great triumphes of For the first off the places it appeareth how Chrysost there called Iohn elder of the church of Antioche was chosen bishop of Constantinople by cōmē voice of all both people and clergy and how he had his election ratified by the Emperour Arcadius For the seuēth booke yt appeareth that Chrysanthus was chosen bishop off Costantinople by the people And when as Sabbatius because Chrysanthus hid himself and would haue none off the bishopricke gat certeine bishops to ordeine him into yt the story sheweth how the people sowght Chrysanthus owt and put owt Sabbatius diuers other exāples there be which I leaue as I would also haue doon thes if it had not bene to haue shewed the vaine triumphes off the D. And where he saith that there is nothing in those 6. and 7. of Euseb which maketh mentiō of any electiō by the people but in one onely which he goeth about to wipe a way that thow maiest know the D. changeth not his skin I will note them in a word To leaue therfore the election made by reuelation where he saith the election was made by the ministers and pastors yt is manifest that the churches had to doo in the electiōs For in the indorcemēt of the letters wherby an other was appointed at Antioche into Samosatenus roume as well autority off the churches is pretended as off the bishops elders and deacons Where also he would clude the other place firste because it was a miracle then for that by the word brethren it is not certeine whether the people were noted for the first yt may appeare how vaine yt is seing the story saith the brethren came together to chuse a bishop The miracle therfore which came vnloked for off them and after they were assembled was to direct them in their election and not to authorise them to chuse For autority they had before els they would not haue come together for that purpose As for the other it is a boldnes too insufferable withowt shewing any one exāple and contrary both vnto the phrase off the scripture and aucient fathers shewed in my former booke and off Eusebius him self as may appeare diuers times in some one chapter In all thes sentences set downe owte of Euseb there is not a worde for the D. nor againste vs The D. cōsesseth that Origine tawght beinge a laie man in the church publikely he can not denie if he woulde but that he tawght by the appointment off bishoppes Thes two beinge put what followeth but that in those daies he was counted a laie man which toke vppon him the ministerie vppon the bishoppes appoinctinge onelye And that he abuse not his reader with such rouinge treatises my reson I will set downe in a fewe wordes That appointement vnto the ministrie which was thowght not to inhable to be minister was thowght insufficient but the appointement off the bishops onely was thowght not to inhable to be minister for Origene that had that appoinctement and authoritie vvas still coumpted a laie man therfore that authoritie onely was then thowght insufficient Eusebius therfore giuinge me this houlde which the D. is driuen vvhether he will or no to confesse ▪ there is wherwith to vpholde that I haue saide For if the bishops appointment off Origine to preach did not gyue him any degree in the ministrie for what cawse did it not except yt be it at I haue assigned his trāslatiō of Euse words whē he was yet not ordeined minister wherin another point off this matter standeth is not warrāted For by this means he must take one of his wordes which properly signifieth the choise by lifting vp and vsed sometimes of eccesiasticall writers for laying on of hands for a degree which hathe no example Likewise he must take the other vvhich I haue shewed to signifie the company of all the gouernours off the church for the office off one onely elder which wanteth proofe Beside that Muscul which translateth yt semeth to haue folowed the sence I haue where if he had folowed the D. he would haue doone otherwise For in steed of he had not appoinctmēt of the eldership he would haue saied the degree of an elder Where he alledgeth that Demetrius suffred hym to teach at Alexandria when he was a laie man belike therby to proue that the reprehension of Demetrius was not to be regarded which did himselfe that he found faulte with in other yt maketh nothinge to this question For yt is enowghe to that in hande that yt is confessed bothe by Demetrius and Eusebius Which taketh the defense off those whom Demetrius rebuked that Origene was a laie man althowghe appoincted to the preachinge off the vvorde by the Bishops Whether yt be lawfull for a laie man to teache the worde off God in publike place is an other question The nexte sect I leaue to the iudgmente of the reader Of this greate heape which foloweth the moste parte haue bene broughte before some foure times at the leaste they haue bene thresshed and there is no yelde it shal be seen that the rest are no better then their fellowes the places off scripture alledged heere are all answered sauing onely that of the Actes 13. which is borrowed of Hosius who vseth this place againste the choise by the church For answer wherunto I saie that it is nor question there off such election as wee spake off that beinge the election off God and not off the church I for my parte rather thinke that it was the voice off God by the Prophetes or one off the prophetes and for proofe alledge the storie in the Crome which may be cōmētary to this For as the church thē in distresse by publike praier and faste receiued comforte throwghe a Prophet whom the Lorde sodenly in the myddeste off the congregation raised amongeste them euen so the church off Antioche beinge in great distresse and feare off ruine off the church off God partly by the sworde and famine partly by contentions and serchinge remedy by puhlike praier and faste receiued by a Prophet which the lord stirred vpp amongeste them this oracle wherby he shewed them a singular meanes not onely to mainteine but to amplifie the borders off the kingdome off Christe If the S. will not receiue this interpretation but take the holy gost to haue sounded immediatly from heauen yet it helpeth him nothing there was no place lefte for any election but needes muste Paule and Bar. besent Iff therfore the bishop haue the spirite off prophecie at any time wherby he may haue such a certeine and vnfallible direction as this was wee will les sticke with him for his sole election Iff not yt is in vaine to alledge this example sauinge that it maketh much againste him For if the lorde woulde haue the approbation off the whole companie of Doctors and elders in that election vvhich him selfe had made and vvhere there was no daunger off error howe
may better appeare for that in other places where S. Paul deuideth the whole mynistrie of the churche the ministrie off the word which he vttered here by the word off Prophecie he there attributeth not vnto Prophetes but vnto Bishops And when as the prophecie which the D. phansieth is a simple Ministrie off the church that Prophecie mencioned there being compounded muste needes be diuers Likewise that a Prophet to the Corin. is taken generally for any which instructeth with any word off exhortation yt is apparant both by that S. Paul attributeth prophecying to all which haue any gift off teaching and in that he doth so often oppose it to the fruteles speaking in a straunge toung amongest the assembly of the faithfull His testimonies out off writers remaine wherein amongest the auncient he hath onely a counterfeit sentence off Ambrose as I haue before declared which as yt ys full of confusion and disorder so yt maketh nothing for the D. for if Apostels be bishops and Euangelistes and Euangelistes be Deacons c. what maketh that to proue that there are beside the bishops and Deacons seuerall functions of Apostels and Euangelistes which is the question But how this fable is beaten down by all auncient antiquitie that may be a sufficient argument that the auncient writers in great consent speake off the whole ministrie off the church as deuided into thes three orders Bishops Elders and Deacons After that other ministries entred as doorkepers subdeacons c. yet there were none but such lightheaded spirits as I haue before spoken off that durst peint out any their mynysteries with the names off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes For the new writers that the D. if his forhead be not of yron may learn to blush I will towch their Iudgment onely which he hath alledged for him self Maister Caluin diuiding the mynistrie off the word into Apostels Prophetes Euangelistes Pastors and Doctors affirmeth that the tvvo last onely that is to say Pastors and Doctors are ordinary Bucer likewise deuiding them into perpetuall and for a tyme affyrmeth that these perteine vnto thestate off the former church and correcteth the D. Ambrose for appliyng them to his times by the true Ambroses sentence to the contrary in the fyrst of his Offic. Peter Martyr vsing the same diuision sheweth that the function off Apost and Prophets are not in vse and that the ministrye of Prophets is not onely expyred in respect of telling thinges to come but also for the manner off interpreting the scripture That he speaketh not the same off the Euangelist was for that the Apostle maketh no mention off him in that place Musculus deuideth the mynisteries off the vvord into those vvhich serued for the beginning off the gospell as Apost Euang. Proph. and those vvhich cōtinue for euer as Pastors Doctors Elders Bishops Bullinger saith the office off Apostleship Prophetship and Euangelistship were instituted off the Lord for a tyme and that thes many ages euen synce the foundacion off the kingedome off Christ both Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are ceassed into vvhose place are come bishops Pastors Doctors and Elders Last off all the confession off the churches hauing spoken off all mynisteries off the word mencioned off the Apostel concludeth that off all those now it is lawfull to esteeme mynistries off the churche Bishops Elders Pastors and Doctors Thes autors affirming that thes mynistries be extraordinary that they were for a time that other are come into their places the reader may see how the D. dealeth with him Let yt now be noted how he hath haled thes sentences taken from them Out off Maister Caluin he alledgeth that God hath stirred vp Apostels or Euangelistes synce the time of the primitiue churche and hath doone so at this tyme. Within a lyne after he addeth yet I call that extraordinary because in churchs vvell dressed it hath no place Of the like sort yt ys that he alledgeth owt off my booke whereas vpon Maister Caluin so of my wordes which affirme that God hath raised vp sometimes Euangelistes immediatly by his spirit vvithout any calling off men he woulde conclude that the office is ordinary and perpetuall then which bouldnes what can be greater Out of Bucer he alledgeth that there be now Euāgelists Where if his maner of speach that there are found Euangelists could not yet that which he addeth that God doth it by merueilous meanes ought to haue kept him from that allegacion except he thinck that a miraculous calling be perpetuall and ordinary Out of the Confess is brought that thes offices off Apostles c. are mynistries off the new Testament els should they haue great iniury seing they were both in tyme and dignitie first but who the D. set a part would euer conclude therof that they are perpetuall ministeries especially considering it addeth immediatly in plaine wordes that the Apostles are ceased and Pastors come into their places which could not be yf it had any such meaning as the D. phansieth Where it saith that there are yet Prophetes yf that were not which I alledged out of it towhing the shutting owt of those three ministeries from them which are now in vse yet the manner off speaking there are yet found the same with that of Bucer before alledged declareth that they ment therby an extraordinary calling For so we vse to speak of thinges rare and not in commen vse Last off all where yt is alledged owt off Bullinger that the wordes mentioned to the Ephe. are confounded yt doth not make for him but is answer both against the most places brought to proue Timothe a bishop and against those which he hath cited in the 3. and 4. Diuision off this chap. for if those ministries being separate one from an other their names notwithstanding be confounded yt muste follow that not euery one which is called an Apostle or bishop c. hath that function which is by some proprietie seuered from other and which the Apostle mēt to the Eph. for where one man being an Apostle is sometimes called a Prophet Bishop Doctor Elder and Deacon yf he will say that because he is called by thes titles he did therefore all those functions proper vnto those mynistries beside thabsurdities before shewed the vntruth doth manifestly appeare in the office off disposing off the churches money Whereoff the Apostles discharging them selues ceassed not therefore sometime to be called by the same name off Deacons And to vse those authorities which he hath brought Ierom calleth I say the Prophet both Euangelist and Apostel Yet I think the D. doth not esteme Ierom to haue had so litle iudgement as to think that he was ether off them in that signification they are taken of Saint Paul. likewise where he hath cited out off Caluin that Timothe was a Pastor when Caluin calleth him also an excellent Doctor and maketh that a seuerall function from the Pastor yt is cleare that he spake not off
so strong to carrie the metropolitaneship ouer all these places to Chrysostome as Nazianzenes wordes before handled are to carrie the metropolitaneship off almost all the churches in the worlde vnto Cyprian For these wordes he had the same care can not be vnderstoode as the D. would that he did the same thinges in all places which he did at Constantinople For how could he teache and rebuke sin in all that circuite as there depriue and excommunicate in proper person as there so that will he nil he the wordes must haue a restreint in respecte off those before as for the greke word he translateth he gouerned which signifieth he adorned vnles he haue some singular licence i◠is for a translation especially too riotous althowghe if that were there yt drawethe no metropolitane autoritie as hathe bene shewed in Cyprians example I graunt Sozomenes are more pressing which speakethe off his deposing off the bishops in Asia and if to mainteine my former answere I would say he deposed them not by his autoritie but by his counsaile as Diophantus said off the cytie of Athenes ruled by him because Themistocles his father vvhich ruled yt vvas guided by his mother and his mother by him and therto alledge that he is called the Doctor off the vvoride by the same Theodoret when notwithstanding he coulde not be an authorised doctor off suche a compas yt would peraduenture be more then he can wel answer But if he will as he dothe make that his paterne to frame his Archbishop by he maketh vs a faicrer but to shoote at then before the archbis being made therby in authoritie off breaking canons off the best Councells by putting in and putting owte off his absolute power not infeferior vnto the pope of Rome and in compasse off dominion aboue him and a fatter Pope then he And beside that it is but trifling to fetche examples off Archbishop like gouernement fower hundrethe yeares and a halfe after Christe or there abowt where the question is off three hundrethe I haue shewed how daungerous yt is to builde vpon the examples off those times especially when euen in this pointe off broad dominion before Chrysostomes time there was an intollerable excesse in the bishop off Antioche which beside Chrysostomes compas had also all Illyricum Towching Ireneus ambassage into Phrigia the D. eye is not simple For after Euseb had shewed that there were Ambassadours sent by the frenche churches to those off Phrigia he addeth as an augmentation that they vvere also sent to the bishop off Rome After to the ende the ambassage might haue more autoritie he sheweth how Ireneus was sent being commended vnto the bishop off Rome to the end as may easely appeare that his letter also obteined with theirs the churches might be the rather moued Whether I haue followed the Scoliastes meaning towching euerie hishop hauing a seuerall congregation I referre me to that I haue before alledged The D. answer to Chrysostome which placeth the bishops charge in one citie that he dothe but shew how the Bishop ys subiecte to as many afflictions as the Emperour and that he puttethe no difference betwene the Bishop and the Emperour is but a cauill For his pourpose is to shew what are the manifold troubles that accompanie the mynistery therby to pinche