It is not true we hold no such thing 2. The proofe hee brings no whit reacheth it 3. It is directly against his owne Authors he builds upon Answer to 32. q. p. 57. The calling saith he of Assemblies and dismissing them preaching the word and prayer administring the seales permitting to speake in the Assembly enjoyning silence voting of matters pronouncing of censures c. These are acts which the Presbyters may doe and no other members 4. It is contrary to himselfe chap. 6. Art 8. where he setts downe the severall acts which he himselfe saith we ascent unto our Officers Art 10. He saith That if a Minister who layes downe his ministry upon just grounds he is now become as a meere private man Answ Whereas hee is looked on and reverenced as a worthy instrument of Christ a man of gifts parts one that hath honored God in his house and may doe it againe and in meane time is imployed in dispensing his gifts c. is this to bee as a meere private man but hee is not able to speake without disparaging To Art 12. That the end of our Ministry is onely the building up of men already converted as supposing our members are all reall saints already nor are we bound by our Office to attend to conversion of soules and if any bee converted by us it is accidentall Answer He strangly forgets himselfe for 1 we say not that all our members are certainely reall Saints but only visibly so there may be some hypocrites amongst them probably that may neede conversion and therefore by our Office we are to attend that worke as farre as the needs of the stocke shall appeare 2 The children of our members the charge of whom our Ministers undertake even by vertue of their Offices are not yet haply converted and he is bound to fulfill his Office towards them As for the Author cited to prove this Art Ans to 32. q. 80. 81. he offords him not one title towards it therefore I looke upon this Art as a devised thing of his own as a great part of his booke is From this Art thus mistaken he drawes many invective conclusions against us in a long Marg. but to no purpose at all for the ground sincking the bulding falls and thus he shootes at his owne shadow ☞ So still he keepes his old custome 1 frames a false Art of his own as if it were ouâ—s 2 Then pretends a proofe which is none 3 Then falls out with us for holding such absurdities 4 Lastly drawes his inferences from his owne premises this is his dealing all along his booke And then to make all up he fall a taxing some brethren of that way here for two things 1 for neglecting to build up their owne Churches at home whereas he should first have proved that they have not a call to be absent for a time for their Churches good and with their consent 2. For labouring to convert others here not so much to grace saith he as to our Church-Covenant But let our owne Sermons preached not in corners but in the face of thousands testifie for us before God and men what the scope of our preaching hath beene and is He tell us Art 14. First That the Ministers in New-England are maintained by the Peoples volutary contribution 2. That this is cast in according to their weekely gaines 3 and distributed to them according as the Deacons thinke fit Here are three particulars affirmed and hardly any one of them true Ans for 1 this weekly contribution is properly intended for the poore according to 1 Cor. 16 1. Yet so as if there be much given in Some Churches doe though others do not appoint the over plus towards the Ministers maintenance 2 This is not given in by the peoplee according to their weekely gaines for that is an addition of his owne but as God hath blest them with an estate in the generall for suppose a member that is rich though he hath not gained but lost the weeke last past yet he contributes on the Lords day following 3 nor is this dispensed to the Ministers in those Churches where any part of it is so given though by the hands of the Deacons yet not for proportion as they please for this were to set the Deacons above the Pastour and Teacher but by the Church who usually twice in the yeare or oftner doe meete to consult and determine of the summe to be allowed for that yeere to their Ministers and to raise it either from the Churches treasurie so much of it as there is to be had or by a contribution to be then made on purpose 8. And for one proofe of all those he brings Ans to 32. q. 77. wherein is nothing to proove any one of the particulars mentiond but somethings rather against him For there it is said 1 that our Ministers maintenance must be honorable for his person charge and for hospitality 2. not as almes and courtesie but as debt and duty and to be paid according to rules of justice c. 3 but for a way of settled and stinted maintenance there is nothing done that may marke this except from yeere to yeare doe but compare these words with his narration Now upon these premises unfoundly laid hee