from among vs whom wee call Brownists contrarie minded who both reiect the aforesaid doctrine as erronious and condemne our Parish assemblies for false Churches it remaineth we heare what they likewise teach concerning the Church and their Arguments whereby they would proue our Church to be a false Church that so wee may more clearely see on which side the truth is whereby the louers of the Truth shall be preserued from error and Wisdome iustified of her children THE SECOND BOOKE CHAP. I. A confutation of H. BARROW his description of a true visible Church WEE haue spoken in the former Chapter of the first vse wee make of the aforesaid Doctrine of the visible Church And there we haue seene how fitly it seemeth to iustifie the Church of England and to proue her to be a true Church now by it wee will also conuince the Brownists false doctrine of the visible Church And that shall be the second and lâ—st vse of the Doctrine aforesaid For the better vnderstanding of the Brownists doctrine concerning the true visible Church let vs heare how it is described by them It is saith BARROW a company and fellowship of faithfull and holy people gathered in the name of Christ Iesus A true description of the visible Church pag. 1. their only King Priest Prophet worshipping him aright being peaceably quietly gouerned by his officers lawes keeping the vnity of faith in the bond of peace and loue vnfained Generalâ—y coÌ„cerning this description I affirme that a Apology 44. Counterp 115. Princ. Infer 8. 10. as al the rest of the descriptions or definitions of the visible Church which they do giue so this likewise is rather a description of the inuisible Church militant then of the visible That which is hâ—ere set downe is true onely of the Elect and cannot properly and truely bee spoken of any Reprobate whereof a true visible Church may in part consist as well of the Elect for as the Elect only are faithfull and holy indeed and effectually called so Christ Iesus is their onely b Though Christ Iesus be in diuers respects King of the visible Church yet he is not King Priest Prophet of the visible but only of the inuisible Church hee cannot be said to be Priest of the visible Church but with relation had to them that be of the inuisible Church King Priest and Prophet they alone doe worshippe him aright are gouerned by his lawes keepe the vnity of faith in the bond of peace and loue vnfained But let vs brifely consider of the seuerall parts of this description That your meaning is the visible Church consisteth only of faithfull holy persons it is hereafter made manifest and appeareth also by the last page of H. Barrow his book intituled A true description of the visible Church where hee saith that into the visible Church there entereth no vncleane thing or person but all such are without how true this Doctrine is wee shall anon heare as also of the gathering heere spoken of And that the visible Church and consequently all the members thereof haue not Christ Iesus to be their King Priest and Prophet in the end of this booke it is made manifest Omitting therefore these things wee will come to that which in the description followeth In it you adde that the visible Church consisteth of a Company that worship Christ aright and to proue this you send vs to three places of Scripture the two first viz. Exod. 20.7.8 Leuit. 10.5 speake neuer a word for you The last and onely testimony you haue is Ioh. 4.23 where Iesus saith That the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and truth and that the Father requireth such to worship him And hereof our Lord rendereth a reason in the words next following saying God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and truth which in effect is this that God being of a spirituall nature requireth a spirituall seruice agreeable to his nature Of a company of such kind of worshippers say you doth the visible Church consist But how can this possibly be true seeing Christ Iesus speaking to some of the visible Church Matth. 15.7 saith thus O Hypocrites Esaias prophecied well of you saying this people draweth neere vnto me with their mouth and honoureth me with their lips but their heart is farre from mee but in vaine doe they worship me These were no true worshippers worshipping God in Spirit and truth but only outwardly and Hypocritically whereupon Iesus calleth them Hypocrites and yet were these worshippers members of the visible Church And whereas of the visible Church the greatest part are Hypocrites or hypocriticall worshâ—ppers by this description and doctrine of yours there can be no Hipocrites in it for you teach that the visible Church is a company that worship God in Spirit and truth but no Hypocrites worshippe God in Spirit and truth therefore by your doctrine no Hypocrites are of or in the visible Church That no hypocrites doe worship God in spirit and truth which resteth only to be proued it is hereby manifest First because they doe not worship God with a true and sincere affection of the heart Secondly Because this worshipping of God in spirit and truth is that worship which God requireth to be performed to him by men accepteth of and is well pleased with but the worship of hypocrites God forbiddeth reiecteth and abhorreth Hypocrites therefore doe not worship God in spirit and truth Thirdly As many as thus worship God in this world Heb. 11.6 Psal 19.11 he will honor in the world to come and for their poore seruice done to him on earth he will aboundantly reward them in heauen now woe be to Hypocrites saith Christ And againe giue him his portion with Hypocrites This is the hypocrites reward Where you say that the visible Church is a company peaceably and quietly gouerned by Christ's officers and lawes considering the greatest part of the visible Church are reprobates and so rebels against Christ taking part with Satan against him how can this be truely said of the visible Church and consequently of all the members thereof Cain Ismael Esau Saul Absolom the Scribes and Pharisies were all of the visible Church These and thousands more such in the Church haue beene so farre from being quietly gouerned by Christs lawes that with them in the second Psalme they haue said Verse 3. Let vs breake their bonds and cast their cords from vs. The visible Church therefore is not a company of such loyall and obedient subiects to Christ as these men affirme How peaceably and quietly was Saul gouerned by the lawes of God and Church officers then when he caused the Priests of the Lord to be slaine and eagerly persecuted Dauid thirsting after his bloud and that all his life time The same may be said of Cain killing Abel of Ismael mocking or as the Apostle saith persecuting Isaak of Absalom
that which you doe from hence vsually collect and vrge against vs. CHAP. II. A confutation of another description of the true visible Church giuen by the Brownists Where much is said concerning the first gathering of a Church and commixture of good and bad in the Church BVt omitting this description of H. Barrowes wee will proceed to another of theirs laid downe in their Apologie Apologie 44. It is say they a company of people called and seperated from the world by the word of God and ioyned together by voluntary profession of the faith of Christ in the fellowship of the Gospell If this be a true description then whosoeuer is not called and seperated from the world by the word of God c. is not a member of the visible Church for of such a company so called and qualified it doth consist as you affirme But some not called and seperated from the world c. haue bin are and shall be of the vâ—sible Church as is euident by that which followeth this therfore is not a true description of the visible Church It is a company of people say you called by the word of God whereby you meane that by the power and force of the Word only in the Ministery and preaching therof men are brought to be of this societie that is of the visible Church and not by the call perswasion or commandement of the Magistrate or any mortall man And this you put downe in your description that thereby you might proue our Parish assemblies to bee no true but false visible Churches because in the beginning of Queene Elizabeths raigne the people then liuing were not called by the Word and gathered by the preaching thereof but