decreuit à temporibus Apostolorum vsque ad praesens vel vsque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapieÌtium atque docentium ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae tom 1. doctrina 2. certifie âhich bookes are scripture and that ââe can commend none in this naââre but such as were written in ââe Apostles e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebaÌt Ecclesijs ducere scripturaruÌ volumina ad perfectum tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritateÌ sacri canonis nisi qui de illis teÌporibus Apostolicis agereÌt tunc temporis essent quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem summam Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà daies but this is ât to denie the present Church or Councell power to propose againe the same There were notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diuers parts of the new testameÌt which approbation came not at least so manifestlie to the notice of all some who doubted of f Vide Disp pa. 431 or denied them as for example the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle and the later oâ S. Peter yet you your selues doe and Waldensis did receaue them aâ the hands of the Church by thaâ part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that hâ denied a Councell power to propose bookes in the manner wee noâ speake of but he saies onelie thaâ he seemes to be of those who denie thâ power to define which booke is Canonicall to belonge chieflie to a generâ Councell It is one thing to saie thâ a Councell can doe it another tâ saie the power belongs chieflie ãâã the Councell as you will perceaâ by the declaration of the next placâ obiected Waldensis as Canus worâ import seemed to denie not the foâmer but the later neither doth ãâã saie that he denied it but that ãâã did seeme to doe so some things thâ âhilosophers vse to saie do seeme ãâã be and are not and some thing âemes to one otherwise many tiâes then to an other Had it been so âdeed I make no question but that âou who haue been diligent in your âinde to seeke in him what might âe brought against vs would not âaue omitted to relate the words When you seeke for them next âou will finde in him first as I said âefore that in his exclusiue he speaâes of bookes not written in the Aâostles time or before to which purâose he g Waldens li. 2. fid doc c. 20. brings the place of scriâture Dominus narrabit in scripturis âopulorum principum horum qui âuerunt in ea with S. Ieroms Comment on it wherein are these words vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud âosteà dicitur abscindatur non habeat âosteà authoritatem And to the same âenour he himselfe a litle after let vs âote the differences of Scripture because the scripture or writing onlie of âhe Princes that is of the Apostles hath after our lord the crowne of authoritie I meane of canonicall authoritie for the saying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie bâ not canonicall Secondlie whereas ãâã might be obiected that the Churcâ in a generall Councell might wriâ a booke and put it into the canon ãâã scripture to be among other bookâ of holie writt since S. Gregorie thâ great doth professe to honour theâ as the Gospels in those words h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti epist 24. citatur in Decret d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot Ibidem Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros ãâã quatuor concilia suscipere veneraâme fateor Waldensis there answere to this argument and expounds thâ words of S. Gregorie Thirdlie because it might againe be obiecteâ out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken that i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de librâs recipiendis non recipâeÌdâs vbi scripturaruÌ libros in authoritate pleâârâa quomodo sint habendi denunciat noÌ ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat walden vbi supra Pelagius the Pope seemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon and what not he answers with a distinction which doth explaine his minde and dotâ suffice to stopp your mouth wheâ occasion require Scripturarum libâ saith he in authoritate plenaria quâ modo sunt habendi denunciat non ãâã authoritatem per scipsum instaurâ That is in briefe he doth not giue but declare their sacred and diuinâ âthoritie And the same the Church ãâã all times might and may doe âhensoeuer there shall be cause âhey were by the holy Ghost inâred and written by the Apostles âd Princes of the Church qui fueât in ea and were approued by them ãâã but it hath beene since necessaâ to declare some of them to giue âtimonie that they be diuine and âs testimonie the Church still can âe Neither is our Sauiour offenâd with her testimonie giuen to ãâã word who was pleased that she âould giue testimonie of himâfe Of which matter this author âth much in the former Chapters âeciallie the eighteenth Fourthlie ãâã doth esteeme the iudgment of ãâã Pope and of a perfect Councell âe infallible as you will heare beâe wee leaue him and therefore âch more is he to be esteemed to âeld this honour to the whole wheâ they be All which being conâered that which you did vrge out ãâã Canus so appeares that it is but a âere videtur without an est vnâ it HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit ipsa sc professio concors sanctorum Patrâ secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testiânium Christi verbis consuetudini primitiue Baro p. 3â ex wald to 3. de Sacramentalibus doct 3. 3. THirdlie it is inferred that ãâã takes infallibilitie froÌ Couâcells and from the present Churcâ because he saith that the vnanimâ profession of the holie Fathers giuâ testimonie according to the distanceâ their times to the * Latiùs patet verbum quà m scriptura words of Christ ãâã the primitiue custome is the oââ Christian engine which hath once ââlished all Heresies Wherevnto I aâswere first that he speakes withâ exclusion of the Church presentâ each heresie for it is well knowâ that the Church which did aboââ Arianisme and Nestorianisme ãâã the rest of the heresies before ãâã times was that Church whâ knewe of them and that she diâ by her Pastors and for the most pâ in Councells though not without ãâã censent of that part of the Chuâââ and those her Pastors which liââ in the precedent ages which oâ ãâã or agreeable profession was ând partlie by their bookes as in ãâã acts of the Councells appeares âhis daie and partlie by the tradiâ of the particular Churches wheâ they had liued and died Which âânner the Church doth still obserâ in condemning heresies as they
