the picture of Iesus or sōe of the Saints yet he cōdemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion therefore perswades him not to suffer any such thing any more for it became him to banish such superstition which was vnseemely for the Church of Christ Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19. of his diuine institutions saieth flatly that their can be no Religion where there is an image he liued florished in the yeare 320. And S Augustine who liued after al these before named for he died not before the yeare 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they euen deserue to erre which seeke Christ and his Apostles not in bookes but in painted wals Yea Gregory the great as they cal him Bishop of Rome though thē the painting of stories for an ornamēt of the church was thought tolerable yet he lib. 7. Epist 109. lib. 9. Epist 9. to Serenus slatly cōdemneth the adoring worshipping of images And whereas by occasiō of this tolerating of historicall painting of them through the superstition corruption of mans nature within short time by litle litle the worshipping of thē grew to be too much vsed liked of many especially in these Westerne parts of the Bishops of Rome thēselues by the yeare of Christ 700. the Emperour Leo the third in a coūcell held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops there with the consent of that coūcell decreed that they should be quite remoued out of churches burnt seuerely he punishes those which notwithstanding would perseuere in the worshipping of them And the same course tooke his successour Constantine by another great coūcell held their ratifying the former two Emperours more succeeding him notwithstāding al this while the Bishops of Rome with stood thē what they might decreed as fast for the retaining worshipping of thē as they could as it appeares in Sigebert Blōdus others Howbeit though also in the time of Irene the nonage of her sonne Constātine in the east through the suggestiō of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople they got there a councell helde at Nicea consisting of three hūdreth fifty Bishops where to currie fauour againe with the Bishops of Rome who vpō the former occasiō as it appears in Sigebert others had bene a shrewd traiterous meanes to cause these westerne parts to reuolt frō the empire they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images Yet Africk Asia the greater could neuer be brought to receiue those canōs there made yea that more is though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to trāslate the empire of the west vnto him so were those canōs in this point misliked cōtradicted here in thes western parts that a coūcel in his time by his meās as the Emperour being called at Francford whereunto came many Bishops of Italy Frāce Germāy other cūtries yet there euē for this point was that coūcel of Nice reiected cōdēned as a wicked councell witnes both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. also one Hinckmare not lōg after those times Archbishop of Rhemes writing against another of his name thē Bishop of Iandune or Lauedune as some cal it ca. 20. where he for further proofe of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a booke of purpose to be writen sent to Rome cōteining at large a cōfutatiō of al the reasons vsed for images at Nicea which in his yoūg yeares he saw which the keeper of the Popes library Augustine Steuchus cōfesses to lie there writē in anciēt caracters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59. nu 60. And Roger Houodē who liued 400. years ago in his cōtinuatiō of Bedeas story in the year 792. shewing how Charles sēt the canōs of that coūcel of Nice hither wherin as he saith it was decreed that images ought to bee adored which the church of God vtterly detesteth reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determinatiō maruelously grounded vpō the scriptures which he caried into France as he saith in the name of our Bishops by occasion whereof the rather it should seeme shortly after Charles thought meete to call the foresaid coūcell at Francford All these things notwithstanding neuer were images pillers and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their nor euer were idols more grosly adored of heretiques or the very pagans and heathen then they haue bene yet be of superstitious Papists For they crouch kneele vnto them present offerings before them they run a pilgrimage vnto them and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour that is due vnto them whose images and monuments they be though in an other manner not for their owne sakes but for theirs whose remembrances they be But indeed if in worshipping of them they did not principally respect the Images themselues why should there not be as great deuotion as many pilgrimages as great offerings presented yeelded to the image of Christ Mary or of any other aswell in one place as in an other Well howsoeuer they will do wickedly herein and when they haue done seeke to colour the matter such in truth all the worlde sees herein hath beene their dealing that Euthymius in his panoply had neuer more cause to name the Armenians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Idolaters to the crosse for their grosse and superstitious worshipping of it then we haue generally to count and call the Romanists flat idolaters for their behauiour towards it and other images also Thus then hoping by this that I haue said cōcerning this point that not onely thou maiest see goodreader when and how this point of popery first came in but how and by whom it hath beene oppugned but consequently also that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture fathers consent of Christian regions and al that she bragges of let vs see if wee can shew the like concerning the other point of forced single life vpō the clergy which she holds to be so necessary and holy an ordinance as that by no meanes without deadly sin it may be transgressed Euen in this as in the former if we search the monumentes of antiquity well we shal finde that they haue very auncient heretiques to be their first fathers leaders For the Tacianists commonly cald Encratites of their abstinence from mariage certaine other thinges who began about the yeare one hundred forty two were great condemners of mariage as appeares in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum in Epiphanius writing of them Heresi 46. After them spronge vp the Manichees who in like manner were enemies to mariage but not so vniuersally as the former for they permitted it to others and restraine onely their clergy from it whō they calde their elect as August witnesseth of them Epist 74. but indeed as many as
altar and the leaues of the other scattered all ouer the church wherevpon Adrian the Pope like a profound interpreter of visions gathers that it was the Lords meaning thereby to shew that S. Ambroses Lyturgy might well be vsed vpon his owne altar at Millan but the other should be vsed generally ouer all churches and thus the credit of Saint Gregories masse was first established Howbeit before transubstantiation came in which was not as I haue sayed before the yeare 1215 it was nothing the minion that it hath beene since And yet euen then it was not growen to her highest credit for about fiue yeares after it was ere that adoration or eleuation of the host was decreed for then first Honorius the 3 enacted that and the hosts holiday commonly called Corpus Christi day was not made before Pope Vrbans tyme in the year 1260. as witnesseth Polydor in his 6 booke and 8 Chapter of the inuentours of things Whereupon it may euideÌ„tly appeare that the masse as it is now is but a very youngling and one of her father the Popes youngest daughters And as for latin seruice her coÌ„panion it was first brought into England by one Theodorus sent hither by Pope Vitellian about the yeare 657. And to proceede to other pointes of Popery as it is well knowen it is an other most principall point of your religion to attribute vnto the Pope that vniuersal supremacy ouer al bishops and ouer the whole Church of Christ that you doe for you haue made it an article vnder payne of damnation to be receiued that there is no saluation but vnder his obedience and within his communion as it is set downe by Boniface the 8 in his extrauagant de maioritate obedientiâ And yet in the 6 Canon of the Nicene councell holden about the yeare 330. as some count it appeares that then the Roman bishop had his bounds and limits prescribed him aswell as the other patriarches And the generall councell of Calcedon and the 6. generall councell held at Constantinople determined Can. 36. that the bishop of that see should haue equall priueledges with the bishop of old Rome 680 yeares after Christ And appeales to Rome were forbidden vnder paine of excommunication in the couÌ„cel of Mileuitan Cap. 22. and of Africke Cap. 92. Further yet your owne proper and late councels of Constance and Basil haue not long ago greatly curtolled the supremacy that now the Pope chalength for they haue decreed that the authority of a general councel is so farre aboue him that thereby he may be condemned and deposed And though now according to your Canon Dist 40. cap. si papa your popes wil be lawles may not by any be controled though be lead people headlong by heaps to hel as it is there set downe yet I read that in Pope Symachus tyme about the yeare 500. after Christ that many bishops did accuse him then to Theodoricus king of the Gothes because he took vpon him to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is one whose wil should be a law And in the couÌ„cel of Carthage the thâ—â— there was a decree made Cap. 26. against sundry ambitious 〈◊〉 chalenged euen then as it should seeme to be due vnto the bishopâ— of Rome as that they should not be called Prince of Priestes 〈…〉 priest but bishops of the first see And howsoeuer now Hoâ—ius Belarmine and others reckon the title of ecumenicall or vniuersall bishop amongst the due and iust titles of the Pope yet it is flatly set downe as a thing vnlawful and is forbid in the 99. distinctâ—â—◠〈◊〉 by the iudgment of Pelagius bishop of Rome in the yeare 58â—â— by Gregory the first his successor And it is wel known that Gregory very directly and often condeÌ„ned this title both in Iohn bishop of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople and in al other bishops himselfe and the bishops of the see of Rome not excepted as it is euident in his 4 book of Epistles Epi. 30 38.88 in his 9 book Ep. 45. Your set daies of fasting you learned of MoÌ„tanus your placing so necessary a point of fasting in abstineÌ„ce froÌ„ flesh of the Manichees as it appears in Aug. 74. Epist wherein you are as deepe as either they or any other heretickes euer were witnes your owne Dur. li. 6. c. de ieiuniis For he there giueth this as a reason why in fasting flesh is rather abstained from then fish because al flesh was accursed and not al fish in the daies of Noe. And compare Augustines description of the Manichees fasts with yours in his 2 book de moribus ManicheoruÌ„ Cap. 13. and you shal finde theÌ„ marueilous like Further what holines soeuer you imagin to be in your forbidding your cleargy mariage and how ancient soeuer you would perswade the simple and ignorant that that order is any man may see that reads Augustines foresaied 74 Epistle his 18 Chapter of his second booke de moribus Manicheorum as the Manichees Tatimists learned to condemne mariage as they did of the Ethnicks as Clemens Alexandrinus thinketh they did Stromat 3 so you haue learned this your kind of forbidding your cleargy as you cal them marriage of them For there it appears that they allowed it amongst their ordinary hearers forbad it onely to those that studied perfection and were the chosen ones to the ministery amongst them eueÌ„ as you do But whatsoeuer either you or they say or haue sayed to the contrary for the iustifying of this your antichristian deuise as it is most cleare to any that readeth but the old testament that mariage was as allowable to the Lords priests then and as honourable accounted both of God and good men so 〈◊〉 lesse clearly doeth it appeare in the new 1. Cor. 9. 1. Tim. 3. that the lyke opinion was retained both of the honorablenes and lawfulnesse thereof for Apostles Euangelists and al other ministers of the Lord insomuch that Paul in the first of these places howsoeuer you papists seeking to hide his playne meaning disorder his words read a woman a sister for a sister a wife sheweth not onely how the brethren of the Lord and Cephas caried their Christian wiues vp and down with theÌ„ but that also it was lawful for them so to due to take maintenance where they preached for themselues theirs that he Barnabas if they listed might lawfully euen doe so also Insomuch that S. Paul 1. Tim. 4 doeth flatly aduouch the denial or forbidding therof not only as the Manichees some other heretikes haue forbiddeÌ„ it as a filthy vnlawful estate in it selfe with yet if your own report be true was Siritius opinion dist 82 is stil Gregory Martins discou ca. 11. but euen as the wisest of you defend now the denying of it to your cleargy vnder the preteÌ„ce of more holines in abstaining ther froÌ„ for a plaine doctrine of deuils For especially he speaketh of theÌ„ there that should in the later daies doe so in
AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN DE ALBINES NOTABLE DISCOVRSE AGAINST heresies as his frendes call his booke compiled by THOMAS SPARK pastor of Blechley in the County of Buck. And I heard a voice from heauen saying Come out of her my people that yee be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receaue not of her plagues Revelat. 18. vers 4. Put your selues in aray against Babylon rounde about all yee that bende the bowe shoote at her spare no arrowes for shee hath sinned against the Lord. Ierem. 50. vers 14. ACADEMIA OXONIENSIS SAPIENTIAE ET FELICITATIS Printed at Oxforde by IOSEPH BARNES Printer to the Vniversitie 1591. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE ARTHVRE LORD GREY OF WILTON Knight of the most honourable order of the Garter his especiall good Lord and Patrone Thomas Sparke Wisheth all good perseuerance in Christian courage and constancy in the profession and furtherance of Gods sincere truth with all other ornaments of true nobility to Gods glorie our comfort and his owne heart good contentation nowe and euer ALthough Right Honourable when I had first perused this treatise of Iohn de Albines I foūd it thorow out a most bitter inuectiue a malitious declamation written onely of purpose to deface disgrace amongst the simple both our religion the ministers professors thereof yet finding withal as I did as anie indifferent man that reads it shal that neither for matter nor manner of writing there is any newe thing of any importance in it which hath not beene before euer this discourse of his sawe the light oftē that far more substantially vrged by some other of that side therefore which hath not also heretofore been as oftē fully effectually answered by some or other of ours I not only iudged this to be the reason when it hauing now been amōgst vs in english these 16. or 17. yeares none hitherto had vouchsafed it any further particular answere but also though vrged as your Honour knoweth to frame vnto it a speciall direct answere I could yet hardly be brought to thinke it necessary so basely I esteemed of it to aford it any other answere then either a fewe marginal notes that whē I first red it I bestowed vpō it or frō point to point as it were in a table to haue shewed the reader where and by whom he might read the same thing long ago often obiected on the one side answered by the other which might haue bene in one sheet of paper very well dispatched Howbeit in the end calling to minde what your Lordship tolde me concerning the opinion that our poore seduced cuntrimen seeme secretly to haue amōgst thēselues of it as you learned by one of their owne speeches had thereof vnto your selfe in acquainting you first with the booke and marking how not onely by publishing it in english but also by entitling it both in the forhead ouer euery leafe a notable discourse against heresies they themselues haue plainely shewed that they haue it in no base account finding it also since to be the iudgement of a certaine learned man of auncient and long experience euen of our owne side now this last yeare published in print that the hauing of this very booke so long in secret amongst them vnanswered hath bene one great cause of the apostasy of so many yong mē as of late yeares in this our cuntry haue reuolted from the truth to popery at the last I resolued with my selfe though I know that whē I had done what I could herein that I should be foūd to haue said litle or nothing not said writtē aswel before by some one or other of our side that yet your Lordships request made vnto me to answere it as fully and directly as I coulde when you first shewed me the booke how you came by it was is such as that both of duty to your selfe particularly for sundry causes to the church of Christ generally for that by this means many may see togither an answere to that which otherwise in great part either they might chance neuer to hit of in any other wryter of ours or else be driuen to search more those further then it was likely they would or could I was bound to satisfy in as good sort as any way conueniently I could Hauing therefore encouradgement by these reasons to take it in hand hauing now by Gods grace finished it in maner as you see I present the same vnto your Honour as an vndoubted token of my dutifull affection towards you beseeching you not onely to take the paynes as your leasure serueth you to peruse it ouer your selfe but also desyring you to bee vnto it such a patrone as that it comming abroade thus by your prouocation it may haue your best protection and countenaunce to passe vp and downe openly and boldly both in the veiw of frendes and foes vnto it There was prefixed before Jhon de Albines book vvhich your honour deliuered me a long preface to the reader made as it should seeme by the publisher thereof in english and there was annexed vnto it in the later ende an offer of a catholicke as hee is there termed to a learned protestant consisting of two and twenty demaunds and six signes of false prophets heretiques and schismatiques the preface I haue aunswered and the answere thereunto I haue placed next vnto my aunswere vnto Albines booke it selfe somewhat also I haue annexed that answere of mine to his booke finished in the latter ende to shewe the vanitie and childishnesse of those things which the author hath vttered in the application of those six signes to vs but to that which hee hath written concerning those two and twenty demaunds I haue said nothing And indeed because otherwise the booke was growen farre greater then I imagined at the first it woulde I haue not at all inserted that offer nor anie part thereof The reason of my not medling at all with those two and twenty demaunds and not troubling this my booke at all with anie part of that offer is that Doctor Fulke long agoe hath aunswered those demaundes and that also nowe of late Master Crowley hath at large aunswered both them and that which is added concerning those signes Doctor Fulkes answere thereunto maie bee had vnder the title of an aunswere of a Christian protestant to the proude Chalenge of a popish Catholicke and it is prefixed commonly before his booke written in confutation of Allens of Purgatorie Indeede concerning the six signes hee saieth nothing not because of any greater matter in them then in the rest but because at the first they were not published with the other The demaunds though hee haue aunswered shortly according to his manner yet so sharpely and effectuallie hee hath doone it that if the Chalenger were a man of his worde hee continued not long after a popish Catholicke Master Crowleys aunswere to the whole offer worde for worde as it was annexed
they haue deceiued the simple people vvithall vnderstande welbeloued in the Lord vvhosoeuer thou art first for transubstantiation the very archpiller of their Synagoge that if they bee very busie to seeke out who first gaue inkling of such a matter they shall finde indeede the originall thereof not to come from Marke the Euangelist or anie of his fellowshippe but from one Marke a notable Magitian and filthie heretique of the broode of Valentinian that liued as it seemeth by the stories in the raigne of Antoninus Pius about one hundred and fifteene yeares after Christ For Epiphanius in his thirty foure heresie noteth and when hee hath done plentifully confirmeth it out of the first booke of Irenaeus and his ninth chapter against the heresies of ValeÌ„tiniaÌ„ others that this same heretique by his enchaÌ„tmeÌ„t hauiÌ„g first caused a cup of white wine to beare the colour of blood made his followers beleeue that by his inuocation over it it was so traÌ„substantiated into blood that seing that he had giveÌ„ thaÌ„ks ouer it long praied it might be thought of them that gratiaÌ„ quae est super vniuersa sanguinem suum instillâsse in illud poculum that is that grace that is aboue all things had poured his bloud into that cup by which meanes wheÌ„ he had made them in admiration of him desirous to drink thereof he giues it them with great deuotion solemnity of words so wonderfully bewitched many Indeed this fellow may very wel be allowed for the first auÌ„cient fouÌ„der of this point of doctrin for there being not any one point of popery wherein Antichrist hath more manifestly shewed him selfe coÌ„trary to Christ then in this as in truth there is not because for the establishing vse of this he is both spoiled of the true nature of a maÌ„ office of the only sufficieÌ„t priest of the new testament to offer himselfe once for all for the redemption of his church who can be fitter then this auncient enchauÌ„ter Marcus to be the first author and patrone hereof especially seing Irenaeus speaking of him in the eight chapter of the foresaid booke as it should seeme secretly directed by the spirit of prophesy saith thas he was verè praecursor Antichristi that is truely Antichrists fore-runner Yet how notably soeuer this Marcus caused many simple persons in his time to beleeue his transubstaÌ„tiation of wine into the bloud of Grace yet he was so baited detected confounded for his lewd and cosening dealing therein and in other points by Irenaeus Epiphanius and others that howsoeuer in the meane time Antichrist his successour was busie vnder Leo the 9. in a councell at Vercellis and after in the councell of Lateran vnder Nicholas the 2. about the yeare of the lord 1060. in bringing Berengarius to recantatioÌ„ to reuiue againe this doctrine of transubstantiation yet as their own friends confesse namely Tonstall in his booke of the sacrament of Christs body and bloud it could not nor was not decreed for a certaine and vniuersall doctrine before Innocent the thirds time in another councell at Lateran about the yeare of Christ 1215. before which couÌ„cel the Greeke Church had separated themselues from the Latine and therefore it being a point of Doctrine not receaued as Catholike before that diuision neuer since could it be receaued in the Greeke Church for any Catholike truth How can it then haue countenance of all Christian Regions and times Bertram Berengarius the Waldenses in sundry places by writing speaking opposed themselues against it as witnesseth Bertrams book of the sacrameÌ„t the condemnation of Berengarius opinion about it at Vercellis and the articles of the Waldenses Yea a little before and in this Pope Innocents time a certaine people about Iohn de Albines Tolossa called Albigenses and that in great mighty multitudes as the French Cronicles shew denied reall presence of Christ vnder or with the outward elements in this sacrament in somuch as great warres were raised to subdue them But of this matter also I haue spoken so much chapter eleuenth 17. that here I neede thereof say no more Now touching Images or Idols and the worshipping thereof I must needes confesse that for their dealing about them they may very well pretend both antiquity and vniuersality For it appeares in all stories and in the scriptures themselues that that way not onely all other nations but also euen the people of the Iewes themselues haue beene alwaies wonderfully giuen to pollute and defile themselues but withall it appeares that god in his word writteÌ„ against no abhominatioÌ„ hath cried out either more often or more vehemently then against this But amongst Christians the first that we reade of that worshipped the image of Iesus or any other was Marcellina a filthy companion of the phantasticall heretique Carpocrates but both in Epiphanius heresi 27. and in Augustine ad Quod vult deum we finde this both noted condemned amongst other detestable errours of the Carpocratians This Carpocrates liued in the beginning of the empire of Antoninus Pius Anicet then being Bishoppe of Rome about the yeare of the lord 109. And in Origens time who died as Spanhemensis saith in the yeare of Christ 261. hee in his seuenth book to Celsus noteth that then the Christians neither suffered images nor pillers to be worshipped Likewise in Arnobius aduersus gentes who florished about the 300. yeare after Christ it appeares that the geÌ„tils obiected that as a matter of disgrace against the ChristiaÌ„s that they neither had nor worshipped any such But so far of was it that the christiaÌ„s theÌ„ thought it any disgrace vnto theÌ„ that OrigeÌ„ in the place before quoted saith that the Iewes ChristiaÌ„s hearing the law Exo. 20. not only refuse images of god choosing rather to die then to make or worship any such adding this as a reasoÌ„ that god is inuisible without body And likewise Clemens Alexandrinus who florished 100. yeares before Origen in his exhortation to the heathen confesses willingly this their obiection to be true that Christians had no images that might be discerned by sence but onely by vnderstanding because to vse that deceitfull art saieth he was forbid theÌ„ Yea and that Christians and their teÌ„ples might continue still free froÌ„ them in Constantines time in a councel held in Spaine at Eliberis can 36. it was decreed thus It hath pleased vs to determine that no pictures should be suffered in churches least that which is worshipped or adored should be painted in walles Isid tom 1. coÌ„ci And therfore Epiphaniê° 55. yeares after this councell about the yeare of Christ 390. as it appeares in his Epistle to Iohn of IerusaleÌ„ finding in the entrance of the church at Anablatha in that Iohns dioces the image of a maÌ„ pictured on a cloth there haÌ„ging puld it downe tare it asuÌ„der writing to the foresaid Iohn about it though as he confessed it seemed vnto him that it was made for
oft in this your booke and the rest of your side continually beare the simple reader and vnlearned Christian in hand that before Luther there were none of our religion that haue so condemned your Church and religion as we doe I wil vouchsafe for the better inabling of euery one that shall read this my answere to see your vanity and impiety though this which I haue noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter Wherefore to go on in the course of times though your popish Church hath bene in her ruffe and at the heighest that euer she was this latter 400 yeares yet we are able to shew that there haue bene many euen in this time from time to time and that in sundry places that haue ioyned with vs against you that therefore there is no such newnesse or strangenes in our religion a d doings as you would make the ignorant beleeue For in the dayes of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church and other Easterne Churches did quite forsake communion with yours who euer since ioyne with vs in a number of thinges against you as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop as appeareth not onely by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote vnto the pope in the yeare 1237 but also by a large booke writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica wherein he doeth not onely confute his Supremacy euen as we doe but also he enueigheth against al those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church And as it appeareth in ancient record in the Church of Herford wherein 29 of the Articles wherein they differ from the Church of Rome are set downe they ioine not only with vs in this point in seperating thēselues frō the Romish Church in denying the popes supremacie which is the very foundation of your Church and religion but also in denying purgatory and masses for the dead in holding it lawfull for their ministers to enioy the benefit of matrimony in not vsing any priuate masse in not denying the cup to any that receaue in not ministring the communion in priuate houses in not vsing extreme vnction and in sundry other points And by diuers Epistles writen from thence of late extant in print both in greeke and latin to Chitreus and other Germans it euidently appeareth that they ioyne with vs against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religiō and that great hope there is that they might easily be brought to ioyne with vs in the rest Besides these Easterne churches euē here in these westerne parts euident it is that there haue beene many great learned and famous persons with innumerable followers at all tymes from age to age in these latter 400 yeares when the tyranny of your popes to represse them hath bene the greatest and strongest that euer it was which yet haue openly with vs stood forth against them and their religion For Fredericke the second as diuers other Emperours had beene before him as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his sonne and Constantine the 6 in the East and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West was a notable Antagonist of the 3 popes in his time contending against them to maintaine the authority of Christian princes against their vsurped Supremacy ouer them about the yeare 1260 as notoriously the Cronicles of those times writen by your owne men Platina Sabelicus and others declare And 20 years before that Krātzius testifieth in his history that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia that the Pope was an heretique his clergy Symoniakes and generally they all seducers of the people Ten yeares after that florished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ a Spaniard who taught that Sathā had thē seduced the world that the faith thē taught was but such as deuils had meaning belike a bare historicall faith that the pope led men to hell that he and his clergy did falsifie the doctrine of Christ that masses were naught not to be saied for the dead c. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretique Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore a master and chiefe ruler then in Paris who went as farre as Arnoldus applying the same Scriptures which concerne Antichrist as we doe to the pope and his clergy and therefore hee also was condemned for an heretique and his bookes burnt by your popish rout And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also tooke this Williams part against the pope wrote a booke in his defence In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohānes a Minorite directly preached the pope to be Antichrist and Rome great Babylon and therefore he was burnt after he was dead 30 yeares and more before this Robert Grosthead a famous learned man and Bishop of Lincolne for hee died in the yeare one thousand two hunderd fifty three was a great withstander of the popes tyranny and three dayes before his death hauing conference with his clergy he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations that the pope was Antichrist and his doings Antichristian King Philip of France about the yeare one thousand three hundred was a great withstander of the Supremacy which now the Pope challengeth and a resister in his dominions of sundry of his enormities and William Nagareta and the prelates of France then ioyned with their king against the pope Grosthead this king Philip and his clergy as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England in the yeare 1346 despised the popes curse appealed frō him to God There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty eight In the Extrauagants we reade that Marsillius Patauinus Iohannes de Ganduno Michael Chesenas Petrus de Carborea and Iohannes de Poliaco all great learned men were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy and other errours of that Church of his about the yeare 1326. There were thē also many learned mē more that disputed wrote against his Supremacy which took part with Ludouicke the Emperour against him as William Occam Luitpoldus Andreas Landanensis Vlricus Hangenor the Emperors treasurer and others Dante 's liuing in the yeare one thousand three hundred wrote against the Pope the orders of religious men and the Doctours of the Decrees saying that these were three great enemies to the trueth he flatly hath left in writing in his cāticle of Purgatory that the Pope of a pastor was become a woulfe that he was the whoar of Babylon In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminensis Andreas de Castro and Burdianus taught as we doe against your doctrine of freewill and merites Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine preached openly against your doctrine
of mans merites and praying to Saints c. And Franciscus Petrarcha florishing about that time in his ninteenth twentieth Epistle calleth the seate of the papacy the whoar of Babylon the temple of heresie and treachery and in such sort describeth it both at Rome and at Avinion where then the Pope sate that he as it ther seemeth coūted it the greatest euil that can befall a man to be made pope Iohannes de rupe scissâ about 10. yeares after in the yeare 1340 was so sore a rebuker of the abhominations of the cleargy that he was therefore imprisoned he also compared the pope to a bird richly clad with other birdes feathers yet so as that for the pride of that birde he prophecieth that the time would come when the other birdes would call for their feathers againe and so make him know himselfe Cōradus Hagar one of the city Herbipolis about this time preached 24 yeares as it appeareth in the Recordes of Otho bishop of that City that the masse was no propitiatory sacrifice either for the quicke or the dead And within three yeares after the booke called Paenitentiarius Asini was writen wherein the Pope is resembled to the Woulfe the Cleargy to the Foxe and the Laitie to the poore Asse In the yeare one thousand three hundred and fifty Gerrhardus Ridder wrote a book called Lachrima Ecclesiae wherein he vehemētly inueigheth against begging Friers Michael Chesenas before mentioned amongst other things preached that the pope was Antichrist and Rome Babylon Hee had many followers whereof I read some were burned as Iohannes de Castilone Franciscus de Arcatarâ and he himselfe beeing Prouincial of the Grey Friers was depriued and condemned in the yeare one thousād three hūdred twenty two or there abouts And in the time of Innocent the 6. 1353 I read that two Frāciscane Friers were burnt at Auinion whereof the one was one Iohn de Rochetalayda otherwise called Hayabolus witnes Premonstrat and Henry Herford Who as Henry of Herford writeth preached in the time of Pope Clement the 6 in the yeare 1345 that he was commanded by God to preach that Rome was Babylon and that the pope and his Cardinals were very Antichrist and beeing brought before the pope for it to his face he boldly did aduouch the same Brigit whom you your selues haue made a Saint about the yeare 1370 in her booke of Reuelations was a most bitter rebuker of the pope and his cleargy and so likewise was Katherina Senensis 2 yeares after as Antonine writeth in his 3 part of his story terming the pope a murderer of soules a spiller piller of the flocke of Christ saying that they were more abhominable thē Iewes more cruel thē Iudas more vniust thē Pilate worse then Lucifer himselfe And the former of thē plainly prophesied that their kingdō should be thrown downe as a milstōe into the deepe that the clergy had turned al Gods cōmandemēts into these two words Da pecuniā giue money Mathias Parisiēsis a Bohemiā about the year 1370 wrot a large book of Antichrist prouing him to be come that the pope was he the Locusts in the Apocalyps he saith are his hypocritical clergy About this very time Greg. the 11 sent a bul to the Arch-Bishop of Prage stirring him vp thereby to persecute one Melitzius and his followers who is charged in that bull to haue preached that the Pope was Antichrist and to haue had congregations following him As Brushius writeth in the yeare 1390. there were burned at Bringa 36. citizens of Moguntia for the doctrine of the Waldēses holding also that the Pope was Antichrists and Massens recordeth that there were burnt about the same time 140. for the same cause in the prouince of Narbon and the same authour testifieth that in the yeare 1210. 24 suffered at Paris and that the next yeare there were 400. burned for the like cause 80. beheaded Prince Armericus hanged and the Lady of the castle stoned to death Houeden also noteth that about these times there were great numbers put to death in France for this cause of Religion Trithemius writeth that Ecchardus a dominicke Frier was put to death at Hiddelberge in the yeare 1330 for withstanding the Popish doctrine There is an olde monument of processe against 44◠persons for the same cause in Pomerania Marchia and places there about in the yeare 1391. And certaine it is that if the recordes and statutes of all countries in these westerne partes should bee searched euen thereby would it appeare that the number of those that haue gainesaied the Pope his proceedings in the time of his greatest florishing and cruelty ' haue beene from time to time infinite how much greater then is it likely was the number of them that informer times when hee was not growen to that power to vexe the seruants of god as he hath beene for these last 300. or 400. yeares haue professed the trueth boldely against him Thus are we come to Iohn Wicklifes time who florished here in England about the yeare of the Lord 1372 and yet I haue for the auoiding of too too much tediousnes omitted the names of a number of famous men that haue also withstoode poperie and ioyned with vs in sundrypointes against them in those times that I haue run thorow as namely Alcuinus Archbishop of Canterburie directly with vs against them in the matter of reall presence Aelfricus Ioachim Abbot of Calabria Arnoldus Brixianus Almericus a learned Bishop in Innocents time the third iudged a◠heretique for teaching as we doe against images Beringaiius Reymundus Earle of Tolossa Lord Peter de Cogneriis Eudo Duke of Burgandie the Archbishop of Armah and infinite others I might also here againe haue remembred that with H. Mutius writeth of an 100 burnt in one day in Alsatia vnder Innocent the 3 in the yeare 1215 when Antichrist in the Lateran councell bringing in the new and monstrous article of Transubstantiation shewed himselfe to be euen growen to his highest degree of iniquity But to let these passe and to proceede Iohn Wicklife as it is famously knowen was with vs against you in the most and weightiest things betwixt you and vs in controuersie and therefore in your councell of Constance you condemned him and caused his dry and rotten bones to be taken vp againe and burned Whiles he liued he had many great learned men here in England that ioyned with him as namely Nicholas Herford Philip Repington Iohn Ashton and Laurence Redeman and so many followers had he and they and hee had such fauour and protection especially of the Duke of Lancaster that then was that though your prelates here in England vexed and molested them what they could yet they and their fauourers in short tyme grew to that strength and multitude that by the yeare 1422 Henry Chicheley then Archbishop of Canterbury certified the pope that they all could not be suppressed they were so many but by force of warre
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
let these thinges passe and to proceede to the scanning and examining of that which you haue set downe in this Chapter you beginne with an arrogant and false bragge that all ancient doctours Greeke and Latin since the Apostles times and all the ChristiaÌ„s of the foure quarters of the world that were in those daies made their promises and vowes c. as you doe now You are wonderfull generall Master Albine and your words are very confident and swelling shal we thinke that you are a maÌ„ of that learning and reading that you speake all this vpon your owne knowledge why then hauing such a cloud of witnesses such an army royall alleage you so few of them nine or ten be the most whose names you haue brought vs in al this Chapter and these you haue brought forth vpon the stage dumbe or tongue-tied if we wil here them speake we must take the paines to attend vpon them by your direction at an other time and surely in other places then you haue pointed vs we must heare a good sort of these speake for you or else we shal neuer finde them willing to yeelde either you or your cause any one word good or bad As for vowes and promises which you make to God vnlesse thereby you meane onely such vowes and promises as both you and we make in our baptisme to renounce the Diuell and al his works c. for then you haue not so much as named vs one father Greeke or Latin nor yet any one Christian of any of the foure quarters of the world you speake of And indeede you haue amongst you such rash foolish vndiscreete and superstitious vowes and promises a number for the which you could not nor cannot truely alleadge any ancient and holy father or Christian indeede thereinto giue you any countenance Such bee you vow of single and chast life vniuersally amongst you tyed to holy orders your vowes and promises to God some of you alwaies some for a time to absteine with opinion of holines and merit from flesh and whitmeate your vowes of pilgrimage to coÌ„mit idolatry at this Saints shrine picture or at that and a number of like stampe of which kinde of vows promises if you meane I say first your glory in theÌ„ is your shame for these are but plaine wil worships condemned by Christ Mat. 15. and by Paul Coloss 2. the very bronds marks of such as according to S. Pauls prophesie in the later daies should depart froÌ„ the faith giue heede vnto spirits of errour and doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4. And further I say such vowes were better neuer made theÌ„ made being made they are of the nature dangerous consequence that the best way were first to repent of the folly and rashnes in making of them then rather quite to giue them ouer theÌ„ with such superstition and impiety to seeke to keepe them as is vsed breaks forth thereby shamefully amongst you For it is plentifully proued both out of scriptures and out of Ambrose in the second canon of the eighth couÌ„cel of Toledo that oathes that caÌ„not be performed without sinne are vnlawfull not to binde And you cannot be ignorant that Gratian causa 22 quest 4 produceth many testimonies out of the fathers to the same end and the namely out of Isidor there he hath noted set downe this for a good rule in such cases as these of yours be In malis promissis rescinde fidem in turpi voto muta decretuÌ„ quod incautè vouisti ne facias impia est promissio quae scelere adimpletur that is in euill promisses performe theÌ„ not in a filthie vow change thy purpose the which rashly thou hast vowed doe not it is an vngodly promise which is fulfilled with sin And rather then men that haue vowed promised a single life through the force of inward coÌ„cupiscence should burne and fal either to fornicatioÌ„ adultery or any other vncleannes or filthines of the flesh with were as heaueÌ„ earth all the world knowes coÌ„moÌ„ fruits of your priestly vow of single life the ancieÌ„t Doctours that you brag of here so much would haue theÌ„ to marry and to repent of their rash vow as it is euident in Cyril in his third 16. bookes vpon Leuiticus in Cyprian li. 1. Epist 11. in Epiphanius himselfe coÌ„tra apostolicos l. 2. and in August de bono coniugali de sanctâ virginitate cap. 34. But by the vowes and promises