all brought in at once by her commandement and proclamation Hereupon it is that in the former description of the visible Church they say It is a company gathered in the name of Christ Iesus And Master Iohnson applying this to vs saith We were neuer rightly gathered together according to Gods ordinance Defence of the Churches and Minist of Eng. 86. that is as heere he speaketh not called by the word of God meaning the preaching thereof as appeareth by his quotations of Scripture in the margent We answere If we speake of a Church when it is first planted I meane of a Nation when first it commeth to embrace and professe the Gospell and true Religion the people of such a Nation for a great part there of are called by the word of God before they come to be a visible Church By the power and truth of the Word and diuine maiestie shining euery where therein the children of men be brought to forsake their false Religion and worship and to ioyne together in the profession of true Religion whereby they become a visible Church And this is confirmed throughout the whole story of the Acts of the Apostles both in the conuersion of the Iewes or gathering visible Churches of them set downe in the nine first Chapters and likewise of the gentiles continuing from the beginning of the tenth Chapter to the latter end of that booke In the second of the Acts where mention is made of a great increase or addition to the visible Church that before that time was among the Iewes of about three thousand soules and in the fourth of the Acts of a further increase to about fiue thousand Act. 2.14 and 4.4 in both these places the meanes is specified whereby this was brought to passe and that is said to be the hearing and and receiuing of the word of God preached by Peter and other of the Apostles In the eight chapter of the Actes wee reade of a Church gathered in the Citie of Samaria by Philip his preaching Christ vnto them and in the eleuenth Chapter of the Acts of a great Church gathered by the preaching of certaine Prophets and Euangelists in Antiochia in Syria In a word where in the Acts we reade of the conuersion of a people to God as in Antiochia a Citie of Pisidia in Iconium Listra Derbe Philippi Thessalonica Berea Athens Corinthus and Rome in the same places we heare that they were called and the said visible Churches gathered by the preaching of the word But mark all these Churches were now first planted and these people newly conuerted from Iudaisme or Gentilisme that is eyther from the Iewish Religion or false Religion of the Gentiles to the Christian Religion In such a case to the gathering and beâ—ng of a Church the preaching of the Word is absolutely necessary so as without it a company of people cannot bee brought to be a Church But if we speake of a Church established or of a Country where for some time true Religion hath beene professed and God truly worshipped though sometimes interrupted broken off and discontinued which is our case then this holdeth not As vnder the Law both Iewes and Gentiles professing the Iewish religion by Circumcision so by Baptisme Christians vnder the Gospell are incorporated into the visible Church and made members thereof Are not the children of the faithfull by Baptisme receiued into the visible Church and thereby made members thereof And not by the call of the word the sound whereof many of them do not heare and if they doe they cannot vnderstand it And what letteth why some of these when they bee growen men may not thorough hypocrisie continue in the Church though in the hardnes of their hearts they neuer were affected and touched with the word many such hypocrites and hard-hearted men dead in their sinnes and trespasses and that haue consciences seared with a hot Iron haue euer beene are and shall be in the Church who neuer by the call of the word and power thereof would haue become members of the Church nor haue felt any touch that way but onely because they were borne and brought vp in the Church and not cast out either through the want of due execution of discipline or else through their deepe dissimulation and hypocrisie they being like painted tombes which appeare beautifull outward but are within full of dead mens bones and all filthinesse Surely it is not to be thought that Cain Ismael Esau with others that many of the fatte Bulls of Basan that many of those who in Israel killed the Prophets and stoned them which were sent vnto them that many of the Scribes and Pharisies were affected with the Word or so much as tasted of the power and sweetnes thereof and yet were they all of the visible Church How were these then called by the word of God Againe that without this call by the word men may come to be of the visible Church it is yet more euident by the scripture In the twelfth chapter of Exodus where mention is made of the departure of the Children of Israel out of Egypt it is said That a great multitude of sundry sorts of all people went out with them Verse 38. now all or most of these we may assure
therefore the world should hate them With this speech of Christ agreeth that of Peter It seemeth to them strange 1. Pet. 4.4 that ye runne not with them to the same excesse of ryot therefore speake they euill of you Suppose then that Iesus did not speake here onely of the Apostles nor yet solely of the Elect but that his speech was more generall and reached euent to the visible Church yet would not this testimonie proue that for which it is by you produced to wit that a visible Church is a company not mixed with but separated from the open wicked of the world Much lesse then vnderstanding this Scripture aright and as is before expounded Thus is to set the holy Scriptures not on the tenters which is euill but on the racke which is farre worse No lesse faultie are you in alledging to this purpose the 20. verse of this said 17. Chapter I pray not for these alone but also for them which shall beleeue in me through their word Where Iesus speaketh of and prayeth for the Elect onely and inuisisible Church militant and not for the visible Church But grant it were spoken and meant of the Church visible yet would it not serue to proue that for which it is by you alledged In like manner you here peruert Act. 19.9 Rom. 1.6.7 10.14 15 17. Ezek. 36.38 which for breuitie I passe by contenting my selfe to haue giuen you and the Reader a taste onely of your abuse of Scripture And here marke I beseech thee Christian Reader and forget not that this dâ—ctrine of these men is as contrarie to the Scriptures as darknesse is to light They teach you see that a true Church is a company of people separated from the world that is a separated company of righteous or godly men from all open vngodly or wicked and cannot consist of these two sorts or kindes of men of godly and vngodly good and bad holy and prophane such a mixt and confused company cannot be say they a true visible Church This mixture they condemne and vs for teaching it and euery where in their bookes cry out against it with open mouth Saying it is a a Confession of Faith 6.10.11 confused order and such societie a confused and mixed people that b Aâ—swere to M. Stone 6. lye scattered in the dust mixed with the prophane without seperation and it is an Antichristian confusion And tell vs that a true visible Church is an other manner of society That it is c A true desâ—ription of the visible Church pag. 1. a company of faithfull and holy people worshipping Christ aright gouerned by his lawes keeping the vnitie of Faith in the bond of Peace and loue vnfained Againe that it is a company of Conuerts of such as are d Apologie 37. already conuerted to God Moreouer that it is e Principles and inferences concerning vis Churches 7. a visible communion of Saints that is f Priâ—c and Ius 10. Iustification 105. of men seperated from all knowne sinne practising the whole will of God knowne growing in grace and knowledge and continuing to the end Because of this say they the visible Church is g Apologie 44. A true Description of the visible Church 1. confesâ—ion Faith 6. called a Church of Saints a Kingdome of Priests a Royall Priesthood a chosen Generation and an holy Nation And to make vp the full measure of their errour in this particular they assure vs if wee will bee so mad as beleeue them that a true visible Church hath in it