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌtent to âhink the authoritie of those ââo or three though the ââst contradict sufficient to âake is probable and then iudâng of the reasons and motiâes which they bring as his ââfections incline him he thinks ãâã at last certaine So did the ârians depending vpon the âuthoritie first of their leaâers and then deeming their âotiue as that pater maior me ãâã to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiââout pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌt quod non etiam Scripturae verbâs adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌpiam Haereââcorum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures ââd gleane obscure speaches ât of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this âay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ the same sillie motiue if thâ whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ contrarie he will not beleeââ the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌgst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest âchollers haue euer stooped to ãâã yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌt as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌtrouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
admitted in some others ât in a scholler that pretends to haâ reade the Question in him and ââth vrge his authoritie against the âhurch of God such a pretence âth no place §. III. Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie will haue vs depend âon the Church for the sence of it 2. She is âo to declare which bookes are Canonicall âripture A speach of Canus touching Walâsis his Opinion examined 3. When he saith ãâã Fathers testimonie hath abolished all Heââes he doth not exclude the Authoritie of ãâã Church symbolicall or representatiue 4 âe symbolicall Church he saith against Wiâef is not the Predestinated people only but ãâã Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree HAecipsa fides authoritas Ecclesiae quantum homiââ supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis ââthoritati succumbit Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est ãâã inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae infimam ratioâ fides Ecclesiae Scripturas venerabiliter attollens exhibeus rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authoritaâ alligans zona Pauli Idem ex eodem 1. WALDENSIS saith the authoââtie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture What this will you inferre that wee thârefore neede not obaie the decrââ of Councells or that the Chââches authoritie is fallible Infallibââtie may be in others besides Scââpture The Apostles were not Scââpture yet were they infallible ânesses of the trueth The Churcâ the pillar and ground of trueth thoâ the Church be not Scripture 1. Timoth. 3. Thâ may be diuers Authorities infallâ and one of them Subordinate to ãâã other And so are these two accââding to this Author as you may âby the places represented in the a Quamuis fides vniuersalis Ecclesiae inuenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota non tamen est eiân authoritate par sed subijcitur Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum quod non licet de ipsa dubitare eo quod testimoniuÌ Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectuÌ fidei Christianae legis latio scripturae canonicae Subijcitur tamen ipsi sicut testis iudici testimonium veritati sicut praeconâzatio definitioni sicut praeco regi Ibâdem Quod aliquis pater vnus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo saltem colore tuo decredere quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus homo loquuntur fidei robur habet quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis Idem c. 25. margine One onely I will putt here because it serues also for that which followes In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed there where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church and amongst other things to this purpose hath these words Before the written Gospell this in the heart of the Church was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote and which the Apostles wrote in the harts of men and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand in the controuersies whether the text of the written Gospell be vnderstood or taken by the faithfull or subuerted by the Heretick whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians saying âow are our Epistle written in your hearts which is knowne and read of all men declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs and written not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart And a litle after Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts be most certaine yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum a most certaine interpretation in the hearts of the faithfull succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times foreuer according to that of the Prophet this is the testament which I will make to them giuing my lawes in their hearts and in their sense or minde I will write them I must not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he saith b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae eius authoritas quantum hominum supergreditur rationem tantum fateor diuinâ legis authoritati succumbit sed tamen quaâ minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Waâd to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae semper credenda est si quandoqââ fallere consueta in omnibus est suspecta Ibidem the diuine law were vnto the faithfull * Non licet de ipsa dubitare c. vide in Addit of lesse authoritie if the Church did not preferre it And c Hoc est quod superius dixi quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae ipsa tamen taxabeâ se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa dicit Origenes Ibidââ howmuch soeuer the diuinâ scripture is higher then the decree of âhe Church ipsa tamen sensum eius âaxabit she notwithstanding shall deâne the sense wherein thou maiest not âold otherwise and whose interpretaââon to resist is as Origen speakes a âapitall offence So he AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo aniâo paterer ab haereticis non admitti sed illud tamen doleo veheâenter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur in quibus Thoâas Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc fid c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex âno Addit Baro c. 20. 21. SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now ââesent power to determine which ââe bookes of scripture And for this ââe cited three Chapters of his 2. ââoke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. âut there I finde it not He doth inâed hold that the Catholick Churh ââd no other is able to d Et hoc est secundum dictuÌ gloriosum de Ecclesia quod sc ipsa sola est cuius testimoniuÌ est tantae authoritatis praeconij vt ipsos libros diuinarum scripturaruÌ taxare decoruÌ authoribus certificare possit fideles nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire wald li. 2. doct fid c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes ab Apostolis propagata testimoniuÌ certum reddit Ibidem Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credeÌdam sub poena contumaciae Ea dico quae praesens est quae iudicia directa