those which seeke after yt and that he dothe with an argument off comparison in that being but bishop off one citie yet he is subiecte not onely to so many but to moe troubles then the Emperour which hath so large gouernement Now if bishops autority should be extended as the D. estemeth Chrysostomes who seeth not that his cōparison halteth downe right considering that there were few Emperours or rather none sithens Constantine that euer had so large dominion as this ascribed vnto Chrysostome For against this argument yt might haue bene easely replied off those which laie in waite for the ministerie that seing one was able to gouerne so many whole countreis and nations yt could not be so hard a matter to gouerne one onely citie I could not here be put to shifte seing where our question is off 300. yow fetche your proufes off 400. whether I haue said trew let the reader iudge Where I alledge the first acte off the Calcedon Councell that the bishops cried that Theodoret vvas no bishop be alledgeth the 8. acte that he was If yt be a simple answere to set one author against an other yt is muche more simple to set one autoritie at variaunce with yt selfe withowt shewing any way of reconciliatiō That the Councell did well in condēning that Theodoret appeareth for that he had writtē against Cyril euen in that Cyrill wrote against Nestorius errors in which respecte his bookes were commaunded to be burnte with those errors And this was not onely done by the Councel off Calcedon but by that also off Ephesus and Constantinople so that here are three condemnations passed against him for one absolution And that what maner off one verelie which appeareth to haue bene throwghe the fauour off the Emperour Martian For what if he reuoked his heresie there as he had I thinck done before in the Councel off Constantinople yet as I haue shewed there was no cause why he should be trusted with suche a greate charge no not in the D. iudgemēt I suppose so soudenlie and withowt further triall Which I say not to discredite his trew repentance and learned writinges but onely to shew how totteringlie the D. Archbishop is set Where I alledged that the Emperour Theodosius and Valētinian cōmaunded him to kepe him to his ovvne church onely his answere is fond that the Emperours meaning was that he should not come to the Synode For are these two all one to kepe him self to his ovvne churche onely and not to come to the Synode When he might come to the synode althowghe he kept not him selfe to his owne churche onely which he could not haue done yf they had bene all one Where he saithe yt appeareth that the Emperour gaue that charge that he should not come vnto the Synode but called yt maketh nothing to the pourpose For that may well stand with that I alledged off his keping to one churche onely And in dede there had bene small wisdome to haue forbidden him the Councell in respecte off the heresie he laboured off and yet to haue suffred him to gouerne such a mightie people When I expounded tares hipocrites I had not the booke before me but trusting therin to Theodoretes knowledge in the scripture estemed that he meant them off whom the parable is vnderstanded that is those off whose ether corruption in life or doctrine the churche can haue no certeine knowledge to procede againste or to giue as he did sentence vpon Neither is he yet purged off the suspicion considering that yt can hardly be belieued that ther was not in 800. churches one onely heretike And if ther were
the way whom I iudged to be owt to light him a candle whom I saw in this poinct to grope in darcknes And if I did yt sharper then your tast can like off beside that bitter thinges are often wholesomer then sweet yow should not thinck muche to be stricken with the back off the sword which haue smitten others with the edge nor to be lightlie pricked vvith some empaire off your credit vvhich haueÌ„ thrust others throwgh in taking from them so muche as lay iâ— yow al opinion both of godlines and learning Yow doubt whether I meant good faith when I called yow a brother take heed lest in giuing no credit vnto others yow leaue no place for others to giue any to yow And if I had offended in these yet my vnthaÌ„kfulnes can not be great Yow neuer gaue me any thing in my bosome or secretly what yow haue giuen by sound off trump and openly can not be hidden But my reproches and as yow often cal them gybes can not be excused yt is not meet that I should my self sit in iudgement off my owne modestie yt ys vnreasonable also that yow the partie grieued should For as selfeloue may blinde mine eyes and as parents in their children not onely cause me not to see the blemishe but also to thinck yt an ornament so may displeasure dasel yours and cause your iudgement to decline to muche on the one side My conscience doÌ„th not hetherto accuse me in this behalfe others also whom this hath misliked vvil peraduenture be more fauourable if it be first considered that yow account diuers for pleasant speaches which are not therby to auoide that yow could not answer Of which sort is that 767. line 6. and 576. line 23. Secondly if yt be considered that yow take some thinges otherwise then I vvrote them For example where I note your homelie mirth of the curst wife and theef which stole the priests purse to haue bene vvith the baggipe and not vvith ether the harpe or lute yow expound it as thowghe I had taken my self to the countrey wherin yow were born Which verely I ment not but had regard onely to the greke prouerb wherof Tully maketh mention that those vvhich could not come to the honour to handle the harpe vvere content to vse the bagpipe Which is euident in that I oppose countrey not your countrey your mirthe to learned mirth Here also seemeth should be considered how yow haue â—oden vs vvith those reproches vvhich yow accuse me of Wherin not to waste paper in rehersall of all I will onely giue a tast of your later book for that off your other boke in which all know your intemperancie yow denie there is any suche thing because I gathered yt not Adders and Sepentes swarme amongest yovv pag. 50. A mind ful of reuengement 799. Ould rancour 2. Stomackes suche and arrogancy so great 12. Stomacke swelling 109. Boiling 56. Spirit of yowrs bursteth 37. He swelleth like the sea 423. Reueale that lump off arrogancye and ambition 467. deep dissembled hypocricie 467. A face puffed vp with arrogancy and vaineglorie 799. Maner off writing spitefull malitious contemptuous owtragious 12. Arrogant 32. Scoulding 12. pratling 512. lying 467. A shameles and wicked lie 422. Tonges vnnatural 6. VVauering wicked wretched 422. Hoat eloquence 409. Hoate Rhetoricke 45. Cynicall Rhetoricke 391. Lucians Rhetorick 489. Figure off lying 812. VVhether will this venemous mouthe reache 445. VVordes serpentine and viperous 422. He bloweth owt stormeth against me 56. Roreth like a Lyon 423. Off a diuine become a scorneful iester 577. Your veine off gybing and iesting 25. Flowting 91. Arrogant scoffs and frumpes 336. Heathnish floutes and frumpes 470. Boke pestered with moe stoutes and iestes then hardinges VVhat dronken poet prophane Philosopher or boy off grammer schole knoweth not c. 151. Heathnish confuting 25. Babishe abusing scripture 262. VVilfull deprauing 16. Conuicted wickednes 56. The Archbishop hathe cause to thanck yow for your gentilnes 374. A daunsing deuise 337. Suche a mightie man in scripture and so profound in all knowledge pag. 9. I suppose yow vse them as meanes to cast vp your melancholy which yow call zeale 39. But soft man a while yow do but dreame 209. Let him take all these wherof diuers are often repeated and if he be ashamed off them hide them yet for any word off reproche I haue vsed in either off my bookes I will finde both moe and more bitter in his later boke wheroff I haue not once made mention Where also it owght not to be forgotten how his second boke is as heauie with this kind off stuffe as his first yf not haeuier They say it is better to be beaten second because the hardnes off angre is commonly broken vpon the first But yt seemeth the Answerer dronck in more off his angre then he powred forth Lastly let it be considered whether his answers are for the most part so ridiculous that if he which is said to haue wept so muche had replied vpon him he could easelier haue houlden hoat coles in his mouth then haue absteined from those salt sayinges which he so sore complaineth off Here I omit that the scripture doth diuers times vse this kinde off reprehending Also that the most modest spirit off all the auncient writers not permitteth onely but as yt were exhortethe to a mercifull kinde off deriding So that the mind being pure the thing yt self vsed moderately to discredit sin can not be condemned His accusations vvhich touche the cause follow vvhere abbridging the magistrates autoritie often repeted but neuer proued shall be seen in the proper places There shall appeare that I haue browght it into no smaller roum then the vvord off God hath shut it and the best learned and godliest writers both nwe and ould haue plainly taught of yt In which point let yt be also here obserued how there be no wordes so fenced against all cauils vvhich the D. vvill not assay to depraue For vvhere I cited examples to proue that men are said to doo thinges wherof they are the cheif and principall and not the onely doers and amongest them alledged that off Moses which appointed officers by the peoples consent he feareth not to say that I therby pushe at the ciuil magistrat aÌ„d infinuat that the prince may not appoint vnder officers without the peoples election But let him answer what is the instrument wherwith I will not say I pushe but so much as towche yt with my litle fingar ys it because I say those gouernours were chosen with consent of the people the scripture as is after shewed doth manifestly proue yt Or did I euer teache it in pulpit mention it in disputation defend it in talk wherby these wordes might with more likelihood be haled vnto suche a sense what would this man haue done trow yow if I had as Maister Bullinger doth vpoÌ„ that place of Moses concluded that the
the godly reader TO all here in controuersie coÌ„sidering they are barely said without proof yf they be affirmations one yea yf they be denials one nae shall be enowgh seing they are all handled at large in this book Except that off ceremonies vsed in popery wheroff how vntrwly he speaketh when he saith that the reiecting off them standeth vpon this that we may not vse in any wise or in any consideration reteined in the church any thing that hath bene abused vnder the Pope both hath manifestly in my former book and further shall God willing in the later part off my reply appear Answer to his two Tables wheroff the first is intitled off daungerous pointes off doctrine the other off vntrwthes and falsified autorities conteined in my reply AFter I had ended my book and was entred vpon the preface I receiued a treatise called An examination off M. Doctor VVhitgiftes censures conteined in tvvo Tables set before his book intituled the defence of the ansvver to the admoni Wherof as I was glad for the truthes safe which shall receiue strenght by yt so I was sory that I receiued yt no sooner for that it might both haue cased me off muche labor and haue serued me for a good direction in those places which might seem to require a larger defence then the shortnes yt foloweth would receiue And as those off the churche which acknowledg this trwth so I especially for whose support I take yt was written hartely thanck the autor and desire the reader to vse yt for a supply where my answer doeth not satisfy him Whiche answers off myne so far as I haue hetherto gone he shall finde after this sort In the firste Table The first Article becawse yt was not lincked with any particuler cause in controuersie I pourposed to answer in this place but now I will rest in the answer which is made The 2. is answered page xlij line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix li. 14. The 6. page xcv l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij li. 21. For the 8. I refer my self to the foresaid treatise especially considering that I haue passed by that whole Tractate The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij lin 6. The 14. page ccclj li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij li. 37. In the second Table The first is answered page viij li. 22. The 2. page ix li. 26. The 3. page lxij li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij lin 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx ij l. 29. The 7. page cxcj li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtil suppression is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth vpon Illiricus whom I named the autor off that report yf yt be not in the Code The 9. is answered page cclv li. 16. The 10. page cclvj li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij li. 7. The 16. page ccc li. 33. The 18 pa. cclxâ—x li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij li. 33. The 24. page diiij li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij li. 11. The 27. dlxx li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj li. 36. The 30. page dcxv li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle The 33. page dcxlj li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered in the second part off my reply The replye vnto the answer pag. j. c. FOr the foure fyrst sectyons being either false accusations bare repetitions off my wordes or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse I will not answer His fifte section answerethe not any thinge to diuers reasons which I haue set downe to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder whose whole worke is that nothing be donne owte off place owte off tyme besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged why this doctine which we mainteine can not be thowght enemy vnto princes seing yt was a freende to princes when princes where enemies vnto it For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders the choise off the ministers by the churche the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate and are in controuersie betweene vs were in the tymes off the Apostells when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power And where he saithe it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause which is trewly spoken off the gospell he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell and therfore to haue a comon cause so that in the repulse of the discipline the gospell receiueth a checke That the discipline off the church is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed is disputed in the second tractate and in her seueral partes thorowe out the whole booke That the distinction off the common welthe and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men which haue spokeÌ„ or written with any Iudgement shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions yet the reader shall once for all looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion to no purpose with greate wordes with no proofe Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte he complaineth of my obscuritie and that he can not vnderstande what I meane wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache if I had bente my selfe therunto For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition reprehension suspension c. the lesser faultes off lying vncomely iesting and cholericke speaking being met with all the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte adultery and murder Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling For here vppon he asketh whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte and murther sharpe enowghe with diuers other which folow vnto all
