being And for your Succession since the last pretended Reformation it was interrupted in Queen Maries daies when a Popish Priest was your Predecessor who had his autoritie from the Bishop who was a Papist and held of the Pope I could tell you their names if need were And neither that Priest or any of his Successors ever since have had any other calling or Ordination but from the Bishops as long as they were standing Pr. If this were true touching Succession yet you cannot denie but that we have the word and Sacraments and a companie of faithful Christians communicating in those Ordinances under a faithfull Pastor are a visible Church of Christ Ph. Touching the Word and Sacraments I have alreadie given you an answr and indeed the Papists and almost all Hereticks pretend as you do and have the word amongst them and their Ministers or Priests have as orderly a Calling and Ordination as yours have and yet this makes them not the true visible Churches of Christ as all you do acknowledg Pr. I do not conceive that the Papists have either the Word or Sacraments amongst them for that the word is so corrupted by their false Glosses and Translations that it s made a leaden rule to be bowed everie way to serve their own turn for upholding their superstitions and their service is in Latine which the common people understand not And for the Sacrament of Baptisme it hath so manie additions that the Nature of it is destroied And for their Ministerie they are professed Papists and adversaries to Christ in all his Offices Ph. I do confess their Ministers are no Ministers of Christ but lims of Antichrist in respect of their Callings yet I do not condemn them all as Reprobates no more then I do Pope Gregorie the great Thomas a Kempis Ferus Stella and other their Preachers whom I think to have been godly and devout men in their times And for corrupting the Scriptures if putting false Glosses upon them make Gods word cease to be Gods word then are you Formalists deeply guiltie for the vulgar Translation is abominably corrupt and yet you allowed it and manie of you used it translated in the late service-Service-Book And all that you alledge for your succession of Ministerie and visible Churches your Classes Councels and Synods their autoritie over other Churches compelling others by the Temporall Power to believe and worship God as they see best is in effect grounded upon or agreeing with the corrupt Glosses and notes of the Rhemists upon the New Testament and other popish Authors and thence fetched by the late Formalists to defend themselves against the Puretans And for the Latine Service it is much like our Organ Anthems both edifying alike and the one as tollerable as the other See the old Protestant and New Formalist Pa. 36.37 And concerning the Papists addition of Cream Salt Spittle c. to the Sacrament of Baptisme I confess the addition wicked and abominable and yet no worse haply nor so bad as the Cross which you received and used for that serves to blesse or rather conjure all the rest and is honored with Divine honour and an holie daie appointed for it And yet I must tell you that with one consent you allow of this Sacrament administred by the Papists who do not administer it but with these additions to be a true Sacrament And you hold that those who were baptized by Papists are not to be rebaptized Pr. For my part I have cast off these corruptions and am constant to those principles tending to Reformation which others my Reverend Brethren of the Clergie have approved of and I am now about to set up the Government of Christ in my Parish Ph. I fully understand your designe you and your fellowes intend the old but not the oldest way of pretended Reformation wherein you shuffle and cut as fast as Hocus Pocus and your proceedings are so ridiculous that everie indifferent capacitie hath light enough through your figleaves to see your nakedness Pr. Wherein are we guiltie of such shufling or why are we so ridiculous Ph. In your proceedings for upholding your Parishes you pretend one thing viz. Reformation but your end and designe is to avoid the danger of loosing your Livings in case the Parishes should be dissolved Pr. I know nothing we do for which we can be justly censured we continue our preaching and do endeavour to settle Presbyterian Government according to Gods word Ph. For your preaching I earnestly desire you may sincerely applie your selves to it for that probably may do some good but for your other fetches and devices they savour more of Politicks then Religion squared by Gods word Pr. What Policie can there be in setling the Presbyterian Government with the Classes and Synods we settle nothing but what we are willing likewise to submit unto and to be judged by as well as the people Ph. Let the Government be what it will so your Livings and estates may be secured it s no great matter if the Parlament please but to declare that all your Parishes are visible Churches