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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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any_o mortal_a man_n be_v so_o audacious_a to_o pull_v he_o out_o of_o it_o and_o if_o that_o no_o man_n can_v excommunicate_v the_o pope_n because_o no_o man_n be_v his_o superior_a neither_o can_v any_o man_n depose_v a_o king_n because_o no_o man_n be_v his_o superior_a but_o the_o objection_n out_o of_o ruffinus_n his_o contimation_n of_o eusebius_n that_o constantine_n the_o great_a say_v unto_o the_o bishop_n assemble_v in_o the_o counsel_n of_o nice_a answer_v a_o place_n of_o ruffinus_n answer_v god_n have_v constitute_v you_o priest_n and_o have_v give_v you_o power_n to_o judge_v also_o of_o we_o and_o therefore_o just_o be_v we_o judge_v by_o you_o but_o what_o be_v the_o uttermost_a that_o can_v be_v infer_v of_o these_o word_n than_o a_o spiritual_a judgement_n for_o see_v he_o make_v they_o judge_n because_o they_o be_v priest_n and_o not_o prince_n how_o can_v it_o import_v any_o secular_a power_n for_o the_o name_n of_o priest_n signify_v a_o man_n separate_v from_o 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that_o be_v by_o i_o so_o that_o the_o office_n of_o be_v god_n minister_v he_o keep_v still_o after_o he_o become_v a_o chrstian_a neither_o be_v it_o fall_v unto_o the_o church_n by_o his_o embrace_v of_o the_o faith_n as_o pighius_fw-la say_v and_o although_o he_o refuse_v at_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o counsel_n to_o hear_v and_o determine_v the_o accusation_n that_o the_o bishop_n do_v put_v up_o unto_o he_o one_o against_o another_o of_o humility_n and_o policy_n because_o he_o will_v not_o have_v that_o time_n unprofitablie_o spend_v about_o private_a quarrel_n which_o have_v be_v appoint_v for_o the_o common_a cause_n of_o christ_n and_o his_o church_n and_o therefore_o burn_v all_o their_o bill_n of_o complaint_n yet_o that_o he_o deal_v with_o the_o correction_n and_o punishment_n of_o bishop_n it_o be_v apparent_a by_o that_o which_o i_o have_v already_o allege_v and_o be_v make_v much_o more_o manifest_a by_o that_o theodoretus_n write_v how_o the_o arrian_n of_o egypt_n suborn_v by_o money_n certain_a fellow_n because_o if_o they_o have_v do_v it_o themselves_o it_o will_v have_v smell_v to_o accuse_v athanasius_n unto_o constantine_n that_o he_o have_v set_v certain_a imposition_n in_o egypt_n and_o give_v the_o money_n thereof_o to_o one_o for_o to_o raise_v a_o commotion_n in_o the_o country_n whereupon_o the_o emperor_n send_v for_o he_o to_o appear_v before_o he_o at_o constantinople_n a_o long_a journey_n for_o the_o chief_a patriarch_n of_o the_o east_n whither_o he_o come_v and_o clear_v himself_o so_o substantial_o that_o say_v tbeodoretus_n he_o recover_v again_o his_o church_n allot_v unto_o he_o by_o god_n which_o be_v as_o much_o to_o say_v if_o he_o can_v not_o have_v satisfy_v the_o emperor_n he_o have_v lose_v his_o bishopric_n after_o this_o his_o enemy_n accuse_v he_o again_o unto_o emperor_n of_o many_o great_a crime_n who_o thereupon_o follow_v the_o honourable_a custom_n of_o this_o land_n that_o all_o man_n be_v try_v by_o their_o peer_n command_v the_o bishop_n of_o those_o country_n to_o assemble_v together_o in_o counsel_n at_o cesaria_n in_o syria_n to_o hear_v the_o matter_n of_o athanasius_n whither_o when_o athanasius_n come_v not_o because_o he_o think_v that_o see_v most_o that_o be_v assemble_v be_v his_o enemy_n he_o shall_v find_v no_o justice_n there_o then_o they_o have_v get_v more_o pretence_n of_o slander_n accuse_v he_o unto_o the_o emperor_n of_o audaciousness_n and_o tyranny_n see_v how_o it_o be_v account_v for_o a_o audacious_a part_n and_o rebellious_a for_o a_o patriarch_n not_o to_o appear_v where_o the_o emperor_n have_v command_v he_o neither_o do_v there_o hope_n deceive_v they_o for_o then_o the_o emperor_n be_v exasperate_v do_v in_o letter_n unto_o