perceiue we shall haue a new booke of counsels to frame a new consistory withall to put the blame from himselfe he putteth it on Illyricus as true a quoter of textes almost as euer was Th. Cartwr his scholler but suppose that which 1 Catal. test veritat pag. 121. Illyricus hath of this counsell were true yet can not the wordes of the counsell be interpreted against bishops for suppose that a bishop may not be a King or Prince and that the callings be distinct yet may hee haue episcopall iurisdiction against which that counsell is alledged To helpe his aray of counsels hee bringeth in a supply of Fathers but very vnlike it is that they should speake against counsels being diuers of them chiefe doers in diuers counsels and therefore let him take heede least while hee mustereth the names of Fathers against bishops the men themselues doe not all fight against him That Cyprian is contrary to his allegation it is notorious for he establisheth the dignitie of bishops and vtterly ruinateth the cause of the new come gentlemen called Church-aldermen Hee subiecteth the whole 2 Lib. 1. ep 3. brotherhoode to the bishop and sayth that the same obedience is according to the commaundements of God The same authoritie is confirmed by the letters of the clergie of Rome to Cyprian Post Fabiani 3 Lib. 2. ep 7. excessum say they non est constitutus à nobis episcopus qui omnia ista moderetur He giueth to bishops the 4 Lib. 3. ep 9. succession of the Apostles and from no 5 Lib. 4. ep 9. lib. 1. ep 3. other roote doeth hee suppose heresies and schismes to spring then from contempt of the authoritie of Bishoppes So shamelesse is this Libeller to alledge Cyprian against bishops that in the places aboue named yea and in the 6 Lib. 3. ep 10. places by him quoted doth confirme their authoritie For albeit Cyprian doeth say that from his first entrance into his charge hee had determined to doe nothing but by the consent of the people and counsell of his Clergie yet doeth it not make against his superioritie nay it confirmeth it rather For with vs Bishops may doe nothing without lawe which is a most certaine consent nay good Princes rule by counsell and Lawes and yet they will not denie but that Princes in all places and Bishops with vs haue a superiour aucthoritie ouer those that are committed to them And Cyprian in that selfe same Epistle writing to the priestes and Deacons vseth these woordes I 1 Hortor mando exhorte and commaund yea further hee prescribed what was to bee done both concerning the poore and confessors and 2 Vice mea fungamini circagerenda quae religiosa administratio deposcit made a deputation to others that were to gouerne in his absence as much or rather more then bishops may with vs take vpon them to doe Likewise in the 14 Epistle of his thirde booke alledged also against bishops there are found manifest argumentes for their authoritie For hee reprehendeth the presumption of certaine Ministers too rash in reconciling those that had fallen and declareth vnto them that the Bishop is 3 Ep. 14. episcopus ipsis praepositus set ouer them and that their place is vnder the bishop of which 4 Loci sui immemores they were vnmindfull that the bishops duetie was to 5 Vt instructi à praepositis faciant omnia instruct them and their dutie to obey him It is euident that this author was not much acquainted with Cyprian that alledgeth him thus cōtrary to his meaning which is most childish and absurd quoteth the 27 epistle of Cyprians 3 booke where there are onely 15 epistles there In 6 Lib. 1. ep 9. another place Cyprian reprehendeth a certaine minister being apointed gardein to orphans executor of a testament but how the same may be drawen to make against the estate of bishops I vnderstand not for bishops among vs desire no such matter as that which Cyprian cōdemneth neither came it euer in Cyprians meaning to condemne the authoritie of Bishops as it is vsed in this Realme If hee speake against any it is especially against T. C. for albeit he be a Minister as he sayth himselfe yet refused he not the execution of his brother Stubbes his will no nor refuseth the gouernment of his Hospitall and therefore this fellowe seemeth vnwise thus deepely to lanch his deare brother T.C. whose purchases and purloynings hee hath taken on him to defend where in the meane while the state of Bishops for any thing Cyprian sayth standeth inviolable nay in the same place their iurisdiction is confirmed for Cyprian being a Bishop taketh on him to reforme Ministers and giueth bishops 1 Episcopi antecessores nostri censuerunt c. sacerdotum decretum authoritie to make ecclesiasticall lawes which pearceth the Church-aldermen that long for superioritie to the very heart Finally he taketh on him to punish disorders then which authoritie what can be greater 2 Dist 10. c. quoniā idem Gratian also extolleth Bishops aboue Princes so farre is hee from speaking against Bishoppes or their authoritie so that to alledge Gratian for proofe is as much as to vse corrosiues for pleasant medicines Neither doth it take away or diminish the authoritie and state of Bishoppes that by the Canons they may not encroche vpon the Princes authoritie in Ciuill causes for wee say that the vocation of Magistracie and ministerie is distinct and that Bishoppes in England doe not in respect they are ministers meddle with Ciuil causes but as they are subiects and are commanded Wherein they doe not shewe themselues busie in encrochments in taking on them charges imposed but shoulde shewe themselues disloyall persons at least no good subiects if they shoulde refuse them the consistoriall faction contrariwise doeth encroche both vpon Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernours hauing authoritie from neither and intrude themselues where no man sendeth for them or admitteth them After Cyprian Tertullians 3 De ieiunio booke of fasting is by force drawen in by the imperious Consistorials for euidence against Bishops which I cannot but wonder at seeing they condemne both fasting in Lent other fasts which he alloweth and the degree state of bishops which he commendeth in his booke 1 Lib. de baptism of baptisme where hee giueth the chiefetie and praerogatiue of Priesthoode to Bishoppes expelling out the impudent Aldermen that nowe are crept in I knowe not by what strange concetie into Churchgouerment In the booke of fasting there is not so much as the office of bishoppes mentioned much lesse any speach against them there is order taken for their allowance which the sacrilegious consistorials that haue ruinated the Church in all places where they come doe denie them In the same place Tertullian doth construe the place 1. Timoth. 5.17 against these men for hee onely vnderstandeth by Elders that rule
