greatly passe howe the Donatistes in this pointe demeaned them selues and whether they openly or priuilie shonned proufes brought and deduced out of the olde Testament In deed the Manichees denied the authoritie of the bookes of the old Law and Testament whiche I reade not of the Donatists Yea in the very same boke and chapter by you alleaged Petilian him self taketh his proufe against the Catholikes out of the olde Testament whiche you know could serue him in litle stede if he him selfe did reiect such kind of euidences This now shall suffice for this branche to purge M. Fekenham that he is no Donatist or Heretique otherwise Concerning the other beside your falshood your great follie doth also shew it sesfe too as well as in the other to imagin him to be a Donatist and to think or say as you say they did that ciuile magistrates haue not to do with religiō nor may not punish the trāsgressours of the same M. Fekenhā saith no such thing ād I suppose he thinketh no such thing and furder I dare be as bold to say that there is not so much as a light cōiecture to be groūded therof by any of M. Fekenhās words onlesse M. Horne become sodenly so subtil that he thinketh no differēce to say the Prince shuld not punish an honest true mā in stede of a theef ād to say he shuld not punish a theef Or to say there is no difference betwixt althings ād nothing For though M. Fekenhā ād al other Catholiks do deny the ciuile Princes supreme gouernmēt in al causes ecclesiasticall yet doth not M. Fekenhā or any Catholike deny but that ciuil Princes may deale in some matters ecclesiastical as aduocates and defendours of the churche namely in punishing of heretikes by sharp lawes vnto the which lawes heretikes are by the Church first geuē vp and deliuered by open excōmunication and condemnatiō As for S. Augustines testimonies they nothing touch M. Fekenham and therefore we will say nothing to them but kepe our accustomable tale with you and beside all other score vp as an vntruth that ye say here also that the Papists are no parte of the Catholique Churche no more then the Donatistes M. Horne The .19 Diuision pag. 12. b. But for that S. Augustines iudgemēt and mine in this controuersie is all one as your opinion herein differeth nothing at al from the Donatists I vvil vse no other confirmation of my proufes alleaged out of the olde testament for the reproufe of your guilful restraint then Christes Catholique Church vttered by that Catholique Doctour S. Augustine against all the sectes of Donatistes vvhether they be Gaudentians Petilians Rogatists Papists or any other petit sectes sprōg out of his loines vvhat name so euer they haue S. Austine against Gaudētius his second Epistle affirmeth saiyng I haue saith he already hertofore made it manifest that it apertained to the kings charge that the Niniuites shoulde pacifye Gods wrath which the Prophet had denoūced vnto thē The kings which are of Christes Church do iudge most rightly that it appertaineth vnto their cure that you Donatists rebel not without punishmēt agaīst the same c. God doth inspire into kīgs that they should procure the cōmaundement of the Lorde to be performed or kept in their kingdom For they to whom it is said and now ye kings vnderstand be ye learned ye Iudges of the earth serue the Lord in feare do perceiue that their autoriti ought so to serue the lord that such as wil not obei his wil should be punished of that autority c. Yea saith the same S. Aug. Let the kings of the erth serue Christ euē in making lawes for Christ. meaning for the furtherance of Christes religiō How then doth kings saith S. Aug. to Bonifacius against the Donatists serue the Lord with reuerēce but in forbidding and punishing with a religious seuerity such things as are don against the Lords commaūdements For a king serueth one way in that he is a man an other way in respect that he is a king Because in respecte that he is but a mā he serueth the Lord in liuing faithfully but in that he is also a king he serueth in making lawes of cōuenient force to cōmaūd iust things ād to forbid the cōtrary c. In this therfore kings serue the Lord whē they do those things to serue him which thei could not do were thei not kings c. But after that this begā to be fulfilled which is writē and al the kings of the earth shal worship him al the nations shal serue him what mā being in his right wittes may say to Kings Care not you in your Kingdomes who defēdeth or oppugneth the Church of your Lord Let it not appertaine or be any part of your care who is religious in your kingdome or a wicked deprauer of Religion This vvas the iudgemēt of S. Aug. or rather of Christes Catholike Church vttered by him against the Donatists touching the seruice authority povver ād care that Kings haue or ought to haue in causes spiritual or ecclesiastical the vvhich is also the iudgemēt of Christes catholik church novv in these dais and defended by the true ministers of the same Catholique Churche against al Popish Donatists vvith the force of Gods holy vvoorde bothe of the old and nevv Testament euen as S. Augustine did before VVho to proue and confirme this his assertiō to be true against the Donatists did auouch many moe examples then I haue cited out of the old Testament as of the King of Niniue of Darius Nabuchodonozor and others affirming that the histories and other testimonies cited out of the old Testament are partely figures and partly prophecies of the povver duety and seruice that Kings shoulde ovve and perfourme in like sort to the furtherance of Christes Religion in the time of the nevv Testament The Donatists in the defence of their heresie restrained S. Augustine to the exāple and testimony of such like order of Princes Seruice in matters of Religion to be found in the Scriptures of the nevve Testament meaning that it could not be found in any order that Christ lefte behind him as you also fantasied vvhē you vvrote the same in your boke folovving yea going euen cheke by cheke vvith thē But S. Austine maketh ansvvere to you al for him and me both VVho rehearsing the actes of the godly Kings of the old Testament taketh this for a thing not to be denied to vvit That the auncient actes of the godly kings mentioned in the Prophetical bokes were figures of the like facts to be don by the godly Princes in the time of the new Testament And although there vvas not in the time of the Apostles nor long time after any Kings or Princes that put the same ordinance of Christ in practise al being infidels for the most part Yet the seruice of kings was figured as S. Augustine saith in Nabuchodonozor and others to be
to the vnitie of the Churche and to represse their heresies vvith their authoritie and godlie lavves made for that purpose to vvhome it belonged of duetie and vvhose especial seruice to Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiectes be gouerned defended and mainteined in the true and sincere religion of Christ vvithout al errours superstitions and heresies as S. Augustine proueth at large in his Epistle against Vincentius a Rogatist in his Epistle to Bonifacius and in his booke against Petilian and Gaudentius letters Against this Catholique Doctrine your auncestours the Donatistes arise vp and defend them selues vvith this colour or pretence that they be of the Catholique faith and that their church is the Catholique church VVhich shift for their defence against Gods truth the Popish sectaries doe vse in this our time being .51 no more of the one or of the other then vvere the Donatists and such like of vvhom they learned to couer their horrible heresies vnder the same faire cloke that the secular Princes haue not to meddle in matters of religion or causes Ecclesiastiall That God committed not the teaching of his people to Kings but to Prophetes Christ sent not souldiours but fishers to bring in and further his religion that there is no example of such order found in the Gospell or nevv Testament vvherby it may appeare that to secular Princes it belongeth to haue care in matters of religion And that as it semeth by that S Augustine by preuention obiecteth against them they subtilly refused all proufes or examples auouched out of the Olde testamente as ye craftely doe also in binding me onelie to the Nevv testament vvhich S. Augustine calleth an odious and vvicked guile of the Donatists Let your friends novv vvhome ye vvill seeme to please so much vvhen you beguile them most of all vveigh vvith aduisement vvhat vvas the erronious opinion touching the authoritie of Princes in causes Ecclesiastical of the Donatists as it is here rightly gathered foorth of S. Augustine and let them consider vvisely these foule shiftes they make for their defence And then compare your opinion and guilefull defences thereof to theirs and they must needs clappe you on the backe and saye to you Patrisas if there be any vpright right iudgement in them deming you so like your graundsier Donatus as though he had spitte you out of his ovvne mouth The .16 Chapter declaring in howe many pointes Protestants are Donatists and by the way of M. Foxes Martyrs Stapleton HITHERTO good Reader M. Horne although vntruely yet hath he somwhat orderlike proceeded But in that which followeth vntill we come to the .20 leafe beside moste impudent and shamelesse lyes wherwith he would deface M. Fekenham he prosequuteth his matter so confusely and vnorderly leaping in and out I can not tel howe nor whither that I verely thinke that his wits were not his owne being perchance encombred with some his domestical affaires at home that he could not gather them together or that he the lesse passed what an hodge potche he made of his doings thinking which is like that his fellowes Protestantes woulde take all things in good gree knowing that poore M. Fekenham was shut vp close inough from al answering And thinking that no Catholique els woulde take vppon him to answere to his lewde booke I had thought M. Horne that from the olde Testament ye woulde haue gone to the newe Testament and woulde haue laboured to haue established your matters therby Belike the world goeth very hard with you in that behalfe that ye doe not so sauing that here and there ye iumble in a testimonie or two I can not tell how but howe vnhandsomly and from the purpose yea against your owne selfe that I wot well and ye shall anon heare of it also In the meane while it is worth the labour well to consider the excellent pregnant witte and greate skill of this man who hath in the former Treatise of M. Fekenham espied out which surely the wisest and best learned of all the worlde I trowe beside M. Horne would neuer haue espied such a special grace the man hath geuen him of his maister the Deuill of mere malice ioyned with like follie that M. Fekenham is an Heretike and a Donatist But yet M. Fekenham is somewhat beholding to him that he saith M. Fekenham hath bewrayed his secrete heresies Wherein he saith for the one part most truely For if there be any heresie at all in this matter surmised vppon him as certainly there is none it is so secrete and priuie that Argus himselfe with al his eyes shall neuer espye it no nor M. Horne him selfe let him prie neuer so narrowly whereas on the other side M. Horn and his fellowes and his Maisters Luthers and Caluins heresies are no secrete nor simple heresies but so manifolde and so open that they haue no waye or shift to saue their good name and honestie blotted and blemished for euer without repentance for the obstinate maintenance of the same Where of many were many hūdred yeares since condemned partly by the holy Fathers partly by General Councels You say M. Fekenham hath secrete heresies and that Donatus is his great grandsi◠and the Donatists the Catholikes auncetours but how truly you shal vnderstād anon In the meane while good Syr may it please you fauourably to heare you and your maisters honorable pedegre and of their worthy feares and prowes You haue heard of them before perhaps and that by mee But suche things as may edifie the Catholike ād can neuer be answered by the Heretike Decies repetita placebunt Howe say you then to the great heretik Aerius the Arrian that said there was no difference betwene priest and Bisshop betwene him that fasted and that did not faste and that the sacrifice for the deade was fruitlesse How say you to Iouinian that denied virginity to haue any excellencye aboue matrimony or any special rewarde at Gods handes To the Arrians that denied the miracles done at the saintes tōbes to be true miracles and that the martyrs cā not caste out the diuels and relieue thē that be possessed To the Bogomyles that said the deuils sate at the saints tōbes and did wonders there to illude and deceiue the people to cause the people to worship them To Berengarius condemned in diuers councels first for denying of the real presence in the sacrament of the aulter and then for denying the transubstantiatiō To the Paulicians that saied these wordes of Christe Take eate this is my body are not to be vnderstanded of his bodye or the breade and wine vsed at the celebration of our Lordes maundy but of the holy scriptures which the Priests should take at Christes hand and deliuer and distribute to the people To Claudius and Vigilantius that denied the inuocation of Saintes and inueyed against the blessed reliques and the vse of Lights and other ceremonies in the Church To the Massalians and other heretiks
and agreement of all the Clergy and of al the lay the Emperour Archadius sent for him from Antioche to Constantinople and so by the common decree of al estates as the order of electioÌ„ then was he was elected bishop not by the Emperours supreme and absolute Authoryty as M. Horne fancyeth TheÌ„ Theodoret though he tel not so much yet dothe he not attribute the matter to the Emperour as a parte of his gouuernement Which that it might some waies appere M. Horn thought good to spyce a litle the text with the powder of his false translation that yet so it might somewhat relys in the Readers coÌ„ceit for his surmised primacy For Theodoret saieth not that in this dooing the Emperour declared what careful endeuour he had aboute the holy Churche matters but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the care that he had about Gods or godly matters Which care is commendable as in all men so in princes especially for the greater good they are able to doe But such care of Gods matters emporteth no gouuernement in such matters As neither the care of Churche matters importeth iurisdictioÌ„ Though yet that soundeth nearer to iurisdiction then the care and zeale about godly maters And therefore M. Horne thought good with this litle poore helpe of false translation a little to itche forward his miserale and barraine cause And that we shoulde the more fauourably winck at his liegerdemain he phraseth it the holy Church matters Speaking very holily and reuerently that we might not suspect him of forgery Whereas in the original text of his author there is no worde of eyther Church â–ª or holy Church Last of all though we graunted him which we neither will nor may considering the whole story as Socrates describeth it that Archadius him selfe appointed Iohn Chrysostom to be Bishop yet maketh it not any iote to proue any Supremacie in him eyther in al or in any cause ecclesiastical Vnlesse we wil haue euery laie patroÌ„ that preseÌ„teth his Priest to a benefice to be supreÌ„ heade also or measure the matter by the greatenesse and weight of the patrimony and liuing and not by the weight of reason But now M. Horne in an il time for your self aÌ„d for your supremacy haue ye here put me in remeÌ„brance of this Archadius and S. Iohn Chrysostom Yf you would purposely haue sought a meane to haue geueÌ„ your self a greate and a shameful fall that all that beholde you mighte laughe you al to skorne ye could not haue fouÌ„d lightly any where els a better occasion For this Archadius being Emperour of the East as Honorius was in the West was excoÌ„municated of Pope InnoceÌ„tius for banishing of the said S. Chrysostom being most wrongfully deposed by his enemies by the procurement of Archadius his wife Now Syr I besech you tel me who is supreme head the Emperour or he that excoÌ„municateth th' Emperor especially being vnder an other Patriarche and resideÌ„t so far of as CoÌ„stantinople is froÌ„ Rome The next narration seing it toucheth nothing but matters of election requireth no great answere namely seing M. Horne him self hath made a sufficieÌ„t answer against him self For if th'Emperour made a law touching th'electioÌ„ of Popes at the Popes own desire belike here was no great Supremacy eueÌ„ no more then the Pope was coÌ„tent either to geue hiÌ„ or to suffer at his hand Neither the banishing of both Popes froÌ„ Rome especially in a schism as this was by M. Horne here specified causeth any spirituall iurisdiction the matter it selfe being mere temporall as the matter of the election being in this case only begunne not brought to perfection Beside this here is no presidente of our elections in England For here is both the Emperors the Clergyes and the peoples consente in the Bishoppelye election I woulde nowe passe ouer to the next matter sauing M. Horne here commeth in with his Glosatour and Glosar after such a cunninge sorte lawlike and gloselike that it woulde not be to hastely lepte ouer Firste he alleageth the Glosatour as he calleth him and that I am assured is meante and so to be proued of him that is the common expositour of the Canon Lawe as appeareth by Maister Hornes owne allegations But that he bringeth out of his Glosar I am assured is not to be founde in him that he calleth Glosatour And so haue we an other extraordinary glose by M. Horne now first authorised But perchance ye wil meruaile good Reader especially ye that are exercised and trauailed in the Canon Law that M. Horne shuld haue so deape and rare knowledge in the gloses of the Canon law that perchaÌ„ce this question might appose the best Doctor in the arches onles it wer M. D. Ackworth M. Horns soÌ„ne in law who perchaÌ„ce by his fathers speciall coÌ„mision though perhaps M. Horne neuer read the glosar him selfe hath authorised vs a new glosar And now me thiÌ„keth your eares itch to heare what glosar this shuld be It had ben wel don for M. Horne to haue eased his Reader and me to in so doutful a mater But seing we haue fouÌ„d him out at the leÌ„gth out he shall and al the world shall now know him and shall know M. Horne much the better by and for him Therfore to be short it is Carolus Molineê° a frenchman whose glose is as far as I can yet learn scarse seuen yeres old or therabout scarsely past his infancy and woulde hardly be allowed to speake onlesse M. Horn had bisshopped it Wherfore I see no cause but that I may according to my manner score vp this to But yet if M. Horne will needes haue him a Glosar with the which perchaunce I will not greatly sticke especially in that sence as merely we call a Glosar in our tongue that is a vaine lyer and thinke he may truely so call him I will not muche contende with him For if he skape scoring vppe for calling him Glosar here surely he shall by no meanes skape for calling him the Popes Glosar the tenth lyne immediatlye following For Mollineus is so the Popes Glosar that he loueth the Pope and alloweth his authoritie euen as well as M. Horne him self as appereth as wel by his notes adioyned to the olde interpretour of the Canon law new and fresh set out as by his other workes extant in print condemned among other inhibited bookes by the late General Councel And whoe would haue thought that M. Horne had such wise wilie wittie fresh fetches I perceiue a ragged Colte may yet proue a good Horse M. Horne The .43 Diuision pag. 28. b. Sabellicus speakinge of the contentious entraunce of Damasus the first into the Papacy vvhiche vvas not vvithout great bloudshed as Volateranus saith dothe note the ambition of the Prelates to be the cause of suche coÌ„tention about their atteininge of such roumes For now saieth he the ambicious desire of honour had by litle and litle begon to entre into the mindes of the Bishopes
A COVNTERBLAST TO M. HORNES VAYNE BLASTE AGAINST M. Fekenham Wherein is set forthe A ful Reply to M. Hornes Answer and to euery part therof made against the Declaration of my L. Abbat of Westminster M. Fekenham touching The Othe of the Supremacy By perusing vvhereof shall appeare besides the holy Scriptures as it vvere a Chronicle of the Continual Practise of Christes Churche in al ages and Countries frō the time of Constantin the Great vntil our daies Prouing the Popes and Bisshops Supremacy in Ecclesiastical causes and Disprouing the Princes Supremacy in the same Causes By Thomas Stapleton Student in Diuinitie Athanas. in Epist. ad solita vitā agentes pag. 459. When was it heard from the creation of the worlde that the Iudgement of the Churche should take his authoritie from the Emperour Or when was that taken for any iudgement Ambr. lib. 5. epist. 32. In good sooth if we call to minde either the whole course of Holy Scripture or the practise of the auncient times passed who is it that can deny but that in matter of faith in matter I saie of faith Bisshops are wont to iudge ouer Christian Emperours not Emperours ouer Bisshops LOVANII Apud Joannem Foulerum An. 1567. Cum Priuil REgiae Maiestatis Gratia Speciali Concessum est Thomae Stapletono Anglo librum inscriptum A Counterblaste to M. Hornes Vaine Blaste c. per aliquem Typographorum admissorum tutò liberè imprimendum curare publicè distrahere nullo prohibente Datum Bruxellis .27 Maij Anno. 1567. Subsig Pratz TO M. ROBERT HORNE THOMAS STAPLETON VVISHETH Grace from God and true repentance of al Heresies IF the natural wisedome and foresight M. Horne described of our Sauiour in the Gospel by a parable had bene in you at what tyme you first set penne to paper to treate of the Othe of Supremacy you would not I suppose so rashly haue attempted an enterprise of such importance The Parable saith VVho is it amonge you that minding to build a Castle sitteth not doune first and reckoneth vvith him self the charges requisit thereunto to see if he be able to bring it to passe lest that hauing layed the foundation and then not able to make an ende al that see him begin to laugh him to scorne saying beholde this man beganne to builde but he hath not bene able to make an ende The matter you haue taken in hande to proue is of such and so greate importaunce as no matter more nowe in Controuersie It is the Castle of your profession The keye of your doctrine The principal forte of all your Religion It is the piller of your Authority The fountaine of your Iurisdiction The Ankerholde of all your proceedinges Without the right of this Supreme Gouernement by you here defended your cause is betrayed your doctrine dissolueth your whole Religion goeth to wracke The wante of this Right shaketh your Authoritye stoppeth your Iurisdiction and is the vtter shipwracke of all your Procedings Againe it toucheth you say the prerogatiue of the Prince It is the only matter which Catholikes stand in by parliamēt enacted by booke Othe required vpō greate penalty refused Other matters in cōtrouersy whatsoeuer are not so pressed Thirdly you haue takē vpon you to persuade so great a matter first to a right lerned and reuerēt Father in priuat cōferēce and next to al the realme of Englād by publishing this your Answer as you cal it The weightier the matter is and the more confidently you haue taken it vpō you the more is it looked for and reason would that you did it substantially lernedly ād truly and before you had entred to so great a worke to haue made your reckoning how you might bring it to perfection But now what haue you don Haue you not so wrought that all your faire building being cleane ouerthrowen mē beginne as the Ghospell saieth to laughe you to scorne saying Beholde this man beganne a great matter but beinge not able to finishe it he is fayne to breake of You will say These be but woordes of course and a certain triumphe before the Victory Haue I not groūded this work of myne vpō the foundatiō of holy Scriptures Haue I not posted it vp with the mighty stronge pillers of the most learned Fathers Haue I not furnished it with a ioyly variety of Stories deducted from al the most Christian Emperours Kinges and Princes of more then these .xij. hundred yeares Haue I not fensed it with inuicible rampars of most holy Councels both general and national And last of al haue I not remoued all such scruples and stayes of conscience as though it were brambles and briers out of the waye to make the passage to so fayre a Forte pleasant easy and commodious You haue in dede M. Horne in owtwarde shewe and countenance sette a gay gloriouse and glistering face vppon the matter A face I say of holy Scriptures of Fathers of the Canon the Ciuill and the lawe of the Realme of manye Emperours Kinges and Princes for proufe of a continuall practise of the like Supremacye nowe by Othe to the Q. Highnes attributed in the auncient Churches of England Fraunce Germany Spayne Italy Grece Armenia Moscouia Aethyopia But all is but a Face in dede and a naked shewe without Substāce of Truth and matter It is like to the Aples and grapes and other fruits of the countrey of Sodome and Gomorre which growing to a full rypenes and quantitye in sight seeme to the eye very faire and pleasant but when a man cometh to plucke of them and to tast he shal finde them vnnaturall and pestilente and to smoder and smoke away and to resolue into ashes Such is the effect of your whole booke It beareth a countenance of truth of reason of learning But coming to the trial and examination of it I finde a pestilent ranke of most shamefull Vntruths an vnsauery and vaine kinde of reasoning and last of al the whole to resolue into grosse Ignorance For proufe hereof I wil shortly lay forth an abridgement of your whole demeanour And wherewith shal I better begin thē with the begīning and foundatiō of al sciēces and that is with grāmer it self Whereof I neuer heard or read in any man bearing the vocation that you pretēde either more grosse ignorance or which is more likely and much worse more shameful and malicious corruptiō You English Conuenit which is it is mete and conuenient into it ought which is the English of oportet not of conuenit You English Recensendam to be examined and confirmed where it signifieth ōly to be read or rehersed Item where your Author hath Priuilegia irrogare that is To geue priuileges you translate it quyte contrarye To take avvaye Priuileges Againe in the same Author pro quauis causa which is for euery cause you trāslate it for any cause as if it were pro qualibet or quacūque causa Al which foule shiftes of howe much importaunce they were I referre