builds many clamorous constructions in his Marg. which of themselves must needs fall with the ruines of their foundation without any trouble of mine Then he falls upon some of us in particular whosoever they are for strict requireing of so much set stipend for their lectures or else they will not preach 1. I must here professe solemly as in the fight of God for my part Answ I know not any one of us that doth so but sure I am I know some of the Contrary practise who neither stand compounding at all much lesse strictly as he saith require so much and so much least of all refuse to preach when such summes of the peoples owne voluntary profering lie unperformed But yet notwithstanding goe on as painefully and constantly in their preaching to them as before 2. Let me aske him one question for it is the third time he hath beene harping on this string that if he on good grounds knowes any to doe otherwise were it not a better way more loving and sutable to the rule of Christians admonition in personall failings to deale privatly and perticularly with such brethren for there are but very fewe of them here and it were easily done Then in stead of telling themselves to print it to the world to their discredit But if he indeede knowes none as I verily beleeve he doth not but goes upon surmises and so casts imputations upon them ungroundedly the sinne is the greater and God I hope will finde a time in mercy to deale with his conscience about it He holds still his old course 1. a false Article 2. pretended proof 3. inferences at pleasure 4 invectives against us his arrowes are shot against a brasen
AN ANSWER TO W. R. HIS NARRATION of the Opinions and Practises of the Churches lately erected in Nevv-England Vindicating those Godly and Orthodoxall Churches from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their Church way by the said W. R. in his Booke Wherein is plainely proved 1. That the grounds of his Narration are sandie and insufficient 2. That the maner of his handling it unloving and irregular 3. That the matter of it ful of grosse mistakes divers contradictions 4. That the quotations extremely wrested and out of measure abused 5. That his Marginall notes impertinent and injurious By THOMAS WELDE Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in NEVV-ENGLAND Jude 10. They speake evill of things they know not Prov. 18.17 He that is first in his owne case seemeth just but his neighbour commeth after and searcheth him This is Licensed and Entered according to Order LONDON Printed by Tho Paine for H. Overton and are to be sold at his shop entring into Popes-Head Alley out of Lumbard-Streete 1644. THE EPISTLE TO THE REDAER THere was a law in Israell Deut. 22.18 19 that if any man did bring an ill name upon a Virgin of Israell the matter was to come before the Elders and hee was to bee chastised and amerced an hundred shekells of silver There is one W. R. if thou knowest the man that hath brought many ill reports not upon one Virgin but all the Virgin-Churches of New-England When thou seest him do so much as bring him forth to Answer this law Tell him wee purpose to try an Action with him and have satisfaction from him And if hee saith hee hath not raised these reports himselfe but had them from others Then tell him again from us that cannot satisfie for we have learned from divine and humane lawes that if any bee taken reporting of slaunders as wee shall abundantly shew hee hath do◠his Narrative he may be charged as the raiser of ◠〈◊〉 hee can cleare himselfe by bringing such Authors into light as will owne them Dut. 17.6 2 Cor. 13.1 1 Tim. 5.19 But if he will not or cannot wee must lay them at his owne doore It s for all the severall reports in his booke brought against us and our wayes we expect the rule of Moses and the Apo-stle Paul that in the mouth of two or three witnesses and not under every matter should be established to produce Barrow Browne Robinson c. for Authors for they were dead before New-England Churches were borne or H. W. T. P. and I know not what private letters lying by him in his study for wee know not their voyce nor let him say it was told me as he often doth for wee protest against such testimony nor I was informedso c. for sama est mendax and prejudice hardly speakes well of any Tell him wee will goe to aged Paul hee was a good Divine to bee our Vmpire to determine what witnesse we must have in a case of accusation and to his verdict wee will stand which is set downe plainely 1 Tim. 5.19 Three things more let me say to the reader and I have done 1. Wonder not this Answer staid so long for it had certainly taken his narrative by the heele but that some speciall providence whose distracted lines intercepted the truth is I thought it should neede no other Answer then it selfe untill I perceived some ill effects of it 2 But why doe I undertake this worke Answer 1. I am one of