is against all lawe all practise yea against all reason Therefore euen the malcontent disciplinarians that take away the name giue notwithstanding the authoritie of Bishops to their rulers of Synodes in whome if the same were as they say vnlawfull no reason it should bee continued any little time And further vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denying superioritie to Bishops ouer ministers they doe notwithstanding giue an vnbrideled and absolute authoritie to the Consistories These arguments and others which I haue set downe stand vnanswered that which is sayd against bishops may be most easily and hath often bene answered neither doth this vnlettered fellow bring either new arguments or confirme the olde nay he leaueth all arguments which his fellowes haue brought out of scriptures therein shewing good iudgement for in deede it is absurd to thinke that bishops may be ouerthrowen by scriptures vpon which their authoritie is built I wonder with what face after so many proofes brought in this cause hee durst goe about without arguments to ouerthrowe that which hath such grounde vpon scriptures lawes reasons onely for a shewe he hath brought a number of names of * Pag. 10. 11. counsels fathers Churches and late writers but when the matter shall come to triall it shall be found that they doe all forsake him in this cause and that both they and infinite more then these speake against him I answere therefore first generally that it is no good argument that in this cause is drawen from Daneau Tauergues Perot Chauneton Carpentier or other of their faction Secondly that these counsels and fathers and Churches and learned men which he quoteth haue not oppugned Bishops or their gouernement The canons of the Apostles are placed in forefront of this aray against Bishops Can. 6. c. 80. not that they speake against thē but for that it pleaseth the petitioner to make some shewe in the entrance of his matter of apostolicall authoritie in the sixt Canon there is no mention made of Episcopall iurisdiction so that it may appeare that he looked not on the place It may be he meant the seuenth Canon for there both Bishops Priestes and Deacons are forbidden to meddle with worldly affaires and in the 80 Canon Bishops Priestes are charged not to intrude themselues into publike charges But neither place maketh one word against the superioritie of Bishops ouer Ministers nor their authoritie in ordination excommunication and other Ecclesiastical matters for which they are alledged nay contrariwise they giue ordination 1 Can. 2. 36 of Ministers to Bishops and plainely distinguish 2 c. 1. 2. 40. Bishops and priestes giuing to Bishops both superioritie ouer priests and also the 3 c. 40. 41. disposing of the affaires of the Church that Bishops in the primitiue Church were excluded from ciuil charges the reason was for that the Emperors were yet heathen and therefore without danger of impietie none could deale in office vnder them and in those times the offices about collection of the Emperors rentes were 4 ff de decurionib burdensome and dishonorable and therefore no maruaile if Bishops might not beare them last of all they were subiect to accomptes yet howsoeuer it was the Canons forbid not Bishops to susteine a charge imposed vpon them but ambitiously to seeke such charges generally seculer matters were not forbidden Bishops as may appeare in the same Canons 5 c. 41. so that neither doe these places make against our bishops vnder Christian princes in common wealthes wherein they are subiectes as wel as others and by their authoritie helpe their calling yea and the whole ministerie vnder them and no way hurt it neither doe they fit the petitionners purpose For Bishops by their episcopall office doe claime no ciuil authoritie nor doeth it folowe because Bishops may not beare certeine ciuil offices that therefore they are not to exercise episcopall authoritie as the petitionner doeth insinuate Next to the Apostles Canons as they are called hee citeth the 6 counsell of Carthage 19. c. but there do not appeare any Canons to haue beene made in that counsell so wide is the man from his marke commonly his fellowes vse to alledge the 4 counsell and 18 and 19 Canon yet doe not these canons fit their turne for nothing is there spoken against the office of Bishops either in ordination or contentious iurisdiction onely Bishoppes are forbidden to take on them the execution of testaments which notwithstanding hath 1 Concil Chalced. c. 3. exceptions and to bee common quarrellers in lawe which no man thinketh conuenient neyther canon maketh any thing to the purpose were not this man without discretion he would neuer alledge this counsell against Bishops that so 2 c. 3.27 31.55.68 diuersly confirmeth the authoritie of them and condemneth such 3 c. 57 67. libellers and raylors as the authors of this petition Neyther doth the counsell of Chalcedon decree any thing against the state of Bishoppes the Canons alledged onely forbid them as the puritane Ministers whereof some are grasiers some fermers some malsters doe vse to doe to hire grounds which payd rent and tribute to the Emperor or to deale in ciuil affaires or warfare least therby they should neglect