âse ioyning her present Authoriâ to that of the precedent ages ââose minde she doth enquire in ââe manner that so by consent of ãâã whole still errours be condemâd Neither is it necessarie to finde âat which she doth at anie time âopose vniuersallie professed by all âfore in plaine termes and expliciâ or to finde it in all bookes of thoâ times the Church informer ages âd not so wee take the same course âat she then did Secondlie you must âtend vnto the words cunctas aboleâe hath abolished all No one Counâll no one part as that which liued ãâã the second age or that which liâed in the third or fourth hath aboâhed and destroyed them all but ââe whole hath done it Thirdlie that âla is not * If sola be taken as you would haue it what will become of your triall by scripture onlie captiouslie to be stood vpon least you wrong the same Aâthor who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whose testimonâ k so 3. doc 3. tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20 c. he pleades so earnestlie both iâ the same place and in his seconâ booke Doct. Fid. in many chapterâ prouing it it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede yââ the Fathers of whose consent ãâã speakes in the place by you heeâ vrged be not the symbolicaââ Church properlie but onlie a parâ of it And in like manner wheâ speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit d. authoritie thaâ she can certifie who are authors oâ the bookes of scripture that soâ doth not exclude another authoritie that is within for example thâ vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to c. 26. and m Apudomnes Catholicos valet ligat vna sententia concors patruÌ maximè autem temporis longaeuâ patrum successione sirmata ita vt locuÌ fidei habeat De quacre âenda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas omnes tractatus definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patruÌ sententia ab ipsis ApostoloruÌ sedibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum id est ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo noua vetera li. 2. c. 25. els where but it excludes authoritie Without Fourthlie he doth noâ exclude generall Councells by thâ Christian world approued and hâ ât should in Sainct Augustines âes haue refused to subscribe to âh authoritie or disputed against ât which the vniuersall Church âhat age beleeued and tought he ât would not haue beleeued what âs by so great authoritie proposed âd bene thought madde rather then ârthie the name of man Fiftlie âher doth he exclude from infalâlitie and power to abolish heâes the Gospels and other parts scripture and yet these be not ât instrument or engine which he âakes of so that you cannot build ãâã argument on those words to âe infallibilitie awaie from all but ãâã Fathers Sixtlie notwithstanâg that Councells and the present âurch are infallible it may be said âthe consent of the Fathers or âhe whole symbolicall Church âh abolish all heresie because faith âre readilie giues assent vnto that âch is so vniuersallie proposed âderstandings not so well dispoâ before doe quicklie stoope in ãâã case to giue reuerence to the âh and such as doe not are condemned of all and so confoundâ that they dare no more openlie pâfesse their errour whence it coâ to passe that none making esteâ either of the doctrine or of thâ who stubbornlie doe persist in it degrees it is abolished And this one of those glorious prerogatiâ which Waldensis so much coÌmeâ in the Church Besides the foresâ readines in the vnderstanding whâ it is by grace well disposed or ãâã lesse repugnance to render obedieâ when it cannot with any shew pâtend reason for the refusall there dâ appeare too more fullie in tâ proponent the power of vniâ which is in it selfe a dispositioâ more plentifull participation of ãâã spirit and brings with it greaâ force to conquer opposition Vndâstandings well disposed yeild pâsentlie when the Councell speakâ when the present Church hath âceaued and vniuersallie approâ the Councell there is ex parte sâcti more adhesion and yet mâ when the consent of all former aâ is added and vnited and more ãâã there was in those that had Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti as the âchoolemen speake euidentiam in âttestante S. Marke knew the Gosâell which he wrote to be true yet âhat the faithfull more easilie might âeleeue it he had it n Vide to 1. doct 3. to 3. li. 2. c. 20. S. Hieron Catol script in Marco approued âs S. Hierom doth relate by S. Peâer S. Paul knew the truth in the âuestion moued at Antioch about âircumcision yet to make the creâibilitie more appeare and more conâincing he went with it to the CouÌâell at Hierusalem where it was o Act. 15. âefined And the Pastors there knewe too what was the truth yet âor the greater weight of Authoriâie they added testimonies of Scriâture The scripture many times ârings testimonies of scripture for confirmation as this Author showeth excellentlie to 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in conâirmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets When parts âre vnited Bishops in Councell particular Churches in the vniuersall whole ages in the Symbolicall âater with most Auncient all vnder âone eternall Word becomming one speaker and vttering in the language of all Nations as it were with one mouth in one spirit one and thâ same thing no man that perceaueâ it morallie can dissent This proponent hath a commaunding poweâ ouer a wise mans vnderstanding anâ it is a great engine to confound errour in which great engine he thaâ should denie there were many paâticular engines able to confounâ Heresie wronges diuers particulaâ in the companie vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem non qâdem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties errâ percepimus c. Baro p. 366. ex wald to 1. li. 2. c. 19. 4. FOurthlie to the same purposeâ of remouing infallibilitie froâ the present Church and Councellâ he is cited out of another place speaking thus The vniuersall Churââ hath faith which cannot faile not indeed assembled in a generall synâ which wee haue vnderstoode to haâ failed sometimes c. In which citaân abruptlie broken of for aduanâge the Authors speach is
