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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
B21542	A musick-lector, or, The art of musick (that is so much vindicated in Christendome) discoursed of by way of dialogue between three men of several judgments the one a musician and master of that art, and zealous for the Church of England ..., the other a Baptist ..., the other a Quaker (so called) ... / written by Solomon Eccles.	Eccles, Solomon, 1618-1683.	1667 (1667)	Wing E129	22,469	30

And how did Musick and Dancing take the heart of the foolish King Herod by means whereof he committed murder and caused John Baptists's Head to be cut off who was a blessed man approved of God and the Lord Jesus Christ and was greater than the Prophets and because he reproved him for having his Brothers Wife rankor lay in the heart of the Damsels Mother and when the Fidlers did strike up and the Wench began to dance his affectionate love began to be enflamed to the Girle that he killed the Lords servant in coole blood O ye Fidlers and Dancing-Masters let this President break you off from your filthy practice Why do you dance without the Ark Where is your Ark What President have you in Scripture for your Danceing You set up the Devils Kingdom by your proud Calling You set their Bodies in postures to enflame and take with the lustful Nature in men and with proud Apparrel and Spots on their Faces Wo to the Crown of Pride What account will ye give to the Lord ye Dancing-masters from whence came ye where is your Ark David danced before the Ark. O repent ye shamless men will you not blush at your doings If my Calling was unlawful much more is yours O do not provoke the Lord any more haste haste and leave off your practice before it leave you for what thank will it be to you then when you shall break off sinning because you can sin no more Mu. Truly Friend you make my heart ake yet I have one question to ask you more If our Musick and Singing in our Churches is not of the Lord who brought in these things Qu. Pope Vitellian was the man who being a lusty Singer and fresh couragious Musitian himself brought into the Church Prick-Song and Descant and all kind of sweet and pleasant melody And because nothing should hinder the vain idle Ears of fond and fantastical men he joyned the Organs with the curious musick in the Year 653. So 't is more then a thousand years ago since this Pope set up Piping and Fidling in Churches as they Call them as you may read in a Book called The Reliques of Rome and since by Queen Elizabeths Fidlers Thomas Sternhold John Hopkins and others who stile themselves Musitians these turned the Psalms into Meeter Hymn and Verse and set men and women in the Idol Temples to sing and deride holy David For one sayes I am weary of my groaning all the night long make I my Bed to swim I water my Couch with my teares Are these any better than mock-verses upon poor lamenting David for they that do not witness what they say and also witness such a State are mockers such as were said should come in the last dayes For when did Tho. Sternhold and John Hopkins or any of them witness such a State to water their Couch with tears and to fast till men might tell their bones This is no wayes consistant with holy men who wrote as they were moved by the holy Ghost And another sayes O Lord I am not puft in mind I have no scornful look But were they not puft in mind to take upon them to turn the holy Scriptures into Poetry and had they not a scornful look if not why did it not content them to read the Scriptures as they were but they had taken upon them things to wonderful for them this did not David Psal 131. 1. Wherefore Wo to the Pope and his Cardinals to the Monks Friars and Jesuites Bishops Lord-Bishops and all false Prophets and Hirelings with their Organists and Queristers Musitians and Dancers on Ropes with their Fidlers and Pipers Juglers Cheaters and Gamsters Hunters and Haukers Swearers and Lyars Drunkards and Harlots for all this is Babylon her Maskers and Mummers and against all this is Gods wrath gone forth from the presence of the Lamb Their Plague is begun Mu. But yet I think our Brethren Thomas Sternhold John Hopkins and others did think they did well and how could the People imagine that it was the Musitians state but their endeavour was to shew how it was with David and not themselves Qu. The People know that it was none of their condition that 's true but what need had David of their rehearsal and reading and singing his condition and to sound out their Pipes with their Organs and Queristers all these Songsters despise Davids practice Then is it not Mockery and Hypocrisie Who hath required such things at their hands Isa 1. 12. Mu. But Friend I have not forgot that you spake of a wonderful Teachet that doth far excell all that ever had a Name Qu. He whom I told thee of doth teach such Musick that God himself will listen to that 's more than men Psal 69. 