blood and yet if the matter was too hard the same man was a Judge and a Member of the Sanhedrim Deut. 17. Mr. H. his last difference The Iudicature of Classis and Congregations do not differ formally saith Mr. R. but onely in more or lesse extension of power Ans. Then there are no specifical acts that the one puts forth but the other can put forth as occasion shall require gradus non variant speciem then they can ordain officers and excommunicate in the Congregation He said before if there be the same office there is the same definition and the same causes to wit of election and choice of the Classical and of the Congregational Elders Ans. The difference is only of more or less as of a River and the whole Element though divers learned men judge the Congregation to be no governing Church at all but only their Elders the delegates of the Presbyterial Church which consisting of divers Congregations is the first governing Church 2. There are no sâ—â—cifick acts which the Elders collectively taken may not exercise in both the one and the other but then shall it not follow thâ—â— a single congâ—â—gational Eldership may ordain and exâ—â—mmunicate in one 〈◊〉 Congregation there alone divided from the body for congrâ—…nal Elders cannot teach oâ—derly and he is the God of ordâ—r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his Church in all the Congregations without a calâ— Nor 2. Exercise the power of a Synod in them all 3. I 〈◊〉 this argument Archippâ—â— hath the same office to the whole Congregation and to the single mâ—mbers who chused him and whom he feeds or then he hath so many officer as there be chusing and fed members â—â—ught by the word and ruled which is absurd Eâ—go as the single voâ—â— of one member made him a Pastor to one and of a second made him a Pastor to a second and so forth So the â—otes of the whole made him a Pastor to the whole for that is the same officâ— thâ—â— hath the same causes and the same choice and election saith M◠〈◊〉 Ergo where the same causes are not the same office cannot be but one single electing vote and the electing votâ—â— of the whole Church by Mr. H. his way cannot be the same causes for one vote makes him not a Pastor 2. If Archippuâ— hath the same office to the whole congregation and to every single member then as he 〈◊〉 pastoral acts of teaching and ruling to the whole so to the parts and single members but this latter is denied by Mr. H page 104 who saith That a Pastor cannot put forth Pastoral acts but in the Church assembly A strange imagination Mr. H. By the same official power saith Mr. R. that a Pastor teacheth his own fleck viva voce he teacheth others by writing Ans This is a new invention that I never heard of before 1. The official power by which he preacheth he receiveth by election and he may be rejected from it by the people in case of delinquency 2. By his official power he may require them to hear but may not require all Churches to read his writings and if they offensively refuse to read he cannot censure them as he may censure them that refuse to hear the word 3. If this power of writing of Books to edifie the Churches proceed from his office all Ministers by their office should write Books 4. That which another may do with as much authority and more authority of truth as being more able yet being out of office that cannot belong to the officer but to write books is such Ans. 1 Official power is not from election but from the saying on of the hands of the Elders 1 Tim. 3. 1 2. 1 Tim. 4. 14. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2 2. Tit. 1. 5. 2. It is true that a Pastor cannot require by his office those of another Congregation to hear him preach and receive the seals from him nor censure them if they refuse but it is a bad consequence of Logick therefore he doth not exercise these pastoral acts to them by his office as the Brethren grant 2. A Minister by his office may require his hearers to give much alms pray much read and confer much both these of his own and other flocks yet he cannot censure them for not coming up to the highest pitch of these affirmative duties except he may rebuke them and so may he do all who are remiss in reading edifying writings and the Church may censure unsound books Acts 15. 24. 