denied If my curiosyty in noting them displease you let the vttering of thē first displease your self and then you will the lesse be displeased with me You knowe M. Iewel hath ledde vs this daunce Be not angry M. Horne if we follow the round Moderat your penne better Report your Authours more sincerelye Translate your allegations more truly Laye downe the whole sentences without concealing of such matter as ouerthroweth your purpose Say no more then you finde in the Stories Slaunder not your betters Deale more aduisedly and vprightly So shal your Vntruthes be the fewer an other time But so wil your cause I assure you M. Horne come forthe starke naked feble and miserable The beauty and force of your Cause consisteth and depēdeth altogether of lyes and vntruthes If you ioyne obstinacy to folie as Maister Iewell doth so shamefully in opē Sermon iustifying him selfe but not clering him selfe of any one of so many hundred Vntruths iustlye and rightly layed to his charge then as I saied before I may iustly say that you are at a point to lie whatsoeuer come of it Like as a protestant of late dayes being pressed of a Catholike for extreme lying and not being hable to clere him selfe saied plainely and bluntlye Quamdiu potero clades adferā Latebunt quamdiu poterunt Valebunt apud vulgus ista mendacia Well I wil deface them meaning the Catholikes and doe some mischiefe to them as longe as I am able My lies shall lie hidde as longe as maye be And at the leste the common people shall fall in a lyking with them If you be at this pointe then knowing where to haue you we knowe also what to make of you and for suche to esteme you A false Prophet and a lying Master such as S. Peter spake of bringing in vvicked and damnable sectes God geue them grace which are deceiued by you so well to knowe you as we that doe examine your writinges haue good Cause to knowe you This your Aunswer M. Horne as I vnderstand you haue presented to diuers of the Quenes Maiest most Honorable Councell intending thereby not onely to discredit Maister Fekenham and to increase his trouble but also to bring into displeasure all other the Queenes Highnes Catholike subiectes of which full many onelye for conscience sake haue refused and doe yet refuse the Othe that you here moste ignorantlye defende For this purpose also at the verye ende of your booke you referre as it were the whole matter to the most Honorables saying To Conclude by the premisses it maie appeare to the Honorable as by a taste vvhat sinceritie there is in you Thus much you say for discrediting of M. Fekenham You adde a greuous Accusatiō against al the Catholik subiects of England saying And lastlie your quarreling by spreading this booke vvas and is to impugne and barke against the Q. Maiest Lavvful and due Authoritie vvhich you and your complices dailie labour to subuert vvhich matter I refer to be further cōsidered by the graue vvisedom of the most Honorable And with this poisoned ād cācred Reproch you end your whole book geuīg your Reader to vnderstād that the very end ād scope of your book was to ingraffe in the Noble hartes of the most Honorables a great misliking ād heauie displeasure not only of and against M. Fek. already in trouble but also of and against the whole number of Catholikes who haue alwaies continewed and shewed themselues the Quenes Maiest moste loyal and obediēt subiects and haue deserued no such Reproche at your handes M. Horne You haue therefore M. Horn in this Reply a iust and a ful defence partly against your most slanderous accusation but chiefly and especially of the whole Cause and Question in Controuersy As you did to M. Fekenhams Treatise so I to your Aunswer haue replied through out I haue not omitted any one parte or parcel of your whole book As I haue here printed againe the whole to encrease of charges so haue I answered the whole to edifying of the Reader If by this Reply you find your self satisfied and are cōtent to yelde to the Truth so euidently and abundantly opened vnto you than both I and al other Catholikes will both better trust you and geue God thankes for you But if after the perusing of this Reply you shal think you are not fully and in euery point confuted I wishe that the most Honorable to whom so cōfidently you commend your own doings woulde commaunde you to proue it so to the worlde by a ful Reioyndre A ful Reioyndre I say and perfect to al and euery part of this Reply as I haue here replied to al and euery part of your Answer not omitting any one example of Councel Prince or Countrie by you alleged And that you put in my whole Answer not omitting any one line or sentence either of the text or of the margent If the Truth be on your side you haue no cause to stick hereat You wil seme to wante no learning Abylytieto beare the charges we are sure you want not Goe thorough therefore as you haue begun with this faire building of yours if you thinke your foundatiō good or the cause which you ground vpon sure Goe through I say that it may appere you haue geuē M. F. good cause to remoue his scruples and to be persuaded at your handes Els if you now draw backe and think by silēce to drown the matter first for your faire peece of worke so shamefully brokē of men wil laugh you to skorne as the ghospel by the parable told you Then al mē may knowe that your great vauntes of your Walthā talke and reasoning are but wordes of course to saue your poore honour I shoulde say honestly Thirdly that M. Fekenhās scruples are most lerned ād inuincible reasons And last of al that the Othe which you so earnestly persuade him to take can of nomā be taken without manifest Periury Whereof enseweth that you most horribly offend Gods Diuine Maiesty which doe burden mens consciences with such euident periury The worste that I wishe you M. Horne is that you retracte your haynous heresies and proue a true Christiā And thus for this tyme I take my leaue of you Vale Resipisce Thomas Stapleton 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 THE PREFACE TO THE READER IT had bene much to be wisshed gentle Reader that the right reuerent and learned Father my L. Abbat of Westminster M. Feckenham whom M. Hornes Booke moste toucheth might him selfe as he is most able and as I suppose as wel willing haue answered it also But seing his state is suche that he presently can not doe it I being by some of my frendes requested to trauaile in the matter was at the first not very willing thereto as for diuerse other causes namely for that in very dede I was ful purposed hauing so largely prouoked suche sharpe aduersaries especially M. Iewel for a season to reste and to stande at my own
Fekenhā meant otherwise then he durst plainly vtter or by his cūning could aunswer vnto M. Horne The 2. Diuision Vvherein I follovv the order of M. Fekenhams booke I make the proofes according to his request and besides my proofes foorth of the Scriptures the auncient Doctours the Generall Councels and Nationall I make proofe by the continual practise of the Church .3 in like gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon her and that by such Authors for a great sort of them as are the more to be credited in this matter for that they vvere most earnest fautors of the Romish sea infected as the times vvere vvith much superstitiō and did attribute vnto the see of Rome and so to the vvhole Clergie so much authoritie in Churche matters as they mighte and muche more then they ought to haue done Stapleton I wil not charge M Horne that his meaning is to ingraffe in the mindes of the subiectes a misliking of the Queenes Maiestie as though shee vsurped a power and autoritie in Ecclesiasticall maters whereto shee hath no right as he chargeth M. Fekenham withal vnlesse perchance he were of Councell with the holy brotherhode of Geneua for the Booke whereof we shall hereafter speake that spoyleth the Queenes Maiesty of al her authority as wel tēporal as spiritual and vnlesse he hath in opē sermō at VVinchester mainteined cōtrary to the Quenes ecclesiastical iniunctions such as would not reform their disordered apparel and that after he had put his hand as one of the Queenes cōmissioners to the redresse of the saied disorder And vnlesse he hath and doth maītein many things beside yea and cōtrary to the lawes and orders of the realm late set forth cōcerning maters ecclesiasticall as it is wel knowē and to be proued he hath don as wel in the defending of the Minister of Durley near the Manour of Bisshops Walthā refusing the saied order as otherwise But this may I boldy say and I doubt nothinge to proue it that in al his boke there is not as much as one worde of scripture one Doctour one councell generall or prouincial not the practise of any one countrey throwgh owte the worlde counted Catholike that maketh for such kinde of regiment as M. Horne avoucheth nor any one manner of proufe that hath any weight or pythe in the worlde to perswade I wil not say M. Fekenham but any other of much lesse witte learning and experience I say M. Horne commeth not ones nighe the principall matter and question wherein M. Fekenhā would and of right ought to be resolued I say further in case we remoue and sequester al other proufes on oure syde that M. Horn shal by the very same fathers councels and other authorities by him felfe producted so be ouerthrowen in the chief and capital question vnto the which he cometh not nighe as a man might say by one thowsande myles that his owne company may haue iuste cause to feare least this noble blaste so valiantly and skilfully blowen owte of M. Hornes trompet shall engender in the harts of all indifferent and discrete Readers much cause to mistruste more thē they did before the whol matter that M. Horne hath taken in hande to iustifie Wherefore as it is mete in al matters so is it here also cōueniēt and necessary to haue before thyne eyes good Reader the state and principal question controuersed betwene the parties standing in variance And then diligently to see how the proufes are of eche party applied for the confirming of their assertions There are therfore in this cause many things to be considered Firste that Christe lefte one to rule his whole Churche in his steade from tyme to tyme vnto the ende of the worlde Secondly that this one was Saint Peter the Apostle and now are the Bisshoppes of Rome his successours Thirdly that albeit the Bisshop of Rome had no such vniuersal gouernment ouer the whole yet that he is and euer was the patriarche of Englande and of the whole weste Church and so hath as muche to doe here as any other patriarche in his patriarkshippe Then that all were it that he had nothing to intermedle with vs nor as Pope nor as patriarche yet can not this supremacy of a ciuil prince be iustified whereof he is not capable especiallye a woman but it must remayne in some spiritual man Beside this the Catholikes say that as there was neuer any suche presidēte heretofore in the Catholike Churche so at this present there is no such except in England neither emonge the Lutherans the Zwinglians the Swenckfeldians or Anabaptistes nor any other secte that at this daye raygneth or rageth in the worlde None of these I saye agnise their cyuil prince as supreame gouernour in al causes spiritual and temporal Last of al I say and M. Fekenham wil also saye that euen M. Horne him selfe in this his answere retreyteth so farre backe from this assertion of supreame gouernment in all causes spirituall and temporall whiche is the state and keye of the whole question that he plucketh from the prince the chief and principal matters and causes ecclesiasticall as we shall here after plainely shewe by his owne woordes The premisses then being true and of owre syde abundantly proued and better to be proued as occasion shall serue as nothing can effectually be brought against them so M Horne as ye shal euidently perceiue in the processe stragleth quyte from al these points besetting himselfe all his study and endeuor to proue that which neither greatly hyndereth oure cause nor much bettereth his and for the which neither maister Fekenham nor any other Catholike will greatly contende with him whiche is when all is done that Princes may medle and deale with causes ecclesiasticall Which as it is in some meaning true so dothe yt nothing reache home to the pointe most to haue bene debated vpon And so is much labour vaynely and idlelye employed with tediouse and infynite talke and bablinge all from the purpose and owte of the matter whiche ought speciallye to haue bene iustifyed And therefore this is but an impudente facing and bragging to say that he hath proued the like regiment that we deny by the Fathers by the Councels and by the continual practise of the Churche Now it is worthy to see the iolye pollicy of this man and howe euen and correspondent it is to his fellowe protestants M. Iewel restrayneth the Catholikes to .600 yeres as it were by an extraordinary and newe founde prescription of his owne embarringe al Later proufes Yet he him selfe in the meane tyme runneth at large almoste one thowsande yeares Later shrynkinge hither and thyther taking tagge and ragge heretike and Catholik for the fortifying of his false assertions This wise trade this man kepeth also and to resolue M. Fekenham and setle his conscience he specially stayeth him self vpon Platina Nauclerus Abbas Vrspergensis Sabellicus Aeneas pius Volaterranus Fabian Polichronicon Petrus Bertrandus Benno
Bales or some such like but as for the olde ordinary Latin Glose I am right sure M. Horn it hath no suche thinge This therefore may wel stande for an other vntruthe As also that which immediatly you alleage out of Deuteron 13. For in al that chapter or any other of that booke there is no such worde to be founde as you talke of And thus with a ful messe of Notorious vntruthes you haue furnished the first seruice brought yet to the table cōcernīg the prīcipal matter How be it perhaps though this be very course yet you haue fyne dishes and dayntycates coming after Let vs then procede The .11 Diuision Pag. 8. b. M. Horne The beste and most Godly Princes that euer gouerned Gods people did perceiue and rightly vnderstande this to be Gods vvil that they ought to haue an especiall regarde and care for the ordering and setting foorth of Gods true Religion and therefore vsed great diligence vvith feruent zeale to perfourme and accomplishe the same Moyses vvas the supreme gouernour ouer Gods people and vvas .38 not chiefe Priest or Bisshop for that vvas Aaron vvhose authority zeale and care in appointing and ordering Religion amongest Gods people prescribing to al the people yea to Aaron and the Leuits vvhat and after vvhat sorte they should execute their functions correcting and chastening the transgressours is manifestly set foorthe in his booke called the Pentateuche The 9. Chapter concerning the example of Moyses MAister Horne willing to seame orderly to procede first bringeth in what scripture commaūdeth Princes to doe and then what they did But as his scripture towching the commaundemēt by him alleaged nothing reacheth home to his pretensed purpose but rather infringeth and plainely marreth the same as I haue saide and fully standeth on our syde So I dowbte nothing yt wil fare with his examples as of Moyses Iosue Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias Iosias and that they al come to short and are to weake to iustifie his assertion But here am I shrewdly encombred and in a great doubte what to doe For I coulde make a shorte but a true answere that these examples are fully answered alredy by M. Doctour Harding and M. Dorman and referre thee thither to thyne and myne ease gentle reader and to the sparing not onely of penne ynk and paper but of the tyme also whiche of al things is most preciouse But then I feare me woulde steppe forth yf not M. Horne a good simple plain man in his dealings yet some other iolye fyne freshe pregnant wytty fellowe yea and bringe me to the straits which way so euer I did tread Yf I shuld as I said sende the reader to them then should I heare a foole a dolte an asse that can say nothing of his own Then shoulde the cause be slaundered also as so poore and weake that it could beare no large and ample treatise yea with all that their answeres were such as I was asshamed of them and therefore wilylye and wiselye forbeared them with manye suche other triumphant trieflinge toyes Againe yf I shoulde repete or inculcate their answeres then woulde Maister Nowell or some other rushe in vppon me with his ruflynge rhetorike that he vseth againste Maister Dorman and Maister Doctour Hardinge withe a precise accompte and calculation what either Maister Dorman or Maister Doctour Hardinge borowed of Hosius or either of them two of the other And what I haue nowe borowed of them bothe or of either of them And I shoulde be likewise insulted vppon and our cause as feble and very weake slaundered also But on the one syde leaste any of the good bretherne shoulde surmise vppon my silence anye suche distruste I will compendiously as the matter shall require abridge their answeres and that Maister Horne shall thinke that our stuff is not al spente I shall on the other syde for a surplussage adioyne some other thinges to owre opponent accommodate So that I truste either answere shal be sufficient to atchieue our purpose againste Maister Horne Then for Moyses I saye with Maister Doctour Hardinge and Saint Augustyne that he was a prieste aswell as a Prince I say the same with Maister Dorman with Philo Iudeus with Saint Hierom and with Saint Hieroms Maister Gregorie Nazianzene And so consequently Maister Horne that Moyses example serueth not your turne onlesse ye will kinge Henry the eight and his sonne king Edward yea and our gracious Quene to be a priest to but rather quite ouerturneth your assertion And thinke you Maister Horne that the Quenes authority doth iumpe agree with the authority of Moyses in causes ecclesiastical Then maye she preach to the people as Moyses did Thē may she offer sacrifices as Moyses did Then may she cōsecrate Priests as Moyses did cōsecrate Aaron and others Then may it be said of the imposition of her hands as was said of Moyses Iosua the son of Nun was ful of the sprite of wisedom for Moyses hadde put his hand vpon him It must nedes therfore follow that Moyses was a priest and that a high priest which ye here ful peuishly deny I say now further with M. Dorman that put the case Moyses were no priest yet this example frameth not so smothely and closely to your purpose as ye wene For Moyses was a prophet and that such a prophet as the like was not agayne Geue me nowe Maister Horn Princes Prophetes geue me Princes and Lawe makers by speciall order and appointmente ordeyned of God to whose woordes God certainly woulde haue geuen as greate authority as he wolde and commaunded to be geuen to Moyses and then perchaunce I will say that ye saye somewhat well to the purpose Agayne Moyses was suche a speciall Prophet and so singularlye chosen of God to be heard and obeyed in all thinges that he is in the holy scripture euidentlye compared to Christ him selfe compared I say euen in the office of teaching and instructing Moyses in the Deuteronom foretelling the Iewes of a Messias to come saieth The Lorde thy God wil rayse thee vp a Prophet from among thy own nation and of thy brethern such a one as my self him thou shalt heare And this so spoken of Moyses in the olde Lawe is in the new testamēt auouched ād repeted first by S. Peter the chief Apostle and next by S. Stephen the first Martir and applied to Christ. If thē Christ must so be heard and obeied of vs as was Moyses of the Iewes no doubt as Christ is a Kinge a Prophet a Priest and a Bisshop to vs so was Moyses to thē a Prince a Prophet a Priest and a Bisshop As Christ is of vs to be heard and obeyed as wel in al matters Ecclesiasticall as Temporal for no temporal Lawe can haue force against the Law of Christ amonge Christen men so was Moyses to be heard and obeyed of the Iewes in matters and causes as well temporall as spirituall For why The Scripture is plaine Tanquam me
