eternall deeth and dampnacyon And so hath Christ velyvered vs from the pitte wherin is no water that is to saye from hell everlastinge dampnacyon not that we were in hell all readye although we were bounde vnder sinne and readye to be cast therin but because we shuld not entre in to hell This is the pure vnderstondinge of the teâ—…te Here might I dispute with him both of hell and of limbus patruÌ„ but because I will be as shorte as possible is I will deferre that vntill a nother occasion that I mayâ—… reason with him sumwhat at large ANother place is there also in the olde testa ment that putteth purgatorie quyte out of question For sayeth he what is playner then the places which in the boke of the Machabees made mencyon of the devoute remembraunce prayoure almoyse sacrifice to be done for soules when the good and holye man Iudas Machabeus gathered monye amonge the people to buye sacrifyce with all to be offered vp for the soules of them that were deed in the batayle What shifte finde they here Surelye a verye shamlesse shifte and are 〈◊〉 to take them to that taklinge which is their shoteaÌ„ker alwaye when they finde the storme so greate that they se their shippe goeth al to wracke For first they â—…se to sette some false glosse vnto the texte and if that helpe not then falle they to a shamelesse boldnesse and let not to denye the scripture and all The place which he recyteth is writeÌ„ 2. Ma chabeo 12. And to saye the truth the boke is not of 〈◊〉 auctorite to make an article of oure faith neyther is it admitted in the canon of y â— hebrues Here he obiecteth that the church hath â—…lowed it and the holye doctoures as S. Hiero me S. Austine and soch other I answere S. Hieromes minde is opened vnto vs by the pistle which he wrote before the proverbes of So lomon his wordes are these Sicut Iudith et Tobie et Machabeorum libros ligit quiâ—… eoâ—… ecclesia sed inter canonicas scripturas non reci pit sic et hec duo volumina legat ad edificationem plebis non ad authoritatâ—…m ecclesiasticoruÌ„ dogmatum confirmandum That is like as the church doth read y â— bokes of Iudith Thobias and the Machabees but receaveth them not emonge the canonicall scriptures even so let it read these two bokes he meaneth y â— boke of sapience and ecclesiasticus vnto the edefyinge of the people and not to confirme the doctrine of the church therbye And it is nothinge like that S. Austayne shulde dissente from S. Hierom for they were both in one tyme yee and. S. Hierom out lyved S. Austayne And therfore the church coulde not admitte any such bokes eyther before S. Austaynes tyme or in his tyme but that S. Hierom shulde haue knowne of it And so maye you gather that if S. Austayne â—…lowe these bokes or els saie y t the church hath alowed theÌ„ you maye not vnderstoÌ„de y t they ha ue alowed and receaved them as canonicall scri ptures for then you make S. Hierom a 〈◊〉 But thus you must vnderstoâ—…de it that they ha ue receaved them to be red for the edefyinge oâ—… the people and not to confirme the doctrine of the church or articles of the faith therby accordinge to S. Hieroms exposition Now mayâ—… you se y t oure shoteanker as he calleth it is so stronge that al his stormes and waves can not once move it for we denye not but that the boke is receaved of y e church to be red and weshewe by S. Hierome for whate entenâ—… it is receaved and red not to proue any article of oure faith therbye but onlye to ordre oure maner of lyvinge therafter in soch poyntes as are not re pugnaunte vnto the canonicall scripture But yet for this once to do the man pleasu re we will let slippe oure shoteanker and take the sees with him And for all their furious win des aÌ„d frothye waves we will never stricke say le so stronge is oure shippe aud so wel belanced Be it in case that this boke of the Macabees were of as god auctorite as Esai yet can he not prove this fyrye and paynefull purgatorye therâ—…ye For it speaketh not one worde neyther of fyre nor payne but it speaketh of a sacrifyce offered for the deed that they might be loosed from their sinnes because there is a resurreccioÌ„ of the deed which maye well be with out any payne or fyre So that this conclusion is verye baâ—… and naked It is good to offer sacrifyce for the deed that they maye be loosed from their sinnes ergo there is a sensible fyre which doth punish the holye aÌ„d chosen people of god I am sure there is no childe but he maye perceave y t this argument is nought Besides that it is to be doubted whether Iudas did well or not in offerings this sacrifyce And therfore ougâ—…t we not of a folish presumpcyon to folowe his facte vntill we knowe how it was accepted Parad venture thou wilt saye that the dede is commended in the sayed te xte where it sayeth But because he considered that they which with godlines had entred theire slepe that is their deeth had good favoure layed vpp in store for them therfore is the remeÌ„ braunce to praye for the deed hoiye and hoâ—…esome that they maye be loosed from their sinnes I answere that the persones which were slayne in the battayle for whom this prayer and sacrifyce was made were founde to haue vnder their clokes oblacyons of idolles which were at Iamniam and for that cause were they slayne as it is playne in the texte yee and all the host praysed the right iudgement of god Now these men that were so slayne were dampned by the lawe Deutero 7. which sayeth The images of their goddes thou shalt burne with fyre and se that thou covette not the silver or golde that is on them nor take it vnto the lest thou be snared therwith for it is an abominacion vnto the lorde thy god Bringe not therfore the abominacioÌ„ vnto thine house lest thou be a dampned thinge as it is But vtterlye defye it and abhorre it for it is a thinge that must be destroyed Of this maye we evideÌ„tlye perceave that albe alâ—…e 〈◊〉 did this thinge of a good minde yet was he de ceaved for his sacrifyce coulde nothinge helpe them sith they were dampned by the lawe and entred not their slepe with godlinesse as he supposed Huthermore it is evident that the Iewes 〈◊〉 sacrifices for the sinnes of them that lyved Leuitici 4 5 6. 〈◊〉 But how knew they that tho se sacrifyces shuld extendâ—… them selues vnto the sinnes of the deed And they were commaunded vnder the payne of cursinge that they shuld adde nothinge vnto the worde of god Deuter. 12. Uerelye it is like that the preastes even at that tyme sought their awne profytte
