pitche For want of Discipline saith he in the first place no man ought to departe from the Churche we confesse it allowe it subscribe vnto it What is the secōd voyce I thinke that the same forme can not be appointed in all nations Lo it is a thought no demonstration Wil you allow his iudgement in this M. Copquot Dare you doo it Shall sweete and sower come out of your mouth in one sermon Haue you not twise or thrise in this sermon made Discipline a note of the Churche in these wordes The notes of the Church are three the first The word of God truly preached The second The right administraetion of the Sacraments The last True Discipline And hauing alleadged Mat. 28.18.19 you say By whiche place of Scripture we may easilie perceiue that these are the true tokens of the Church where the worde is preached The Sacramentes truly ministred and where is true Discipline Now if Discipline be one note of the Church shal it not be the same in all places as touching the substance as is the doctrine Shall there not be a certaine forme of it as S. Paule saith there is of the doctrine your first marke Againe how wil these wordes of Matthew Goe teache all nations baptisinge them that beleeue and teache them to obserue all thinges which I haue commaunded you proue your Diuisions Is it not because all men must not onely be taught and beleeue the doctrine as the first and principal marke nor onely be baptized and vse the Sacraments which is the secōd but also must be taught to obserue all constitutions for elections abdications for the essentiall difference of offices for the censures and spirituall corrections which you call true Discipline the thirde marke Howe then is not this commanded Discipline certaine in nature and forme And is it not cōmanded to al that beleeue and are baptized What thē shall M. Gualters sentence stand yours fall After you haue seene this disagrement of M. Gualter with him selfe beholde how he disagreeth in this sentence with the Bishops and orders which you maintaine In his cōmentarie on the 1. Cor. 5 where he hath the verie wordes you alledge hee saieth That the Ministers haue no Discipline further then rebukes by worde That there must be no Ecclesiasticall suspension from the Sacraments No excommunication Finallie there must be no Discipline but ciuill at the appointement af the Magistrate and that by ciuill persons Will the Bishops allowe this that by the worde of God Ecclesiasticall Gouuernours haue no authoritie to suspende to excommunicate Will our lawes will the Articles of the Conuocation house will the booke of ordayning Bishops Priestes and Deacons stand with this Thus Gualters breathe poysoneth and choketh the Bishops sweete and pure Gouuernement Thus farre his accusation His answere to our reasons followe Where firste I pray the Reader to consider

well the question betweene vs which is one these worde of S. Paule in 1. Tim. 5. The Elders which rule well are worthy of double honour especially those which labour in the worde and doctrine We say this place mētioneth two sortes of Elders one which doo onely gouerne in the Church the other which also are occupied in the ministerie of the worde He denieth this and sayeth it mentioneth onely two sortes of Preachers some whiche preach well and some which take greater paynes in it then others Thou seest the question betweene vs good Reader wherein thou mayest thanke Maister Copquot as we also doo for making his meaning playne without any feare For it argueth a good courage openly at Pawles crosse to iustle out the Arch-bishops interpretation to bring in his owne The Arch-bishop vnderstandeth it of two sortes of Ministers some that are Ministers but preache not some that preache and labour in the worde and doctrine Well did Maister Copquot consider that it was farre from the true meaning of the Apostle which neuer would account an ignorant Minister vnsauerie salte a blinde watchman a dumme Dogge and an Idoll shepheard worthie either of double honor or the name to rule well Well also did he consider that it was a small piece of gouernement to reade a fewe prayers or part of the Liturgie and to doo all as he is prescribed Vppon good reason he left that corrupt meaning I would he had as easilie receyued the full and proper meaning of the holy Ghost But let vs come to the matter in hande Hee thinketh him selfe iniuried that he is charged to haue learned his aunswere of the Iesuites which he had he saith from holy Fathers and Prophetes If you bringe the interpretatiō of the Prophetes for you we will put our hande to our mouth and giue glorie to the trueth and to you although we must still acknowledge that we redde it in the Iesuites papers before we heard it out of your mouth But how is it that we heare a sounde of Prophetes but finde the sentences onely of Fathers Lette vs examine them notwithstanding to see if they discharge you from being the Iesuites scholler The sentences which are alledged make nothing for you some are expreslie against you The first 2. are made to say Such Priestes are worthie of double honour as do rule well admit they say it but do they saye this place maketh two sortes of Preachers whiche is the question Haue you no other Fathers then these firste Yes Augustin Ciprian Ambrose Chrisostome these are worth the hearing let them speak S. Augustin saith They onely non bene praesunt whiche doo not labour in their calling Ergo the place of the Apostle is to be vnderstoode of Preachers only not of gouerning Elders I am not worthy for learning to beare Doctor Copquot bookes yet I know the man whom he now seeketh to confute would laugh at suche a reason For all that I will vouchsafe an answere Augustine in giuing no more for the interpretation of these wordes whiche rule well then that they do it which labour in their calling doth applie it no more to Preachers onely then to Deacons Kinges yea Shipmaisters who all must labour well in their calling Nay by vsing so generall wordes in interpreting the first part of the verse he manifestlie declareth that hee vnderstood it was general to both sorte of Elders both teaching and vnteaching and so he might applie it to which soeuer sorte of Elders he had occasion to speake of The same answere may serue the words which he sayeth are Ciprians who yet can not bee founde either so much as to alledge that place much lesse fully to interprete it And if he thinke that Ciprian was such an enemie of vnteaching Elders let him reade againe his Epistles and he shall finde almost in euery Epistle that hee is a great friende vnto them He will say peraduenture those Elders were preachers we answer it is not credible that in one Church there could be so many as hee there nameth and paynteth out especially in the time of persecution But to put the matter out of doubt his owne wordes are alledged where hee saith He with the Elders Teachers and Readers gaue the degree of a Teacher vnto Optatus Or if you will haue the reading as it is newly cast in a popish moulde Quando cum praesbiteris doctioribus lectores diligenter probauerimus Optatum inter lectores doctorem audientium constituimus when with the lharneder Elders wee diligentlie tried the Readers wee made Optatus amongst the Readers a Teacher of those who heare it shall make yet more against you because here Elders are not onely distinguished from Ciprian the Bishop of that particular church● as from the Pastor frō the teachers and readers but also from some other vnlearned Elders who although for gouernement they were apt men yet were not so learned as eyther they were fitt to reade in the Church or iudge of those who could reade and pronounce wordes and sentences according to their iust measure and proper grace We haue sifted Ciprian let vs looke in to Chrisostome He is made to say A good Pastor layeth dewns his life for his sheepe He doeth so saye but the name of shepheard both in holy and prophane write is cōmon to gouernours both ciuill and ecclesiasticall as well as to Teachers Further if one do wel marke the course of Chrisostomes cōmentarie in that place he shall finde him against you because when he speaketh of the firste part of the verse he vrgeth no necessitie of doctrine but comming to the second he sheweth that those kinde of Elders which are occupied in the worde are most to be honored because they susteine great labour in teaching His wordes are Quid est autem bene praeesse audi dicentem Christum Pastor bonus animam ponit pro ouibus Bene igitur praeesse hoc est nulli parcere illorum regiminis gratia maximè inquit qui laborant in verbo doctrina vbi modo sunt qui dicunt sermone doctrsna non opus est hos omnium maximè iubet honorari causamque addit dicens Nullum enim laborē sustinent that is What is it to rule well heare Christ speaking or telling it A good shephearde layeth downe his lyfe for his sheepe Therefore to rule well is this to spore none or nothinge for the sake of their gouernement especially sayth he those which labour in the worde and doctrine where are they nowe which saye there is no neede of the worde and doctrine and he commandeth that these be chieflie honoured and sheweth the cause saying because they susteyne much labour By all whiche is manifest first that the first part of the vers he vnderstādeth onli of gouernement for giuing the ful sēse of it he maketh it to be to spare none in respect of their gouernment so maketh with vs Elders which gouerne onely and Elders whiche also teache