not Constantines the great his example Who being an Ethnike became a Christian and to the vttermost of his power set forth Christes religion in al the Empire what then your conclusion of supreame regiment wil not necessarily folow thereof And when Eusebius calleth him as it were a common or vniuersal bishop I suppose ye meane not that he was a bisshop in dede For your self cōfesse that princes and Bisshops offices are far distincted and disseuered and that the one ought not to break in to the office of the other And if ye did so meane Eusebius himself would sone confounde yow if ye reherse Constantines whole sentence that he spake to the Bisshopes For thus he saith to the bisshops Vos quidem eorum quae intus sunt in Ecclesia agenda ego verò eorum quae extra sunt Episcopus à Deo sum constitutus You are bisshops saith he of those things that are to be don within the Churche I am bisshop of outwarde thinges Which answere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or al that ye shall afterward bring in which declareth him no supreme iudge or chief determinour of causes Ecclesiastical but rather the contrary and that he was the ouerseer in ciuile matters And the most that may be enferred therof is that he had the procuration and execution of Church maters which I am assured al Catholiks wil graūt But now whereas ye charge M. Fekenham partly with subtil partly with fowle shiftes this is in you surely no subtyle but a blonte and a fowle shamelesse shifte to shifte the Idols into the Image of Christe and his saints and whereas Constantine put doune the paynims Idols to make the simple belieue that the reformation which he made was such as your reformation or rather deformation is For to leaue other things to say that Constantine forbadde to set vp Images is an open and a shamelesse lye for he set vp the Crosse of Christe that is so owtragiously and blasphemously vylayned by you euery where in the steade of the idolles he decked and adorned the Churches euery where with holy Images the remembraunce of Christes incarnation and for the worship of his saints therby to sette forth the truth and the worship of God and to conuert al nations from Idolatrie and deuelishe deceite M. Horne The Diuision 21. Pag. 15. Our sauiour Christ meante not to forbidde or destroy touchinge the rule seruice and chardge of Princes in Church causes that vvhich vvas figured in the lavve or prophecied by the Prophetes For he came to fulfil or accomplish the lavve and the Prophetes by remouing the shadovve and figure and establishing the body and substance to be seene and to appere clearly vvithout any mist or darke couer yea as the povver and authoritie of Princes vvas appointed in the Lavv and Prophets as it is proued to stretch it selfe not only to ciuile causes but also to the ouersight maintenance setting foorth and furtherance of Religion and matters Ecclesiastical Euen so Christ our Sauiour .56 confirmed this their authoritie commaunding all men to attribute and geue vnto Caesar that vvhich belongeth vnto him admonishing notvvithstanding al Princes and people that Caesars authority is not infinit or vvithout limits for such authority belōgeth only to the King of al Kings ▪ but bounded and circumscribed vvithin the boundes assigned in Gods vvorde and so vvill I my vvorde to be vnderstanded vvhen so euer I speake of the povver of Princes Stapleton M. Horne goeth yet nedelessely foreward to proue that Christ did not destroy the rule of Princes in Churche causes figured in the olde Lawe and now at length catcheth he one testimonie out of the new Testament to proue his saiyng which is Geue vnto Caesar that belongeth vnto him Which place nothing at al serueth his turne but rather destroyeth I will not say any figure of the old Testament but M. Hornes foolish figuratiue Diuinitie For it is so farre of that of this place M. Horne may make any ground for the Ecclesiasticall authoritye of Princes that it doth not as much as inferre that we ought to pay so much as tribute to our Princes but only that we may paie it For the question was framed of the captious Iewes not whether they ought but whether they might lawfully paie any tribute to Caesar. Whiche was then an externall and an infidell Prince For if M. Horne will say those woordes importe a precise necessitie he shall haue muche a doe to excuse the Italians Frenchmen Spaniardes and our Nation which many hundred yeares haue paid no tribute to Caesar. But I pray you M. Horne why haue you defalked and curtailed Christes aunswere Why haue you not set forth his whole and entier sentence Geue to Caesar that belongeth to Caesar and to God that belongeth to God which later clause I am assured doth much more take away a supreme regiment in al causes Ecclesiastical then necessarily by force of any wordes binde vs to paie yea any tribute to our Prince And wil ye see how it happeneth that Hosius a great learned and a godly Bishoppe of Spaine as M. Horne him selfe calleth him euen by this verye place proueth against the Emperour Constantius and telleth it him to his face that he had nothing to doe with matters Ecclesiasticall Whose woordes we shall haue an occasion hereafter to rehearse Yea S. Ambrose also vseth the same authoritie to represse the like vsurped authoritie of Valentinian the yonger This ill happe hath M. Horne euen with his first authoritie of the new Testament extraordinarie and impertinentlie I can not tell howe chopped in to cause the leaues of his boke and his lies to make the more mouster and shew But nowe whereas this place serueth nothing for any authoritie Ecclesiasticall in the Prince and least of all for his preeminent and peerlesse authoritie in all causes Ecclesiasticall as M. Horne fansieth Yet least any man being borne doune with the great weight of so mightie a proufe should thinke the Princes power infinite M. Horne to amende this inconuenience of his greate gentlenes thought good to preuent this mischief and to admonish the Reader therof and that his meaning is not by this place to geaue him an infinite authoritie or without limites but such onely as is bounded and circumscribed within the boundes of Gods worde and least ye should mistake him he would himself so to be vnderstanded Which is for al this solemnitie but a foolish and a friuolous admonitiō without any cause or groūd ād groūded only vpō M. Horns fantistical imaginatiō and not vpon Christ as he surmiseth Who willeth that to be geauen to Caesar that is Caesars and to God that is Gods but determineth and expresseth nothing that is to be geuen to Caesar but only paiement of money And yet if we consider as I haue saied what was the question demaunded it doth not determine that neither
his own supreme Authority depose and set vp bisshops and Priests make Iniunctions of doctrine prescribe order of Gods seruice enact matters of religion approue and disproue Articles of the faith take order for administration of Sacraments commaunde or put to silence preachers determine doctrine excommunicat and absolue with such like which all are causes ecclesiastical and al apperteyning not to the inferiour ministerye which you graunt to Priestes and bisshops onely but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernment which you doe annexe to the Prince onely This I say is the state of the Question now present For the present Question betwene you and M. Fekenham is grounded vppon the Othe comprised in the Statute which Statute emplieth and concludeth al these particulars For concealing whereof you haue M. Horne in the framing of your ground according to the Statute omitted cleane the ij clauses of the Statute folowing The one at the beginning where the Statute saith That no forayn person shall haue any maner of Authority in any spirituall cause within the Realme By which wordes is flatly excluded all the Authority of the whole body of the Catholike Church without the Realme As in a place more conuenient toward the end of the last book it shal by Gods grace be euidently proued The other clause you omitte at the ende of the said Satute which is this That all maner Superiorities that haue or maye lawfully be exercised for the visitatiō of persons Ecclesiasticall and correcting al maner of errours heresies and offences shall be for euer vnited to the Crowne of the Realme of Englande Wherein is employed that yf which God forbidde a Turke or any heretike whatsoeuer shoulde come to the Crowne of Englande by vertu of this Statute and of the Othe al maner superioritye in visiting and correcting Ecclesiastical persones in al maner matters should be vnited to him Yea and euery subiecte should sweare that in his conscience he beleueth so This kinde of regiment therefore so large and ample I am right wel assured ye haue not proued nor euer shal be able to proue in the auncient Church while ye liue When I say this kinde of regiment I walke not in confuse and general words as ye doe but I restrayne my self to the foresaid particulars now rehersed and to that platte forme that I haue already drawen to your hand and vnto the which Maister Fekenham must pray you to referre and apply your euidences Otherwise as he hath so may he or any man els the chiefe pointes of all being as yet on your side vnproued still refuse the Othe For the which doinges neither you nor any man else can iustly be greued with him As neither with vs M. Horne ought you or any mā els be greued for declaring the Truth in this point as yf we were discōtēted subiects or repyning against the obediēce we owe to our Gracious Prince and our Countre For beside that we ought absolutely more obey God then man and preferre the Truth which our Sauiour himself protested to be encouraging al the faithful to professe the Truth and geuing them to wit that in defending that they defended Christ himself before al other worldly respects whatsoeuer beside al this I say whosoeuer wil but indifferently consider the matter shal see that M. Horne himselfe in specifying here at large the Quenes Mai. gouernement by the Statute intended doth no lesse in effect abridge the same by dissembling silence then the Catholikes doe by open and plain contradiction For whereas the Statute and the Othe to the which all must swere expresseth A supreme gouernment in al thinges and causes without exception Maister Horne taking vpon him to specifie the particulars of this general decree and amplyfying that litle which he geueth to the Quenes Maiesty with copy of wordes ful statutelyke he leaueth yet out and by that leauing out taketh from the meaning of the Statute the principal cause ecclesiasticall and most necessary mete and conuenient for a Supreme Gouernour Ecclesiasticall What is that you aske Forsoth Iudgement determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise For what is more necessary in the Churche then that the Supreme gouernour thereof should haue power in al doubtes and controuersies to decide the Truthe and to make ende of questioning This in the Statute by Maister Hornes silence is not comprised And yet who doubteth that of al thinges and causes Ecclesiastical this is absolutelye the chiefest Yea and who seeth not that by the vertue of this Statute the Quenes Maiesty hath iudged determined and enacted a new Religiō contrary to the iudgement of all the Bisshops and clergy in the Conuocation represented of her highnes dominions Yea and that by vertue of the same Authority in the last paliament the booke of Articles presented and put vp there by the consent of the whole conuocation of the newe pretended clergy of the Realme and one or ij only excepted of al the pretended Bisshops also was yet reiected and not suffred to passe Agayne preachinge the woorde administration of the Sacramentes binding and loosing are they not thinges and causes mere Spirituall and Ecclesiasticall And howe then are they here by you omitted Maister Horne Or howe make you the Supreme gouernment in al causes to rest in the Quenes Maiesty yf these causes haue no place there Which is nowe better I appeale to al good consciences plainly to maintayne the Truthe then dissemblinglye to vpholde a falshood Plainly to refuse the Othe so generallye conceyued then generally to sweare to it beinge not generallye meaned But now let vs see how M. Horne wil direct his proufes to the scope appointed THE SECOND BOOKE DISPROVING THE PRETENSED PRActise of Ecclesiastical gouernement in Emperours and Princes of the first .600 yeares after Christ. M. Horne The .28 Diuision pag. 19. b. Constantinus of vvhose careful gouernmēt in Church causes I haue spoken somevvhat before tooke vpon him and did exercise the 70. supreme rule and gouernement in repressing al maner Idolatrie and false Relligion in refourming and promoting the true religion and in restreining and correcting al maner errours schismes heresies and other enormities in or about religion and vvas moued herevnto of duety euen by Gods vvorde as he him self reporteth in a vehemēt prayer that he maketh vnto God saiyng I haue takē vpō me and haue brought to passe helthful things meaning reformation of Religion being perswaded therevnto by thy word And publishing to all Churches after the Councel at Nice vvhat vvas there done he professeth that in his iudgement the chiefest end and purpose of his Imperial gouernement ought to be the preseruation of true religiō and godly quietnes in al Churches I haue iudged saith this godlye Emperoure this ought before all other thinges to be the ende or purpose wherevnto I should addresse my power and authority in gouernement that the vnitie of faith pure loue and agreemēt of religiō towardes the
For it is Athanasius M. Horne that being restored as I haue said by Constantines last wil and Testament and after againe the secoÌ„d time banished vnder the Arrian Emperour Constantius by the meanes also of those Arrian Bishops appealed to Pope Iulius as his competent and ordinarye Iudge and was by him restored to his Bishoprike together with many other Bishops of the East Paulus of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucius of Adrianople with many other appealing then likewise to Pope Iulius It is Athanasius that saith When was it heard from the creation of the worlde that the iudgement of the Church shoulde take his authoritie from the Emperour And what coulde that learned Father saye more directlye againste you and your whole booke M. Horne Verely either that most learned and auncient Father whom the most famous Fathers of al Christendome haue alwaies from time to time reuerenced and honoured as a most glorious light and a singular piller of Gods Church either that moste excellent Bisshop I say in whose praise euen out of the testimonies only of the best writers a iust Treatise might be gathered did fouly erre and misse of the truth either you M. Horne and your fellowes are in a great errour and do defend an exceding absurditie damnable both to you and all that followe you forswearing your selues by booke Othe when yee swere that in conscience you beleue which you ought not ones so much as to thinke For see yet what this Notable Bisshop pronounceth against you It is Athanasius that saieth it If this be the iudgement of bishops what hath the Emperour to doe with it Els if Caesars threates conclude these matters to what purpose haue men the Names of Bisshoppes Contrary wise say you M. Horne It is a principal part of the Princes royall power to haue the supreme gouernement in al maner causes Ecclesiastical or Spiritual O Barbarous heresye from the creation of the worlde neuer heard of before O Antichristian presumption I say Antichristian presumption I lerne of that most constant bisshop Athanasius so to say For it is he that saieth these woordes What hath Constantius omitted that is not the parte of an Antichrist Or what can he when he cometh doe more Or howe shall not Antichrist at his coming finde a ready way prepared for him of this Emperour to deceiue men For nowe againe in stede of the Ecclesiastical iudgement he appointeth his palace to be the benche for Ecclesiasticall causes to be hearde at Seque earum litium summum principem et Authorem facit And he maketh himself the Supreme gouernour and chief doer of those controuersies he speaketh of ecclesiastical Now M. Horne not our Gracious Soueraigne of her owne desire taketh vppon her such gouernment but you most miserable clawebackes and wretched flatterers do force her Grace to take that Title the taking and practising whereof by the assured verdyt of this most lerned Father is a plaine Antichristian presumption For loe what he saieth yet agayne in the same page Who is it that seing the Emperour to make him selfe the Prince of bisshops in decreeing of matters and to be president ouer Eccleclesiasticall iudgements may not worthâ—ly say that this Emperour is the very abhomination of the dâ—solation which was foretolde by Daniel See and beholde M. Horn what a most horrible absurdity you labour in your booke to persuade See to what an extreme inconuenience you force mens consciences when you tendre them the Othe comprising the same and more which here Athanasius accompteth the practise of Antichrist Se last of all what traytours you are to God and your Prince which haue persuaded her most Gracious highnes to take vpon her such kinde of gouernment which is a preparation to Antichrist and resembleth the abhomination of desolation foretolde by Daniel And thus much your own Author Athanasius You see how wel he speaketh for you Now that you alleage out of Socrates that Constantin threatened Athanasius he should be brought whether he would or no it anaunceth nothing the Authority of Constantine in Ecclesiasticall matters For so much manye a Prince doth to him that lawfully called to a Councel will not come at the Churches commaundement Wherein he is rather a Ministerial then a principall doer Neither doth the place by you alleaged out of Socrates proue that Constantine examined and iudged the doings of the whole Councell but onely whether they had proceded against Athanasius of enmity or malice And as Socrates there writeth Constantin sayde the suyte of Athanasius was that in his presence he might being driuen thereto by necessyty complaine of such iniuries as he had suffred And it appereth by Theodoretus by you alleaged in the said first booke that the determination and definition of these matters rested in the Bisshops the execution in the Prince For the labour of Constantine with Athanasius then was onelye that he woulde appeare before a Synode of Bisshoppes which had accused him diuerslye before the Emperour and of those Bisshoppes be tryed Which the Emperour did as Theodoret writeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Beleuing the accusers of Athanasius as Priestes and thinkinge their accusations to be true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For he was vtterly ignorant of their deceytes and craftly dealinges saieth Theodoret. Thus he iudged not him selfe ouer Athanasius but only procured that to kepe peace in the Churche the bisshops might assemble together and trye their own matter among them selues M. Horne The .33 Diuision Pag. 22. a. There vvere no Churche mattiers or Ecclesiastical causes vvherein the continual practise of the Churche of Christe in this Emperours tyme yea and many hundreth yeeres after did not attribute the .80 supreme rule order and authority vnto Emperours and Kinges vpon vvhome .81 al Churche mattiers did depende as vvitnesseth Socrates vvho shevveth this reason of that he doth thoroughout his Ecclesiasticall History mention so much the Emperours Because that of the Emperors saith he after they beganne to be Christians the Churche matters doe depende yea the greatest Councels haue bene and are called together according to their appointment Eusebius commendeth the great bountifulnes of Constantine tovvardes all estates But saith he this Emperour had a singular care ouer Goddes Churche for as one appointed of God to be a common or vniuersall Bisshop he called Synodes or conuocations of Goddes ministers together into one place that thereby he might appeace the conteÌ„tious striuinges that were amonge them in sundry places He disdayned not to be present with theÌ„ in their Synodes and to sit in the middest of theÌ„ as it had been a meaner personage coÌ„mending and approuing those that bente them selues of good meaning to godly vnity and shewed him self to mislike on the other side and to set naught by such as were of contrary disposition Stapleton The general assertion that M. Horne here auoucheth that in Constantynes tyme the continuall practise of the Churche attributed
The vvhiche vvas proued ouer true not onely in the elections of the Bishoppes of old Rome but also in many Bishoppes of other Cities especially of nevve Rome These diseases in the Churche ministers and the disorders thereout springyng the Emperours from time to time studied to cure and refourme vvherefore Theodosius and Valentinianus vvhen they savve the great hoouing and shoouinge at Constantinople about the election of a Bishop after the death of Sisinius some speakinge to preferre Philippus other some Proclus both being ministers of that Churche did prouide a remedy for this michiefe to vvitte they them selues .123 made a decree that none of that Church should be Bishop there but some straunger from an other Churche and so the Emperours sent to Antioche for Nestorius vvho as yet vvas thought both for his doctrine and life to be a sitte pastor for the flocke and made him Bishop of Constantinople Stapleton This man is nowe againe in hande with the Emperours ordinance concerning the election of the Bishop of Constantinople but by the way or being as he is in dede al out of his waye and matter to he towcheth what slaughter there was at Rome when Damasus was made Pope and so rūneth backe agayne out of the way and out of his matter which he might ful wel haue let alone sauing that he would shewe his great familiaritie and affinitie with Iulian the Pelagian Who for lacke of good matter to iustify his own and to infringe the Catholik doctrine fel to controlle the Catholikes for their manners and namely for this dissention at the creation of Damasus Of which cotentiō Sabellicus saith M. Horne speaketh and Volaterranus sayeth it was not without much bloudshed As though Sabellicus said not also that the matter was tried with strokes But where to finde or seke it in either of them M. Horne leaueth vs to the wide worlde But what is this M. Horne against Damasus Primacie who was also a true and a good godly learned Bishop whom S. Hierome for all this contention recognised as head of the Churche and as greate a Clerke as he was yet being in doubte by reason of diuerse sectes about Antiochia in Syria with what persons to communicate moste humbly requireth of him to knowe with whom he should communicate and with whom he should not communicate What is then your argumēt M. Horne Is it this Damasus entred into the See of Rome by force and bloudshed Ergo the Emperour at that time was Supreme gouernour in all causes Ecclesiasticall Verely either this is your argumēt or els you make here none at al but only tel forth a story to no purpose except it be to deface the holy Apostolik See of Rome which in dede serueth euer your purpose both in bookes and in pulpitts What so euer it be you haue in hand beside the Pope may not be forgotten Now that you tel vs of a decree made by th' Emperours Theodosius and Valentinianus that none of the Churche of Constantinople should be Bysshop there but some straunger frō an other Churche you tell vs a mere vntruth Your alleaged Authors Socrates and Liberatus speake no one woorde of any such Decree The words of Liberatus who translated in maner the wordes of Socrates are these Sisinius being departed it semed good to the Emperours to appoint none of the Church of Constantinople to be bisshop there but to send for som straunger from Antioch in Syria from whence they had a little before Iohn Chrysostome and to make him Bisshop And this worde for worde hath also Socrates but he addeth more 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Because of the vaine triflers and busy heades that were of that Churche Of any Decree that the Emperor should make none of them both doe mention But at that time only the case then in Constantinople so standing and their luck before being so good in Iohn Chrysostom who from a stranger became their bishop it pleased the Emperours so to doe And al this they did by way of prouision for the Church quiet not by waye of absolute authority or any forceable Decree as M. Horn fableth and ouer reacheth his Authors M. Horne The .44 Diuision pag. 28. b. As Constantinus and Theodosius the elder euen so Theodosius the seconde a very .124 godly Emperour hauing and practising the .125 supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes seeinge the horrible Heresies spronge vp and deuidinge the Church but specially by Nestorius did 126 by his authoritie cal the thirde general councel at Ephesus named the first Ephesine councel geuinge streight .127 commaundement to al Bishops vvheresoeuer that they shoulde not faile to appeare at the time appointed and further vsed the same povver and authoritie in the ordering and gouerninge thereof by his .128 Lieutenaūt Ioannes Comes Sacrensis that other Godly Emperours had beene accustomed to vse before him ▪ accordinge to the cōtinual practise of the Churche as it is plainely set foorth in the booke of general Councelles In this councel there happened so greuous contention betvvixt Cyrillus Bishop of Alexandria and Iohn Bishop of Antioche both beyng othervvise godly and learned mē that the councel vvas diuided thereby into tvvo partes the occasion of this Schisme vvas partely that Cyrillus and certaine other vvith him had proceeded to the cōdemnation of Nestorius before that Ioānes vvith his cōpany could com ād partly for that Ioānes of Antioch suspected Cyrillus of certain Heresies misdeeming that Ciril had made the more haste to confirme them before his comminge He therefore vvith his associates complaineth and laieth to Cyrilles chardge that he did not tary according to the commaundement of the Emperour for the comming of the Bisshops of other Prouinces vvhich vvere called thither frō all partes by the cōmaundement of the Emperour That vvhan the noble Earle Candidianus commaunded him by vvriting and vvithout vvriting that he should presume no suche matter but that he and those that vvere vvith him should abide the comming of the other Bishops neuer thelesse he proceeded that he and his company vvere the authours of dissension and discord in the Church ▪ and that they had geuē the occasion that the rules of the Fathers and the decrees of the Emperours vvere broken ▪ and trodē vnder foote vvherefore they iudge Cyrill of Alexādria vvith Memnō bisshop of Ephesus to be deposed frō their bisshopriks and Ecclesiastical ministery and the other their associates to be excōmunicate The vvhich their doinges they signifie to the Emperour Theodosius by their Synodical letters to vnderstande his pleasure in .129 allovving or disallovvyng of their Synodicall actes After this came the bishop of Romes legates before vvhome in the coūcel Cyrillus and Memnō offered vp their libelles deposing a contestation againste Iohn and his party to haue them cited and render the cause of their deposition The bisshoppe of Romes legates vvith the consent of the councell on that parte sendeth for Ioannes and his parties