33. and 72. 12 14. Mu. Truly Friend I could be glad if I could learn that Lesson that might please the Lord pray what part is that which the Lord is pleased with Qu. The inward part alone Isa 31. 33. Psal 51. 6. Mu. How contrary is this to our Musick for if we should play the inward part alone there is none would delight in our Musick Qu. That which men despise and Nations abhor the Lord doth highly esteem and that which men do highly esteem the Lord abhors Luke 16. 15. Mu. Truly Friend I would fain learn that Lesson that might please the Lord for I with others have pleased men and they have highly rewarded us but truly since I came to speak with you I do question whether I have bleased the Lord in so doing Qu. I was once playing a part with four more more than 30 years ago and the parts hit with the Fuige and came in with the Discords and Concords so very lovely that it took very much with that part which stands not in unity with the Lord So that a Master of Musick being in the Room the same time heard the parts and took his Hat off his head and flang it on the ground and cryed aloud saying Now take Body and Soul and all This he said who never knew what his Soul was nor what it would cost to redeem it from destruction So I see that Musick pleases well that which is for destruction and grieves that which God doth highly esteem and honour Isa 42. 21. Mu. Truly Sir I am something desirous to know further Pray where dwels this Musick-Teacher Qu. Come and see Mu. I would gladly see him and hear him and would go far to learn of him pray tell me where he dwells Qu. He dwells Invisible Mu. How can a man learn of him that dwells invisible you speak as if you did not intend that I should know Qu. Yes verily I would have thee know and do not think it strange because I thus speak for he that searcheth the heart and tryeth the reins is Invisible and some there be that learn of him Jer. 17. 7. Mu. T is true I know that we must all be taught of God but that is not

that they are the true Ministers of Christ that turn people from darkness to Light and from the power of Satan to God Act. 26. 28. Mu. I must confess our Ministers are great Scholars as Oxford and Cambridge can afford and we look upon such to be the Ministers of the Gospel and none else but yet I cannot say they turn people from their sins But pray are there no true Ministers of Christ but they Qua. Nay none can be said to be Ministers of Christ but such as turn people to the Lord. Mu. Why who then did send them came they of themselves Qu. I never sent them saith the Lord yet they run but they shall not profit the people at all Jer. 23. 22. Mu. Truly I think they have been much better than they are now Qua. Yea they have lost their Courage their Faith and their Zeal and some of them have spued up the Common-Prayer-Book in their Zeal but now they have many of them lickt it up again See what the Prophet calls such Isa 56. 10. Mu. Indeed our Ministers do love their bellies too well to be the Ministers of Christ Truly Friend I cannot speak much for them I see they feed their flock but sparingly but themselves they feed without fear I think for they grow in belly amain but what shall I say when such men as they go wrong what shall become of me that am a sinner Qua. Believe in the Light that shines in thy heart for that Teacher will never deceive thee but will make thee wiser than all thy Teachers Psal 119. 99 100. Mu. Your counsel is good but me-thoughts you were a very honest man and strict before you were a Quaker if I were so I should desire no more Qu. I had a Zeal but not according to Knowledge and all that I have given up to the Bats and to the Moles such as come not forth to look on the Sun for fear of persecution Joh. 10. 1. 1 Tim. 2. 3 12. Isa 2. 20. Mu. 'T is good to avoid Persecution as near as we can for the Scriptures advise us so to do Qu. The Thief and the Robber would climb up some other way but all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer Persecution 2 Tim. 3. 12. Mu. But Christ sayes If they persecute you in one City flee into another Qu. Before the Holy Ghost was given which was the promise of the Father they were more in fear and in the Childs state till our Lord and Master was offered up for a pattern to them then the same Spirit of Christ came into them and made them of the same mind for holy boldness and courage and they loved not their lives to the death and as Christ suffered in the flesh they do arm themselves with the same mind 1 Pet. 4. 