3. Neither Mr. R. nor any judicious man can teach that either a gift to write Books or of eminent preaching praying exhorting proceeds out of a power of office it is a sanctified gift which the Church seeth and judgeth to be in any before they call him to office and any gift is by order of nature and time before the office and so proceeds not from the office and therefore it is not required that every Pastor should have a gift of writing books but if the Lord have given it to any they exercise it as such gifted officers as the Prophets and Apostles as such Prophets so gifted did write Canonick Scriptures so are Pastors if gifted to write and preach in their way and both to write and preach by their office Nor is it good Logick that all in office should write books because some by vertue of their office writ books for a Minister gifted with four Talents is obliged to gain with these four Talents and that as a Minister by vertue of his office but it is weak Logick to infer Ergo all Ministers by vertue of their office are obliged to gain with four Talents for many are obliged by vertue of their office to gain with only two to their Lord and with only one 4. It was needless to Mr. H. to prove writing of books doth not belong to the power of office because a learned man out of office may do it with more authority for Mr. R. had no such intention For sure if such a thing agreed to the office-power as the office-power then all Officers Pastors Elders were obliged to write books and yet Mr. H. does not very happily prove it because many learned men unofficed may with more authority of truth write books then officed men It is only some officed men he must mean or it is not true And then I retort it thus many officed men may write books with more authority both of truth and of office and two are better then one then some unofficed men less learned Ergo some gifted Pastors do not as Pastors so gifted and by vertue of their office relating both to the presbyterian Church and their own Congregation edifie all the Churches about by writing books It follows not Mr. H. We are told that Elders are ruling in all Churches collectively taken and they are teachers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in some reserved acts not constant teachers he that rules teacheth but always the
Now that is the true meaning of Mr. H. for this of Mr. R. must bide yet strong these that have no Church-power can put forth no Church-act Such as one Church may put forth toward another single Sister-Church as Mr. R. often granteth as one single man cannot excommunicate another yet one single man being a Pastor in a Church Judicature joined with the Church binding and loosing such as is Mat. 18. may give consent not private by way of counsel but publick by way of authoritative influence as a partial and collateral cause that Paul Gal. 2. be authoritatively adopted into the number of the Apostles that they be excommunicate who say they are Apostles but are not and do lye Rev. 2. and a married wife hath no marriage-power over any man but over her own husband nor is it to be heard which Mr. H. saith I but she may put forth an act of love and counsell to all men But I ask may she put forth a certain act of matrimonial love or perform a certain matrimonial duty to all men on earth this would be too near unchast acting So let Mr. H. answer whether these three Iames Cephas and Iohn gave Apostolick publick consent that Paul should be received an Apostle or only a private counsel If the former be said why contend we if the latter what more had Paul from the given right hand of these Apostles then he had before he was no more to them an Apostle then before yea more to three private Believers in Galatia contrary to the scope of Gal. 2. These Churches sent to the Parliament that way not representing the National Church and Kingdom covenanted with the Lord can give no Church-determination more then so many single Pastors yet it is an official judgement not a private judgement Mr. H. It is not warrantable that one not in office saith Mr. R. but a private Christian should pray exhort preside in the framing of a Church and in ordaining of Pastors Ans. The practice of the Church of Scotland will say to this we allow not publick prophesying of unofficed men Ans. 1. Here is ordinary prophecying such as that of the Apostle Peter at the calling of Matthias Act. 1. and publick Church-prophesying and praying such as is by the Prophets or presbytery of the Church of Antioch Act. 13. when Paul Barnabas were called to be Apostles to the Gentiles and since officers are but adjuncts of the Church to Mr. H. and separable accidents by no institution of Christ have pastors hand in ordaining pastors but the setled way till Christs second coming is that the male-Church kindly per se make and unmake all the officers which cannot be done but by Church prophesying of unofficed men 2. Expectants being pastors in fieri sons of the prophets by command of the prophets vi materiae for trial must prophesie that you cannot warrantably say from Scripture of your prophets LIB II. CHAP. I. Whether or not a company of Believers destitute as yet of Officers and combined together by this new Covenant be truely called and be in truth and indeed a Church MR Hooker moves the question whether such a company be a Church indeed by which he insinuates that it is a certain kind of a visible Church but not the only visible Church instituted by Christ in the New Testament Therefore Mr. H. stands obliged either to form the question in other terms or to shew which is the only instituted