that the Bishops would not assemble onlesse th'Emperour would be there personally for feare of seditiō and tumult of Eutyches disciples It was therfore translated to Chalcedo being nigh to Constantinople that the Emperour might be there the more cōmodiously And so that which was done by the good Emperor to assure ād honour th'Eclesiastical authority ye turne it to the hinderance and derogation of it But in the supplicatiō of Eusebius which you haue put so at large in your booke it is a world to see how vntruly you haue dealt partly with nipping of sentences in the midst partly with false translation First you leaue out at the very begīning of the Bishops supplication wherin he shortly declareth the whole effect of his request saiyng The entēt and purpose of your clemency is to prouide for all your subiects and to helpe all that are iniuriously oppressed but especially such as beare the office of Priesthod By this beginning it appereth the Bishop requested onely the Emperours external and ciuill power for redresse and help against iniuries And because this should not so appere you thought good to leaue it quite out Againe in the processe where the sayed Bisshoppe saieth Prostrate we beseech your clemencie that ye will commaund Dioscorus to answere to the matters we shall obiect against him It fololoweth which you leaue out the euidences of his doinges against vs being read in this Councell by which words the bishop required the Councel to be his Iudge not the Emperor and least that shuld appere you leaue it out At the end where the latine hath perferre ad scientiam vestrae pietatis omnia quae geruntur you turne it to make relation of all thin-that are don to be iudged where you haue put in these words to be iudged of your own liyng liberality more then your latine hath and al to persuade that the bishoppe requested here the Emperoure to be the Iudge betweene Dioscorus and him Which if ye had put in the whole wordes of your Author would haue easely appeared nothing so but rather the contrarye as by the places by you omitted and nowe by me expressed the circumspect Reader may sone perceiue Thus like as your doctrine so is your manner of writing false vnperfect and vntrue Againe in all this tale Maister Horne though you tell vs at large howe the Emperoures Marcian and Valentinian sente their letters of Summons to all Bisshoppes commaunding them c. Yea adding threattes and punishmentes to those that refused to come at appointmente Yet you tell vs nothing that the Emperoure firste wrote vnto Pope Leo and obteined his consente and Authoritye And then that in his letters of Summones to al Bishops certified them expressely of the Popes pleasure and last of all that the Popes Legates required the Emperours to be presente personallye at the Councell or els they woulde not come there them selues All this yow lette passe In deede it maketh not for yow But it sheweth against yow and for vs very well and plainely that the supreme summon and citing of the bishops to that general Councel yea and the Emperours owne presence there proceded directlye and principally from the Pope and his Legats It declareth well the Popes supremacy in that affaire as we shal in many other moe pointes decypher vnto yow anon more at large Neyther doth the Emperour vse in his letters of Sūmon the wordes of commaundemente but saith Venire dignemini Vouchesafe ye to come And againe Adhortamur we exhort you to come This was the practise of Emperours as I haue noted before out of Cusanus by the way of exhortation to call Councels not by forceable cōmandement by threates and punishmēt as you vntruely report M. Horne The .48 Diuision pag. 31. b. The Emperour assigneth Iudges and 143. rulers in the Sinode about .24 of the chiefest of his Nobles and Senatours After al the Bishoppes and the Iudges vvere assembled in the councell house vvhiche vvas in S. Euphemies Church the Emperour Martianus vvith Pulcheria entreth in amongst them and maketh an Oration vnto the vvhole Councel to this effecte First he declareth vvhat zeale and care he hath for the maintenance and furtherance of true Religiō Then he shevveth that partely the vanitie partely the auarice of the teachers had caused the * discorde and errour in Religion He addeth the cause vvherefore he chardged them vvith this trauaile And last of all he .144 prescribeth a fourme after vvhich they must determine the matters in controuersy This done the Iudges sate doune in their places and the Bisshoppes arovve some on the right hand and others on the left hande And vvhan that Dioscorus vvas accused and the Iudges vvilled him to vse his lavvfull defence there began to be amōgst the Bisshops vvhote scholes vvanting some modesty vvherefore the Iudges at the first stayed them vvith milde vvordes VVilling them to auoide confusion but being earnest they ouershot the modesty of so graue men vvherefore the honourable Iudges and Senate of the Laity appointed by the Emperour did reproue them saying These popular acclamations neither becommeth Bisshoppes neither yet helpe the parties be ye quiet therefore and suffer all thinges to be rehersed and heard in order with quietnes VVhen the Iudges and Senate had duely examined the causes they gaue .145 sentence to depose Dioscorus and others So that this their iudgement semed good to the Emperour to whom they referred the whole matter The .13 Chapter Of the Chalcedon Councell and how the Emperour with his deputies dealed therin Stapleton WE are now in order come to the Coūcel of Chalcedo the actes whereof being very long and tedious the leaues in the great volume rising to the number of one hundred and more M. Horne hath here and there pried out good matter as he thinketh to depresse the Popes primacie withal Wherein he so handleth himselfe that he semeth to me for many causes neuer to haue read the acts but to haue taken things as they came to his handes ministred by his friends or by his Latine Maisters Ones this is sure that for some of his allegations a man may pore in the booke til his eies dasel againe and his head ake ere he shal find them and in such prolixitie of the matter when he hath found them and well weighed them a man would thinke that M. Horne had either lost his wits or els were him selfe a sleape when he wrote those arguments or els which is worst of al that he was past al shame and grace For as ye saw good Readers the Ephesine so shall ye now see the Councell of Chalcedo by no cleare candle or torche but all in a darke horne Wherein he playeth like a false wilie marchaunte that will not shewe his wares but in a darke shoppe But by Gods helpe I shall bring his naughty marchādise into the bright shining light that al men may openly at the eye see al the leudnes of it
articles of his faith he coÌ„cludeth vvith an earnest exhortation vnto the vnitie of faith The Emperour saith Liberatus supposing that Ioannes de Thalaida had not ment rightly of the ChalcedoÌ„ couÌ„cel but had doÌ„ al things fainedly vvrote his letters by the persvvasioÌ„ of Acatius to Pergamius Apolonius his Lieutenantes to .161 depose Iohn and enstal Peter Mogge Iohn being thus thrust out repaired to the B. of Antioche vvith vvhose letters of coÌ„mendacion he vveÌ„t to SiÌ„pliciê° bishop of Rome and desired him to vvrite in his behalfe vnto Acatiê° bishoppe of Constantinople vvho did so and vvithin a vvhile after died Stapleton The like drifte as before followeth nowe also and therfore the lesse nede of any long or exquisite answer Sauing that a few things are to be coÌ„sidered aswel for the weighing of M. Hornes reasons as for such matters as make for the popes primacye euen in those stories that M. Horne reherseth As that pope Simplicius of whome M. Horne maketh mention excommunicated Peter the Bishop of Alexandria here mentioned benig an Eutychian Again that Acatius bishop of Constantinople here also recited by M. Horne was also excoÌ„municated by pope Felix What saieth M. Horn a buttoÌ„ for your popes curse If that be a matter ecclesiastical our Emperors haue cursed aswel as your popes EueÌ„ our Emperour Zeno that we are nowe in hand withal Say you me so M. Horne Then shew me I beseche you by what authority For no man you say your selfe afterward hath authority to excoÌ„municate but only the Church and those who receiue authority therevnto by coÌ„mission from the Churche Thus you say euen in this booke Bring forth then the Emperours coÌ„mission Otherwise thinke not we will crie sanctus sanctus to all ye shal say And if you bring forth the coÌ„mission then are you vndone and al your primacy For if the Emperour hath his commission from the Church then belike the Church is aboue him Onlesse as ye haue found a newe diuinitie so ye can find a new lawe wherby he that taketh the coÌ„missioÌ„ shal be aboue him that geueth it This curse then M. Horne was no ecclesiasticall curse no more surely then if you shuld if Maistres Madge played the shrewe with you be shrewe and curse to her shrewes heart It was a zelouse detestation of heretikes as if a good catholike man should nowe say cursed be al wicked Sacramentaries And whome I pray you did he curse Any trow ye that was not accursed before No but chiefly Nestorius and Eutyches which were before by general CouÌ„cels excoÌ„municated Yet for al that we haue our margent dasshed with a fresh iolye note that the princes supremacy is in al causes I pray God send you M. Horne as much worship of yt as ye had of your other late like marginall florishe owte of the Chalcedon Councell Yet let vs see what proufes ye lay forthe Why say you Was not Zeno required to cause an vnity in the church Ye mary was he and so was Constantine and Marcian to Yea Marcian for that was called the cheif phisition to But we neade not put you any more in remembrance hereof leaste ye take to muche pryde of yt Yea but zeno sayeth that after God all people shall bowe their neckes to his power It is so in dede M. Horne But onlesse ye can proue that he saied to his spiritual power which he said not nor meante not a good argument the more pittye hath quyte broken his necke Neither yet doth Zeno speake of the neckes of any his subiectes but as yt semeth of such nations as were his enimies And assuredly such woordes al pagan Emperours vse And yet they are not I trowe therefore supreme gouernours in al causes spiritual Now yt would require some tracte of tyme fully to open either howe M. Horne hath confounded maymed and mangled his authours narration or to shewe that these things euen in the true narration of the stories that he reherseth make fully agaiÌ„st him and for the Popes primacy For this Ioannes Talaida saieth Liberatus appealed to Pope Simplicius euen as Athanasius did Simplicius writeth to Acatius who answereth that he did all this withowt the Popes coÌ„sent by the Emperours commaundement for the preseruation of the vnity in the Church To whoÌ„ Simplicius replied that he ought not to communicate with Petrus Moggus for that he agreed to the Emperours order aÌ„d proclamatioÌ„ onlesse he woulde embrace the decrees of the CouÌ„cel of Chalcedo Thus letters going to and fro Simplicius died and Felix succedeth who doth both depriue him from his bisshoprike and excommunicateth him for taking part with the said Petrus Moggus After the death of Acatius succedeth Flauianus who woulde not suffer himselfe to be enstalled without the Popes consent Within shorte tyme Euphemius was Patriarche of Constantinople who receiued synodicall letters from this Pope These and manye other thinges else might here be said euen out of the chapter vpon which Maister Horne himselfe pleadeth which we passe ouer But for the Princes Supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical what hath M. Horne in al this diuision His marginal Note lyeth in the dust What hath he beside He saith The Emperor by his Lieutenants deposed Iohn Talaida the Patriarche of Antioche But this is vntrue The Emperour in dede commaunded his Lieutenants vt pellerent eum to expulse and driue him out from his bisshoprike but to depose him that is to make him now no Bishop at all that lay not in the Emperours power He did as merely of him selfe a wise prelate said in King Edwardes dayes being then in the Tower for the Catholike faieth but take awaye the Ricke Iohn remayned bisshop stil. And that with this Iohn Talaida so it was appereth well by Liberatus your owne Author M. Horne For this Iohn Talaida saieth Liberatus appealinge from the Emperours violence to Pope Simplicius habeÌ„s episcopi dignitatem remansit Romae remayned at Rome hauing stil the dignity of a bishop who also afterwarde had the Ricke also For the Pope endewed him with the bishoprike of Nola in Campania Now as Emperours and Princes haue power though not lawful to expelle and depriue men of the Church from their temporal dignities and possessions so to depriue a man of the Church from his office of ministery to depose a bisshop or a priest froÌ„ his spiritual IurisdictioÌ„ and Authority which deposition only is a cause ecclesiastical to the Church only froÌ„ whom such Authority came it belongeth Princes depriuations are no ecclesiastical depositions Take this answere ones for al M. Horne you which vntruly reporte that Princes deposed bisshops M. Horne The .57 Diuision Pag. 35. a. This Pope Simplicius considering the great contentions that vvere accustomably about the election of Popes did prouide by decree that no Pope should hereafter be chosen vvithout the authority of the Prince vvhich decree although it be not extant yet it is manifest inough by the Epistle of Kinge Odoacer put into
ordinary and an vsual course by the Bishops first deposed But because the matter is not cleare on your side and if it were it did not greatly enforce by reason Anastasius him selfe was a wicked hereticall Emperour and so no great good deduction to be made from his doings I let it passe M. Horne The .60 Diuision pag. 35. b. About the election of Symachus Platina mentioneth vvhat great diuision and sedition arose in so muche that the parties vvere faine to agree to haue a Councell holden for the determination of the matter And there was a Councell appointed at Rauenna saith Sabellicus to the end that the controuersy might be decided according to right before the king Theodoriche before vvhome the matter vvas so discussed that at the last this Pope Symachus vvas confirmed Neuerthelesse this fyer vvas not thus so quite quenched but that foure yeares after it blased out sorer againe VVhereat the king saieth Platina beinge displeased sente Peter the Bisshoppe of Altine to Rome to enioye the See and bothe the other to be .164 deposed VVherevpon an other Synode vvas called of 120. Bisshops vvherein saith Sabellicus the Pope him selfe defended his ovvne cause so stoutlye and cunningly and confuted saith Platina al the obiections laid against him that by the verdict of them all he vvas acquited and all the fault laied to Laurence and Peter Stapleton What may be said for the doings of Princes in the election of the Clergie and how your examples agree not with our practise I haue already saied somewhat and that I say to this too But in the Diuision folowing we shall saye to this more particularlye M. Horne The .61 Diuision pag. 35. b. But to th entent it may the better appere vvhat vvas the Kings authority about these matters mark the fourth Romaine Synode holden in the time of this Symachus and about the same matter of his vvhiche although it be mangled and confusedly set forth in the Booke of Generall Councels bicause as it may seeme that they .165 vvould not haue the vvhole trueth of this dissention appaare yet vvil it shevv much that the Princes had .166 no small entermedling and authority in Synodes and Churche matters This Synode vvas summoned to be kept in Rome by the .167 commaundement of the most honorable Kinge Theodoriche He declareth that many and grieuous complaintes vvere brought vnto him againste Symachus Bisshoppe of Rome Symachus commeth into the Synode to ansvvere for him selfe geaueth thankes to the King for calling the Synode requireth that he may be restored to suche things as he had loste by the suggestion of his ennemies and to his former state and then to come to the cause and to ansvvere the accusers The more parte in the Synode thoughte this his demaunde reasonable Decernere tamen aliquid Synodus sine regia notitia non Praesumpsit Yet the Synode presumed not to decree any thing without the Kings knowledge Neyther came it to passe as they vvisshed for the King commaunded Symachus the Bisshoppe of Rome to ansvvere his aduersaries before he shoulde resume any thing And .168 so the King committed the vvhole debating and iudging of the mater to the Synode vvhich concludeth the sentence vvith these vvords Vvherfore according to the Kings will or cōmaundement who hath committed this cause to vs we refourme or restore vnto him to Symachus what right so euer he ought to haue within the Citie of Rome or without Stapleton Here hath M. Horne an other fetch to proue Princes to haue the chief interest in maters ecclesiastical as for the depositions of Bishops yea of the Pope him selfe And first he is angry that this mater in the boke of Councels is so mangled and confusedly set foorth But it is an other thorne then this that pricketh him that he will not disclose to all the worlde For to saye the truthe he seeth in his owne conscience that of all Councelles the selfe same Councell that he here alleageth dothe so set foorth the Popes Primacie that the grieuouse remembrance therof causeth him to speake he can not tel what Verelye if M. Horne had stepped foorth but one fote further and turned his eie vpon the next leafe there should he haue found a clercklie worke made by Eunodius in the defence of the Councell that he is in hand withall There should he haue founde most euident authorities for the Popes Supremacie vppon all states temporall and spirituall He should also finde the same booke to be confirmed by CC. and .xxx. Bishops assembled at Rome in a Synode Leaue of therfore M. Horne this complaint and complaine of that that grieueth you in dede and that is not of confusion but of the confession ye find there of all the Bishops concerning the Ecclesiasticall praeeminence liyng so open and thicke like a great block in your way that ye coulde not passe ouer to these your allegations that you haue here patched in but that you must needes stumble and breake your shinnes therat which grieueth you ful sore But let vs now see what good and holsome herbes ye being so cunning a gardener haue gathered out of this garden that as ye thinke lieth so vnhāsomlie and sluttishly Ye say first that this Councell was called by the cōmaundement of the right honorable King Theodoriche Make him as honorable as ye wil. But other then an Arrian shal ye not make of him Yf ye knew he was an Arrian your honour might haue bene better bestowed els where If ye knewe it not then is your reading to small I trow to furnish such a boke as this is And yet to say the truthe small reading will serue the turne too Ye say he called a Councell So he did But how did he call it Forsoth with the cōsent of the Pope Symachus though the Coūcel were called against him For when the Bisshops had tolde the King that the Pope him selfe ought to call Councels by a singular priuilege due to the See of Rome because to that See first the merite ād principality of S. Peter ād after the authority of Coūcels singulorum in Ecclesijs tradidit potestatem gaue power ouer euery thing in the Churches the Kinge made aunsweare that the Pope had declared his consente to it by his letters Yea and the Bishops not satisfied with the Kings so saiyng required a sight of the Popes letters which the King shewed vnto them out of hād The Pope also him self being present licensed the Bishops to examine his own matter And a litle after Affectu purgationis suae culmen humiliat For desire of purging himself he hūbleth his high authority or dignity Yet M. Horne addeth the Synode presumed not to decree any thing without the Kings knowledge Yf they had saied they ought not then had ye said somwhat But presume not and may not are two things farre a sonder Though yet in one sense in dede they might not nor ought not to haue proceded with
his doinges that M. Horne can not wel wreste them to his purpose For Iustinian saieth We following the holy fathers c. and so forth as we by many places of Iustinian haue declared before Againe speaking of things decreed in the Synod against Zoaras Your sentence saieth he being of power by yt seâ—fe our imperiall maiestye hath made yt yet muche stronger which doth expulse him out of this imperial City Lo M. Horn the decree of the Synode is stronge thoughe the Emperour neuer confirme it and where is then become your imperial primacye Nowe farder you heare to what purpose the princes assiste that is for the furtheraunce of the executioÌ„ The bishops had deposed Zoaras but they by their power coulde not thrust him out of the City and banishe him This must be don by the ciuil power and this did Iustinian and by that made the Councels lawe the stronger And so ye now heare of IustiniaÌ„ himself what is the meaning of that which you here and so often alleage that Princes streÌ„ghtheÌ„ the lawes of the Church And to shew that the Supreme gouernment which is the final Sentence and IudgemeÌ„t rested in the bisshops not in the Emperour in the first ActioÌ„ Theodorus the Emperours Officer bringeth in the playntif Bishops of Syria and saieth to the Synode Vt in his interpellantes vos ipsis finem imponatis To the entent that you considering these supplications maye make an ende of theÌ„ And in the same Action the Emperour himself againe affirmeth that As ofte as the SenteÌ„ce of the Priestes hath deposed any from their holy rowmes as vnworthy of priesthood so ofte the Empire was of the same minde and made the same order or coÌ„stitutioÌ„ with the Authority of the priestes Where you see M. Horne that the deposing of Priestes or Bishoppes proceded first from the Authority Sentence and Iudgement of the Priestes And was afterwarde putte in execution by the Imperial lawes That is to say all shortly The bishops deposed The Prince banished For by death in those dayes Princes proceded not against the clergy thoughe deposed and condemned in generall Councell I might nowe goe forwarde for any thing of weight remayning sauinge that your marginal note that the Emperour commaundeth the Pope to come to Councell stayeth me a litle as making some good apparance for you Ye say he commaunded the Pope but yf ye had proued withall that he had such authority to commaunde then would the matter ronne better on your syde or that ye could shewe that at this commaundemente he came to the Councel which ye are not able to shewe But yet am I able to shewe he came not So that this induceth rather the Popes primacy especially considering that he was at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople euen wheÌ„ the Councel was kept MarciaÌ„ also sent his letters to Pope Leo to come to Chalcedo aÌ„d yet he came not but sent his deputies thither for hiÌ„ M. Horne The .72 Diuision Pag. 41 b. The .199 Title prefixed to the first general Councel summoned by the commandement of Iustinian telleth in effect generally both the matter and also vvho had the chief authority in the ordering thereof for it is intituled The diuine ordinaunce and constitution of Iustinian the Emperor against Anthymus Seuerê° Petrus and Zoaras Mennas the vniuersal Archebisshop and Patriarche of Constantinople vvas present in this Councel vvho had adioyned vnto him placed on his right hande certain Bisshops coadiutours named and .200 appointed by the commaundement of the Emperour sent out of Italy from the sea of Rome VVhen they vvere set thus in Councel Themperour sent Theodorus one of the maisters of the Requestes or his Secretarie a vvise man vnto the Synode Bisshops Abbottes and many other of the cleargy vvith their billes of supplications vvhich they had put vp vnto themperour for redresse of certain matters Ecclesiastical Theodorus maketh relation vnto the Synode hereof deliuereth the Billes of supplication to be considered on presenteth the parties to the Synod and shevveth that this is themperours pleasure that they shoulde .201 dispatche and end these matters Paulus the Bisshoppe of Apamea in his bil of supplication offred to the most godly Emperour in the name of al his acknowledgeth him to be the highest Potentate in the worlde next vnto God who hath magnified his Empire and throweÌ„ his aduersaris vnder him because he mainteineth the only and pure faith offreth vnto God pure Leuen that is to say true doctrine as incense and burneth the chaffe meaning false religioÌ„ with vnquencheable fier And after the declaratioÌ„ of their Faith talking of the Eutychian or counterfaite catholike He desireth themperour to whom God hath reserued the ful authority to direct to cut him from the Churche and to expulse him out of his Dominions In like sort the religious men and the Monasteries of SecuÌ„da Syria doo offer vp a booke of supplication vnto the Emperour beseeching him that he vvil commaund the Archebishoppe Mennas president of the councel to receiue their booke and to .204 consider of it according to the Ecclesiastical Canons The Emperour maketh a lavv and constitution to ratifie and confirme the iudgement of the Synode against Anthymus and other heretiks vvherein also he decreeth touching many other ecclesiastical matters or causes as No man to Rebaptize to prophane the holy Communion to cal Conuenticles to dispute further in those matters concluded on to publishe or set forth the Heretical bookes to communicate with them And so knitteth vp all vvith this conclusion VVee haue decreed these thinges for the common peace of the most holye Churches these thinges haue we determined by sentence .205 Stapleton You goe on M. Horne euer like to your selfe and to your brother M. Iewel For as at the first you beginne with a great vntruthe so you procede on with a greate manye moe I meane not that ye cal the first for the fifte lette the printer beare this but for the residewe ye must take it vpon your own shulders As first wher ye speake of the title ther is no such title prefixed before the Councel there is such a sentence in dede But that it is a title prefixed before the Councel as though this ordination were made before the Councel and so should tel both the matters and who had the cheif authority in the ordering thereof this is no simple lie But euer ye shoote to farre or come to short home After those wordes by you rehersed yt followeth which you leaue out ad Petrum ArchiepiscopuÌ„ HierosolimoruÌ„ To Peter Archebishop of HierusaleÌ„ to whoÌ„ IustiniaÌ„ did send this coÌ„stitutioÌ„ not before the CouÌ„cel but the CouÌ„cel beiÌ„g ended The order of these sentences as it is declared in the acts of the CouÌ„cel was this First there was a senteÌ„ce geueÌ„ at CoÌ„stantinople against Anthymus TheÌ„ was there an other sentence geuen there against Seuerus Petrus and Zoaras TheÌ„ was the constitutioÌ„ of Iustinian whereof ye speake made and sente