onely such as if none other affirming that h A true Description of the visible Church pag. vlt. Communion of Saints into it entreth no vncleane thing neither whosoeuer worketh abominations and lyes but they which are written in the Lambes Booke of Life But without this Church are Dogges and Enchanters and Whoremâ—ngers and Idolaters and whatsoeuer loueth and maketh lyes as if none such were within the church And to put this doctrine of theirs out of all doubt and controuersie i Illud ostendere tentauerunt Donatistae â—rolatis multis testimoniis diuâ—narum Scripturarum quod Ecclesia Dei non cum mâ—loâ—um hominum commiss one futura praed cta sit August Tom. 7. collat cum Donatistis Defence of the Churches and Ministers of England 7. Counterpois 14. and 23. they alleadge for proofe thereof all most infinite places of Scripture Thus we see summarily what these men do held and teach concerning the subiect or matter of the visible Church and this part of their description thereof euen the same with the Donatists And applying this doctrine vnto vs they affirme that the Church of England is a false Church and our parish assemblies false visible Churches because they are not separated from the prophane of the land but remaine still in confused assemblies Let vs now heare what God teacheth vs in his word Certainely that which is directly contrary vnto this In the holy Scriptures wee learne that as in the barne-floore there is Chaffe mingled with Corne Mat 3.12 13.25.47 and in the field Tares growing together with Wheate and in the draw-net cast into the Sea things gathered of all kindes and as in a great house there are not onely vessels of golde and siluer but also of wood and earth some for honour and some for dishonour 2. Tim. 2.20 So in the visible Church there are men of all kindes Hypocrites and sincere good and bad holy and prophane faithfull and vnbeleeuers Nay by the Scriptures it is manifest By vnbeleeuers I meane men void of true Faiâ—h that the greater part of the visible Church are Reprobates Hypocrites vngodly men prophane walking after their owne lusts as by that which followeth doth appeare In the 32. of Numbers of the Church and people of God Moses saith that they were a company of sinfull men Verse 14 and behold yee are risen vp in your fathers stead as an increase of sinfull men still to augment the fierce wrath of the Lord toward Israel and in the 5. of Deut. Ye haue beene rebellioas vnto the Lord since the day that I knew you In the first of the Prouerbs wee haue wisedome Verse 24. that is Christ Iesus the wisedome of the Father speaking after this manner I haue called meaning by his seruants in the Ministerie and yee refused I haue stretched out mine hand and none would regard But yee haue despised all my counsell and would none of my correction And a little after they hated knowledge and did not chuse the feare of the Lord. They would none of my counsell but despised all my correction These contemners were prophane and vngodly persons and yet were they of the visible Church because they were within the sound of wisedomes voyce and call Yea marke further how some times almost all of the visible Church are despisers of the Ministerie and word of God and therefore prophane and godlesse For it is not said
there are none of the diuels children for the diuell raigneth in all his children But you say in the visible Church there bee none in whom the Prince of this world the deuill raigneth for it is a company seperated from all such Therefore in the visible Church there are no children of the diuel and so by consequent are all the children of God by faith in Iesus Christ But these things you knowe and acknowledge to be false that therefore from whence they are inferred which all of you stiffely hold and maintaine to wit that the visible Church is a company of people seperated from the world is likewise false This generaall doctrine of theirs he thus applieth to vs. Answere to a censorious Epistle pag. 5. Which seperation the church of England neither hath made nor doeth make but stands actually one with all that part of the world within the kingdome without seperation for which cause amongst others we haue chosen by the grace of God rather to seperate our selues to the Lord from it then with it from him in the visible constitution of it Answere It is true we neither haue made nor goe about to make a seperation from the men of this world and betwixt them whom Christ by his spirit ruleth and them in whom the Prince of this world raigneth This passeth our skill and power and is such as is vnpossible to be performed by vs. Our Lord Iesus onely can and will doe this by the Angels in the day of his glorious comming to iudgement And where you say that wee stand actually one with all that part of the world within the kingdome it is false and slanderous For we onely stand actually one with all those in the kingdome that professe the same religion with vs which the Pap among vs who be not a few with whatsoeuer other hereticks or schismatiks do not except it be in hypocrisie which we cannot hinder but must leane to God therfore I say we stand not actually one with all in the kingdome except there be in our land no Papists no Heretickes or Schismaticks If you obiect heere our Church Papists and say that we receiue Papists into our Church and communion with vs. It is answered already and I adde They professe to be of the same Christian Religion with vs and to forsake poperie in comming to our publike assembles and pertaking with vs there in the holy things of God If they doe this hypocritically what is that to vs But especially marke that this is one cause of their seperation yea a principall cause thereof as he saith in another place In these two respects principally Answere to a censorious Epistle pag. â— your Babilonish confusion of all sorts of people in the body of your Church without seperation and your Babilonish bondage vnder your lords the prelates we account you Babylon and flee from you And speaking of this want of seperation Ibid. 43. and confusion else where he hath these words It is not by our sequestration but by your confusion that Rome and hell gaines Your odious commixture of all sorts of people in the body of your Church in whose lap the vilest miscreants are dandled sucking her breasts as her naturall children is that aduantageth hell Wee see how this man condemneth the mixture of good and bad godly and vngodly in the Church calling it an odious commixture confusion and Babilonish confusion that principally for this and one other cause they account vs Babylon and flye from vs. And yet hath this commixture of all sorts of people beene euer in the Church as hath beene manifested out of the sacred Scripture What age then could these men haue liued in wherein they might not for this cause as iustly haue seperated from the Church and haue accounted it likewise Babylon It cannot be denied but that in Sauls raigne there were most vile men dandled as you tearme it in the lap of the Church considering he himselfe the head of that people was so vile Nay by the booke of the Psalmes it is euident that in Dauids time there were store of leawde and vile men in the Church Psal 12. 69. And so were there in the dayes of Isaiah Ieremiah and other of the Prophets Yea what say you M. Robinson to the age wherein Christ Iesus liued and his Apostles The Scribes and Pharisees then were most vile miscreants and they being principâ—l members in the Church as the eyes re in the body it must bee confessed that they did sit in the lappe of the Church and sucked her breasts as if they had beene her naturall children No lesse vile were those that had crept into the church of whom Iude speaketh Yet notwithstanding this commixture and Babilonish confusion as you call it did neither the Prophets nor Iesus nor his Apostles seperate from the Church but had religious communion with this confused society consisting of all sorts of people The commixture then in our Church you speake of is no iust cause of seperation and why you should account vs Babylon But râ—turnâ— we to M. Robison Ibid. 4. The seperation wee haue made in respect of our knowledge and obedience is indeede late and newe yet is it in the nature and causes thereof as auncient as the Gospel which was first founded in the enmitie which God himselfe put betwixt the seede of the woman and the seed of the serpent Gâ—n 3.15 Which enmitie hath not onely ben successiuely continued but also visibly manifested by the actuall seperation of all true churches from the world in their collection and constitution before the Lawe vnder the Lawe and vnder the Gospell Gen. 4.13.14.16 6.1 2. 