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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	believe_v	prove_v	scripture_n	3,079	5	6.9180	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A31340	A relation of some of the most material matters that passed in a publick dispute at Thriploe in Cambridgeshire the 15th day of the 2d month 1676 between Francis Holdcraft and Joseph Odde his assistant, both Presbyterian priests, on the one party, and Samuel Cater with some others of the Friends of truth called Quakers	Cater, Samuel, d. 1711.; Holcroft, Francis, 1629?-1693.; Odde, Joseph.; Webb, John, 17th cent.; Baker, Jacob.	1676 (1676)	Wing C1488; ESTC R29185	7,064	9

work as this is but to me and the rest of my Friends he spake revilingly and told us we were a Generation of Vipers and that they would prove us so to be before they went from thence F. H. Do you own the Man Christ Jesus body flesh and bone to be at the Right Hand of his Father in the Highest Heaven yonder yonder above the Stars pointing upward with his Hands and Eyes S. C. The True Christ I own and believe in the same that the Prophet prophecied of and the Apostles Preached Salvation in his name and am ready to render a reason of the hope that is in me when it is my place so to do but Francis it is not thy business to Catechise me at this time but to prove that we deny the True Christ this thou hast promised to do and I expect thou shouldst do it or else acknowledge thy error F. H. I said as much you dare not own the True Christ if you do say you do J. O. There hold him there S. C. The True Christ I own but thy Carnal Imaginations of him I deny but this I say we are upon the defensive part thou hast said we deny Christ it is on thy part to prove it F. H. Urged the like question again but never took in hand nor went about to prove what he had promised S. C. To the people I am not ashamed nor afraid to confess my Faith and belief concerning Jesus Christ as this man would suggest into our minds and make you believe but the reason yet why I have not done it is because it 's not my business at this time we are accused by this man to deny Christ and he saith he will prove it it is his place so to do if he can and his asking me whether I own Christ implys as much as this that he does not know whether we own him or deny him so that he hath done unjustly by us and unwisely by himself in going to report that we deny the True Christ behind our backs and now we call him in question before our faces Instead of proving of it he asks us whether we own him or deny him which question would have been more seasonable and more honest to have been asked us before he had thus openly reproached us and slandered us for it appears he hath said that of us which he cannot prove and therefore must return again upon himself as the raiser or at least maintainer of these false reports and he must till he can clear himself of these lyes and slanders which he so frequently vends out of his mouth and casts upon the Innocent be numbred amongst the Lyers for the Lake who are in the Steps which the Prophet speaks of report and we will report it F. H. Still balled and call'd out whether I owned the True Christ S. C. For the sake of the people that are here I do say that the same Lord Jesus Christ which the Scriptures Testifie of I believe in and expect Salvation by and in no other that is to say the Christ of God that was born of the Virgin Mary and was Crucified by the High-Priests and envious ones and was raised by the power of God and Ascended far above all Heavens and is at the Right Hand of God and is also knocking at every ones door for an entrance into their Hearts that he might dwell in and amongst them F. H. Then cryed out to the people this is a Cheat this is to blind the people S. C. How is it a Cheat I speak as I do believe and my words are according to the Scripture F. H. You do not believe as you say S. C. How dost thou know I do not believe as I say F. H. I can prove out of the Quakers Books that you do not believe as you say S. C. Shew us that Book of ours that says we deny the True Christ But none he could shew us S. C. I say again the same Jesus in whose name the Lame Man was made whole that Peter and John bare Testimony to before them that Crucified him in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth doth this man stand before you whole this day This is the Stone that is set at naught by you Builders and is now become the head of the Corner I say in this Christ I with the rest of my Brethren believe and hope for Salvation and in no other name or thing whotsoever Then there was one called to us that we might have some discourse concerning Election and Reprobation for these Men had declared before the people that some Children were in a state of Damnation before they were born about which some people were dissatisfied that heard them Then Joseph Odde desired to take the matter in hand J. O. spake to this purpose you do not understand neither the righteousness nor the sin as it is in Gods account S. C. Wherein do we not understand J. O. Do you not acknowledge that all men fell in Adam S. C. I do acknowledge according to the Scriptures in Adam all sinned which was and is the fall from God J. O. This Adam represents all men so that in him all are included as if there were but one in all S. C. The Apostle says As was the offence so also was the free gift and as in Adam all dyed so in Christ all comes to be made alive again Rom. 5. 18. J. O. All fell in Adam and you have granted that all sinned in him and therefore Children while they are in the Womb before they are born so soon as they have life and are a Living Soul they are guilty of Original sin and are Vessels of Wrath and for destruction S. C. I 'le prove this to be false Doctrine and contrary to the mind and will of God revealed in the Scriptures of Truth for the Lord said by the Prophet Ezekiel 18. Read from the beginning onward that Proverb shall not be used in Israel saying the Fathers have eaten sower Grapes and the Childrens Teeth are set on edge but as the Soul of the Father is mine the Soul of the Son is mine also the same Soul that sins shall die Jer. 13. 