impudently in going about to make your Readers belieue that Richaredus and other Princes after him were takē for Supreme heades of the Church till now in these later daies and most blasphemously in calling the Pope for this mater the childe of perdition As wel might you for this cause haue called Gregorie so too Who is surnamed as ye here write the Great But God wotteth and the more pitie not very great with you and your fellowes Of al bookes his writinges beare most ful and plaine testimonie for the Popes singular praeeminence whiche thing is in an other place by me largely proued that though the matter here semeth to require somewhat to be said I neede not say any thing but onely remit the Reader to that place where he shal finde that S. Gregorie practised this Supreme authoritie as wel in Spain as other where throughout the whole Christened world But what saith S. Gregorie Forsothe that the King Richaredus by his carefull and continuall preaching brought Arrians into the true faith S. Gregorie saith wel And yet you wil not I trow say The Prince himself preached in pulpit to the Arrians What then Verelye that which he did by his Clergie and to the which he was a godly promoter that he is saied to doe him selfe As to preache to conuert heretiques to decree this or that and briefely to gouerne in causes Ecclesiastical All which the Prince in his owne person or of his owne authority neuer dothe But by his furderance such things being done he is saied sometimes as here of Saint Gregorye to doe them him selfe We might now passe to the next mater sauing that as ye without any good occasion or bettering of your cause bring in that Richaredus woorked these thinges without Pope Gregorie So it may be feared ye haue a woorse meaning and that ye doe this altogeather craftely to blemishe and deface Sainte Gregorye with the ignoraunte Reader Els tell me to what purpose write ye that Saint Gregorye was asshamed of him selfe and his owne slacknesse Why bringe you in these woordes of Sainte Gregorye What shall I aunsweare at the dreadfull doome when youre excellencye shall lead with you flockes of faithfull ones which ye haue broughte into the true faithe by careful and continuall preachinges I muste then either to refourme your ignorance if ye knew it not before or to preuent your readers circumuention by your wilye handeling of the mater like to be perchaunce miscaried if ye knewe it before admonish you and him that this is spoken of S. Gregorye in deede but as proceeding from a maruelouse humilitye and lowlines In like maner as he wrote to Sainte Augustine oure Apostle in the commendation of his doings wherein yet vndoubtedly he was a great doer him selfe many wayes as by the Historie of Bede clerely appeareth Otherwise though Richaredus doings be most gloriouse and worthy of perpetuall renoune yet shal S. Gregory match him or passe him Neither shal he altogether be voide of his worthy cōmendation concerning his care for the refourming of Spaine and repressing of heresies there either by his authority or by his learned woorkes Verely Platina witnesseth that by the meanes of this Gregorie the Gothes returned to the vnite of the Catholike faithe Whiche appeareth not at that time any otherwhere then in Spaine Hearken farder what Nauclerus one that you ofte reherse in this your booke writeth of him In super Beatus Gregorius c. Beside this Saint Gregorie compelled the Ligurians the Venetians the Iberians which had confessed their schisme by their libell to receiue the Decrees of the Councell of Chalcedo and so broughte them to the vnitye of the Churche He reduced them from Idolatrye partely by punnisshmente partlye by preaching the Brucians the people of Sardinia and the husbandmenne of Campania By the good and mightye authoritie of his writings and by Ambassadours sente in conueniente time he sequestred from the bodye of the Churche the Donatiste Heretiques in Affrique the Maniches in Sicilie the Arrians in Spaine the Agnoites in Alexandria Onely the Heresie of the Neophites in Fraunce rising by Symoniacall bribes as it were by so manye rootes was spreade farre and wide againste the whiche he valiauntlye foughte labouring mightelye against it to the Queene Brunechildis and to the Frenche Kinges Theodoricus and Theodobertus till at the lengthe a Generall Councell beinge summoned he obteined to haue it vtterlye banned and accursed This saith Nauclerus of other Countries Now what nede I speake of our Realme the matter being so notoriouse that by his good meanes by his studye and carefulnes we were brought from most miserable idolatrie to the faith of Christe And therefore as our Venerable Countreyman Bede writeth we maye well and oughte to call him our Apostle Rectè nostrum appellare possumus debemus Apostolum Quia cum c. For saith he wheras he had the chiefe Bisshoprike in all the worlde and was the chiefe Ruler of the Churches that long before were conuerted to the faithe he procured oure Nation that before that time was the Idols slaue to be the Church of Christ. So that we may well vse that saiyng taken from the Apostle All were it that he were not an Apostle to other yet is he our Apostle We are the seal of his Apostlesship in our Lord God It appeareth that S. Gregorie had to doe in Ireland also by his Ecclesiastical authoritie Thus much haue I here spoken of S. Gregorie either necessarily or as I suppose not altogether without good cause Surely not without most deape harte griefe to consider how farre we are gon from the learning vertue and faith whiche we nowe almost one thousande yeares past receiued at this Blessed mans handes Which altogether with our newe Apostle M. Horne heere is nothing but Grosse ignorance And this blessed and true Apostle of our English Nation no better then the child of perdition That is as he meaneth in dede a plaine Antichriste I pray God ones open the eyes of our Coūtrie to see who is in dede the true Antichrist and who are his messengers and forerunners thereby carefully and Christianly to shun as well the one as the other Christ is the Truth it selfe as him selfe hath said Who then is more nere Antichriste then the teacher of Vntruthes And what a huge number hath M. Horne heaped vs vppe in that hitherto hath bene answered being litle more then the third part of his boke Yea in this very Diuision how doe they muster Some of them haue already ben touched But now to the rest more at large let vs ouer runne the Diuision shortly againe First besides his false translation putting for repairing the order of Ecclesiasticall discipline to make a new fourme thereof as though that King altered the old Religion of his realme and placed a newe neuer vsed before in Christes Churche as M. Horne and his fellowes haue done in our Countrie beside this pety
sleight and diuers other before noted he hath so maimed and mangled the wordes of King Richaredus wherein the whole pithe of this Diuision resteth to make some apparence of his pretensed Primacie that it would lothe a man to see it and weary a man to expresse it Namely in the text where his Note standeth of a Princes speciall care for his subiectes The whole woordes of the King are these The care of a King ought so farre to be extended and directed vntill it be found to receiue the full measure of age and knowledge For as in worldly things the Kings power passeth in glorie so oughte his care to be the greater for the welth of his subiectes But now moste holy Priestes we bestow not onely our diligence in those matters whereby oure subiectes may be gouerned and liue most peaceablye but also by the helpe of Christe we extend our selues to thinke of heauenly matters and we labour to knowe how to make our people faithfull And verely if we ought to bend all our power to order mens maners and with Princely power to represse the insolency of the euill if we ought to geue all ayde for the encrease of peace and quiet muche more we ought to study to desire and thinke vppon godly things to looke after high matters and to shew to our people being now brought from errour the trueth of cleare light For so he dothe whiche trusteth to be rewarded of God with aboundant reward For so he dothe which aboue that is cōmitted vnto him doth adde more seing to such it is said what so euer thou spendest more I when I come againe will recompence thee This is the whole and ful talke of Richaredus the king to the Councel touching his duetyfull care aboute religion Compare this gentle Reader with the broken and mangled narratiō of M. horne and thou shalt see to the eye his lewde pelting and pelting lewdnesse Thou shalt see that the king protested his care in gods matters to be not his dew charge and vocatiō as a king but an additiō aboue that which was commytted wnto him and to be a work of supererogatiō and that he extēded him selfe of zeale aboue that which his duety ād office required Al which M. Horn left out bycause he knewe it did quite ouerthrowe his purpose He saieth againe of kyng Richaredus that he decreed in the Councel of his owne Authority commaundyng the bisshops to see it obserued which wordes also he hath caused to be printed in a distinct lettre as the wordes of his Author alleaged But they are his owne wordes and do proceede of his owne Authority not to be found in the whole processe of the Kings Oration to the Councell or in the Coūcel it selfe But contrariwise the Councell expressely saith of this Decree Consultu pijssimi gloriosissimi Richaredi Regis constituit Synodus The Synode hath appointed or decreed by the aduise of the most godly and gloriouse King Richaredus The Synode M. Horne made that Decree by the aduise of the King The king made it not by his own authority commaunding c. as you very Imperiously do talke Againe where you saie that S. Gregory did much commend the carefull gouernement of Princes in causes of Religion S. Gregory speaketh not of any suche gouernement at all It is an other of your Vntruthes Last of all where Saint Gregorie sayeth of humilitie as we haue before declared to the king Et si vobiscum nihil egimus Although we haue done nothing with you You to amplifie the matter enlardge your translation with a very lying liberalitie thus Although I haue medled and don nothing at all with you doing this altogether without mee For these wordes medle at all and dooing this altogeather without me is altogeather without and beyond your Latine of Saint Gregorie Whome you ouerreache exceeding much Making him not so muche as to meddle with the Kings doings and that the king did altogeather without him Which yet if Nauclerus your common alleaged Author be true of his woorde did verye muche with the King and furdered many wayes the conuerting of the Arrians in Spaine to the Catholique faith But so it is As in al your proufes you ouerreach mightely the force of your examples cōcluding Supreme gouernmente in all causes when the Argumente procedeth of no gouernemente at all but of execution and so foorth euen so in your translations wherein yet you looke singularlye to be credited scarse ones in tenne leaues bringing one sentence of Latine you ouer reache marueilouslye your originall Authorities Suche is your vntrue and false dealing not onely here but in a manner throughout your whole booke And nowe to ende this Seconde booke with a flourishe of Maister Iewels Rhetorique to sweete your mouth at the ende Maister Horne that so with the more courage we may proceede after a pause vppon this to the Thirde and Fourthe let me spurre you a question What M. Horne Is it not possible your doctrine may stande without lyes So many Vntruthes in so litle roome without the shame of the worlde without the feare of God Where did Christe euer commaunde you to make your Prince the supreme gouernour in all causes By what Commission by what woordes Or if Christ did not who euer els cōmaunded you so to do What lawe What Decree what Decretall what Legantine what Prouinciall But what a wonderfull case is this The Supreame gouernemente of Princes in al causes Ecclesiastical that we must nedes swere vnto by booke othe yea and that we must nedes belieue in conscience to be so auncient so vniuersal so Catholique so cleere so gloriouse can not now be founde neither in the olde Law nor in the new nor by anye one example of the first 600. yeares THE THIRDE BOOKE DISPROVING THE PRETENSED PRACTISE OF Ecclesiastical gouernmēt in Emperors and Kings as wel of our own Countre of Englande as of Fraunce and Spayne in these later .900 yeres from the tyme of Phocas to Maximilian next predecessour to Charles the V. of famous memory M. Horne The .79 Diuision Fol. 47. b. Next after Sabinianus an obscure Pope enemy and successour to this Gregory succeded Bonifacius 3. VVho although he durst not in playne dealing denie or take from the Emperours the authoritie and iurisdiction in the Popes election and other Churche matters yet he vvas the first that .228 opened the gappe thereunto for as Sabel testifieth vvith vvhom agree all other vvriters for the moste parte This Bonifacius immediatly vpon the entraunce into his Papacy dealte with Phocas to winne that the Church of Rome might .229 be head of all other Churches the which he hardely obteined bicause the Grecians did chalenge that prerogatiue for Constantinople After he had obteyned this glorious and ambitious title of the bloudy tyrant Phocas and that vvith .230 no smal bribes like vnto one that hauing a beame in his ovvn eie vvent about to pul the mote out of
waye of oppression or threats as by vertue of his allegeance or in payne of displeasure but by gentle admonitions and requestes So did al the good Emperours before procede with bishops in ecclesiastical matters Constantin the first Theodosius the first and second Valentinian the first Marcian Iustinian and nowe this CoÌ„stantin the fyfte not as with their subiectes or vassals in that respect but rather as with their Fathers their pastours and by God appoynted Ouerseers The obedience then that pope Agatho so much and so ofte protested proceded of his owne humylytie not of the Emperours supremacy of greate discretion not of dewe subiection namelye in Ecclesiasticall causes For seinge the Emperour in his letters so meke so gracious and so lowly he could doe no lesse and the better man he was the more he did but shewe him selfe againe lowly and humble also But when Emperours would tyrannically take vpon them in Church matters there lacked not Catholike bishops as stoute and bolde then as the pope was humble nowe So were to Constantius that heretical tyran Liberius of Rome Hosius of Spayne and Leontius of the East So was to Valentinian the yonger S. Ambrose to Theodosius the seconde Leo the first to the Emperour Anastasius pope Gelasius to Mauritius S. Gregory But M. Horne if this do fayle hath yet ready at hand an other freshe iolye coulorable shifte that the Emperour euen by Agathos owne confession occupied the place and zele of our Lorde Iesu Christe in earth to geue iuste iudgement and sentence in the behalf of the truth Nowe are we dryuen to the harde wal in dede This geare ronneth roundly And yf I should nowe thowghe truelye interprete and mollifie thys sentence accordinge to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the mynde of the speaker then woulde you so vrge and presse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the bare letter that I shulde haue much a doe to rydde my handes of you But God be thanked who hath so prouided that Agatho him self doth so plainely declare his owne meaninge and your false handling of the matter euen in the verie nexte sentence immediatly folowing that al the worlde may euidently see that for al your holy euangelical pretences and cloked cowlours ye seke not the trowthe but to tryfle to toy and contentiouslie to confounde all thinges For it followeth That ye woulde voutchsauf saieth Pope Agatho to the Emperour to exequute the cause of Christes fayth according to equitye and the instructions of the holy fathers and the fyue generall Councells and by Gods helpe to reuenge his iniurie vppon such as condemne his faythe And this saying of Agatho M. Horne may wel serue for a ful and a sufficiente answere to al your boke for princes intermedling in CouÌ„cels and for making lawes concernyng matters ecclesiasticall You see by this place their gouuernement is no other but to ayde and assiste for putting in execution the decrees of Councels and the holy Fathers Instructions Wherfore ye may put vp your ioly note wherwyth ye would seame to furnishe and bewtifie your matter and margent here in your purse and the lesse yt be sene the better for yowe for any good that euer your cause shal take by it M. Horne The .87 Diuision pag. â—2 b. In the next session the Emperour sitteth as 268. President and Moderatour accompanied vvith many of his nobles sitting about him On his right hande sate Georgius the Archebishop of Constantinople called nevve Rome and those that vvere vvith him on the other side vpon themperours lefte hande sate the Legates of the Archebishop Agatho of old Rome these tvvo as .269 agent parties VVheÌ„ they vver thus set the Emperours Secretary brought foorth the Ghospels putteth the Emperour in mind vvhat vvas done the sessioÌ„ before and desireth his maiesty to cause Macarius and his party to bring out likevvise their testimonies as the Legats from Agatho of old Rome had don for their party The Emperour coÌ„maundeth Macarius obeith and desireth that his books may be red the Emperour commaundeth they should so be Stapleton M. Horne here noteth the sitting of the Popes Legates on the lefte hand and the Bisshop of Constantinople on the right hand which either maketh nothing for the abasing of the Legats authority either that doth not so abase them as doth that I haue said auaunce them that they are rehersed both in the naming and placing as wel in this very place as throughout al this Councel before al other bisshops beside the prerogatiues which we haue and shal declare they had in this Councel And M. Horn must remeÌ„ber that in the fift general Councel they had the right hand as him self coÌ„fesseth Neither was the Emperour President in this Councell neither the bisshops the Agent parties as M. Horne here vntruly saith but when the Sentence came to be pronounced the Bishops alone gaue it without themperour A moderatour in dede in external order and quyet to be kept theÌ„perour was not only in this but in al other CouÌ„cels as I haue shewed before out of Cusanê° but not in geuiÌ„g solutioÌ„s to the reasons propouÌ„ded or in geuing final senteÌ„ce in matter of doctrin as the word Moderatour in the scholes soundeth aÌ„d as M. Horn would haue it here to be vnderstaÌ„ded M. Horne The .88 Diuision pag. 52. b. After the shevving of the allegations on bothe sides the Legates of old Rome desier the Emperour that they may knovve yf the aduersaries agree on the tenour of their tvvo forsaid suggestioÌ„s The aduersaries beseche theÌ„peror that they might haue the copies of theÌ„ theÌ„peror coÌ„mauÌ„deth that vvithout delay their request should be fulfilled The books vvere brought forth and sealed vvith the seales of the Iudges and either of the parties This againe .270 proueth that the Popes Legats vvere none of the Iudges but one of the parties And so in the eight ninth and teÌ„th actioÌ„ the same order of doing is obserued in like sort as before in such vvise that no one in the Synode neither the vvhole Synod doth .271 any thing vvithout licence and the direction of the Emperour the president and chief ruler in al those causes Stapleton M. Horne is now harping vpon the same stringe that he was harping vpon before twise in the former leaf that the Popes Legats were no Iudges but parties and plantiues In the one of the former places he geueth no cause but will haue vs belieue hiÌ„ vpoÌ„ his bare word Here aÌ„d in the other he geueth vs a cause that nothing coÌ„cludeth for hiÌ„ but rather agaiÌ„st hiÌ„ The Monothelits to make their matter beare some good couÌ„tenaÌ„ce brought forth freshely many authorities of Athanasius and other fathers on their side The Popes Legats espying the chopping and chauÌ„ging the cutting and hewing the mayming and mangling of those testimonies â–ª discried this falshod to the CouÌ„cel VpoÌ„ this an exacte search coÌ„ference and coÌ„parison was made of other bokes in theÌ„perous and patriarchs of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople library