7.1.7 with 1. Pet. 3 20.21 12. Leu 20.24.26 Neh. 9.2 Ioh. 17.14.16 Act. 2.40 19.9 1. Cor. 6.17 Aâ—swere If we speake of practise among vs your seperation is as auncient as Browne who first caused or at least greatly furthered that seperation and schisme from our Church where vpon you are called Brownists But if you speake of the doctrine August Tom. 7 contra Cresco Gram. lib. 2. cap. 34. then is it as auncient as Donatus after whom some were called Donatists or rather as some schismaticks in Cyprians time of whom Austen writing against the Donatists maketh mention That the visible Church is not a mixt company consisting of good and bad but is a company seperated from the world that is from the men of the world or a seperated company of righteous men which all of you doe hold this I say is neither founded of the Lawe nor Gospell nor any part of Gods word but in the bottomles pit by the diuell the father of lyes I meane of all lying and false doctrines and was long since publ shed August Tom. 7 Collâ—tiâ—nâ—bus cum Donatists and contended for by the former heretickes specially the Donatists who for this cause seperated from the Church of God in their times and is now after many hundred
in the visible Church are members of it vntill by excommunication they bee cut of But by your owne confession wicked men are in the visible Church therefore wicked men are members of it Which if it bee true all your doctrine almost of the visible Church is false But to put an end to this point and part of your description By the premises it is plaine that a true visible Church is not seperated from the world that is a company of righteous and godly men onely seperated from the open wicked of the world For if a visible Church be a mixt company of good and bad godly and vngodly for which cause it is compared to a barne floore to a field and to a draw-net as hath been shewed out of the holy Scriptures againe if from time to time in the ages precedent both vnder the Law and Gospell there haue beene and remained in the true visible Church vvicked yea many wicked and open wicked as hath likewise been made manifest by the Scriptures how can it possible be true which you affirme That a visible Church is a seperated companie of righteous men not mixed with but seperated from the wicked of the world If this doctrine of yours be true the one of these doe necessarily follow either the former persons of whom I haue spoken so much Ismael Esau Doeg Saul Absalom the Scribes and Pharises were not openly wicked and men of this world or not in the Church but without or else that the Church wherein they in thâ—ir time liued was not a true but a false Church The premises considered it is very fondly done of you so often to obiect against vs the mixture of good and bad in our Church Calling it Cofusion Babel Babilonish confusion and our Churches because of it Babylon and a meere madnesse for this cause to seperate from our Church And thus much concerning this clause in your description seperated from the world The rest of your description I omit as not greatly to bee found fault with though something might bee said against it For where you say It is a company ioyned together by voluntarie profession you should raâ—her haue said ioyning together c. Wee are ioyned and knit together by loue and doe ioyne and agree in the same profession And where you require a voluntarie profession of the faith of Christ and tels vs elsewhere that a true Church consisteth of a voluntary people and that ours are confused and compelled and so a false church You must know that a man may bee of the visible Church albeit his profession be not voluntarie as hath been declared before Neither is that so fit you adde of the Faith of Christ as if you had said of the true Religion The Papists professe the faith of Christ and so doe the Anabaptists Families with sundry others and yet are they false Churches But whatsoeuer societie professeth true Religion is a true church To conclude Apology 44. Confession of Faith 11. Counterp 133. this I say that vnderstanding these words seperated from the world as Christ meaneth Ioh. 17.14.16 and 15.19 Which testimonies you here in your confession of faith and in the Counterpoyson alledge for the proofe of this and therefore must so vnderstand them without manifest peruerting of the said Scriptures then is this a description rather of the militant Church or those of the inuisible Church that are effectually called then of the visible Church CHAP. III. Of the matter and forme of the visible Church AS these men doe greatly erre in their description of the visible Church so doe they likewise in other points touching the same and namely about the matter and forme thereof Iustification 88. 82. The constitution of the Church saith M. Robinson is the orderly collection and coniunction of the Saints into and in the couenant of the new Testament wherein the Saints are the matter the couenant the forme from which two concurring the Church ariseth and is by them constituted And in another place deliuering the very same with this hee addeth And this is that which giues true being of a Church and nothing else Because of this let vs so much the more carefully seeke out the true matter aâ—d forme of the visible Church and remember that if the Separists mistake the matter and forme of the visible Church as the trueth is they doe they cannot iudge aright of the Church and therefore their iudgement and account of our Church is to be despised We hold as hath already beene saide men not Angels or any other creatures but a company of men to be the matter of the visible Church and the profession of true Religion to be the forme So that wheresoeuer there is a company of men ioyning together in the profession of true Religion the same is and may truely be called a visible Church The Seperators teach otherwise and first that Saints are the matter of the visible Church forgetting that a company of Saints are a Church by the Testimony of the holy Ghost as before hath beene shewed in the third Chapter of the first booke and therefore such a societie containeth in it as well the forme as the matter without both which nothing can be But we must know that howsoeuer the Separists euen all of them agree in this That Saints are the matter of the visible Church yet notwithstanding they disagree at least in appearance about the matter because they differ about these Saints who Instif 105. principles and Inferenâ—es 10. M. Smith in his Answere to M. Beâ—n rd 27 28. Separatists Schisme 83. Counterp 174. and what they be Saints say some of them are a people forsaking all knowne sinne doing all the knowne will of God growing in grace and continuing to the ende and these say M. Smith and M. Robinson are the onely matter of the visible Church This being conuinced by some of our side M. Ainsworth answereth thus This position meaning the aforesaide description of Saints and that such are the matter of the visi church I deny and also disclaime the errors which be gathered from it and therefore will spend no time in answering it but referre M. Bernard to them that haue so spoken or written if any be This we hold and let vs see what M. Bernard can say against it That Saints by calling are the onely matter of a true visible church For confutation of this that M. Ainsworth and the more auncient of this schisme doe maintaine that little which hath beene saide may suffice and the rather because but a litle before M. Ainsworth accordeth with vs and is as contrary to himselfe herein as we be Counterp 170. To the constitution of a Church saith he there belong 1. A people as the matter whereof and 2. A calling gathering and vniting together as the forme whereof the Church consisteth Where obserue how he contradicteth himselfe 1. Hee expressely affirmeth that a people which is the same that wee teach
in your schisme and errours and hearken to the counsell of Salomon Pro. 19.27 My sonne heare no more the instruction that causeth to erre from the words of knowledge Goe not I beseech you in the name of Iesus one step more forward in the way you are in For I call heauen and earth to record that it leades to destruction And why will ye die O ye children of men It is a fearefull thing to fall into the hands of the liuing God for our God is a consuming fire I know you perswade your selues of better things and such as accoÌ„pany saluation You think that the way you now are in is the only way to life But what if you mistake it Christ telleth vs that many shall seeke to enter in at the straight gate Luk. 13.24 and shall not bee able Which cannot be vnderstood of men minding earthly things whether it be their profits or pleasures For they neither desire nor seeke after any such thing But of heretickes Schismatickes and sectaries You will say I know that you are no schismatickes because you separate from a false Church onely and ioyne to a true in deede if that which you teach of the visible Church were true then were all our congregations false Churches But heare and marke well what I say Such a visible Church as you require and pretend to be there is not in the world neither euer was You teach in this point that which is repugnant to the Scriptures and a thing vnpossible in it selfe to be Such a societie as you say a true visible Church is is not visible cannot possibly be seene or discerned But some of you will say are not our Ministers learned Yes That lets not but that both they may and indeede doe grossely erre in those things wherein they dissent from vs and from all the learned in the world Who knoweth not that among the Papists there be many of great learning and gifts which haue very great knowledge and skill in the arts in the languages are of excellent vtterance expert and ready in holy Scriptures can speake and write truely agreeing with the Scriptures of sundry of the secrets of the Kingdome of heauen as of God his nature persons attributes Of Christ Iesus his incarnation his birth life preachings sufferings comming to iudgement of the Resurrection of the life to come with many more of this kinde and yet notwithstanding in those points wherein they differ from the Church of England and all other true Churches they are blinde as beetles But you will obiect further that what you of the Separation hold is proued plentifully out of the word of God I acknowledge indeede that you abound and superabound in your allegations of Scripture Neuer any men contending for lyes did therein goe beyond you nor equall you neither If hereunto we adde their externall holinesse wee may safely say that in no faction or schisme that euer yet was in the world Satan did more transforme himselfe into an Angell of light then in this But what Their Scriptures being peruerted as the truth is and so tending to the destruction of the Reader all this is but sheepes clothing Mat 7.15 whereof Christ biddeth vs to beware Horrible and fearefull is your abusing and wresting of holy Scripture and to some incredible It had been well for you if you had been more sparing in your quotations then had yee lesse taken Gods Name in vaine who will not hold you guiltlesse for the same except ye repent And now dearely beloued behold Christ Iesus stands at the doore and knockes aloud tarrying and abiding there as one very desirous to come in and loth to be kept out He that hath the keyes of the house of Dauid who shutteth and no man openeth and openeth and no man shutteth open the doore of your soule that you may let Christ enter in And to that end open I humbly beseech you the eyes of your minde that you may bee able to discerne betweene things that differ and know truth from falsehood and reiecting and abhorring the one which is from the Diuell may imbrace the other which is from God And here my deare countrimen who lately are gone out from vs and become Anabaptists I beseech you consider of this one thing with me When you first separated from the Church of England did not you highly esteeme and reuerence the Church of Amsterdam euen as the deare spouse and body of Christ I meane the Brownists Church there Would not you then gladly haue had communion with them if possibly you could when you refused the same with vs Did not then all of you assure your owne soules that that way which then and still we call Brownisme was the onely way to life wherevpon in that way you would needs walke come on it what would imprisonment or banishment life or death Did not then some of the chiefe of you in my hearing magnifie M. Fr. Iohnson and their bookes specially the Apologie aboue all bookes next to the holy Bible And in all this you reioyced exceedingly How commeth it now to â—asse that so quickly not onely our Churches but the aforesaid Church at Amsterdam is likewise become an Harlot and Babylon That you abhorre now as much to haue religious communion with them as with vs How commeth this I say to passe but because that which the Apostle saith generally of all deceiuers is and must needs be in the particular true of you your selues being deceiuers That you wax worse and worse deceiuing and being more and more deceiued Thus haue I in few words by way of commination exhortation dehortation and supplication indeuoured to perswade you my brethren of the Separation speecially my countreymen who are lately entred into this way to renounce your errours and to breake off by repentance your grieuous sinne of separating and all the sinnes accompanying it If this I haue published preuaile not thus farre though not with all yet with some of you as to bring you to the sight and acknowledgement of your erronious doctrine concerning the visible Church and your peruerting of holy Scripture for confirmation thereof as my hope is it will I for my part doe confesse that I vtterly despayre of doing any good of you and say to you as I haue learned from the Apostle to speake in this case If any man be ignorant let him be ignorant I shall also hold it vaine to contend any further with you 1. Cor. 14.38 11.16 If any lust to be contentious saith Paul wee haue no such custome nor the Churches of God And so I end leauing the successe hereof both with you and others to the Lord whom in Iesus Christ I beseech to accept of this my poore and weake seruice and to grant that it may prosper to that end wherevnto by me his most vnworthy seruant it is intended euen to the glory of his great Name and edification of his Church Amen IOHN DAYRELL A
as in these things see no further are in the same estate with the Martyrs saued I meane as well as they if they walke according to their profession and that light is reuealed vnto them as they did Which being so the Assumption remaineth firme and sound That many of the Martyrs did in these things see as farre as many thousands of priuate men doe at this day nay a great deale further we cannot deny or doubt of if we compare the knowledge of priuate Christians for the greatest part in these things with the said Martyrs knowledge shining in sundry speeches of theirs recorded partly in the Acts of Monuments and partly in some of their owne bookes And yet did they not seperate from the publike assemblies being as corrupt as ours vntill Popery came in whereby the substance of diuine worship was corrupted and abominable idolatry erected And therefore men seeing and knowing many corruptions in our worship and Ministery and yet not seperating from that worship because of them may notwithstanding bee saued walking according to the rules of our Religion and in that way to saluation we professe Otherwise I am sure these men were not saued which I hope you will not affirme nay in effect you all teach the contrary in that you acknowledge them to be Martyrs and especially Master Francis Iohnson who almost euery where in the printed letters betweene Master Iacob and him calleth them Martyrs and pag. 75. and 77 holy Martyrs who could neither be Martyrs nor Saints if they were not saued and now in heauen Much more then may they among vs bee saued who walking in this way are ignorant of these corruptions though they doe not seperate and therefore men professing the same Religion and way to saluation with vs may be saued And whereas they acknowledging them that died in Queene Maries time to be Martyrs deny vs to be Christians so many as stand members of our Parish assemblies which generally we doe all and granting to them saluation deny it in a certaine respect to vs that these cannot stand together it shall appeare Master Iohnson in the defence of his second Exception against Master Iacob page 16. hath these words Defence of the Churches and Ministery of England 16. These men and assemblies thus holding professing and practising cannot in this estate be deemed true Christians and Churches Against this I argue thus If the late English Martyrs professed and practised the very same Religion wee now professe and yet were in that estate true Christians and so saued then men at this day professing and practising our Religion are true Christians and in the estate of saluation But the late English Martyrs professed and practised the very same Religion we now professe and in that estate were true Christians and so saued Therefore they who at this day professe and practise our Religion are true Christians and in state of saluation The Proposition must needs be true except wee will make God mutable or an accepter of persons The Assumption consisting of two parts is likewise true for all the Christian world knoweth that they professed the very same Religion that we now doe and that they liued and died in our Religion and for it and therefore to deny this is extreame impudencie The latter part of the Assumption themselues confesse to be true in calling and acknowledging them for Martyrs as is aforesaid If heere they roule ouer againe the same stone and hauing nothing else to say obiect the second time the ignorance of those times that the Martyrs knew not the corruptions that then were and still remaine in the worship Ministery and Church gouernment as all we either doe or may know I returne for answere that howsoeuer this is true of some of the Martyrs yet it is not true of them all And what say they to them were they Martyrs and saued or no Master Hooper Latimer Bradford with sundry others had more knowledge and a deeper insight into the present corruptions then many priuate Christians haue at this day nay it is not to be hoped that many among vs illiterate simple ones of slender capacity bad memories as olde men and women c. haue that knowledge of Church corruptions as these and some other Martyrs had who were learned men Ministers and such as spent their whole time and daies at their studies Shall we now deny Christianity and saluation to all these simple ones and grant the same to the former notwithstanding the ignorance of these persons in the corruptions and that not wilfull ignorance is greater then of the others Were the former saued not seperating from the corruptions in the worship of God and Ministery though they knew them very well to be corruptions and must all these notwithstanding their faith in Christ needs bee damned hauing lesse knowledge in the same corruptions because they doe not seperate Verily thus to iudge of this latter sort liuing and dying in this estate argueth not only want of charity but besides great impiety But tell me I pray you are none of these capable of true faith in Christ because of their ignorance in the corruptions Or if they be thereof capable is it by their ignorance herein extinguished Nay I would know of you why they that haue knowledge and good vnderstanding in the corruptions and condemning them doe not seperate may not as well be saued as Master Latimer Hooper and Bradford answere me this one Argument and so I end If Master Hooper M. Bradford with others knowing the corruptions then in worship and Ministery being thesame also with ours now were notwithstanding this knowledge and not seperating saued then men at this day notwithstanding their knowledge of the corruptions and not seperating because of them may likewise be saued But the first is true Therefore the second The Proposition must needs be true considering that God is immutable also no accepter of persons And the Assumption is true as may be shewed by the parts thereof He that shall reade the Acts of Monuments may easily see that sundry of the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes had good knowledge and insight into the corruptions wee speake of That the corruptions then in worship Ministery and discipline were the same with ours now as many and great their publike worship also the very same wee performe to God now and that notwithstanding those corruptions and their knowledge of them they did not seperat and withdraw themselues from the publike assemblies vntill such time the Masse that abominable Idoll and grosse Idolatry crept into Gods worship so as the body and substance of worship was defiled That these things I say are true no man can deny but with shame enough That they also were saued you in effect acknowledge in calling them Martyrs and holy Martyrs as before we haue heard and your bookes euery where declare Now that we haue been informed in the doctrine of the Church and applied the same seeing there are diuers gone out
came and groned vnder the present superstitious and idolatrous worship sighing and crying vnto God day and night because of it they not a few And tell me I pray you had they not in King Edwards the word of God read in their mother tongue in euery Congregation throughout the land and preached also heere and there according to the number of Preachers then Besides they had the holy Bible in the English tongue in their houses wherein no doubt many did meditate day and night Also many godly Bookes specially against papistrie were in their hands whereof they were daily scattering and reading all the dayes of Queene Mary In her time also many in the land had their secrete meetings sometimes by day sometimes by night wherin they ioyned together in the word and prayer and administration of the Sacraments Tidings and letters went daily on euery side concerning the patience and alacritie of the Martyrs in their sufferings their constantie their graue and learned answeres and Apologies and of the rude and vnlearned replies the sauage and cruell dealing of the Prelates with them on the other side The blood of the Martyrs likewise shed before the eyes of all men preached aloud vnto them that saw and heard therof Adde hereunto the manifold conferences consultations disputaions vsed about Religion and the right way to saluation whether this or that were the way specially in the entrance of Q. Elizabeth to her throne that there was a From the 17. of Nouember vntill Midsommer more then halfe a yeare for the people to heare learne and consider before the Commaundement came and we cannot be so void of vnderstanding as to think that meere force coÌ„pulsion brought all to the holy profession vniuersally made nor of charitie as to conceiue that they all generally wanted all knowledge and all faith and were assemblies consisting only of ignorant persons and vnbeleeuers But suppose that onely the proclamation and royall commandement had brought in all And that none had had knowledge and faith in God but Q. Elizabeth who caused that proclamation and gaue that commandement and whose memoriall for that act is and shall be blessed in all ages succeeding Be it granted I say that all parish assemblies then in this land were Congregations of ignorant persons and vnbeleeuing no true Churches indeed at least in Gods account yet it doeth not followe thereupon that our assemblies be such now but this notwithstanding may be and indeede are the Churches of Christ seeing that euer since aboue 50. yeeres wee haue beene pertakers of the true word of God and Sacraments and submitted our selues thereunto and many of vs effectually called thereby as witnesseth our liues vnblameable euen our enemies being Iudges There are many men in a house but gotten into it not through the doore whereby is the ordinary passage into it but by some backe doore or through the window or happely at some breach violently made into the saide house Were it not extreame folly or rather madnesse because of this manner of entrance to deny the inbeing of the aforesaide men in the house Thus vnwise are the Brownists in denying our inbeing in the Church which is the house of God because the manner of our entrance or passage into it at the first was not such as it ought to haue beene as they affirme Apology 24 If you should finde saith Doctor Hall a company of true