visible Church in the New Testament for the discipline-Discipline-book of N. E. saith that Church which Christ in his Gospel hath instituted to which he hath committed the Keyes the Officers Censures is coetus fidelium a combination of the godly called a particular visible Church And Mr. H. comes to our hand and so with a trumpet giving an uncertain sound he tells he speaks of the Congregational Church as it goes before Officers which is a Man in the Moon and proved by no Scripture at all Mr. H. The trumpet here gives an incertain sound M. R. expressions are so full of variety Ans. It is a groundless charge except you bring expressions of Mr. R. ambiguities which is not legible to the Reader I blow the trumpet alwayes against such a visible Church as Mr. H. forgeth by arguments from the word which are not answered Mr. H. A Church ministerial is taken two wayes 1. Generally as implying any delegate power in the exercise of any Church-acts under Christ. So a company of visible Saints hath power of admission of members and election of officers and in case they prove heretical to reject the officer and make him no officer All these are granted by Mr. R. Ministerial power is taken strictly as it includes an office power so it is not ministerial Ans. Mr. H. dictates but neither teaches nor brings one word of Scripture to prove a distinction that hath neither head nor feet 2. The members of the distinction are coincident for to ordain officers and excommunicate them is governing strictly and most properly as is in the second member And yet in the first member to excommunicate makes a ministerial Church largely so called The distinction is a begging of the question and destroyes it self for it is to ask whether visible Saints wanting such as are the only Governours and Rulers who are called in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Cor. 12. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 5. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 13. 17. Rulers be a ruling and a governing Church for a Society that doth ordain Elders and which censures them if heretical with excommunication must be a Ruling and so a Ministerial Church if there be any Ruling and Ecclesiastick Church on Earth If any say that a Society that appoints Stewards and Officers over the house and excommunicateth them is not a politick governing Society they may deny that the man which maketh use of reason is a reasonable creature And to frame a distinction and say a man is a reasonable creature in that sense is poor Logick We can give instances where the Presbytery ordains and layes on hands 1 Cor. 4. 14. and where Titus and other Elders are to ordain Elders in every City Tit. 1. 5. and Timothy and in him others are charged to lay on hands and ordain no man suddenly while he be proved to be a fit Officer 1 Tim. 5. 22. 1 Tim. 3. 10. and where Timothy and others with him are commanded 2 Tim. 2. 2. to commit the ministry to faithful men who are able to teach others Would Mr. H. shew so much for the power of Rule in a company of Believers void of Officers or give us a shadow of reason in the word from precepts practices promises for this new Church that ordains and excommunicates without Officers they should have something to say to this who upon good groun◠say they coyn a new Church of their own unknown to word Mr. H. indeed elswhere saith
teach any of them or all of them is not sinful But sure the Apostles might govern send their decrees and Epistles to many Churches the members whereof they never saw in the face Nor could all the many thousands who had power of judging with the Elders as our Brethren say meet in one place comely and comfortably to act and therefore Christ so must never have appointed such a judicature to rule all these congregations who are entitatively one so must they say what we say and more For all the congregations on earth are entitatively and in nature one and yet our Brethren will be far from saying that they are all under one government as they say that these meetings at Ierusalem were M. H. The rest of the examples of Antioch Ephesus Rome though it were granted upon their greater growth and increase and so want of Elders they might meet in divers places for the while these might still be under one presbytery their officers in a distinct manner attending upon them And therefore Gerson Bucerus in his answer sayes here Quis adeo ineptire sustinuerit c. Who can say that because they meet in divers places they were under divers Presbyteries or Elders Ans. 1. This is a short way of answering with a leaving out of the Church of Samaria a great City wherein all both men and women were baptized the Church of Corinth of Thessalonica c. 2. And yet there is no lesse cause to say all the Saints at Rome Antioch Ephesus Samaria could not meete in one place then that these of Ierusalem could not 2. If they might meet in divers places for the while and yet