that you may hold them intire and the people be inforced to pay you all your Tithes Oblations obventions Mortuaries and other dues you will be satisfied and wait for further Reformation when it may stand with your honour and profit And upon that condition you will submit to the present Government of the Common-wealth But if your interest in these things be interrupted or in danger you know no other way to secure them but by setling this Government And this is the mark at which you shoot take but a view of those places your own Parish for one where the Elders are chosen do they serve for anie thing but Cyphers or do you and they act anie thing towards Reformation but meerly to this end and purpose Pr. I do confess if the Churches were equall or independent so there were Government as well in Church as Common-wealth and other things in order it might be well And where the Elders are chosen if Reformation go not on it is because the Elders refuse to act or joyne with the Minister Ph. I confess I know some nominated for Elders who make scruple to joyne with you in your business haply because they have found out your deceit which is meerly to make a shew of Reformation but your chief end is the securing your Livings Pr. That is not the cause of their refusal it is because the Parlament doth not arme them with power to execute their Offices and compell obedience to their injunctions as is fit for Ecclesiastical Magistrates Ph. If your proceedings were of God you would not need the secular Power to compel to obedience such as are within the Church and for those which are without you have nothing to do with them The censures of the Church are Gods Ordinance for that end and are most effectual But for that compulsive power you speak of it savours of the Tyrannie of
fellow having been two or three years or it may be less at the Universitie and put him up into the Pulpit not doubting of his calling to the Ministry And all these in order to the service of these mens pride and covetousness Pr. I perceive you finde fault almost with every thing although never so ancient and inoffensive What can you say against Mariage why it should not be accounted to belong to the Ministry having been so long used in the Church Ph. I answer that Marriage is a civill action and belongs to the Magistrate to see it orderly done and so was used under the Law and is so used at New-England and in other reformed Churches at this day Ruth 4.9 Lechfield newes c. pag. 39. It s true that in corruption of time when Antichrist prevailed above the civill power it was brought into the Church that the Priest might have an oare in every boat and no man marry but whom they permitted And by this meanes it was looked to that the Priests might not marry and those persons who did marry must have the Parish Priests Certificate or Licence least any grist should go by their mill Pr. This may be true and yet the thing not unlawfull for the Minister in the face of the Congregation to joyne the marryed couple and to give them some good exhortation fit for such a Solemnitie Ph. Why may not as much be done by a godly Magistrate being a civill action and common to all Nations But that is not all after the Marriage was annexed to the Ministeriall function the Church of Rome soone made it a Sacrament and the Ring must needs be added as the outward signe of love the invisible grace that as the Ring is endlesse the marryed couples love should be endlesse A worthie Sacrament and without doubt fit to be retained in the Church for the benefit of the Clergie both in respect of honor and profit the two maine things of all their designes Pr. But I pray you why may not burying the dead be a fit action for the Minister and a funerall Sermon requisite for them which are living Ph. For burying the dead It s also a civill work of Charitie for Christians to accompanie the corp's of their dead friends to the grave and to lay them there without more adoe and the dead also may burie their dead And what the Minister hath there to do more then another man I know not Pr. It s fit he should give some exhortation to the people and if he preach a Funerall Sermon it s done for the edification of the living and not for the dead and preaching is good in season and out of season Ph. I confess the word ought to be preached in season and out of season but some times and places are so unseasonable as no christian prudence will admit it convenient to preach as the times now are for a man to preach in Westminster-hall when Judges are sitting though Paul preached upon Mars-hill the Judges Court at Athens or to preach a Sermon in a common hall when a companie are at dinner where no man regards these times and places are too unseasonable there being convenient times and places for such religious actions And for your exhortation or funeral Sermon they are more inconvenient and unseasonable then at anie other time and place being more abused and the very