1. Mu. Well but my Friend I have something else to say to you and I will leave these things to my Friend here who is better able to answer you than I can But pray let me ask you one question Qua. Use thy freedom Mu. Why did you forsake and dispise so harmless a Calling and Practice in the Art of Musick as you have done Besides you burnt and brake many good Instruments of Musick and burnt your Books of great price and value and why did you burn and break them at Tower-Hill I thought to tell you of it for it was an injurious thing to make our Calling contemptible And it is well known that Musick is the gift of God and an honourable practice I wonder you were not ashamed a man that lived so well and civilly to go and cast off such a Livelihood who maintained your Wife and Family very well and in good order and it is very probable if you had continued you had been of great esteem at this day Qua. I have found out the true Teacher who teaches the best Musick that ever any did learn who for rarity and skill out-strips all that ever had a name and such Musick as takes in the ears of God himself Jer. 9. 24. Mu. Lord bless me is there such a rare Musick-teacher among the Quakers I have heard indeed that the Quakers will come together in one place and sit an hour two or three and not speak a word one to another except sigh groan or weep do you call this good Musick Bap. Pray Friend what ground of Scripture have you to come together where some do sigh and groan and some do weep What Edification is there in this dumb show Qua. The Spirit breathes in whom it listeth and thou mayest hear the sound thereof but knowest not from whence it comes nor whither it goes John 3. Bap. Did you ever hear such Nonsense as this man speaks what strange stuff is this did I not tell you Sir what Nonsense we should have Qua. Are the Scriptures Nonsense Mu. Hold hold my Friend and be not offended at him for he hath spoke Scripture only some Translations do much differ Bap. All that I grant is true but what Scripture hath he to prove that Silent-meeting is a Worship of God Qua. The three Friends of Job when they beheld what misery he lay in they lift up their voice and wept and rent their cloaths indeed and sat down on the ground with him but spake nothing one to another for seven dayes and seven nights Job 2. last yet I do not bring this as a proof Mu. Indeed it was a long time for men to keep silence seven dayes and seven nights and not speak a word there was never such a thing done in our days I must confess but Job was a patient man Qua. I would ask thy Friend one Question and if he be free to answer me then the thing will appear more plain Mu. I 'le warrant hee 'l answer you for he is an able man and though he and I do differ I must confess in judgement yet I know he is able to answer you for he is a baptized person and stands for the vindication of Baptism and the Lord's Supper which are the Ordinances of God Qua. And I also stand in the defence of the holy Truth of God which was once delivered to the Saints Jude 3. Bap. Well Friend what 's your Question Qua. Who is it that tempts men to sin and to disobedience Bap. That is soon answered for he that tempts men to sin is the Devil Qua. Thou hast rightly answered for God tempts no man to sin neither is he tempted of any but every man when he is tempted is drawn away of his own lust and enticed and when lust hath conceived it brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death Jam. 1. 14 15. Bap. All that is true you have answered your self Qua. Then this is the Question By what means is it by a vocal voice or outward sound that he teaches men to sin Bap. Nay I do believe that the Devil is a spirit and doth not teach men to sin by

for the Lake I think you are for the Lake more likely But prethee Friend let me ask thee one Question more Qua. Speak on Mu. Doth not the Scripture say I will have mercy and not sacrifice Qua. Yea and it is a precious saying happy are they that can receive it and understand what it means Mu. Then truly if I had been your Counsellour you should never have burnt your Books nor brake and burnt your Instruments for if you could not for conscience sake have followed this Calling then I should have advised you to sell them and to have given the money to the Poor How say you Sir had not that been better Bap. Yes truly in my judgement it had for then some body would have been the better for it Qu. To obey the Lord. is better than to give all my goods to the poor and my body to be burned yet to let thee know the Truth of this thing when I came to be convinced of this everlasting truth I saw my Calling would not stand before it I went but not in the Counsel of the Lord and sold most of my Instruments howbeit that would not cover me for the Lord met with me and as I was learning to sew for I had formerly some insight of a Tailors Trade but I was too high to bow to it till the Truth came and that is of power to make the strong man bow and I sitting alone with my mind turned in the Voice of the Lord said Go thy way and buy those Instruments again thou lately soldest and carry them and the rest thou hast in thy house to Tower Hill and burn them