beleue y t we be deceaved I thinke there is no man so fo lish as to graunte him this But if Master Mo re will haue his reason holde he must argue on this manâ—…r The 〈◊〉 and infidels before named beleue that there is a purgatorye their beleue is true therfore we must beleue y t there is a purgatorye Now soloweth this argu ment sum what more formallye Here might I put him to the profe of his minor which is that their belefe in beleuinge purgatorye is true which thinge he shall never be able to proue But I haue such confidence of the truth on my side 〈◊〉 I will take vppon me to proue the negatyue Even that their belefe is not true as 〈◊〉 purgatorye for these miscreauntes which 〈◊〉 purgatorye beleue not y t there is a purgatorye for vs that be Christen for they beleue that we are fallen from al truth â—…tterlye 〈◊〉 But they thinke that there is a purgatorye for theÌ„ selues wherin they shalbe purged aÌ„d punished vntill they haue made full satisfaccioÌ„ for their sinnes committed but that is false for neither Turkes Saracenes paynims nor Iew is which beleue not in Christ haue or euer shall entre in to anye purgatorye but they are all daÌ„p ned wretches because they belâ—…ue not in â—…esu Christ. Ioan. 3 Now sith they be deceaved for they haue no purgatorye but are al daÌ„pned as many as beleue not Alas what blindnes is that to argue that we must solowe them which are both blinde and out of the right waye After this disputeth he by naturall reason y â— there must be a purgatorye his disputacioÌ„ coÌ„tinueth a leffe aÌ„d an halfe out of the which Ra 〈◊〉 toke all his boke And so are all his appareÌ„t reasons disclosed before agenst Rastell TheÌ„ beginneth he with the scripture on this maner IT semeth verye probable likelye that y â— good kinge Ezechias for no nother cause wepte at the warninge of his deeth geven him by the prophete but onlye for the feare of purgatorye cÌ„ The storye is writen 4. Reg. 2. And. Esai 38 Ezechias was sike vnto y â— deeth And Esai the prophete sonne of Amos came vnto him sayeÌ„ge this sayeth y â— lord dispose thy house for thou shalt dye and not ly ve he tourned his face vnto the walle aÌ„d prayed the lorde sayenge I besech the lorde remembre I praye the how I haue walked before the in the truth and in a perfeyte harte and haue done that thinge which is pleasaunte and acceptable before the. Then Ezechias wepte with greate cryenge these are the wordes of the texte we can not peâ—… ceaue by the texte that he was a greate sinner but rather the contrarye for he sayeth that he hath walked before the lorde in truth and in a perfeyte harte and hath done y t thinge which is pleasaunte and acceptable before the lorde And therfore it is nothinge like that he shuld feare purgatorye neyther yet hell Thou wilt paradventure aske me if he wepte not for feare of purgatorye why did he then wepe I will also aske you a question and then will I shewe you my minde Christ did not onlye wepe but feared so sore y t he swette like droppes of bloude 〈◊〉 doune vppon the erth which was more then to wepe Now if I shuld aske you why Christ feared aud swette so sore what wol de you answere me that it was for feare of the paynes of purgatorye forsouth he that wolde so answere shulde be laughed to skorne of all y â— worlde as he were well worthye wherfore was it theÌ„ verelye even for feare of deeth as it play nlye appeareth after for he prayed vnto his father sayenge my father if it be possible let this deeth â—…asie fro me Mat. 26. so fearful a thinge is deeth even vnto the most purest flesh And even the same cause will I assigne in Ezechias that he wepte for feare of deeth and not for pur gatorye Now proceadeth he further and promiseth to proue it by playne evident textes as it is verye nedefull for the texte that he alleged before is sum what to farre wrested and yet wil it not serve him Haue ye not saieth he the wordes of scripture writen in the boke of the kinges dominus deducit ad inferos er reducit Oure lorde bringeth folke doune in toâ—…hell and bringeth them thence agayne But they that be in that where the daÌ„pned soules be they be neuer delyuered thence agayne wherfore yt apparesh well that they whom god deliuereth and bringeth thence agayne be in that parte of hell that ys called purgatorye â—…hys texte is writen in the first boke of y â— kynges and in the ii chaptre and they are the wordes of Anna which sayeth The lorde doth kylle and quicken agayne he ledeth doune in to hell and bringeth agayne Here he thinketh to haue good holde But surelye his holde will fay le him for in this one texte he sheweth him selfe twyse ignorauÌ„te First because he knoweth not that the hebrue worde sheol doth not signyfye hell but a graue or pitte that is digged As it is written geneses 42. Si quid aduersitatis acci derit ei in terra ad quaÌ„ pergitis deducetis canos meos cuÌ„ dolore ad iferos y t is If any evil chauÌ„ ce vnto my sonne beniamin in y â— londe whether you go you shall brynge doune min hoore heaâ—…es wyth sorow vnto my graue not vnto hell nor yet vnto purgatorie for he thought neither to go to hell nor purgatorye for hys sonne but thought y t he shuld dye for sorow yf hys sonne had any myschaunce Besides y t he is clene ignorauÌ„te of y â— comeÌ„ maner of all prophetes whych for y â— most parte in all psalmes himnes aÌ„d other songes of prayse as this is make y â— first ende of the verse to ex pouÌ„de y â— last aÌ„d the last to expouÌ„de the first He that obserueth this rule shall understonde verie moch in y â— scripture although he be ignorauÌ„te in the hebrue So doth this place full well expoun de it selfe with out any imaginacion of pugato 〈◊〉 Conferre the first parte of y â— verse vnto the last and you shall easelye perceaue it The first parte of the halfe verse is thys The lorde doth uylle and that expoundeth the tother halfe of this verse where she sayeth he leadeth doune to hell so that in thys place to kille and to leade doune to hell ys all one thinge And likewise in the seconde parte of the halfe verse to quycâ—…en agayne aÌ„d bringe agayneis all one thynge Now yt any man be so supersticious y t he dare not vnderstonde this thinge as fyguratelie spo 〈◊〉 then maye he verefye yt vppon them y t god raysed from naturall deeth as he dyd lazatum Ioan. xi And albe yt no man can denye but y t this sence
¶ A disputacioÌ„ of purgatorye made by Johan Frith which is deuided in to thre bokes ¶ The first boke is an answere vnto Rastell which goeth aboute to proue purgatorye by naturall philosophye ¶ The seconde boke answereth vnto Sir Thomas More which laboureth to proue purgatorye by scripture ¶ The thirde boke maketh answere vnto my lorde of Rochestre which most leaneth vnto the doctoures ☞ Beware lest any man come and spoyle you thorow philosophye and deceytfull vanite thorow the tradicions of men and ordinacions after the worlde and not after Christ. ☜ Colossenices ii Johan Frith vnto the Christen Reader GRace and peace be with the christen reader I am sure there are manye that will moch mer uel and counte it a greate presumpcion that I beinge so yon ge and of so smalle lerninge da re atteÌ„pte to dispute this matter ageÌ„st these thre personages of the which numbre two that is to saye my 〈◊〉 de of Rochestre aÌ„d Sir thomas More are aun cient meÌ„ both of greate witte and dignite Notwithstondinge I wil desire them pacientlye 〈◊〉 heare mine answere not aduertysinge who spea keth the wordes but rathere what is sayed And as concerninge myne youth let them remembre what paule monischeth 〈◊〉 Timo. 〈◊〉 willinge that Timothens shuld instrude the congregacion and that no man shulde despice his youthe for as the sprete of god is bouÌ„de to no place eueÌ„ so is he not addicre to any age or person but enspireth when he will and where he wil makin 〈◊〉 the yonge to se visioÌ„s espye the truth and â—…he eldres to dreame dreames and to wandre in phantasyes Ades 2. Joeâ—… 2. And as touchinge my lâ—…ninge I must nedes aknowiege as the truth is that it is verysmal neuerthelesse that litle as I am bounde haue I determed by goddes grace to bestowe to the edefyinge of christes congregacioÌ„ which I praye god to encrease in the knowlege of his worde I wolde not that any man shulde admitte my wordes or lerninge excepte they will stonde with the scripture and be approued therbye Laye them to the touchstone aÌ„d trye them with goddes worde If they be founde false aÌ„d countrefaite then dampne them and I shall also reuoâ—…e them with all myne harte But if the scri pture alowe them that you can not denye but it so is then reciste not the doctrine of god but knowlege youre ignoraunce and seduccion and retourne gladlye in to the right waye For if you can not improue it by goddes worde and yet of an hate and malicious minde that you beare vnto the truth laboure to resist it and coÌ„ 〈◊〉 it that it shulde not sprede I ensure you youre sinne is â—…remissible and euen agenst the holye gost and the bloude of them that perish for faute of enstruccion shalbe requyred on youre handes â—…araduenture some of you will saye that youre fathers and olde 〈◊〉 with ma ny holye men and doctoureo haue so heleued that therfore you will abyde by the olde I an swere The wayes and iudgementes of god are mâ—…ruelous who 〈◊〉 whethere god haue suffered his 〈◊〉 to erre and be seduced for a 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 that the vnfaithfull which wold not beleue the truth but had pleasure in iniquite might stâ—…ble at their erroure in to their 〈◊〉 confusion and ruyne Al though a maÌ„ be neuer so faithfull and holye yet is there moch imperfâ—…ction in him as longe as he is included in this mortall bodye how be it it is not imputed vnto him but thorow the faith in christes bloude hoellye pacefyed and forgeuen And ther fore it is not sure that we folowe their exterior workes or other imaginacions but let vs euer conferre them vnto the pure worde of god and as the 〈◊〉 testefyeth so let 〈◊〉 thâ—… 〈◊〉 lorde of Rochestre doth testefye him silfe writinge vppoÌ„ the. 〈◊〉 article that there are manye poyntes both of the gospels and other scriptures which are now discussed more 〈◊〉 lye and more clerelye vnderstondeÌ„ then they ha ue bene in tymes past And addeth furthermore that there are diuerse places iÌ„ scripture yet sum deale darke which he douteth not but that they shalbe more open and light vnto ourâ—… posterite for why shall we despayre of that sayeth he sith that the scripture is for that entent lefte with vs that it maye be vnderstonde of vs exactlye and to the vttmost poynte Of this maye you euidentlâ—…e perceaue that â—…he olde fathers and holye doctoures haue not sene all the truth But sumwhat is also lefte thorow the hye prouision of god to be discussed of their successoures And therfore is it not mete that we streyght wayes cleaue vnto their wordes with out any further enserchinge the scriptures but we must examine all thinges by the scriptures although S. Paule or Peter shulde preach it vnto vs as we se experience Actes xvij that when Paule preached the audience daylye serched the scriptures whether it were as he sayed But you haue bene of longe continuaunce secluded from the scriptures which is the cause of such grosse erroures as ye are now fallen in so that ye coulde neyther serch them nor yet once loke on them Alas what blindnes doth occupye oure eyâ—…s Are ye so childishe to beleue that the same worde which hath made the vnfaithfull and heretikes faithfull and christen in tymes past is now so farre altered that it shulde cause the faithfull and christen to become he retiâ—…es I praye god open youre eyes How be it we maye now wel tast at oure fingres endes that we haue longe bene in that miserable case that Paule prophesyed vppon vs. ij Thessalo ij that god hath sent vs stronge delusions because we wolde not receave the knowlege of the truth what greater delusion can we haue then to thinke that the verye worde of god which was writen for oure comforte which is the verye fode and sastenaunce of oure soules which is the sure metyarde and perfeyte touchstone that iudgeth and examineth all thinges to thinke I saye that this holesome worde shulde be oure poyson and condempnacyon And al be it oure forefathers haue ly â—…ed with out it and receaved all for truth that oure prelates belyes haue imagined yet is not their faute and oures a like although I tan not excuse their ignoraunce but that it is sinne before the face of god for they had not the light of goddes worde opened vnto them Now sith we haue the light declared vnto vs and yet will proceade in blinde ignorauncye and not coÌ„â—…rre and examine these iuglinge mistes with the light of goddes worde oure ignoraunce is wilfull and with out excuse Suffer therfore all thinges what so euer they be to be tryed and examined by the scripture If they be true then shall the scripture do them no hurte but stablish and strengthen them for the scripture discloseth nothinge but falsehed and condempneth nothinge but that is damnable And now
to descende vnto oure matter and disputacion which is of purgatorye I shall shewe you what occasion I had to take it in hande I wrote a letâ—…ter vnto a certayne frynde in englonde desyringe him instantlye to sende me certayne 〈◊〉 which I thought necessarye for my vse and were not to be gotten in these partyes as the cronicles Sir Thomas Mores boke agenst the supplicacion of beggers and certen other These bokes I reâ—… vppon S. Thomas daye before Christmas theyeare of oure sauioure a. M. ccccc and. XXX with a lettre writen in this forme Sir I haue sent you such bokes as you wrote for and one moo of Rastels makinge wherin he goeth aboute to proue purgatorye by natural philosophye which thinge quod he I think be more easye to do then to proue it by any good scripture 〈◊〉 This stuffe receaved I was mervelouslye desyrous and tickled to se what reasons he brought for his probacions And in the beginninge and prologe of the boke he sette seven reasons which he sayed that fonde felowes alleged for them to proue that there coulde be no purgatorye And in dede they are verye fonde that wolde denye purgatorye if there were no better argumentes to confute it then he assigneth But by goddes gra ce I will propounde seven tymes seven which shall haue such pith that their paynfull purgatorye shall not be able to abyde the worst of them for these seven that 〈◊〉 assigneth are not worth one bene Uvhen I had red and wel pondered these rea sons I thought that he shuld sharpelie haue confuted them as he might full well haue done speciallye â—…ith they were but of his awne imaginacyon Neuerthelesse when I came vnto his solucions I founde not one but it had â—…erten poyntes repugnaunte vnto the scripture vnto which onâ—…e reason must euer be obe dient yee and also they were extremelye iniutious vnto christ and his precious bloude Then left I him and red sir Thomas Moâ—…es boke to se what scripture might be brought for that purposse And after that made I diliget enquyre to come by my lorde of Rochesters boke which also writeth on the same matter aÌ„d when I had wel examined their reasons and had sene the ordre and processe of the scriptures which they alleged I founde that clerelye vere fyed which Aulus Gellius saieth that it were a greate deale better for a man to be sharpeâ—… lye rebuked yee and openlye to haue his fautes published of his enemye then to be coldlye and slenderlye praysed of his frende For a mannes enemie ensercheth narowlye aÌ„d gathereth to gi ther all that he can imagyne and so accuseth 〈◊〉 maÌ„ more of a fumous heate then of any verite and therfore the audience if they be wyse con sidre his wordes therafter and so geue verye small credence or els none vnto them But if a mâ—…nnes frinde before audience do prayse him slenderlye and coldlye it is an argument that the person is verye fautye for a frinde beholdeth al qualityes and circumstaunces his birth bringinge vpp and what feates he hath done all his liffe longe yee and applieth manye thinges vnto his frindes prayse which serue but smallye for it for he will leaue nothinge behinde that maye he imagened to employe his frendes fame aÌ„d honoure Now if in all these poyn res he can not coloure out a glorious apparent laude but is compelled for lacke of matter to prayse his frinde slenderlye then if the audien ce be wyse they maye sone coniecture that he is no prayse worthye and also maye well doubte whether that small prayse which he gaue him be true or not Euen so when I had red these bokes of Sir Thomas More and my lorde of Rochestre and sawe the smalle probacions aÌ„d â—…lender reasons that those two wittye and lerned men had brought to confirme purgatorye consideringe also that they are the chefest frindes proctoures and patrones therof and that they had applyed manye reasons aÌ„d scriptures for their pourposse for lacke of matter that rather made agenst them yee and not that onlye but also that they dissented betwene theÌ„ selues in their probacions for M. More sayeth that there is no water in purgatorye And my lorde of rochestre saveth that there is water there Master More sayeth that the ministres of the punishment are deuels And my lorde of rochestre sayeth that the ministres of the punishmeÌ„t are aungels master More sayeth that both the grace and cherite of them that lye in the paynes of purgatorye are in creased My lorde of Ro chestre sayeth that the soules in purgatorye on tayne there neyther more faith nor grace nor cherite then they brought in with them These thinges considered it made myne harte yerne and fullye to consent that this their paynfull purgatorye was but a vayne imaginacion and that it hath of longe tyme but deceaued the people and miâ—…ed them from their monye Notwithstondinge god hath lefte vs two pur gatoâ—…yes One to purge the herte and clense it from the filth which we haue partelye receaued of Adam for we are by nature the children of wrath Ephe. ii and partlye added therto by coÌ„sentinge vnto oure natural infirmite This pur gatorie is the worde of god as christ sayeth Io. xv Now are ye clene for the worde which I ha ue spoken vnto you This purgacioÌ„ obtayneth no maÌ„ but thorow faith for the vnfaithfull are not purged by the worde of god as the scribes and pharisees were nothinge the better for hea ringe his worde but rather the worse for it was a testimonye agenst them vnto their condemnacion And because we receaue this purgacion onlye thorow beleuinge the worde therfore is the vertue of this purginge applied also vnto faith for Peter saieth Ac. xv that the geÌ„tles har 〈◊〉 were purged thorow faith that is to saye thorow beleuinge the worde And what worde is that verelye the preachinge that christes deeth hath fullye fatisfyed for oure sinnes and pacefyed foreuer the fathers wrath towar des vs. 〈◊〉 This faith purefyeth the harte and geueth vs a will and gladnes to do what so euer oure most mercifull father commaundeth vs. Neuerthelesse because oure infirmitâ—…e is so greate and oure membres so weake and frayle that we can not eschewe sinne as oure harte wolde and as oure will desyreth therfore hath god lefte vs a no ther purgatorye which is christes crosse I meane not his materyal crosse that he him silfe died on but a spretuall crosse which is aduersite tribulacion worldlye depression 〈◊〉 And this is called the rod or scourge of god wherwith he scourgeth euerye sonne that he receaueth that we maye remembre his lawe and mortefye the olde Adam and fleshlye lust which els wolde wate so rebellious that it wolde subdue vs rai â—…ne in vs and holde vs thraulde vnder sinne when so euer we haue committed a cryme theu is god present with this rod as he sayth psalm lxxxix
maye se his wayes walke in theÌ„ praysinge the lorde eternallye Amen The first boke whych is an an swere vnto Rastels dialoge THere is no maÌ„ as I think that hath a natural wirte but he wil graunte me that thys boke of Rastels makinge is either true or false If it be false then how so euer it seme to agre wyth naturall reason it is not to be alowed yf it be true then must we approue it Naturall reason must be ruled by scripture If naturall reason conclude agenst scrypture so is it false but if it be agreynge to scripture then is it to be harde Of this maye I conclude that if Rastels boke be agreinge to scripture then is it true and to be alowed yf it determe contrarye to the scripture then is it false and to be abhorred how so euer it seme to agre with naturall reason Now is there no christen man but he beleueth surelye that if Chryst had not dyed for oure sin nes we shuld all haue bene dampned perpetuallye and neuer haue entred in to the ioyes of heauen which thynge is easye to be proued for paule sayeth Roma 5. As thorow one mannés sinne that is Adam ensued deth in all men vnto condemnacyon Euen so thorow one mannes right wisnes which is christ came right wysnes in all men vnto the iustificacyon of lyfe Also Johan xi It it necessarye that one man dye for the people that all the people perish not so that we had bene condempned had perished perpe tuallye if christ had not died for vs. But Rastel wyth hys turcke Gingemin exclude Christ and know not of hys deeth wherfore all the reasoÌ„s that they can make vnto domesdaye can neuer proue purgatorye excepte they imagyne that we must fyrst go to purgatorye and then after 〈◊〉 hell for this is a playne conclusion that with out christ whoÌ„ they exclude we caÌ„ neuer come to heauen what fondnes were it then to inveÌ„t a purgatorye Now maye you se that Rastels boke is fullye answered and syeth all readye in the dirte And that hys thirde dialoge is all fal se aÌ„d iniurious vnto the bloude of christ As for the first and seconde dialoge although there be some erroures both agenst diuinite aÌ„d all good philosophye yet wil I passe them ouer for they are not so blaspemous agenst god and his christ as the thyrde is Not with stondinge I wyll not thus leaue hys boke although I myght full well but I wyll declare vnto you what solucyons he maketh to these seauen weake reasons whych he hath propounded hym silfe for he auoydeth theÌ„ so slenderlye that yf a man had any doubte of purgatorie before it wolde make him swere on a boke that there were none at al. Besides that it hath not onesolucioÌ„ but there are in it certeÌ„ poyntes repugnaunte vnto scripture so that it is greate shame that any cristen man shulde preÌ„ te it moch more shame that it shulde be prented with the kinges priuilege The first and chefest reason that moueth thys man yee and all other to affirme purgatorye is thys which he putteth both in the first chaptre oâ—… hys thirde dialoge aÌ„d also in the last Man sayeth he is made to serue and honoure god now if man be negligent aboute the commaundmentes of god and committe some veniall sinne for which he ought to be punyshed by the iustice of god and dye sodenlye with out repentaunce and haue not made suffycyent satisfaccyon vnto god here in the 〈◊〉 hys sou le ought neyther immediatlye to come in to the gloryous place of heaueÌ„ because it is sum what defouled with sinne neyther ought it to go to hell vnto eternall dampnacy on buâ—… by all good 〈◊〉 of iustice that soule must be puâ—… gâ—…d in a nother place to make 〈◊〉 for those effences that it maye afterwarde be receâ—…ued in to the gloryous place of heaueÌ„ And so by y â— iusti ce of god there must nedes he a purgatorye 〈◊〉 this reason hath â—…ome apperaunre of truth the similitnde of Wiâ—…dom how be it in dede it is nothinge but mannes imaginacy on and phantasie For if we coÌ„pare it vnto â—…od des worde then vanisheth it awaye But we re garde not the worde of the lorde and therfore chaunceth euen the same thinge vnto vs that happened before vnto the chyldren of Israell psal 81. My people regarded not my voyce and Israell gaue no head vnto me therfore let I theÌ„ go after the appetites of their awne hartes They shall wandre in thyer awne imaginacioÌ„s Now what go they aboute in this their inuencyon and imaginacyoÌ„ of purgatorye but to pon dre the ustice of god in the balance of mannes iustice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is no reason that we shulde entre in to heauen which haue not here satisfy 〈◊〉 vnto god for oure iniquite excepte that we shuld be tour meÌ„ted purefyed in a nother place we were surelie in euell takinge if god were of maÌ„nes coÌ„plexyon whych remitteth y â— faute reserueth the payne Naye naye 〈◊〉 is not greadie to be aueÌ„ged He tristeth not after oure blonde but suffered al tourmeÌ„tes in his awne bodie to deliuer vs froÌ„ the paynes y â— we had de serued But 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 their reason so stronge 〈◊〉 I will conâ—…ute it with one 〈◊〉 y â— they shall not knowe whether to toue ne theÌ„ But first I will grouÌ„dâ—… me vppon thys scripture S. pause 〈◊〉 1. Chessa 4. on thys maner we y â— liue and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in y â— cominge of the lorde vnto â—…udgemet shall not come yerte they y â— slepe for the 〈◊〉 de 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shal descende from heaueÌ„ with a shute aÌ„d y e voice of the archangle aÌ„d tâ—…ompe oâ—… god And y â— deed in christ shal arise first theÌ„ shall we which 〈◊〉 re mayne be caught vp with theÌ„ also in y â— cloudes to mete the lorde in the ayer and so shall we euer be with y â— lorde Now harkeÌ„ to mi queitioÌ„ Those men that shalbe founde alyue at the last daye for as it was in the time of Noe euen so shall y â— last daye come uâ—…pon vs vnwares as a thefe in the night Mat. 24. those meÌ„ I speake of shal any of theÌ„ be saued or not There is no man that lyueth but he maye well saye hys pa ter noster of the which one parte is forgeue vs lorde oure trespaces as we forgeue them y â— tres pace ageÌ„st vs therfore is no maÌ„ pure and wyth out all sinne And this coÌ„firmeth S. Jo. sayenge If we saye we haue no sinne we deceaue ou re selues and the truth is not in vs. i. Iohan. i. what remedie now shal they al be daÌ„ned The re is no doubte but some of them shall not be verie euell all though they haue not made suffi cient satisfaccioÌ„ vnto god in thys worlde they ought not to go vnto hel to
in scripture for so shall he be sure not to sinne theÌ„ to beleve for an article of the faith that thin ge which is false in dead for so shulde he surelye sinne and transgresse agenst god and his holye worde And so is there greate perell to beleue a thinge for an article of the faith which is not opened nor spoken of in scripture But if I beleue it not allthough it were true yet is there no right nor lawe that can condemne me Now ma ye you se that to beleue for an article of y e faith that there is a purgatorie sith it can not be pro ved by scripture maye condemne a man make him lye for ever in the paynes of hell where as the tother shulde but a litle lenger lye in the paynes of purgatorye if there were one aÌ„d so shall he be sure to catch most harme that beleveth there is a purgatory Savinge sayeth ma ster More that his heresye shall kepe him from thence and sende him doune depe in to hell Before he supposed that it coulde not be proved by scripture And now stondinge the sa 〈◊〉 supposicyon he calleth it an heresye and an heresye is a stiffe holden opinion repugnaunte vnto scripture If purgatorye can not be proved by scripture as he maketh his supposition then can not the contrarye opinion be nepugnaunte to scripture and thus of his awne supposition he doth evell to call it an heresye And where he sayth that his opinion shall sende him doune depe in to hell verelye he steppeth to farre in goddes iudgement to conclude and detâ—…ne so cruellye aÌ„d speciallie in the same ar gument where he supposeth that it can not be proved for if it can not be proved by scripture wherbye will ye coÌ„demne him so depe that holdeth y â— contrarye forsouth you are a firce iudge god geue you yies to se. â—…inallye if ye pitye any man in payne never knew ye payne comparable to oures whose fire passeth as farre in heate all the fyres that ever burned vppon erth as y â— hotest of all those passeth a fayned fyre paynted on a walle 〈◊〉 emonge all his other poetrye it is re ason that we graunte him this yee and that ou re fyre is but water in comparison to it For I ensure you it hath alone melted more golde and siluer foroure spiritualtyes profite out of poore mennes purses then all the golde smythes fy res with in englonde neyther yet therwith can the raginge heate be aswaged But it melteth castels harde stones londes and tenementes in numerable For all youre sectes of religion moÌ„kes fryres chanons and nunnes with other pre estes regulare and seculare by this fyre multiplication and alcuniye haue obtayned their ho le riches and pleasures eveÌ„ the swete of englon de And so must we graunte him that this fire is 〈◊〉 hote Now maye you well perceave what a slender fundacion their note purgatorye hath For by this confutacion maye you easilye se that it hath no grounde nor auctorite of scripture Not withstandinge it is the fundacyoÌ„ of all religioÌ„s and cloysters yee and of all the goodes y t now are in the spiritualtye Are not they wyttye wor kemen which can buylde so moch on so slender a fundacioÌ„ How be it they haue made it so top pehevye that it is surelye like to haue a falie Thus hath Master More a full aâ—…swere both to his scriptures which were to farre wrested out of their places and also to his awne apparent reasons How be it if his mastershippe be not fullye pacyfyed let him more groundlye opeÌ„ his minde and bringe for his purposse all that he thinketh to make for it and I shall by goddes grace shortlye make him an answere and guyet his minde ☜ ¶ Thus endeth the seconde boke ☜ ¶ The thirde boke which answereth vnto my lorde of Rochestre and declareth the minde of the olde doâ—…oures NOw will I addresse me to the thirde parte which shalbe an answere vnto my lorde of Rochestre And al his reasons and argumentes both of scriptures and doctures which are not be fore dissolued in the secoÌ„de par te will I clene confute by goddes grace in this thirde boke How be it the che fest of his scriptures hath Master More pervsed aÌ„d hath in a maner nothinge but that was before writen by my lorde of Rochestre savinge that he maketh the selye soules to pule to helpe his matter with all My lorde of Rochestre is the first patrone and defeudar of this phantasye And even as Master More toke his worke out of my lorde â—…f Rochestres even so plucked Rastell as his boke out of Master Mores My lorde of Rochestre to confirme his sentence rekeneth vpp the doctoures by heape ma ster Johan master Uvyllyam master Thomas et omnes But as concerninge the doctoures y â— they are not so fullye on hys syde as he wolde make them seme is sone proved And where shulde I better beginne to confute him then of his awne wordes for he writeth him silfe vppon the. xviij article on this maner ☞ ☜ â—…Here is no man now a dayes that douteth of purgatorye sayeth he and yet emonge the old auncient fathers was there eyther none or els verye seldome mencyon made of it And also emonge the grecians even vnto this daye is not purgatorye beleved Let him read y t will the commentaryes of the olde grecians and as I suppose he shall finde eyther no worde spokeÌ„ of it or els verye fewe these are my lordes wordes I wondre what obliuiousnes is comeÌ„ vppoÌ„ him that he so cleaveth vnto the doctures whoÌ„ he affirmed before eyther to make no mencyon of it or els verye seldome Notwithstondinge I will declare you somwhate of the doctures that you maye the better know their meaninge To speake of the doctures and what their minde was in this matter it were necessarye to declare in what tyme they were and what condi cyon the worlde was in in their dayes S. Austyne Ambrose and Nierome were in one tyme even aboute iiij hundred yeare after Christ aÌ„d yet before their tyme were there arisen infinite heretikes by hole sectes as the Arryans Domi tians Eunomians vigilaÌ„cians â—…lagians with infinite other which had so swerved from the truth and wrested the scripture out of frame y â— it was not possible for one man no nor for one mannes age to restore it agayne vnto the true sense Emonge these there were some which not onlye fayned a purgatorye but alsoo dooted so farre that they affirmed that everye man were he never so vicions shulde be saved thorow y t fyre and alleged for them the place of Daule 1. Lorinthiorum iij. These holye doctoures perceyvinge those greate erroures thought it not best by by to condemnne all thinges indiffereÌ„t lye But to suffre and dissemble with the lesse that they might wede out the opinions which wâ—…re most
hath not so alowed y â— hole doctrine of S. thomas That meÌ„ shulde beleue everye â—…oyn te he wrote were true Neither hath the church so approued eyther S. Augustyne or S. Hierom no nor any other auctours doctrine but that in some places we maye dissent from them for they in many places haue openlye declared them selves to be men and manye tymes to ha ve erred These are my lordes awne wordes Now sith the doctours somtime erre and in cer tayne places are not to be admitted as he grauÌ„ teth hym silfe how shulde we knowe when to approue them and when to denye them If wâ—… shulde hange on the doctoures auctorite then shulde we as well alowe y â— vntruth as y â— truth sith he affirmeth both Therfore we must haue a iudge to disserne betwene truth and falsehed And who shuld that be the Pope Naye 〈◊〉 lye for he beynge a man as well the doctoures were maye erre as they dyd and so shall we ever be vncertayne Oure iudge therfore must not be percyall flexible nor ignoraunte and so are all natural meÌ„ excluded but he must be inal terable even serchinge the botome and grounde of all thinge who must that be verelye the scripture and worde of god whych was geuen by hys sonne confirmed and sealed by the holye gost and testefyed by myracles and bloude of all martyrs Thys worde ys the iudge that must examyne the matter the perfeyte touchstone that tryeth all thinge and daye that disâ—… seth al iuggelinge mistes If the doctoures saye anye thynge not dyssonaunte from thys worde then ys yt to be admitted and holden for truth But yf any of theyr doctrine dyscorde from yâ—… it is to be abhorred aÌ„d holden a curste To thys full well agreeth S. Austine which writeth vnto S. Hyerome on this wyse Dear brother I thinke that you will not haue youre bokes reputed like vnto the workes of the prophetes and apostles for I the scrypture reserved do read all other mennes workes on that maner that I do not beleue them because the auctoure so sayth be he never so well lerned aÌ„d holye excepte that he can certefye me by y â— scrip ture or cleare reason that he sayeth true And even so wolde I that other men shulde readâ—… my bokes as I reade theyrs These are S. Austyns wordes And thus haue I proved both by Saynt Augustyne aÌ„d also by my lordes aw ne wordes that no man is bouÌ„de to beleue the doctours excepte they can be proued true either by scrypture or good reason not repugnaunte to scrypture Therfore let vs se what scripture or good reason my lorde bryngeth to approue hys doctours withall For els they can not helpe him as we haue declared both by S. Augustyne and my lordes awnâ—… confession although they all made with him as they do not First he bringeth in the sinne ageÌ„st the holy gost Mat. xii And paule i. Cor. iii. And. 1. Joan. 5. And apo calipsis 5. whych textes I passe ouer because I haue answered vnto them before in the seconde boke agenst Master More THe first reason that my lorde hath whych is not before soluted for as I sayed y â— rea sons y t are all readye dissolued will I now ouer hippe ys thys which he groundeth on diuerse scriptures Of y â— soules y â— are departed some a re all readye daÌ„pned in hell aÌ„d some are all readye in heaven And to proue thys true he allegeth the parable of the rych man Luce. xv I am sure my lorde is not so ignoraunt as to saye that a parable proueth anye thynge But the ryght vse of a parable is this to expouÌ„ de an harde texte or pointe that was before tou ched aÌ„d coulde not entre in to euerye maÌ„nes capacite â—…yther are all thynges like which are spoken in a similitude neyther yet all thynges true that are touched in a parable but we must consyder the thinge wherfore they be spokeÌ„ aÌ„d applye theÌ„ onlye to that they are spoken for aÌ„d let the resydue goo as wyllyam Tindale hath wel declared vnto you in the parable of wicked 〈◊〉 Thys parable is verye harde to be expounded The cause ys this no man can well espye by the texte for what purposse it was spoken But this shulde seme to be the cause that there were manye of the pharisees aÌ„d other mul titude whych wolde not beleue the preachingâ—… of Christ although he coÌ„firmed his worâ—…s with the auctorite of Moses and the prophetes but they were curious and somedeale phantasticall and therfore wolde they not beleue hys wordes excepte some apparycyons had bene made vn to them that they myght haue bene assured by theÌ„ that were before deed that hys wordes were true Unto such yt ys lyke that he speaketh this parable playnlye concludynge that they shulde haue no such apparyâ—…yons of the deed and also that yt was not â—…cessarye but that they had Moses and the prophetes to whom if they wolde gâ—…ue no credence then shulde â—…hey not 〈◊〉 leue although one of the deed shuld ryse agayâ—… and tell yt thâ—… Notwithstondinge let me graunte it hym that some are all readye in hell and some in heauen which thinge he shall never be able to proue bi the scripture yee and whych playnlye destroyeth the resurrexion and taketh awaye the argu mentes wherwith christ aÌ„d paule do proue that we shall ryse yet I saye let me graunte yt hym to se how he will conclude what foloweth on y t Neyther it is credible sayeth he that all which are not cast in to hell shulde streyght waye goo to heauen therfore must we put a purga torye where they maye be purged I answere All that lyue are faithfull or vn faythfull If he be vnfaithfull then is he dampned Ioan. â—…ii If he beleue theÌ„ is he not condeÌ„p ned but is gone from deeth to lyfe Ioan. 3. 5 The rightwyse man when he dyeth shall rest in peâ—…ce Sapi. iii. And everye faithfull maÌ„ is right wyse before god as the hole pystle to the Romans proueth Ergo then euerye faithfull man shall rest in peace and not be tormented in the paynes of purgatorye And as touchinge thys poynte where they rest I dare be bolde to saye that they are in the hande of god and that god wolde that we shulde be ignorauÌ„te where they be and not to take vppon vs to determine the matter Parad veÌ„ture you wolde enquyre of me sith y â— parable sayeth y â— Lazarê° rested in AbrahaÌ„s bo some what AbrahaÌ„s bosome is To y â— wolde I aÌ„swere y â— AbrahaÌ„s bosome were nothinge els theÌ„ AbrahaÌ„s fayeth for all we are called y â— chyldreÌ„ of AbrahaÌ„ because of his perfeite faith wh ich we ought to folow in this faith are manye 〈◊〉 in a maner infinite degrees notwhitstoÌ„diÌ„ge if it beno greter theÌ„ a 〈◊〉 sed y t is to saie verye yet shall yt save vs. He that departeth in