the nearest kinsmen to those Churches of any other man in these parts and therefore I take my selfe bound to the name of my Brethren in a righteous way and not let it die through my neglect 2. Few or none are here have had more experience of New-England Church courses then my selfe through many yeares continuance with them and to whom I am returning when God makes way and am therefore able to speake on certainty and with conscience where W. R. departs from the truth in his relations 3. I have beene pressed by word of mouth and sundry letters to doe it therefore if I should hold my peace when I am called to speake and see so many innocent Churches suffer I should not lift up my face to God nor my Brethren there God knowes my spirit how exceeding loath I was to controvert with a Brother though but a defendant and to uncover his nakednesse but when God calls I am bound with Moses when he saw the Ebrew did wrong to his Brother to say why smitest thou thy fellow Exod. 2.13 3. Touching the answer it selfe some things I would say 1 I thinke it not meete to answer all I could nor to every particular especially in his Marginall extravagances that would be too tedious For our principall passages being answered unto the rest will fall of themselves 2. Nor to answer any thing in his booke so oft as hee repeates it for divers things are fetched over by him some three some foure severall times what his reasons are himselfe can best give account 3. Neither is it possible for me to answer the sayings of his private letters lying by him such a ground of Church stories as I never heard of because I know neither who they are nor what their owne words are or if I did were it materiall 4. Thou seest I have a three fold worke to answer 1. his Articles 2 his quotations 3 his Margent All which I have indeavored faithfully as in Gods presence to doe what oversight or infirmity hath passed my penne therein I crave thy pardon for we are weake men and God knowes too apt to forget our selves in greater things then these 5. What I here write is onely from my selfe if any weakenesse appeare impute it not I pray thee to the case in hand or our Churches iudgements there but to my owne frailty rather 6. Nor is it my scope to discusse the points of Discipline that worke is in abler hands but I looke upon his booke as an historicall narration and accordingly I frame my answer 7. Though he brings not the words of any of his Authors cited which had been fairer and might have kept him in closer bonds yet I have done it for him especially in the last sixe or eight Chapters that you may iudge whether hee hath dealt fairely with them or no. 8. When I recite W. R. his words in his narration you will see I have dealt candidly with him either mentioning his very words or so many of them as containe their full strength whereto my answer tends 9. When at any time in my answer I say such an Article or such a clause is untrue or is false I am not willing to impute the falsity thereof to the Authors knowledge I would iudge otherwise of him then so but to the thing it selfe asserted which may be done through his misinformation or mistake I will say no more but commit thy spirit to the wise guidance of the Father of lights who
we currently hold there is no visible Church but a particular and that we denie an universall visible Church IN ANY SENSE Answ Though the quoted Authors say There is no Church properly so called wherein Ordinances may be administered but a particularly only Yet wee acknowledge also IN SOME SENSE a Domesticall Church Phil. 2. To the Church in thy house and an VNIVERSALL Church consisting of all visible beleevers according to 1 Tim. 3.15 And this HIMSELF grants we hold Marg. 2. Art 2. Why then doth he say we denie an universall visible CHVRCHIN ANY SENSE He stumbles at the smalnes of the number of members in our Churches at their first erection 7. 8. 9. saith he and on this string he harpes foure or five times at least in this booke 1. What number expresly shall make a Church is not set downe in Scripture In Adams and Noahs time when there was not above 7. 8. or 9. persons will he denie the being of a Church And what will he make of Christ his family where were not above 12. besides himselfe And of the first foundationalls of the famous Church of Ephesus who were about 12. Art 19. 1. 7. and Bizâ— on that place saith Paul then planted a Church amongst the Ephesians 2. When our number is thus small it 's only in the very first infancy of it it abides not so but members are speedily and daily added untill they be as he blames us for not being a compleate organicall body Hence â—hese objections also in his Marg answered OF WANT OF IMPLOYMENT AND MAINTENANCE for the Officers in regard of their small number He saith Article the third We denie all representative Churches in a power of judicature Answ It is because we know no rule to set the Officers in the roome of their whole Church and the Presbyterie in the place of all their Churches to binde the one or the other to stand to their decrees unlesse we had Apostles on earth againe for Church Officers yet even they were very tender in this point To the Margent to Art 1. â—t he may prove the number of 7. 