Christians in vtmost India would you stand vpon tearmes and enquire how they became so Whiles they haue that is necessary for that Heauenly profession what neede your curiositie trouble it selfe with the meanes Against the trueâ—h of our Church therefore to obiect as they do that it waâ— not at the first rightly gathered by the sound of the word but rather of the trumpet is nothing if it were true much more is it nothing and of no validitie that being false And heere befâ—re I ende this point let vs yet further marke how the first gathering of our Church as touching the time when it was they ascribe to the beginning of Queene Elizabeths raigne and as concerning the meanes whereby it was gathered to the proclaimation then made but both vntruly For the first conuersion of our land to the faith of Christ was long before and that by the preaching of the Gospell as is plaine by ecclesiastical stories and by the persecution and martyrdome of the Saints Act. and Monâ—m passim from time to time recorded therein At least who can deny that the Church of England was a true Church in King Edward his dayes during whose raigne many were by preaching so effectually called as the trueth which they then embraced and professed they after sealed with their blood And by the same meanes an infinite company more were then conuerted and brought to the faith that by God were deliuered and preserued from the rage and mallice of the aduersary Very vntrue and slaunderous therefore is this saying of Maister Ainsword Couâ—terp 64. The gathering and planting of your Church hath beene by the Magistrates authoritie not by the word of Christ Heere also as in a glasse wee may behold the falshood and vanitie of that speach of H. Barrow D sâ—ouery of the falsechurch 10. Iustificâ—tion 275. All the people were in one day by the blast of Queene Elizabeths Trumpet of ignorant Papists and grosse Idolaters made faithfull Christians and true professors With these men agreeth M. Robison If the body of the land in the beginning of the Queenes raigne were good and holy at all the Magistrates compulsion wrought it in men and made them of persecuting Idolaters true Christians for other meanes in tearming or comming betwixt their profession of the Masse and of the Gospell had they none sauing the Magistrates authoritie How truely is saide that all the people and inhabitants of this land were ignorant and without the know-of God Secondly Papists and grosse Idolaters Thirdly That no other meanes did intermine and come betwixt their profession of the Masse and the Gospell but the Magistrates authoritie doe thou reader iudge by the promises Obserue here thier slandering of the people of God which is a sinne a thousand fould more hainous then the slandering of one man also their vncharitablenes but chiefely their grosse ignorance who secretly heere emplies that a true visible Church is a company of faithfull and true Christians and true Professors agreeing with their description of the visible Church wherof before we haue heard This â—s taught in the parable of the sower Math. 13.2 c. matt 22.14 Whereas the holy Scriptures teach vs that the most in the visible Church are such as haue onely the name and outward profession of Christianitie being nothing lesse then that they professe and seeme to be Christians in name onely called Christians but no Christians indeede These men tels vs that all in the visible Church are faithfull and true Christians and true Professors and
he had care and pittie and not generally the Israelites or visible Church consisting of them so the l st sheepe of the Iewes and Gentiles are they whom Christ in his second sending of hâ—s Apâ—stles and in their prâ—aching and writing respected and of whom he had care and pittie and not the visible Church or Churches among them And this is further confirâ—ed yea cleared as I thinke by that speech of Paul in his Seâ—mon to them of Antiochia in Pisidia Actes 13.26 Yee men and brethren children of the generation of Abraham and whosoeuer among you feare God to you is the word of this saluation sent All they to whom Paul spake this professâ— the feare of God and therefore by them that are heere saide to feare God wee cannot vnderstand such seeing hee puâ—s a difference betwixt those in the Congregation that feared God and the rest It is one thing to feare God in deede and another thing to professe the feare of God This profession all in the Church doe make and so many of them as haue an externall righteousnesse wee are to iudge thus of them that they feare God yet onely they who be of the Church dâ—e indeede and trueth feare God the rest making a shewe of that they doe or haue not For the feare of God is a grace or giâ—t of Gods sanctiâ—ying Spirit which God of his grace giueth to all and onely to them that are sanctified in Christ Iesus It is proper to Gods Elect and them who be of the inuisible Church and to bee found in none other And this the Scrâ—pture teacheth where it s ith The feare of the Lord is the beginning of wisâ—dome Prou. 9.10 And againe Blessed is them an that feareth the Lord. Psal 112.1 Now to these who haue this feare the word of saluation is sent and therefore the Apostolicall Epistles whereupon iâ— followeth necessarily that the Epistles were not sent to the visible Churches If iâ— be so that the Apostles write their Epistles to the Elect members of the inuisible Church then that they in their Epistles do ca l them to whom they write Saints I adde sanctifiâ—d â—n Christ Iesus fa thfull a chosen Generation a royall Priâ—st o d an holy Nation â—iuely stones a spiritual house the Temple oâ— God the habâ—tation of God by the Spirit the Body of Câ—rist c. maketh nothing at all to prooue this That a true visible church is a company of Saints sanctified in Christ Iesus faithfull the Body of Christ c. Neither doe these titles nor any othes of this kinde scattered euery where throughout the Epistles which be attributed to them of the invisible Church hinder this That a visible Church is a company of holy and vnholy faithfull and vnfaithfull and so your obiection is friuolous making nothing against vs. But graunt wee that the holy Apostle meant and writ his epistles to the visible churches at Rome Corinthus c. Neiâ—her will that helpe you though you imagine it doeth greatly And then I answere that Paul calleth the members of a visible Church Saints not because they were all holy and righteous men either in deede or outward appearance and caryage of themselues towards God and man as these men fondly imagine and very confidently affirme expounding thus this word Saints but in one or moe of these sences following In the 5. of Leuit those are called holy things that were consecrated vnto the Lord Vers 15. Vers 9.10.21 and in the 27. of the same booke the field whâ—ch was dedicated vnto the Lord is said to be an holy field and the beasts that were offered in sacrifice are called holy Euen so all of the visible Church are or may be called holy ones or Saints because in baptisme they be all dedicated vnto the Lord and giuen or resigned vp into his seruice Secondly Paul calleth or might call all of the vis Church Saints or holy ons because they aboue all people that are vpoÌ„ the earth are of God called or commanded to be holy Heb. 12.14 2. Thess 4.7 God saith the Apostle hath not called vs vnto vncleanenesse but vnto holinesse Hereunto belongeth that speech so oft repeated in the Law and after by Peter Leuâ—t 11.44 19.2 1. Pet. 1.16 Be ye holy for I am holy And that Exod. 22.31 Ye shall be an holy people vnto me And againe Leuit. 11.45 I am the Lord that brought you out of the land of Egypt to be your God 1. Cor. 1.2 and that you should he holy for I am holy For confirmation of th s exposition serueth that Paul terming them Saints addeth by calling Paul vnto the Church of God which is at Corinthus Saints by calling Rom. 2.7 Psal 79.2 Deuâ— 7.6 14.2.21 and in his Ep to the Romans To all you that be at Rome beloued of God called Saints And in this sence the Nation or people of the Iewes are called Saints and said to be an holy people because the Lord hath chosen them to be such Thirdly all of the visible Church were or might bee called Saints because of their holy profession or holy religion which they professed Whatsoeuer they vvere their religion was holy and hee whom they in the middest of heathens and infidels confessed and professed was holy euen that holy One. Luke 1.35 In this respect because they professed holinesse and themselues to be holy all of the visible Church may fitly bee called Saints that is holy ones Euen as they are called faithfull and that with the same breath yea faithfull in Christ Iesus Paul an Apostle to the Saints which are at Ephsus Ephes 1.1 and to the faithful in Christ Iesus not that they all had faith in Christ which is true and iustifying faith but because they professed faith in him in vvhich sense we describe the visible Church to bee a company of faithfull people When therefore Paul saith To the Saints which are at Ephesus and to the Saints which are in Phillippi it is all one as if he had said To the Christians or professors of the Christian religion which are at Ephesus and Phillippi And so in the inscriptions of his Epistles to the Romans and Corinthians where he saith To all you that be at Rome callâ—d Saints vnto the Churcb of God at Corinthus Saints by calling it is as much as if he had said called or by calling Christians And thus thâ—s word Saints is often taken in the Epistlâ—s as else where in the New Testament as Romans 16.14 Phil. 4.21 Acts 26.10 compared vvith Act. 9.1 22.4 M. Bernard teaching that men are caâ—led Saints because of the profession of faith in Christ who maketh all true beleeuers holy and Saints M. Robinson answereth thus Iustif 110. It is true you say that Christ makes all true beleeuers holy and Saints but I deny that euery profession of faith in Christ argues a true beleeuer A false dissembler is he and no true beleeuer that in
a company of men are the matter of the visible Church and heere that Saints by calling are the onely matter In the one place he makes calling a part of the forme in the other part of the matter But I maruell greatly M. Ainsworth that you scornfully reiect this description of Saints seeing it suteth so well with all the writings and namely that whole booke of yours called Communion of Saints 66. The Communion of Saints In it you writ thus All men and women called to the faith of God are Saints by calling being sanctified by Christ Iesus and one with another are holy brethren Saints by calling by your owne exposition are those who 1. by Faith are vnited to Christ and 2. by loue one to another and 3. are sanctified by Christ Iesus that is by his Spirit dwelling in them He is very ignorant who thinketh that these haue not forsaken all knowne sinne and doe all the knowne will of God that is desire and endeauor it and he hath cleane forgotten that of the Apostle If Christ be in you the body is dead because of sinne and the Spirit is life for righteousnes sake which euidently prooueth the same Rom. 8.10 Moreouer you tell vs in the same booke communion of Saints in the end of the booke That in the Saints sinne dieth and righteousnesse renueth daily both inwardly and outwardly yea that in the Hypocrites which be in the Church righteousnesse increaseth outwardly If these positions of yours bee true not vnfitly nor vntruly do they teach that saints are men for saking all knowne sinne doing all the known will of God and increasing in grace Considering they meane externally and so farre as men can iudge You all teach that a true visible Church consisteth onely of Saints and by Saints you meane such as haue at the least external righteousnesse and liue vnblameablie in an holy conuersation before men And because all in our Church bee not such Saints but many scandalous in their liues you condemne vs for a false Churse This you cannot denie to bee true Is it not hereby manifest that all of you in effect though not in the same wordes doe likewise teach That Saints are men seperated from all knowne sinne doing all the will of God knowne doeth not that externall righteousnesse and outward sanctimony which you require in all Saints and membâ—rs of the visible Church impâ—y as much as these men heere speake can any be vnblamable which you require in all Saints who forsaketh not before men all knowne sinne and doeth not all the knowne will of God Why then doe you disclaime this discription of Saints You render this reason because from this discription diuers errors doe arise and therefore it must needes bee erronious and fa fe All this I confesse to be true Can you discerne this position or discription being taught by another to be erronious and that from it sunâ—ry errors doe growe whereupon you disclaime it and them and haue you not an eye to see and an heart to abhorre and disclaime the same doctrine when it is taught by your selfe But though M. Ainsworth disclaime this abbortiue yet M. Robinson being more naturall doeth take to it Iustif 105. This position quoth he which you M. Bernard account error rightly vnderstood and according to his exposition from whom you receiued it meaning M. Smith is an vndoubted trueth For of such onely externally and so farre as men can iudge the true Church is gathered and of them alone framed as of the subiect matter Seeing therefore you doe fully agree about the matter of the visible church and that your selues and others mistake it in thinking that you doe heere abouts differ knowe that that which followeth against your supposed matter of the visible Church is meant and spoken against you all and that iustly because it maketh as well against all of the seperation as any First then I demaund of you who teach that Saints are a people forsaking all knowne sinne doing all the knowne will of God increasing in grace c. And that such are the onely matter of the visible Church whether a company of people thus qualâ—fied and graced of God be a Church or to be held to be without and a Synagogue of Satan Surely you will blush and be ashamed to answere negatiuely And if you answere that such a societie is a Church then haue we a Church consisting onely of matter without the forme for such a people as these say you are the matter of a true visible Church wherevnto the forme remaineth to bee added which what it is you tell vs after Now you know it is vtterly vnpossible that a Church or any thing else should be without the forme seeing the forme giues being to a thing but set downe after another manner Secondly it cannot bee denied but such Saints as these are Conuerts yea so farre as man can iudge truely conuerted to the Lord. If the Church consist of such persons onely it followeth necessarily therevpon that men are conuerted not in the Church by the Ministerie of the Pastors and Teachers thereof but without I know not by whom nor by what meanes which is as false as your seperation is sinfull and therefore is this your doctrine false from whence this is inferred Indeed I know that this inference is with you orthodoxall For in your Apologie among the Positions you were bold to tender to his Maiestie this is one That discreet faithfull Apology 45. and able men though not yet in office of Ministerie may bee appointed to preach the Gospell and whole truth of God that men being first brought to knowledge and conuerted to the Lord may then be ioyned in holy communion with Christ our head and one with an other And for confirmation therof you produce seuenteene testimonies of holy writ and seuen reasons But to let your abuse of Scripture and of that reason which God hath giuen you goe I tell you this doctrine and position of yours is against Scripture and therefore as impossible to be proued either by Scripture or Reason By the fourth of the Ephesians it is plaine that Christ ascending on high gaue Pastors and Teachers to the Church as well for the gathering together of the Saints that is for the calling of men to the faith or conuerting them to God whereby men before profane and wicked are made Saints or holy ones as for the edifying and building vp of these Saints in the faith and other graces of the Spirit after they be called You teach now the direct contrary that Christ hath not giuen his Ministers Pastors and Teachers to the former of these ends aforesaid which is also the principall but hath say you appointed that men not in the Ministery but priuate no Church officers should conuert men to the Lord and the Ministers of Christ are onely to edifie and build them vp in grace So that priuate men they lay the foundation Ministers doe but