be under one Presbytery Here is a Presbyteriall Church of many Congregations for a while Here is a Prelaticall and Antichristian Government for a while at least ordained by Christ. And Mr. H. writes a Book with a huge noise of absurdities with which he burdens his Brethren the Presbyterians yet he will suffer their Church to stand for a while 3. Who told Mr. H that a Presbyterial Church may stand for a while during the time of the growth of the the Church of Ierusalem Antioch Ephesus but no longer for when the swarmed out Churches are once setled the Presbyterian Church must downe againe since the Scripture speakes nothing of this Who gave Mr. H. leave to set up an Antichristian Tabernacle for so is the Presbytery to him for an houre and pull it downe again 4. It is a wonder that Mr. H. should cite Gerson Bucer cuttedly as a Witnesse so much for a Presbyteriall Church not in the swarming out of Churches onely of which Bucer hath not one word but in the setled state of the Church for Bucer contradicts Mr. H. and all his as foolishly erring when they say such Churches meet in divers places for the Word and Seales Ergo they are independent in their government and cannot be under one common government Bucer saith if they lie near together it is folly to say they are under divers Presbyteries and so say we Mr. H. 2. It doth not appear out of any Text nor any evincing Argument gathered therefrom that setting aside the Church of Jerusalem they should needs meet in several places Ans. Then the Church of Ierusalem met in sundry places by Mr. H. his argument but this shall offend the dissenting Brethren that maintain against the Synod at Westminster that they meet all in one place 2. Mr. H. should have given a reason why the Church of Ierusalem met in sundry places and not the other Churches of Antioch Ephesus but because he saw our Arguments run as strong for other Churches as for Ierusalem He was pleased to dictate what he could not demonstrate and so leave the Reader in the dark 3. Before I leave this let Mr. H. or his teach what is meant by this that there were about three thousand added to the Church Act. 2. 21. whether by the Church be meant the one hundred and twenty of which ch 1. and whether there the one hundred and twenty were there to receive the three thousand as members at that time in a judicial way And if they were not there how the three thousand were not added primarily to the Catholike Christian Church that then was and secondarily to this or to that Church as we say For when there were said to be added to the Church they were not added to themselves Mr. H. 3. Let it be considered whether by Church may not be meant many Churches Saul made havock of the Church i. e. of the faithful of many Churches Ans. It is weak as water Saul persecuteth the Church i. e. members of the independent Church Ergo there is no Presbyterial Church Ergo there is not such a thing as a Synod for he persecuted Iames Peter and the Elders and Brethren members of the Synod where he might find them now the Apostles were not fixed member of congregations and let Mr. H. consider whether Luke gives not a better interpretat on then he Act. 83. Saul made havock of the Church entring into every house and haling mâ—n and women and committed them to pâ—ison So that Saul destroyed the scattered members that were nâ—t inchurched and where he found any of this way Act. 9. 2. whether members of a congregation or not even members of divers meetings under one Presbytery as he grants he persecuted them And by this the Church at Ierusalem Act. 11. 22. must be Churches congregational at Ierusalem And Act. 2. The Lord added to the Church such as should be saved that is the Lord added to divers Independent Congregations such as should be saved good but this Church and these common Elders meet for acts of Government Act. 2. 18. and the day following Paul went in with us to Jâ—… and all the Elders verse 25. were present Sâ—re the place shewes they meet for acts of Government Yea Act. 11. 30. 21. 18. They sent alms to the Elders of Iudea to be distributed to the distressed in Iudea As also the Elders of Iudea were members of the Synod Act. 1â— And how could there be administrating of the seals without any jurisdiction at all to debar the unworthy CHAP. IX The Arguments of Mr. R. for a Ministerial Church from Matth. 18. are vindicated from the Exceptions of Mr. Hooker MR. H. If Christ allude to the Synedry then must Mat. 18. be expounded of a Presbyterial Church Mr. H. both Proposition and Assumption is denied Ans. Mr. H. leaps from one Book to another I no where frame an Argument from a meer allusion but so if Christ so allude to an authoritative company that hath power of binding and loosing as the Jewish Sanhedrim in this Mat. 18. then he judgeth the Church Mat. 18. to be a Juridical Church 2. It s a poor Argument he alludes not to the Jewish Synagogue because that Synagogue had no power of Excommunication as this Church Mat. 18. hath