8. or 9 too small to adminiâ— censure and so no Church he makes a faire addition of his own to a rule of Christ for whereas Christ directs Mat. 18.15 16. an offended brother to take one or two only to him to admonish the offender in private and then tell the Church now he will have this course beyond the rule twice gone over that he may make the foresaid number too small for a Church-censure So that he will rather crosse Christ himselfe then not thwart us and here he makes a long discourse to shew his owne weaknesse the more in this new devised censure of his He saith The Apostles Churches consisted of many thousands 1. Not in their first beginnings Answ for in the greatest Church the number was small enough at first in comparison Acts 1.15 and this is the time of our Churches we now speake of 2. Their grouth was sudden and by an extraordinary way certain thousands being added in two dayes and so necessity inforced their abode together at present 3. They continued not long so great a body but were soone dispersed by Sauls persecution of them Act. 8.1 4. While they did hold together they might possibly meete to edification as well as in some of our Churches here in London as Cripple-Gate Olives Sepulchers and others where the Ministers voyce may reach to edification 4. 5. 6. 7000. soules every Lords day Vid. Mr. Mathers booke pag. Therefore for him to say it is not possible c. is too large He tells us our Churches cannot be gathered in country Villages especially of such choyce Members c. where so few Saints are c. 1. That is the fault of people not of the rule nor of the way Answer If the Saints be thin sowen who can helpe it They ought to have flowed in more abundantly to Christ by the Gospell in all this time 2. They may partake of all Ordinances as they did except the Sacraments and such as are fit of those also in best times and ways as may be ordered for most conveniency 3. He must not limit Gods power who by the word rightly dispensed and his blessing thereon Gen. 13.14 can raise a people for himselfe beyond all our thoughts Ephes 3.10 as he hath done elswhere He takes much paines to no purpose in Marg. Art 2. to prove in confutation of us that in some sense M 9.3 there is an universall visible Church Answ Why we never denied it in some sense but blamed him even now for saying we denied it ☞ I wonder at the man who saith 1. That we hold what we doe â—â— 2. Then pretendeth to prove it but falsifies his Authors 3. Then makes confutation of his own sayings as if they were ours 4. Then flings reproaches on us for such sayings which are not ours but his 5. To make us amends in the end of his Margent he fathers all upon our mutablenesse saying sometimes we acknowledge an universall visible Church but usually denie it and yet even in this also he slanders not bringing nor being able to bring I verily believe one word of proofe that ever we denied it Let him make those things good or humbly confesse his error 5. To Marg. of Art 3. he saith Though we denie in Art 3. the Officers of one Church power to represent their Church in her judicature c. yet sometimes we are forced to use messengers to represent the whole body as at the constitution of a new Church and private examination of Members to be admitted Answer c. Thus he would beare the world in hand if you wil believe him that our practise doth crosse our Principles but there is no such thing for here he proves not neither can that we denie a Church that libertie which all societies in the world have i. e. to depute delegate her Officers in some particular cases as in her name and stead to represent the whole body for this is no more then the Church of Antioch did Act. 15.2 and then our selves frequently doe in some instance he mentions and divers others But what is this to the giving those Officers generally a power of judicature in and over that Church and a compound Presbyterie in and over all their Churches whom he saith they represent because we denie the latter doe we therfore the former 3 It is meete he should take notice of a double aspersion without any shew of ground or proofe cast upon us 1. That we denie any representation of Churches 2. That we crosse our principles in practising what we denie both these imputations I hope he will honestly acquit us of Marg. Art 4. In the difinition saith he of a Church the Officers are left out He knowes well that a definition must accord to the lowest degree of the thing defined therefore we use to put in only essentialls