potest The Church because it relyeth not on reason but on the diuine authoritie prouidence and assistance and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her can in no sort or manner nullo modo determine besides the truth or erroneouslie or against God Whence it followes as before that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke auouching and publikelie declaring it to be scripture or to any proposiâion determining it to be a point of âaith and proposing it vnto the world for such there can be accorâing to this author no further queâtion made of it since the diuine ârouidence doth so guide her that ân such definitions she in no sort âan iudge erroneouslie or determine âesides the truth â Neither is this integritie in deâânition violated or our sauiours promise of assistance broken if not in matter of diuine beleefe such as âor the good of his Church God âath reuealed but in i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse praeâer fidem arbitratur Celestius quà m sunt illae in quibus âlua fide qua Christiani sumus aut ignoratur quid verum ãâã sententia definitiua suspenditur aut aliter quam est âumana infirma suspicione conijcitur Velâââ cum quaeââtur qualis vel vbi sit Paradâsus cum tamen esse illum âaradisum fides Christiana non dubitet Vel cum quaeriâr vbi nunc sit Elias c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in corâore vel extra corpus in terâium caelum sit raptus Apoâolus c. vel quot sunt Caeli c. vel vtrum elementa âundi huius conspicabilis quatuor an plura sint c. vbi âotuit Methusalem viuere c. Quis non sentiat in his atâe huiusmodi varijs innumerabilibus quaestionibus sine ad âbscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissiâas latebras pertinentibus quas certo aliquo generâ complecti ac definire difficile est multa ignorari salua Christiana fide alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine S. Aug. li. 2. cont Pelag. Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer as where is Elias where Paradice how many heauens c. not in definition and attestation but in some particular * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles and another thing to argue out of others Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere deduction and coniecture she doth inferre amisse Not euerie consequence orillation not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises in matter of that nature hath infallibilitie according to this Author but the definitions and decrees all haue it If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other you may reade him or Canus or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells where you may with litle studie discerne it If it be replied that in his fourth Controuersie he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance to points onlie fundamentall excluding all other I answer that euen k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data taÌtummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis fideli populo ceâta veritate tradeÌdis locum habet quae vel in coÌtrouersiam vocantur vel alioqui ad publicaÌ Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent Staplet fid doc li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertineÌt c. vel non ad publicum aliquod commune dogma explicandum quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur populus autem implicitè in maiorum fide sed ad priuatam alicuius c. Ibidem there he doth extend it to all points of faith which either are called into controuersie at any time wherein the Church is or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church In which compasse is contained all that is in the Councell of Trent defined against you or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed to be beleeued Your masters Luther Caluin and others called into question diuers things appertaining and intrinsecallie as parts to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion as bookes of holie scripture iustification Sacraments and the Masse And therefore if according to Stapleton the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vnââ all points of faith called into question it is according to the same tenet extended vnto these which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith But in questions that are impertineÌt or * Such as some aboue pag. 97. litter i. in marg indifferent or that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one that is weake in iudgment and in some priuate case or to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie to conclude in questions that appertaine to the explicatioÌ of those things which are appendices additions rather then contained in or appertaining to the substance of faith if the Church should mistake it were not he thinks any preiudice to the graunt of assistance or the promised infallibilitie not if in matter of this nature she should affirme or discoursing as a Diuine which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth should inferre and logicallie l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo Ibidem conclude amisse But to make a publike decree of that which is false and propose it openlie to be beleeued of Christians as matter of faith that she cannot being in her publike decrees ãâã definition infallible as you heard him saie before And the same he hath proued at large both by Scripture and Theologicall reasons in diuers m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont 3. q 4 cont 4. q. 2. alibi places of his booke §. IX 1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie 2. Other witnesses or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture and not recommended by it or by the author of it wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings in authoritie His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike and consequentlie of her Councells too and admitting Scripture he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells esteeming them to be in their decrees of faith infallible What mending that is which he speakes of EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam caâonici appellantur didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere
canonicis aliquando fuerint coÌparata aut possunt etiam ipsi de Scripturis sanctis proferre CoÌcilium vbi Apostoli iudices sederint accusatum aliquem damnauerint vel absoluerint Et tamen respondebimus eis etiam Prophetas libros praenotatis definitis commendasse temporibus quo anno cuius regis c. S. Aug. li. cont Donatist post Collat. c. 15. Requiring of the Catholikes to shewe any where out of Scripture where the daies and consuls were registred and enrolled Wherevnto S. Augustine answers that Councells are not parallelled with Scripture the one to wit the Councell may doe well in registring both daies and Consuls though the other doe not so or they may be added and not by the authoritie of the Councell though nothing be registred in the Scripture but by the direction of the holie Ghost The acts of Councells are not equalized in exactnes and extent of infallibilitie to the books written by Gods Secretaries wee giue the prerogatiue to the Scriptures and so do the words obiected out of S. Augustine which are cited in the margine In the same place whence they were taken he tels how the Catholikes did forbeare to examine why in one Councell the daie was noted and in the other not quia illi Donatistae vanas moras volebant innectere and all heretikes are of the same condition they hinder with impertinent Cauills the processe of the Catholikes argumeÌts and catch at all occasions to trifle out the time For the same cause disputing in another place with an Arian he did forbeare to vrge against him the authoritie of the Councell of Nice against which the heretick tooke exceptions opposing the Ariminian Councell The examen of which two points thereby called into controuersie I meane the lawfulnes of the one and the vnlawfullnes of the other would haue taken vp the time and transferd the dispute into another question which heretikes greedilie desire when they cannot answer but S. Augustine would not permit that scope to his aduersarie and therefore hauing mentioned the two foresaid Councells and in honour of the one which had defined the thing he was disputing of said it p S. Aug li. 3. contra Max. c. 14. was there veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate firmatum established by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie and contrariwise of the other that there were multi paucorum fraude decepti many deceaued by the fraude or circumuention of a fewe whereby hereticall impietie endeuoured to weaken what the Catholike fathers in the power of truth and authoritie had established Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Scripturarum authoritatibus noÌ quorumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus c Baro p. 337. ex Aug. hauing I saie mentioned these two Councells he forbeares to vrge his argument out of the authoritie of the Nicene Councell and makes it out of that authoritie which his aduersarie did admit thereby the sooner to conclude being so to dispute onlie about the meaning of the words he was to bring and needing not to argue for his authoritie whose words they were But now for both of vs be content with this course neither doe I the Nicene neither oughtest thou as by way of preiudice produce the Ariminian Councell neither am I held in with the authoritie of this the Ariminian nor thou of that the Nicene thou doest assume to thy selfe the libertie not to obaie it and out * Infrà in fi huius relectionis ad sextum of thy malice art not held in with that great authoritie though thou and all others ought to be since q Hoc est illud homousion quod in Concilio Nicaeno aduersus haereticos Arianos à Catholicis Patribus Veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate firmatum est quod postea in Concilio Ariminensi propter nouitatem in verbis minus quam oportuit intellectum quam tamen fides antiqua peperaâ multis paucorum fraude deceptis haeretica impietas sub haeretico Imperatore Constantio labefactare tentauit Sed post non longum tempus libertate Catholicae fidei praeualente c. S. Aug. li 3. contra Maxim c. 14. Sed nunc nec ego c. vt supra in marg Ibidem the authoritie of truth it selfe which cannot lie doth there establish the thing which wee dispute of See what S. Athanasius hath testified of the authoritie of that Councell to conuince Heretiks Efficax ad omnem impietatem euertendam c. infrà in Addition ad Athan. PEtit Augustinus à Donatistis vt Ecclesiam suam demonstrent Non in sermonibus rumoribus Afrorum non in Concilijs Episcoporum suorum non in literis quorumlibet disputatorum non in signis prodigijs fallaâibus c. sed in praescripto legis in Prophetarum praedictis in Euangelistarum praedicationibus Baro. p. 337. in eandem sententiam plura p. 338. 4. THe fourth exception out of S. Augustine is that disputing with the Donatists he vrged them to shewe by Scripture how theirs and not the Catholike or vniuersall was the true Church and would not haue the matter tryed by their Councells I answer that though the Church once knowne and her authoritie admitted that will serue to determine controuersies as you heard S. Augustine saie before yet when the Question is of the Church it selfe Whether it be a thing in the intention of our Sauiour confined to one Nation or extended ouer all and with an Aduersarie who doth admit Scripture the way to demonstrate against him vt ex tuis concessionibus c. S. Aug. li. con Cresc c. 33. the way I saie to demonstrate against him is to looke vpon the Prophecies and see the description of it there and to harken withall what our Sauiour in the Gospell hath deliuered of it The Donatists with whom S. Augustine deales admitted the canonicall bookes wherein these two things are and they being once admitted the Question might be defined out of them And of the testimonies of the Lawe and Prophets and Psalmes and of our blessed Sauiour himselfe in this controuersie of the Church S. Augustine said vnto the Donatists r S. Aug. de vnit Eccles cap. 16. haec sunt caâsae nostrae documenta haec fundamenta haec firmamenta the cause he speakes of was Whether the Donatists iâ Africk or the Catholikes in all Nations were the Church whether ãâã were a thing confined vnto the limits of that contrey or extended ouer all the world according to Gods intention and the testimonies of our Sauiour and of the Law and of the Prophets and Psalmes these testimonies he saith were documents and foundations and establishments of this cause He was not to proue it out of Councells for he that denies the whole doth withall reiect the authoritie of each part or what euer is within the whole