this flocks choice gave him causatively right and being not simply to be a Pastor ordination of the Elders Act. 6. 6. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim. 5. 22 c. did that but to be this flocks fixed Pastor for we must distinguish betwixt a Pastor and this peoples Pastor a Pastor actu primo and a fixed Pastor in the second acts and exercise of his calling hic nunc to this people as touching their formales rationes if our Brethren will give us leave if not we value not Scripture and good Logick are for us 3. Mr. Ball and Mr. R. say not in several places yes no where that the people may preach and baptize if they give causatively being to Pastor and Teacher but the people may then do and perform as high acts official and juridical To the impertinent instance of Aldermen and Major I have answered 4. It is but â—nsis and gladius that is in the reply for the peoples delivering up themselves by voluntary subjection to be ruled by him gives him no more being and right to be a Pastor but only right to be their Pastor which is accidental to their calling then the sick mans voluntary subjection of and delivering up of his body and health under the Lord and Creator of life to Thomas a skilled Physician to follow all his medicinal injunctions gives causatively being to Thomas to be Physician whereas he was a Physician many years before Mr. H. Ordination is not an act of supreme Iurisdiction but of order rather It gives not being nor constitution to an officer but is rather the admission and confirmation of him in his office Ans. That is said not proved if it be an act of order and commanded of God aâ— where the regulating of a thing that it be not done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rashly is commanded there the thing it self is commanded 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Then your ordinatihn by the sole male Church void of all officers and calling of officers without officers a thing without example in the Scripture except where God calls immediatly wants an act of order commanded of God and that in an ordinary way for your way is in ordinary the Church is before the officers and gives being to the officers 2. If ordination be but an approbation of the officers who have already being and not necessary that ordination should be where there is election of people then it shall be strange that there were officers at all the calling of officers we read of in the New Testament who yet need not be there but are ex superabundanti present as Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 13. 1 2 3. Act. 14. 23. 1 Tim. 4. 14 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. 1 Tim. 3. 10 c. and no where is there vola vel vestigium of a command or promise to the Church destitute of officers to call and give being to officers nor any practice of the Apostles for it And I am so far from owning such a Logick as Mr. H. puts upon me The Church have not received power of excommunicating all their officers Ergo they have not received that power aâ— neither thing nor words are in my mind or book But I provoke all the Brethren for a warrant or shadow of a warrant by precept by promise by practice in Scripture for a Church void of officers that hath power to call and give being to officers or admit in or cast out members or perform any Church worship 3. Let it be considered if Christ have given any jurisdiction at all it must be in calling and in giving being to the officers of Christs visible Kingdom but the specifick acts of giving being to the officers are to set men over the work Act. 6. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to separate and set apart for the calling Act. 13. 2. to prove 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before they be put in the Ministry whether they have the requisite qualifications or not 1 Tim. 3. 10. to lay hands on men for the office cautelously 1 Tim. 5. 2â— to commit the charge to faithful men able to teach others 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. are ascribed to Elders to Prophets to Pastors Shew me the like ascribed to your Church wanting officers Mr. R. his comparisons of an Embassador c. must stand then till you answer these often proposed Arguments It is weak that Mr. H. that the Elders of Ephesus was congregational Mr. H. answers not my Arguments on the contrary nor toucheth them 2. It s most weak to say Dath Paul exhort the Elders when they are assembled in the Classis to watch against ravâ—ning Wolves or did they not this in their special charges As if a Judicature of civil Watchmen a Colledge of Physicians were not both alone and in their respective Assemblies to watch over the City and the sick Mr. H. When Churches were complâ—ted with all officers that then ordination was acted by a Colledge of Pastors there is nothing in the Text saith any such thing Ans. The homogeneal Church yet wanting officers saith Mr. H. is complete to create and call its officers and aâ— Independent in an Island without officers and hath that power and no word of precept or promise or any such practice for such a Church creating their officers Paul should have bid them use their power of ordaining as the twelve Apostles Act. 6. hids them use their power of chusing And Paul should not have charged Timothy to usurp ordaining of officers where there was a Church in an orderly way being the first formal subject of the Keyes to do it And Mr. R. gives instances where the Elders are commanded to ordain and lay on hands and sayes this command or practice is not to be found in the Word in the hands of the people My fourth Argument stands because every twelve in a family is an homogeneous Church True saith Mr. H. but they watch one over another by family rules Ans. That is a begging of the question for a family combination hath all the essentials of a Church combination if the Church be taken for an homogeneal association and wanteth only the name for they cannot watch over one another as touching seals and no more can any homogeneous Church of divers families so watch over one another CHAP. VIII Whether Covenant-right to Baptisme be derived from the nearest Parents only or from the remoter the Grand-Fathers MR. H. It belongs not to any â—…d â—â—ssors either nearer or further off removed it is from the next Parents 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and firstly to give Covenant right of Baptisme to their Child 〈◊〉 when I say Predâ—â—â—ssors near eâ—…r further off I include and comprohend all beside the next parent Now covenant right agrees not to all other foâ— them nor can the Pâ—… 〈◊〉 this 〈◊〉 out the next parent in Church covenant who is the adequateâ—â—â—sâ— of deriving these
It s true they may say he plays the Tyrant in that but yet God hath given him the onely supreme power both to inquire saith Mr. H. and judge of Professions and Religions which is true and ought to be maintained which is false and ought to be rejected And if so the many godly who fled from Old England to New England because of Prelatical Tyranny of conscience did believe that the late King Charles had power as a King to judge the Service book and Ceremonies imposed upon the godly in England yea and upon Scotland also was the onely true Religion and had power given him of God as supreme Magistrate to command all the three Kingdoms to be of the Kings Religion or then let them all be banished out of his Dominions But is not this to make the King a Pope and the onely carver and Lord of the Faith and Religion of his Subjects and so the King by his Office is the Messenger of the Lord of Hosts and a Royal Prophetical Teacher who watches for the souls of all his people What Scripture puts the King in such an Office 2. Did not the godly and sound condemn such an Headship in the Oath of Supremacy and in the Kings Proclamation in which he as King commands all to receive such a Religion as he thinks fit even the substantials of the Mass and no Prayers but book-prayers the other Prayers being fancies And this command is equal to a pastoral or Synodical Decree 1. Because it comes from the King having no act of the Church but onely having taken the counsel of his Clergie and so by civil power peculiar to his power Royal and place as Mr. H. speaks p. 56. 2. Because its the onely form of worship he thinks fit 3. Because he commands it to all Ecclesiastick persons Arch-bishops Bishops c. as the onely Spiritual Pastor of Pastors on earth Hence if Christ hath given such power it s not lawful without breach of the fifth Command to embrace or profess any Religion in a Christian Kingdom except it be first instamped by or with the Authority of the King the Head as the Chaplain calls him of the Churches by his Royal Authority Yea our Book of Canons say that Christian Kings now have the same power in causes Ecclesiastical that the godly Kings among the Iews had And are they not then Prophets by office and may write Canonick Scripture as David and Solomon did and so we must not without Rebellion profess the Faith or the Christian Religion but when and where such as the King commands us contrary to Mat. 10. 32. or we are to confess Christ before men but not except the King teach and command a confession and such a confessor 3. Paul must have told us Eph 4. 