their ministerie a pregnant place against diuers of these counterfeit hypocrites that shaking of their Ministerie and disdeining the base accompt of it trade in vsurie marchandise fermes and other such like occupations giuing ouer themselues to serue mammon This counsel maketh nothing for the cause of Puritans for it establisheth the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops and condemneth such malitious and factious persons as they are that by 1 c. 17. calumnious accusations conspire the hurt or disgrace of their bishops The Petitioner doth also alledge the 6 counsell of Constantinople yet doe we not in the bookes of counsels finde any of that number nor in any counsell holden at Constantinople any thing against the authoritie or dignitie of bishops it may be he mistooke the 6 counsell of Constantinople for the 6 synode yet doeth not that speake against bishops but rather enacteth diuers 2 Synod 6. ca. 9. 10. cannons against vsurie a practise which Th. Cartw. and W. Ch. and others might doe well not to vse and for the dignitie of bishops many 3 Synod 6. c. 31. 36. 37. places To let vs further vnderstand his ignorance hee quoteth the 3 counsell of Turon whereas there were neuer but two there in neither of them any word sounding against the authoritie of bishops perhaps he meant by names of coūsels to face downe simple men or thinketh it no sinne for the glory of the consistorie to lye I beseech him to shewe vs where this 3 counsel of Turon may be found and then he shall haue further answere Beside the new third counsel of Turon he hath deuised a new counsell also of Macra which course if he hold on I
vs with their consistoriall presumptiō and yet did we not deale against their churches For that I wrote against the presbyterie I did it in respect that the same was obtruded to our church by a certaine vnlearned bold Italian that I wrote in Latine the cause was the Italians and Bezaes dealing for their presbyterie in Latine and also to let others vnderstād that our cause is such as we are able well to defend against Beza and all consistorials whatsoeuer and therefore seeing we meane not to obtrude our gouernement to them and so professe in our bookes let thē keepe their consistorie to thēselues and make much of it that it fal not to the ground for it is in very weake case Bezaes simple discourse doth yeeld it no comfort If any doe come forth to reply I do protest it is he that maketh the stirre and not I. and therefore for cōmon ease it were best for al to keepe silence but if they meane to prate of the glory of the consistory which our platformers esteeme as an idoll they must expect an answere and let not Beza thinke that his fond disputes against vs in his late three halfe penie pamphlet shall passe for oracles To returne to the libeller I answere that neither is it true that we handle the matter doubtfully for we are all resolued in our positiōs against thē nor that they hold their opinions resolutely for neither concerning the institution partes authoritie nor office of their consistorie doe any two of them agree neither doth it seeme probable that euer they wil agree they are at such contention among themselues for neither doe they knowe what they would haue nor wherefore Secondly I say that this argument is most simple and mishapen for suppose that two or three should handle the cause of the Church simplie it were no reason for the ignorance and simple dealing of two or three that the Chuch should be ouerturned and that new lawes and lordings shoulde come in place yet this is his wise conclusion because all doe not agree in all pointes that the matter must be called in question and bishops be displaced that certaine coate cardes in short ierkins may come in place to rule all either by their diuine inspiration or else according as Th. Cartw. the oracle of discipline shall determine which reason if it were admitted then howsoeuer we reteine the present gouernement yet shall wee for euer be discharged of the consistorie the patrons whereof contrarie one another most absurdly in infinit places write most irresolutely and strangely Lastly to bring the ecclesiastical state into question He alledgeth first that our lawes expect a further reformation that such as haue written against papistes puritans haue found imperfectiōs in our gouernemēt Which if he meane in the frame of our discipline or in respect that we haue bishops or want consistories he is abused they neither expect such a reformatiō nor auow any such thing by a certaine statute of K. Henry 8 power was giuen to 32 persons to gather into one body such lawes ecclesiastical as were nether repugnant to the lawes of the realme nor prerogatiue royall That they had as the petitioner saith authoritie to correct good lawes or to make new lawes is the first vntrueth The second vn trueth is That D. Cranmer other learned men did collecte the lawes into one booke for the booke that came forth with the title of Correctio legum Angliae was gathered not by D. Cranmer but by D. Haddon and that very simply without iudgemēt insomuch as al men of iudgemēt disliked it afterward himselfe also was ashamed of it nay contrary to the authoritie giuen him by statute he tooke vpon him not to gather lawes together but to gather a packe of new fancies together and to make new lawes coontrarie to the Ecclesiasticall lawes of the realme yea contrarie to equitie and reason as I shall iustifie if any will challenge me for it The lawes of nursing of children and marriages will verifie all that I say yea and his owne testimonie giuen of it Last of all the lawe whereby this collection of lawes was authorised is now repealed and not necessarie For albeit all doe not yet some knowe what is lawe but suppose ecclesiastical lawes that are in force should begathered together doeth it therefore followe that ecclesiasticall lawes must be all changed howsoeuer it is let not the aldermen bragge of these lawes for therein the authoritie of Bishops is