Selected quad for the lemma: book_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	believe_v	church_n	word_n	2,694	5	4.5532	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20940	A conference held at Paris betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite, and Doctor Du Moulin seconded by the Lady of Salignac. Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to Gontier his letter to the King concerning the subiect of this conference. By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie, and minister of the Word of God in the church of Paris. Translated according to the French copie printed in Paris.; Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier. English	Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.; Gontery, Jean, 1562-1616. aut	1615 (1615)	STC 7319; ESTC S111071	14,986	30

if his royall vertues were not aboue al enuie and out of the danger of forgetfulnesse they must needs lose some of their lustre by being mixt with the impurenesse of their pamphlets as pearles that are wrapt in smoake neither doth he like of these seditious preachers which now preach in their Sermons before his Maiestie that we hate dominion set al kind of gouernment at nought for his Maiestie is not ignorant that this is so farre from being true that on the contrary this is the principall cause for which we are hated to wit because wee haue not taken on oath of allegeance to anie other then to the King because we hold that the Pope cannot giue or take away realmes nor dispense with subiects for the oath of fealty because wee teach that he should not haue heere anie other lawes any other iudges any other prisons then those of the King because that we shew that his realme is spoiled of siluer which passeth ouer into Italy for the paiment of first fruits dispensations absolutions matrimoniall contracts c. And that cousenage and tyrannie are established vnder the shew of religion Finallie because we complaine that the Pope makes Kings kisse his feete and tramples on their Crownes would wee but sticke to the Pope in these things hee would easilie dispense with vs for our beleefe in the Gospell or by a speciall priuiledge would permit vs to beleeue thereon in the things which were not preiudiciall to his profit Is there any one that can accuse the reformed Churches of rebellion or attempting ought against our Kings or of conspiring to blow them vp with gun-powder and yet to dare to preach this in the presence of his Maiesty which reproach the onely consideration and manie proofes that he hath had of our fidelitie doe sufficiently confute For that the Iesuites goe about to perswade him that we are rebellious or ill-minded towards him is all one as if Caiphas should defend Iesus Christ against his Apostles or as if Catiline should accuse Cicero of sedition At the end of Master Gontiers Epistle there is a discourse annexed subscribed with the name of Corbozon Mount-gommeri which was not present at the conference but saies that he heard of it at the Vicaridge of Saint Nicholas This so honorable a name of Mount-gommeri doth vnhappily come to be written vnder so base a pamphlet and I cannot beleeue that so false and ridiculous peece of stuffe should come from vnder the handes of a Gentleman of that honor as he is without doubt some paltry Iesuite composed this writing at his pleasure which comes no more neere the truth of that which past betweene vs then Ouid his Metamorphosis doth to that of the Gospell And indeed the recitall that Master Gontier hath made of our conference in his letter to the King hath nothing like vnto this but Monsieur de Corbozon is willing to honor it in couering it vnder his name as with a cloake which will scarce euer be brought him backe againe cleane It would bee time lost to go about to confute this writing for if I should conuince the Author of absurditie Master Gontier would renounce him as one that had written vpon false information and so I should haue done as good as nothing As for the defiance and threatnings of Master Gontier we neuer yet refused vpon any occasion that was offered to enter the lists vpon iust and equall termes But this people loues to set on men in corners that they may a little after publish the contrary the more freely especially when they haue one in hand to deale withall which is alreadie conuerted and which hath promised to yeeld himselfe before the combat only they make it deferre it a little till the time they haue plotted a conference Now for to iustifie this which I say to be true Master Gontier a few daies after all this adoe ill befitting the grauitie of a Doctour will not yet let mee scapeso saying that he will enter in conference with me concerning the antiquitie of our Church and I meaning to enter the lists with him haue at this time sent him a writing of which this is the substance I maintaine