the wordes immediately folowing which are these Sicut praedictum est Quatenus secuÌ„dum sancta vniuersalia quinque Concilia statuta sanctorum venerabilium patruÌ„ ita eam nos custodiamus vsque in mortem To th entent that as we haue before saied saieth the Emperour we also may kepe the faith euen to deathe according to the fiue holy and generall Councels and according to the decrees of the holy Reuerent Fathers If you had put this clause to the office of Bishops M. Horn as the Emperour did al England should haue sene that you and your fellowes were no Bishops who so lightly and so impudeÌ„tly condemne the doctrine of the holy fathers and do allowe but fower generall Councels as your bretherne here in Antwerpe do allowe but three But it went against your conscience to tell that which should condemne your conscience Likewise in the princes seruice to God you saie the Emperour protested his zeale to conserue the Christian faith vndefiled but you leaue out againe what he saieth immediatly after secundùm doctrinam atque traditionem quae tradita est nobis tam per Euangelium quámque per sanctos Apostolos statuta sanctorum quinque vniuersalium Conciliorum sanctorúmque probabilium patrum According to the doctrine and tradition deliuered vnto vs aswel by the Gospell as by the holye Apostles and by the decrees of the fiue holye General Councels and of the holye approued fathers If you had told this parte of the princes duetye and had geuen the Emperour leaue to tell out his whole tale the Reader shoulde sone haue espied what damnable wretches yowe are that persuade Princes to professe the Gospell onelye with out regarde of former Councels and of the traditions of the holy fathers And then your two marginal notes either would not at al bene noted or at least to your vtter shame haue ben readen Other your nippinges and curtallinges of your places might here be noted As that in the Councels request to the Emperour for ratifieng their determination with his edict you leaue out ex more after the maner wherby is insinuated a customable practise of Emperours as we sawe before in Iustinian to procure by edictes and proclamations the execution of Councels As also in your long allegation of pope Leo his letters which al we graunt vnto you and you neuer the nerer we might note at the least half a dosen such nippinges and manglinges of the text But I thinck M. Horne all that hath ben saied being wel considered you looke for no greate triumphe for this fielde But are content to blowe the retrayte Be it so then M. Horne The .92 Diuision pag. 55. a. Bamba King of Spaine commaunded a Synod to be had at Toletum in the fourthe yeere of his reigne the occasion vvas this There had beene no Synode by the space of .18 yeeres before as it is saide in the preface to this Councell by meanes vvhereof the vvorde of God vvas despised the Churche disciplicine neglected all Godly order distourbed and the Churche toste and tumbled as a shippe vvithout a rovver and sterne meaning a Kinge to call them togeather in Synode By the carefull zeale of this Kinge beyng called togeather they consulte hovv to refourme errores about Faithe corruption of discipline and other disorders againste godlines and Religion And at the ende they doo geue great thankes vnto the noble and vertuous Kinge by vvhose ordinaunce and carefull endeuour they vvere .280 commaunded to this consultation vvho as they affirme of him comming as a nevve repayrer of the Ecclesiasticall discipline in these times not onely intended to restore the orders of the Councelles before this time omitted but also hath decreed and appointed yeerely Synodes to bee kepte hereafter Eringius kinge of Spaine commaundeth the Bishopps and other of his Clergie to assemble togeather at Toletum in one Synode the first yere of his reigne And called an other to the same place the fourth yeere of his reigne to consulte about reformation of the Churche discipline VVhen the Bishoppes and the residue of the Cleargy vvere assembled in their conuocation at the commaundemente of the king he him selfe vvith many of his nobilitie and counsailours commeth in to them he declareth the cause vvherefore he summoned this Synode he shevveth the miseries the vvhole countrey hath susteined and the plagues he declareth the cause to be Goddes vvrathe kindled by meanes of the contempte of Goddes vvorde and commaundement And he exhorteth them that they vvil vvith Godly zeale study â—o purge the land from prauity by preaching and exercise of Godly discipline and that zealously He doth exhort his Nobles that vvere there presente that they also vvould care diligently for the futherance hereof he deliuereth vnto the Synode a booke conteining the principall matter vvherof they should consulte And last of all he promiseth by his hande subscription that he vvil confirme and ratifie vvhat the clergy and nobility shall conclude touching these articles for the furtherance of godlines and Church Discipline Egita Kinge of Spayne .281 caused in his time also three Councelles to be hadde and celebrated at Toletum for the preseruation of Religion vvith the Church Discipline in sincerity and puritie vvho also confirmed and ratified the same vvith his Royal assent and authority The .6 Chapter Of three Kings of Spaine and of the three later Toletane Councels kept in their reignes Stapleton ALM. Hornes force is now sodenly remoued from Constantinople to Spaine where he now bloweth a larme againe But God be thanked for all this great fighte there is litle hurte donne Yea after all this tossing and turmoiling and after all his great sturre and broile againste the pope and the clergy he is vppon the soden becomme suche an entiere and so well affectioned frende to them that but I trowe vnwares and therfore worthy the lesse thanke he transporteth the supreame authority as well in temporall as spirituall matters from the king to the clergy For I beseache you M. Horne are not dyuers of the maters specified in the twelueth and thirtenth Councell at Toledo plaine Ciuile and Temporall As concerning the confirmation of King Ernigius royall Authoritie succeeding to Kinge Bamba being shorne a Monke Concerning the release and exoneration of the people from certaine grieuouse payementes and exactions Concerninge also the goods of certaine Traytours with such like Dothe not the Kinge praye the Prelates to discusse his requests with their iudgementes Doe not they confirme his royall Authoritie with their Synodicall Decree Doth not the Kinge in his booke offred to the Councell saye that he moste humblie and deuoutlye lyeth prostrate before their Reuerente assemblie Coram caetus vestri reuerentia humilis deuotusque prosternor Dothe he not desire them coÌ„cerning his other ciuil ordinaÌ„ces to put to their stroÌ„g and helping hand Doth he not plainly say that what so euer the holy assemblie of Bisshops decreeth to be obserued is by the gift of the
be restored VVe haue degraded the false Priestes Deacons and Clerkes being adulterers and fornicatours and haue driueÌ„ them to penaunce VVe haue vtterly forbidden al maner huÌ„ting and haukiÌ„g to the Clergy VVe decree also that euery priest dvvelliÌ„g in the diocese be subiect vnto his ovvn bisshop and that alvvaies in Lent he make an accoÌ„pt and shhevv to the bishop the maner aÌ„d order of his ministery touching baptism the Catholik faith praiers and the order of Masses And vvhaÌ„soeuer the bishop shal go his circuite to coÌ„firm the people the priest shal be ready to receiue hiÌ„ vvith collectioÌ„ aÌ„d helpe of the people That the priest seke for nevv Chrism alvvaies on MauÌ„dy thursday at the bishops haÌ„d that the bishop may be a vvitnes of his chast life of his faith and doctrine VVe decree further that no vnknovven bishop or Priest be admitted into the Churche ministerye before he be allovved bye the Synode He maketh many such like for the reformation of the Clergy in vvhat sort they shal be punished yf they commit vvhoâ—dome and likevvise againste sorcery vvitchcraft diuinacions incantations and al kind of prophane superstitions If ther vvere no more examples of any Church history but this 298 of Caloroman it vvoulde suffice to make plaine that to the Princes authoritye apperteineth to make Lavves and to the Clergye to geâ—â— him counsaile out of Gods vvorde hovv to frame the discipline to the edifiyng of Gods Church The .8 Chapter Of Charles Martell and of the keyes of S. Peters Confession Stapleton AS farre as I can see al M. Hornes noble prowes and great conquests haue bene and shal be vpon the laÌ„de By the which he hath brought and will bring yf ye wil belieue him vnder his newe Papacy many greate and noble countries yea Moscouia and Aethiopia to But happye yt is that he is not yet come to the Late newe fouÌ„de Landes where the newe Christian people doe as faste and as reuerently embrace the Popes authority as we after we haue bene Christian men nowe these thowsande yeares doe reiecte yt and that with moste shamefull vilany But as I said I fynde no martiall actes of M Hornes vpon the sea but this onely which is so notable and wonderful that this one way serue for all For Lo he carieth all the Popes authoritye awaye in a shippe to Fraunce sente thytâ—er by the Pope him selfe as him selfe saieth For as muche as he sent to Carolus Martellus the keyes of Saint Peters confession So that nowe the Pope hathe beinge therto forced by Maister Horne belyke in some terrible combat vppon the seas with sending these keyes so spoyled him selfe of all his iurisdiction that he hath no more lefte then haue all other Ministers of the Churche and euerye other poore selye Sir Iohn This is Maister Horne a iolye triumphante victorye as euer I reade or hearde of and these be as wonderfull keyes Some great and stronge wonders haue I reade done by keyes As in Italye that suche as be bytten with madde dogges haue bene cured by the Churche doore keye of Saint Bellins Churche who beinge a blessed man died al to torne with dogges And this is writen of a greate learned man of late memorie borne aboute those quarters I haue reade also of meruelouse greate miracles done by keyes that hadde towched the holye reliques of Saint Peter at Rome writen by Sainte Gregorye our Apostle as a thynge moste certainelye and notoriouslye to him and to others knowen But yet Maister Horne these your keyes seame to me incomparablye to passe all other And for the straungnes of the matter and for my better instruction I woulde full fayne be resolued at your handes but of two dowbtes that trouble and incomber me First seinge that this Pope as Maister Horne reciteth out of Pâ—â—â—ina passingly well learned bothe in diuine and prophane lâ—â—rninge and no lesse godlye stoute and constante hath yelded ouer to a laye Prince by sendinge to him in a shippe Saint Peters keyes all his iurisdiction and clayme that he hadde ouer all causes Ecclesiasticall or temporall yet for all this good Maister Horne in this so weightye a matter I woulde craue at your handes a litle of your good helpe to satisfie my mynde yea and your wise discrete readers mynde to For I hauing but a dull insight in such matters for my part see no great wisedome vertue or learning and lesse stoutnesse in Gregorie for theis his doings Your authors in this storie are here Martinus and Platina Yf we shall by them measure his wisdome and stowtenes and other qualities whithal yt was partly for that by his great carefulnes he procured that Rome being oppressed by the kinge of Lombardie was releyued partlie and that most of al for that by a councel holden at Rome almoste of one thowsande bisshops he condemned and accursed the wycked Emperour of Constantinople Leo for defacyng againe after the 7. Generall Councel beinge persuaded thereto by an hereticall monke the holy images as your authour Martinus in Gregories storie writeth And Platina sayth that he both excoÌ„municated themperour Leo and by sentence declared him to be no Emperour And so not whithstaÌ„ding the keies of S. Peter were sent away by shippe he reserued to him self one of S. Peters keyes and a litle more authoritie then ye were ware of yea so much that he hath geuen you a sore blowe in the face whith his key aÌ„d declared you aÌ„d your fellowes and your great Emperour to verie arrant heretyks I must now ons again be so bolde as to trouble your wisedome with an other as necessarie a question and that is by what authoritye ye auouche that theis keyes were nothing else but the popes supreame authoritie and iurisdictioÌ„ Your authors Martinus and Platina say no such thing No nor anie other that I could euer chauÌ„ce vppoÌ„ If this be your owne newe freshe inuention then haue yowe a iolie pregnante wytte and ye haue deceyued aswel others as the late reuerent father M. Bayne late bishop of Lichfeld and CoueÌ„trie his expectation somtime your reader in CaÌ„bridge that was wont to call yow quouis connu duriorem that is harder then any Horn. But I pray you good Sir is your authority inuoydable Must we neads sing sanctus sanctus sanctus to al your sayings and say of you as Pythagoras schollers were wont to say ipse dixiâ— aÌ„d reason no further Let poore blont fellowes be so bold vppon yowe for ones to heare froÌ„ you some better authoritye then your owne naked worde for this noble exposition Namely seing that your boke is not authorised by the Quenes coÌ„missioners as some others are And thowgh yt wer yet might we craue so much at your hands seing that yowe auouche that whiche for all your prety exposition was not done by this Gregorie nor could possible be done onlesse he had bene as frantycke as euer was madde Collyns of Bethelem Nor I trowe anie
or schismatike should dare to gainsaie it And also to the end that the Princes them selues as deuout childreÌ„ shuld agree vpon him whom they sawe to be chosen for their Father that in all things they might aide and assist him As it was in the example of Valentinian th'Emperour and S. Ambrose I saith the Emperour wil be thy aide and defence as it becometh my degree And herevpon Pope Steuen of whom M. Horne talked euen now made a Decree that without the Emperours Legates were present no bishops alreadie chosen should be consecrated And by reason of this Decree the Bishops of Reatina coulde not be consecrated as M. Horne euen now alleaged But saith Gratian because the Emperours passing sometime their bondes would not be of the nuÌ„ber of coÌ„senters aÌ„d agreers to th'electioÌ„ but wuld be the first that shuld choose yea aÌ„d put out to ofteÌ„times also falling to be as false as heretiks assaied to breake the vnity of the Catholike Church their Mother therefore the decrees of the holie Fathers haue proceded against them that they should no more medle with the election of bisshops and that whosoeuer obtained any Church by their voice should be excommunicated And as Ezechias toke awaye the brasen serpent whiche Moyses did set vp because it was now abused so the constitutions of our forefathers are sometime chaunged by the Authoritie of the posteritie when such ConstitutioÌ„s mere positiue are abused Then Gratian bringeth in diuers other decrees against the ConfirmatioÌ„ of Emperours as of Gregorie the .4 pope of Lewys the firste Charles hys sonne Henrie the first and Otho the first Emperours who all gaue ouer by open decrees this priuilege graunted first of popes vpon good considerations and after repealed vpon as good by the same authoritie And thus you see M. Horne by your owne Authours and by good reason if ye haue grace to consider it you are sufficiently answered for confirmation of Popes and inuesturing of Bisshops a common matter in your booke and yet as you see nowe a matter of no weight in the world After this M. Horn is in hand with the raining of bloud three daies and with many other wonders of this time yea with the Deuil him selfe that bewrayed Priests Lemmans whiche they kept in corners secrete that now M. Horne and his fellowes are not ashamed to kepe openly and haue learned a furder lesson then Priestes of that age knew that a Frier and a Nunne may laufully wedde wherat the Deuill him selfe perchaunce doth as much wonder as Maister Horne here doth wonder at the Deuils straunge doings which yet are not so strange nor so much to be wondered at as perchance your great wisedom is to be woÌ„dred at to imagine that al these things chanced for that th'Emperour had not as he was wonte to haue the confirmation of the Popes election and the ordering of maters Ecclesiasticall M. Horne The .105 Diuision pag. 66. b. After Benedictus vvas Nicolas chosen vvhom the Emperour him selfe being present did confirme as vvitnesseth Nauclerus At the same time was the Emperour Lodouicus .2 at Rome who confirmed the Popes election The same also sayeth Martin to the vvhich Volateran addeth of the Emperour and the Pope De communi consilio ambo cuncta gerebant Alâ— thinges were done by common counsaile or consent of both the Emperour and the Pope And least it might be thought he meaneth not as vvel Ecclesiastical as Temporal matters Sabellicus maketh the matter more plaine affirming that the Emperour and the Pope had secrete conferâ—nce together many daies and had consultation both touching the matters perteining to Christian Religion and also of the state of Italye And a litle after talkinge of the Pope The Pope decreed by the consente of Lodouicus that from thence foorth no Prince no not the Emperour him selfe should be present in the councell with the Clergye onlesse it were when the principall pointes of faith were treated of Hitherto in all these Ecclesiasticall causes the Emperour hath the doinge as .348 vvell or more than the Pope But this last decree that by the allovvance of the Emperour the Pope made exempteth Temporall Princes from Ecclesiasticall matters in their councelles though in the most principall matters Ecclesiastical concerning faith it leaueth to them their .349 interestes Stapleton M Horne hym self to helpe our matters forwarde bringeth forth a decree made by the pope with th' Emperours consent that lay princes should not be present in CouÌ„cels onlesse it were when the principall pointes of religion be treated of at the which he wondreth as of a thing vnheard of And yet he did or mought haue found as much in the actes of the Councell of Chalcedo Yea he myght haue sene also that by the same decree as well the people as the prince might be present and as much interest had the one thereyn as the other For as the same Pope Nicolas sayed geuynge a reason why the prince may be present when matters of faith are debated Faith is common to all and perteineth as well to the layitie as to the Clergie yea to all Christen men without exception Yet all was not gone from them sayeth M. Horne for they had their interestes still he sayeth in the principall matters ecclesiasticall concerning faith But what intereste I praye you tell vs Was it to determine or define anye thyng or that all determinations were voyde and frustrate without theÌ„ Nay but only that they might be present eyther to keepe quiet and order or els as Constantin and Marcian protested ad confirmandam fidem to strenghthen their owne faith or last of all to execute the Sentence and determinations of bishops And so were theyr Ambassadours present in the late General Councel at TreÌ„t And the Emperour and Kinges were wished theÌ„ selues to be there M. Horne The .106 Diuision pag. 67. a. Martinus the secoÌ„d gat into the Papacie malis artibus by naughty meanes saith Platina aÌ„d as is noted in the margeÌ„t it vvas in this Popes time that first of all the creation of the Popes vvas made vvithout the Emperours authority But this Pope died so shortely as he came in naughtily After vvhoÌ„ AdriaÌ„ the third like vnto his predecessor the secoÌ„d of that name vvho by cuÌ„ning sleight practised to .350 defraude the Emperour of his authority espying oportunitie by reason that Charles the emperour as Sabellicus saith vvas farre of busied in the vvarres dothe promote this matter to be decreed by the Senate and the people and this he did immediatly after he vvas made Bishop aÌ„d persuadeth theÌ„ that they doo not hereafter vvayte for the Emperours approbatioÌ„ and coÌ„firmation in appointing their Bishop but that they should kepe to theÌ„selues their ovvn fredome The vvhich thing also Nicolaus the firste vvith others atteÌ„pted but coulde not bringe it to passe as Platina reporteth VVho also vvriteth that the Romaynes had coÌ„ceiued an hope of great liberty in the hauty courage of this Pope being
them he meaneth the high bisshops of Christ our God and Sauiour Thus agayne you see Maister Horne howe all the iudgement resteth in the bishops and howe the sentence of the See Apostolike preuayleth and howe buxomely to vse your owne worde and obediently the Emperour yeldeth thereunto not intermedling farder then to procure that all partes may be heard that tumulte may be auoided and that the Iudges for so were the bisshops called in this Actiō may quietly procede to Sētence and last of al that same Sētence may be put in executiō notwithstanding the indurat malice of obstinat heretikes In the .8 Action al the schismatical conuenticles of the Photians are condemned and the recordes thereof burned In that Action also diuers Image breakers came to the Synode and were reconciled That secte also was againe accursed In the last Action the Canons were reade at the Popes Legates commaundement to the number of .27 In the .22 Canon it is decreed that no secular Prince intermedle with the election or choyse of any Patriarche Metropolitane or Bisshop whatsoeuer which also is inserted by Gratian into the decrees Finally the Councel being ended Basilius the Emperour maketh a longe and a notable Oration to the Synod expressing the dewe zeale and dewty of an Emperour in al Synodes and Councels He auoucheth plainly that to secular and laye men Non est datum secundùm Canonem dicendi quicquam penitus de Ecclesiasticis causis opus enim hoc pontificum sacerdotum est It is not graunted by the Rule of the Churche to speake any thinge at al in Councel of Ecclesiasticall matters For this is the worke saith he of Bishops and Priestes And after commēding the bishops for their greate paynes and trauaile in that Councell he speaketh to the laye Nobylyte then present thus De vobis autem Laicis c. But as touching you that are of the lay sorte as wel you that beare offices as that be priuate men I haue no more to say vnto you but that it is not lawfull for you by any meanes to moue talke of Ecclesiasticall matters neither to resiste in any point against the integrity of the Churche or to gaynesaie the vniuersal Synode For to searche and seke out these matters it belongeth to Bisshops and Priests which beare the office of gouernours which haue the power to sanctifie to binde and to loose which haue obtayned the keyes of the Churche and of heauen It belongeth not to vs which ought to be fedde which haue nede to be sanctified to be boūde and to be loosed from bande For of whatsoeuer Religion or wisedome the laye man be yea though he be indewed with all internal vertues as longe as he is a lay man he shal not cease to be called a shepe Againe a bisshop howesoeuer vnreuerent he be and naked of all vertue as longe as he is a bishop and preacheth dewlye the woorde of Truthe he suffereth not the losse of his pastorall vocation and dignitye What then haue we to doe standinge yet in the roome of shepe The Shepheardes haue the power to discusse the subtiltye of woordes and to seke and compasse such thinges as are aboue vs. We must therefore in feare and sincere faith harken vnto them and reuerence their countenances as being the Ministres of Almightye God and bearinge his fourme and not to seke any more then that which belongeth to our degree and vocation Thus farre the Emperour Basilius in the ende and Conclusion of the eight generall Councell and much more in this sense which were here to longe to inserte I blame you not nowe Maister Horne that you so ouerhipped this whole Generall Councell and the doinges of those .ij. Popes Nicolaus and Adrian .2 You sawe perhaps or had hearde say that it made clerely against you And yet as I sayed before apparently you might haue culled out broken narrations for your purpose as well out of this Generall Councell as out of the other .7 But seing you tooke such paynes to note themperors demeanour in the former .7 I thought it a poynte of courtesye Maister Horne to requytte you againe with this one generall Councell for so manye by you alleaged to your verye small purpose as euery indifferent Reader seeth Whether this be not to our purpose I dare make your selfe Iudge And nowe I wonder what shifte you will make to auoyde the Authoritye of this generall Councell or of this Emperour Basilius Well You maye at your good leasure thinke and deuise vppon it I wil nowe returne to your text You saye Martinus the seconde whome other more trulye call Marinus gat into the Papacy by naughtye meanes What maketh that to proue your Supremacye in the laye Magistrat It is noted you saie in the margent of Platina that it was in this Popes tyme that first of all the creation of the Popes was made without the Emperours authoritye You shoulde haue tolde vs withall in what printe of Platina that note is founde I haue sene Platina both of the Collen printe and of the Venyce print sette forthe with the Notes of Onuphrius and yet I finde no suche Note in the margent It is by like the Note of some your brotherhood in some copie printed at Basill And then is it of as good Authoritye as Maister Hornes owne booke is which is God wote but course Whose so euers note it be a false note it is For as of a hundred and ten Bisshoppes of Rome before this Marinus scarse the fourthe parte of them was confirmed of the Emperours so the Emperours before this tyme neuer created Popes but onelye consented to the creation or election made by the clergye and confirmed the same for quyet sake and for the preseruation of vnyty as I haue before shewed Adrians decree that the people of Rome shoulde wayte no more for the Emperours confirmation was no defraudinge of themperours right as you vntrulye reporte but a renewing of the olde liberties and priuileges dewe to the Churche by the order of Canons and Councels and the whiche neuer came to the Emperours but by the Popes owne grauntes and decrees namelye of Adrian the first and Leo .3 as hath before appeared and therefore by them agayne reuocable without iniurye done to the Prince when the weale of the Churche so requyred As it was at this tyme the Frenche Emperours busyed with warres against the Sarracens and not so carefull of the Ecclesiasticall peace vppon respect whereof that Cōfirmation of the Pope was graunted them as were theyr predecessours Which negligence so encreased that in fewe yeares after as we shall anon see they not only lefte of the protection of the See Apostolike but loste also the Empire it being transferred to the Germains in Otho the first whome also some Germayne writers namelye Cusanus do accompte for the first Emperour of the Weste after the decaye and breache of the East Empire M. Horne The .107 Diuision Fol. 67. b. The next
