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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06697	A profitable dialogue for a peruerted papist. Or a little labour of a lay men tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist: namely, by laying open vnto him his ovvne errour, in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre. Composed in dialogue maner, as it were betweene a simple lay man, and certayne graue diuines, and published onely for the benefit of the lay Papist. VVritten by R.M. gent. and student in Diuinity.	R. M., student in divinity.	1609 (1609)	STC 17149; ESTC S103258	25,816	46

and in his 96 Treatis By this occasion of the Euangelicall sentence where our Lord sayth I haue yet many things to say to you c. all the most foolish heretickes that would be called Christians go about to colour the boldnesse of their owne inuentions c. But who dares to auouch that such and such are those things which Christ had to say to his Disciples and if they do auouch it how do they proue it c Lay. To this thou hast answered very playne for by this thy playne speach we well perceyue thy meaning in an other place u Against the Epistle of Fundament Chap. 5. where thou sayest that Thou shouldest not haue beleeued the Gospell vnlesse the Authority of the Church had moued thee thereunto c. Wée also in these our dayes may iustly auouch the same thing because first the authority of the Church is the meanes for the most part to moue the outward man both to know and beléeue and also to reuerence the holy Scriptures But tell vs yet reuerend Father is that authority still absolutely to be obeyed albeit it teach vncertayne things which the Scripture doth not allow or may we then lawfully forsake it although by the same meanes we first beléeued Aug. My sonne x Against the same Epistle Chap 14. What haue we to do but to forsake them that inuite vs to know things certayne and afterwards commaund vs to beleeue things vncertayne and to follow them which inuite vs first to beleeue that which we are not yet able to behold that being made stronger by faith it selfe we may attayne to vnderstand that which we beleeue now not men but GOD himselfe confirming and lightening our mindes inwardly c. None can be ignorant y In his ● Booke of Baptisme against the ●onatis●s Chap. ● that the holy Canonicall Scripture as well of the old as of the new Testament is contayned within her certayne limits and that it is so preferred before all later writings of Bishops that whatsoeuer is certaine to be written in it can not in any wise be doubted or disputed whether it be true or right ☞ But the writings of Bishops which haue By this distinction betweene the certayney of holy Scripture and the vncertaynty of all other writings he proues by good consequence that the visible Church may erre bene written or which are now written after the Canon is confirmed may be lawfully reprehended both by a more wise speach of some man which perhaps is more skilfull in that matter and also by a more graue authority and more learned prudence of other Bishops and by Councels if perhaps any thing in them haue strayed from the trueth And euen Councels themselues which are gathered in any Region or Prouince must without all doubt giue place to the authority of generall Councels which are gathered out of the vniuersall Christian world And oftentimes the former generall Councels themselues may be corrected by the later when in any try all of matters that is opened which was shut and that knowne which was hidden z Nothing is hid from the holy Ghost therfore the holy Ghost is not assistant to those general Councels which may be corrected without any swelling of sacrilegious pride without any stiffe-necke of puffing arrogancy without any contention of cankred enuy with holy humility with Catholike peace with Christian charity c. But for this matter I haue written at large in my booke of the vnity of the Church Lay. Vndoubtedly these things from thée are most effectuall to proue the Church of Rome to erre in affirming that she cannot erre But yet for more confirmation thereof we pray thée to deliuer vnto vs thy iudgement also touching a principall matter of the Christian faith now in controuersy betwéene vs to wit concerning the presence of Christ in the blessed Sacrament of his Body and Blood But before we procéede in that matter we will craue a few words from Gregory the great sometime Bishop of Rome touching the vniuersall supremacy of the Pope of Rome for we take his vniuersall authority to be the onely cause that Romes errours haue bene so much scattered and dispersed abroad into euery Christian nation And because they hold now in Rome that the Bishop of Rome cannot erre we thinke the best proofe against them therein is to bring the Bishop of Rome against the Bishop of Rome Speake diuine Gregory what sayest thou to him that is called by the name of Vniuersall Bishop Gregory My sonne If any one in the Church snatch to himselfe that name a In his Register the 4. Booke Epistle 32. then by the iudgement of all good men when he falls which is called Vniuersall the vniuersall Church falleth frō her state which God forbid But farre be that name of Blasphemy from Christian hearts by which the honour of al Priests is taken away while it is foolishly arrogated by one to himselfe c. b In his 6. Booke and 〈◊〉 Epistle I speake it boldly whosoeuer cals himselfe vniuersall Priest or desires to be so called by the same pride of his he forerunneth Antichrist for by pride hee preferreth himselfe before others and by the same pride he is led into errour c. Lay. Verily hadst not thou thy selfe bene Bishop of Rome the Church of Rome could hardly brooke these words of thine for here thou doest not onely call this name A name of Blasphemy but contrary to their opinion touching the immutable doctrine of the visible Church thou doest also affirme that by the iudgement of all good men when he which is called Vniuersall falls into errour then the vniuersall Church falls from her state also But yet thou séemest here to speake somewhat doubtfull in discommending him onely that doeth arrogate to himselfe this vniuersall authority It may be that thou doost allow the Bishop of Rome to consent vnto it and so to take it being offered by others Gregory My sonne c In his 4. Booke and 36. Epistle This name of Vniuersal was by the Calcedon Councell offered to one Bishop of the Apostolike seat in which I serue God disposing but none of my predecessours consented at any time to vse this so prophane a name Lay. Why would they not consent to it Greg. Truely because if one be called d In his 39. Epistle the vniuersal Patriark the name of Patriarks is taken frō the rest But away with that c. To consent to that wicked name is nothing else but to destroy faith c. e In his ● Booke and 69. Epistle One to be Vniuersal Bishop is to the iniury renting of the whole Church and as we haue sayd to the contempt of all Bishops for if one be vniuersal as he thinketh it remayneth that the rest are not Bishops c. Lay. But if the Church of Rome permit this matter to be lawfull which thou doost so much gainesay doth any euill then come thereby Our Lord

visible congregation which may professe Christ by words and deny him by deeds another Fourthly touching Baptisme the outward Sacrament the washing of the outward man is one thing and the inward grace the clensing of the inward man another Fiftly touching the Eucharist The outward Sacrament also foode for the Body is one thing and the inward matter euerlasting life for the soule another and so foorth in the like Now the faithfull knowing well the differences in these things and that the one may be oftentimes taken without the other will neuer permit the aduersary to passe away vncorrected with any vntrueth therein be it neuer so little because from one error another may ensue but not possible directly an errour to proceede from trueth for Gods word is not both Yea and Nay in one thing but absolutely Yea or Nay as S. Paul testifieth γ 2. Cor. 1. As touching the maner of my collecting hereof I may iustly auouch it from the first authors themselues but admit it were otherwise yet let no man be so vayne as to thinke the trueth to be of lesse force in one place then in another but let him rather learne this wisdome from S. Paul that although Paul or Apollos or whosoeuer plant and water yet it is God onely that giues the blessing of increase * 1. Cor. 3. 6 7. And because God may giue that heauenly blessing to whom he will and without respect of persons γ Ephe. 6. 9. in hope of the same blessing vpon this my little labour rude and harsh in maner and forme though in substance according to trueth I will now require no more of thee courteous Reader but that thou wilt permit it thy fauourable pasport and not to reiect the maner of it more then to respect the matter in it in so doing thou shalt declare thy selfe a most faithfull friend to the simple Trueth and thereby not iustly to offend any whosoeuer Vale. A profitable Dialogue for a peruerted Papist Wherein he may clearely discerne his owne error in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre The first part briefly treating of the Church Lay man DIuine Augustine forasmuch as thy proper workes are of great fame estimation in the Church of Rome which now in part is fallen from that her first faith and integrity which sometime thou didst know her sincerely to hold for she doth now presumptuously auouch that she can not erre in any substantiall poynt of the Christian faith and by reason of that vaine and presumptuous opinion she is fallen by euill custome into diuers errours by which great controuersies among Christians do arise therefore in the behalfe of many simple Lay people we most earnestly craue of thée Reuerend Father to tell vs directly thy true opinion touching the vayne opinion of them which hold that the same Church cannot erre We certaynely perswade our selues that thy direct answeres herein will greatly preuayle with those our aduersaries for some of them haue written a N. D. Author of the Wardword in his 1. booke of of the ● conuersions of England Chap. 3. as a matter of great moment against Heretiks that Wheresoeuer any doctrine is found in any of the Ancient Fathers which is not contradicted nor noted by any of the rest as singular that doctrine is to be presumed to be no particular opinion of his but rather the generall of all the Church in his dayes for that otherwise it would most certaynly haue bin noted and impugned by others c. Therefore whatsoeuer is spoken by thée learned Aug. not yet contradicted they must thereby graunt it to be the Trueth of the Church in thy flourishing dayes We confesse that the true holy Catholike Church cannot finally erre for hell gates are not able to preuayle against it b Mat. 16. 18. but this holy Catholike Church we vnderstand to consist onely of the Elect as our Créede witnesseth euen the Communion of Saynts which without spot or wrinkle Christ by his precious bloud hath made glorious to himselfe c Ephe. ● 27. for against all other hell gates doe preuayle and that doeth the Euangelist S. Iohn witnesse saying d 1. Iohn ● 19. They went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had bene of vs they would haue continued with vs But this cōmeth to passe that it might appeare that they are not all of vs c. But it is euident that against whosoeuer hell gates may preuayle they also may erre for it is most true that none can erre more then those that take the ready way to hell supposing they goe to heauen By which we may well hold against the Church of Rome that not all which receyue the outward Sacrament of Baptisme are then made members of that Church which cannot finally erre And by this wée may well proue also that the Bishop of Rome may as much erre as the meanest of vs Laymen Saint Ambrose sayth c Vpon S. Luk● the 6. Booke 9. Chap. that The foundation of the Church is sayth If thou wilt be a Rock sayth he thou shalt be in the Church because the Church is vpon a Rock if thou be in the Church the gates of hell shall not preuayle against thee the gates of hell are the gates of death but the gates of hell cannot be the gates of the Church And what are the gates of death that is to say the gates of hell but euery one of our seuerall sinnes c. And more in an other place f Vpon the 40. Psalm Where Peter the Rock is saith he there is the Church where the Church is there is no death but eternal life and therefore he added And the gates of hell shall not preuayle against it He then that liues and dyes in his sinnes both liues and dyes out of the vnity of that holy Church against which hell gates can not preuayle But for these things speake diuine Augustine Aug. My sonne g Against Cresconius the 2 booke Chap. 21 22. The Apostle Paul doth say h Ephe. ● 2. that the Church is made subiect to Christ The Church therefore ought not to preferre her self before Christ that she should thinke to be able to baptize those which are iudged or condemned by him but not possible of her selfe to baptize them because he alwayes iudgeth truely but the Iudges of the Church as being men are often deceyued Therefore forasmuch as pertayneth to the visible ministery both good and euill baptize But by them he doth inuisibly baptize of whom both the visible baptisme and the inuisible grace is Both good and euill then may sprinkle but to wash the conscience not any can do it but he which is alwayes good * None but God alwaies good And by this also by reason of the euill and polluted conscience the Church is ignorant of such as are condemned by Christ They are not thē in the Body of Christ which is the Church because

prayed for the faith of S. Peter and so consequently for the faith of all his sucessours according to the opinion of the aduersary * In their Rhemish notes vpon the 28 of S. Luke verse 31. that it should neuer fayle But if any Bishop of Rome may proue a false Christian and liue so lewdly that he may dye a Reprobate then vndoubtedly euery Bishop of Rome is not the true successour of S. Peter vnlesse a true faith may contradict in maners the things which it professeth in words for it was a true faith in S. Peter which our Lord prayed for to continue in his Church and not a vaine fayth And if it be true that the Bishop of Rome may erre as he is man but not possible as he is Pope that is to say although in person he may erre in his priuate doctrine and maners yet not possible to erre iudicially or definitiuely then could it not be preiudiciall to the Church although Antichrist himselfe were Bishop of Rome * See S. Chrisost vpon the ● to the Th●ssa and S. Barna●d in h●s 123. Epistle and Vniuersall Bishop But according to diuine reason this séemes not agréeable to trueth Gregory My sonne If this be permitted to be lawfully spoken f In his 4. Booke and 36. Epistle the honor of all Patriarchies is denied and perhaps when he pe●isheth in errour which is called vniuers●ll then no Bishop is found to haue remayned in the state of trueth c. I say therefore the vniuersall Church g In his 6. Booke and Epi●tle 24. falleth to ruine if one Vniuersall fall But farre be this vanity and foolishness● from my eares c. * A true faith doth not contradict in maners the things which it professeth in words * for which Hom. 29 in Eu●ng Tit. 1. cause it was sayd of certayn false Christiās by S. Paul * that they confessed God in words but denied him in deeds by S. Iohn * that whosoeuer sayth he knoweth ● Iohn 2. God and keepeth not his cōmaundements is a Lyar Which being so we must examine the trueth of our faith by consideration of our life for then not otherwise are we true Christians if we fulfill in works that whereof we haue made promise in words c. Lay. Would to God thy successours had bene of the same mind herein as thou and thy predecessours were for then the Church vniuersally could neuer haue bene so much diuided as it hath bene for most true it is according to thy speach that within lesse time then this 200. yéeres past hardly was there a Bishop to be foūd remayning in that sincere and pure doctrine taught in the Primitiue Church but being reuolted and departed from that sound doctrine they all from the highest to the lowest taught lyes in hypocrisie euen as Saint Paul prophested of them forbidding to marry h 1. Tim. 4 1 2 3. and commaunding to abstayne from meates lawfully to be eaten with other such like errours and deceyueable doctrines But the principall cause of such vniuersall euils thou hast playnely declared to procéede from the pride of him called vniuersall Bishop which man wée take to be no better then Antichrist himselfe for according to S. Paul i 2. Thesse 2. 4. he sits hypocritically in the Temple of God in word The seruant of seruants but in déede extolling himselfe aboue all power on earth for by vsurped authority he séekes not onely to be supreme head ouer all Bishops but ouer all Chr●stian Kings also which loftynesse was ney●her in thée nor in thy predecessours and that thou doost make most manifest not onely by these playne speaches here vttered but elsewhere also k In hi● 38. Epistle Chap. 82. with which we restfully satisfied herein And so we will conclude this first part with a few words taken frō our late Minister but now an Apos●ata Theophilus Higgons * Written since hi● re●o●t in his first Motiue Page 64. because they cōtaine a truth touching this poynt contrary to himself as thus It was a tyranny in Mezentius sayth he to bynd liuing men vnto dead carkeyses But the wisdome of God doth assure me and me also that he will not tye the lyuing body of his Church vnto the dead and putrified members thereof The end of the first part The second part treating of the Sacrament of the Blessed Body and Blood of our LORD and Sauiour Iesus Christ NOw diuine Augustine let vs go forward in that principall poynt touching the holy Sacrament let vs certaynely know thy mind whether Christ be there after a spirituall maner onely for the faithfull to eate and drinke or after a corporal and carnall maner as foode both for the worthy and vnworthy receyuer We find in holy Scripture that our Sauiour called l Iohn 6. 35. and 10. 7. and 15. 1. himselfe Bread called himselfe a Doore called himselfe a Vine These things in a spiritual sence we know to be truely and properly spoken yet according to the letter we take them figuratiuely to be spoken But wée would gladly vnderstand from thée what our Sauiour meant when he called Bread his body m Mat. 26. 26. and also what he meant when he sayd Exceptye eate n Iohn 〈…〉 the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye haue no life in you c. Whether these speaches according to the letter were figuratiue or proper Aug. My sonne Our Lord doubted not to say This is my body o Against Adamantus Chap. 12 when he gaue the signe of his Body c. p Vpon the 3. Psal Christ admitted Iudas to that Banket in which he did deliuer to his disciples the figure of his Body c. Note this also If it be a speach of commaundement eyther forbidding a mischieuous deed or a hainous fact q In his ● Booke of Christian doctrine Chap. 16. or commaunding a profitable thing or a good deed it is not figuratiue But if it seeme to cōmaund a wicked deed and a naughty fact or to forbid a profitable thing or a good deed it is figuratiue Vnlesse ye shall eate sayth he the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye shall not haue life in you c. He doth seeme to commaund a hainous or wicked deed It is a figure therefore commaunding vs to communicate with the passion of our Lord and sweetely and profitably to lay vp in memory that his flesh was crucifyed and wounded for vs c. r Vpon the 98. Psalm The words which I haue spoken vnto you sayth Christ is spirit and life s Iohn 6. 63. Vnderstand spiritually that which I haue spoken vnto you Ye shall not eate this Body which ye see neyther shall ye drinke that blood which they shall sheade that crucify me I haue commended vnto you a certayne Sacrament which being spiritually vnderstood shall giue you life c. t ●n his 2● ●reati● vpon