athanasius_n both_o declare_v his_o displeasure_n and_o also_o command_v he_o to_o appear_v at_o tyrus_n for_o there_o shall_v be_v hold_v a_o counsel_n of_o bishop_n socrates_n report_n that_o he_o threaten_v athanasius_n that_o if_o he_o will_v not_o go_v of_o himself_o he_o shall_v be_v fetch_v by_o force_n he_o also_o write_v unto_o the_o counsel_n at_o tiru●_n in_o which_o letter_n theodoretus_n have_v these_o word_n i_o have_v send_v unto_o you_o dionysius_n one_o that_o have_v be_v consul_n for_o to_o be_v precedent_n of_o the_o assembly_n that_o if_o any_o man_n which_o i_o think_v will_v not_o happen_v now_o all_o little_a regard_v you_o commandment_n shall_v not_o be_v there_o that_o there_o may_v be_v one_o hence_o from_o we_o that_o by_o imperial_a commandment_n may_v banish_v he_o and_o teach_v he_o mark_n well_o these_o word_n that_o he_o must_v not_o disobey_v the_o order_n that_o the_o king_n have_v appoint_v for_o the_o try_v of_o a_o truth_n but_o when_o athanasius_n who_o singular_o well_o acquit_v himself_o can_v yet_o obtain_v no_o justice_n there_o secret_o flee_v unto_o the_o emperor_n to_o constantinople_n and_o put_v up_o a_o appeal_n unto_o he_o constantine_n thereupon_o command_v all_o the_o bishop_n of_o the_o counsel_n to_o appear_v before_o he_o at_o constantinople_n with_o all_o speed_n the_o tenor_n of_o the_o mandate_n socrotes_n set_v down_o thus_o that_o all_o you_o that_o hold_v the_o counsel_n at_o tyrus_n to_o immediate_o hasten_v to_o appear_v before_o we_o for_o to_o show_v by_o deed_n the_o sincerity_n and_o uprightness_n of_o your_o judgement_n before_o i_o that_o be_v to_o wit_v he_o who_o not_o you_o yourselves_o shall_v deny_v to_o be_v the_o proper_a minister_n of_o god_n from_o what_o power_n come_v this_o commandment_n to_o a_o counsel_n to_o appare_fw-la before_o the_o emperor_n and_o to_o render_v a_o reason_n unto_o he_o of_o their_o judgement_n as_o unto_o the_o chief_a minister_n and_o officer_n of_o god_n but_o to_o proceed_v with_o our_o history_n when_o the_o bishop_n be_v come_v to_o constantinople_n they_o for_o fear_n of_o assure_a conviction_n give_v over_o their_o old_a slander_n and_o charge_v athanasius_n with_o a_o new_a lie_n that_o he_o shall_v say_v unto_o four_o bishop_n that_o he_o will_v let_v the_o come_n of_o corn_n from_o alexandria_n unto_o constantinople_n the_o which_o the_o emperor_n over_o light_o believe_v banish_a athanasius_n into_o trier_n in_o germany_n where_o be_v now_o the_o pope_n to_o depose_v the_o emperor_n for_o banish_v wrongful_o the_o great_a patriarch_n of_o the_o east_n this_o be_v worse_a than_o the_o emprison_n of_o the_o bishop_n of_o apamea_n by_o the_o french_a king_n for_o give_v he_o ill_a language_n but_o to_o return_v to_o our_o matter_n socrates_n do_v write_v that_o athanasius_n his_o first_o trouble_n begin_v because_o he_o will_v not_o receive_v into_o the_o church_n arrius_n who_o the_o emperor_n do_v now_o take_v for_o a_o penitent_a and_o honest_a man_n whereupon_o he_o thus_o write_v unto_o athanasius_n see_v that_o you_o do_v now_o understande_v the_o tenor_n of_o the_o
the_o service_n of_o their_o lord_n and_o not_o prescribe_v law_n therein_o unto_o all_o other_o not_o subject_a unto_o he_o no_o more_o than_o the_o queen_n of_o england_n can_v enact_v that_o if_o the_o king_n of_o spain_n shall_v do_v this_o and_o this_o that_o then_o he_o shall_v forfeit_v his_o crown_n realm_n no_o law_n of_o the_o church_n touch_v temporalty_n ever_o allow_v in_o this_o realm_n or_o the_o king_n of_o france_n make_v a_o edict_n that_o if_o any_o lord_n in_o england_n shall_v commit_v such_o and_o such_o fault_n that_o then_o he_o shall_v forfitte_n all_o his_o property_n over_o his_o bondman_n and_o they_o to_o be_v enfranchise_v and_o therefore_o because_o the_o prince_n of_o this_o realm_n do_v never_o acknowledge_v themselves_o vassal_n unto_o the_o pope_n nor_o the_o see_v of_o rome_n nor_o never_o agnise_v he_o for_o their_o