to beleeue that a part is greater theÌ the whole The Authoritie of m England also before Caluin was borne beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse and offered it for the quick and the deade See the Prudentiall Ballance all NatioÌs Christian moues me more then the Authoritie of one n Other Protestants admit not your Confession onlie now deuided and apart Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie or that bread properlie was crucified for my sinnes I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene not wiser then the Church I reuerence her decrees and am readie to be directed by her Whether those you pretend vnto were so too will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale ân which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself Of such Councels your fellowes haue questioned many things as first who hath power to call them secondlie what persoÌs are to be in them thirdlie who is to preside Fourthlie whether they be infallible in their decrees fiftlie which be such Councels The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these but onlie what learned men Catholikes haue deliuered taught about the infallibitie of a CouÌcell supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall which supposition being premised The four first your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall and it is confessedlie a possible supposition the Question is this Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie âecumenicall such as were generall ând approued that in decrees of Faith they might mistake and ârre Wee dispute not you and ãâã now whether this or that Councell be such a Councell That is another matter Nor whether such a Councell supâose it be and define be infalâble But what men Cathoâike Deuines haue auerred âouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall entire and âpproued The termes of the Question âe remarkable Councels not whatsoeuer but generall and âpproued or entirelie oecumeâicall Deuines of the Catholike âommunion not Hereticks Wee know that Hereticks reâuse entire approued Councels Matters of Faith not matters âf Fact Auouched openlie the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere Which if it were true that I note this by the way the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding continue firme The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre and negligence of discipline in a Superiour is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found and least of all by obscure passages Dark and hard speaches may be found in o Vide S. Hieron Apolog. adu Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur innocenter quaedam minus cautè loqunâi sunt quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare vide S. Aug. de Praedest Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers that seeme to make againsâ such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall and some Fathers haue doubted of some âaue denied p Euseb Hist Eccles li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron de Script Eccles in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru p. 664. See the Disp pag. 431. bookes of Scriâture which all now beleeue âo be Canonicall wherefore if ãâã this matter of Councels-auââoritie the like should haue âappened the tenet of Assistanâe giuen to them in their deârees of faith being grounded ãâã Scripture and hauing for it ãâã more euident perpetuall tradiââon then you can shew for diâers parts of Scripture which âou do beleeue to be diuine âere still euen by you in like âanner to be admitted and âaintained vnles you think it âwfull to reiect those Books alââ because once doubted of or âenied and neuer to beleeue âat which might with a preânce of authoritie be oppoââd or contradicted Thus I could answer and âare the labour to talke further of the matter Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becausâ you wrong some that be leaâned worthie Authors and some Fathers too least you finâ adherents that will beleeuâ you to the preiudice of theâselues and others vpon yoâ bare word when they sââ none contradict and confuâ that you boast of I will suruââ the citations Our dispute in this matteâ is to be of Catholikes it is as bâfore was noted impertineââ to talke of others and of sucâ as in plaine termes haue auouchâ and maintained what you prâtend they did Wee know thâ some haue beene mistaken ãâã great matters and yet contânued in the Church either bâcause the thing was not suffâcientlie brought to light ãâã matters appertaining to diuinâ faith be not at all times equaâlie proposed or because they were readie to submit themselues As in the QuestioÌs of the Canon of Scripture of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks c. and conforme their iudgment as soone as the Church declared her self Wee know âoo that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith and of these some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach and before in all ages âuen the primitiue Others haâe discouered their temptaâions with all the motions of âheir vnderstanding to and âro concealing onlie the finall âesolution or euent Of which ânfirmitie some and not wiâhout scandall haue exhibited âhemselues by their writings âublicke spectacles to the âorld With those you and ãâã need not meddle being to âpeake of such onlie if any can âe found as haue openlie denied the infallibilitie aboue specified and yet enioyed the communion of the Church notwithstanding such a knowne deniall She doth not thrust out of her communion one who doth onlie propose his doubtes to be resolued nor yet if by way of disputation he venters to far but without auouching especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment or if he so conceale his mind or vtter himself so that nothing can be directlie proued against him Secret and concealed thoughts she cannot look into Euerie one is to be presumed good vnles the contrarie may be proued As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets vnles it be made appeare otherwise Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs oâherwhile be not of vs. Some âo beare themselues for Caâholikes who be in their hearâes Atheistes or Heretikes There be no doubt Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia 2. Corint 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi ex vobis vnus diabolus est Ioan. 6.