reuocamus atque omnino respuimus This is my sonnes our IudgemeÌ„t This we beleue and professe This we now affirm in our old age aÌ„d placed in the Apostolik top If at any tyme we haue writen any thing either to you or to any other contrary to this doctrin al those things we now reuoke and vtterly repeale for erroneous and light opinioÌ„s of youthely affectioÌ„ Lo M. Horn. For your Aeneas we answere you with Pius for your younge vnkilful and lesse aduised we answere you by the old the more lerned and the better aduised for your priuat and lay maÌ„ for he had yet takeÌ„ no holy orders when he returned to the obedieÌ„ce of Pope Eugenius we answer you with the Bishop aÌ„d the chief of al Bishops You must remeÌ„bre M. Horne that alwaies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Next to Aeneas Syluiê° cometh the Cardin. de Cusa one that maketh as much for M. Horn as a rope doth for a thefe Haue you sene M. Horn that Cardinals book which you allege de CoÌ„cordia Catholica If not theÌ„ beshrew your frend that told you of hiÌ„ If yes theÌ„ tel vs I pray you how like you him aÌ„d his coÌ„clusioÌ„s in that work How like you his coÌ„clusioÌ„ in the .2 book proued by the clere practise of the ChalcedoÌ„ aÌ„d the Ephesin CouÌ„cel fideÌ„ Romanae Ecclesiae in nulla Synodo vniuersali retractari posse That the faith of the Church of Rome caÌ„ be reuoked in no vniuersal Synod or Councel generall For theÌ„ what wretches are you and how coÌ„trary to the Fathers of the first general CouÌ„cels and of the first .400 yers which haue in your pelting priuat conuocations reuoked and coÌ„deÌ„ned in so many and waighty points the faith of the Church of Rome How like you that he telleth how in the old first general CouÌ„cels not only the holy ghospels but also lignuÌ„ S. Crucis aliae reliquiae a piece of wod of the holy Crosse aÌ„d other relikes were layed forth in the midle How like you that he saith Ecclesiastici Canones noÌ„ possunt nisi per ecelesiasticaÌ„ coÌ„gregationeÌ„ quae Synodus vel coetus dicitur statui CanoÌ„s or rules touchiÌ„g Church matters caÌ„not be determined but by aÌ„ ecclesiastical asseÌ„bly which is called a Synod or coÌ„pany no doubt but of ecclesiastical persons For if this be true as Cusanê° ther by the practise aÌ„d CanoÌ„s of the Church proueth ir most true theÌ„ hath Cusanus vtterly ouerthroweÌ„ your new primacy aÌ„d in one lyne geueÌ„ you an other pawne mate to your whole boke For here lo are plainly excluded al PriÌ„ces aÌ„d other laye magistrats whatsoeuer who are pardy no ecclesiastical persons How like you that he pronouÌ„ceth assuredly and coÌ„staÌ„tly saying PapaÌ„ esse rectoreÌ„ nauiculae S. Petri vniuersalis Ecclesiae nemo etiaÌ„ dubitat That the Pope is the ruler of S. Peters ship aÌ„d of the vniuersal Church no maÌ„ verely doubteth But how say you M. Horn doubte you or doubt you not How like you again where he affirmeth aÌ„d proueth the same substaÌ„tially as wheÌ„ he saith Et veruÌ„ est c. And true it is that no iudgemeÌ„t of any Synod is auaileable wher the autority of the See Apostolik coÌ„curreth not wher be theÌ„ your LoÌ„doÌ„ conuocatioÌ„s But how proueth he this the reason he geueth Quia semper appellari potest c. Bicause it may alwaies be appeled froÌ„ the IudgmeÌ„t of that Synod to the See Apostolik So we reade saith he of the Patriarches of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople Flauianus Ignatius aÌ„d other so of Athanasius of AlexaÌ„dria and other we reade that thei appealed froÌ„ Synods of Bishops to the See Apostolik So also Chrysostome froÌ„ a Synod of the AegyptiaÌ„ bishops appealed to InnoceÌ„tiê° the Pope So Theodoretus froÌ„ the Ephesin coÌ„uenticle aÌ„d his owne Patriarche Maximê° of Antioch appealed to Pope Leo as I haue other wher agaiÌ„st M. Iewel declared How like you this doctrin of Cusanê° M. Horn As also wher he saith again expressely Fateor de coÌ„stitutionibus fideÌ„ taÌ„geÌ„tibus veruÌ„ esse quòd si Sedis Apostolicae Autoritas noÌ„ interueniat ratae noÌ„ sint imò ipsiê° PoÌ„tificis coÌ„sensus interuenire debet cuÌ„ sit princeps in episcopatu fidei I confesse it is true of Constitutions concerninge faith that yf the Authoritie of the See Apostolike doe wante they are of no valewe yea the consent of the Pope him selfe ought to concurre in such case because he beareth the chiefe rule in the bishoply charge of fayth Which last wordes Cusanus had lerned of the Emperours Valentinian and Marcian in their letters to pope Leo aboue a .xi. hundred yers past How like you now M. Horn tel me of good felowship this Cardinal of Cusa out of whom so sadly you alleage such a longe processe Howe so euer you like it it is of vs and of euery diligent Reader very well to be liked and diligeÌ„tly to be noted I meane these testimonies of Cusanus not bicause he sayeth it but bicause he proueth it so by the olde practise of the primitiue Churche But especially it is to be noted that this Cusanus writinge this booke De Concordia Catholica about the time of the Councell of Basill and writinge it expressely not for the pope but againste the pope for the Authorytie of the Councell aboue the pope and for the Authoryte of the Emperour as muche as he coulde yet by the very force of the truthe which in dede lernedly and paynefully he serched out he was constrained to say and conclude for the popes Authorytie as we haue before recited largely and amply though not in dede so fully and absolutely as bothe he and Aeneas Syluius afterwarde did by reuokinge their former errours in their riper ages For this Cusanê° wheÌ„ he wrote this was not yet Cardinall but only the deane of a Church in CoueleÌ„ce And in all his positions where he speaketh against the CommoÌ„ opinioÌ„ of lerned meÌ„ touching the popes primacie aboue the general Councel for otherwise he neuer denied it he submitteth him self to better iudgement and speaketh vnder correction Nowe to drawe nerer to your allegatioÌ„ M. Horne concerning the Emperours Authorytie in calling of Councels if you take Cusanus with his whole meaning therein you shall find small reliefe for your desperat cause If you admitte not his whole meaning nor will not tary his tale out M. Iewel wil tel you M. Horne that is no good maner And he will tell you of a lawe that sayeth It is againste reason that one man shoulde in parte allowe the will of the dead so farre forthe as it maketh for him and in parte ouerthrowe it where it semeth to make against him Lette vs then heare the whole meaninge of Cusanus concerninge the Authorytie that Emperours haue in callinge assistinge and confirming of Councelles euen in that booke where he sayeth all he can for the Emperours Verely maister Horne in all that booke he
is his anker hold and for this cause aswell the whole allegation is here producted as also one peace of the same set in the first page of his whole boke as a sure marke to direct the reader by and as yt were a Sampsons poste for M. Horne to buyld his boke vppō But take good head M. Horne yt be not a true Sampsons poste and that it bring not the whole howse vpon your own head as yt doth in dede Wherunto good reader seing M. Horne hath chosen this as a notable allegation to be eied on setting the same in two notable places I woulde wishe thee also to geue a good eye thereunto and to see if it can anye way possible make for him I say then M. Horne that this allegatiō goeth no further then that the Prince by his cyuill and worldlye power shoulde assiste and maynteyne the Churche and her doctrine And that this allegation directly and rowndly proueth the contrarye of that for the whiche ye doe alleage yt that is that yt proueth the ecclesiasticall authoritie and not the cyuill to be cheif and principall in causes ecclesiasticall And that in effecte the whole tendeth to nothing else but that as I sayde the Princes shoulde defend the Churche I will not stande here in ripping vp of wordes with you or in the diuersity of reading and that some old copies haue who hath committed his Churche to be defended of theire power and that your hath deliuered to be committed seameth to stande in your translation vnhansomly I will saye nothing that credere and committere is all one in Latin Let this goe I finde no faulte with you for translation but for yl application Yf ye had brought this authority to proue that the prince should defende the Churche for the whiche ende and respecte it was writen I woulde say nothing to you But when ye will bleare our eies and make vs so blinde that we shoulde imagine by this saying of Isidore that the king is Supreame Head of the Churche or that his assente is necessarie to the Synodes of Bishops and coūcelles I wil say to you that the cōtrary wil be much better gathered of this allegatiō The very firste wordes wōderfully acrase your newe primacy and somwhat also your honesty peruersly trāslating nōnunquā which is somtime or now and thē into oftētimes But let yt be for nonnunquam sepe let them oftētymes haue the highest authoritye in the Churche Vnlesse they haue yt styll they can not be called the Supreame Heades in all causes ecclesiastical And so theis very words make a good argumēt againste your primacy But now M. Horne what is the cause whie they haue this high authority either somtimes or oftētimes Isidore straytwayes sheweth the cause that they may as your self translate fence by theire power the ecclesiastical discipline Ye heare thē the scope and final purpose of this allegation for Princes authority in matters ecclesiasticall that is to defende the Churche And therefore as I sayde yt is more sutely to reade tradidit defendendam then tradidit cōmittendā And for this cause the Emperours call them selues not capita Ecclesiae not the heades of the Churche sed aduocatos Ecclesiae but the aduocates of the Churche as your self tel of themperour Friderike Goe we now forth with Isidorus But first I aske of you M. Horne that make the Princes to be heades of the Churche and to haue so muche to doe in matters ecclesiasticall that the Bishops can decree nothing that shoulde be auaylable withowt they re special ratification for the setting forth of the which doctrine ye are content for this tyme that priestes shal be priestes and may sweare by their priesthod and not by theire aldermanship or eldership whether suche authority in Princes be absolutelie necessarie to the Churche or no Yf ye say no thē conclud you against your self ād your whole boke Yf ye say yea then conclude you against the truthe and againste your authour who sayeth that suche authority of Princes in the Church is not necessarie but for to punishe those that contemne the worde of doctrine the fayth and discipline of the Churche Of whome haue we receiued M. Horne the worde of doctrine the faythe and discipline of the Churche Of the Apostles and theire successours the Bishoppes or of the Princes I suppose ye will not saie of Princes Then must ye graunt that for these matters the primacy resteth in the clergy of whom the Princes thē selues haue receiued theire faith ād to whom in matters of faith and for the discipline of the Churche they must also obey and as case requireth set forth the doctrine of worde wyth theire temporal sworde Whiche if they do not but suffer throwghe theire slacknes the faythe and disciplyne of the Churche to be loosed God who hath committed his Churche to be defended by theire power wil exacte an accompte of thē as your authour Isidore writeth and your self do allege So that now we see euen by your own allegatiō in whom the superiority of Churche matters remayneth that is in the clergy And that Princes are not the heades but the ayders assisters and aduocates of the Churche with theire tēporal authority And to this ende all that euer ye haue browght in this your boke cōcerning the intermedling of Princes in church affaires cā only be referred And this your own allegatiō is aswel a sufficiēt answere to al your argumēts hitherto laid furth for the princes supremacy as a good iustification of the Clergies primacy Wherfore if you harken but to your owne allegation and will stande to the same as you wil your Readers to do placing it as I haue said in the fore fronte of your booke you must nedes stand also to the next parcell folowing making clerely for the Clergies superioritie in Ecclesiasticall causes These words I mean that withī the Church the power of Prīces shuld not be necessary sauing that that thing which the Priests are not able to do by the word of doctrine the power of the prīce may cōmaūd by terror of discipline And I doubt nothing but that we are able wel and surely to proue as wel by his other bookes as by his gathering of all the Councels together into one volume yet extāt that Isidorus thought of the Popes Primacy then as Catholiques doe now For an euident proufe wherof behold what this Auncient and learned Bisshop Isidorus writeth He saith Synodorum congregandarum authoritas Apostolicae sedi commissa est Neque vllam Synodū generalem ratam esse credimus aut legimus quae non fuerit eius authoritate congregata vel fulcita Hoc Authoritas testatur Canonica hoc Ecclesiastica historia comprobat hoc Sancti Patres confirmant The Authoritie of assembling Coūcelles is committed to the See Apostolike Neither doe we beleue or reade any General Councell to be ratified whiche was not either assembled or confirmed with her Authoritie
but for the dead also And anon after speaking of the sacrifice of the Masse that you denie and shewing what excellencie in vertue the Bishope or priest ought to haue aboue other he saieth that he must in althings excel other for whō he maketh this intercessiō to God so far as it is mete that the ruler passe and exced the subiect For sayth he whē the priest hath called for the holy Ghost ād hath made the sacrifice which we ought most to reuerence and to tremble and feare at handling continually our common Lord I demaund among what states shal we place him How great integrity shal we loke for at his handes How great holines and deuotiō Cōsider what those hādes ought to be that shal minister such things Cōsider what tong he ought to haue that shal speak such words Cōsider finally that his soule ought to be of all other most pure ād holy that shal receiue so great ād so worthy a spirit At that time he meaneth of the cōsecratiō of the blessed sacrifice the angels are present with the priest and al the orders of the heauēly powers do make a shoute the place that is nigh to the alter is for the honor of him that is sacrificed replenished with the companies of angels Which a man may wel beleue by reason of so great a sacrifice as is then made Thus muche haue I shewed you M. Horne owt of that most learned light of the Greeke Church Ioannes Chrisostomus aswell to cause you to vnderstand your detestable heresie againste the priesthod of the newe testamente as that the priestes haue a dignity and a singular excellēt regimente aboue secular Princes They haue their spirituall sword that two edged sword I say that cutteth both bodie and soule and by excōmunication if the party repent not casteth both into the deape dongeon of hel And shall all this be counted no rule nor regiment M. Horne being in dede the cheif and the principal regimēt of al other It is yt is M. Horn the highest gouernmēt of al other and of greatest charge and importance And muche better may yt be said to this euāgelical pastour that was sayd to Agamēnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is not mete for him all the night longe to slepe that hath so muche people and suche a charge to kepe Yea ye are forced your self M. Horn to cōfesse yt a spiritual gouernmēt and rule Wherby of necessity followeth the ouerturning and ouerthrowīg of your lay supremacie For these being the chief matters or things Ecclesiasticall as your selfe can not denie and the Prince hauing nothing to doe with them as you also confesse it can not be possible that the Prince should haue the Supremacy in al causes or things Ecclesiastical And so neither M. Fekenham nor any man els may take this othe for feare of euident and open periurie And of all madnes this is a madnes and a most open contradiction to remoue these things from the Prince as ye do and yet to attribute to him without anie exception the supremacy in al things or causes Ecclesiastical Yea and to vrge men by other to confesse the same Which kind of arguing is as wise as if a man woulde affirme God to be the maker of al things the geuer of all things the preseruer of al things and yet by and by to saye God can not geue the effect of grace to externall Sacramentes God can not preserue his owne blessed Mother from al actual or original sinne Whereof will followe that God in dede is not omnipotent or almightie those things being taken awaie from him wherein chieflie his almightie power consisteth For in such miraculous operations surmounting farre al power of men God most proprelie sheweth himselfe a God As in such actes and causes Ecclesiastical as binding and loosing preaching the worde ministring the Sacramēts c. consisteth specially and most proprely the rule and gouernement Ecclesiastical We nede not therfore wrastle with you herein any farther M. Horne seing you can so preatily geue your selfe a notable fall Yet one thing would I faine knowe more of you M. Horne if I may be so bolde and learne what you meane nowe at the length to come in with the supreme Authority and power of the sworde What meane you I say to define vnto vs the one kinde and sorte of gouerning the Churche of God in these wordes by the supreme Authoritie and power of the sword to guide care prouide direct and ayde Gods Church c In all your booke hitherto of such supreme Authoritie and power of the sworde you neuer spake worde Howe chaunceth it then the sworde commeth in nowe Doth the supreme gouernement of the Churche of God consiste in the power of the sworde Then howe was the Church of God gouerned .300 yeres and more before the time of Constantine the Emperour who was the very first as hath bene shewed that by the power of the sworde I saie by the power of the sworde guided cared prouided directed and aided Gods Churche Did the Churche of Christ want a Supreme gouernour all those .300 yeres and more Againe doe the Lawes of the Church take force by the power of the sword You with M. Nowell and with the Acte of Parliament do take away from the clergie the power and Authoritie to make Churche Lawes and Constitutions and you say and swere to that no Conuocation or Councel of Bishops shal or may haue force or Authoritie to decree any Cōstitution Ecclesiastical without the Princes consent licence and supreame authoritie For this purpose also you haue alleaged the practise of so many Coūcels both General and National to make proufe that by the supreame Authoritie of Emperours and Kings Canons and lawes of the Churche haue bene enacted and decreed not by the Bishops and Councels it selfe Wherin how shamefully you haue misreported the whole practise of the Churche I haue sufficiently shewed in the seconde and third Bookes But in all your so long processe you neuer yet openlie said that by the power of the sword suche Canons and Lawes tooke place And come you nowe to saye that all this proceded of the power of the sworde Where is then nowe become the libertie of the Ghospell that your graundsir Luther and all your protestant progenitors of Germany do in al their writings so much extolle maintaine and defende against the Secular swoorde of Ciuill Magistrates Againe you M. Horne that doe force the Scholers of Oxforde to sweare by booke Othe that Scripture onelye is sufficiente to conuince euerye trueth and to destroye all heresies you that will beleue nothing but that as plaine Scripture auoucheth vnto you tell vs I praye you where finde you in all Scripture that the Supreame Authoritie to gouerne the Churche of God is by the power of the swoorde What Did not the Apostles gouerne the Churche of Christe all the time of their abode here in earth And when