men doo see that I had Good cause to charge yow as I did And euen now yowr answer which yow make is expresly againste that which yow haue written before For yow affirme that the lordes daie is in the nomber off those which not to obserue or once to call in question is meere madnes But in your former booke after recitall of the lordes daye and other thinges which yow accounte indifferente yow close vp which this sentence that there is none so simple which vnderstandethe not that the churche hathe authoritie in those matters Yf yt be mere madnes for the churche not to obserue the lordes daye how hathe the churche authoritie in that case And yf yt maye not once moue question off it how can yt take order in yt your manner off speeche wherby yow would goo betweene thes two sentēces and helpe to set at one suche manifest contrarieties are absurde for yow saie that the continuance off the lordes daye so longe doothe proue yt necessarie to be obserued and yet add that yt maye be altered vpon great and especiall considerations wheras if it be necessary to be obserued it may not be altered And if yt maye be altered then it is not necessarie Wherby appearethe how trewly I gathered off your wordes which yow can not auoyde withowte suche senseles speeches Against that which I saide off Ecclesiasticall discipline instituted in the 18 off S. Mathew for contemners and neglecters off the worde and common praiers yt is saide and saide with greate wordes that that place is to be vnderstanded off secret and particuler faultes and not off open and knowne Wheras yt is more then manifest that if the scripture giueth authoritie to reprehende priuate faultes yt doothe myche more authorise to rebuke publike faultes And if those faultes which are doone againste one man miche more those which are doone against the whole churche And iff those which are doone againste the profit off men myche more against those which are doone againste the glorie off god And if vppon refusall off Admonition in those particuler and secrete cases he will haue the churche procede to excommunication how myche more will he that that proceeding be obserued in thes open faultes And yt ys to childishe thus continually to stumble at this that the wordes off the scripture shoulde haue no farther reache then to that speciall case wheroff expresse mention is made in the texte and to leaue no place to argumentes off like of more to the les off les to the more of contraries c. and therbie to cut off all meditation off the worde of God to destroye a greate parte off the vse off teachinge in the churche Albeit in folowinge his owne interpretation the contemners or neglecters off the worde and praiers maye well be subiecte to this rule for it maye come to pas that one maye contemne the worde c. And yet in that manner as it shall be known wne onely vnto one what opinion he norishethe of them yet because that is not alwaies let vs see further what vnskilfulnes it is which the A. doothe so greatly accuse in this allegatiō Saint Paul grounding him selfe vpon this place off our Sauiour doubted not to drawe forthe the authoritie he had to excōmunicate against the incestuous mā whiche was notoriously knowne to haue offended the whole cōgregation ād Hymineus which had corrupted the puretie off the doctrine And iff the A. saie trewly that that doctrine off our Sauiour Christ touching excommunication may be caryed no farther then to that case off priuate and secret iniuries then Saint Paul drewe the sworde and tawght to drawe yt where yt owght not And althowghe there be no mention made off the admonitions yet they muste be off necessitie presupposed forasmiche as it was not lawfull to haue proceeded to that extremitie off cuttinge off by excommunication if the offenders had lefte any place to admonitions and wolde haue suffered themselues to haue bene cured by gentler medicines What also that Saint Paul vpon the publike admonition which he gaue vnto certeine offenders menaceth them that if they admit not his admonitions and reprehensions he will not spare them doothe he not in those wordes giue them the threat off excommunication And if he doo ▪ then yt is cleare that those admonitions being publike were off publike and knowne faultes wherby folowethe that this rule off admonishing and reprehending are forerunners vnto excommunication euen in publike faultes And as he here fighteth against a manifeste trewthe so he hathe himselffe for aduersarie which affirmeth that againste an heretike bothe thes two admonititions which oure sauiour Christe speakethe of and the excommunication afterward owghte to be practised oneles he will saie that an heretike which is knowne to one onelie owght so to be hādled ād that he which is notoriously knowne owght to be free frō that censure The place of M Caluin is altogeter frō the pourpose for I doo not say that priuate admonitions ought to be applied vnto publike offences the Apostell of thē giueth order that suche offenders shoulde be rebuked openly Onely I saide that for contempte and neglecte off the wordes I might haue said for euerie faulte that tendeth either to the hurte of the neighbour or to the hinderaunce off the glory off God there be prescribed in the worde off God admonitions and reprehensions and if those will not serue excommunications but whether the admonitions and reprehensions shoulde be priuate or publike that thinge hanging vpon the qualitie and kinde of the faulte I affirmed nothing Now let vs see what reuel he maketh with the ciuil Discipline appointed by the lawe of God Where before he can giue one answer he muste aske three questions the firste is answered before in the beginninge the laste is handled afterwarde in the 6. Ch. and 5. diuision And as for that parte of the seconde questiō vvhich withe other his sainges folowing surmise that I woulde haue the negltcte of the worde punished by deathe yt is directly against my expresse wordes which hauing shewed the punishementes that shoulde be executed vpon contemners add that there are other punishementes for those which neglecte the worde c. And as to that parte off his question which is whether contemners off the worde owght to be put to deathe yt is as his other questions be of thinges not onely affirmed and set downe but disputed off bothe partes For this is that which we plainlie affirme and bringe argumentes to proue And when he that despiseth the worde of God despiseth God himselfe the equitie of this muste needes appeare vnto all those in whome there is but a corne off the zeale and looue of the glorie off God or rather in whō there is not some pleasure to see the glorie of God troden vnder feete But he saithe that the place off Moses off putting Idolaters vnto deathe maketh nothing to proue this The reason wherof he assignethe to be
obserued The first proposition is manifest considering that the statutes off the Apostels are the statutes off Christ the seconde is Augustines allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true then the third must needes be This being thus gathered that which I added that therupō yt folowed that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures is thus concluded That which doothe not conteine all the will off God necessarie for vs to doo conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation but the scripture by Aug and the d. conteinethe not all the will off God necessary for vs to doo therfore the scripture by Aug. and the d conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation The first proposition is manifest in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude towards the Ephes alledgeth that he had taught them all the will off God the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells not conteined in the worde off God that being necessarie yt must folowe that some necessarie thing for vs to doo is not conteined in the worde And where the A. saithe that neither Aug. nor he say that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie that it may not be altered vpon iust occasion by suche as haue autoritie he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte withe faste and loose at his pleasure For if they be statutes off the Apostels and commended vnto the churches what autoritie is there vppon earthe whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed and iff it be madnes as he saith afterward owte off Augustin not to obserue them or once to reason off them how can they take order in them And this answer is ouerthrowne by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly But other things saith he vvhich are varied by regions as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye some doo not c. are at libertie to bo obserued neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes then to do as the churche doothe vvhere he comethe Where it is manifest that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels and ther statutes receiued by tradition vnto those thinges whiche are in the churches power to ordeine and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes to the order off the churche They being therfore in this opposed the one beinge in the churches power the other are nor the one being of that sorte that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them a man may saflie obey the other muste needes be off that sorte that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them then the Apostels that a man may not safely obey And in the nexte sentence the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto he calleth indifferent and therby giueth to vnderstande that he tooke them for vnindifferent and hitherto perteineth that he alledgeth owt off August in Zuinglius name and is found in his booke against the Donatistes where yt ys said that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie Which is more then if he had said giuen by the Apostels considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions which M. Caluin speaketh off but they were neuer left vnto the church with an Apostolical autoritie Which autoritie is off the higheste nature and proceding from the higheste court that can be And that this was Augustines meaning appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged out of his booke againste the donatistes Where he saithe that all those thinges vvhich the churche houldeth generally are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels althovvghe they be not vvriten wherunto he answereth nothing And by that place the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste is more plainly discouered For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely which perteine to order and politie that may be varied and not vnto doctrine yt is manifest that Augustin in that place saithe that the Apostels gaue commaundement tovvching the not rebaptising off those vvhiche vvere baptized by Heretikes and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing vvhich vvas obiected against Cyprian had the beginning off the Apostels tradition Nowe I would knowe off the answerer whether he dare saye that this iudgement off rebaptizing be off traditions which may be chaunged or whether there can be any iust cawse wherefore this may be altered And if he dare not saye this then let him confesse his faut and not seeke to make vp his breaches by sutche vntempered morter Where I saye that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour off traditions all their beggery he answereth that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes considering that the Pope hath nether at all tymes nor in all places bene receiued Where to let pas that to helpe him selfe he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule he towcheth not the point off the cause For in that onely that it is saide that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church not cōteined in the word of God is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke which the church hath to defend yt selfe against the Popishe beggerie and all other corruptions Which bullwarke is that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church is conteined in the worde off god yff this be once shaken there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church against this assaut For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood which hath bene generally and from the Apostels times receiued yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point and to haue taken vp or reteined off that which yt had before some thing not deliuered by the apostels it can be no sufficiēt bar to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes to saie that the church hath ether doon or not doon so and so sythēs the Apostels tymes And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels which haue bene so generally receyued yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions as he pretendeth For this thing standing that there are cōmaundemēts giuen of the Apostels not cōteined in the word of god they may thrust in thinges which haue not had that generall and continuall obseruation For althowghe Aug. saie that they are the traditiōns of the Apostles which are generally receiued yet he dooth not saie that they onely are and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued might haue an easye replye that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing considering that
into the churche and make off the hande and the eie vvhiche are twoo members but one Vnles yow vvill saie that he that is promoted from one Ecclesiasticall degree vnto another kepethe the same still vvhich he had before he vvas promoted by which reason the bishope and the Archbishope are deacons also because they sometimes had that degree And then yt is required off them that they doe the offices off all those functions the names Wheroff they beare for there are no idle and voide names in the churche whiche can be seuered from doinge the dewties that those titles require And it is as if a man passinge from one office or dignitie in the common wealth vnto an other vntill he come to the highest beinge in that office or dignitie shoulde be saide still to haue all the vnder offices and dignities by the vvhich he hathe passed And not that onely but vvhen a man from priuate estate is called ether to office in churche or common welth together with the publike parson vvhiche he hath gotten he kepeth his priuate estate still Yt hathe bene sometimes I graunte that either throwghe ignorance off the institution of God or throwghe ambition of some which desire to haue all in their owne handes or vpon some extreme necessitie the pastor hathe donne that whiche belongeth to the office off a deacon and contrariwise But althowghe I should graunte that one might be ordeined to be bothe Pastor and Deacon whiche is as monstruous in Theologie as yt is in nature that one and the same shoulde be halfe a man and halfe a woman yet yow helpe not your selfe that way For in sayinge that he may be a minister of the worde yow confesse that he may be also none but a deacon onely whereoff also there are examples i◠in our churche Last off all those Archedeacons which haue the degree off a pastor in our churche do not examine by that they are Pastors but onely in respecte that they be Archedeacons And so whether he be pastor or deacon together or deacon onely the disorder remaineth still that the inferior and he whose callinge is contented with smaller giftes is made iudge off his sufficiency whiche is superior and vvhose callinge requirethe greater giftes Whether the Archedeacon haue the examination committed vntho him onely I referre me vnto the booke off ordering ministers and to that whiche I haue before alledged Here I vvould haue the reader mark that this disorder of ordeininge ministers at the testimonie off an Archedeacon came from Rome as Ierome bothe notethe and confuteth This reason is altogither different from the seconde For althowghe he were by neuer so many and neuer so well examined yet were it vnlawfull for the Bishop to admit him as this third reason dothe suppose that is to saie vppon the credit of the Archedeacon vvithovvt his ovvne knovvledge vvhiche I doo not gather off the wordes off the Archedeacons presentation as yow would make me but off the answere of the bishop Take heede that the persons vvhom yovv present vnto vs be apte and meete for their godly conuersation to exercise their ministeri devvly to the honor off God and edifyinge off the churche vvhich vvordes vvhether they haue that sense vvhiche I alledge I leaue to all men to iudge off the forme off the vniuersities presentation helpethe yow not because there is no suche answere made by them againe vnto the presenter vpon whiche I grounde my argument and yt maketh muche against yow For I dowte not but that forme of presentation by some one of that facultie wheroff the presented person is was therfore browght in because neither all the vniuersitie to whom he is presented nor the vicechauncelor off whom he is to be admitted can allwaies take knowledge off his sufficiency for the degree he asketh As the vicechancelor beinge a lawier neither he nor diuerse other off the vniuersity off them selues are able to iudge whether he be meete to practise in phisike but are driuen to stay vpon the faithe off the presenter so that yow likening herein the Archedeacons presentation to the vniuersities doo therby confirme that bishops admittance is oftentimes suspended off the trust of the Archedeacon I would yow had that reuerence of the holie scriptures that yow pretend often we should then passe this controuersic easely But for the place wheroff it is said I make a shipmans hoose yt shall be seene how trwly yow haue spoken For the declaration wheroff I take the 10. verse off that chap. For when S. Paul saith let them first be tried and then minister yt is as muche as he should saye that he should not applie them to the ministery before they were tried Whereupon I conclude that if that place commaunde Timothe that he shoulde not applie any to the ministerie before triall the same implieth that he should trie them for so muche as any other mans triall withowt his owne is no triall wherupon he might proceede to the applyinge of them to the ministery especially considering that otherwise he should offend against that which he forbiddeth in another place off sodeine laying on of handes And if it be said that it is to be vnderstanded of the deacons the answere is that iff he commaunde that off the deacons election muche more he requirethe it in the Bishops And wheras he saithe I am still contrary to my selfe I aske him wherin In that forsoothe I therby conclude that the bishop should be the examiner where did I euer denie it But if he thinke any thinge grow vnto the lord bishops or that therfore the bishopp alone may examine and ordeine because I graunt that he hathe interest in booth he hathe ouercast the summe is not so great To shew that the same owght to be the examiners that are the chusers it is sufficient to haue shewed it in one the law beinge the same in all which is in one That it can not be restreined vnto Timothy alone which S. Paul commaundeth him to doo and that he was no bishop but an Euangelist shal be handled hereafter Yow that charge me with contrarietie wher there is no coulor must be here this second time admonished off off this faulte in this short section for in affirminge not once nor twise that those thinges which touche the election is that epistle are spoken vnto Timothe alone yow affirme that plainly whiche yow denie vnto me that is that S. Paul maketh the same the ordeiners and examiners Salamon saith that all the vvordes of the mouthe off god are plaine to him that vvill vnderstand and streite to them that vvould finde knovvledge Wherfore I meruaile not if the answer because be would so faine haue a broad vvay wher he may driue a sumpter horse and is nor contēt with the lordes path waie finde many difficulties and stoppes But alas what paines he taketh in liftinge at a fether And of the three difficulties that are here moued two of them whiche are towchinge triall