11 12. of the King as well as of the Apostle given to edifie the Body and gather the Church if so be that he is the onely supreme Iudge of true and false Religions And he must be some spiritual officer and one who chooseth a God and a Religion to his Subjects and he must be â—he holiest Subject who can say The Kings God is my God When I read this I was sad to see Mr. Tho Hooker speak and write like the Royalist Mr. Rich. Hooker 4. The Magistrate supreme and inferiour except Mr. H. be an Erastian is a member of the Church and under the Scepter of Christ in the preached Gospel and to be edified by the Word Seals Rebukes and Censures for otherwise He that despiseth you despiseth me and if he hear not the Church let him be as a heathen and Faith comes by hearing must suffer a strange exception in the person of the King he may despise pastors and the Church without guiltiness for he is above the pastors and carves their Religion and prescribes as our cited Proclamation saith the causes why Bishops should excommunicate and censure to wit if they refuse the Kings Religion and Mr. H. warrants him by a power peculiar and supreme so to do 5. We reade not that the Kings of Israel and Iudah prescibed what was true and false Religion but were subject to the Priests and Prophets who spake the word of the Lord and the Prophets rebuked Kings as Ieroboam and others for intruding themselves in that office Moses Samuel David Solomon were Prophets 2 Chron. 36. 16. Isa. 50. 19. 6. The Magistrate is the Minister of God and bears the Sword to take order with evil doers and is Custos vindex utriusque tabulae and the Religion is supposed to be before the Ruler 7. It s somewhat heathenish like Numa Lycurgus who to procure obedience and authority to themselves gave out that they prescribed what Religion was true and that they conversed much with God 8. All questions and controversies of Religion in the Nation must be determined all cases of conscience resolved by this Pope who onely can determine what is true and what is false Religion and the King must be the Oracle and Priest with whom onely the Urim and the Thummim must be 9. All fallings against Religion must be Treason against the King whereas Kings and people are rebuked because they hearkened not to the voice of the Prophets not because disobedient to the word of the Lord in the mouth of the King Either this is to take both the Swords from the Pope and to give them to the King or it is nothing for without controversie the King bears the Sword to take vengeance of him that doth evil Rom. 13. 4. 1 Pet. 2. 14. and whosoever determineth by his supreme power what is true and false Religion to all the Subjects must bear the other Sword 10. M. H. makes out his Assertion thus Kings could not provide for their Subjects to live in godliness and honesty except they had power to inquire and judge of true and false Religions Now this is spoken of Nero and of heathen Kings 1 Tim. 2. 1 2. But out of doubt God never made heathens that are enemies to true Religion supreme determiners of true and false Religion And if this agree to Rulers as Rulers as M. H. saith it is peculiar to their power and place then all Rulers Heathen Christian high and low sound in the faith and corrupt and heretical should be carvers of so many sundry Gods and Religions But the next Reason is ill and worse if because the King is a Nurse-father to the Church he must be father and a begetter both of Religion and of the Church because he protects and defends the true Church then true Religion must be before him As also when Mr. H. saith that the Prince is a Nurse father to the Church he means the Independent Church onely so that he owes no protection to Presbyterians nor justice to them And if the Nurse-fathers care be that there should be a right opinion and worship openly professed within his Territories the Magistrate is to do this no other wayes but
hearing 2. saying Men and brethren what shall we doe 3. joyning in ordinances with the Apostles 4. Some expressing of joy in hearing the word possibly in their countenance The rest were reall 1. They were pricked in heart not visibly but really so Calvin Bezâ— Gualther Sarcerius Brentius Bullingerus as also before them Chrysostome Hieronymus Cyrillus Hierosolomytanus this cannot but be reall 2 They were added unto the Church M. H. granteth that the holy Ghost in Luke spoke this Now the Apostles acting as ordinary Pastors in a fallible way as our brethren say they acted here could not see this internall adding made by the Lord ver 47. The Lord added to the Church c. he added not Ananias and Saphira thus and their receiving the word with gladnesse of heart ver 47. must be reall and internall gladnesse of heart as their eating of bread with gladnesse and singlenesse of heart all which as they were not visible to the Apostles so being reall must be ascribed by an ordinary figure to the greatest part Now that Ananias and Saphira were such reall members pricked in heart or received the word with joy Luke sayeth not But M. H sayeth it without warrant of the word CHAP. XV. Other arguments of M. H. and his answers are considered as of the draw-net Mr. H. pag. 28 29. to arg 2. If the visible Church be a draw-net where are fish and filth a house where are vessels of gold and baser vessels of wood and brasse then a rightly constituted Church there may be where are believers and hypocrites Ans. The argument is wholly yeilded and the