alios autem ita lego vt quaâtalibet sanctitate doctrinaque polleant non idâo verum puâem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos vel probabili ratione quod à veritate non abhorreat persuadere potuerunt Baro p. 333. ex Aug. Ego solis eis Scriptoribus qui canonici c. Ibidem 1. OVT of that which hath been obserued from Stapleton will appeare the sence of S. Augustine wherefore he comes next There are four or fiue places cited out of him against the authoritie of Councells but for the most part verie impertinentlie and altogether against his minde We knowe there is a greate difference betwixt the canonicall writers and others betwixt the Epistles of the Apostles and those of Bishops after them betwixt their Acts written by S. Luke who in all he affirmes or relates is infallible and the Acts of generall Councells whose writers had not that assistance Wee doe not equalize or parallell one of these writings with the other Wee giue the soueraigntie to the scripture as being infallible in all so farre that it doth no where at all mistake in any thing This reuerence wee giue to the testimonie of those writers in what euer they auerr and giue not the like to any other testibus aut testimonijs be they witnesses or testimonies Albe it wee beleeue other witnesses in diuers things also though not so generallie in all without exception But I come to your exceptions The first is out of the 19. Epistle where S. AVGVSTINE tells S. Hierom to whom he writes it that he doth not imagine he would haue him so reade his bookes as if it were a heinous thing to doubt whether perchance in them some errour might be found that priuiledge was reserued to sacred writers I confesse saith he that vnto those bookes of scripture onlie which are now called canonicall I haue learned to deferre this feare and honour that I most firmelie beleeue none of those Authors to haue erred any thing in writing and if in eis literis in those writings I finde any thing which may seeme contrarie to the truth I make no doubt but that either the booke or coppie is faultie or that the interpreter hath not vnderstood what was said or that I my selfe doe not conceaue or vnderstand it In Baroe who doth vrge this authoritie against the Church and Councells decree or sentence and impertinentlie you may note these corruptions first that for a Si cum doctiore amico sic disputemus vt quicquid dixerit necesse sit approbare nec quaerendi saltem causa liceat aliquantulum reluctari tum verò sine vllo timore offensionis tanquam in caÌpo luditur sed mirum si nobis non illuditur Ego enim fateor charitati tuae solis eis ScripturaruÌ libris qui iam canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribeodo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Ac si aliquid in eis offendero literis quod videatur contrarium veritati nihil alâud quam vel mendosâm esse codicem vel interpretem non assecutum esse quod lictum est vel me minimè intellexisâe non âmbâgam Alios autem ita lego vt qâaâta âbeâ sanctitate doctrinaque praepolleant non ideo veââm pâââm quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicâs vel probabili ratione quod à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerunt Nec te mi frater sentite aliquid aliter existimo prorsus inquam non te arbitror sic legi tuos libros velle tanquam Prophetarum vel Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est S. Aug. Epist 19. ad Hier. Scripturarum libris to accomodate it the better for his purpose he puts in Scriptorum and Scriptoribus vrging the word against vs. Secondlie he omits aliquid in that part nullum eorum authorum scribendo aliquid errasse whereas the force of the speach and prerogatiue is by that word specified Thirdlie because in the words immediatlie following if they had been put downe his corruptions had been laid open to the reader by another aliquid and litteris he leaues them out immediatlie ioyning others which he thought to be more for his purpose as by comparison of his citation put aboue pag. 101. to the words themselues in this Addition it will appeare QVanquam sicut paulò ante dixi tantummodo Scripturis canonicis hanc ingenuam debeam seruitutem qua eas solas ita sequar vt conscriptores earum nihil in eis omnino errasse nihil falliciter posuisse non dubitem Baro p. 335. ex S. Aug. ad eundem sensum plura S. Augustines minde is further opened by another place brought as against vs out of the same Epistle S. Hierome had obiected against him seuen authors for his opinion in the matter whereof they dispute in that conference made by letters and demanding whom he followed he S. Aug. shewes first that S. Hierome did not approue of fower of his owne so that he was to finde out onlie three to set against the three that remained to which purpose he mentioneth as fauouring him S. Ambrose and S. Cyprian vnto whom because be did not himselfe esteeme so of their authoritie as if there might not exceptions be taken against their writings or opinion in some matter he addes a third of authoritie incontroulable namelie S. Paul His b Flagitas á me vt aliquem saltem vnum ostendam cuius in hac resententiam sim secutus cùm tutam plures nominatim commemoraueris c. cùm sint fermè sex vel septem horum quatuor authoritatem tu quoque infringis Nam c. tres igitur restant c. Si quaeras quid hinc senserit noster Ambrosius quid noster itidem Cyprianus inuenies fortasse nec nobis defuisse quos in eo quod asserimus sequeremur quanquam sicut paulò ante dixi tantuÌmodo Scripturis c. vt suprà pag. 105. S. August epist 19. words obiected which are by him vttered on the foresaid occasion be these I owe to the canonicall scriptures onlie this ingenuous seruice or subiection whereby I follow them onlie so as I firmelie beleeue that their writers erred in them nihil omninò nothing at all nor put any thing in them deceitfullie It is the verie same that was before deliuered out of Stapleton And the rest of the citations wherein he compares writings with the Scriptures haue all the samesence * Neque enim quorumlibet disputationes quamuis Catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus vt nobis non liceat salua honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere si forte inuenerimus quod aliter senserint quam veritas habet diuino adiutorio vel ab alijs