confirmed churchaldermen not so much as mentioned they must therefore looke in some other place for in this booke their Consistorial conceites are not to be found In the booke of Common prayer there is a Commination prescribed to be vsed vntil an order of discipline practised in the primitiue Church should be restored But what maketh that for the establishment of the consistoriall discipline which was neither in the primitie Church nor in the cogitation of the authors of that booke the meaning of the booke is onely that the commination there mentioned shoulde be vsed vntil such time as in the time of Lent offenders might be brought to humble themselues as they did in the primitiue Church and that more fauour might be giuen to the execution of ecclesiastical lawes which is that discipline which they desire these felowes withstand and therefore hereafter I thinke wil not call for discipline for if the same were once executed then would not euery contentious person degorge his malice against lawe nor libellers and scismatickes be suffered to declaime against the state nor euery vnlearned mate be suffered to preach false doctrine and reuell at all antiquitie Neither doeth it followe because in the ordination of Mininisters it is saide take thou authoritie to preach the worde of God that euery Minister is apointed a preacher and that none are to be appointed Ministers but such as can preach which is that they desire And this libeller affirmeth for the exception which doth abbridge the lawe is 1 This practise is condemned by the law inciuile est ff de legebus cautelously and malitiously left out wherein he sheweth that his cause cannot stand but by forging and forcing the wordes are Take thou authoritie to preach where thou shalt be so appointed These fellowes disdaine appointmēt would runne before they be sent but vnlesse many had more learning and discretion it were better that some of those that take on them to preach were set to reade and such as runne so fast were made to sit still In Flaunders according to the rules of this discipline they would needes at the first haue euery one to preach but when they sawe the great inconuenience that came of it they put them to reade Caluins homilies on Iob. but suppose that in the point of discipline of Lent or in the number and qualities of preachers we haue not that we desire doeth it therefore followe that the Ecclesiasticall state
Egerton seeme to haue had intelligence with Copinger one of Hackets prophets as for Wigginton it is apparant that he was a chiefe slirrer in that action 21 Being cōuented for diuers misdemeanors they refuse the ordinarie trials of lawe 22 In the Vniuersities by bringing in the studie of Ramus writinges a man ignorant in Logicke and artes and fantasticall in all actions they haue almost ouerthrowen all good learning by studying of naked comments all sound diuinitie 23 In liuing lewdly themselues Rescij in ministromach Sanderus de schismate Rosseus and by infamous libels disgracing the Ministerie they haue giuen aduantage to the enemie and brought religion into contempt 24 They are but made instruments by some persons to worke the spoile of the Church whereof they are like to haue small part 25 In all places where this discipline is setled they haue ouerthrowen the authoritie of the Magistrate the state of the Church and vniuersities 26 Nay by diuers strange positions they goe about to bring in diuers heresies 27 They haue in their lewde 1 In their new Communion booke paraphrase vpon the Creede taken out two Articles out of the Creede viz. that of Christes buriall and of his descending into hell and haue added a new Article of their discipline 28 They affirme that hatred as it is an attribute in God 2 Fenner Theolog lib. 1. is the essence of God and teach very badly of the essence and persons 29 Penrie holdeth that Christ Iesus is the worde preached 30 They doe generally beleeue that the worde read is but a dead letter and no ordinarie meanes to engender faith which is the opinion of the 3 Bozius in libr. de signis ecclesiae papistes 31 Martin doeth scoffe at the holy virgine Saint Mary and Saint Peter and calleth them Sir Peter and Sir Mary in scorne and maketh a scoffe both at gouernement and religion 32 In leauing the studie of fathers and ancient writers and schoole learning all the puritans are become verbal diuines without soundmatter 33 To prooue their deuises they haue offered great violence to the holy scriptures expounding them contrary both to ancient fathers and histories and common reason as namely their common places alledged out of the 18. of Matthew 1. Timothie 5. Romains 12.1 Corinthians 12. Ephesians 4. vpon the false interpretation of nine or ten places all their deuises doe stand 34 Themselues doe not agree either in the exposition of these places or in their rules concerning the presbyterie 35 Some interprete the wordes If thy brother offend against thee of priuate offences others of publike offences others of both 36 The Elders that are mentioned in the 14 of the Actes some expound Ministers of the word others churchaldermen 37 The wordes Dic Ecclesiae some expound of the Consistorie others of the Synode others of the conferences 38 Themselues confesse that they are not resolued in many pointes I haue set downe otherwhere infinite matters which they can neuer resolue 39 Themselues doe many wayes contrary to their discipline they condemne the reading of Apocrypha in the Church yet doe they allowe verball sermons wherein often times fall out strange doctrines and many vncharitable discourses which no man is so sencelesse I thinke as to preferre before the Apocryphall scriptures that are read in the Church They interprete Caluins Catechisme and other such like bookes which they cannot shewe to be canonicall 40 They teach that he that beareth not the Church is to be accounted a heathen and publican yet doe they not so accept him when the Synode iudgeth contrarie to the Consistorie 41 They