common wealthes that euer were I haue shewed generall commaundementes to the contrarie therfore vnles yow can shewe them repealed by a contrarie acte they are still in force For the examples off S. Peter and S. Paule here tediously repeated I haue answerrd before at lardge Towching the wyping a waie off Ambrose example I did it firste in place which yowr glosse denieth For prouing that no newe conuerte should be chosen to the ministerie allthowgh our Sauiour Christe did chuse S. Paule Ambrose example stoode in the waie and therfore I gaue him in deede the wipe but it was with the sworde off god His choise was also againste the allowed practise off the churche if yow knowe whose voice this is yester daie cathechised to daie a bishop Where he merueilethe that so plaine a precepte off S. Paule is not kepte and callethe them sodaine and momentany minsters whiche are so made And albeit that some differred their baptisme longe after their conuersion and in deede to the time off deathe yet yow doo not shewe that Ambrose was in that â—â—â—ber If he were yow fasten therby greater ignorance vppon him then I haue doone who yow saie speake contemptuously off hym Besydes it is one thing not to be baptized and another thinge to be catechumenus For those whiche were not baptized beinge sufficiently instructed were admitted to the supper off the lorde but in that yt is saide Ambrose vvas Cathecumenus is declared that he was not yet sufficiently instructed in the principles of religion Whatsoeuer yt is I saie yt coulde not be withowte great disorder that a man shoulde be chosen gouernour off the cytie whiche had neuer tasted off the water theroff I knowe Ambrose was a notable man and learned in humaine knowledge yet I mighte withowte either greate disgrace or any contempte saie that whiche I saide And yf this were the place for it I coulde easely shewe vppon howe good grownde I saide that it had bene safer for the churche he had bene better instructed in the scriptures before he occupied the place off Doctor Whereunto I coulde vse his owne testimonie whiche saithe that he was constrained to teache that whiche he himselffe had not learned Albeit he is constrained to agree to that whiche is affirmed yet for the great desire he hathe to strike at me he woulde wreste this epistle owte of my handes then the whiche there can be nothinge more plaine For Cyprian reasonethe againste Fortunatius chalenge off his bishoppricke after that he had fallen to Idolatrie by the generall rule that none owghte to be admitted vnto the ministrie whiche had so fallen And therfore almoste in the beginninge off the Epistle he chargeth him that he dare chalenge vnto him the ministerie vvhiche he hathe betraied as thovvgh yt vvere lavvfull after hauing bene at the alter off the deuil to come vnto the alter of god And after he had shewed the horrible punishementes that the lorde God willed they should be punished with that faulted that waies he addeth Seing therfore the lorde threateneth suche tormentes and punishementes in the daie off his vvrathe to suche as obey the diuel and sacrifice to idoles hovve can he thinke that he maie doo the office off the minister off God vvhiche hathe obeied and serued the prie stes off the diuel or hovve dothe he thinke that his hande can be translated to the sacrifice and praier off the lorde vvhiche vvas captiue to sacriledge and to suche a crime Off thes wordes and diuers other in that epistle yt is euideÌ„te that he dothe not therfore seclude Fortunat. onely becawse he did not repente but becawse yt was not lawfull for those that had sacrificed c. to be restored vnto their mynisterie And therfore he purge the hym selfe and his fellowes in an other place off that he was supposed to haue receiued Trophimus to the ministrie and otherwise then a laye man althoughe yt be there declared that Trophimus did submitte him selfe in all humilitie vnto the churche Wherfore hathe he browghte in here that there was certaine tyme off repentance appointed in Cyprians time c. doothe anye bodie denie yt or maketh yt any thinge to his purpose That whiche he he shoulde haue proued he to wchethe not For againste that he saide Off the examples off the primatiue churche in restoringe off those vnto their mynisterie whiche had fallen vnto Idolatrie I haue shewed the vse off the moste ancientest tymes and he bringeth nothinge at all but onely affirmeth those thinges which no man deniethe and make nothing to the purpose The councell off Carthage whiche ordeined that none mighte be receiued againe to the ministerie which had defyled him selfe with Idolatrie is here reiected the reason whereoff is also added for that the same Concell decreed rebaptizing off those whiche were baptized by Heretikes The Ans maye throwe awaye the authoritie off a councell because of an error in yt withowte either scripture Doctor or councell when I doo yt not withowte either all thes authorities or at the leste off the scripture yt is cried owte againste as an vnlearned shifte and I can not tell what But I am contented yow shall throwe a waie the councell off Carthage which established that error yet yow shall not throwe awaie that wherin it was agreed againste restoring off ministers fallen into Idolatrie How so Because they were decreed in seuerall councels For profe theroff I alledge the wordes off Cyprian And when there be other boothe many and greuous faultes where withe Basilides and Marshal are inwrapped such doo in vaine goo abowte to occupie the place off a bishoppe Seing yt is manifeste that suche men may not gouerne the churche off Christe nor offer vp sacrifices vnto god Especially when off late boothe withe vs and with all the bishoppes in the worlde euen Cornelius also our fellow in ministerie peacable and iuste and whom the lorde vouchesafed the honor off a Martyr decreed that suche men mighte be admitted to repentance but shoulde notwithstanding be kepte froÌ„ the honor of the clergy or ministrie Of this place I conclude that forsomuche as the Councell of Carthage was prouinciall as that whiche was gathered off the bishoppes off Africke Mauritania and Numidia and this generall as that whiche was assembled of all the bishops of the worlde that the councell wherin this was determined is not the same whiche determined rebaptization Againe at this councell Cornelius was and gaue his consente at the other he was not neither woulde euer giue his coÌ„sente And so also is answered that whiche yow cite owte of the seconde booke off Cyprian and firste epistle that for so muche as the councell that there is spoken off was in Stephanus time the bishoppe off Rome it can be by no means vnderstanded off this councel that decreed againste the restitution of the ministers whiche had fallen vvhiche vvas holden before his time Therfore the councell there spoken of was but a
and by the expresse mouthe off God I see not what man coulde put him owte off yt withowte the same authoritie whiche put him in Laste off all it is verie probable that vvhere yt is saide in an other place that Moses stood vp and praied for Aaron then Moses receiued answere what shoulde be doone withe Aaron towchinge his continuance in the ministerie Where yowr glosse in the ende supposeth contrarietie seinge yt settethe downe none I haue not to answere yt may be the A. lawghed vvhen he vvrote that vvherby he requireth sincere dealing in the scriptures For if this be sitting in his mouthe vvhich corrupteth in a manner all he toucheth vvhy should not also a light housewiffe talke of the chastitie off a graue matrone The nexte diuis belonging vnto the 6. Tract off vnpreaching ministers shall there God vvilling be answered Off election off Ministers vn voices or other consente off the people Chap. 4. pag. 155. IF Chrysostome had had anie thinge to saie towching the election off Deacons he shoulde haue spokē vvhen tyme was and when that place was handled Yet for answere the reader maye vnderstand that Chrysost in that place makethe comparison betwen the election in the firste off the Actes and this and sheweth howe the Apostels did otherwise there then here For there they chose two vvhiche they set vpp before the churche So that vvhen Chrysost saithe the Apostels myght haue chosen the deacons yt may be he meaneth they might haue chosen them as they did the two Mathias and Barsabas In whiche choise I haue shewed the consente off the people was required Yff there were but this place whiche the D. citeth I woulde stande vpon this answer but considering that Chrys in another place affirmeth that Peter might haue chosen him selfe which I would not kepe from the knowledge off the reader I will not denie but that Chrysost might haue heere the meaning the D. supposeth Wherto as I can by no meanes agree vpon the reasons both before and after alledged so the D. is not helped For when Chryso commendeth Peter that he did all thinges by the aduise off the churche nothing off his ovvne autoritie nothing vvith dominion When he addeth also that the same was to auoide contention and that nether he nor the reste off the Apostles should be thovvght to chuse off fauour he declareth sufficiently that there is no bishop of that ether authoritie or holines off life vvhich in making the election without consente of the church dooth not bothe laie him selfe and his ministery open to suspiciō of parcialitle and giue occasion off pernicious debates in the churche He shoulde also vnderstande that this proportion is vneuen and that if yt were granted whiche he desyrethe yet he is not where he woulde be For iff it were lawfull for the Apostels indued with extraordinarie giftes off discretion off spirites to chuse yt foloweth not therfore that one Bishopp may doo so And because yt was lawfull for the 12. Apostels to chuse them withe whome they were dailie conuersante therfore it is lawfull for one bishoppe to chuse those whiche he neuer see nor knewe before Before I goo any further yt is to be obserued that althowghe the Ans holde owte in the defense off this cawse off election by the Bishope certeine wordes of learned mē racked from their meaninge and contrarie to the continual practise off the authors yet the trwthe is that as this assertion is the Papistes and Papistes againste the Protestantes so all his principall bothe argumentes and solutions haue bene worde for worde ministred vnto him owte off the bokes off the ranckeste enemyes off the trwthe Yff the reader will see this question diducted at large betwene the catholikes and the papistes let hym reade Hosius and Phigius in thes bokes which I haue noted I will onely note the places whēce the Ans argumētes are fetched with his startinge holes vvherwithe he vvoulde abuse the worlde And firste off all Marsilius a Catholike whome the lorde had stirred vpp to mainteine the trwthe off the Gospell Aboute the time off Pope Iohn the 12. disputinge againste the sole election off the bishope vsethe this reason whiche wee haue heere in hande namelie that forasmuche as the churche chose here Deacons as it appearethe in the Actes therfore yt owghte muche more chuse her mynisters This reason Phigius as the D derideth no more hable to answer yt then he The manifeste wordes off the texte are that Paule and Barnabas ordeined elders by voces neither is there any learned and godlie man browghte or as Iam perswaded can be browghte that euer denied that the churches were in election off their ministers ioyned with Paul and Barn. That Zuingl saithe some were called to the ministerie off the worde by the Apostels onely what is yt to proue that Paule and Barnabas did here in this place ordeine myinisters withowte the voices off the churche yt is well therfore M Zuing. hath expressed whiche the D. hathe vnfaithfully holden backe who translatinge whole pages to no purpose coulde not here aforde vs one poore sentence off the lengthe off two lines The other halfe off the sentence is this As saithe he vvhen by the decree off the Apostels Peter and Iohn vvere sente vnto Samaria Marcke I beseche yow what manner of election this was The Apostels chose two but suche as were approued mynisters before what is this to proue that the byshope maie chuse those whiche were neuer approued or chosen vnto the ministrie The Apostels chose them to goe an embassage whiche shoulde be ended in a fewe daies and what is that to proue that a bishoppe maie chuse to a perpetuall function The Apostels did yt withowte the consente off that churche vnto whiche that matter did not belonge what is that to proue that the bishope maie chuse a minister withowte the consente off that churche whiche that election dothe concerne for that electiō belonged not vnto the churche of Ierusalem where they were if yt had there is no doubte but the Apostels woulde not haue doon yt withowte the cōsente therof I leue here to speake of the difference of bishop and Apostel off twelue and one whiche beinge obserued in the former section needeth no rehersall And as this maketh nothinge for the election off the bishope so yt maketh against that for the whiche this place is browghte For iff maister Zuing. had bene off that iudgemente that Paule and Barnabas did by them selues chuse withowte the churche he woulde likely haue browghte that example cōsideringe that this can not be properly called any election to the Mynistrie whiche was off those which were ministers before But that yow may yet better knowe the D. vnfaithfull dealinge ioined with shameles bouldnes off alledging authoritice I will set downe Maister Zwinglius iudgemente in this cause which he vttereth in diuers places off that booke owte off whiche the D. hathe alledged this but most manifestly within les
