his first onset was very vigorous D. T. answered at first to this purpose That Mr. P. might send for that Book which he owned to be his Bible and out of that he would dispute with him or if that were too great a trouble he would borrow an English Bible in the house which was afterwards fetch'd and discourse out of that and endeavour to vindicate the Translation where it should be by Mr. P. excepted against This Method Mr. P. would not allow but repeated his discourse about our not having a Bible and our not being able if we had one to prove we had one and ask'd again about the Rule of our Faith. D. T. before he answered to this applied himself to Mr. M. who seem'd to be the calmer person and of a temper inclining to Piety and put him in mind that such discourses as these and some others lately used by the Romanists about the Trinity and Transubstantiation would rather make the people Atheists or Unbelievers than Converts and that the indifferent were ready to say Content We cannot believe Transubstantiation and we will have no Trinity we cannot have the Bible unless we take it upon Roman Authority and none we will have Mr. M. said That would not be the consequence but gave no reason why he said so Then D. T. turned to Mr. P. and told him that he began at a point of which the Boy had not said a tittle to him in the Closet or to his Master the first and chief thing said by him being that about Luther's Works and Sacraments and his Colloquy with the Devil Mr. P. at first denied that he had shown such a Book to the Boy and the Boy began at first to shuffle about the Story but afterwards own'd it his Master attesting it and upbraiding him with lying in that and other things Mr. P. then salv'd the matter by saying he did not show him the Book in Publick D. T. then replied Is not a thing shown because it is not shown in a Market this is the fruit of the ill art of Equivocation Mr. P. proceeded to talk about Luther and the Devil and his leaving Mass at the Devils instance this discourse of Mr. P's had very good effect upon the other servants in the house as they confessed to their Mistress they now perceiving that to be the Jesuits talk which the Boy had fathered upon the Doctor To Mr. P's discourse about Luther D. T. answered on this manner That our Church depended not upon Luther but Christ That Luther some grains of allowance being given to him as we ought to every man was an excellent instrument of God's That he ought to have read if he had not done so the Book lately published at Oxford Entituled The Spirit of Martin Luther That if Luther had said any where there were Three Sacraments he had said no more than Paschasius Radbertus who was the Inventer of Transubstantâ—ation That admitting the Story Luther after the Monkish way had put his Spiritual Conflict into the form of a Colloquy and that he might well suspect a device in the Devil when he disswaded him from the Mass for the Devil might think the Piety of Luther would be apt to move him for that reason to go the rather to Mass because the Devil had forbidden him D. T. added that one of the first disswasives from the Mass which made impression upon Luther was this He had been at Rome and said Mass there and heard it said and he took notice of the profaneness of the Mass-Priests and he over-heard the very Courtizans jeeringly saying that some who Consecrated had used these Words Bread thou art Bread thou shalt be Wine thou art Wine thou shalt be Mr. P. asked D. T. where he had this Story D. T. answered where he might have it in Luthers Life D. T. would have gone on and given Mr. P. a Story out of their second Synod of Nice for his story about Luther's Colloquy with the Devil but Mr. P. would not accept of an old Tale for a new one and tho D. T. began his Story at the request of the people five or six times Mr. P. would not suffer him to proceed out-noising him in such manner that D. T. ask'd him if he had the Art of curing the deaf The Story which was afterwards told to the people in the back room was this Abbot Theodore reported before the Fathers of that Council which decreed the Worship of Images how the Devil appeared to an Old Man who asked him why he had troubled him so long with temptations to uncleanness the Devil swore him to secresie and then said Adore this Image no more I will give you no further trouble the Image was that of the Blessed Virgin with the Holy Jesus in her Arms The old man revealed this to Abbot Theodore who said he should not have sworn to the Devil yet notwithstanding 't was better for him not to dismiss his Courtezan than to forbear to worship Christ and his Mother in an Image The Abbot continued and comforted the old man and sent him away the Devil appeared again and upbraided him with perjury the old man answered What I have sworn I have sworn c. The Good Fathers excused the breach of his Oath and went on to applaud the practice of Image-worship Mr. P. not suffering D. T. scarce so much as to begin this story joined with Mr. Meredith in asking what was the Rule of Fairh and where we had our Bible And as to the latter Mr. P. ask'd with great quickness who gave us the Copies how where when and