original being naught 1. First we read of no such thing in the Scripture onely we finde godly men used to accompanie others to the grave and sometimes made lamentation for them 2. Secondly these funeral Sermons or rather Orations were first used by the Heathen and then taken up by the Church of Rome who used at these Solemnities to praise the dead 3. Thirdly thence the Church of Rome came to pray for the dead and to this day defend it stifly And therefore as a learned man once said in a Sermon in my hearing we have left praying for the dead for the evill of it we may as well leave off praysing the dead by reason of the abuse of it 4. Fourthly now besides this the corruption of the times are such that the gift for the funerall Sermons so blindeth the eyes of the Ministers that generally they alwaies finde out one thing or other to commend the dead for although most prodigiously wicked as what man in his sickness or at some other time will not do or say some good for which the Minister presently in conceipt placeth the dead partie in Paradise to the woful hardning of the wicked many of their auditors in a course of sin when they hear as bad as themselves absolved by the Minister as a Saint departed and a faithfull brother according to the blinde charitie of our Service-Book And were it not that some profit comes to the Clergie by these funeral Orations they would as easily be laid aside as their prayer and exhortation at the grave for which they had nothing given unto them Pr. You seemed before to take exception to the Baptisme of Infants and truly you reason like an Independent who are for the most part Anabaptists Ph. I do not disallow of the Baptism of some Infants whom I conceive to have right to Baptisme but I do not allow of the Baptisme of all children indifferently nor of all such children whose Parents profess Christianitie Pr. The ancient Fathers testifie the Baptisme of Infants in the Church to be an Apostolicall Institution and to have been used from the Apostles times when whole housholds were baptized and no exception of children And there are many reasons and unanswerable arguments grounded upon Scripture both in the old and New Testament to warrant it And the verie Text it self is clear Acts 2.39 The promise is made to you and to your children c. And if the promise be made to them children they then have right to the signe or seal of the promise Ph. Touching what you alledg from the Fathers I confess I have not all those books in my custodie which I finde cited for this purpose but I have searched divers of them and if you please to examine them they make nothing for you All agree in this that Infants were baptized in the Primitive Church and Augustine affirmes it to be an Apostolicall Tradition August contr Donat. l. 4. ca. 23.24 Lib. 10. de gen ad liter ca. 23. Ciril in levi l. 4. But this doth not prove that the children of Heathens nor of all such who professed christianitie were baptized how wicked and lewd soever their parents were or whither of the Church or excommunicate And such as hold all ought to be baptized hold that children dying without Baptisme cannot be saved Cipri Epi ad fidum 137. And for your Arguments from Scripture you can thence conclude nothing But that the Infants of believers have been and may be baptized And if you observe where you finde whole Families baptized as the Jailor Acts 16.14.15.33 34. and Lydia's
and put out at their pleasures and this must be allowed for the people surrendred or rather yeilded up by compulsion into the hands of these wolves pretending to be Shepherds all their right and power But alas this grew through corruption of time when Antichrist was come to his height then he and his Prelates inthralled the Churches and wrested from the poor people that right which the Gospel gave unto them and which continued for the first three hundred years after Christ as is confessed by the Papists and Protestants Fullers holy state li. 2. ca. 12. pa. 87. Acts 1.23 6.5 Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 19. Sect. 31. 14. Se. 31. Cath Divine An. Caudrey Case Prefa sect 8. Magd Cent. 2. ca. 7. cent 3. c. 7 Cipr. epist l. 1. epist 4. epist 3. l. 1.3 epist 11. But these Wolves made void the Law of God by their Traditions and the slavish Ministerie of England are unwilling to come out of this Babylonish servitude but with Issachar because he sees rest is good or rather his Benefice fat he croucheth down under the burthen But see the use and equitie of it in our dayes it may be at the first this power of presentation was given to a good man or rather he took it because he founded or endowed the Church but by revolution of times it comes by descent or purchase to an Atheist a Papist a Symonist or some wretch not fit to be trusted with the life and death of a dog much less with the soules of men And by this means the souls of men according to that Prophecie become the merchandize of Rome for who seeth