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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A42453	The papists bait or their usual method in gaining proselites answered by Charles Gataker ... ; to which is added, a letter of the Lord Viscount Falkland to the same gentleman, much to this present purpose.	Gataker, Charles, 1614 or 15-1680.; Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.	1674 (1674)	Wing G308; ESTC R9378	63,487	89

I now make a return to that part as well as to the former and indeed to the whole Question 1. Errors that endanger Salvation do not alwaies destroy it 2. God hath promised to preserve his Church from destruction but not from danger 3. All errors when they are discovered are to be rejected 4. No doctrines offered by any Church to her Children are to be received without examination 5. The Catholick Church as it signifies the whole Body of Christendome is too big to be a teacher that may be consulted and hearkened unto 6. The Church in this mans sense and explication that is an Assembly of chief Pastors in Council may teach errors endangering Salvation Arianism hath been taught in as large Assemblies of chief Pastors as the true Faith hath been 7. But because it is the design of this man that we should take the Roman Church for the Catholick I stick not to say that the Roman Church teaches her children errors that endanger the attaining of Salvation My fift Answer is excepted against for the interposition of these words so long as it continues so which looks like a condition and seem to suppose that the Catholick Church can cease to be so The words are capable of another construction viz. The Holy Catholick Church so long as it continues secured from teaching destructive errors cannot even for that reason abuse the world with forged Scriptures This was then my meaning who had no intention that my last Answer should contradict my first Let us now see what he draws from my Answer if it were Categorical and how rational his inference is For now we are come to the bottom of his project And he thinks he hath catched us so fast in his trap that either we must give him the Cause or be condemned out of our own mouths If mine Answer be says this new fashioned Logician that the Church can never ohtrude false Scripture c. then you must grant that the Catholick visible Church is infallible in the delivery of Scripture If so then is there an infallible Judg upon the earth concerning this point How rash this inference is and how incoherent the conclusion with the premises a few words will serve to discover It is acknowledged on both sides that the primitive Church which received the Scriptures was not and because Gods spirit guided and governed the Church in this important business could not be abused and mistaken in the receiving of Canonical Scripture The Catholick Church being quickly after enlarged and spred through many regions of the earth did together with the Gospel preached receive Copies of the Scriptures which had been communicated by the particular Churches to which they were directed at first unto their neighbour Churches These Scriptures were by all Churches reverenced and preserved as the Grand Charter of their Salvation and the Laws and Records of their Society as the Church was the Kingdome of Christ distinguished from the world The zeal of Christians for their Laws and their knowledg of them which were frequently read in the publick Assemblies according to an * Apostolical order to which we must add above all the Providence of Gods watching over the Church for the preservation of Scriptures being more pretious to God than to Man and as pretious to God as the world it self these being well considered may assure us that it was morally impossible that the whole Church of God should be cousened into the reception of any forged Scriptures And if the Church in following ages could not combine together to coyn counterfeit Scriptures then the Church universal could never obtrude any thing upon the world for Canonical Scripture which was not received from the Primitive Church at first But how doth it follow from hence that the Church is an Infallible Judg in this point A creditable witness is not presently an Infallible Judg. A faithful Depositary that keeps Records is not the same thing with an unerring Judg. The Tradition of the Church Universal which hath derived the Holy Scriptures from age to age is not an Act of Judicature The Nation of the Jews is at this day a credible witness of the divine Original and authority of the Old Testament at least at the first plantation of the Church Christian the Jevvish Church did preserve and deliver the Holy Scriptures intire so much at least as God thought necessary or expedient and if any book vvere lost that by being lost became unnecessary and vvas secured by Gods Providence in the conveyance of his Oracles to Christians Doth it hence follovv that the People of the Jews was a visible Infallible Judg in that point and if so then in all matters of Faith For thus the Papist proceeds If so I require some satisfactory reason says the Querist why the Church should be