sovereign_n in_o temporality_n they_o do_v never_o hear_v when_o the_o pope_n authority_n be_v great_a administer_v justice_n and_o adjudge_v secular_a cause_n here_o according_a to_o the_o pope_n decree_n and_o canon_n of_o the_o counsel_n but_o always_o according_a to_o the_o law_n costome_n and_o statute_n of_o the_o realm_n and_o in_o those_o cause_v the_o canon_n law_n have_v no_o authority_n and_o force_v in_o this_o land_n this_o be_v so_o often_o affirm_v by_o the_o author_n of_o the_o learned_a book_n call_v the_o doctor_n and_o student_n who_o as_o he_o be_v a_o great_a lawyer_n so_o be_v he_o also_o a_o good_a divine_a and_o devout_a catholic_a that_o it_o wear_v tedious_a to_o rehearse_v they_o all_o in_o the_o xliiii_o chapter_n of_o thou_o second_o book_n thus_o he_o write_v for_o the_o ordinary_a no_o yet_o the_o party_n himself_o have_v any_o authority_n to_o bind_v any_o inheritance_n by_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o spiritual_a law_n how_o then_o can_v they_o bind_v the_o inheritance_n of_o the_o crown_n and_o again_o in_o the_o same_o chapter_n and_o therefore_o it_o be_v somewhat_o to_o be_v meruel_v that_o ordinary_n will_v admit_v such_o land_n for_o a_o title_n etc._n etc._n without_o know_v how_o the_o common_a law_n will_v serve_v therein_o for_o of_o mere_a right_n all_o inheritance_n within_o this_o realm_n ought_v to_o be_v order_v by_o the_o king_n law_n also_o in_o the_o xxxvi_o chapter_n of_o the_o second_o book_n the_o doctor_n of_o divinity_n say_v yet_o i_o think_v always_o that_o the_o title_n of_o the_o lapse_n in_o such_o case_n be_v give_v by_o the_o law_n of_o the_o church_n and_o not_o by_o the_o temporal_a law_n and_o therefore_o it_o force_v but_o little_a what_o the_o temporal_a law_n will_v in_o it_o as_o i_o seem_v whereunto_o the_o author_n answer_v thus_o under_o the_o name_n of_o the_o student_n of_o law_n in_o such_o country_n where_o the_o pope_n have_v power_n to_o determine_v the_o right_n of_o temporal_a thing_n i_o think_v it_o be_v as_o thou_o say_v but_o in_o this_o realm_n it_o be_v not_o so_o and_o the_o right_n of_o presentment_n be_v a_o temporal_a thing_n and_o a_o temporal_a inheritance_n and_o therefore_o i_o do_v think_v it_o belong_v to_o the_o king_n law_n to_o determine_v and_o also_o to_o make_v law_n who_o shall_v present_v after_o the_o six_o month_n aswell_o as_o before_o so_o that_o the_o title_n of_o ability_n or_o none_o ability_n be_v not_o therefore_o take_v from_o the_o ordinary_n and_o in_o like_a wise_a it_o be_v of_o avoidance_n of_o benefice_n that_o be_v to_o say_v that_o it_o shall_v be_v judge_v by_o the_o king_n law_n when_o a_o benefice_n shall_v be_v say_v void_v and_o when_o not_o and_o not_o by_o the_o law_n of_o the_o church_n and_o shall_v the_o law_n of_o the_o church_n determine_v when_o the_o crown_n be_v void_a as_o when_o a_o parson_n be_v make_v a_o bishop_n or_o accept_v another_o benefice_n without_o licence_n or_o resign_v or_o be_v deprive_v in_o these_o cause_v the_o common_a law_n say_v that_o the_o benefice_n be_v void_a and_o so_o they_o shall_v be_v though_o the_o church_n have_v make_v a_o law_n to_o the_o contrary_n and_o so_o if_o the_o pope_n shall_v have_v any_o title_n in_o this_o case_n to_o present_v it_o shall_v be_v by_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n and_o if_o he_o shall_v have_v title_n to_o present_v unto_o the_o crown_n shall_v it_o not_o be_v by_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n and_o i_o have_v not_o see_v ne_o hear_v that_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n have_v give_v any_o title_n to_o the_o pope_n to_o determine_v any_o temporal_a thing_n that_o may_v be_v lawful_o determine_v by_o the_o king_n court_n no●_n y●●_n that_o he_o may_v depose_v the_o king_n and_o give_v his_o kingdom_n unto_o any_o foreigner_n but_o because_o no_o man_n shall_v repute_v this_o lawyer_n for_o a_o lollard_n and_o enemy_n unto_o the_o