the like Insomuch that D. T. told him he was doing the office of a Catechist rather than a Disputer However D. T. answered thus First The Rule of Faith is the Holy Bible the sum of it in necessary Doctrines is the Apostolical Creed Mr. P. said we had other Negative Articles No Purgatory c. D. T. replied they were Guards of our Creed but not properly Articles and that as Protestations against Them they were not very Ancient because their Errors were not all from the beginning and that we could not pull up the weeds before they were grown up Secondly That if they had any good proof of the Bible we had it too and that the first external inducement for the receiving of the Bible as written by such and such persons and as such a Book was not so much the Authority as the Testimony of the Universal Church of all Ages all agreeing in it and amongst others the Roman excepting the Apochryphal Books of later time raised by them into a level with the primary Canon whilst we have the same Canon the Ancient Church owned in the Council of Laodicea D. T. added That the Protestants took in the Testimony of Heathens as of Julian the Apostate who against himself owned three of the Evangelists and the Jews who had once the Oracles of God committed to them and from whom the
U. and Mrs. U. declared by themselves and the rather upon their taking notice of certain Arts of Lying not so much before observed by them she own'd that the aforesaid Stories were us'd by a Roman as Arguments to turn her I believe there might be false Stories to the prejudice of Mr. P. and his Friends but to the end that false Reports may not on either hand prevail this Account is written by D. T. which Mr. P. wheresoever he thinks it is faulty may please to correct Tho. Tenison A Pursuit of that which was said in the Conference about the three first Quotations viz. out of S. Ambrose de Sacramentis S. Cyril of Hierusalem in his Catechism and Justin Martyr in his Apology c. 1. FOR the Book de Sacramentis as not genuine it may suffice at present to say That though there was a Book written by S. Ambrose under that Title this is not it there not being found in this the Places which S. Austin cited out of that That the style is plainly more moderen and rude than that of S. Ambrose and his Age That the version of the places of Scripture mention'd in this Book is not the same with that which S. Ambrose uses in his genuine Works That this Book is taken notice of by the Writers of the 8th and 9th Age the time of the introducing of the Corporeal Presence The very eminent Cardinal Bona whose credit is greater than that of Alexander Natalis do's own all this the last words excepted Haec Ambrosius si tamen ipse horum librorum qui de Sacramentis inscribuntur Auctor est Testatur quidem Augustinus scripsisse Ambrosium libros de Sacramentis sive de Philosophia adverfus l'latonem quorum meminit lib. 2. Retract cap. 4. doctrina Christiana lib. 2. cap. 28. eosque peâ—iit sibi mitti à S. Paulino Ep. 34. sed illi vel perierunt vel alicubi latent longè diversi sunt ab his qui nunc extant ut patet ex sententiis quas ex illis citat idem August lib. 2. primi operis adversus Julianum cap. 5. tribus sequentibus De his verò quos hodiè habemus fecit primò ut dubitarem styli diversitas cùm enim opera Ambrosii ante aliquot annos haud perfunctoriè percurrerem 〈◊〉 ad hoc pervent visus sum mihi alterius lingue hominem ab Ambrosio prorsus diversum loquentem audire Tum animadverti loca scripturae in his citata non esse ejus versionis quâ in aliis libris Ambrosius uti consuevit Quaedam etiam in his reperi quae seculo Ambrosii minùs convenire visa sunt Nihilominùs à Scriptoribus octavi nani seculi laudantur saepiùs tanquam Ambrosii legitimus foetus quorum auctoritati cedens eos deinceps sub ejus nomine cujus est possessio semper cit abo It is true he says at the end of his Discourse that notwithstanding his Reasons before alledged he yields to the Authority of the Writers of the 8th and 9th Age and that seeing they are in possession he will henceforth cite this Book under the name of S. Ambrose But considering the Time and the Doctrine then preparing for the papal stamp who wants the fagacity of understanding to what purpose this Book was forg'd and then brought forth as out of its antient mouldiness And for the humility of the Cardinal's deference to such late Authority against his solid reasons and judgment all know what that means in the Roman Communion where Writers after knowing that they have said things against the genius of that Church do in the end submit all at her feet So did Des-Cartes whose principles are utterly inconsistent with Transubstantiation So did Molinos the Father of the numberless off-spring of the present Quietists For this is the Conclusion of his first amply licensed and then rigidly condemned Guida spirituale Il tutto sottoponga humilimente prostrato alla Correttione della Santa Chiesa Catolica Romana After all this I do allow that Mr. P. was the less to be blamed in this Quotation considered as a Romanist because he cited it out of his Breviary and believ'd as his Church believed Of this spurious S. Ambrose and of the doctrine of the Eucharist in the true S. Ambrose I will say more when more is required I will add only at this time these two things First The Author cited out of the Breviary suppose him S. Ambrose is inconsistent with himself if Transubstantiation be an Article of his Faith. For he saith in another place non iste panis est qui vadit in Corpus sed ille panis vitae aeternae qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulcit That is it is not that Bread which goes into the Body but the Bread of Life eternal which sustains the substance of the Soul. Now what a Judge has Mr. P. chosen toward the deciding of a Controversie in which he is not reconcil'd to himself Secondly This Author in all probability has been further tamper'd with for he would scarce have said that in the Breviary seeing he own'd the Canon of the Mass in his time to run otherwise than now it does in the Roman Missal and to assert that the Elements were the Figure of Christ's Body Sècondly For the Testimony of S. Cyril it was not that cited thus in the Speculum S. Cyril Alexandrinus c. For Mr. P. spake of S. Cyril of Jerusalem and tho' he did not produce the words yet he said they were those in his fourth Mystagogical Catechism I say now as I then did That the place was long ago fully answered The place of S. Cyril is by a Romanist M. W. thus rendered Tho' you see it to be Bread yet believe it is the Flesh and the Blood of the Lord Jesus Doubt it not since he had said This is my Body And for a proof instances Christ's changing Water into Wine The Answer is this and it is a true one We acknowledge that the words of S. Cyril of Jerusalem were truly cited but for clearing of them we shall neither alledge any thing to the lessening the Authority of that Father tho' we find but a slender Character given of him by Epiphanius and others Nor shall we say any thing to lessen the Authority of these Catechisms tho' much might be said But it is plain S. Cyril's design in these Catechisms was only to possess his Neophytes with a just and deep sense of these holy Symbols But even in his fourth Catechism he bids them not to consider it as meer Bread and Wine for it is the Body and Blood of Christ. By which it appears he thought it was Bread still tho' not meer Bread. And he gives elsewhere a very formal account in what sense he thought it Christ's Body and Blood which he also insinuates in his Fourth Catechism for in his first Mystical Catechism when he exhorts his young Christians to avoid
Pulton on this manner Sir I was inform'd that on Sunday last in the Afternoon after you had finished your Exposition on some Point in the Catechism you spake to the Company in the Chappel to this Effect I believe you have heard of a late Conference in which I was concern'd It is not the way of Catholicks to make a great noise of such Matters but if the Protestants make a stir about it then next Sunday in this place I will give you an Account of that which pass'd in that Conference Mr. Pulton and the other Jesuit own'd that he had said this and that he was not Misrepresented upon which Dr. Tenison told him that he had opened the Scene and that if he himself had done so at St. Martins it was his Opinion he should not have observ'd the Rules of Peace and Decency Mr. Pulton answered He had neither named Dr. Tenison in his Chappel nor elsewhere spoken ill of him and that he was moved to this by the Dirt that was cast upon him by Papers and Words in Coffee-houses Dr. Tenison assured him That he was not the Author of such Papers or Words and that he himself had had his share of Slanderous Words from some of his Party and he gave him a remarkable Instance of that Nature which is in Dr. Tenison's Account above Repeated After which Dr. Tenison said that he came to make a double Proposal to him either to give one another Liberty to use such Discourse and to Publish such Papers in all Companies and Places as should seem meet to each of them or else to proceed as was agreed upon at the end of the Conference That is to say First That Dr. Tenison should send in Writing to Mr. Pulton what he judged fit of that which had passed and of that which he had undertaken in a Paper which he sign'd relating to Mr. Pulton's First Quotation out of St. Ambrose as also of that which he said in Reference to Mr. Pulton's Second Quotation out of the Catechism of St. Cyril of Jerusalem and his Third Read by the same Mr. Pulton out of a Printed Paper and cited as Justin Martyr's Then that Mr. Pulton should send to Dr. Tenison his Answer in Writing After which they might proceed to more Quotations and further Replies Here Mr. Pulton stuck a while and show'd a little Heat which his Friend soon temper'd Mr. Pulton would have confined Dr. Tenison to that which he call'd his Main Point and complain'd further that Dr. Tenison would not hear out all his Quotations though there was not time for all there being others in a Paper Book besides that in his Breviary and those in his Printed Sheets and to allude to them as call'd the Soldiers Paper to hear all read over before the answering of One seemed to Dr. Tenison as absurd as not to permit a Soldier to answer to his Name till all the Muster-Roll is call'd over Further Dr. Tenison was for setting forth the Matter at length and desir'd not to be confin'd to Mr. Poulton's new Method leaving him to the liberty of making such Objections as he judged fit in the Case Mr. Pulton's Friend perswaded him to go on thus and at last Mr. Pulton yielded to it Here Dr. Clegat interpos'd and said That Dr. Tenison had taken a good Course to prevent false Reports by coming to him to adjust the Method betwixt themselves and that it had been better if Mr. Pulton had done the like before he had spoken of the Matter in his Chappel in the Savoy and that Dr. Tinison had by his Proposition show'd that his Intentions were fair Then some Discourse was had about St. Ambrose de Sacramentis another Place in the true St. Ambrose and Alexander Natalis's Arguments about the former Book Dr. Clegat said That his Arguments had need be good for he knew that Writer too well to take any thing upon his meer Authority Then Dr. Clegat being to go into the Country was desirous to take leave but before that was done Dr. Tenison intreated Mr. Pulton to give him such Printed Sheets as he had used at the Conference Mr. Pulton said he knew not where they were and went into his Study to look for them but came again and said he could not find them Then Dr. Tenison ask'd him what Title they had he said he had forgot It seem'd strange that he should forget the Title of a Writing out of which he had Disputed though 't is plain he was not perfectly Vers'd in it for there he might have found Pope Innocent the Third about whom he was at a loss The Truth is the Title was such that it was not worth the remembring though it was so Remarkable that a Man could scarce forget it viz. Speculum Eccelesiasticum rendred an Ecclesiastical Prospective-glass instead of Looking-glass But as Phantastical as it was and as falsly render'd they found it Pasted up in the Entrance to the Savoy Chappel and there left it Mr. Pulton being with them and having told them that the Woman that sold those Sheets who was then out of the way or else N. T. would furnish them with this Piece So they took leave Civilly one of another after Mr. Pulton had Courteously invited Dr. Clegat and Dr. Tenison to taste of their Beer and they being in haste had with Thanks excused themselves This is a Faithful Relation of what passed at the Savoy whilst I was there with Dr. Tenison Mr. Pulton and another Jesuit Octob. 3d. William Clegat Dr. Tenison afterwards looking into these Sheets was amaz'd that Mr. Pulton should be so earnest to read further Quotations from them for there he found a great many Books plainly spurious besides that De Sacramentis under St. Ambrose's Name cited as genuine of this Number are these The Third Epistle of St. Anacletus Canon 39. Arab. of the First Council of Nice St. Cyril of Hierusalem l. 3. in Apol. contra Ruffin c. 4. If there be such a Book in the World ascrib'd to St. Cyril by any one before I suppose he has Confounded St. Cyril with St. Hierom in the Second Tome of whose Works is such a Book as Apologiae adversus Ruffinum libri tres But enough of this Magical-glass which shows us St. Cyril in another Man's Figure and sets before our Eyes Pope Leo presiding in the Council of Chalcedon and Pope Vigilius presiding in the Second Council of Constantinople with other such Sights which the Learned World ne'er saw before On Octob. 9th being the Lords Day Mr. Pulton in the Mass-house at the Savoy spake thus to the People I know it is expected I should now speak of a late Conference I had but the Dr. having since then been with me to acquaint me he had not taken any Measures about speaking thereof in the Pulpit desir'd therefore that I would not to which I promis'd him so for your Information of what passed there you are to expect it from Methods which may be concluded on
well as that of Dr. T 's may be the better known I have here inserted part of a Letter sent to Dr. T. from that Reverend Person Octob. the 13th 87. Reverend Sir VVHEN the Boy came to me with his Master I looked upon him and methought I saw Stubbornness Ill-nature and Sullenness in his Face I asked him several Questions but had much ado to get an Answer from him To me he seem'd to intimate that he was already gone over to them Something I dropt accidentally about Succession which he laid hold of and with a kind of scornful Smile demanded what Succession we could shew I told him both for Men and Doctrine and proved it to him But after that he gave me little or no Answer to any thing I asked him I made him promise me to consider of what I had said and to come to me again which after some Demurr he did but never came I suppose you have an Account of the Sermon that was preach'd at the Mass-House in the Savoy on Sunday last c. The Publication of the Conference will be absolutely necessary I was at Black-Friars yesterday and heard that a Man having heard that the Victory went on the Papists side was turn'd Papist upon it This I had from the Man's Neighbour who ask'd me about that Conference but I rectified his Mistake I am SIR Yours to command A. Horneck Note Dr. H. was not consulted till Octob. 