infallible in this and fallible in other points of Faith c. I have already shewed that the Case is not so as this man imagines therefore I am not bound to give him the satisfaction which he requires Yet for your further information I add this 1. The reception and tradition of Scriptures by the Church is a fact which God orders as expedient for the preservation of Religion 2. The certain number of the Books written by inspiration is not a point of faith necessary for every Christian to know and believe unto Salvation 3. The Catholick Church cannot err in any point of faith necessary to salvation 4. But any particular Church may believe and teach erroneous Doctrine for matter of Faith The Church of Rome which is not the sole keeper of Scripture may and doth err in several points of their Religion and doth impose upon her children uncanonical Books for Scripture and false Doctrines for matters of faith as is evident by the Canons of the Conventicle of Trent And yet it is not in the power of the Church of Rome to abuse the whole Christian world by the imposition of counterfeit Scriptures upon it I shall yet persist in my reflexion upon the Jews that I may shew that the keeping of Scriptures without forgery falsification and corruption is a thing distinct and separable from erring teaching errors The Jews cannot be denied to have been good keepers of the Books even then when they corrupted the Religion enjoyned by the Law written in those Books Never yet was any man so weak as to conclude that the Priests and Rabbies of the Jews were Infallible Judges of the Doctrine concerning the Messias even those who condemned Christ the Son of God to be guilty of blasphemy and worthy of death because they kept the Books of Moses and the Prophets There is now less reason why we should take the present Church of Rome which we evidently see to teach Doctrines and set up a worship as contrary to the Scriptures as darkness is to light to be an infallible Judge of faith upon this account because the Primitive Roman Church in communion with other Churches did

any of them I therefore answer that when any such question arose amongst the Jews they were neither to have their last refuge to the Kings of Israel or Judah nor to the State Magistrates or common people for resolution in what they were to believe but to the lawful High Priest for the time with his High Council or Synod of other chief Priests and Doctors in the Law of Moses And they were to conform their belief to what they defined and taught them so that whatsoever either the Kings or some number of inferior Tribes or some particular Priests taught practised or believed contrary to the Doctrine and definition of this Supreme Spiritual Council was to be held erroneous and those who held forth such erroneous Doctrine pertinaciously or practised publickly contrary to it were to be esteemed in their doctrine Hereticks and in their practise Nonconformists to the True Church or Separatists from it If therefore a Jew in the times mentioned in the Querie should have demanded which was then the True Visible Church wherein Salvation could be acquired the answer must have been That it was the High Priest then being and all these believers who conformed their Faith Practises and Communion to him and his high Council ut supra And all such as stood in oppositions against him and division from him were Aliens so long as they continued in that state from the True Church Now if the Querist had proved efficaciously that the High Priest with his fore named Council taught the people either Idolatry the common sin of the Jews or any other breach of Gods Law to be lawful or any error against Gods Revelations to be true or any of his Revelations to be false he had overthrown the whole fabrick of my Queries But seeing this is not yet done by him his Queries are neither an Answer nor any obstruction to mine and therefore they remain in their full vigour against him For notwithstanding all he says in his second Query which is the main force of his instance I have clearly shewed a Jew of those times which was then the True Visible Church out of which Salvation could not be had Now it is impossible to prove any such matter unless he enervate the words of our Saviour Mat. 23. 2 3. where he says That whatsoever the Scribes and Pharisees taught who had and did sit in Moses his chair that is succeeded in his Spiritual authority was to be observed and done by all the Jewish people which supposes evidently they could not teach them either error in Faith and Manners as part of Gods word for then he should have commanded to do evil and believe errors so that they were infallible in their teaching till Shiloh came And the reason why they were so infallible says our Saviour was because they sate upon Moses his chair and so governed successively the Church of God faithfully in matter of doctrine as he did in his time Upon the chair of Moses have sate the Scribes and Pharisees All therefore that they shall say unto you Observe and do it And this reason proves not only those that sate then when our Saviour spake these words but that all those who sate