that M. Gontier can not shew me in the foure first ages after Christ any Church or any man which held the same religion as the Church of Rome doth at this day and for this purpose 1 He should shew me any ancient Church that celebrated the Communion without Communicants as they do ordinarily in the Church of Rome 2 That he should shew me that any ancient Church did barre the people of the Communion of the cup. 3 Or that in any ancient Church the common seruice was read in a tongue which the people vnderstood not 4 Or that any ancient Church did forbid the people to read the holy Scriptures as it is by no meanes permitted without a speciall priuiledge in the countries where the Pope is absolute Commander 5 Or that in any ancient Church there were euer made any images of God and representation of the Trinitie in stone or in painting 6 Or that in any auncient Church the people were taught to pray without vnderstanding that which they said 7 Or that any ancient Church did do seruice to the images of Creatures in kissing them in clothing them by bowing themselues downe before them and offring vp sacrifices vnto them 8 Or that any ancient Church euer beleeued that the Virgine Mary is crowned Queene of heauen and Empresse of the world as it is painted throughout all their Churches 9 Or that any ancient Church did assigne diuers offices to Saints to one ouer this Country to another ouer that to one ouer this sicknesse to another ouer that to one ouer this trade c. 10 Or that any ancient Church did euer beleeue that the Pope could giue and take away realmes and free subiects from their oath of allegeance canonize Saints dispense with vowes and promises made vnto God 11 Or that in the ancient Church the Pope by his pardons did distribute the superabundant satisfactions of the Saints for the remission of the punishment of the sinnes of others 12 Or that the Pope did then lay his pardons on one Church and not on another on one village and not on another and this sometimes for one hundred and two hundred yeares of true pardon 13 Or that the ancient Church did beleeue a Lymbus of little infants 14 Or that the ancient Church did euer adore the host which the Priest holds with diuine worship and that this is the cause why the Priest doth vse to hold vp the host in the Masse 15 Or that the bookes of the Machabees were held for Canonicall in the ancient Church 16 Or that the ancient Church did beleeue that the Bishop of Rome could not erre in the faith 17 Or that the ancient Church did beleeue that Iesus Christ by his death and suffering did indeed discharge vs from the punishment of sinne before baptisme but as for the punishment of sinne committed after baptisme he hath changed it from eternall vnto temporall and that it lies vs vpon to satisfie the iustice of God for this That Master Gontier should tell vs if in these points he will admit of the Fathers for iudges we will aske but halfe a douzen cleare passages vpon euery point FINIS * He did the like at Amiens against Monsieur Hucher being troubled to answer he sent to fetch his concordance

vnawares then when I thought of nothing lesse then conferring with him but hee came prepared and furnished with bookes hauing agreed on this conference before hand with the Ladies I am also giuen to vnderstand by the report of men worthy of credit that a few daies after the conference Gontier dining with my Lord the Prince of Conde and my Lord the Duke of Espernon that the Prince askt Gontier as concerning this matter telling him there went a speech abroad thereof which tended little to his praise and that the sayd Iesuite imputed his little resistance to the great noise there was made but especially to the earnest entreatie of an aduocate yet there was no aduocate nor anie stirre but onelie towards the latter end the three first houres being past ouer with a great silence euerie one looking that Master Gontier should speake whilst hee did nothing but turne the leaues of his Concordance and made as though he did write Now to iustifie this which I speake to bee true I call the assistants for witnesses which sate there from the beginning to the end and God knowes that in the discourse which I haue published I haue dealt as faithfully as I cold possible hauing shew'd it ready writen to those which were present at it to the end that if I had forgotten my selfe in any thing they should correct what was amisse yea I haue yet some part of Mr. Gontiers arguments written with his owne hand of the which hee doth not so much as repeat one word in his letter wherein he reduces our conference to a douzen lines not for breuities sake for he breakes out into other vnprofitable discourses but by an apparant shift for in our conference there were two points aboue others that we chiefely handled one whether Bishops were authorized from God to establish