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A72176 A dialogue bewteene a papist and Protestant applied to the capacity of the vnlearned. Made by G. Gifford, preacher in the towne of Maldon. Seene and allowed according to the order appointed. Gifford, George, d. 1620. 1599 (1599) STC 11849.5; ESTC S125231 92,498 190

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he is God is there any other there which beareth this likenes Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God Yea sir but there was none of the wicked Emperors which did sit in the tēple of God Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings Emperors which sitteth in the Temple of God seduceth by myracles But perhaps he shall arise at Rome hereafter and is not yet come Surely then let vs neuer looke for him if we think there shal arise one at Rome which shall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope or doe more fained myracles and lying wonders then he hath Moreouer tell me this is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation Reuel 17. where the Angel doth shew the mistery of the woman which he calleth the great whore and of the beast which beareth her that wil not by by confesse that séeing Rome is that whore borne vp with the scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist for he is one of the heads of the beast The heads of the beast being seuen are saith the Angel seuen Kings where should they reign At Rome Fiue saith he are fallen one is another is to come Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome whereof it is wel knowen fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote One was thē standing which was the Empire And the seuenth or last should shortly follow Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth last of these kings if it be not the Pope O ye foolish Papists haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon which is the great whore so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist And wil ye denie the Pope to be the beast Why they be ioined together Shew vs some other vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist We now by that which you haue granted and confessed must not looke for him elswhere but at Rome vntill ye can shew vs some other there we sée none so like him as the Popes holines If ye can shew any other put men out of doubt Pa. Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon Where find ye any such thing It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie not because Antichrist should reigne there Againe where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome as you say seuen kinds of gouernment fiue were fallen one was which is the Empyre one was to come which say you must needs be the Pope for hee hath reigned in the last place Yea but ye sayd fiue were fallen to giue place to the sixt should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth How then is your interpretation true seeing the Empire hath stood euer since Pro. Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vpon the beast Is not the whore by you confessed to be Rome will ye haue the beast to beare her and not to be at the same place the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit and killeth the saints Reuel 11. Where shal their bodies lie in the stréets doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt afterward in the seuentéenth chapt he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth is it not all one beast which he speaketh of al one citie doth it not follow that where he shall kill there be shal raigne and as for the other thing which ye take exception against I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name and was not quite cast down neuertheles it was not indéede an empire when the Emperors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope as to haue him tread in their necke and to hold his stirrops Pa. If the Pope were Antichrist as you would make men beleeue then what became of the Church all that while when men beleeued in him when he raigned you confesse a thousand yeres or there about since the Bishop of Rome had the soueraignty Would God forsake his Church a thousand yeres or eight hundreth yeeres is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres and suffer to perish O how hard harted are you how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors how vnkind children so to iudge of the fathers let them beleeue ye that will ye be al heretikes I will keepe me to the ancient faith Pro. Now ye returne to your old fortresse againe yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce because they are ignorant Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them that ye can make them euen wéepe again But when ye come among such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word and know the state of the Church they laugh at your follie This is a great question what became of that Church we answere as the scripture telleth vs Reue. 17. the beast the dragon did persecute murther the seruants of God The whore of Babylon was drunken with the blood of the saints Reuel 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes God did neuer forsake his Church one day much lesse a thousand or 8. hundreth yéeres it doth not follow that because Antichrist was exalted in the church therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth or a thousand yeres yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate nothing so corrupted as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of Antichrist and yet euen in this space he could neuer vtterly destroy the Church for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies None but those which worshipped the beast and wondered after the beast and receiued the marke of the beast whose names were not written in the booke of life We reuerence our godly fathers shew no vnkindnesse towards them Pa. I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned and the trueth suppressed Where was the Church for this space this is a long time will ye condemne all the world for the