there as a Testimony against that Calling So I obeyed the Lord and bought them again and carried them and all I had in my house to Tower Hill and burnt them there according to the uprightness of my heart before the Lord which Books and Instruments did amount to more than four and twenty pound and I had great peace Glory be to God for ever Amen Mu. But might it not be a delusion and false motion were you never sorry for what you have done in this thing Qu. Yes I was very sorry that when I had brought them to Tower Hill and had begun to set them on fire and when the fire flamed upon them the rude multitude would not suffer me to burn them but put the fire out so I was forced to stamp upon them and break them to pieces for I did it with much indignation though my Father and Grandfather and Great-grandfather were Mufitians yet he that was before sin was taught me to do as I did but I was sorry that I could not be avenged on them as I would but the Lord did accept of it and I had great peace And if at this time I had as many as would amount to a thousand pound of Instruments and Books for that purpose to the fire they should all go for the same indignation is with me still against that practice as against lying and stealing and committing adultery yet there is something in Musick but there is a difference between the Harps of God and the Harps of Men as there is a difference between the Natural man and the Spiritual 1 Cor. 2. 14. Mu. Well but my Friend I must tell you what the Judgement of wise men hath been in this your perverse proceedings for you were then distracted sure enough and it was a very great delusion of the enemy to perswade you from so good a Calling and this they say further That if the truth were known you have been sufficiently sorry for it since and some do verily believe that you will be glad to follow it again if you can but get an opportunity and truly as my old acquaintance I could wish that you would follow it again with all my heart What say you Sir Qu. God forbid that ever such a motion should enter my heart it never did nor never shall What go back and build again the things I have destroyed I have had opportunity sufficient to go back again into Egypt But to answer the thing thou spakest that if the truth were known some say that I have been sufficiently sorry Well both thou and they shall know the truth in this thing Indeed I was sorry at my very heart and to this hour it troubles me That ever I should spend so much of my pretious time so idely in such a cursed practice Acts 11. 17. Mu. But was not David a man after Gods own heart and he played before the Lord and danced before the Ark. And in Solomons day there was Musick in the Temple Qu. What hast thou to do with David or with Solomon or the Temple Where are your Burnt-offerings and Sacrifices you that plead for your Musick Dancing and instance David Solomon Ye filthy hypocrites would you have David and Solomon and the Temple to cover you Behold Nebuchadnezzar that old Idolater who ordained That at the sound of the Cornet Sackbut Dulcimer and all his gang of Fidlers men must bow to his Idol And for this thousand years his Brother the Pope hath set up Mass-houses and Musick and Organs and Bells and Queristers in Idol Temples For Pauls Church was called The Temple of Diana And Peters Church at Westminster The Temple of Apollo And in Rome they had the great God Jupiter and in Florence The Temple of Mars And in other places to other Idols Now Jupiter Mars Apollo and Diana were unclean Spirits and filthy Devils See Bishop Jewel of Salisbury in his Treatise of the holy Scriptures Pag. 30. And in Englands Idol Temples they sing Davids Lamentations but never follow his Practice Psal 6. Prov. 14. 9. Dan. 3. 15. Mu. Truly me thinks when I go to Church and hear the Organs and Voyces and the Discords and Concords I am even ravished to hear and I can praise the Lord with them and t is to me as the joys of Heaven Qu. That Heaven will be shaken and thy Song will be turned into howling for such Musick and Singing was never set up of God but of men and it takes with that part in man that serves not God aright but is for wrath and judgement Hos 12. 26. 1 Cor. 2. 24. Mu. Marry God forbid Friend be advised what you say and take heed for our most learned Divines and reverend Fathers in God that we have in England do highly approve of Musick Qu. T is never the better for that nor they are never the better for being called of men Divines and Reverend Fathers in God when they Persecute the Saints God is highly displeased with them and will give them blood to drink But what effects hath Musick brought forth that men so highly esteem it What fruit did Nebuchadnezzars Musick bring forth in his day was it not to murder But the three servants of the Lord would not bow to his Image at the sound of his Pipes and his Fiddles though others did