honour and gaine in Archbishoprickes bishoprickes and other such poisons off the ministery is oftentimes beaten backe by dispaire that they shall not atteine to that gaine which desired as they thincke off many can be obteined but off few He that is willing his sonne should serue in the estate off a Minister and looketh with a more single eye to the continuence off true religion vnto his posterity yet when he considereth how fewe liuinges there be those excepted wherwith he will not haue his sonne desiled able to mainteine the pastor with his competent howsehold honestly he applieth hym to an other trade of life Wheroff although occasion be gyuen by horrible vnthankefullnes off men which in steed off gyuing some thing into the treasury off the churche haue by their pillage browght her almoste to starck beggery yet that parent shoulde consider that the lord will neuer leaue nor forsake his and that gould and syluer is the Lordes Which seing he fournished to those that in symplicity sought the building off his howse owt off the cofres off heathen Princes he will much les suffer them to want necessaries vnder godly and Christian But this place is plentifully handled in the foresaide booke off discâ—pâ—â—ne I onely because the question was heere off the cause off wâ—nting sufficient pastors towched yt Heere the D. light estimation off the churches saluation and off preaching is notably discouered before he saied that thes reading pastors were taken for necessity now he teacheth that â—f there were sufficient pastors to supply the roumes yet the readers should kepe their places still Yf ye aske why lest forsooth they with their families should goe a begging Heere a whole church is sould for 30 peeces off siluer or rather as I may say for ould shooes For the D. weighing in his skiles whether yt is better that the church should vvant a preaching pastor vvhom God hath ordeined the principall instrument to saue his church by or that the reader vvith his familie should goe a begging hath found the sowlehealth off a whole church farr lighter then the bodely coÌ„modity of one reader with his familie Where he saith yt seemeth that I vvould haue the minister renant at will or by courtesie it is an vntrue surmise For I complaine that thes reading Ministers were not onely placed vntill other might be gotten but had a free hould wherby the sheep are not onely committed to the woulf but the doore sparred also vpon them Where he asketh for the place in which Augustine calleth them woulues that teach not if he haue not the vvord vvoulf yet he speaketh to that effect when vpon the place off Ezechiel I haue gyuen the a vvatchman c. he proueth that he which holdeth his peace murthereth Which also euen the Pope himselfe as loÌ„g as there was but a sparcke of true knowledge confesseth Yf the D. say that his meÌ„ hold not their peace because they reade it is a cauill vnworthy answer As though when the Prophet calleth the rascall ministers off his time domme dogges and suche as could not not barcke his meaning vvere to charge them that they could not spell or reade in a booke off their owne language laied before them And so I trust appeareth that this taile off reading ministers owght to be cut of and that they are none off these princely giftes which our Sauiour Christ ascended into heauen sendeth vnto his church but the bishops to speake no grieuous lier off them more then beggerly presentes But we are not yet at an end For that which the D. can not get in comparing a preaching pastor with a keading he thincketh to obtein in comparing reading with preaching wherunto perremeth his 13 Tract First he mainteineth his vntrue accusation off the Adm. to wching their condemning off reading off scriptures Which in comparing the wordes alledged by the D. with those of the Ad. in ould time the vvord vvas preached novv it is supposed sufficient iff it be redd I commit vnto the readers iudgement And if his vnhonest realing were not euident there because off an other sentence off the Adm. subiect vnto reprehension yet he laieth yt open in the same behauiour to wardes me For althowgh I haue not a word against reading and diuers commendations of yt yet he feareth not with full throat to accuse me as a despiser off reading off the scriptures as companion off the Papistes vngodlines in that behalff Which although he doo often yet further then his reasons gyue occasion he shall neuer gaine off me that I will vouchesafe him a word off answer to all this owtcries After vpon that I say yf I may call hym mynister that can doo nothing but reade which is as indifferent to gyue him the name off a mynister as to take it from him being left betweene bothe the D. according to his ould equity concludeth that I signifie and that plainely how I esteme them for no ministers Which he likewise gathereth for that I say as they call them Wherin I will not deny but there may be occasion gyuen to hym especially that hunteth after yt off that surmise But my meaning was to note how vnworthy they are as off the office so off the name off a Minister off the gospell not to make voide their mynistery such as it is in administration off the Sacramentes which I confesse as in the Popish Preistes baptisme for that they be the publicke officers appointed therunto althowgh vnduely ministred to be the holy Sacramentes off Christ And that this was my meaning might easely haue bene gathered in that I allowing off the administration of Sacramentes by Heretickes so much worse then they as as it is to teach falsely then not to teach at all could by no equall interpretation be iudged to condemne the Sacramentes ministred by them Where I say that albeit the D. cavvse in this point be good that the reading off the scriptures is profitable yet as one be pitched he defileth yt in euill handling he answereth as though I confessed that I misliked the matter well handled onely for that yt was doone by hym which is a shameles vntruth Bucers sentence reading is a kinde off preaching I thincke will not be found and I dowbt not but the D. would haue brought yt if there had bene any So he is destitute off his good autoritie and withall remaineth the absurditie before assigned The sentence set downe owt off Bucer is altogether idle seing the profit off reading the scriptures both publickely and priuately is confessed Where to proue that reading is not so effectual as preaching I alledge S. Paul that one can not beleeue vvithovvt a preacher he answereth that by preaching there is ment all kinde off publishing the gospell by owtward voice but off reason off this exposition ether owt off scripture or any other more then his owne I say he bringeth not a lettre For that he addeth off taking away
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
Timothe a simple bishop as left in one cytie But it is good to obserue by the vvay how the Ans building vvith one hand ouerthroweth vvith the other For let all men that haue but a graine of salt iudge how likely it is that Timothe was Archbishop wheÌ„ so many writers both ould and new yea some in those times that archbishops were speaking of him not one calleth him archbishop but all bishop as in his treatise may appeare but thus their tounges must be confounded that build vpp Babylon As for Titus vvhom Erasmus calleth archbishop to make his autoritie of any vveight he muste needes raise that title ether of some name giuen vnto him in the scripture or of some effect which he was knowen to excute proper to an archbishop or els off some auncient writer But he could not raise it of any title the scripture giueth him there being none such nor off any thing Titus did forasmuch as there is nothing doon off him vvhich the Ans affirmeth not to be commen to euery bishop nothing prescribed to him which was not prescribed to Timothe whom Erasmus calleth simply bishop nor off any auncient vvriter there being none browght nor as I am perswaded can be browght therfore it is cleare that Erasmus calling Titus archbishop hath no weight as one vvhich spake according to the corruption off time vvherin he liued The rest of this diuis is answered before for the next let yt be iudged how yow haue ouerthrowne that alledged towching Timothe and Tite being Euangelistes I will also refer to the readers iudgement what vnlearnednes yt ys to confute autoritie by better autoritie and in vvhat place the D. vvill haue vs receiue mens autoritie vvhen he vvill not haue them controlled by other men How by this meanes he that hath the first place to speake may stop the mouth off all that follow forasmuch as yt shall be vnlawfull for them ether owt off the autors vvhich the first speaker alledged or any other to oppose a contrary sentence How also this being so vnlearnedly doon off me is notwithstanding learned in him which hath vsed it diuers times I leaue also to be iudged how to the pourpose he hath alledged thes examples off Iustice and cheif Iustice seing I helped him with this kinde off diuision and yt might haue easely appeared that my argument vvas that forsomuch as the Scoliast called them simply bishope therfore yt could not be thowght that he esteemed them archbishops vvhich is opposite meÌ„ber in this diuision Last of all how absurdly ys it saied that he which calleth an archbishop a bishop speaketh properly WheÌ„ he that hath litle more then learned his GraÌ„mer knoweth that it is a Trope vvherin the generall is taken for the speciall which is contrary to proper speach To the first reason I haue shewed vvhat mighte lead Erasmus to cal Titus archbishop ouer Crete and not Timothe ouer Ephesus To the seconde I am content that my reason off framing titles according to times be nothing worth yf Erasmus in a matter off diuinitie and hauing the vaile off corrupt tymes to hinder his sighte could not be deceiued which erred in many thinges and in those he sawe was ofte more Cretian theÌ„ Christian The third Erasmus did not gyue Titus a title according to the custome off that age wherin him selfe lyued for that there was then no bishop of Crete â—s there was of Rome when Vincentius lyued ys sensles Consydering that my answer is apparante that in speaking of Titus he applied him selfe to the coustome which had preuailed in all places off calling the bishops off the metrapolitane cyties archbishops which this answer towchech not Let him shewe one approued autor for the name of archbishop or patriarch once onely vsed in Eusebius time or before to note the superioritie off one bishop ouer all his fellowes and wee will all clap our handes vnto him if he can not then yt ys shame to say those names were vsuall in Eusebius tyme. That Nicephorus spake no otherwise off Victor then yow haue set downe yt is all one to me which pourposed to shew that he spake otherwise then ether Eusebius or the trwth would suffer hauing regard vnto the tymes wherin he lyued So that my vntrue reportes off autors are such as they are no more beficiall to my cawse then if I had vsed their very wordes For my answer made vnto Volusianus and Erasmus that men vse to speake and to thincke for the moste parte of thinges past by the measure off thinges present yf yt had no examples to warrant yt with yet yt is so manifest and sensible that I durst barely leaue yt to the conscience off all and yf the D. would gyue the rule of his toung but a litle into the hand of his conscieÌ„ce I dowbt not but he would also confesse yt Howbeit we haue a manifest example in the Centuries which confessing there was no Metropolitane in Cyprians time call him Metropolitane Another in Cornelius whom M. Philpot calleth patriarke of Rome wheÌ„ all know that ther was no patriarke many yeares after him Laste off all when yt happened vnto me to call Cyprian Metrapolitane which am an enemy to that estate as I am also charged therwith by the D. following therin the custome off the tymes which folowed how muche more might that befall to others which had no such combat with that office That next conteining vaine excuses to salue ether his ignorance or his vnfaithfullnes I haue answered His escape that Iames called bishop by Eusebius to whom may be adioined Ierome yet might be Archbishop I haue coÌ„futed The plenty off testimonies for the Archbishop browght now hideth not his pouertie in his fyrst boke for all may know that this haruest cam in sithens For the expositioÌ„ of Ireneus which interpreteh they euery one seuerally yf they seuerally ordeined bishope euery one in his circuit so it be vnderstanded with the churches consent as is before declared I am well content Yf the error off my argument had bene so grosse as yowr sight had perceiued yt I had bin sure to haue heard of yt Whatsoeuer and how many cawses soeuer yow assigne of appoincting an archbishop yet this is a perfect diuision off the subiecte that forsomuch as the Archbishopricke if any owght to be muste needes be both in some person and place not found by thapostels ordination which knewe the best gouernment nether in that person nor place both most fittest and moste likest to receiue yt yt muste folow that yt owght not to be As for yowr exception off the time fyrst yt is your manner that yow might be thowght to haue store off answer to make fowre off one for wheras the tyme and persons to be gouerned the suppression off sectes and peace off the church â–ª are put for seuerall cawses yt ys manifest that one time maketh no difference off gouernement from another
bishop Now let vs see his reasons The first is Celestinus bishop of Rome claimed the hearing of matters in the Africane churches as appeareth by the Africane Councell But how doth he not see that the Councell off Carthage the Canon wheroff I alledged was before that councell His answer therfore is that the Councell off Carthage by way off Propheceye decreed against the ambition off Celestinus not then bishop And althowgh this be absurd yet that which followeth is yet more that this canon should be to prouide againste the ambition of the bishop of Constantinople which chalenged the name off vniuersall bishop about two hundred yeares after this canon made To vnderstand faultes so particularly and prouide remedies so especiall against them before they be requireth a higher watch tower then any councell off bishops could euer clyme into And as for the Africane councell nether in the wordes alledged by the D. nor any other off that Councell doth it appeare that the Bishop off Rome claimed the title off vniuersall bishop But as Iulius bishop off Rome had doon at the Councell off Antioch he owtreached in claiming the hearing off cawses which perteined not vnto him In which respect the Councell made a speciall chapter that whosoeuer should appeale beyond the seas should not be receiued into communion off any in Africk Which chapter is not the 6. but 92. nether is it off titles and names but off iurisdiction Where he saith there were as hauty names in those times as off Primat and for proof prouoketh vnto the greek copie off that Councell off Carthage there is no aduantage in the Greek copie which onely maketh mencion off one first amongest the bishops and he is greatly deceiued if he think that to be first bishop is as much as to be Prince off Bishops For the Bishop off Rome in respect of the three other Patrigrckes was first yet not their Archbishop but onely had the first place in their meetinges Especially seing the Councell doth flatly forbid that the first bishop amongest them should be called by that name but onely bishop off the first seate For that owt of maister Fox that thes names Archbishop c. are not forbidden by this canon I refer the reader to his owne worckes with this remembrance that I haue shewed in the former booke how Maister Fox counteth thes degrees ambicious As for the name high priest owt of Ignatius if need were it may be shewed both by reasons and autoritie that he is not off that auncientie the D. supposeth Beside that he giueth it not to any one especially but to all a like Affording yow fowre witnesses I allowed yow one to many two off them being counterfaicte And if he will haue parte off those decrees lawfull and parte bastard he muste shew that this was off Samasus owt off some other then off this forger Whether off thes true bishops was firste maketh nothing to this question yt is certein those yow haue alledged are counterfaictes But becawse Ierome which liued in the true Samasus tyme maketh mention off an archdeacon let yt be graunted to the D. which he desyreth doth he thinke that Damasus mouth was so holy that with once naming an Archdeacon he could sanctifie thoffice for euer yes for he was a vertuous learned and godly bishop But I haue shewed that amongest men the beste ground beareth thâ—sseis Yea what if the D. praise wheroff he is so liberall when yt serueth his tourne be to highe and it be found that he was not so godly as he pretendeth what if althowgh the tyraÌ„ny were not so great as in his counterfaicre Damasus time yet this Damasus off whom he would father tharchdeacon spake in the Dragons voice when he shameth not to write that the bishop off Romes sentence was aboue all other to be attended for in a Synode wherby still appeareth how dangerous yt ys to fetche example off gouernement from those times To that I alledged off the names off Acoluthes and Subdeacons c. auncient and yet not conuenieÌ„t he answereth peraduenture they were profitable So the profite off tharchdeacon being yet vpon the die and in dowbt wee muste notwithstanding haue him thruste vpon vs To that off Monkes auncienter then thardeacon he answereth nothing but that yt foloweth not if they were vnlawfull that tharchdeacon is so but yt foloweth well that if the monke with others are antichristian notwithstanding their auncientie that yt is an euill proofe yow vse that the archdeacons c. are not Antichristian becawse they were auncient wherin stand all yowr proofes Wheras he saith his pourpose was onely to shew the antiquitie of thes names and therfore I doo him wrong which require he should haue browght the approbation of thes autors towching them bothe he hath vndertaken to proue that thes names are not against the word and after he concludeth vpon thes restimonies that thes names are not onely auncient but allowed off the beste eldeste worthieste writers and councels So appeareth that my accusatioÌ„ is iuste and that he toke vpon him to great a bourden As for the auncientie off the name Archdeacon yt is not shewed before almoste 400. yeares after Christe which times howe corrupte they were hath in parte and will after more appeare Can there be plainer wordes to proue that the Archdeacon was no minister then those wherby Sozomene putteth difference betwene an Archdeacon and an elder making them seuerall members And where he saith by that reasoâ— the Archdeacon shoulde be no deacon nor the bishop no preiste considering that thes are there likewise distinguished I merueill that he will dally after this sorte For althowgh vnder the name off Deacon and priest tharchdeacon and bishop be comprehended Yet who vnderstandeth not that as when bishop and archbishop are compared together one doth not nor can not comprehend the other so deacon and ArchdeacoÌ„ there expresly compared are opposed members and can not be comprehended one of another For Deacons being deuided into archdeacons and those called by the commen name of Deacons likewise priestes into bishops and which are coÌ„menly called priestes onles we will imagine that Sozome could not tel how to speake we must needes take them for distinct members Further if the ArchdeacoÌ„ be comprehended of any the rest of members in this place it is vnder the Deacons and if he be conteined vnder a priest also then bothe the Deacon which comprehendeth an archdeacon must be conteined vnder priest and Sozome is yet more ridiculous which of one onely coustome hath made fowre Beside that Ierome opposing an archdeacon vnto an arch elder or in yowr language archpriest saying euery church hath her archdeacon and archpriest declareth manifestly that the archdeacon was no priest And by Gregories epistle which writing vnto the archdeacon off a certein church maketh the title vnto the DeacoÌ„ off such a church appeareth that the Archdeacon was not a priest but a Deacon It is
by that Beza writeth vpon thes wordes he gaue all these vvhich belieued in him this dignitie or prerogatiue that they should be called the children off God. Now what this dignitie and preeminence was may easely be seen by that the bishop of Rome hauing preeminence or dignitie ouer the bishop off Constantinopel Alexandria c. had nothing therby more then they sauing onely the first place in their meetinges Seing therfore thes wordes translated to haue power signifie nothing but to haue honour which consisted onely in hauing the highest place by thes wordes off the Councell groweth nothing to the Metropolitan but onely to sit in the highest place at meetinges This may also appeare by the same h Councell where yt is said that if there rise disorder in any churche vvhich is not compounded it ovvght to be decided at the prouinciall Councell which was therfore to be houlden twife euery yeare in which faultes vvere to be corrected not by the Metropolitane but by the bishops together And becawse the Councell here referreth vs to that accoustomed before yt is to be considered what that was so far as we haue testimonie The bishops assembled at Nice browght their quarrels one against an other and offred them to the Emperour which they would not haue doon at least so generally if there had bene any such order taken off referring their debates to the Metropolitan The Emperour likewise receiuing their bils and answering that it perteined not vnto him to decide those matters sendeth them not to their Metropolitanes to be iudged but adiourneth them to the iudgement off god Yet yf there had bene any suche autoritie ecclesiasticall off the Metropolitanes the Emperour as he was very religious in those obseruations would not by all likelihood haue failed in that Likewise writing ioyntly to Alexander bishop and Arius Elder off Alexandria amongeste other thinges he saith it vvas not meet they should rule so great a people being deuided amōge them selues Where it is to be obserued that howsoeuer thes wordes so great a people be taken whether for the churche off Alexandria or for all Agipt c. the Bishop gouerned not alone but by cōsent and aduise of the Elders of that church Then if the Ans will refer this gouernement to the whole countreis off Aegypt Lybia c. and take it in that signification he doth for bearing dominion and commaunding the rest not the bishop onely but euery Elder off Alexandria had commaundement not onely ouer the Elders but ouer the bishops them selues off other churches Which if it be absurd that whereoff it followeth must be likewise This is all that I finde the Nicene Councell gyueth to the Metropolitan aboue the rest how litle it is and how small a part off that the Answ presumeth let the reader iudge That he owght to be no bishop which is made withowt consent off his Metropolitan is a very seely prerogatiue seing yt was the order of the church in those times that all the bishops off the Prouince shoulde be at the making off a Bishop And as the election off the people was voide if the Metropolitane were not at it so was it also if there were not three bishops at the least present Let vs see now whether the practise of the Metropolitanship will fall owt any more fanourable for this pretended iurisdiction Athanasius foloweth on whom the D. woulde fasten this archbishopricke firste because Ischaras submitted him selfe vnto him by lettres As if euery one which hath offended an other doothe by his submission acknowledge him an archbishop whom he hathe offended and as if Ischaras owght not to haue doone as muche vnto any bishop in the Prouince yf he had belonged vnto his parishe as he did vnto that of Athanasius Secondly becawse Arsenius and those off his diocese wrote lettres off submission vnto Athanasius The print off the diocese is so deeply set in the D. heade that what soeuer he meeteth with he turnethe into yt For there is there no mention off diocese but off a citie As for the submission he maketh yt is not to Athanasius but vnto the ecclesiastisticall canons onely he acknowledgeth him Metropolitane and that withowt his sentence he will make no Ecclesiasticall decree perteining vnto the churche which we denie not For we confesse that there were then Metropolitanes and as Arsenius coulde not make anie decree to wching the whole churche in the prouince no more coulde Athanasius withowte Arsenius as hath bene before owt off the former booke declared But that he was subiecte vnto Athanasius there ys not a worde the cleane contrary is to be plainly seene For Arsenius in his fare well writeth thus vve and those vvith vs salute the vvhole companie off sacred men vvhich are in thy iurisdiction by which wordes he manifestly exempteth him selfe frō the iurisdiction off Athanasius Wherupon yt muste folowe that the office off Metropolitaneship in those daies implied no subiection nor autoritie to commaunde ouer other bishops in his prouince And Athanasius in calling the bishops there his fellovv ministres often times declareth in what place he had them not as subiects but as his fellowes And that the A. escape not with that Popishe shifte that Athanasius therby did declare his humilitie yt is to be seene in that booke that the other bishops doo more then half a dosen times call him their felovve mynister barely withowte other title Now if Athanasins not off right but off his greate humilitie called him self their felowe mynister yet the other bishops in so calling him when they were subiecte vnto him and at his commaundement are to be charged not only as voide off Christian humilitie but also as forgetfull euen off all commen ciuilitie and good manners That added off Athanasius visiting off Mariotes and the Prouinces there as they are called perteineth nothing vnto this question for there were no bishops in that place and what he did in that behalfe did not as Archbishop but as Bishop that territory belonging vnto Alexandria And not onely Archbishops but bishops yea Elders visited the parishes off other bishops As for that the parishes in the territory off Mariotes had neuer◠bishop but belonged vnto Athanasius beside that I haue shewed that corruptions had greatly preuailed at that time it is to be obserued that it is there put as a strange thing and vnwonted that one bishop should haue so large grownd For vnles that be the autors ende there was no cause why he shoulde haue vsed that kinde off speach Which may better appeare forsomuche as Socrates speaking off this storie interlaceth the same sentence when as speaking off the places off bishops els where he neuer mentioneth any such thing The canons off Arles Councell off that attributed vnto the Apostles and of Antioch follow The first hath nothing not graunted and serueth for filling onely The second supposed of the Apostles ys the same with that of Antioch That off
bishop all men see that in taking Ierome by the lips withowte considering his meaning the contrary off that the D. gathereth doth folowe that euery minister is a bishop but not euery bishop a minister For that which is conteined vnder an other is more particuler and les then that vvhich dothe conteine as because the kinge is conteined in the magistrate therfore euerie Kinge is a magistrate but not euerye magistrate a Kinge And albeit yt be no meruaile althowghe he which striueth with the trwth shoulde be stricken with suche a guiddines off spirite that he shoulde not be hable to discerne not onely betwene the morning and noone daies but not between noone daies and midnight yet because the smattering in logick which this booke maketh shew of might be so much as not to be so grossely abvsed in casting with my selfe wherfore he shoulde alledge this in the ende yt came to my minde that by thes wordes the elder is conteined in the bishop he woulde haue vnderstanded that the elder is conteined vnder the bishops gouernement If he meane so there is as great ouersight in his grammer as before in logicke ogicke considering that the toung as I suppose will bare no such sense certeine ys that the autor will not suffer yt For he assigneth as reason why thapostle did not speake of the elder for that an elder is conteined in the bishop and therfore speaking of th one he needed not to speake of thother Wheras if he should meane that he would not speake of an elder because he was in the gouernement off the bishop to order as he thowght good yt had bene a witles saying vnworthy of Ierome considering that thapostle speaketh of a deacon which is vnder a bishop Which shall be answer to his like dealing with Chrysostome That Ierome speaketh of an archdeacon in that place I haue before declared But the D. asketh why I went about to deface Ierome if he nether make for our ether bishop or archbishop for that there coulde be no other cause but this I haue shewed that I saued him his due and conuenient honor the cause why I gaue the reader warning to trie him by the rule off the worde off God was because he seemeth in some places to alowe that distinction off bishop from an elder which is diuers from the institution off the Apostell After he setteth downe his places oftén before repeted and asketh whether I thincke those meÌ„te of euerie pastor in his parishe I haue shewed how althowghe vpon occasions before recited there were not in euery congregacion at that time a bishop yet there were in diuers he saith further that the pastor in euery congregation from the beginning had his autoritie ouer his flocke withowte anie suche constitution I graunte he had his antoritie but not so soueraigne as after he obteined by this euill custome considering that he had an equall parte of gouernement with those ioined with him in the administracion off the churche And this althowghe yt be debated betwene vs yet the D. frameth his answer as thowghe there were no suche thinge For albeit for the moste parte there were no moe pastors theÌ„ one in a parishe yet there were moe elders And albeit Ier. speake of those elders which had the ministerie of the word yet â—â—at excludeth not those which were onely for gouernement Where he saith moreouer the care of the whole flock was committed vnto him I see not how he can conclude therof that the bishop was ouer a whole diocese suche as ours yt might rather be concluded that he had charge off one onely congregation considering that althowghe him selfe alone were thowght hable to care for one congregacion yet there is none which would thinck him self alone able to care for a whole dioces And beside that the churches should be in miserable case if none should care for theÌ„ but euery bishop in his dioces let the D. stretch owt the bishops iurisdiction as far as he can yet I haue shewed owt off the Emperours letters to the bishop of Alexandria that the elders off the same church where he abode had aioynt care with him ouer all Which is also confirmed by the testimonie the Ans hath alledged owt off M. Fox where not the bishop onely but his church also is saied to haue the ouersight off the precinctes which perteined vnto him And Ierome him self shewing that the elders ovvght to gouerne in commen vvith the bishop can not be thowght to giue vnto the bishop the whole care of the church as peculiar vnto him alone onles a man will make him contrary to him self For if they haue the gouernement in coÌ„men with him they haue the care in coÌ„men for somuch as there can be no gouernement withowt care So that where Ierome saith the care off the whole churche was coÌ„mitted vnto one yt must be vnderstanded so as yt may be leuell with his other saying especially wheÌ„ he saith that a bishop differed from his elder onely in ordinacioÌ„ Which may appeare by the practise off the churches about the time wherin Ierome wrote For it was ordeined that the bishop should not iudge off any matter but in presence off his clergie if othervvise his sentence should be voide Wherby appeareth that an other canon permitting the iudgement off subdeacons and other inferior orders vnto the bishop alone must be vnderstanded alone withowt other bishops not withowt other assistance Which is also cleare considering that the Councell opposeth the decision off their cawses vnto that off elders and deacons which was to be doon by six and three bishops beside the bishop off whom they were accused This gouernement in commeÌ„ appeareth also in that vvhen one off the clerckes vvould goe ether to the vvidovves or virgines he must haue as vvell the leaue off the elder as off the bishop Likewise that it was ordeined that the deacon should acknovvledge him self as vvell the minister vnto the elder as to the bishop Here it is also to be obserued what that ordinacion was wherin onely the bishop differed from the elder how poore a thing For beside that it can not be vnderstanded off the election which was commen to him with the people and the eldership yt was decreed that vvhen there vvas a bishop to be ordeined tvvo bishops should hould the booke ouer his heade one other bishop should pronounce the blessing aÌ„d the rest of the bishops vvith thelders present should all lay on their handes So that ether there was an other order at Rome theÌ„ is here appointed or els the bishops preeminence was onely to pronounce the blessing and hould the booke the elder hauing as good right to lay on his handes as he Where he saith his place against the Luciferanes with an other owt off his epistle is more cleare he bringeth no reason at all nether are there any wordes to enforce that Onles by church one vnderstand dioces or Prouince such as ours