cause not touched much lesse concluded as may appeare by the state of the question in a right meaning Ans. 1. This argument may be wholely yielded but is not my argument I referre the Reader to the place of my book where this is first propounded The argument is much mistaken and is not drawen from visible Churches as they are de facto and through abuse though I speak to that also which I am willing to dispute with any who will defend M. H. in his survey My argument is from visible Churches as they were at first planted and constituted lawfully and to all that read with any considerable attention planted according not to the permissive decree of God according to which I tell M. Barrow many hypocrites are de facto in the visible Church lawfully constitute but according to the revealed will of precept Hence take the argument according to my mind if the visible kingdome and Church of Christ at both its first planting in fieri and it s after constitution in facto esse consist not according to the decree but even according to the revealed and approving and commanding will of God of good fish and of bad and filth and of vessels of honour and of dishonour then the visible Church consisteth not of such Saints only as must be reall converts in the judgement of charity But the former is true M. H. might have known that I of purpose closed up this mouse-hole non semel not once but twenty times the proposition is from the scope of the Parable which as worthy Calvin sayeth that nikil novum c. that our Saviour teacheth no new thing but by a new similitude the same which he taught in the parable of the tares only as Mr. Dickson hath judiciously observed That hence the visible Church in the way of gathering members and manner of constitution thereof is like a draw-net taking in a I who professe subjection to Christ in his ordinances good and bad To which as for the purpose it is also most false that the Lord tacitly commands such Pastors as cast out the net of the preached Gospell to fish no souls in a Pastorall Church-way but these who in their judgement of charity savour of being with Iesus as sayeth M. H. survey par 1. c. 2. pag. 14 15 and so are good fish and reall converts Whereas the Lord commands Pastors not to look whether they be converted or not in their judgement leave that to God and call in as many as ye find Matth. 22. 9. Luk. 14. 17 18 23. Call in fools and simple ones Prov. 9. 4. which indeed to M. Hooker is a sinne and a prophaning of the holy things of God O saith M. H. Beware ye Pastorally call any or preach to any Pastorally but such as in charity you judge converts and these only and none other sayeth M. Lâ—ckyer As for the Parable of the tares Let them grow untill harvest Parâ—us most judiciously he forbids not to use discipline simply but use it not so with such rigor or imprudently when the wheat is in hazard to be plucked up but use it not when the wheat may be hurted and rooted out 2. The conceit of degenerated members to be tolerated for a while will not help the matter for the draw-net of the preached Gospel is to be cast out at the first admission of members before the members be degenerated 3. How shall our brethren make it out that the bad noteth the latent hypocrites only that are not seen because they are under the water but the bad noteth aswell the open hypocrites and so did the Donatists answer Augustine as our brethren doe but Augustine replyed that the Church is the barne-floore where the wheat is hid and the chaffe seen But sure the preachers are not to be led by their own judgement who are really good or really non converts and bad for it is the command of Christ that the bad that is the non-converted be brought in that they may be converted and keeped in except the whole lump be in danger to be infected that they may be made good Mr. H. p. 29. The like may be said to the man who came without the wedding garment he carried it so cunningly that none perceived it but the Master Ans. Mr. H. must say The servants judged him once to have a wedding garment else they should not have invited him to come Saith the Text that or Mr. H. onely If the former then they sin who invite and call externally any but such as have a wedding garment So the Donatists said 2. Mr. H. contradicts his own Book of Discipline expresly The rest of my arguments are above vindicated Mr. H. p. 31. The examples of Solomon tolerating Idolatry of Asa breaking out into persecution hurt Mr. R. cause for then the openly scandalous may be received in Ans. These Kings obstinately persisting in such evils are neither to be admitted nor kept in how far Solomon strayed is hard to determine Amesius after P. Martyr teacheth That he neither worshipped Images nor believed them to be God nor brought them to the Temple Augustine excuseth him that he fell as Adam to please his wives Asa at his worst was fitter to be admitted a Member than Magus at his best nor can the time