13. which confirms sully both what Mr. U. had said of J. S. and Dr. T. had observed of him These Numbers relate to Mr. P 's Paragraphs 4. He makes Dr. T. to say that Luther's Works were not in Quarto but in Fotio instead of saying in four or in six Folio's which small things I would not note if they did not show that a Thread of Mistake sometimes wilful and sometimes not does run through his whole Narrative He goes on saying that he had not brought the Book into the Pulpit we never talk'd of it but as shown privately in his Chamber and by this way of excusing his Aequivocation he exposes it 10. He says Dr. T. appeal'd to the Greeks and Bohemians But certainly to say as Dr. T. did that there were amongst them Christians professing the Faith of the Apostles Creed and disclaiming the Errors of Rome before Luther rose is not appealing to them 12. What Mr. P. says of Dr. T 's boast of having ten thousand Pounds worth of Books if his Amanuensis has not mistaken in the figuring will not be easily credited 13. Mr. P. would not have said what he does of St. Peter's 25 years if he had not mistaken Dr. T. who never deny'd that St. Peter was ever at Rome but spake of the 25 Years before he came thither not out of Eusebius's Cronicon as Mr. P. imagin'd tho in that Book the 25 in the Latin is not in the Greek and Eusebius elsewhere contradicts that Computation but out of a passage in Lactantius which perhaps being formerly run away with without due attention to its meaning might occasion that Blunder in Chronology if Pope Damasus had not a Finger in that Corruption 14. He speaks of Dr. T 's being judg'd by the four first Centuries which is not the whole Truth he lik'd them best but would not be judg'd by them for he took in Universal Testimony separate from Authority 15. Mr. P. affirms That he had read all Ecclesiastical History and had Volumes of Notes relating to it Much good may his common-place-Common-place-Book do him if it be taken out of some such Authors as are cited in his Speculum Anacletus's Epistle St. Cyprian de caenâ Domini St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Apology against Ruffinus who flourished not till about Anno 390. Whilst St. Cyril flourish'd Anno 350. he may call his Notes Collections but they are properly Weedings 15. He puts upon Dr. T. a false thing of denying that any Bishops came from England to the Council of Lateran Dr. T. is positive upon Inquiry that this is a false and unfair way of Apologizing for his own Mistake by inventing one for him who charg'd him with it Dr. T. only ask'd a few Questions about that Council and set Father Walsh against Father Pulton shewing how far they were from Unity about what was and what was not a General Council Mr. Pulton's Guide tho not every Jesuite's Dr. T. well knew that most of the Roman Communion have insisted on that Council as General tho it be not so And he well remembers he told Mr. P. he would upon occasion hold him to it seeing that Council teaches the Deposing Doctrine which Doctrine notwithstanding Mr. P. disclaimed at his going forth out of the second Room 16 17. He is much concern'd at Dr. T 's insisting on one place in St. Ambrose Dr. T. insisted upon that for a reason Mr. P. might know but was not aware of and it was this That Passage out of St. Ambrose had been by a certain Priest translated into English and given to a Person of Honour in order to Conversion and this Paper has been long tho in private manner carried about the Town as likewise some disjointed Passages transcribed from Dr. Taylour about the Real Presence which taken by themselves do give a most abusive Representation of that Doctor 's Sense This Place being then the Engine of Converters it was fit to be expos'd If Mr. P. pleases I will name Persons and Places to him 17. Observe here the Fidelity either of Mr. P's Memory or his Conscience He savs the Doctor told a Story of some Priest at Rome who having pronounced the Words of Consecration was heard to say aloud that he believ'd not as the Roman Church oblig'd Whereas the Story as before repeated was about the Courtesans over-hearing the Priests say Bread thou art and Bread thou shalt be 18. Mr. P. leaving out what was answered to the place in J. Martyr says the Doctor would not declare what he believed in the Point of the Real Presence and yet Dr. T. repeated the Words of the Catechism and said he would abide by the true Sense of them 18. He talks of knocking the Pulpit which words he never nam'd there What Priests act most there is known enough to the World. 19. Dr. T. is said to have asked Mr. P. what Verse it was wherein it was written If he hear not the Church Whereas he appeals to all the Company if he did not ask him in what Evangelist it was and he could not tell and instead of that Mr. P. says of himself that he did not tell He had said more than was fit upon other occasions why was he not in humour to say what was fit here He adds Dr. T. turning from place to place found it Whereas he named the Chapter and Verse before he began to turn and the reason of his turning was manifest for he could not read the Print by the Light they had till he was forc'd to pull out his Spectacles These