say that euery Church hath equall right yet the parishes about Geneua haue no Consistories nor doctors nor execution of discipline but depend vpon them of the citie of Geneua 42 They say no man may enter the ministerie without lawfull calling yet haue Th. C. and Wat. Tr. and diuers of this sort here taken vpon them the ministerie without lawfull calling and intruded into others charges to the great disturbance of Gods Church 43 In Bishops and other ministers of this Church they condemne the mingling of matters ciuill and ecclesiasticall and account the same vnlawful yet doe none meddle with matters of state more then this faction yea diuers of them doe deale in base trades 44 Here they condemne ciuil honours in ecclesiastical persons yet is Beza one of the chiefe men both for reuenues and honor in the kingdome of Geneua and our puritanes receiue his letters like Apolloes Oracles 45 At Geneua and in all this newe gouernement lay men intrude into church gouernment and are made aldermen and Deacons 46 They condemne the authoritie of Bishops here yet doe they giue their consistories twise so large authoritie for here Bishops can doe nothing but according to lawe there as oft as it shall please the Consistorie without lawe or colour they may turne out all their Ministers and pastors to seeke pasture other where 47 Here they teach that Doctors and pastors are distinct officers yet at Geneua Beza is both pastor and doctor and others haue susteined both offices 48 All of them doe holde Fruitefull sermon that widowes and deacons are members of Christes bodie as they sticke not to auowe and yet in no churches haue they widowes nor ecclesiasticall deacons but onely certeine counterfet almesgatherers that are good for nothing but to stand with a boxe at the Church doore wherein the liuing and hope of many poore pastors in diuers places consisteth 49 In the disciplinarian kingdome the Ministers commonly liue in extreme contempt and pouertie so that fewe of worth take on them the calling which if order be not taken will be the ruine of religion 50 By the ordinances of Geneua onely the Ministers life in their visitations is looked vnto and no article set downe for enquirie of others conuersation so that it appeareth that this discipline is nothing but a deuise for the abasing and ouerthrowe and treading under feete of the Ministerie of the Gospell 51 There is no meanes giuen to the ministers to mainteine themselues much lesse their wiues and children awake therefore you my masters of the Church your enemies seeke your ruine 52 All matters wherein is breach of charitie the Consistories do take vpon them to order and to moderate rigorous dealing in lawe this toucheth your freehold my masters that studie the cōmon lawes 53 They take on them to moderate likewise all rigorous dealing in priuate contractes which concerneth all marchants and men of trade verie neerely 54 They take vpon them to apoint what rewardes shall be giuen to learning and how long they shall enioy them and yet you my masters of the Vniuersitie doe fauour these conceites which are the ruine of your selues and your succession 55 They giue the managing of Church goods into the hands of men of occupation and make the Ministers to depend on their deuotion a matter not to encourage but to discourage
contra tyrannos whom many affirme to bee Beza or Hotoman doth giue power to the subiectes not onely to resist but also to depose and kill the prince if he oppugne Gods lawes and religion whereof they make their discipline a glorious part That this was the opinion of them of Geneua is apparant by the wordes of 4 In an Epistle sent from Die p. hist scotl Knoxe who not onely allowed the doctrine but put it in fragrant practise in Scotland Neyther may we thinke that our platformers haue dissented from their masters Fenner in his booke of diuinitie which Th. Cartw. so well liketh that hee calleth the doctrine of it the vndubitable rules of heauenly Canaan 5 Theolog. Fen p. 186. saith that in euery common wealth there ought to be by the law of God certaine Ephori or magistrates which ought to haue as in Sparta they had authoritie not onely to ouerrule but also to depose the prince According to their doctrine they haue proceeded in writing speaking doing Martin most shamefully rayleth at the present gouernement and wisheth 1 Epitome of Martin that the parliament woulde bring in the eldership notwithstanding her Maiesties resisting it viz. by a rebellion They made diuerse meetings they inueyghed against the state in their publike and priuate speeches in the ende they procured throughout the Realme certayne subscriptions themselues bragged of a hundred thousande handes In playne tearmes they talked of 2 Wight massacring of their aduersaries And Snape in one of his letters sayeth what will you say if wee ouethrowe the Bishops and that gouernement in one day Their further malice appeareth in the Epistle before their leude demonstrations of discipline when all things were readie out startes Hackets two prophetes to mooue the people to rebellion that what they coulde not haue by intreatie they might winne by treason and rebellion That they intended the deliuerie of certaine factious persons committed to prison and to erect the presbyteries and to suppresse the gouernours and lawes their letters examinations and writings doe declare And yet forsooth this ignorant fellowe holdeth thar they neuer went about to mooue any stirre or rebellion percase hee thought these matters had not bene knowen Seuenthly he obiecteth further that if his clientes intende rebellion then the lawes also and bishops doe intende rebellion for that they expect likewise further reformation But the case is vnlike Good men desire reformation of manners by execution of good lawes and supplie of imperfections They stand for the state they withstand all innouations they proceede orderly These fellowes contrariwise seeke the ouerthrowe of infinite lawes of infinite officers and that by reuelling and disorder they seeke the establishment of an vncouth and vnknowen gouernement by faction and conspiracie odious to all states and good men Neyther can hee shroud his clyents vnder master Nowels authoritie for they want much of his learning and honestie and farre diuerse is that eldership hee meaneth from this packe of elders that they desire Neither because printers sell popish bookes by which some are mooued to discontentment doth it follow that therefore it is lawful to mooue discontentment for neyther may they sell them but to men knowen and licenced without punishment nor are all popish bookes of one sort As for Doctor Percy I thinke he doth not set foorth newe lawes nor newe common wealthes but for ease and introduction of students doth gather a summe of all lawes in force but the libellers furious mates would burne them and vtterly ouerthrow law that we might depend vpon the variable oracles of the presbyterie which he seeketh to erect Eightly hee addeth that many doe maintaine papistes and traitors and yet doe not mooue discontentment vnto which I am content that hee maketh his clyentes like for I doe not knowe any in England that hath procured the discharge of more recusants and that not gratis or more holpen them then certaine capitall and principall puritanes The libeller knoweth whome I meane The exception is friuolous and false for neyther are they to bee allowed that maintayne papistes nor puritanes or that procure their discharge Nor may we thinke but that they that maintaine them meane no good to the state and therefore let the gentle dunse aduise hereafter what hee sayeth and not disgrace his best friendes nor lye to no purpose nor benefite of his cause And finally let him not say our argumentes are nought vnlesse hee reply better hitherto hee hath sweate and sayde nothing yea and when hee hath sweate out all his wit yet can he not answere any one title of our reasons The reason that hee setteth downe is his owne reason and is senceles in deed and proceedeth from a man voyd of wisedome learning and honestie But the same set downe in good tearmes will make him in deede ashamed but not as he saith to answere it but because hee cannot answere it No though he professe to speake for the innocent He should haue sayd in the cause of the dumbe for so are the wordes of T. C. his masters text But his clyentes they haue spoken too much and wish themselues they had bene dumbe Now albeit they be not mute yet he taketh them to be innocent and that in his opinion Is not this a worthy fellow thinke you that opposeth his fond and loose opinion against the euidence of witnesses verdict of the iurie sentence of the iudge But what shoulde we looke for other at these mens handes whose braue consistorie and all their learning standeth on 3 or 4 mens opinions But let vs heare what he bringeth to answere our obiections and for discharge of his clyentes that stand at the barre He sayth that Martin where he threatneth that Doctor Bridges shall haue xx fistes about his eares meaneth that many shall write against him A goodly comment As if puritanes wrote with fists rather then fingers which may very well bee for their writing is seditious rude and vnciuill To prooue that Martin meaneth so he alledgeth first that Martin is no Atheist nor papist But there is great doubt of papisme and flat proofe of atheisme for who scoffeth at religion but Atheists and peruerteth scriptures in scorne but such as beleeue no God Secondly he saith xx is too few to make a rebellion But the patch might vnderstād that one is inough to begin a mutinie And that if D. Bridges shall haue xx fistes against him their meaning is that others shall haue many more about them for I thinke their quarrell is not onely against D. Bridges In the ende the libeller seeing his cause desperate saith that hanging is too good for Martin which I yeelde vnto and assigne the libeller for his paynes to be the executioner And thus the noble Martin viz. I. Penry I. Vd. I. F. all Iohns and I. Thr. that all concurred in making of Martin must by sentence of the libeller if they had any euill purpose goe to the gybet to feede Rauens That
directions Neither is the inquisition which we haue deriued from the pope but vsed of al nations contrariwise the inquisition of the cōsistorie is like to the Spanish inquisition the papal proceeding For as in the Spanish inquisition so in the consistorie a man is called knoweth no accuser and whether hee confesse or not hee is sure to abide the order of the consistorie and what they command the ciuill Iudge performeth And therefore if all must away whatsoeuer is borowed from the pope away must the consistorie goe and their excommunication of princes and their absolute tyrannie Quaere if Christ were before the bishops should answere Putcase Quaest 17. beeing demanded of his doctrine I spake openly c. Aske them that hearde me whether he should be committed as M. Bambridge M. Iohnson and other godly ministers This question touching Iohnson and Bambridge concerneth the ecclesiasticall state nothing at all Answere For their cause was heard and ended at Cambridge before the Vicechanceller and his assistants so that it should seeme to bee a case put besides the cause in handling But in the same wee may see that these fellowes meane no lesse to ouerthrow the state priuiledges and iurisdiction of the Vniuersities then of the bishops Marke it therefore you my masters of the Vniuersities These fellowes whom you foster in your bosomes meane to touch your freehold also neither can they conceale their malice against all men of learning To answere this absurd question I say that I cannot chuse but wonder that any shoulde bee so blasphemous and wicked as to compare Christ Iesus the sonne of God vnto Iohnson a factious companion and a wicked heretike Out of Cambridge hee was expulsed for his mutinous Sermon and other leude behauiour From thence he went to Middleborough a retrait of such kinde of