pope_n see_v what_o immediate_o follow_v doctor_n it_o seem_v by_o the_o reason_n that_o thou_o have_v make_v now_o that_o thou_o prefer_v the_o king_n authority_n in_o presentment_n before_o the_o pope_n and_o that_o i_o think_v shall_v not_o stand_v with_o the_o law_n of_o god_n since_o the_o pope_n be_v the_o vicar_n general_a under_o god._n student_n that_o i_o have_v say_v proove_v nor_o for_o the_o high_a preferment_n in_o presentmente_n be_v to_o have_v authority_n to_o examine_v the_o ability_n of_o the_o person_n that_o be_v present_v for_o if_o the_o present_v be_v able_a it_o suffice_v to_o the_o discharge_n of_o the_o ordinary_a by_o whomesoever_o he_o be_v present_v &_o that_o authority_n be_v not_o deny_v by_o the_o law_n of_o the_o realm_n to_o belong_v always_o to_o the_o spiritual_a jurisdiction_n thus_o see_v the_o author_n of_o the_o doctor_n and_o the_o student_n who_o some_o suppose_v to_o be_v saint_n germany_n be_v prove_v to_o be_v no_o partial_a man_n against_o the_o pope_n but_o only_o a_o learned_a lawyer_n that_o set_v down_o upright_o to_o the_o satisfaction_n of_o man_n conscience_n what_o right_o every_o man_n have_v and_o declare_v the_o common_a opinion_n of_o his_o time_n when_o the_o pope_n power_n be_v in_o the_o prime_n we_o will_v rehearse_v yet_o more_o out_o of_o he_o to_o the_o confirmation_n of_o you_o our_o catholic_a countryman_n who_o do_v open_o profess_v that_o you_o will_v grant_v her_o majesty_n as_o much_o and_o as_o great_a authority_n as_o any_o of_o her_o ancestor_n before_o her_o father_n have_v since_o the_o conquest_n yea_o or_o since_o they_o embrace_v the_o faith_n of_o christ_n in_o the_o xlvii_o chapter_n of_o the_o second_o book_n he_o say_v that_o although_o by_o the_o canon_n law_n the_o pope_n ought_v to_o present_v to_o all_o benefice●_n or_o dignity_n the_o incumbent_n whereof_o die_v at_o rome_n or_o within_o two_o day_n ●ourney_n thereof_o yet_o he_o say_v that_o it_o hold_v not_o 〈◊〉_d this_o realm_n because_o by_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n the_o king_n ought_v according_a to_o the_o ancient_a right_n of_o his_o crown_n to_o present_v of_o all_o his_o advowson_n that_o be_v of_o his_o patronage_n and_o in_o likewise_o other_o patron_n of_o benefice_n of_o their_o presentment_n and_o the_o plea_n of_o the_o right_n of_o presentment_n of_o benefice_n be_v within_o this_o realm_n belong_v to_o the_o king_n and_o his_o crown_n and_o these_o title_n can_v not_o be_v take_v from_o the_o king_n and_o his_o subject_n but_o by_o their_o assent_n and_o so_o the_o law_n that_o be_v make_v therein_o to_o put_v away_o that_o title_n bind_v not_o in_o this_o realm_n then_o may_v i_o reason_n of_o a_o strong_a that_o the_o king_n title_n to_o the_o crown_n can_v not_o be_v take_v away_o without_o his_o consent_n and_o so_o the_o law_n that_o be_v make_v therein_o by_o the_o church_n to_o put_v away_o that_o title_n bind_v not_o in_o this_o realm_n but_o to_o return_v again_o unto_o presentment_n of_o benefice_n who_o know_v not_o the_o terrible_a statute_n of_o praemunire_n make_v in_o the_o reign_n of_o edward_n the_o three_o against_o all_o such_o as_o shall_v provide_v english_a benefice_n or_o spiritual_a dignity_n from_o rome_n or_o purchase_v they_o from_o the_o pope_n and_o also_o against_o all_o attorney_n and_o agent_n in_o that_o matter_n against_o the_o which_o statute_n the_o pope_n never_o spurn_v but_o suffer_v it_o say_v saint_n germany_n and_o it_o have_v always_o be_v use_v in_o this_o realm_n with-without_a resistance_n yea_o and_o in_o the_o statute_n make_v against_o the_o provision_n and_o translation_n of_o byshoppe_n by_o the_o pope_n make_v in_o the_o xvi_o year_n of_o the_o reign_n of_o richard_n the_o second_o the_o vi_o chapter_n we_o find_v in_o those_o word_n the_o cause_n of_o the_o make_n of_o the_o statute_n lest_o the_o crown_n of_o this_o realm_n which_o be_v immediate_o subject_a to_o god_n and_o to_o none_o other_o