30. J. O. But death Reigned from Adam to Moses will you not grant that S. C. Yes over them that had sinned and therefore thou must prove Children to be sinners before they are born which thou and all thy Brethren can never do or else thou canst not prove them damned J. O. Death Reigned from Adam to Moses over all men and I will prove a Child a Man before it is born and therefore guilty of sin before it is born S. C. Prove that if thou canst People I desire you all to be still and let us hear how Joseph Odde will prove a Child a Man before it is born by plain Scripture for no other proof we will accept of J. O. Christ says A Woman hath sorrow because her hour is come but when she is

delivered she remembers no more her pain for joy that a Man is born into the World S. C. This is no proof for Christ does not say that it was a Man before it was born F. H. Children are sinners before they are born for David says I was shapen in iniquity and in sin hath my Mother Conceived me S. C. Whether was the sin in the Mother or in the Child for Christ speaks of the state of a little Child to be happy for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven and you say some Children are for Hell and Destruction which is a damnable Doctrine and altogether contrary to the Scriptures and to the mind of God revealed therein which says God would have all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth and therefore made none for destruction but Mans destruction is of himself for want of receiving and obeying of Christ the Son of his Love who is come a Light into the World that all Men through him might believe John 1. 7. F. H. There is none shall be saved but such as are elected S. C. You are strangers to that election which hold that God hath made one man for Salvation and another for destruction as they are the Workmanship of his own Hands But Francis I ask thee this question Whether thou thy self be one of these elect thou speakest of F. H. Yes I am S. C. And how camest thou to be so F. H. By the free Grace of God S. C. And doth not this same Grace appear unto all men for the saving and electing of all as it doth unto thee F. H. No I deny that S. C. I 'le prove by the Scripture that it does People look in your Bibles and look into Titus 2. 11. and you may read it as I say F. H. I will Read it my self S. C. Do so F. H. Read thus The Grace of God that brought Salvation hath appeared unto Men. S. C. Thou Readst wrong and takes from the Scripture thou leavest out the word All Read it as it is in thy own Book F. H. I Read it as it is in the Greek for it is not so in the Greek as it is in our Books An indifferent person standing by called unto him and told him Francis what do you bring your Bible hither for if it be wrong translated S. C. We have no reason to go from the plain words of Scripture to believe thee for we believe the Scripture speaks as true in this as in any other things that it declares of and further we understand the things of God in the Language in which we were born and we would not be so shuffled off or baffled out of our belief of the truth of the Scriptures to believe what thou or any man says who say they are not true and I told him then I believed he did say that which was not true of the Greek Copies and as I then said so I have since found it to be for since I desired some that understood the Greek and Latine Tongues and the word All Men which he would not read and impudently said it was not in the Greek which you may here read Apparuit enim gratia Dei salvatoris nostri omnibus hominibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Whereby all men may see this mans deceit who makes lyes his refuge and under falshood hides himself but in the light he is seen and by the Children of the light made manifest and his unfruitful works of darkness detected and his Religion seen to be vain who does not bridle his Tongue from lying and slandering of the Innocent which is known to have been his practice these several years and yet so continues whereby he renders evil towards us for good who suffered him to shelter himself under us to get out of prison F. H. Pretended to shake the dust off his feet and went his way S. C. Deceit if thou goest away remember that thou hast not yet proved that we are such as thou hast said we are and I warn thee to cease from railing against us any more and this further I have to offer thee and Joseph Odde I would have you both fit down and hear for I have somthing upon me to declare to the people and I shall open my heart freely before you and them and speak as to the things we have been speaking of and if I speak any thing contrary to Scripture you shall have your liberty by the Scripture to reprove me but they hastened away with railing words in their mouths and we continued some time together in which I cleared my Conscience to all that were there present and then we parted to our places in peace having committed our Testimony unto the Witness of God in every ones Conscience which is the equal measure of what was said and done that day And thus we have given an account in part of that days proceedings for the satisfying of all that desire to know the Truth of the matter for the stopping of all false reports which envious persons may spread abroad the which we hear these men are not wanting in otherwise we could have been contented to have been silent and to have left it without further publication to the Witness of God in the Consciences of those who heard us that day who are Friends to all men and in that we generally desire their Everlasting Peace and Rest with God in the Kingdom of his Dear Son S. Cater J. Webb J. B.