fellowes There hee declined into Barrowisme wherein hee now continueth hauing augmented his opinions with many newe fancies of his owne Bambridge a man somewhat wiser then Iohnson yet neyther to be compared with Christ nor any verie discreete or modest Christian Christ neuer declaimed against the state of priests nor did hee spreade newe doctrines nor did he spurne against gouernours These haue done al these things and it is the cōmon practise of all such as bee of this sort Christ did not refuse to answere directly and confessed that he was the sonne of God These stand not vpon their innocencie but vpon tearmes of lawe Neyther doth the example of our Sauiour fit them For hee being asked of his doctrine in generall coulde not otherwise answere then in generall These refuse to answere in particular poyntes which he did neuer and therefore iustly were committed A matter iustifiable both by the lawes of God also the lawes ciuill canon and common If being to answere in the Starre Chamber or Chancerie vnto certaine articles they shoulde answere That they deliuered nothing but publikely and will the examiner to aske them that heard and saw they would bee sent to other places to aduise vpon the matter Further I say it will not fall out in proofe that those men which haue bene conuented before the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical are either godly or wise or ministers therefore false it is that he affirmeth them to bee godly ministers and very scandalous to the state whom he setteth forth as a state persecuting Christ Iesus whereas in deed these men by defacing the Church and the gouernours thereof by teaching of erronious doctrine and by raising of stirres about a new gouernment which was neuer heard of in Christs Church do shew themselues enemies of Christ of his Church and of his Gospel and therefore together with Iohnson of whom themselues are now ashamed to bee cast out of the Church vnlesse they shew more signes of amendment Quaere Putcase Quaest 18. if by the iudiciall lawes by the Court in Chauncerie or Starre Chamber any man be forced to sweare before hee knowe the cause at least in generall whereunto he is to take his oath Suppose a man should graunt so much Answere albeit the vse be not alwayes so what will he conclude That the high commissioners proceede contrarie to lawe His purpose is so to doe but his argument will not so conclude vnlesse he shewe that they doe not also declare in generall the summe of the matter to which euery one is to answere But that he cannot doe and therefore I returne him backe to his prompters to frame his case better and doe reiect him as alledging matters not concludent In the meane while let him vnderstand thus much that the proceeding of Ecclesiasticall courtes in exacting of othes is not onely confirmed by all lawes but also by the practise of Geneua the patriarchall sea of puritans Quaere whether Bishops be not bound to confirme children Putcase Quest 19. aswel as Ministers to marrie with a Ring And whether may not popish young men not being confirmed refuse the Communion He would conclude Answere that because Bishops neglect some part of their duetie it is lawfull for his consortes to breake all lawes but the sequele is naught That children are not confirmed the fault is in parents that bring them not of these seducers that preach against confirmation not in Bishops And therefore if any refuse to receiue the Communion it is no reason he shoulde receaue benefite by his owne negligence but rather be punished for both faultes In that he ioyneth popish young men together with fantasticall young Ministers which refuse to marrie with the Ring he doeth not amisse for they doe both consent in oppugning the state and therefore are both to be punished neither will the pleading of the Bishops negligence if any be serue either of them Quaere Putcase Quest 20. whether an Ecclesiasticall Iudge may punish Bristowe for writing that our Communion booke is an apish imitation of the Masse-booke seeing the statute giueth onely that authoritie to Iustices of peace and whether Bristowe deprauing the Communion booke may be depriued of all his spirituall promotions for his first offence c. Item whether the lawe doeth not fauour the puritan as much as the papist The case is absurdly put Answere for it supposeth matters vnprobable as that Bristowe should haue certein spiritual promotions in England had onely offended in speaking against the Communion booke whereas the man did wilfully flye out of his countrie for his mislike of the state and practised diuers treasons and for the same being apprehended committed to prison died there Onely this thing is herein commendable that puritans papistes are very fitly ioyned together in this case Both deny the supremacie alike both depraue the gouernmēt-alike both rayle against our Communion booke alike and therefore that all may be alike both deserue to be vsed alike To the question I answere That the lawe accepteth not of persons but whether Th. Cartwright or Penrie or Bristowe or Allen
subiectes to reforme religion when princes will not yea rather then faile euen by force of armes 36 Quaere 2 Ibidem pag. 217. 234. 256 258. c. whether Iohn Knoxe and other his adherents grounding thēselues vpon the foresaid opinions cōcerning violent reformation did not by priuate motion without any authoritie put in practise a strange manner of reformation in Scotland and whether our disciplinarians doe not intend such a practise in England and if they doe whether they thinke that this course of theirs and these their rules of discipline will stand with Gods word or good orders 37 Quaere whether Beza was not the author or amplifier or publisher of the booke intituled De iure magistratuum in subditos a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all the authoritie of Christian kings and magistrates and whether the doctrine therein conteined be agreeable to the rules of that discipline which they haue so greatly vrged the same question is demaunded likewise of the booke called Vindiciae contra tyrannos a booke conteining no lesse pernicious matter against the authoritie of princes then the former 38 Quaere 3 Epist to Goodmans booke whether Master Whittingham that affirmed that the doctrine of Goodmans booke printed at Geneua in queene Maries time against the regiment of women and for exciting the subiectes to take armes against their soueraine princes in some cases was approoued to be good and godly by the chiefest men of learning that then were in the citie said therein either truely or Christianlike or schollerlike 39 Quaere whether the English disciplinarians that were at Geneua in Queene Maries time according to the said 1 Goodman pag. 73. 