disposed he saith this ArgumeÌ„t is much like as if a yong Nouice shuld reason thus NuÌ„nes must kepe sileÌ„ce in the Cloisture therfore the Prioresses haue not the gouernment in NuÌ„nish causes and matters CoÌ„cerning the first part of his answere I say that the argument is good aÌ„d sufficieÌ„t For if teaching preaching and disputing in matters of religioÌ„ be causes and matters ecclesiastical and if womeÌ„ be imbarred froÌ„ this then is there a sufficieÌ„t cause why M. Fekenham may not take this othe that a woman is supreme head in al causes spiritual aÌ„d ecclesiastical Namely to erect and enact a new and proper religioÌ„ throughout her realme by the vertue of her own proper and supreme gouernmeÌ„t For to this end M. Horn is the othe teÌ„dâ—ed It is to euideÌ„t It can not be dissembled Againe the said place of S. Paul is of the order and maÌ„ner of expouÌ„ding of scripture as it appeareth by the text If then S. Paul forbiddeth a woman to expouÌ„d scripture how can a woman take vpon her to be the chief iudge of al those that expouÌ„d the scripture I mean in that very office of expouÌ„ding Scripture in decreeiÌ„g determining and enacting what religion what beliefe what doctrine shal take place And such shee must nedes be if she be a supreme head Suche do you and your fellowes make her Such authority you M. Horn throughout all this boke attribute to your new supreme heads Emperours and KiÌ„gs by you alleaged You make them to preache to teache and to prescribe to the Bishops in their CouÌ„cels what and how they shal do in their ecclesiasticall matters If then by you a supreme Gouerner in ecclesiastical maters must be so qualified as to be present in Councels of Bishops to prescribe rules for the Bishops to follow to determine what they shal do and to coÌ„firme by royal asseÌ„t the decrees of bishops yea and to make them selues decrees and coÌ„stitutions ecclesiastical but a woman by S. Paule may not ones speake in the Church that is in the CoÌ„gregatioÌ„ or assembly of the faithful and by you a womaÌ„ may not preache teach or dispute vndoubtedly both by S. Paul and by your own coÌ„fession a womaÌ„ can not be a supreme Gouernour such as the Othe forceth meÌ„ to swere I say supreme gouernour in al ecclesiastical causes No nor in so many causes by a great deale as you pretend in this your booke other Kings and Princes to haue practised supreme gouernmeÌ„t in CoÌ„sider now M. Horne how it may staÌ„d with S. Paules doctrine that a woman may be a supreme gouerner in al ecclesiastical causes namely such as you in this boke would make your Reader beleue that al Emperours Kings and Princes hitherto haue bene Now put the case as we saw it viij yeres past that in a doubtful matter of doctrine and religion to be tried by scripture the whole number of bishops agree vpoÌ„ some determinate and resolute exposition with their Clergie and would by an Ecclesiastical law of CoÌ„uocation or Councel set forth the same Al their resolutioÌ„ and determination is not worth a rush by your Othe and by your maner of talke in this booke if the Prince doe not allowe and coÌ„firme the same And how this wil staÌ„d with S. Paul in this chapter tel vs I pray you presupposing as the statute requireth that the Princes allowing though she be a woman is necessary And now are ye come to thâ—s point and driueÌ„ therto by the force of this place to say that the place doth not proue but a womaÌ„ may haue some gouernmeÌ„t in ecclesiastical causes As though the QuestioÌ„ were now of some gouernmeÌ„t only and not of Supreme and absolute Gouernment in al maner thinges and causes ecclesiastical If therefore this place do proue that a womaÌ„ hath not the Supreme and absolute gouernement in all causes ecclesiasticall but that in some and them the chiefest she must holde her peace as yt doth euideÌ„tly and ye can not denie yt then is M. Fekenham free froÌ„ taking the othe of the supremacy and then hath S. Paule vtterly confuted that Othe and your whole booke withal This I say also as by the way that yf this chapter must be taken for teaching preaching and disputing as M. Horne saith and truely that M. Iewell went far wide froÌ„ S. Paules meaning when he applied yt to the coÌ„mon seruice of the Church whereof it is no more meaÌ„t theÌ„ of the coÌ„moÌ„ talke in tauernes As for M. Hornes secoÌ„d mery mad obiectioÌ„ no maÌ„ is so mad to make such an argumeÌ„t but hiÌ„self And therfore he may as long and as iolily as he wil triuÌ„ph with him self in his own folly Yet I would wish M. Horne to speake wel of Nunnes were it but for his grandsir Luthers sake and the heaueÌ„ly coniunctioÌ„ of him and a Nonne together Which vnhappy coÌ„iunction of that VulcaÌ„ and Venus engeÌ„dred the vnhappy brood of M. Horn aÌ„d his felowes But that this folish fond argumeÌ„t is nothing like to M. FekenhaÌ„s argumente yt may easely be proceiued by that we haue alredy and sufficiently sayde M. Fekenham The .159 Diuision pag. 98. a. The third chiefe point is that I must not only sweare vpon the Euangelists that no foraine personne state or potentate hath or ought to haue any power or authoritie Ecclesiastical or Spiritual within this Realme but also by vertue of the same Othe I must renounce all forraine power and authorities which for a Christian man to doe is directly against these two Articles of our Crede Credo sanctaÌ„ ecclesiaÌ„ CatholicaÌ„ I do beleue the holy catholik â—hurch Credo SanctoruÌ„ coÌ„munioneÌ„ I do beleue the coÌ„munioÌ„ of saints And that there is a participatioÌ„ and coÌ„munion amongest al the beleuers of Christes Church which of the Apostle Paule are called Saincts Adiuro vos per DominuÌ„ vt legatur haec Epistola omnibus sanctis fratribus And herin I do ioyne this issue with your L. that whaÌ„ your L. shal be able to proue by Scripture Doctor General CouÌ„cell or by the coÌ„tinual practise of any one Church or part of al ChristeÌ„dome that by the first Article I beleue the holy Catholik Church is meant only that there is a Catholike Church of Christ and not so that by the same article euery ChristiaÌ„ man is bound to be subiect and obedient to the Catholike Church like as euery member ought to haue obedieÌ„ce vnto the whole mystical bodie of Christ. And further when you shall be hable to proue by the second Article I dooe beleue the Communion of Saints is not so meante that a Christian man oughte to beleeue such attonement suche a participation and communion to be amongest al beleeuers and members of Christes Catholike Churche in doctrine in faith in Religion and Sacramentes but that it is laufull for vs of this Realme therein to dissent from the Catholike Churche of Christe dispersed in all other Realmes and that by a corporal Othe it is laufull for
from the highest him self Bilike these meÌ„ would seme to be called as S. Paul was NoÌ„ ab hominibus neque per homineÌ„ sed per Iesum ChristuÌ„ Not of men nor by man but by Iesus Christ euen with a voice froÌ„ heauen O peuish pride and most foÌ„d presumption But to the matter The Lutherans or Martiniste Ministers of Antwerpe in their Confession haue one whole Chapter Contra errorem Sacramentariorum Against the errour of the Sacramentarâ—es It is the seuententh in number In that Chapter they proue the Reall presence and the Consecration of the Mysteries and they labour to coÌ„fute the fond obiectioÌ„s of the Sacramentaries vsed also very sadly of M. Iewel in his Replie against the Reall presence touching the tropicall sence of Christes wordes whiche they denie vtterly and touching the assension of Christe into heauen which they proue though by an other errour of their owne as Tiletanus at large declareth that the same article maketh nothiÌ„g against the Real or Corporal presence of Christ in the Sacrament Briefely the Lutherans do thus pronounce of your Brethern the Sacramentaries Communion M. Horne which you doe make so holy a matter The Lutheran Ministers of Antwerp in their printed Confession say thus Caluinistarum Leiturgia noÌ„ vno sacrilegio vitiata coÌ„taminataque est eoque proh dolor passim innumeras animas aeterno exitio inuoluit The CoÌ„munion of the Caluinists is defiled and contaminated with diuers Sacrilegies aÌ„d therfore alas it enwrappeth euery where infinit nuÌ„bers of soules into eternal damnatioÌ„ Lo M. Horne what agreemeÌ„t in Religion there is betwen you Protestaunts Your holy CoÌ„munion of England is coÌ„demned for sacrilegious and damnable of your owne brethren the scholers of Martin Luther whom your Apology commendeth for a most excellent man and one sent of God to lighten his Church All that frequente your holie Communion Maister Horne are damned saie the Lutherans of Antwerpe Bragge no more Maister Horne of your agreement Your horrible dissention glistereth so cleere cryeth so lowd and blustereth so great that as long as we haue eyes to see eares to heare and hands to fele we can not choose but behold it in the face we must nedes heare the voice of it and our senses must of necessitie palpablie feele it And the sight the voyce and the sense therof coÌ„uinceth vnto vs with an vnuincible Argument that your whole Religion is a cleere heresie as proceeding from the Deuill the spirit of dissention not from God who is the God of vnity peace and concorde The .160 Diuision Pag. 101. a. M. Fekenham The fourth and last point is that I must swere to the obseruatioÌ„ of this othe not only to the Quenes highnes aÌ„d our soueraign Lady that now is but also vnto her heyers and successours Kings and Queenes of this Realme And bicause euery Christian man ought to be carefull to auoid periurie therein I would right gladly knowe that if any her highnes successours should by the refusall of the said title of Supremacie bind her subiects by the like statute lawe vnto the cleane contrarie experience whereof was of late made here in this Realme that it is yet freshe in the memories of all men In this case I would right gladly knowe what authoritie is able to dispence againe with this Othe And if there be none at all then the subiectes of this Realme in this case are bounde and that by booke Othe to liue in a continuall disobedience to the lawes of their soueraigne Lord or Ladie King or Quene the case wherof is very lamentable And christian charity would that it shoulde be foreseene and prouided for And for mine owne parte being further touched herein then I haue yet expressed my very trust and hope is that the charity of this our newe refourmed Churche here in this realme shal not be found so colde and shorte as in prouiding so sharpe lawes and paines of death to force men to take this othe of the Quenes Highnes Supreamacie but that it will prouide also such meanes and wayes wherby the subiects may receiue the same with safe coÌ„science and without al periurie And in so doing I shal most willingly submit my selfe and receiue also that part of the Othe And shall further therevpon set foorth the Quenes highnes Supremacie with al Titles and Prerogatiues bothe by penne and worde of mouth and that with as desirous harte and glad will as any subiect that is this day liuing in her highnesse Realme So that of the premisses ye may well vnderstande that there is in mee no other cause of staie touching the later part of this Othe then very conscience And that I would before right gladly know touching these forenamed points how I might sweare vnto them and not committe periurie therein M. Hoâ—ne As euerie Christian man ought to be carefull to auoide Periurie both in this and al other matters euen so vvise men may vvell knovve vvhat you meane by the conditionall case ye put of the refusall by her highnesse Successours of this Title vvhereto the holy Ghoste maketh you this plaine ansvver Spes Hypocritae peribit The Hypocrites hope shall perishe You sprinkle this doubtfull case vvith a pouder of late experience â—vhiche seasoneth your mater De facto non de Iure For it is not lavvfull for any Christian prince to refuse .554 this Supremacie vvhich is the beste parte of his princely Ministery and seruice vnto God Neither may be more biâ—de his subiectes by lavve to become svvoren to the Pope and Poperye than to the â—55 greate â—urke and turkerie For that the Pope is a more perillous .556 ennemie vnto Christ than the turke and Popery much more Idolatrous then turkery And therefore there is no humaine Authoritie that can dispence vvith the violation of this lavvfull Othe made of duety vnto the Christian Princes This is a lameÌ„table case I grauÌ„t that subiectes should liue in coÌ„tinual disobedieÌ„ce to the lavves of the prince vvhether it happeÌ„ for that the lavves be so vngodly that a christian subiect may not vvith good coÌ„scieÌ„ce obey theÌ„ experience vvherof vvas of late made here in this Realme Or for that the stubbornesse of the subiect mainteined vvith a vvicked and yet a vaine hope be so stiffe that vvilfully he liueth in a coÌ„tinual disobedieÌ„ce to the Godly lavves of his soueragine vvherof experience is made novv at this time in you and a fevve others of your .557 conspiracie There is good cause vvhie ye should haue your very trust aÌ„d hope as you saie ye haue hovv vngratiousely soeuerye thiÌ„k assured of the charity of our church nevvly reformed after the rule of gods vvord vvherat ye Popish svvine grunte and groine For you in your ovvne self haue perfect experieÌ„ce that the supreme gouernour vnder Christ of this realm folovving the exaÌ„ple of her heaueÌ„ly father doth bouÌ„tifully of her goodnes vvith much more patieÌ„ce and loÌ„g sufferiÌ„g allure you to dutiful
author Athanasius hym selfe declareth out of the sayde Iulius epistle to the Arrians See Mayster Horne what a materiall thing ye haue lefte out so materiall I say that it maketh all your synodes and all your depriuations of the Catholyke Bishoppes voyde as were the doinges of the Arrians againste Athanasius Nowe as you haue lefte out these materiall thinges so haue ye browght foorth no materiall thing in the worlde to auoyde Athanasius authority And therefore for lacke of sounde and sufficient answere ye are driueÌ„ to make penish argumentes of your own and then to father them vppon M. Fekenham saying to him I doubt not but that ye see suche faulte in your fonde sequele that ye are or at the least wise owght to be ashamed thereof But the Sequele of M. FeckenhaÌ„ is this He saith to you with Athanasius wheÌ„ was yt heard from the creatioÌ„ of the world that the iudgmeÌ„te of the Church should take his authority of the Prince When was this agnised for a iudgement And so forth Yf the Prince be supreame head in al causes ecclesiastical if al iurisdictioÌ„ ecclesiastical be vnited and annexed to the crowne yf the synodical decrees of Bishoppes be nothing worth withowt the kinges expresse consente yf catholike Bishops be deposed by the Princes commissioÌ„ yf lay men only may alter the olde auncient religioÌ„ al which things with other like are now done and practised in Englande theÌ„ doth the Church iudgmeÌ„t in Englande take his authority of the prince and lay meÌ„ And then may we wel and ful pitifully cry out wheÌ„ was there any suche thinge froÌ„ the creatioÌ„ of the worlde heard of before This this is M. Fekenhams argument M. Horne this is his iuste and godly scruple that staieth him that he ruÌ„neth not headlong to the deuill in taking an vnlawful othe against his conscience settled vpoÌ„ no light but vppon the weighty growndes of holy scripture of general couÌ„cels of the holy and blessed fathers finally of the custome and belief of the whole catholike Churche and namely among all other of this authority brought out of Athanasius who also in an other place saieth that the Arrians assembles coulde not be called synodes wherin the Emperours deputy was president Wherefore it is a most opeÌ„ an impudent lye that ye say that M. FekeÌ„ham causeth Athanasius to beare false witnes against him self how proue you this good Syr By this say you that yt is euident by Athanasius and Hosius to that Princes haue to medle and deale in causes or thinges ecclesiasticall namely in calling of councelles for by this Constantius and his brother Constans the Sardicense councel was summoned A worthie solution perdy for you and a wonderfull contradictioÌ„ for Athanasius Ye shew vs that they called this couÌ„cel but that there was any thing spokeÌ„ or done in that couÌ„cell by Athanasius who was there present or other that should cause Athanasius to be coÌ„trary to him self ye shew nothing Shal I theÌ„ answere you as M. Iewel answereth M. D. Harding naming this councel but referring the Reader to the councel it self This couÌ„cel saith M. Iewell is brought in al in a mummery saying nothing And then he addeth yet forasmuche as these men thincke yt good policy to huddle vppe theire matters in the darke it wil not be amisse to rippe them abrode and bring theÌ„ forth to light And yet for all this great brauery and bragge he leaueth the matter of this couÌ„cel as he fownd yt and speaketh no more of yt one way or other Me think M. Horne that you treade much after his steps Ye name the couÌ„cel but ye tel vs not one materiall worde for your purpose out of it I wil therfore furnishe that that lacketh in M. Iewel and you especially seing the matter is suche as toucheth the deposing of Athanasius that is our present matter and withal al this your present Treatise and answere to M. Fekenham I say theÌ„ first the conditioÌ„s that ye require in a Bishoplie iudgmeÌ„t were here exactly obserued This couÌ„cel was farre aÌ„d free froÌ„ al feare farre froÌ„ the pallace Here were present no CouÌ„ties with souldiars as it was woÌ„t to be in the ArriaÌ„s synodes to extort the coÌ„sent of the Bishops WhervpoÌ„ the ArriaÌ„ bishops who were called to this couÌ„cel aÌ„d came thither in great nuÌ„ber seing this and seing Athanasius present whom they had vniustly deposed yea and ready to aÌ„swer theÌ„ and to disproue their wroÌ„gful doings and finding their own coÌ„sciencs withal gilty had no more hart to abide the triall of this free Synode then you and your other Protestante bretherne had to appeare in the Councell of Trent And therfore ful pretely shronke and stole awaie The order of this Councel was a verie Synodicall and an Episcopal iudgemeÌ„t Neither Emperour was present nor anie deputie for him that I haue yet read of though at the request of Constans the Catholike Emperour and by the assent of Constantius the Arrian that councel was assembled Neither was there either in the tyme of the councel or afterwarde the councel being ended anie consent or confirmation required of the Emperour and yet were there a greate number of Bishopes excommunicated and deposed to The sentence of Pope Iulius which in a councel at Rome a litle before restored Athanasius and other Bishopes by the Arrians in the Easte vniustly thruste out was exequuted Manie lawes orders and decrees touching matters ecclesiastical were in this councel ordeined Namely for deposing of Bishopes and placing others in theyr romes in all which yt was decreed that if a Bishope deposed by his fellowe Bishoppes at home for Princes deposed none in those daies though banish and expell they did would appeale to the Bishoppe of Rome that then the Bishops who had deposed the partie appealing should send informations to the Pope and that if he thought good the mater should be tried a freshe otherwise the former iudgement to take effect For final decision also of such appellatioÌ„s made to Rome it was in this general couÌ„cel decreed that the Pope might either appoint coÌ„mâ—ssioners to sit vpoÌ„ the matter in the Court from whence the Appeale came or if he thought so meete â–ª to send legates from his owne Consistory to decide the mater In lyke manner it was there decreed that Bishopes sâ—ould not haunte the Emperours palaice excepte for certaine godly suites there mentioned or inuited â—hiâ—her of the Emperour himselfe Also of Bishopes not to be made but such as had continewed in the inferiour orders certayne yeres c. it was in that councel decreed All which and diuers other ecclesiasticall maters that councel determined without any superiour Authoritie from the prince And so to conclude this one Councel that ye bring in but in a mummerie your false visor being taken from your face openeth what ye are and answereth fully al this your booke as wel for the principal mater that the Pope ys
I denie Againe In dede ye haue laboured more to fynd owt those reasons which ye might better vtter against your self than against me But in such a case ye shuld not nede to take suche paynes yf yow had shame in you Whether I say truely or no in this I referre thee good Reader to my whole answere and those that wil see it coÌ„pendiously proued to my preface and to the Conclusion of the thirde booke And here woulde I faine breake of my confutation of M. Hornes answere to S. Augustines testimony sauing that he doth otherwise so excedingly belie S. Augustine here that I may in no wise altogether passe ouer this shamelesse demeanure You say then M. Horne that S. Augustin aswel in his bookes against Iulian as in his bookes against the Donatistes is of your minde towching the ecclesiastical supremacy in Princes as ye say ye haue declared And that the Fathers whome S. Augustine citeth against IuliaÌ„ are of the same minde also Shewe me then good M. Horne but one authority out of S. Augustine or any one of the Fathers whome he reherseth which are Cyprianus Ireneus Basilius Hilarius Ambrosius Hieronymus and Pope Innocentius with others eyther that the Pope hath not the superiority in matters Ecclesiastical or that Princes haue the same All that hitherto ye haue browght out of S. Augustine with whose sayinges ye haue filled vp some leaues reacheth no farther theÌ„ that Princes may by their lawes punishe suche as be disobedieÌ„te to the Churche lawes for the whiche thing no man doth contende with you But we woulde fayne see you ones drawe to the question yt selfe and to shewe some open place of S. Augustine either for the Princes or againste the Popes supremacy wherin seing ye haue done nothing we wil assay what we call say for the Popes primacy by S. Augustine To auoyde tediousnes we will reherse but a fewe testimonies and suche onely as we haue taken out of his bokes againste the saide Donatistes and Pelagians Who is it then M. Horne but S. Augustine that writinge againste the Donatistes saith that the principality of S. Peters Apostleship is to be preferred before any other bishoprike Who is it but S. Augustine that vseth to bringe againste the Donatistes the authority of the sea of Rome as a singular and a principal authoritye Who ys yt but S. Augustine that writinge againste the saide Donatistes sayeth the sea of Peter is the rocke that the proude gates of hel do not ouercome Let vs now come a litle to the Pelagians Their capitain Pelagius and an other archeheretike of theire secte called Caelestius were condeÌ„ned by Pope Innocentius and Sozimus throwgh out at the Christian world They were also condemned in Aphrike by the bishops there Yet S. Augustine writeth not that they were condeÌ„ned by theÌ„ through out al the world as he doth of the said two Popes because the sentence of the Aphricane Bishoppes bounde the Aphricanes onely the Popes sentence bounde the whole worlde And therfore the sayed Bishoppes after they had condemned those heretikes desired Pope Innocentius to confirme their sentence which thing Innocentius did as appereth by his answere to the foresaide Bishoppes yet extant in S. Augustines works Which letters geue a verie ample testimony for the Popes supreamacye and sheweth amoÌ„g other things that yt was a rule kepte throwgh out al the worlde that in graue â–ª and weighty matters ecclesiastical and for the determinatioÌ„ of matters of faith nothing was wont to be done without the Popes consent and authority Againe S. Augustine writing against the saide PelagiaÌ„s sendeth his boks to Pope Bonifacius to examine and amende theÌ„ yf any thing misliked him and saieth that the saide Bonifacius had the preemineÌ„ce in the pastoral watchtowre S. Augustine also in this boke against Iulian the Pelagian numbring vp a number of holy and auncieÌ„te Bishoppes as Ireneus Cyprianus Hilarius and others saieth that Pope Innocentius though he were later in time yet was he before them for his place and dignity He doth vrge and presse very muche the saide Iulian with the authority of the Apostolicall sea and of the sayde Innocentius Yea and that for an heresy that your Apostle Caluin and our good new bretherne in Englande both in theire preachinges and teachinges do mainteine that is that children thoughe they be not baptised shall yet that notwithstanding enioy the euerlastinge life These testimonies do fully declare S. Augustines minde touching the Popes Supremacy quite repugnante to the doctrine of this your booke Wherby yt appereth that ye litle regarde howe and after what sorte ye doe alleadge hym and that ye doe not alleadge him for any good matter ye fynde in him but onely to make an owtwarde shewe and apparance to the vnlearned and vnskilful people to beguile them wyth smothe talke and fayre wordes The .179 Diuision pag. 126. b. M. Fekenham After long expectation and many promises his L. final answeare to the sayd obiections was as hereafter foloweth For as much as I doo perceiue that you are not to be resolued in this matter I shal here stay and procede no further with you in the same and like as you haue bene so you shal be vnto me most hartely welcome You shal lacke nothinge that is in my house to pleasure you And from hencefoorth I shal leaue to haue any further talke or conference with you in these controuersies of Religion And for all such talke and wryting as hath passed already betwene vs I shal perfourme this my promise both first and last made vnto you that you shal be well assured not to suffer any hurte or dammage thereby M. Horne You deliuered this obiection vnto me in vvritinge betvvixt Easter and VVhitsontyde about the ende of Aprill vvithin tvvo daies folovving vvhen I had redde the same I tould you that in the collection of your common places you vvere much abused for that you had mistaken theÌ„ and obserued no iuste circumstances of the authorities vvhereby to haue knovven the authours meaning And so vvee continued in debatinge and reasoning from time to time about this matter of Iurisdiction and others vntil the beginning of September folovving before vvhich time your obstinacy grevve so much that I vvas forced through your vnorderly behauiour to restreigne you of your liceÌ„tious talke and sequester you from conference vvith any hauinge so muche before abused your self and especially in mine absence and I vvas the rather moued so to dâ—o for that I perceiued al that I did vvas but in vaine as at diuerse times and often I repeated that vnto you obstinatelie bente to the contrarie meaninge by such stoutenesse to recouer your credite vvhiche through your inconstancy vvas so empaired amongest your friendes I sayd at your first comming and many times after you beinge sente by the Honourable Councel that you vvere vvelcome vvhich by good proufe although vtterly vvithout any your good deserte yee founde true I did say that