A Dialogue bewteene a Papist and Protestant applied to the capacity of the vnlearned Made by G. Gifford Preacher in the Towne of Maldon Seene and allowed according to the order appointed Imprinted at London by Richard Field and Felix Kingstone 1599. To the right Honorable and his very good Lord Thomas Earle of Sussex Vicount Fitzwater and Lord Egremont and Burnell Knight of the most Honorable order of the Garter Captaine of all the Queenes Ma. Gentlemen Pencioners Gentlemen at armes Chiefe Iustice Iustice in Oyer of all her Ma. Forrests Parkes Chases warrens by South Trent and L. Chamberlaine to her Highnesse grace peace in our Sauiour Christ MAny in these dayes with great learning haue encountred the Papists strongly confuted their errours It may be maruelled therefore what should make me so bold as to attempt any such matter after so great clearkes being farre vnable to come nigh that which they haue attayned I answere in mine owne defence that my trauell is not to this ende as though I would make pretence of equall learning with those but rather to put the stone and sling into the hands of litle Dauid to conquer great Goliah withall when as he is not able to weld the weighty armour of Saul The battell is hot fierce euery where betweene Israell the vncircumcised Philistines Great armor weapons are prepared for the souldiers wherewith to arme and defend themselues yet for the most part not such as do fit young Dauid For whereas sundry men of fame haue shewed deepe skill in setting foorth their bookes to confute the Papists full of learning out of the ancient Doctors Councels Hystoriographers and others it doth not so well serue the turne of the simple vnlearned man neither can he defend himselfe therewith because it is beyond his reach This is the thing which hath moued me to write somewhat of these matters applying my selfe to the capacitie of the vnlearned dealing onely out of the word of God which lyeth open vnto them as their Armorie This also hath caused me to deale in those points which do most commonly trouble them omitting the great points in controuersie perswaded that I performe a duty therein For like as when an house is on fire the weake which is not able to throw a bucket of water to the top of the roofe may yet by no meanes be excused if he stand and looke on because he may do somewhat in the lower parts of the walles Euen so I thinke my selfe not discharged for this that I am not of ability for to set foorth any thing which may reach so high as to encounter with the principall aduersaries and to further the learned seeing I may profit the simpler sort for whose sakes and in respect of whom I haue taken this trauel I present this simple and poore treatise vnto your honor not as though I did esteeme it worthy to beare the name and title of so noble so honorable and so great a personage and of so high estate But onely hauing no other way or meane to signifie and shew forth a thankfull mind for that great ayde and honourable assistance which I haue receiued from your Lordship in the furtherance and maintenance of the Gospell It hath pleased the God of heauen the Lord of the whole earth to appoint me being very weake to build in the desolate places and to spreade the light of his glorious Gospell euen there where it appeareth by the abundance of iniquity that of long time Satan hath had his throne How vnwilling he is to be displaced and to giue ouer the roome vnto Christ may euidently appeare euen by this that he stirreth vp his warriers which like wild Bores would roote vp all that may be planted which with malicious intent and subtill craft conspire what mischiefe soeuer they can thrusting forth their bold instrument which with an iron face is so hardy that he dare attempt any thing which could no way be danted in his venturous attempts nor their furie qualified vntill such time as he was fallen into the hands of your honour to come to his account for his manifold misdemeanours and to receiue some wages for his trauell I trust therefore your honour will thinke the best of this my boldnesse considering it is what I am able If I could in more ample manner testifie my good will in any sort to be thankfull agreeable vnto that which of duty I owe for your great kindnesse then would I be glad But I leaue the full recompence vnto him who is able indeede to reward whatsoeuer is done for his name sake for the defence of his Gospell and succour of his litle flocke which is alwayes compassed about with so many enemies that they are able to deuour and eat it vp and yet their bellies no whit the fuller Some do wonder how it should come to passe that among vs there should be so many which being borne since the Gospell was restored in this land are so zealously addicted vnto Popery which they neuer did know and so vtter enemies vnto the Gospell which they heare but if they weigh the causes of this deadly mischiefe they will cease wondring at that and rather wonder that there be no more For how can it be so long as there be so many abuses in the ministery but that many shal stumble and loth the Gospell for from thence as it is manifest the chiefe cause of this euill doth spring True it is that our ministery doth fight against them but yet in such sort that it doth greatly increase them seeming and pretending to tread vpon those cockatrice egges for to breake them and so to destroy vtterly the viperous generation when as indeed they sit vpon them and so hatch the broodes of this euill kind and bring them forth in great plentie For behold a number cry out against Popery and proclaime vtter defiance in speech but their doings are such that for euery one which they conuert to the Gospell they cause an hundred to reuolt to be hardned in their errours or fall into flat Atheisme while many cōtrary to the profession which they made when they entred setting aside the care of soules not esteeming nor regarding what become of them studie most how to clime high to satisfie their ambitious desire of honor raking together liuings couetously greedily not caring who feede the flocke so they may come by the fleece Moreouer the doore hath bene opened also to let into the Church a rowte and swarme of such as are more like the priests of Ieroboam then ministers of the Gospell not onely vnlearned Idols which haue mouthes and speake not which being weary of their occupations and couet to liue easily to that end are entred but also riotous dicers gamsters quaffers quarrellers adulterers and such like If the matter were secret I should do amisse to make it manifest but when as it is open in the sight view