their covenant and he saith they must enter in afresh as if they had never yet beene received at all This we must tell him is not faire dealing and what will now become of his marginall note upon the Article so mistaken Many other collections besides what we have answered to already he makes in his marginall notes on this chapter by way of objection against us which deserve a little answering as In his margent to Article 2. A strange yet bold assertion saith he spoken without good show of reason but what is this bold assertion That Job and Melchisedec were no Members of the visible Church I intreat the Reader to see if his Authors quoted for these words Answ will beare him out in these bold accusations of us or no All that Ans to 34 37. saith is this We make no question of the salvation of Job and his friends yet it is a great question whether they were of any visible Church or no and gives his reason seeing the visible Church in those times seemed to be appropriated to the posterity of Abraham c. of whose line it cannot easily be proved that all these men did come And all the other cited Author Cns to 9. Pos 66. saith is this We no where read there is this reason that Milchisedec Job and his four friends were circumcised neither doe we believe they were Now see whether 1. we say and conclude that these holy men were in no Church 2. if we boldly assert it 3. without good shew of reason 4. if there needs a marginall confutation He saith that Baptisme though it doth not really admit infants into the visible Church yet formally it doth c. He speakes besides the point for the question is not 1. Answer What doth formally and in the ceremony but really admit Members 2. not Infants but men of yeers 3. not into the visible Church but a particular congregation so he might have spared this labour which makes nothing for him or against us To his long Margent to the 3. Article wherein he grants a covenant in a four-fold sense but denies and inveys against the strictnesse of our Church covenant I should have answered but because he builds all upon a grosse mistake which was answered already in Article 1. i. e. that we make this vocall and expresse covenant necessarily for that constituting of a true Church and say that all societies are whores and Concubines without it a speech abhorted of us I passe it by and tell him that what he builds upon such rotten foundations will ruere mole suâ He makes foure false suppositions and then drawes sundry conclusions of his own from them and so fights with his own shadow pag. 15. 16. As first that we hold the Church Covenant is the Covenant of grace 2. That in our Church Covenant we hold it necessary and a thing essentiall to the Covenant to make repetition of the whole covenant of grace 3. That our covenanting to performe duties to our owne Church hinders our communion with and care of all other Churches Which things being nothing so but meere mistakes all his collections from them vanish in the aire 4. That some men doe enter into this Covenant and yet are unsatisfied that it is a way of God and so cannot safely engage themselves by this covenant Which also being a meere fancie of his owne I passe by The next is as strange as weake p. 17 i. e. That if we have a set foâ—â—â— of a Church-covenant imposed upon all that enter into the Church ☞ and this read in a booke why may we not as well have a set forme of Prayer and leiturgie to be read in Churches â—sw The Narratour shewes still a good minde to set formes it is the third time he hath been harping on this string First for Overtures and shewes in members then for set and standing rules or formes in admissions now for set formes of prayer and that in Churches are to be read also in a booke He was hard driven for arguments else he would never have produced this as a ground for set formes of prayer in Churches For he might know there is a large breadth of difference betwixt a Covenant and a prayer For 1 the one is presented to God himselfe only The other to man also 2. The severall Articles and all branches of the one had neede bee certainely knowne and agreed on beforehand that they may punctually and deliberately know what the particulars are they engage themselves to God in no such ground for our Petitions in prayer 3. The one had neede to bee written for remembrance lest we should forget in tract of time what the severall branches were we bound our selves unto according to Jer. 50.5 A perpetuall Covenant not to bee forgotten I know no such ground for our Petitions in Prayer nay it is impossible to doe it 4. Set formes of prayer are a stinting of the Spirit who hath promised to enlarge our spirits by helping our infirmities in prayer as well in matter as manner in What as well as How to Pray Rom. 8.26 Wee know no such promise for extemporary assistance in the matter and forme of a Covenant 5. Reading prayer in a booke hinders the affection which is one principall thing in prayer