that you speake of seeing you cite no fathers for any other I will take it that you meant onelie those that you vse to make to God in Baptisme Now theÌ„ yet therein vnderstand you striue without an aduersary For we in our baptisme doe as solemnly make those vowes and promises to God to renounce the Deuill the world the flesh wtall their fruits to beleeue in God and serue him all the daies of our life as euer any of you did or doe But you say further that al these holy Doctours ChristiaÌ„s you spake of at their baptisme did vse those very ceremonies that you doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings which you doe vse in your Catholique church which we call papisticall for the proofe of the trueth whereof you name vs certaine places out of Tertullian Cyprian Origen Chrysostome Augustine Basil and Arnobius what are these all the ancient doctours and Christians since the Apostles time that you speake of Though it were graunted you that these seuen in these places were for your ceremonies which you vse in baptisme yet this were farre from all that you spake of before Thus to beginne withall euery bodie may see that you are a far mightyer man in bragging theÌ„ you dare so mâ—â—h as to make shew you are in prouing all you say But to passe by this fault herein you haue committed a second fault worse then this first For whereas you alleadge these fathers here to couÌ„tenance your whole pompe of ceremonies now vsed by you in Baptisme there is not you know well enough or else you are not so cuÌ„ning in these places as you would haue men thinke you are the halfe of your ceremonies fashions so much as barely mentioned by them in these places Exorcisme abrenuntiation crossing thrise dipping and anointing are all that I can finde any of these in any of these places to haue mentioned but that they vsed the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and anointings that you now vse as you say I finde not Your Chrisme that you anoint withall must haue as you hold balsom in it and in them I finde onely mention of oyle and none of any balsom your formes of exorcising and adiuring set downe in your seruice bookes are not found in any of these places nay it is well enough knowen they are of younger yeares by a faire deale But what are these few ceremonies the names whereof and vse whereof in some sort they had
ascended vp into heauen and sitteth on the right hande of his father Wherevnto I aunswere that we must heare his voice sounding by the mouth of his e True but there by straight is not ment yours which along time hath beene an impudent harlot Church which is the very true spouse of Iesus Christ QuaÌ„ sanctificauit mundans eam lauacro aquae in verbo vitae whom hee hath sanctified and purified with the bath of water in the worde of life vt exhiberet ipse sibi gloriosam ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugam to make it a glorious Church to himselfe without spot or wrinkle Ad Ephesios 5. f Thus you take for granted that your synagogue is this church of of Christ and that we haue departed from the church of Christ both which are most false If we hear the church we hear Christ for as the holy Bishop Martyr Irenaeus writeth in the forty Chapter of his thirde booke Vbi ecclesia ibi spiritus vbi spiritus dei illic ecclesia omnis gratia spiritus autem veritas where the Church is there is the spirit of God where the spirit of God is there is the Church al grace the spirit is truth Wherefore as the same godly father writeth in the forty and three Chapter of his fourth booke we be bounde to be obedient to the Prelates of the Church his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis to them that haue their succession from the Apostles Reliquos verò saieth hee qui absistunt a g This principall succession is succession in truth which you are gone from long agoe principali successione quocunue loco colliguntur suspectos habere quasi haereticos oportet As for all other that goe away from the g Which is in truth that which your synagogue long ago hath done principall succession wee ought to suspect them as heretickes These are Irenaeus wordes in the place nowe alleadged And Christ saieth himselfe Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee Wherefore if wee will heare Christ as his father hath commaunded vs Ipsum audite Heare him Matth. 17. then must wee heare the Church h These things are true of the true and pure church of Christ listening to and following the voice of her husband and not otherwise and therefore not of your synagogue The Church is our most holy Mother whom we ought to haue in great reuerence and to commit our selues wholly vnto her to heare her and like obedient children to doe what she biddeth vs. What the Church holdeth in matters of religion that must we holde what the Church prescribeth it is our duetie to followe what the Church forbiddeth that are we bound vnder paine of damnation to auoyde in any wise a Therefore is it that we dare not beleeue your Romish spirit because we trying it by the scriptures finde it contrary to the spirit that was author of them S. Iohn in the fourth Chapter of his first Epistle biddeth vs beware that wee beleeue not euery spirite but to trye the spirites whether they be of God or not Then how can they be of God which goe from the Church S. Augustine in the exposition of this Epistle of S. Iohn tractatu primo writeth thus b This you haue done therefore by his rule howe can you be in Christ Qui ecclesiam relinquit quomodo est in Christo qui in membris Christi non est Quomodo est in Christo qui in corpore Christi non est Hee that leaueth the Church hovv is hee in Christ that is not in the members of Christ how is he in Christ that is not in the body of Christ By the which S. Augustine affirmeth that the Church which is the spouse of Christ is also the misticall body of Christ Christ is the heade of the Church As many therefore as be Christ his sheepe they heare their shepheards voice in the Church They wil not heare the voice of strangers c You should haue exemplified in your owne doctors and theÌ„ had you said well as of Luther Oecolampadius Zuinglius Caluin and like heretikes which for all their gay wordes and crying still Christ and the Ghospel may haue euery one of theÌ„ these verses of Persius in his fift Satyre worthily spoken to him Pelliculam veterem retines fronte politus AstutaÌ„ vapido seruas sub pectore vulpem Thou keepest still thine olde hyde vppon thee and bearing a faire face thou wrappest a wyly foxe vnder thy vaporous brest d euen your popes and doctors for these many yeares Act. 20. These bee they of whome Saint Peter speaketh in the seconde Chapter of his seconde Epistle Magistri mendaces qui introducunt sectas perditionis Lying masters bringing in sectes of perdition and denying the God that bought them Howebeit since it is so as Paul sayeth There wil be alwaies rauening wolues non parcentes gregi not sparing the flocke And amoÌ„g our owne selues wil men arise speaking peruerse things And such is our fraile nature that as the wittie Horace sayeth e And therefore the Romish struÌ„pet holdes out her poyson in a golden Cup. Reu. 17. Decipimur specie recti We be soone deceiued vnder the colour of truth It behoueth vs to followâ— the counsel of our head principal master Iesus Christ which teacheth vs an excellent document of heauenly philosophy saying f And therefore we had neede to take heede of you Attendite vobis à falsis Prophetis take ye heede to your selues beware of false Prophets which come vnto you in vestimentis ouium in sheepes cloathing but inwardlie they are Lupi rapaces Rauening wolues We must I saie beware that we be not deluded and vnder colour of Euangelical varitie bee made to receaue pernitious and damnable heresies as alas the more pittie hath miserably chaunced to our noble Realme of g This is true of EnglaÌ„d in respect of Qu. Maries daies and so theÌ„ truly we might did say vnto you as you here now falsly say vnto vs. Englande vnder colour of bringing vs to truth leading vs await from the truth to the vtter decay of all godlines setting vp of counterâ—aite religion a Euen this is the state of your Church in deed The weede hath nowe overgrowen the corne euill hurtâ—ull and soulequelling weedes of heresie haue ouergrowen oppressed pulâ—d downe to the grounde and vtterly choked the good corne of christian â—eligion and all ecclesiasticall constitutions b Thus we say that iustly to our people in respect of you Al you therefore that haue â—een seduced and taken weeds for wholsome flowers beware least with the â—ench of such rotten weedes yee infect your soule to euerlasting damnatiâ—n The infallible truth is dayly opened vnto you c It doth not at all appeare by the discourse that there is any falshood at all in our Religion The falshoode is mightily
and due confirmation of the other But I cannot be perswaded that such was your owne simplicity as once to imagine that the fift of Mathew Ephes 4 Esaie 62. or any other proofe that you vse to that ende did serue at all to proue your entraunce to haue bene as you saied I am therefore flat of this minde and so must euery man of any wit and discretion be vnlesse you will giue vs leaue to thinke that you had neither of both in thus reasoning that this was your Romish and Popish cunning herein finding your selfe vnable to proue any of these foure points that your entrance is by the ordinary waie that your Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests that you haue had from the Apostles right succession and that also now and alwaies you haue beene in possession of the Catholick trueth you thought it good confidently as though their were no controuersie to be made with you about any of these to aduouch that you had all these to iustifie your maner of comming to your offices And so perswading your selfe that you should meete with such franke and liberall Readers as would easily vpon this your bolde begging graunt you all these foure for an almes taking them for giueÌ„ as sure as though you had them already in your beggers budget euen for and at the very first asking you goe on as you doe supposing that your Reader is already wonne to this to imagine that all and euery place of scripture that speakes of right Bishops and pastours and of their lawful calling succeeding one another froÌ„ age to age in the trueth must needes be vnderstoode of yours But with this conceit phantesy of yours howsoeuer you may preuaile with men of your owne humour and complexion that haue their wits benummed bluÌ„dered with the drunken enchaunted cup of the garish whoar of Babylon whiles you take this course you set your selfe but forth vpon a scaffolde to bee laught at and derided as one that hath neither sounde Religion nor common reason left him of those that are indeede wise sober and godly Seeing therefore you haue saied so much and proued so little well enough might I euen with the detection in this sort of your vanity leaue you as sufficiently answered for any thing you haue saied concerning this point But because I haue not taken in â—and onely so to answere you as might be sufficient to take awaie â—â—e power and force from any thing you haue set downe in this â—our discourse to winne any more to bee of your iudgement then â—ee alreadie but also so as by the grace of God may bee likely to â—ake your owne frendes ashamed of your dealing in their cause 〈◊〉 will both in this throughout your booke for the further beneâ—it of the Reader take the paines to follow you froÌ„ steppe to steppe â—how crooked soeuer your pathes be so disclose lay open before â—im not onely the vanity of your proceeding but also the vntrueth â—nd grosse impietie of your words and sayings Wherefore whereas to iustify your maner of comming by your â—ffices you first saie you come thereunto by the ordinarie way the Reader is to consider that through the ambiguttie of your speech you seeke wilfullie to abuse him For you could not bee so simple but you knewe and remembred well enough that as there is a lawfull ordinarie waie ordeined and allowed by God and therefore accordinglie practised in his Church whereby his Church officers should enter into their callings whereby if you could haue proued yours to haue come to theirs you had indeede iustifyed their entrance thereupon so haue there beene in tract of time through the boldnes of men to alter Gods ordinance and therein to preferre the way deuised by themselues before that which the Lord himselfe had prescribed many waies both inuented and practised which though they haue by custome and long continuance of time growen to be too ordinarie yet for all that they haue beene and yet are too bad by anie of which though in respect of one or other of them you maie truelie saie yours haue entred by the ordinarie waie yet you haue saied nothing to proue their maner of entraÌ„ce to be holie good and of God But to speake plainelie and yet no more then I can proue out of your owne Cronicles your verie Bishops of Rome of whose lawfull and ordinarie calling you vse to brag most and of whose lawfull entrance and calling if they bee such heades of the Church as you pretend the lawfull calling and authoritie of all other inferiour Church officers is deriued and depends for manie hundreth yeares a number of them haue so got to their Prelacies that vnlesse you account those in your sence to haue come to their places by the ordinarie waie that in compassing of them haue broken all good order both of God and man I wonder with what face you durst thus indefinitely generally say of all your Bishops and pastours that they haue bene called to their estate by the ordinary way For furious braules monstrous and long contentious force of armes and cruell bloudshed haue beene the ordinary waies whereby a great multitude of them haue entered as namely and for exaÌ„ple these Symachus Boniface the second Pelagius the first Boniface the third ConoÌ„ Sergius the first Zozimus Paul the first Constantine the second Eugenius the first Hadrian the second Formosus Leo Benedict Gelasius the second Honorius the second Innocent the second Gregorie the tenth Nicholas the third Clement the fifth Vrban the sixth and sundry others Bribery also hath beene the ordinary way whereby many of them haue clymed into that chaire as namely Iohn 13. Boniface the 7. Gregory the sixth Siluester the third and most of late daies NicromaÌ„cy art magicke and plaine barganing with the deuill for it haue beene ordinary waies also whereby a shamefull sort of them haue compasseâ— that place For from Syluester the second vnto Gregory the seuenth including them there being an eighteene or nineteene Popes your owne Cardinal Benno shewes that the greater number of theÌ„ so came to their roomes and since wee reade that Alexander the sixth got it the same way It appeares also in the saied Benno that the greater nuÌ„ber of the Popes from Syluester the second to Gregory the seuenth were poisoned or at least by violent means dispatched by such as for theÌ„selues their frends thought good so to make the waie readier thereuÌ„to for themselues or some others whom they fancied And to the same ende other authours write that very many of them beside haue in like maner from time to time since beene sodenly vnpoped that others the sooner might bee popt into their roomes Yea Genebrard a late writer and a great frend to the Roman Religion and Bishops in his fourth booke and tenth age in his Cronology by the plaine euideÌ„ce of the truth is inforced to confesse that from the yeare 884. to the yeare
And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
since Augustine the monkes comming into England as I haue saied and for 300 yeares after him your glorious succession must faile there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least betwixt the opinions that your pastors and doctors hold now and them that were held then Take heede therefore whiles you measure thus to vs and so seeke to disgrace them whose names we cite that the same be not measured to you againe so the necke of your visible Succession be broken to the perill of the life of your Church which draweth her breath thereby Now to come to your disgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius and your laying to our charge all the heresies that haue sprung vp since Luther began first to preach against you therein do you vs manifold wrong For who knoweth not that it is no strange or new thing to finde the deare seruants of God and the true members of Christs Church sometimes and in some things differing and hoatly dissenting in opinion Doe we not read Mat. 16. that one thing seemed good to Peter and the contrary seemed and was indeed good in Christs iudgement Did not Peter take one course and Paul another at Antioch Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharpely And finde we not Act. 15. Paul and Barnabas growen to that heat of contention about the receiuing againe or refusing of Iohn Marke that they parted companies And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times and view the state of the Church euen in the purest times thereof we shall finde it no strange thing to see diuersities of opinions and therefore also hoat contentions betwixt those whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church Betwixt Polycrates Victor the East and West Churches Irenaeus and certaine other Bishops of France and some Popes the contention about the obseruation of Easter was such Euse 5.21.22.23.24 that one side excommunicated another that diuers Synods were held to appease it and yet it cōtinued 300 yeares more And who knoweth not that there was contention betwixt Cypriā other Bishops of Africke Cornelius Stephanus Bishops of Rome for that they euē thē at Rome encroched too much as the other thought to intermeddle within the iurisdictiōs of the Bishops of Africke in receiuing condēned excōmunicated fugitiues that ran to Rome frō thence Neither was the controuersie small betwixt them about the rebaptizing of those that had beene before onely baptized by heretiques For proofe of both which points I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first booke of Epistles and to the first Epistle of his second booke and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seuēth booke Basil also and the Church of Caesarea as it is well knowen were at hoat contention about Ecclesiasticall songes and ceremonies Theophilus of Alexandria and Chrysostome of Constantinople had betweene them a violent and troublesome contention and great part taking there was of both sides and that along time Cyrillus of Alexandria wrote against Theodoret in a controuersie of Catholicke religion Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Aegypt and one Peter of Alexandria and their followers of both sides there arose and continued a long whyle to the great trouble of the Church a lamentable contention All Ecclesiasticall stories for the most part haue with griefe made report of these yea downe from Christ to the age wherein euery one of them wrote it too plainly appeares in them that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares but it hath had new contentions and those many not onely betwixt heretiques and catholickes but also euen amongst those that otherwise of both sides were to bee reputed sounde Christians Hierom and Augustine as all men will confesse were in their times worthy so to be accounted and yet it appeareth in their works that there was great diuersity of opinions and that in many things of great moment betwixt them Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome of whom I spake before were both famous Christians and yet the stories of their tymes shew that they were bitter enemies It is notoriously knowen that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the councell of Nice Constantine by the bookes offered vnto him one against an other found that they then had amongst themselues many contentions and varieties of opinions and infinite it were to reckon vp all the examples that might easily be found to this end Indeede I reade for these and such like differences the Iewes and Heathen people mocked at the Christians and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion seuenth Stromat Clement Alexandrini But I neuer read that either then or since euer any sounde Christian though for this cause they tooke occasion to mourne yet that they or any of them tooke occasion to condemne either the one side or the other or both as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ For notwithstanding these differences they saw that they ioyned togither otherwise as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes And that they whom you call Lutherans Zuinglians doe so the booke of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches that hereabouts professe the Gospell doeth make it most manifest and euident And therfore for any force that this reason carieth with it this their differēce which is in effect only about the maner of the presēce of Christ in the Sacramēt they both may be mēbers of the true anciēt Catholick Church as wel as these other whō I haue named Another wronge that herein they offer vs is this that beeing themselues at variance amongst themselues and hauing had many and great contentions and yet hauing still some about as great a matter of religion as this that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies like hypocrites they are so busie with the moate in ours For who so readeth the histories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes besides a number of hoat and contentious schismes troubling all Christendome for many yeares togither yea sometimes fourty years continuing betwixt their Popes Antipopes he shall finde it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope to contrary the proceedings of his predecessour as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that and therefore poore Gratian tooke a combersome worke in hand to make a concorde of such discording Canons Their religion considered it is one of the greatest controuersies that can be whither the pope or a generall councell haue the superiour authority and so must be the carier of the Churches tongue to decide and determine controuersies and yet euen in this controuersie they are so at concorde that the councell of Constance and Basil determined one way and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way and yet both sides hath his stout champions The Scotistes and Thomistes many an
according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
of those words Except yee eat the flesh of the son of mā c. killeth therefore he teacheth vs there spiritually to vnderstand them Who vpon these wordes of Christ gathereth that no wicked man can eate the flesh of christ vpon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part he granteth the wicked may eat that when it hath beene eatē in the end it is auoided into the place of easement Hom 15. vpon Mat. Athanasius noteth the christ made mention of his ascension Iohn 6. to wtdraw thē from corporall fleshly vnderstāding of his words vpon these words whosoeuer speaketh a word against the son c. But Chrys goeth plainly to work saith in his 11. Hom vpon Mat. that the very body of christ himselfe is not in the holy vessels but the mistery sacrament thereof is therin conteined And therefore in his 46. Hom. vpon Iohn sheweth vs the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing Iohn 6. therby warned vs to take heede of carnall and fleshly vnderstanding of his words which is to vnderstand them saieth he simply and in his 4. Homil vpon the 4. to the Corinth he telleth vs that the body of Christ is the carion where the Eagles will bee he nameth eagles saieth he to shew that who so will approch to his body must mount aloft haue no dealing with the earth nor be drawē downward but must euermore fly vp c. For this is a table of Eagles saieth he that fly on high not of Iaies that creepe beneath Christ tooke bread which cōforteth mās hart that he might represēt therby his body bloud saith Hier. vpō the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism receued the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacramēt drīk the similitude of christs bloud saieth Ambrose in his 4 booke 4 c. of the sacraments Ciprian de vnctione chrismatis writeth thus Christ in his last supper gaue vnto his Apostles bread wine which he called his body bloud but on the Crosse hee gaue his very body to be wounded with the hands of the souldiers that the Apostles might declare vnto the world how in what maner the bread may be the flesh bloud of Christ And the maner straight way he declareth thus that those things which do signifie those things which be signified by thē may be both called by one name Fulgētius in his booke to King Thrasimund hath these words This cup or chalice is the new Testamēt that is to say doth signifie the new Testament Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainely writeth that Christ honoured the signes and representatiōs which are seene with the name of his body and bloud not changing their natures but adding grace to nature and yet more plainely in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus the mystical signes after sanctification go not from their nature for they tary in their former substance figure and forme Yea euen Gelasius a Pope about the yeare 500. against Eutiches is as plaine saying in the Eucharist the substāce and nature of bread and wine cease not For the image and similitude of the body and bloud is celebrated in those mysteries And Bertram in his treatise of this matter writen in the time of Carolus Caluus laboureth by many proofes testimonies to shew that bread and wine remaine still and that we are here to followe Christ in a figure and mistery And Bede vpon Luke 22. saith because bread doeth comfort mans heart and wine doeth make good bloud in his body therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christs body and the wine to Christs bloud The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. booke De sermonum proprietate Emissenus de consecrat Dist 2. cap. Quia corpus compareth the conuersion in the Sacrament to the conuersion in a man regenerated which we all know is in quality and not in substance There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds time about the yeare of the Lord 996 being then as some write Bishop of Canterbury wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and bloud of Christ then manna and the water of the rocke was Christ who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies and in that which was to be read on Easter day there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation and your reall presence And since these times you know well inough wee haue had many from time to time yea mo thē you well like of that haue beene as flat and direct against your kinde of reall presence as we are now This Master Foxes booke of Actes and Monuments hath made euident to all the world And it is famously knowen that before your Lateran Councel vnder Innocent the 3. in the yeare 1215. it was not decreed to bee as you now hold It appeareth also by the last session of the councell of Florence which is not much aboue 140. yeares ago that the Greeke Church vntill then stoode against your doctrine of transubstantiation which is the ground of your reall presence And Tonstall though otherwise a great man on your side yet in his booke of this sacrament saieth perhaps it had beene better to leaue euery man that would be curious concerning this matter of the maner how Christ is present to his owne coniecture as by his confession before the councel of Lateran it was left at libertie And Iohn Duns a frend of yours vpon the 4. booke of the sentences saieth that the wordes might haue beene expounded more plainely then by Transubstantiation if it had pleased the Church Gabriel Biell another great doctour vpon the canon of the masse in his 40. reading plainely confesseth that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible how the body of Christ is there whither by Trāsubstantiatiō or Consubstantiation Euen so your great Bishop Iohn Fisher writing against Luthers booke of the captiuity of Babylō is enforced to confesse that he findeth not in Mathew nor any where els in the scripture any thing to proue that there is thereby the reall presence of Christ in your masse nor that whensoeuer a Priest shall go about that matter hee maketh the bread wine the body and bloud of Christ and so concludeth that he thinketh that euery man vnderstandeth that the certaintie of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospell as it doeth vpon the vse tradition and custome of the Church These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literall exposition of Christs words your new deuise of transubstantiation the onely piller and buttresse of your real presence and against your grosse and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouthes of all receiuers good and bad they may not bee denied to bee forcible against your reall presence For the cause thereof denied and taken away the effect must cease and if the
not be against himselfe Ma. 12. what were they to do els but according to that the God gaue theÌ„ and the places they had in vniuersities in the church to proceede to call the people yet froÌ„ those errors to the truth When fire shal take hold of a city or the enimy scale the wal in the night if the least burgesse shall giue an alaruÌ„ yea if it be but a straÌ„ger the watchmaÌ„ sleeping that should giue warning no maÌ„ would staÌ„d trifling in demanding by what title he did it but streight he will run to the water and to the wals and laie to his hands to preueÌ„t the mischiefe thanke him that gaue the warning And yet wheÌ„ the meÌ„ we speake of giue notice of a greater danger though it be as necessary to listen vnto them to be warned by them as the saluation of mens soules is yet they caÌ„not finde this wisdome and thankfulnes in men It should seeme by your standing thus precisely vpon the necessity of visible succession ordinary impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds in theÌ„ the god shal send to teach men or els they may not be heard that either you haue not red or els that you greatly disseÌ„ble your knowlege that God hath vsed the ministry of diuers persoÌ„s that haue wanted those to coÌ„uert nations to lay the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of churches to doe very much good For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hist 1. booke and c. 10. Theodoret in his 1. book c. 23. report that a captiue maiden did first kindle the light of the Gospell amongst the IberiaÌ„s who being the meanes first to coÌ„uert the Queene the Queene coÌ„uerted the King he wtout any orders as you call them taught his people the Christian faith so begaÌ„ the church there It is also writeÌ„ by Ruff. lib. 1â— c. 9. by Theodoret in the 22. c. of his saied booke by Nicep in his 8. book c. 35 that AEdesius and Frumentius brought thither being â—â—yes by Meropius a philosoper and there taken and preserued aliue when he and the rest of his company were slain growing after into good credit and authority there were the first means of the sowing of the seede of the Gospell amongst the Barbarians in the further India to the profession and exercises whereof especially Frumentius and that not onely after that by Athanasius he was ordained there bishop but before euer by any he was ordeined either minister or bishop was a notable effectuall meanes both to excite marchantes that came thither and to drawe the people of that countrey it selfe Moreouer Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history reporteth in his sixte booke and 19. Chapter that Origen taught publikely before he had ordination certaine bishops being present which when Demetrius Alexandrinus obiected as a fault to Alexander bishop of Hierusalem and to Theoclistus bishop of Caesarea they defended themselues by alleadging diuers such famous examples as namely of Euelpis Paulinus and Theodorus which in like sort had preached without the ordinary ordination Yea read Nicephorus 2 booke and 25. Chapter and he will tell you that vnder Constantius Antonie the heremite taught at Alexandria and that vnder Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flauianus Iulianus being then but monkes who in those dayes were not reckoned amongst Clarkes at all for vnto Gregories time they were not accounted Clarkes did publickely preach and confute heretiques And yet these examples I alleadge not that I would be authour to anie when an ordinarie calling may be had to despise that and to take vpon them that function of the Ministrie without that lawfull ordinary calling for that were to disturbe the peace of the Church and to open a gap to much disorder and inconuenience but to this end to make it appear that the Church of God in former ancient times hath not so precisely and curiously stood vpon these points of visible succession and ordination for the iustifying of ones preaching the Gospel at al times and in all places as you doe For doubtles there haue beene times and yet may be as after that great apostasie spoken of 2. Thes 2. in other great ruines of the Church when it hath and may please the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this worke without either immediate locall or personall succession going before who as long as they preach but the trueth and otherwise the times be so corrupt that of them that haue authority ordinarily to call men to that busines such rather should be shut out generally then let into the ministrie are to be receiued heard and listened vnto as such whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himselfe The XIIII Chapter CAluin doeth alleadge to vs that the Apostles doe saie that no bodie ought to take vpon him the honour of the high priesthoode except he be called to it as Aaron was meaning by that to conclude that of our owne authority we haue vsurped the dignitie of Priesthood a And â—et to no purpose We haue answered him at large of our vocation by the succession of Pastours ioined with the imposition of handes I doe demande of him or of his if they can make any true answere to the like obiection You doe laie to our charge the all liues of our Popes and Bishops and the naughtinesse that you pretend to finde in our Preachers but all those inuectiues serue to no other purpose but to shew how you keepe b Nay you shall haue the bell both for that for prophane iering scoffing a learned schoole of railing the which preheminence we doe yeeld to you without any debate or processe for ye maie attribute that vnto your selues as your owne by right insteede of the imposition of hands which ye want But in one thing to my iudgment you are greatlie ouerseene and that is this c When you obserue this lawe your selues we wil learn of you Why doe ye not fill both sides of your booke in the one you set forth at large without omitting anie point of their ill doings al the naughtie lives of our Pastours and Bishops but the other sides of the leaues are emptie you should haue writen on them the holie liues of your Ministers succeeding one after an other this thousand and fiue hundred yeares When the Popes Bonifacius Gregorius did gouerne ill their Seats at Rome d I haue sufficiently answered this cap. 4. which were the good and holie ministers that did their duetie at Geneua When our Doctours did preach against God in times past in what part or vnder what sign were your Ministers lodged that did then preach the pure word of the Lord e Reasoned like your selues as though the Apostles neuer lawfully hid themselues from the fury of the persecuters if they did hide themselues they did not folow the pure word of the Lord the which you say is necessarie to know the true faithful beleeuers For Christ doeth saie Mat. 10. that hee that shal deny him before men him
wil he deny before his father in heauē And S. Paul doth saie Ro. 10. f And so haue ours all wayes in due time and place though to the losse of thousands of their liues done that with the hart one doth beleeue to iustice with the mouth one must cōfes to saluatiō g This is but your cuckowes song conteining neither trueth nor honesty But to saie the truth your religiō was not thē foūd out the Grādfathers great Grandfathers of Caluin had neuer dreāpt of the heresies that now their reformed childe hath set so newly abroach And therefore thinke it not strange if that those people that are not light headed send you to preach in new found landes as one that hath here at home giuen manifestlie iudgement against himselfe h Are you not ashamed to ly so impudently and to reason so foolishly confessing as wee haue alleadged aboue that the Church of God hath vsed the imposition of hands yours hath not done so and therefore it doeth follow that it is not of God that that doeth follow consequentlie is that it is of the deuil For we know that you allow i Neither would you but that your belly is your God and that you mind earthly things vnto which purposes that doctrine serueth you fitly no purgatorie I mean no meane betwene thē both The XIIII Chapter HOw you haue answered Caluin and proued your vocation to be of God by that which now the reader hath heard both parts say let him iudge Our answere to the like demande I haue giuē you Chap. 9. when you first called for it But hauing demanded this now againe of vs insteed of pursuing your demād as one that had streight forgotten what you saied you are in hand againe with our saying to your charge your popes bishops il liues with twise or thrise you were in hād wtal before where you haue your ful answer Herein you say in railing you giue vs the preeminēce but you do so but in words for indeed trueth as al your late books fraught with nothing more then this kinde of Rhetoricke to bring the seruants of God vniustly into hatred doe proue none cā go beyond you herein And as for that which we say of your Popes bishops your own storie-writers and manifest experience doe iustifie to be true therfore cānot iustly be coūted railing But you find fault with vs that hauing writē the lewd liues of your bishops Popes on the one side of the leafe we set not down on the other side in the meane time the succession of those good ones that we had This law you nether haue nor cā alwaies obserue your selfe For though you haue had many good Popes bishops yet a great while your good ones haue bene as hard to finde as cole-black swans And yet you please your selfe and your frends that take pleasure in your giving scoffing in asking vs when your Popes behaued thēselues il at Rome who were the holy doctors at Geneua whē your doctors preached against God vnder what signe our ministers lodged al this kind of Rhetorick of yours is groūded vpō a false principle namely that the Church and ministers thereof haue bene alwaies must be so visible as that in al times demonstration may be made thereof cōtrary to these often alleadged prophecies 2. Thess 2. Reu. 12. 17. And the thing that deceiueth you nourisheth in you this errour is that you expoūd the places of scripture which are vttered concerning the continuāce spiritual beauty of the church of the elect the true heauenly Hierusalē spouse of Christ as spokē of the cōtinuance of particuler Churches or of the outward order state of the Church militant onely and that you either wilfully or otherwise cannot distinguish betwixt the being and continuing of the Church and her pastors and the maner of their being and cōtinuing and so you construe those places that proue her being and their continuing as though therupō followed your maner of visible and apparent being also as though there were no being or continuing of the Church but in your maner Whereas in Israel in Ahabs time you haue heard both the Church and ministers therof ther continued in that euen in that kingdōe Obadiah had hid 100 prophets and God had reserued vnto himselfe 7000. that had not bowed their knees to Baal yet not in your maner For Eliah was not able to make such demonstration thereof who they were and where they were as you require of vs for he thought himselfe alone 1. King 18. 19. O but you very like a diuine proue out of Mat. 10. Ro. 10. because Christ hath saied him that denieth me before mē wil I deny before my heauenly father and Paul requireth aswel confession with the mouth to saluation as beleife with the hart to iustification that therefore they could not be faithful beleeuers because they did hide themselues As though euery one were a denier of Christ that hideth himselfe frō the fury of the persecutour Or as though none confesse with their mouth to saluation that so hide themselues What think you then of the 100 prophetes before named And of Eliah himselfe who as it appeareth in those places hid themselues from Ahab and Iesebels furie Haue you forgotten that the same Christ saieth in the same Chap to his Apostles If they persecute you in one City flie to another And that the same Paul himselfe did sundry times by hiding himselfe from the hands of his persecutours saue his life As you may read Act. 17. and elswhere Who though he were assured in a vision by reuelation from God that with safety of life hee should come to testifie of Christ and his Gospel at Rome yet refused not al good and lawful means to haue himselfe conueied away and so to escape the hands of his bloudy persecutors the Iewes which had solemnly boūd thēselues with an oath that they would neither eat nor drinke til they had killed him Act. 23.11.12 Your diuinity is not so simple I thinke but that you vnderstand that as long as a Christian carieth that minde and purpose that wheresoeuer he is he will be ready boldly to yeeld a sound confession of his faith and therefore when he is called thereunto and iustly occasioned is ready to perfourme that purpose of his and doeth it indeed that man cannot bee saied to deny Christ or not to confesse him with his mouth though by flying and hiding himselfe as long as he may lawfully he seeke to keepe himselfe for the further good of Gods Church out of the handes of his persecutours And therefore you were much to blame by thus wresting of these places of Scriptures to seeke to abuse your Reader But our Religion you say was not found out then and Caluins great grandfather had not once dreamed of his Religion and therefore no maruell though they could not be found that were the
which is but a mā often times an ignorant wicked man to vnderstand the scriptures and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God nor any true desire after knowledge but rather after ignorāce because that is the best foūdation of your Religiō And therefore as the fashiō is you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne happily iudge them to be as hard to all others as to your selues and thereupon by the hardnes thereof discourage them from reading them as much as you cā I am sure whatsoeuer you or any of your fellowes prate hereof that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers as well as to the great learned men of this world For therein and thereby I know that God is no accepter of persons and therefore so far of is it that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto thē or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes should driue them from the reading and studying of thē that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof For we see in our earthly fathers will the harder the tearines and phrases be wherein he hath giuen vs any thing or willeth vs to doe any thing nature reason hath taught vs not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines cost but a great deale more to seeke to vnderstand the same how much more ought it to be so in this case And I am perswaded that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade study them with hope to vnderstand them that the other might admonish him to be no negligent but a careful wise peruser of them so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them Which it should seeme both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours Gregory in his epist to Leander had obserued in noting that God had so ordred the scriptures as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate for the weakling milke and that there both the Elephāt might swimme and the lambe safely wade These things notwithstāding whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose I perceiue that you in this your lōg discourse of the hereticks abusing and wresting the scriptures cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose so the thereby you might gaine thus much as by such experiments to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue study of the scriptures For I know they greatly comber you stād in your way and therefore by your wils you cared not if the people neuer hearde of them wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe great Champions against them as it is well knowen too too often For first for their authority though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church For otherwise we could not beleeue them but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them adding further that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion but rather to be subiect thereunto And Ecchius another great doctour of yours of the same time in his Enchiridion writing of the authority of the church saieth that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority but through the authority of the Church and therefore he boldly affirmeth that to say that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church is hereticall and the contrary is Catholicke And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge that one of your crue meaning thereby one Herman had not beene ashamed to say that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables but for the testimony of the church Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours writing against the saied Brentius in his third booke being of the authority of the scripture defends it as well inough spoken for saieth he vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall it could haue had small authority with vs. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book seuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God but by the testimony of the Church insomuch that she must determine saieth he what bookes be Canonicall and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into or out of the Canon Of the same iudgemēt is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther And this position so liked Ecchius that in the place before cited he writes of the margent Achilles against this position to insinuate that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours And yet when all comes to all your meaning all this while is by the Church to vnderstand onely the Pope forasmuch as none but hee hath the tongue of the Church in weelding For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures which is also Canus fift proposition in effect in the Chapter before named This being your meaning Leo the tenth being one of your Popes what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture if it be true that is writen of him that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall cōtemptuously saied speaking of the Gospell that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them And as for the vncertainty of the sēce insufficiēcy of thē who knoweth not what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow in amplifying the hardnes of them in either preferring therefore or equalling the vnwritē word with you call the liuely practise of the church before thē both for plainnes sufficiency Whē you are in this vaine both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified and Piggius also by your Andradius Orthodox Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the scriptures to a nose of waxe he to a leaden lesbian rule and to their further
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
adoret let no man adore Mary I say not a woman but a man neither For this mistery is due to God then Angels are not capable of this glorie c. And therefore the same Epiphanius lib. 1. heres 38. writeth against the Caians for their inuocation of Angels It should seeme therefore that Petrus Gnapheus who was condemned for an heretique in the 5. generall Councell was infected with some of these heresies For about the yeare of the lord 470. as it appeareth in Nicephorus 15. booke and 28. Chapter he was busie in deuising and vrging how Mary should in the publicke Lyturgie not onely be honourably named but also called vpon prayed vnto But if we would know the antiquity of these heretiques and of you their schollers Epiphanius haeres 79. sendeth vs for the originall of their pedigree to the woman in Ieremies time that backd cakes to the Queene of heauen and powred forth their offerings to other Gods to prouoke the Lorde to anger and therefore he calleth for Ieremy to charme to stay those adorers of Mary that he wrote so against that they trouble the world no more In deede he saieth rouÌ„dly to those idolatrous women in his time in the person of God Doe they prouoke me to anger saieth the Lorde and not theÌ„selues to the coÌ„fusion of their owne faces And so goeth on in denouncing Gods heauy vengeance against them for the same cap. 2. Hier. And therefore seing you are so like them in the cause hereof take heede you be not enforced to be as like them in the punishment You haue heard out of Origens 8. booke to Celsus how like herein you are to that Idolater both for the matter of your practise and doctrine and for the reasons you haue to confirme the same and that he there shewes flatly that he thought that that was not the waie to please God but rather to displease him to leaue him and to runne to his Saints and Angels to entreate them to bee meanes vnto him for them And Chrysostome also who is the second man that here you would make vs beleeue is on your side to cleare himselfe of all such impietie de muliere Cananea hom 12. saieth thus Tell me ô woman how thou durst beeing a sinner goe vnto Christ I know what I doe saieth she as he makes her to answer him See the wisdome of the woman saith he she asketh not Iames Peter nor Iohn Yea in another homilie of his tom 5. de profectu Euangelii he further obserueth that when the Disciples came and spake for her he answered I am not sent but to the lost sheepe of Israel but when shee came her selfe that then shee had her request so thereby there labouring and in expresse wordes in that homily to encourage meÌ„ directly and immediately as plainly as we doe to make their praiers to Christ themselues and not by aduocates And as for Augustine the third man you name hee hath meetelie well alreadie cleared himselfe euen in the verie place you quote but to make the matter out of doubt let vs heare him somewhat further to speak for his full purgâ—â—ion in this point In his fiftie fiue Chapter de vera religione and in his 22. booke and 10. Chapter of the cittie of God hee plainely writeth that to builde either temple or altar vnto Saints or Angels then which nothing is more common with you is flatly vnlawfull and in the former of these places hee saieth that Saints are to be honoured for imitation but not for religion adding that which the highest Angell vvorshippeth that must the lowest man vvorshippe and in the other hee saieth that they neuer sacrificed nor builte temples to Saintes And in the place you cyted out of him hee saieth vvhich of the Bishoppes saied standing at the altar wee offer to thee Peter or Paul c. where in his 8. booke of the citty of God cap. 27. he vtterly condemneth as vnlawfull offering of any sacrifice to the Martyrs And yet more directly against you in his second booke against the epistle of Parm. c. 8. he writeth thus if Iohn should haue saied these things wrote I vnto you that you sinne not if any man sinne yee haue me for an aduocate with God and I wil entreate him for your sinnes as Parmenian in a certaine place saith he put the Bishop a mediatour betwixt the people God what good and faithfull Christian saieth he would haue suffered him yea who would haue taken him for an Apostle of Christ and not for a very Antichrist Ambrose also vpoÌ„ the first to the RomaÌ„s is as flat against any mediatours betwixt God vs besides Christ Iesus as any of these yea there he doeth as directly confute your ordinary reason of your getting the better to God by these as to the Prince by his Nobles as we telling you first that that is vnder the pretence of humility reuerence to the Prince to make your selues to the perill of your saluation guilty of high treason against him For it is to giue that honour that is due vnto the Prince vnto his Nobles thus to leaue the creatour to adore the creature and then further answering you that your reason holdeth not from Princes Courts on earth to Gods in heaueÌ„ For they are men saith he therfore to theÌ„ men must so come because otherwise they know not whom to trust but with God that knoweth al things to win his fauour Suffragatore non est opus sed mente deuotâ there is no neede of one to speake for vs but of a deuout mind And therefore he goeth on and saieth that such as yet will adore their fellow seruants or creatures turne the glory of God into the similitude of men c. as it followeth in the text Againe howsoeuer some frende of yours vnder the name of Athanasius hath caused one to speake in your language saying make intercession for me mistresse Ladie Queene of heauen yet Athanasius indeede to make it appeare how much he abhorred that impietie in his orations against the Arrians which all men know and confesse were his first oratione secundâ saieth Sancti non postulant a creato aliquo c. that is the holie seruants of God asked not of a creature to bee their helper Christ therefore whose help they craue is true God and then againe oratione tertiâ he writeth thus creatura non adorat creaturam c. the creature adores not the creature therfore Christ who is adored is god These arguments of his had not beene good neither would hee euer haue made them if he had thought it lawful to honour and adore Saints as you doe or as you would by fathering the former kinde of inuocation of Mary vpon him make men beleeue he did And indeede Paul taking it for a thing that could not be denied him RoÌ„ 10. that none might pray vnto any in whom he might not beleeue and it being most cleare that the
testimony that he might haue such school masters as I haue saied to teach him herein somwhat to fauor you to speake of your side Irenaeus in his first book 24. chapter testifieth of the heretique Carpocrates that he was a great admirer of philosophy insomuch that to the images he made of Christ and of some of his Apostles he ioyned the images of Pythagoras Plato and Aristotle of whom hee learned to imagine that there was a purifying place after this life and so to proue purgatory out of that place of Matthew as you hearde before Montanus Paraclet did And the heretiques Heracleones as Augustine wryteth of them vsed ouer their deade oyle balme water and inuocation in the Hebrewe tongue Hereunto ioyne you Virgils 6 book of his Aeneidos lying visions you haue the right scholemasters that haue taught you al that fauour you in this point But concerning the places in Tertullian which you quote we need not thus answere you for they are not so pregnant for you as you imagined For the words you ground on in the first place are these spoken by him to the wife to teach her how in this point to behaue her selfe towards her dead husband pro animâ eius oret refrigerium interim adpostulet ei in primâ resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius that is let her pray for his soule and in the meane time desire refreshing for him and felowshippe in the first resurrection and let her offer alwaies when the yeare day commeth for his sleeping which are the words as Beatus Rhenanus confesseth that he hath so set downe acknowledging that he found it far otherwise in all examples before Againe not onely this obscurity of Tertullians wordes and the vncertainety what they were disableth this place from being of any force for you to ground vpon but also vnles you must haue it granted that euery womans husband to whom he gaue this counsel was in purgatorie wherof there is no ground at all in his wordes in that booke but rather the contrary whereby it should seeme that he spake of such as were gone before in peace to the Lord his words if they were these proue not your praying to relieue soules there And the offering that he lastly speaketh of was either the offering of thankes to God for his quiet rest and sleeping or an offering or giuing of almes to the poore in token of ioy for the same and to prouoke them to be thākeful therfore also as you heard me before note the fashion was when the tracts of Iob fathered vpon Origen were writen out of the third tract of the same and not as you woulde haue it taken an offering of your propitiatory sacrifice in your masse for his sinnes For hee saieth for his falling a sleepe and not for his sinnes and hee willeth the woman to offer and not that she should get the Priest to doe it And in answering of this place your other is also answered for there onely he saieth oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitiis annuâ die facimus that is wee offer oblations for the dead for their birth daies euery yeares day For in that he expresly saieth pro natalitiis for their birth daies it is euident that he cannot nor may not be vnderstood of any other oblation but of thankefulnesse and reioicing But this offering for their birth daies Beatus Rhenanus vpon this place in his notes saieth was heathenish and afterwards was condemned and abolished by the Nicene councell and others And yet for any thing that these words of Tertullian enforce in this place he speaketh of no other oblations for the dead but for their birth daies so that long ago the date and credit of this testimony and fashion was abrogated And lastly it is not to be forgotten that he himselfe within few lines after these words speaking of this fashion of sundry others that there also he had spoken of plainely confesseth that these thinges had no grounde in the scriptures but onely by tradition That which other of your fellowes alleadge to this purpose out of Tertullian in his exhortation to charity may receiue the same answere with these for it is euident that booke also was writen in his Montanisme for there hee is against second marriage as in the first and so against Paul Romans 7. 1. Cor. 7. and with Montanus and the words are no more pregnant to ground praier to relieue soules in purgatory then the former were Now next is Cyprian who was a bishop in that City wherein sōetimes Tertullian had liued in him for your praier for the dead you would haue vs read his Epistle ad plebem Furnensem in his first booke I am sure you meane the ninth Epistle of that booke writen as it appeareth there ad plebem Furnilanorum though either you could not or would not to put your reader to a little more paines to seeke it out tell vs so much But hauing found it and read it howsoeuer you were perswaded of it we finde little or nothing there that can doe you any good for onely there of a decree made in some Africane Synode before his time he groundeth his perswasion to that people forasmuch as one Victor had contrary to that decree made one Heminius Faustinus minister executour of his wil and testament therefore to stay others from daring any more so to violate that decree to the calling away the ministers from attendance of their ministry that they should execute that decree against that their brother Victor departed which was that for this cause there should be no offering for him nor sacrifice for his falling a sleepe For saieth he he is not worthy to be named in the praier of the Priest that wil so cal away the ministers or Priests from the altar therefore seeing this is Victors fault let there be no oblatiō with you for his sleeping nor in his name any deprecatiō frequēted in the Church Doe you thinke in good earnest Master Albine that if Cyprian had thought that his brother Victors soule had bene in such paines in purgatory as you teach are there and that these were the ordinarie meanes to ease soules there that for so small a matter as this the breaking of this positiue law which with you is vsually broken if in your sence these things were to be vnderstoode of oblation sacrifice and praier for the ease of the party so departed from vnder the punishment vpon him for his sinnes that Cyprian either might lawfully could without too too much cruelty or would so without all mercy and charity perswade to depriue a brother departed of these things You cannot be so without reason as once to thinke so The execution of this Canon against Victor was but onely a note of some disgrace ignominy laied vpon him the better to make others after to regarde that Canon and not any denying of his soule any thing so necessary
spirit and whosoeuer amongst vs come vnto the scriptures trusting to their owne wittes and so puft vp with ignorance as you speake we vtterly mislike thē as much as you But that you shoulde giue forth this sentence of yours in such general tearmes against simple poore men amongst vs that trauell in the Scriptures you had neither reason nor charity in so doing Commonly such rash iudging of others proceedeth from a minde euen so qualified as you charge theirs to be and from no other fountaine And who so considereth their grosse ignorance and errors that remaine in your great Clerkes euerie where notwithstanding these scriptures what other learning soeuer they pretend he hath most iust occasion thereby to iudge that either they study the scriptures verie little or els that they come to them with the mindes you talke of And if you woulde tell vs plainelie what you meane by humility of spirit which in this case you speake of wee should soone perceiue that thereby you vnderstand not true Christian humilitie which through a base conceite that it breedeth in the owner stirreth him vp the more earnestlie to craue assistance of Gods spirit and by diligent search of the Scriptures and more carefull vse of all good meanes to compasse the right vnderstanding of them but a popish and slauish kinde of humilitie which must breede in the owner such a seruile depending vpon your Popes will and Churches tradition for the sence thereof as that he admit no sence at al of them though thrust vpon him neuer so plainelie by the euidence of the place that will not fullie agree therewith Which breedeth in all of your side either a flat giuing ouer all reading of them or els such a reading of them as that they must bring a sence vnto them from the tradition of your Church and so enforce that vpon them whither they will or no for howsoeuer the scripture speake the Churches tradition maie not be contraried This is your humblenes of spirit when you haue brought Gods spirit speaking in the Scriptures in subiection vnto your popish spirit but this is a proud humilitie and a cursed meekenes You doe but malitiouslie slander vs in that you would perswade your reader that how bad and simple soeuer the man were before assoone as a bishop hath made him minister we say streight hee hath the holy Ghost and no Scripture is to harde for him if hee can with all say the Lorde and rayle vpon the Pope c. And yet I must tell you that wee thinke it not vnlawfull but very necessarie to paint out your Pope with the colours that are due vnto him that men may the better beware of him and yet wee count that no rayling but wee neither tie the holie Ghost to the imposition of the Bishops handes nor place anie such matter in these things here mentioned by you as you woulde leade your reader to imagine we doe You know we might as easily and sute I am with far more trueth saie that with you how lewd vnlearned soeuer the man bee yet when one of your bishops hath priested him thē if he can cal the Pope most holie father speake reuerētly of your Cardinals bishops other prelates saie fi◠on these heretiques these Lutherans and Zuinglians he is straight a famous and worthie catholique Priest with you But wheras amongst other things you obiect that as a fault to their disgrace that they say the ancient doctours were men and that the generall Councels haue erred it is but to discredit them with the simple For you know that the learned knowe that both fathers and councels haue erred that you your owne selues when they write or determine any thing which you like not wil and doe as plainelie as we acknowledge the same For which point let a man read Andrad first booke writen in defence of the Tridentine faith and but what Pighius hath writen of purpose for such cause to discredit the sixt and seuenth Sinods and hee shall most plainelie perceiue that councels are of no further credit with you then they shall be found to say nothing to your mislike But to make it cleare that it is no absurditie to say or hold that coūcels and fathers may erre and haue erred it is wel knowen that as the first Nicean councell and sundry after accordingly decreed a right against the Arrians for the trueth of Christs manhood so the Tyrian the Sirmiense the Ariminense the Sebucian and the Antiochē councels determined with the Arrians against the Nicean and the trueth The second councel of Nice Act. 5. agreed that Angels and mens soules are bodily and circumscriptible and yet this councel notwithstanding this grosse errour was confirmed by the 6 councel held at Constantinople which Pope Agatho hath allowed for a general councell The 3. councell of Carthage cap. 23. determined that all praiers at the altar should onelie be made to the father The 2 councell of Ephesus was on Eutyches the heretiques side and decreed for him Your late councels of Constance and Basil decreed a dangerous errour in your conceit I am sure whē they decreed the authoritie of the general councell to be aboue the Popes For your holy father could not be quiet vntill he got the contrary decreed in other two Synods at Ferraria and Florence And in the 6 of Constantinople mentioned before there was a perilous heresie agreed on I am sure in your iudgement Canonthirty six against your Popes title namelie that the Bishops of Constantinople shoulde enioy and haue equall priuiledges with them of Rome See also the twenty two Chapter of the Mileuitan councell Ca. the 26. of the 3 councell at Carthage and the 92 Chapter of the African the Epistles of the same to Boniface Caelestine and you shal finde plaine direct Canōs against the Supremacy that now your Popes callēge You were best therfore not onely to be cōtēt that we say general coūcels may er but to learne to say so aswel as we your selues al the sort of you or els you see you are not frēds to your holy father You may doe it I warrāt you without any discredit For August a great doctor in his 2. booke 3. Chap against the Donatists saieth that the very general councels are often corrected the former by the later as often as by triall experience the thing is opened that before was shut And therfore disputing against Maximinus li. 3. ca. 14. he calleth him frō the coūcels to the touchstōe of the scriptures And as for the doctors the same Aug. being one of the chiefe of thē in his 2. booke 2. Chap. against Cresconius plainly cōfesseth that the iudges or doctors of the Church as being mē are oftē deceiued therfore in his 2 booke of one baptisme he writeth that we may argue doubt of the writings of any bishop whosoeuer he be but we may not so doe of the holy scriptures If he had
not thought that he himselfe not onely might but had erred would he euer haue writeÌ„ as he did a booke of RetractioÌ„s or RecaÌ„tatioÌ„s And indeed in his 2 book 4. Chap. ad BonifaciuÌ„ against that 2. Epist of the PelagiaÌ„s it appeareth that he was of opinioÌ„ that of necessity childreÌ„ were to receiue the CoÌ„munion or els they could not be saued because it is writeÌ„ Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ drinke his bloud yee haue no life in you and Pope Innocent and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then And yet I thinke now your selues holde this to bee an errour aswell as wee And who will read his fourth booke de animâ eius origine ad Vincentium and his prologue to his retractions he should there plainlie finde him confesse that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vnto in any case but rather pardon and follow him non erraÌ„teÌ„ sed in melius proficientem not erring but better profiting Yea in the later place he saieth that he would not arrogate that perfection to himselfe then being old much lesse when hee was young not to erre And I thinke that you are not ignorant that Irenaeus and Papias were plaine Millenaries and that Cyprian a nuÌ„ber of bishops in his time in Affricke held in councel decreed that rebaptizatioÌ„ of those that had bene baptized by hereticks which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now Why therefore especially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the scriptures may we not say that which is true that they both might haue erred And thus you haue your answere first generally to your principall scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters set downe togither because the drift of them was but al one and now also a further answere to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered But yet you haue not quite done with this matter let vs therefore further follow you to see if you haue said any more to the purpose in that which is behinde then in that which we haue heard already The XXVII Chapter I Pray Syrs since you are so absolute answere me to this obiection a A vaine questioÌ„ for whoeuer of vs either saied or wrote so is it good to beleeue almaner of people that doe alleage the Scriptures or not If ye say yea why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus Apollinaris Hebion Cherintus and Nestorius with diuers others that haue sought to maintaine their errours with the new olde Testament If you saie no but that we ought rather to follow the counsell of S. Iohn in his first Epistle cap. 4. The which is not to beleeue euery spirit but that we ought to proue whether it be of God or no b Our proofe is that our senâ—e wherein we alleage them stands with the rest of the scriptures is according to the analogy of faith and good maners receiued to be the sence of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church What proofe wil you shew vs of yours Shewe the priuiledge that you haue by the vvhich God dieth enioine vs to beleeue your Gospel rather the the Gospell of the Pelagians Nouatians Nestorians and other such false Apostles considering that they haue alleaged the Scriptures aswel as you If you saie that they were heretickes abusers of the people and rauishing wolues cloathed in lambes skins and false interpreters of the Scriptures all this is certaine a The more haue they to answere for that report so for they can neuer proue it to be so But vvhat though the like report goeth of you Ye say that ye are sent from Cod to reforme the Church They saie as much b Which of hem I pray you seeing they liued before the B. of Rome beâ—ame Antichrist They preached that the Pope vvas Antichrist c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one shevving themselues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling against the Catholicke Roman Church you doe the like d You say so but you â—ay more then you can proue At euerie vvord they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons to confirme their doctrine as you doe for yours That that they preached was called by them the Gospel the pure vvorde of the Lord these are the verie tearmes that you vse among your holie prophetes they haue beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels e Not yet by any lawful and f ee geneâ—al councel was euer our religioÌ„ or any point of it condemned you are so likewise They did appeale vnto the pure vvord of God you doe the like Yet are they proued to be false f This iâ— flat dogs eloquence cogging knaues and so shal you Then seeing there is so great an vniformitie betvveene you vpon vvhat grounde g Vpon this that we are able to iustifie our alleaging of them to to be sound and catholicke which they are not shall vvee confirme that reason that shoulde condemne them as heretiques allow you for Catholicks h This question is rather meete to be proposed to you who haue learned of the Donatists to tye the Church to your popes sleue and to shut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Augustine in his Epistle 161. did put vnto a Donatist called Honoratus this probleme We desire thee not to thinke it much to answere vs to this what cause doest thou know or what thing hath there beene done that hath made Chirst loose his inheritance spred ouer all the world to coÌ„e to be contained onely in Affricke there onelie to remaine We put the like question to i Though your popish Church hath bene none of his â—nheritaÌ„ce a good while yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will haue and this we hold and teach and therefore your question is vâ—iâ—e friuolous and flaâ—â—eâ—ous Caluin Beza Viret the rest that it may please theÌ„ to tel vs if that by chauÌ„ce they haue bene aduertised through what occasion our Sauiour Christ hath lost his inheritaunce that is to say the Church spread ouer all the world to remaine now in the later daies with a coÌ„panie of rude Swizers or in two or three corners besides not among the rest for there is a great number of good Catholickes what badge caÌ„ you shew or what signe to make vs know that you are the successours of the Apostles of Christ If that the Scriptures that you alleage ought to be a sufficient proofe we are content to accept it k There as no need that we should doe so because we can proue that we alleadge them soundly they falsely corruptly if you will be content to grant