Wherby also foloweth that where the popular estate or the rule of the beste beareth swaie they can not althowghe they vvould haue an archbishop yea herupon foloweth that ether the Canterbury or Yorke archbishop muste leese his head For yt is concluded off his highe diuinitie that as there is but one prince in the whole Realme so there muste be but one Archbishop His reason the Prince can not els be supreme gouernour off all estates and causes ecclesiasticall to say no more is senseles and hath no knot with that wherunto yt belongeth As if vvhen Roome had both Emperours and consules the Emperour could not be cheife gouernour off the consuls because the Consuls were equall amongest themselues I confessed yt vnconuenient that there should be one Caesar ouer the worlde but that yt may be he alledgeth Caluin that yt is moste absurd to what pourpose what contrarietie is here yt is enowghe for me that there may be and that lawfully a Prince of larger extent of dominion then the archbishop of his archbishopricke althowghe the prince vvould graunte yt him which vtterly ouerthroweth his cause and this being alledged off me afterward is clean passed by For his defense consisteth in this that the Popes widenes off iurisdiction ouer churches ys vnlawfull because he hath yt not of the gifte off Princes and in this that the externall gouernement of the church must be according to the forme and kinde off gouernement in the commen wealth Which is also manyfestly confuted there whence he hath borowed this temony For there he addeth that althowgh yt were graunted that there might be one Caesar ouer all the worlde yet yt followeth not that there may be one bishop ouer all the churches which notwithstanding muste needes folowe if the externall gouernement off the church muste be according to that forme and kinde off gouernement vsed in the commen wealth a For the distinction which supposeth certein ministers of the word and Sacramētes onely and certein to haue to gether with the administration off them the gouernemente also I refer the reader to that before written his vaine cauil that I desire to be vncontrolled off any but off God is answered The D. accuseth me off falsehood for that I charge bim with citing Augustine and Crysostome at large Towching Augustine that he vvas so alledged appeareth firste pag. 583. and both he and Chrysostom pag. 296. Where he saith he vsed that large quotacion onely once in Muscul Cyril and M. Fox he coulde hardly doo yt oftner in the two laste considering that as I remember he alledgeth them once onely but towching Muscul beside the place I charge him with he lefte his aduersary twise to his wide worckes Where he remembreth not that he sendeth to any other writers but with places quoted as particularly as he could his memory vvhich is so miraculouse at other times is here but miserable To helpe yt beside this place off Cal. he sendeth to his Institutes vvithowt any further restreinte as appeareth pag. 132. againe pag. 74. in his former booke for he hath quoted yt in this later Likewise that Damasus calleth Stephen Archdeacon withowt any direction pag. 344. Also alledgeth Gratian Polidore Volateran vvithowte any restreinte 589. pa. I omit that he sendeth towardes th end off his booke to the large feilde off godly interpreters that diuers times he gyueth the booke onely where he might gyue the chap. the chap. onely where he mighte giue the section all which are contrary to that he setteth downe Wherby may appeare what a hard mouth he hath and howe I speake sparingly off this kinde off allegation off his Charged heere by his fonde allegacion off Cal. Institut he answereth I knew there were sundry editions I did so but whether yt be absurd that he should leaue both the beste and moste vsual to take that which is worse and in the handes of fewe onles he mente to play vnder the boorde that men should not vnderstand I leaue to the readers iudgement His reason he had noted yt laboured it and was acqainted with yt is very simple For is yt meete that because he had made his booke a litle heuier with yncke he should be wedded so to yt as to neglecte the commen commoditie how he is acquainted with yt I knowe not but I trust yt hath and shall appeare that there is no more frendship betwene him and his booke in thes matters then betwene light and darknes But yt is foly to reason with him for he addeth Doctorlike that he both hath and will so vse yt still Howbeit how cometh yt to pas that euen in his former booke he hath alledged the later edition belike ether that was some tributary allegacion or els the latter was better to him there then his noted one Howe vniustly he chargeth me with vncerteine direction in ether all or the moste off thes he setteth downe I leaue to be iudged off that I haue said in that behalfe The reste off this diuis with the nexte is nothing but bare and bould affirmacions reproches and repetitions The nexte to it hath nothing but trifling and vnlerned questions before answered That set downe off the inconuenience off many speaking together according to the prouerbe many may sing but not speake at once is not as he saith needles but made way to the necessitie of hauing one which otherwise equal should haue some preheminence in that action The next hath nothing but railing wordes with repetition off repetitions and that beside the matter considering that the cautions I put off the moderator in the assembly off ministers I put not as alwais obserued off the D. Bishops and Archbishops but as those which owghte to be In asking scripture for proofe he dalieth seeking for that he would not find as the scholer the rod he must be beaten with The cocke a glorious and proud birde which will not suffer his victorie to be hidden but proclameth yt forthwith by crowing yet if he be ouercome hideth him selfe Wherin he sheweth a great deale more modestie then the D. which althowgh he haue neuer a spur of argument ether to defend him self or to offend his aduersary yet croweth as high as if the maistrie were in his hande But let yt goe let vs see his fighte To that I alledgrd of Peter chosen by the other Apostels to moderate the two firste actions notwithstanding yt be not set downe he answereth yt is wicked to grounde thalteration of the archbishop and our bishops gouernemente continued long and practised in the beste times of the church withowt yea contrary to the ground off scripture The long continuance onles they haue salte off the worde off God to preserue them argueth they be rotten and suche as caste an euill sauour That they were not in the beste times off the church hath before appeared whether yt haue ground owte off the worde that Peter was chosen by the Apostels
gyuen vnto the people againste their vvill nether by oppression of mighty men vvhiche is detestable let the cytisens or clergie be dravven to gyue their consente And thus muche for answer to yowr Councels To fetche a commaundemente out off the booke off numbers is to fetche yt out off the higheste courte off heauen And I was not constreined vnto it for off more then halfe a score reasons brewghte whether one off them be once moued by yow I leaue it to be iudged This commaundement pinched yow so that albeit yow pretende lawghter yet I dowbte not but yt is Sardons lawghter that is to saie from the teethe owtwarde where yow saie there is no worde which signifieth an election yt is yowr olde boldnes off denying that which is as cleare as the none daies Where also yow saie that it speakinge off layinge on off handes can make nothinge for the election off the church I beseche yow syr how doo yow proue that Timothe hathe the choise of ministers ys it not by thes wordes that he is bidden not to laie on his handes and haue yow not saide that by the layinge on off handes the whole solemnitie off creatinge ministers is vnderstanded this is faste and lose and not onely as Teconius said that that vvee vvill is holie but when wee vvill and as longe as vvee vvill Belike the laying on off handes signifieth nothinge or if it doo and not the consente off the people Why doothe not the Answ tell vs what And where he goeth abowte to finde some differēce in this and that vvhich I saie off the layinge on of handes by the Eldershippe and heroff besides the peintinge off his mergente speaketh ones twise and the thirde tyme accordinge to his olde manner of repeticiōs He purposely as seemeth passeth by my answer to that obiection that not the people but certeine that is to saie the elders in the name off the people did laie on their handes as it is to bee seene in other places vvhere the gouernours in the name off all the people laie on their handes vpon the sacrifice for synne Where yow will mee to speake in good earneste If I had onely to doo vvith such a trifler I woulde either answer nothinge or els as such a one is worthie but because I haue to doo with the church off God for iudgement off the iudiciall and Ceremoniall law and for proofe off yowr vntrew dealing I refer my selffe to that I haue saide before Yff this I haue alledged off layinge on off handes vpon the ordeined bee a Ceremoniall lawe which tooke ende by the comming off our Sauiour Christe then the Apostels vvere iniurious vnto his deathe that translated that Ceremonie from the Iewes vnder the lawe into the churche vnder the Gospell Therfore in this poincte yow haue to doo with the Apostles and not with me For as vnder the lawe the gouernoures and the people consentinge into one action testified the same by layinge on off handes off the gouernours onely so vnder the Gospell the elders and people consentinge in the election off one doo testifie it by layinge on off handes off the Elders onely Where yow vvoulde proue yt abrogated because yt yt is ioined with other thinges which are abrogated I haue shewed howe that is an engyne to wreste owte off the handes off the church all the morall lawes that euer vvere vvritten Where yow saie there coulde be no election off the people in the leuytes for that God had chosen them Yow mighte haue vnderstanded that althowghe the tribe of Leuy onely were vsed to the ministerie yet all that tribe was not applied that vvaies but as many as vvere thowghte enoughe to supplie that office and those also not at all aduenture but by choise accordinge to their habilitie I feare not Maister W. the iudgemente off the greateste enemies I haue and frendes yow haue in this cause but that their owne consciences shall vvitnes vvithe mee off my faithfull alledginge off the scriptures and off yowr either notable ignorance or very euill conscience And in thes iestes off yowres and accusations off my byndinge men vnto the Ceremoniall lawe and bringinge them to Iudaisme and fetchinge off a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall lawe Were yow not a fraide by my sides to thruste thorowghe Cyprian Who fetcheth his profe for the election off the ministerie by the voice off the people owte off the booke off nombers vvhere mention is made also off the preistes garmentes vvhich vvas ceremoniall Or vvere yow not afraide thus to handle Maister Caluin His profe is fetched owt off Leuiticus vvhose speciall argumente is to handell ceremonies and mighte not I fetche a commaundement out off nombers which hath an other scope He onely vppō that it vvas cōmaunded that Moses shoulde bringe the Leuites before the congregation concluded that the peoples consente ovvghte to be had in the ministers choyse and was yt not lawfull for me hauinge the same grounde and further also the comaundement that the people shoulde laie on their handes to conclude as muche He toke his place from thence where nether in the chapiters before nor in that owte of the vvhich he fetcheth this there is any thinge but ceremonial And was it not lawful for me to take this sentence becawse other thinges in this chap. vvere ceremoniall but that I muste needes be thus iested on and my discretion so greatly required in handlinge the scripture Therfore I saie that I citing this place am no more Iewish then the Apostels then Cyprian then Caluin Where I alledged for the establishing off that vvhich he calleth a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall law that the grovvnd of childrens baptisme standeth vpon the ceremony off Circumcision He answering that circumcision was a figure off baptisme but that the Leuiticall priesthood was no figure off the Ministery off the Gospell is deceiued For certein thinges in the Ministrie off the lawe were figures off thinges in the Ministrie off the Gospell as their anointinge signified that none maie bee admitted vnto the ministerie off the Gospell but those which haue giftes meete for that purpose as our Sauiour Christe him selffe owte off Esai expoundeth yt Euen their sacrifices vvhich off all other thinges are furthest from the ministrie of the gospell shadowed out the mortyfyinge off synne by the sworde off the worde off God that the mynisters mighte offer the people vnto God an acceptable sacrifice throwgh Iesus Christe as appeareth by Saincte Paule And the lawes off the leuiticall priesthoode are not onely figures off our ministerie but often times also rules to directe yt by therfore as off that Aaron toke not vppon hym the preisthood before he vvas called off God the vvriter vnto the Hebrewes concluded the callinge off our Sauiour Christe to his preisthood so farre different from the preisthood off Aaron so wee conclude that no man maie put his foote into the ministrie oneles he bee called Thes argumentes
if Maister W. answer be good are auoided vvith a floute that they be a mandatum owte off the bookes off Leuiticus and Nombers that they carie vs to Iudaisme c. Yt is vvell the D. hath not to doo vvith the Anabaptistes For he is like enowgh to betraie that cawse vvhich hauinge so sure groundes in the scripture ▪ is here by him laied open to their mockerie For he saith that the 28. off S. Matthew is a generall grounde to proue the baptisme off Children When our Sauiour Christe speaketh there onely off those vvhich vvere off discretion as appeareth by that he biddeth them baptise those whom they haue made scolers off Christe by their doctrine And therfore for so much as the Apostels coulde not teache children nor coulde not make them disciples by teachinge before their baptisme yt is manifeste that he speaketh not there off childrens baptisme And this might he haue learned for his vse in the same booke off Zuinglius oute of which he hath taken so manie thinges to no pourpose And it is not onely Maister Zuinglius answer but other learned mennes vvhich haue had to doo vvith that secte As for the promise alledged that god is our God and the God of our seede albeit that bee the grounde wherupon the holy sacramentè off Baptisme is ministred vnto infantes yet yt is not sufficiente vvithout addinge the commaundement off God touchinge the circumcision off yonge children For iff the lorde hauinge gyuen that promise vnto Abraham had commaunded no circumcision at all or had onely commaunded yt to be gyuen to those off discretion yt had not bene lawfull for Abraham to haue circumcised his infantes yet they shoulde haue remained vnder the promes So that vvhether Yow vvill or no wee muste come to reason from circumcision vnto baptisme Neither is that yow alledge of Circumcision to haue beene a figure off baptisme sufficient to deliuer yow oute off the nettes vvherwith yow snare yowr selfe For albeit yt bee a figure off baptisme yet yt is aceremonie and a principall parte off the ceremoniall lawe and yowr answer is generall againste all reasoninge from the ceremoniall lawe vnto that which is established vnder the gospell Therfore I vpholde still that yovvr ansvveres here and in other places tende to spoile vs off diuers pillers and principall buttresses off our religion Where he saithe he condemnethe not other churches which haue appoincted other orders of electing pastors I reporte me to thè reader whether the wordes be generall and vvhether the reasons he alledgeth for that purpose be likwise Nether can the D. shewe any reason why in Geneua vvhy in vvhole Dominions in Germanie Why in Scotlande in Fraunce also in the tyme off their peace this order off election by the consente off the people shoulde bee good and pernitious in England Which notwithstandinge owghte to haue bene shewed if there be anie I expounded the worde ovvght as reason vvheroff the lawe is founded and experience vvhich is often times the interpreter off the lawe tawgte me to shewe that vvhere the consente off all can not bee had ▪ there the thinge shoulde passe by the moste parte of those which haue intereste And where yow affirme that lawiers doo saie that that sentence is to bee vnderstanded of compartners or iointe tenantes in some howse or possession and not off the interest off bodies politike I am well contente they be interpreters of the lawe which they professe and therfore iff that be shewed me I will reste in that interpretation But the reason assigned that it seldome commeth to pas that they will all consente semethe not so stronge consideringe