before them ever since the time of Moses were infallible in all divine doctrines both of Faith and Manners The third Querie is therefore thus answered That the Jewish Church understood ut supra could not teach any error as matter of Divine Faith or Religion To the fourth Querie I answer That though from the precedent Answers it followes that the Jewish Church by divine direction preserved the Holy Scriptures so entirely that it never rejected any true part of Gods written word nor received into their Canon of Gods written word any Book or Sentence which was not his word yet it followes not thence that every private person should find out every particular point of Religion by particular or express proofs out of that written word alone but that the Authority of the Jewish Church ut supra in matters controverted should interpose it self and determine the controversie Nor do the two Texts quoted in the Querie prove thus much For that Esa 8. 20. proves only this that they were neither to have recourse to Soothsayers nor to extraordinary visions but to the Law and Testament when doubts arose Now this is so far from forbidding to have recourse to the present respective Priests and Governors of the Church that the Law and Testament command expresly that recourse is to be had to them in doubtful cases Deut. 17. from the 8th to the 12th verse and Malachi 2. from the 4th to the 8th In which places the interpretation of the Law is reserved to the Priest and the disobedience to the Priests command declared to be so great a sin that it is to be punished with no less than death And for the Scriptures themselves it was so far from the Ordinance of Moses his Law that every particular or private Believer had license or opportunity or ordinary possibility to peruse them and gather from them by his sole perusal what was and what was not to be believed as private Protestants now do that the Law was only to be read to them once in Seven years Deut. 31. 10 11. and was accordingly performed by Esdras Nehem. 8. 1 2 3. And this was all we read in Scripture of the common People knowing the written word And it appears that the people were so far from undertaking by their own private judgements to attain to the full meaning of every hard sentence in the Law that it is said v. 79. that the Levites interpreted to the people and that Esdras taught them And v. 13. not only the people but the inferior Levites and Priests came to Esdras the chief Priest to hear from him the interpretation of the Law Now the respondent if he will make a parallel between the common people of the Jews and his Protestants must produce some clear place of Scripture where the Books of the Law of Moses and not only they but the whole Old Testament was as common and familiar in the houses and hands of every ignorant Jew as the Old and New Testament is now in the houses and hands of every ignorant Protestant which I believe he will find a very hard task seeing Printing being then unknown to the world it would have been very difficult to have found so immense a number of copies as are now since Printing of the Bible amongst Protestants Yet are not we of opinion that the Scriptures are either not profitable as Saint Paul says they are or not sufficient supposing them to be the written word of God by some precedent proof by way of Rule to make us wise unto Salvation For they contain many of the most important points of Religion clearly and expressely to all who are not willfully pertinacious and what they contain not in particular expressions by general rules they refer to the Church

and the chief Governors of it to learn them from their mouths or from the Vniversal Tradition of Christendome But that every particular Christian is to receive and know what he is to believe what not by his sole perusal of Gods written word as though every particular point of Christian Faith were particularly set down in it or by particular respective consequences or other particular proofs concerning every such point to be deduced from it is so great a Paradox that no man I think who hath his right senses can averr it For besides the unlearned which is the far greater part of Christendome whereof a very great part know neither to write nor read and therefore depend upon the credit of others what are the words of Scripture or if they can read know no other save their Mothers tongue and thereby are subject to a thousand misconstructions of the words or Phrases in the Original or if they arrive to the knowledge of the original know not the true Rules of interpretation of Scripture and thereby run into errors or if they know them out of Pride or self-conceit of their own wit and jugdment will not apply them And as to the Learned seeing they after all their industry skill in Languages comparing one place with another c. are yet so far from according one with another in the interpretation of divers places of Scripture touching points of Faith controverted that there is no hope after 150 years discord they will ever come to an agreement But suppose some learned men might have a greater insight into Scripture and approach nearer to the sense of it then those that are less learned or the ignorant yet Scripture interpreted by private mens judgment cannot be a sufficient Rule of Faith or means to obtain it For the Rule and means appointed by almighty God to attain Faith must be common and universal to all sorts of Christians nor must there be one rule and means for the learned and another for the unlearned Seeing Scripture cannot be sufficiently interpreted by the sole means of Scripture by the unlearned as I have shewed and Scripture interpreted by private men cannot be the Rule and Means appointed by Almighty God for the guiding of consciences in all points of Faith there must therefore be some other for the unlearned and consequently for all Now this other means and rule can be no other excogitable unless we run to the Sole private Spirit of Phanatiques which is more absurd then all the rest save the direction and universal Tradition of Gods Catholick Church as is above declared As to your last sentence I acknowledg That he who can answer these Queries may answer mine and the same substantial answer mutatis mutandis will satisfie a good conscience in both Nor did I ever think my Queries unanswerable for I know I could answer them my self or any one may do who assents to the Principles of the Roman Church But I propounded my Queries to Protestants and shewed they are unanswerable by them and from them only it is from whom I in this occasion expect an answer N. 2. Now let us weigh the Categorical Answers To the first the Answer seems to be affirmative Onely there is some dubiousness in the word Christianity For all Hereticks make a visible profession of Christianity Supposing therefore you mean true Christianity in their whole Profession the Answer is accepted To the second you add the word Ordinarily If therefore you mean by this that some may be saved in extraordinary cases out of the visible Church I take the Answer to be affirmative that some may be saved out of the visible Catholick Church which I think is contrary to the stream of all Christian Antiquity The third hath nothing of a Categorical Answer For I demand amongst all different pretended professions which is now the Holy Catholick Church by designation of some one or some set number of Professions now on foot And you tell me what the Holy Catholick Church is but give no designation of any particular profession or professions of Christians Or if you intended to make a designation you have answered obscurum per aequè obscurum which can be no Categorical Answer For it is now as obscure among Christians which profession that is which now professeth the true Catholick Faith once for all delivered to the Saints c. as it is which is now the Holy Catholick Church Your fourth Answer is defective ex insufficienti enumeratione partium and not Categorical For I put two parts in my Querie Destructive of Salvation or indangering of it You answer to the first but you say nothing to the second wherein notwithstanding was the main force of the Querie Your fifth Answer is not Categorical because only conditional You say The Catholick Church so long as it continues so cannot c Now this conditional So long as it continues so supposes that the Catholick Church can cease to be the Catholick Church which is both contrary to your answer to the first Querie wherein you grant that there is in all ages a Visible Catholick Church and a most damnable error in Christianity For if the Visible Catholick Church can ever cease to be Christ who hath promised it shall ever be Eph. 4. 10 11 12. c. will become a false Prophet But suppose you had given a Categorical Answer That it can never obtrude false Scripture c. then you must grant that the Catholick Visible Church is infallible in the delivery of Scripture If so then is there an Infallible Judg upon the earth concerning this point If so I require some satisfactory reason why the Church should be infallible in this and fallible in other points of Faith seeing it is as great absurdity to abuse the world with salse Faith as with false Scriptures Or what authority is there either in Scripture or Antiquity which limits the infallibility of the Church to the sole determination of Scriptures Or is it not as pernicious to a Soul to be put in danger of damnation by having a dangerous error taught it by the Church as by having some Books happily less dangerous than that error imposed upon it by the Church To your Conclusion I answer The reason why you are to desert the Protestant English Church is not because it adheres to the Scriptures as a Rule of Faith for the Roman doth that as well as the Protestant but because they will have that the sole Rule in exclusion of Vniversal Tradition and the voice of the Catholick Church Nor is it any reason to refuse to join with the Roman Church because it enjoyns one to renounce his Senses and Reason For it enjoyns this no more than Scripture and the Protestant Church does For was not Lot to deny his Senses when he perceived them to be Angels whom his eyes ears and touch taught him to be living men And how could our Saviour pass through a whole crowd of people and neither