74. sequ and booke of Obedi pag. 99. 103. doctrine then there allowed of taught not that the nobilitie of England ought to reforme religion by force of armes and rather then faile to put the Queene then 2 Goodman pag. 99. 114. 115. sequen reigning to death and whether this point of doctrine be one of the principles of their new discipline and disciplinarian kingdome holden of most and professed of those that liue in free cities and states not subiect to kingly regiment 40 Quaere whether the said disciplinarian ministers and faction did not holde it lawfull according to the said 3 Goodman pag. 196. 87. 34. 35 185. 180 184. c. Geneuian doctrine That if the noble men and other inferiour Magistrates for feare should refuse to reforme religion as is mentioned the rest of the people might doe it in that case themselues and whether this be one of the axiomes of Th. Cartwrightes heauenly Canaan and a decision of their disciplinarian Synodes 41 Quaere whether the saide disciplinarians haue not taught publikely in bookes rather then there should be no reformation such as they wished that any priuate man hauing forsooth some extraordinarie motion or calling like that percase of Hacket might embrewe his handes with the blood of his 4 Goodman pag. 115. 199. 200. of obedience pag. 116. 110. souereigne according to the examples of Phinehes Ahud and such like 42 Quaere whether the reasons alledged by Knoxe and Wollocke against their gouerner and prince were sufficient in lawe for the subiectes to depose a prince 5 Histor of the Church of Scotland pag. 272. 278. or a regent lawfully appointed as they and others their followers did depose the Queene regent of Scotland and whether their allegations and doings are catholike rules of discipline for all times and all Churches 43 Quaere whether by the lawes of their new disciplinarian kingdome it be not as lawfull to depose a king from his seate and crowne for dealing in causes ecclesiasticall which they entend and affirme not to belong vnto him as it was for them of Geneua to depose their Bishop which was also their liege Lorde and prince from his temporall right and liuing for 1 Caluin to Sadolete dealing in causes temporall albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lorde and owner of that citie and territorie 45 Quaere whether the doctrine conteined in a 2 Declaration anno 1582. Declaration printed in Scotland why certeine persons mere subiectes repaired to the king at Ruthuen one reason of that forcible repaire being for that the king tooke vpon him to deale in causes ecclesiasticall be agreeable to the catholike doctrine of their discipline 46 Quaere whether the practises of certeine ministers in Scotland for the setting vp of their presbyteries by their owne authoritie as they are described in the actes of parliament helde there Anno 1584 and published in print are iustifiable by Gods word and to be helde for generall rules of discipline to be practised in all Churches 47 Quaere whether that be true that is reported in the Chronicles of Scotland which were perused and corrected by Master Randal Master Killigrew and Doctor Hammond concerning an other repaire made to the king of Scors at 3 Chronicle pag. 446 sequent Sterling and whether the proclamation there mentioned and the actions which then happened be agreeable to the doctrine of the disciplinarian kingdome taught euery where or els be but extraordinarie and locall and onely there to be put in practise where there is good opportunitie offered 48 Quaere whether in France other where they doe not contrary to their opinions for violent reformation of religigion by noble men by the people or priuate persons taught for 30. yeeres and vpwards teach now that it is vtterly vnlawfull for any subiect vnder any pretence of any extraordinarie calling so much as once to lift vp a hand against the prince be he tyrant idolator heretike or whatsoeuer and whether all the rest of the rules of this discipline may not as well be varied by time as this point is and what maner of disciplinarian faith this is that is so inconstant and variable and teacheth sometime obedience and sometime rebellion and like the Chamelion changeth haire so often 49 Quaere whether the wise authors of this petition doe not shew themselues to bee of the disciplinarian humour in this behalfe when they thinke it a sufficient answere in the behalfe of Beza Hotoman Buchanan and others that published the doctrine of stirring the subiectes against their princes to say they write so against popish kings and such as they iudged tyrants as if it were lawfull for subiectes to rebell against such as they account tyrants and popish kings and of T.C. let it be enquired whether he allowe this for one of his cananitish lawes of his celestial consistorie 50 Quaere whether 1 Conspiracy for discipline and examinations taken in the Starre Chamber published T. Cartw. and certaine ministers here his disciples haue not entred into the very same course for setting vp the discipline in England which you shal perceiue by the sayd declaration by the acts of parliamēt in Scotland Anno 1584 and by the English Chronicle that the ministers of Scotland
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the