that there is not so great violence doone vnto the wordes off the lawe which may not be founde in other places if by the worde all the moste parte be vnderstanded Especially when allthowghe all doo not agree yet all haue had free voice in that matter And where yow saie that euen that lawe admitteth diuers exceptions that is not materiall For I laie not so muche weighte of this sentence as thowghe the cause should rise and fall vvith it I mente that as much credite mighte growe vnto the cause by this as by a prouerbe which is trewe For the moste part off which kinde off reasons not onely orators but the scripture yt selfe diuers times vseth And therfore if I gaine by this lawe that the ordinarie choise off ministers owght to be by the people I hath at I loked for But yt is to be obserued that where the A founde faulte vvith me for mitigatinge the necessitie off the worde ought by this exception if it maie be he notwithstandinge alledgeth fowre exceptions wherby the necessitie which he saithe that worde importeth is quite ouerthrowne And if those condicions be trewe then be like I did well vnderstande the worde ought the vnderstandinge wheroff he can not aforde me Yt is well you be no lawier For yowe that are so liberall off a dinners talke as to tell vs off Many together and Many senerally with so many exceptions to so smale pourpose if yow had beene studied that waies woulde haue troubled vs all for then yt is like vvee shoulde haue had alwaies Cesar for Christe and Paule the lawier for Saint Paule the Apostell But marke vvhat a trymme waie he hathe founde to proue that the whole parishe chuseth when the bishopp onely chusethe that they are willinge to haue hym whom they are compelled whether they vvill or no to receiue Yea and not onely that but that euery minister is chosen by the whole realme that is to saie by those which neuer sawe him nor heard off him But hath he forgotten firste that it is our controuersie whether the parliament haue doon well in establishing off suche an order off makinge ministers and whether this egge off the bishoppes election laied in propery could by the sitting vppon off the Parliament although neuer so godly leese the poysoned nature it had before If that bee not agreed this deuise that the people chuse when the bishop be-because yt was so ordeined by all estates serueth not This libertie as hathe bene shewed is a peece off the liberties which Christ hath purchased vnto his churches by the sheddinge off his precious bloud wherin they owght to haue stood and which is no more lawfull for them to alienate or set ouer to others then to giue awaie the inheritance of the kingdome of heauen wherunto this is annexed Moreouer we speake off an electiō wherin consente is to be gyuen as ofte as the church is destitute off a minister and he off consente ones gyuen for euer We off an election which is passed by all the howsholders off euery church he off that vvhich vvas passed by a fewe burgeses in the vvhole realme We off a free election and he off an election wherin yt is by yowr leaue againste yowr will. Now the Papistes may clap their handes for againste all the argumentes that Maister
after the councell had saied that the gospels with other scriptures should be red on Sabboth daies yt addeth vve must not read bookes vvhich are ovvt off the canon but the canonicall bookes off the old and novv testament alone And where he would cōfirme his interpretatiō by the 47. canon off the third councell off Carthage he is againe indebted vnto Harding which against Maister Iewell alledging the councell off Carthage to proue that it commaunded nothing should be red in Christes congregation but the Canonicall scriptures answereth with the same wordes the D. doth charging him with falsehood To whom as now also to the D. the bishop answereth that the meaning off the councell vvas that nothing els shoulde be red which he proueth by the councell off Hippo an abridgement off that off Carthage whene it is thus written The scriptures canonicall vvhich are to be red in the church and beside vvhich nothing may be red and so goeth forward alledging other testimonies affirming partly that nothing owght partly that nothing was wont to be red in the church beside holy scripture His answer to the councell off Colen is too childish The councels wordes in the sixt Canon are these vvhere in times past yt vvas ordeined off the most holy fathers that the holy scriptures alone shoulde be red in the church vve knovve not by vvhat carelesnes other not to be compared vvith them are come into their place Wherby appeareth that it condemneth not onely reading off sainctes liues wheroff it speaketh after but generally the breach of the councels decree that nothing should be red in the church but holy scripture Where he museth how we can say that reading off homilies were meanes to instle the bible into corners seing we will haue the reading of scriptures giue place to preaching I haue shewed how grosse and intollerable ignorance it is where I proued the excellency of preaching before simple reading off scriptures but especially before homilies The obiection which I made off praier is answered the answer is not ones moued as for that the necessity off chaunging the wordes off scripture in praier is as strong against sermons preaching as homilies reading I haue shewed how false it is when as that chaunge is autorised by precise commaundement off God which can not be shewed for reading homilies His reason that the Apocrypha may be red in the church becawse the councell off Carthage decreing onely the reading off canonicall scripture tooke them in that nomber adding that they be aswell red in the church as counted portions off the ould and new testament is absurd For seing it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to take them as portions off the ould and new testament yt followeth by his owne reason that it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to be openly red Where he saith there is nothing in them contrary to the rest off the scripture accounting them as a part althowgh the reason be nothing worth considering that so a booke gathered owt off Cato Theognes and Cebes tables c. may be red in the churche yet I answer that there be many places partly plainly contrary to the holy scripture partly friuolous and vnworthy to be red For Esoras Apocrypha I will refer the reader partly vnto Caluins censure of them the treatise I doo not precisely remember sauing that it is like to be in one of those against the Anabaptists or Libertines whose gospell those bookes be and partly to the manifest contradiction with the holy scripture which referring the genealogy off Esra vnto Eleazar to whom the priesthood belonged is by the Apocrypha referred vnto Ely and consequently vnto Ithamar to whom yt did not apperteine Off some off the other I will gyue a few examples Where the holy gost condemneth the fact off Simeon and Levy towardes the Sichemites Iudith in propounding it for example and to strenghthen her faith in the cutting off off Holofernus head alloweth yt If it be saied but the booke doth not allow it The scripture neuer propoundeth a faultie praier withowt condemning off it especially so long The sonne off Syrach affirming that the true Samuell prophecyed after his death leaueth the disquieting off the iust in the courteousie off coniurers which is vngodly doctrine and contrary to that peace the scripture saith they be in where Daniell sheweth that the fire bourned after the three young men were throwen into it to the commendation of the power of God which kept them from suffring in any part off it the counterfait Daniell affirming that the Angell smote the flame off the fire owt of the fournace and cawsed as it were a moist hissing winde in the middest c. partly falsifieth partly discrediteth Daniel as one that lefte owt such weightie thinges as he there supposeth I passe by how vnworthy yt is that he that hath ouereaten him selff is bidden to rise and goe vomit and after get him self to rest which are preceptes fitter for the kitchin then for the church Likewise the Iewish fable of the fire takē to be hidden and other such toies and of commending him that slue him self off demaunding pardon off the reader a language vnmeet for the holy gost Thes few off a nomber which come to minde shall suffise for a tast And be cause the D. tasteth nothing but autoritie off men he hath Ierome of this minde which writing to a woman biddeth her take heed off all the Apocrypha affirming that they are not theirs vvhose names they beare that there are many faulty thinges mingled and that it requireth vvisdome to seeke for gold in durt The hymne also off the three children he runneth throwgh where Erasmus iestingly saith it is merueill that Ierome putteth this song vpō the spit meaning condemneth it seing it is both red and soung in churches euery vvhere as if it vvere some speciall holy thing Wherby it is not vnlike but that he speaketh in another place off the reading off Apocrypha to edyfying off the people not to confirmation off the doctrine is spoken rather story wise in telling what was doon in that time thē what he allowed for if it be daungerous for one to read them priuately howe must it needes be more to read them openly onles it be with exposition which is yet more absurd Except paraduenture to reconcile Ierome one had rather interprete those wordes the church reades off the priuate reading of euery one off the church wheroff there are examples Now I must put the D. also in minde that nether in his first nor later booke he hath answered the Adm. reason towching priuate reading onely of the Apocrypha because their name vvhich signifieth secret or hid doth speake as much If he will say they are so called because the writers of thē are vnknowen he can not so escape cōsidering that this name doth put a difference betwene them and canonicall which it could not if that
signification should be followed for part of the writers of canonicall bookes as of Iosue Iudges Sam. Chron. Kinges c. are vnknowen To that wherin the booke is charged for lifting vp of diuers cha of the Apocrypha to be red as extra ordinary lessons vppon feast daies vvherin there are greatest assemblies some chap. off canonicall scripture being not red at all he answereth not a word but leaueth it to speake for it self Seing then the scripture precisely forbiddeth to ordeine a pastor not fit to teach and bare reading off homilies is conuenient off holy scriptures insufficient to saue the people by which are the cruches wherewith the D. would vphould this lame ministery it followeth together with the shamefull absurdities off reading to be preaching to be as good yea better then preaching that vnpreaching pastors as the pestilence off the church owght to be throwen owt Now I retourne backe to the 7. Tract off Ministers apparell wherunto albeit I was determined as may appeare to reply yet considering after that this cawse hath bene so fully debated both by bookes in print and other treatises written in the handes of as many as desire after them considering also that the D. second answer beside false accusations as that men haue learned off me and my parteners to esteme the surplis c. corrupt in them selues c. open facing downe off thinges in knowledge off all men as that none are hindred one iot from comming to the gospell by prescript apparell bare affirmacions withowt proofe as that no minister making conscience off wearing thapparell will rather weare it moued by example off other then by the law which commaundeth it almost continuall reasoning not to the matter which he cowardly dissembleth as that Prophetes which were extraordinary ministers had an extraordinary apparell which is not denied which traine taken at the beginning is followed to the end triumphes in his owne shame â—â— appeareth in the place off Salomons Ecclesiastes I say beside thes considering that he hath almost nothing at all not before answered and that he hath not fetched from any treasury off good learning but as taken vp by the highe way sideâ— and considering that we haue this question with very few him the Papistes or those which haue already cast an eye vnto the papistes onely excepted with whom to trauaill in this point before their other gale be purged were to heale the skinne and leaue the bones still broken all thes things considered with that that it may better appeare we take not these thinges for the greatest matter we coÌ„plaine of I thowght good to tread this treatise vnder my foot and to saue some good howres which might be lost in vnripping this beggery That I saie off hauing this question with very few him c. excepted I meane in that where he saith the surplis square cap and tippet be most conuenient decent and comely others in whom there is any loue off the truth confesse it a weed vnmeet for a minister of the gospell which not able to root owt they are for certeine causes content to beare with And althowgh destitute off answer he plie his matter with accusatioÌ„s of disobedieÌ„ce and conteÌ„pt of magistrate yet I doubt not but with all indifferent our open and simple profession off the necessitie off higher powers and off the honour and humble submission to Her Maiestie and all magistrates vnderneth her ether in doing thinges commaunded or patiently suffring for that which we can not with good conscieÌ„ce doo shall be sufficient defense especially seing that euen in this matter off apparell it is confessed that obedience owght to be giuen where the commaundement is with iniury to the ministery As for the D. ether error or flattery that in thinges indifferent commaunded by the Magistrate we owght not to haue such regard to the offense off the weake but that if all should be offended that is to say perish and make shipwracke off conscience for that is the offense which S. Paul and we after him speake off yet we owght to doo that which is commaunded the Magistrate being therby lifted aboue the Lord we vtterly condemne Considering it being a flat commaundement off the holy gost that we absteine from thinges in their owne nature indifferent if the weake brother should be offended no autoritie ether off church or commen wealth can make yt voide And where the magistrates commaunding and owr obedience vnto him owght to be squared owt first by the loue off God then off men our brethren especially this new carpenter as one that frameth his squire according to his tymber and not his timber according to the squire will make our obedience to the cyuill Magistrate the rule off the loue off God and our brethren So that in steed that he should teach that we may obey no further vnto the magistrate then the same wil agree with the glory off God and saluation off our brethren he teacheth that in thinges off their owne nature indifferent we must haue no further regard nether to saluacion off our bethren nor to the glory off God which in neglect of their saluacion is troden vnder food then will agree with doing that the magistrate commaundeth But I am gone further then I thowght seing there caÌ„ hardly be any so symple which perceiueth not easely both the fondnes and absurdity off his answers in this question The replie to the D. 8. Tract off Archbishopes and Bishopes Vnto the firste and seconde diuision being beside the question I answer nothing Before I come to the thirde forsomuche as the place off the Euangelistes which is before is generall and striketh at all the loftie and swelling titles off the ministrie I will set it here downe in the foreward off the reasons browghte againste the names off Archbishopes c. as that which speaking againste all the smoky names muste nedes comprehende thes In the D. answer therfore wherby he goeth aboute to proue that thes wordes gratious or bountifull Lordes make nothing againste the great names and magnifical titles off the ministers this is the firste that Saint Marke and Muthewe haue no wordes bearing any suche sense Wherunto I answer that as yt is a generall rule almoste throwghowte the scripture that repetitions are not withowt some vsury and increase so in the writinges of the EuaÌ„gelistes yt is to be obserued almost euery where And therfore yt owghte not to haue bene strange if other Euangelistes speaking off the autoritie onely S. Luke added also touching the titles Secondly he answereth this clawse yt shall not be so vvith yovv is not referred vnto those wordes are called bountifull and benefyciall but vnto ambition and tyraÌ„nical dominioÌ„ onely wherunto I answer firste that forsomuch as the things there affirmed of the Ministers and the worde off gracious Lordes is as well affirmed off kinges as the worde off bearinge dominion therfore those wordes yt shall not be so