but our maine worke whiles the Covenant which we take is rehearsing is attention judgment consideration all which are not hindred but much furthered and helped by distinct reading of it 6. By reading of a set forme of prayer in the Church the Ministers gifts which Christ hath given him for that end Eph. 4.8.11 are obscured and in great degree buryed and the presenting to God the several and continuall necessities of the congregation extreamely hindred and restrained Neither of which are done by a set forme of a Covenant agreed unto and read at the taking of it 7. We have expresse warrant in Scripture for a forme of words and writing of a Covenant which is the very thing we are blamed for see Neh. 9.38 And because of all this we make a sure Covenant and write it seale to it And Nehem. 10.29 to the end of the chap. there are set downe the expresse Articles forme and words of the Covenant that was written and subscribed and sealed by them Let him shew us the like warrant in the word for a Liturgie or set forme of booke prayer for a congregation I much wonder that a grave learned man especiall in such reforming times as these should so farre forget himselfe as to make such parallels and talke still of Liturgies He saith 1. in this Marginall that the Church imposeth that set forme of Covenant invented by one or more upon all the Members of that Church Hee reports in the 9. Article to which this Marginall belongs That the Covenant is ever in one and the same forme of words as well as matter in the same Church Both which are great mistakes 1 To the former Answ though the
it may be so And yet when he comes to speake of the other part of the contradiction i. e. that we have no communion in the Sacraments as if he studied to crosse himself he is as full in his deniall of it vid. cap. 9. Art 4 5. 2. Note how thicke his sayings and unsayings fall in Cap. 9. Art 1. ☜ He affirmes we hold Communion with other Churches and Church members and then presently in 4 5. Art of the very same chap. he expresly denies that we hold any such communion Then againe in the very next chap. the 10. Art 1. he saith as full as can be that we hold communion mutually with other Churches and by in chap. 12. 8. as fully and expressely denies againe that we hold any such thing The man being an able and judicious man in other things it is more remarkable he should be thus extreamely left to confound himselfe while he sought to confound our poore innocent Churches Let any carefully observe in all these things mentioned whether I have not dealt candidly with him or no. Art 2. He reports 1 That one Church may give power to another over any of her members for excommunication 2 That the Minister of one Church may convey power to the Ministers of another for the administration of the Sacraments Answer Neither of both which doe wee hold or practise The onely Author cited that we can come at is Cot. Cat. p. 7. whose words are these The Supper is dispenced by the Minister to the faithfull of the same Church or to such as are cōmended to them by a like body See if here be one tittle to bear him out Yet from these assertions which he saith we hold he flings rebukes upon us in his comments upon his owne Text. p. 37. whereas indeede wee might reprove his 1 misreporting 2 abusing his Author 3 reproving us without cause Without letters of recommendation from one Church and Minister to another it is unlawfull saith he Art 3. in any case to administer any Church ordinance to any Church member but their owne upon any pretence whatsoever 1. Here is neither truth nor proofe to be seene Answ 2. Letters of recommendation for publique participation are not sent from one Minister to another but from a Church to a Church 3. We hold it not unlawfull but doe often practise to receive other members to communion with us without letters especially if they bee knowne to any of our Church else such letters are desireable but hee saith We doe it not in any case upon any pretence whatsoever which is utterly false and without proofe He tells us That wee are so strait-laced that if a company of godly people should sit neere us where our power reacheth differing from us only in some points of Church-Government they should not onely not be owned as a sister Church but should be in danger of severe punishment by our Magistrate Ans 1 If you weigh well this accusation of us in all the particulars it is very harsh and sore and here is no proofe but H. W. who this should be I professe I cannot tell unlesse some malignant or back-friend amongst us there or whether such a thing were ever written in these words and sense I know not and if it be certainly so written and from a godly man yet it is but one single witnesse and I am forbidden and so are all others 1 Tim. 5.19 to receive an accusation against one Elder much more against all the Elders and Churches in New-England without two or three witnesses therefore we dare not beleeve it 2. To this very point in hand the Ans to 32. 