and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not only sound out but also brought to the authoritie and strength of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeed but afore wee were borne And a litle after the words obiected gg c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most consenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church vnto which vndoubtedlie he S. Cyprian would haue yeelded if as then the truth of this question being cleered and declared had been established by a generall Councell Hence it followes first that he did acknowledge in generall Councells authoritie to determine controuersies and this controuersie particularlie of rebaptization which you hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum qui certè fundamentalis âo fuââ noâdum erat in concilio plenario damnatus c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a matter fundamentall and that therein the truth was established by authoritie not of scripture this matter was not so resolued but of the world in a Councell and so farre established that all were to beleeue it and remotis dubitationibus without as much as doubting of it Whence it comes secondlie that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall which word he doth vse vppon another occasion and that such as maintaine the contrarie are indeed heretikes Thirdlie it is to be repeated which hath been said oft before that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of sincere and approued generall Councells in their decrees of faith yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake and in all kinde of matter as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture and consequentlie there may be something in such a Councell sometime that may need mending Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall haue infallibilitie in their decrees some haue as those which are approued some haue not and these later may need mending euen in the decree they make touching faith Moreouer though the Councell that is plenarie and approued cannot commaund a vice or condemne vertue by decree yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed And if a lawe which at first was well made the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed become inconuenient and consequentlie not good in these circumstances though good in it selfe and in other circumstances such as those were wherein it was first made it may be changed by power equall to that which made it The Apostles by decree did forbid the eating of suffocata things strangled yet afterwards when the circumstances were charged and feare of scandall quite remoued the Church began to doe the contrarie To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe now it were a Sinne peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret S. Tho. 1.2 q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie for the time they were commaunded If you be sick physick is good if you be well the same is bad for you The same thing may be conuenient and inconuenient good and bad in diuers circumstances When the common-wealth is distempered a lawe may be necessarie and at other times not vsefull yea inconuenient and therefore to be annulled And the common-wealth in anulling of it mends her Statute-booke respectiuelie to these later circumstances though when she made it first she did not commit a fault Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended nor to be doubted of that it is hereticall to oppose them and consequentlie that they haue nor exteriour onlie but interiour obedience also remotis dubitationibus due to such their decrees which being manifest in him you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected vnto all which were to make him contradict both the truth and the Church of his time and himselfe He saith and wee too that some generall Councells may be mended when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp and knowne which before was vnknowne but some generall Councells cannot be mended no nor questioned or doubted of in their decrees touching faith Now to your obiections in particular First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith I answer that those words in matter of faith be your addition He speakes indeed of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne but diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith be not of this nature Neither if there had been expressed in that clause which is of generall Councels matters of faith were you able to conclude any thing against vs for wee graunt that some which beare the name may be mended in that also Of all wee cannot graunt it without contradicting S. Augustine and making him withall to contradict himselfe Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer is Scripture he meanes them all and will haue all subiect vnto mending I answer that he intended to satisfie three things obiected 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example 2. S. Cyprians writings 3. S. Cyprians Councell The comparison of Scripture is with writings and it is a part of his answer to the Second point as I haue related it And it is true that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings vide suprà pag. 130. pag. 106. marg that nothing at all can be questioned which it affirmes To S. Cyprians Epistles or any other mans wee owe not that seruice or honour Of Councels he speakes afterwards in the third place and you knowe that it is not essentiall to their decrees to be written There is also great difference betwixt Councells and the Scripture in infallibilitie as hath been showne many times although the decrees in faith of such as are approued are infallible But if you will haue him aime at this that all generall Councels whatsoeuer may be mended and in their decrees of faith you make him as before was obserued to contradict himselfe For these are contradictorie some may not as that of Nice and all may Moreouer by that saepè it is manifest that his speach is not generall as you would haue it saepè is short of Semper And the qualification which he doth vse is another argument of the same Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words principallie obiected of amendment in matter of faith he leaues vnanswered the Donatists obiection But neither will this make any thing to your
quâd antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌpluÌ adhibuimus SaÌcti CoÌciliâ quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie âhose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌd What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâeâ homine Volunt tameÌ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in âerno sea conscientiae Siâ Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated