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A87231 The Quakers quaking: or, the foundation of their deceit shaken, by scripture, reason, their own mouthes at several conferences. By all which will appear, that their quaking, ministery, doctrine, and lives, is a meer deceit, and themselves proved to be the great impostors of these latter times: / by Jeremiah Ives. Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674. 1656 (1656) Wing I1103; Thomason E883_3; ESTC R207296 36,620 64

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and yet you are so impudent as to say That None can come but they that come to perfection The fourteenth Errour is 14 Error That James Nayler in his book call'd Love to the Lost p. 23 speaking of the Lords Supper saith That at all seasons whensoever they eat or drink they were to have communion with the Body and Blood of the Lord in their eating and drinking though it were at the Gentiles or Unbelievers Table alluding to that place of Scripture 1 Cor. 10.27 And another of them in a Book of theirs call'd Truths Defence against refined Subtilty pag. 100. calls a man Carnal Sot for asking whether Paul did administer the Lords Supper with Bread and Wine and thereupon demands Whether the Apostles did give to the Corinthians Bread and Wine The fifteenth Errour is That James Parnel in his Book call'd A Shield of Truth hath these words viz. That he denies all Baptism but that of the holy Ghost and Fire See page 12. Another of them in a Book call'd Truths Defence against refined Subtilty hath these words he being asked Whether Christ did command his Disciples to baptize with water or whether they did baptize with water he answers That the querent had shewed his subtilty in being ignorant of the Letter alluding to that place Matth. 28.19 But I demand Why these perfect men cannot speak perfect sense for what subtilty is it for a man to be ignorant yet he tells his querent he hath shewed his subtilty in being ignorant But to the thing it self viz. That there is no baptism but that of the Spirit and Fire when as the Scripture tells us of a baptism with water which is also required of them that do believe But to evade the force of the Scriptures that speak in the behalf of water-baptism they use to say That water-baptism did end when other Ceremonies of the Law ended but after the Resurrection of Christ it was not to be practised To which I answer That it was by Christ commanded after that he rose from the dead See Mat. 28. and Mark 16.16 But if any shall say This was to baptize with the Holy Ghost I demand First Whether that this baptism was not peculiar to Christ himself as appears by John's words Matth. 3.11 HE meaning Christ shall baptize with the holy Ghost and fire Secondly Whether that if the command of Mat. 28. and Mark 16. be for to command the Apostles to baptize with the holy Ghost and fire they did ever obey it if they did shew when and where Thirdly Whether we may not judge that the baptizing men and women in water in the Name of Christ which the Apostles frequently did was not in obedience to some Commission they had received from their Lord If so Fourthly Do you shew us where and when their Lord gave them a command so to do if this of Mat. 28. and Mark 16. was not it If you shall say They did it in order to the peoples weaknesses as Paul's circumcising Timothy was then I demand Fifthly Whether Paul did in the Name of the Lord Jesus impose Circumcision upon Timothy if not How doth this parallel with the case in hand viz. water-baptism which Peter Acts 10. doth command in the Name of the Lord But if you shall say That baptism with water was not commanded but left to liberty I demand Sixthly Whether to command a thing to be done in the Lords Name which he commands not be not to sin take his Name in vain See to this purpose Deut. 18.20 But the Prophet that shall presume to speak a word in my Name which I have not commanded him to speak c. even the same Prophet shall dye Seventhly And whereas it is alledged That water-baptism is a thing of indifferency that may be done or lawfully left undone I demand Whether it was not then as great a sin in Peter Acts 10. to command the doing of it in the Name of the Lord as it was for men to forbid to marry or to command to abstain from meats 1 Tim. 4.2 3. seeing that to command the doing of that which God hath left to liberty is a sin of equal extent with the forbidding of that he hath left to liberty Eighthly But if it shall be said as sometimes it is That they in the Primitive Times did receive water-baptism because they had a command immediately so to do and therefore we are not to be baptized till so commanded I answer First how will this be proved that all they that were then-baptized were so commanded is not the contrary to this easily made manifest from Acts 2. and Acts 8. and many other places where the people were mediately by means of the Apostles preaching put upon this duty and not by extraordinary Revelations But to the main Question and that is this Whether or no that this very Principle doth not lay all other Precepts waste and excuse the observance of them till I am immediately inspired thereto I believe if a man did owe a Quaker a sum of money he would be loth to be served as he would have men serve Christ As for instance Suppose I did owe James Nayler a sum of money and he should desire me to pay him and should urge this Scripture Owe nothing to any man as an argument to perswade me to pay him what if I should say It is true James this was a command to them that could witness it in themselves and when by an immediate power they were inspired to the observance of it then they were to do it but till then they did not sin in omitting of it and therefore when I can witness this Text within me I will pay thee thy money Do you think they would count this fair dealing yet in this manner would they have men deal with the commands of our Lord Jesus and the truth of it is this evasion of the command of baptism doth as forcibly evade all other Precepts in the whole Bible By this the Reader may see that these men would make the commands of God of none effect by their tradition The sixteenth Errour that I shall insist upon is 16 Error That though they say they are perfect yet they are inconsistent with themselves as appears First in as much as they make it their daily practice to preach That every man in the world hath a light within him according to that Text John 1. And yet one of their Scribes asketh a Minister of the Nation Whether he had that light which doth lighten every one that comes into the world * See for this a book of theirs cal'd Truths defence p. 3 Oh horrible blindness Did ever any man in his right wits ever ask such a question having over and over asserted that every man hath that light spoken of John 1 and yet to ask a man Whether he hath that light spoken of John 1. Surely this man did not understand that the party of whom he demanded the