Sacrificers for to sacrifice Iesus Christ the other whether it could possibly be prooued that Iesus Christ did offer vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist because that although his bloud were really shedde yet it is not a sacrifice if the bloud be not offered vnto God These two points beeing of such importance how comes it to passe that Mr. Gontier writing to the King doth not satisfie them nor so much as mention a word of them at all did he thinke his Maiesty vnworthy to be throughly informed in the truth of the matter or why doth he frustrate the people of this their expectation And if in the conference hee had not a word to speake heereupon why doth he not yet repaire his credit heerein by his writings vpon farther studie why is he so loth to speake anie more of the passage in Saint Cyprian which is in the 9. Epist of the first booke alleadged by my Ladie Baronnesse of Salignac doth hee not perceiue by this that he hath spoken nothing worth the considering but that a ladie hath spoken that which deserues to be weighed Nay he shewes that he neuer read the place seeing that he produceth it so disguised and which is more saies in the margent of his booke that this is the 66. chapter when Saint Cyprians Epistles are not distinguished by chapters doubtlesse my Ladie of Salignac who hath ten times more learning for a Ladie then he for a Doctor could haue taken him vp for this Saint Cyprian indeed speaks in the place alleadged of alters and sacrifices but by sacrifices he vnderstands the presents which the people offered on the table of which one part was laid aside for the celebration of the Eucharist wherefore in his Sermon of almes he takes vp the rich men which men which came to receiue without offering anie sacrifice Doest thou come saith he to the Lords Table without a sacrifice doest thou take part of the sacrifice which the poore hath offered and in the same ninth Epistle in the honour of the brethren which offer vp offrings as if they did receiue the tithes of fruits Let them not depart from the Altar and sacrifices As concerning prayer for the dead which began to be in vse in the time of Tertullian and of which Saint Cypryan speakes in this Epistle this is a praier which at this daie the Church of Rome doth allowe of no more then wee seeing that then they praied for the Saints and Martyrs and that it shall neuer bee found that any one praied for the deliuerie of soules out of purgatorie but onely for the enfranchisement of soules kept in prison and sleeping in the bosome of peace of which you haue a feeling in your masse where the Priest praies in this manner for the dead Lord thinke on thy seruants which sleepe in the bosome of peace Amongst the number of which the ancient Church doth reckon the Saints who also as they thought in the next age to St. Cyprian should bee purged by fire in the last day of iudgement not exempting so much as the virgin Mary herselfe as wee haue shewed by a great number of proofes in the last chapter of a booke entituled The waters of Silo. Neuerthelesse Master Goutier least hee should haue nothing at all to say doth accuse mee for denying our owne Bible How so because saith hee that when he did alleadge these words vnto me which is shed for vs I said this was to be vnderstood in the future A ridiculous calumnie Rather on the contrary I say that our Bible doth turne the words more faithfully then that of the Church of Rome seeing that it is in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is shed and not shall bee shed as the Bible of the Church of Rome and the masse haue it But it is one thing to aske what is the best translation of the words of Iesus Christ another thing to aske what is the meaning of the words for our translation onely is true but the Romish Bible doth expound the meaning and intention of Iesus Christ which is to promise that his bloud shall be shed for vs on the crosse failing in the turning but not in the drift of his words as if when Iesus Christ saith Ioh. 10. ver 15. I lay downe my life for my sheepe one should translate it thus I will lay downe or leaue my life hee indeed should lay downe the true meaning of his words which although it were true yet ought it not to be inserted in the text Let this suffice for an answer to Master Gontiers letters letters without sinewes without ioynts puft vp with a childishly affected kinde of swelling which we do therfore here pricke to the end we might bring it downe Had he no bodie to present them to but his Maiestie The Pagans in their sacrifices did neuer offer an Ape vnto their gods but these men presume to offer apish to yes to so great a Prince which holds the place of God among vs who being wonderfull in his patience since he suffereth himselfe to be thus serued is no lesse wonderfull in the clearenesse of his iudgement For hee knowes well that