9. p. 82 83. speakes fully and fairely which W. R. well knowing for it was written to himselfe amongst others deales not candidly to conceale that Answer of a printed booke from known Authors of credit in New-England because it is faire and loving for what other ground could hee have and bring in the Answer of H.W. a man we know not which is harsh and distastfull how can the concealing of that and relating of this seeme ingenuous or friendly to us or the truth Answer to CHAP. XI HE makes report of a groundlesse course as he calles it in the Church at Cambridge in New-England where saith he the people use to meet together privately each one to hold forth the work of grace in his or her soule from the first conversion to that day so that their Pastour might know their growth in grace And saith also that as some report the end of this meeting was to cast out by excommunication non-proficients Ans With what face can any godly man call such meetings of the Saints for such an holy end as to try their growth in grace a groundlesse meeting and so cast dirt upon it for he makes proofe of no other end besides that 2. Did these godly people ever cast any out of the Church there meerely for non-proficiency 3. He hath still forgotten that rule in 1 Tim. 3.19 that requires two or three witnesses to bee brought forth c. who yet proceeds upon I know not what relations to beleeve and report yea and print to the view of the world what in his opinion may detract from a Reverend Elder and a godly Church also No marvell he calls his Book a poore pamphlet truly it is so indeed if all things we have discovered in it be well weighed and it will appeare yet poorer before we have done to any candid reader It is our humble suit to heaven that God will discover to himselfe the weakenes and error of his dealings herein for the humbling of his spirit Answer to CHAP. XII A Short Answer might serve to this long Chapter for most of it as also of the two next is but a repetition of things spoken once or twice some of them thrice before and answered to already He said in the beginning of his preface he wanted not work◠but it seemes now towards the end of his booke he is more at leasure and so hee thinkes his reader is also else why he should so double treble the very same things totidem verbis I know not unlesse happily to make a deeper impression of his owne mistakes in his reader In Art 1. he tells us that after a Church is gathered it is often some yeares before she addresseth her selfe to the calling of Officers Whereas it is our usuall and constant course as hath beene said not to gather any Church untill they have one amongst themselves Ans fit for a Minister whom with all speede they call into Office and account themselves a lame and imperfect body till that be effected In his Marg. on that Art he saith hee is told to his comfort that many that were counted good Ministers in Old-England are there layed aside because they aime at men of speciall parts 1. We desire proofe for this aspersion unjustly cast on us Answ or else we shall still father it upon himselfe as
cause here you see is 1 faction 2 partiality 3 both those appearing 4 obstinacy 5 continuing in obstinacy after meanes used according to rule all these before the censure of admonition passed but you in your relation leave out all these words of your Authors and put in such of your owne as will not so much enforce a censure as these and then taxe us at your pleasure and make bitter invectives against us in your Margent If I should have retorted and said This dealing of yours is harsh uncharitable foolish destructive c. it would have troubled you yet you are but a single person those whom you reproach are whole Churches many Churches of Saints but wee have learned what the Apostle saith 1 Pet. 2.23 and to forbeare This Article being thus laid prostrate there is nothing at all in his Marginal extraction worth answer He blames us Art 12. That we deny unto the Church all power to make any particular rules or lawes in things indifferent conducing to the better Governement of her selfe and more orderly and edifying performance of Gods worship accordâ—ng to the generall rules of Scripture c. 1. He hath falsified his printed Authors alledged for this Art Ans Answ to 32. q. 66. Col. Cap. 7. where is not a syllable of things indifferent for whereas they indeede denie Churches power to make lawes about Church Governement c. their words meaning are expressed it is only in such matters where the Scripture hath made lawes already and therefore they say The Churches have no power to make lawes but to observe those lawes which Christ hath given and commanded and doe alleadge Mat. 28.20 Deut. 33.3 Iohn 20.27 None I hope can thinke this a thing indifferent for us to add lawes to Christ his owne lawes and this is all they say 2. If you meane by making of lawes inferring of plaine and necessary conclusions from their proper grounds in Scripture wee grant a power in a Church so to doe yet so as they shall not be binding unlesse the evidence of the consequence be made appeare as Rom. 14.5.22.23 But iâ— by making of lawes you meane a drawing of conclusions from râ—mote Principles such as the Bishops were wont to doe All things must bee decently done and in order therefore a Surplice a Crosse in Baptisme a bowing at the Altar c. we deny it as an inlet of all humane inventions Many of the Marginalls of this 6 Chap. are already answered some few remaine as Who would not long to be churched seeing they are indued with such a vast power this is a sweet morsell no marvell peoples teeth so water after it c. p. 23. I can tell you who longs not for Churching it is W. R. himselfe who with heart â—sw hand and pen thus opposeth it but why doe not his teeth also water after it It is I suppose because the people have a voyce in Church matters and Ministers cannot carrie all 2 Why doe you thinke W. R. that peoples teeth should so much water after this way seeing they are under many watchfull eyes a strict Covenant disgraces in the world sharpe censures and overharsh too if all you say be true therefore why should they so much desire these waies thinke you they being so crosse to corruption that would have elbowroom unlesse they did see and feele our beauty and warmth of Christ in them This is the true and reall cause The word saith h and the Sacraments should be both setled on the Ministry Goe preach and baptize c. Why doe wee separate them pag. 23. To Preâ—ch by Office which is the preaching that Christ there gives in commission to his Disciples being called to be Apostles is proper only to Ministers â—swer who are to waite upon teaching Rom. 12.7 and this preaching and the administration of the Sacraments are ever joyned together in the same person But there is a preaching in a large sense i. e sometimes to apply a word of instruction exhortation consolation if necessity shall require according to their talent being invited thereunto and this may be common to other godly and able Christians though not called into Office as Art 8. 1. 4. where the whole Church except the Apostles were scattered by persecution and they that were so scattered without distinction of Ministers or people went to and fro preaching therefore others besides Ministers in some case may preach the word if you take preach in a larger sense 3. For the two instances hee brings p. 24. of Peoples unabilitie of iudging electing voting c. from Holland and Boston c. 1. The best people on earth may have their houre of temptation and personall failings doe not hinder the goodnesse or truth of the rule â—nsw 2. What Church in the world hath not possibly first or last given or else may give strange instances of humane frailty but still you count their way good 3. Even those Churches you mention were able at other times both before and since to act as becomes prudent and godly men though possibly at that time they might shew themselves to be but men 4. These persons recovered out of their error and lay not in it you should have mentioned this as well as that If the Officers through scruple of conscience perhaps refuse to act according to their i. e. the peoples minde they will they hold they may call fourth any other member to do and enable him with power to doe all that their Officers should have done except Sacraments A most unjust and slanderous report and without any word of proofe Answ so now we must father it upon him and doe here require him to prove it for almost every word is an aggravation but I study brevity and mentioned this before Art 9. They complaine in print that their Ministers are slighted amongst them yea trampled upon by some And mentions for this Cot. on 2 vial p. 24. of whose words judge and you shall not finde one word to warrant him All his invectives against us on the 11. Article Marg. for extorting a consent from such as dissent from us is exceeding slaunderous and not a word true nor any tittle of proofe for none are ever admonished for dissenting but for faction and obstinacy as his Authors speake as was said before Let me heare tell the Reader there are sundry unsound and uncouth passages in this chap. as indeede through the whole booke which for brevity I am forced to passe by and indeede not worth my time I intreate thee to take all his sayings with a graine of salt knowing from what spirit they proceede Answer to CHAP. VII IN this 1. Art there are three things that will be found too light 1. He affirmes we say all men are bound to be setled members of a particular Church Yet in his Margent he affirmes Answ we allow some to bee admitted transient members for a time only Now to be setled and yet transient are