thys fayth resteth in peace and wayteth for the last daye when god shall geue vnto hys faythfull that is to hys electe for onlye are the electe fay thfull and the faythfull electe the croune of his glorye whych he hath prepared for them that lo ue hym Thys croune doth paule saye that he shall receaue yt in that daye 2. Timo. 4. that is in the daye of iudgement And in the meane cea son god hath so prouyded for vs that they shal wayte vntysl the numbre of theyr brothreÌ„ why ch daylie suffre and shall suffre for christ be hoe lye fulfilled and so shall they not be made perfeyte with out vs. Nebre xi If my lorde wyll vnderstonde by Abrahams bosome heauen I will not be contencyous let the chrysten iudge whych sentence semeth most true But thys is once a clere case that of thys he can proue no purgatorye For the vnfaythfull are all reâ—… dye dampned and the fayethfull rest in peace let him call that what he will whether to rest in heaven or to rest in theyr sayeth vntyll the last daye For I am sure there ys no man so mad as to saye that to rest in peace shulde sygnyfle to lye in the paynes of purgatorye â—…urthermore thys texte shall rather make sore agenst hym then any thynge with â—…ym For Lazarus whyles he was lyvinge was not wythout synne nor no man els 1. Ioh annes 1. so that no wan as longe as he hath breath in hys bodye can saye that he ys wyth out synne for then shulde he make Sa ynt Johan a lyar And yet was not Lazarus caryed in to purgatorye to be purged of hys synnes whych were remaynynge in his bodye the houre of his deeth wherfore I maye conclude that there is no such purgatorye For god is as iust vnto him as vnto vs and therfore wolde he purge him as well as vs and agayne he is as mercifull vnto vs as vnto him and will as well forgeus vs as him with out broylinge on the coles in purgatorye for his iustice and mercye are ever one and not alterable But oure perfeyte purgacion is the pure bloude of Christ which wassheth awaye the sinne of the worlde And albe it we ever haue the remnauntes and dregges of sinne and rebellion of oure membres as longe as we haue liffe yet are they hoellye finished in deeth for of such efficacâ—… te is christes deeth that it hath tourned y â— deeth of his faithfull which was layed vppon vs as the payne of sinne in to a medicyne agenst sinne whicâ—… fullye cureth it and maketh an ende of it as it was well figured in golâ—…s that was slayne with his awne swerde 〈◊〉 where as my lorde bringeth for hispur posse Mat. xii that men shall geue accouÌ„p tos of everye idle worde I haue soluted that be fore agenst master More that I thinke he shall saye him silfe that he is answered For if men shall geue a rekeninge for them on the daye of dome as the texte sayeth that shulde rather argue that there were no purgatorye wherin tho se sinnes shulde be purged for if they had bene purged before of them then shulde they not geue an accoumptes for theÌ„ And if it proved any thinge at all it shulde proue that there were a purgatorye after domesdaye which no maÌ„ waâ—… ever so folish as to graunte But the true vnderstondinge of this texte is this There are two kindes of men one fayth full the other vnfaithfull The faithfull thorow their faith in christes bloude are all readye fullye purged in their harte and their rebellious mâ—…res thorow deeth are hoellye subdued The se men shall geue no rekeninge neyther of idle worde nor evell dede For all their sinnes are co vered of Christ and his bloude shall geue the hoell accoumptes for them The vnfaithfull vnto their vtter confusion shall haue the boke of their conscience opened aÌ„d there shall be preseu ted before them al their evell dendes wordes aÌ„d thoughtes And these are they that christ speaketh off which shal geue this greate accoumptâ—… Note also that in the texte they are called men which worde in scripture is ever for the most parte takeÌ„ in y â— worst sense and signifyeth wyked men fleshlye men and men that folowe theyr awne lu stes aÌ„d appetites ☜ â—…hen confirmeth he purgatorye out of thâ—… 〈◊〉 Psalme which sayeth we haue gonâ—… thorow fire ad water and thou hast brought 〈◊〉 in to colenesse I am sure you haue not forgoteâ—… that Master More allegeth the prophete zachâ—… rye in the. ix and affirmeth that there is no waâ—… ter in purgatorye It were harde to make theâ—… two agre for when men grounde them on a lyâ—… then for the most parte theyr tales and probaâ—… ons are contrarye and will not well â—…onde 〈◊〉 gither Neverthelesse in one poynte they agâ—… full well that is both of them saye vntrulye 〈◊〉 neither nother texte serveth anie whitte for pâ—… â—…atorye And as concerninge the place of zacharye it is suffecieÌ„tlye declared whath it meaneth And now will I also declare you the vnderâ—… dinge of this texte and first that it can not serve for purgatorye I vesech you that haue the psalter once to reaâ—… the psalme and I thinke you shal wondre at their dotinge dreames and ignoraunce which allege this texte for purgatorye The textâ—… of the psalme is this thou hast brought vs in to a strayght and laded oure backes with trouble or 〈◊〉 Thou hast sette men vppon oure heedes we hauâ—… gone thorow fyre and water and thou hast ledde vs out agay ne in to a place of refreshinge The textes befo re and after in the same psalme will not suffâ—… that this place shulde be vnderstonde of purga torye For the texte immediatlye before sayeth thou hast sette men vppon oure heedes But y â— thefest defendars of purgatorye and even Ma stre More him silfe saye that they are not men but devels which torment the soules in purgatorye notwithstandinge my lorde of Rochestre good man affirmeth that they are aungels which tourment the soules there but never man dooted so farâ—…re as to saye that men tourment the soules in purgatorye wherfore I maye conclude that his texte is not ment of purgatorye but that the prophete ment that men ranne over the children off Israhell and subdued them and wrapped them in extreme troubles which in the scripture are signified by fire water Besydes y t y â— textes folowinge wil not admitte y t this shulde be vnderâ—…de of purgatorye for it foloweth immediatlye I wil eÌ„tre in to thy housse with burntofferinges I shal of fre uÌ„toy â— fatte sacrifices with y â— reke of wethers I shall burne to the oxen and gotes Now is there no man so madde as to thinke that y â— soules of purgatorye shulde offre vnto god any such sacrifices So that the texte is playnlye vn