them not set to sale almost by every Patron yea and their bodies too Rev. 18.13 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for according to the number of the people and the profit of their bodily labours is the Advowson sold for more or less And I know no other way in all the world how the bodies and souls of men can be made the merchandize of Rome but by this means nor is the Prophecie any other way fulfilled for if it should be meant of selling slaves that properly belongs to the Turks Pr. But I told you although some Patrons prove Latrons and sell the Presentations the people may except against the partie presented if he be not a worthie man and if they do not it s their own fault Ph. You had need to have more skill in Divinitie then you have in the Law Alas this Libertie is but a meer gullerie and cousenage of the people If any one refuse to admit or do keep out the partie presented And a quare impedit or such Writ be brought to trie the right Gods Law never comes into question but only who hath the best title to present by the Law of the Land which is Popish in that point as in manie others the Lord of heaven amend it and lookes only upon the presentation as a temporal right without judging the matter as appertaining to Religion therefore I pray you speak no more of this matter for the more you stir in in it the more it stinks But shew me some better evidence of your calling Pr. I will shew you sufficient Wee have abilities and gifts fit for the Ministerie being apt to teach and able to divide the word of truth aright And our Ministerie is sealed by the conversion of soules and however our outward calling in a nicetie may be defective yet we have the inward which is most effectuall and therefore there is no cause of separation Ph. For your calling I account it not right for what you formerly alledged And for that you last said its no proofe that your calling to the Ministerie is lawful for a private man may be abundantly gifted yea and convert souls as common experience sheweth and yet have no calling to the Ministerie And this I dare farther add and know by mine own observation that God doth not bless the Ministers labours who have received the mark of the Beast by their conformities and subscriptions as he doth the labours of other faithful men And the reason is because they stood not in Gods wayes for if they had they should have turned the people from their iniquities But for want of a faithful Ministerie it hath pleased God to blesse the endeavours of godly Parents and religious governours of families and private Christians who with Joshua serve the Lord to the conversion of many more souls then are turned unto God by these mens Ministery how learned and Orthodox soever So that where a man can hardly finde any converted by the Ministery of these men he may finde the footsteps of Religion and godlinesse derived from religious Parents and Families for the continuance of the Church from generation to generation even to admiration And your old conformitie and Subscription which you are constrained to defend by Popish arguments when you have to deal against the Brownists and Independents are a great blemish to the Ministery Pr. We subscribed to nothing which was unlawfull although many things were inconvenient Ph. Thanks bee to God that we be rid of the Hierarchy of Arch-bishops Diocesan Bishops Arch-Deacons Deans and the rest of that rabble the Books of Common-prayer Homilies consecration of Priests and Deacons with the spiritual Courts Licenses Dispensations Commutations of Pennance Consecration of daies to Saints and some to wicked men and Idols as the Crosse and the Rhoode daies observed by some forbidding of meats and marriage at some times with their Canons and Ceremonies Crosses Surplices worship of the breaden God and many other popish trinkets All which the most ingenious amongst your selves have condemned as not capable of purgation but fit to be abolished else I could easily prove the whole body of them which are contained in your Subscription most of them being injoyned and set forth in the Rubrick and the rest comprehended in your Oath and Canonicall obedience to be reliques of Antichrist invented by that man of sin and his vassals and are at the best humane presumptions brought into the Church without warrant of the Word Vid. Preface to the Common-prayer Book or teaching Ceremonies which Christ onely ought to appoint who is the Teacher of his Church and serve for nothing else but to mis-leade the simple and to offend the weak and tend onely to conformity with Rome And therefore altogether unlawfull But cheifly the Cross which in Baptism is made the sign and Seal of the whole work of Sanctification is the worst of all Popish Ceremonies and the greatest Idol in the Romish Church except the Virgin Marie for that blesseth all the rest and therefore is the greater as Bellarmine teacheth Bellar. Contr. de sacra Confer l. 2. c. 13. pa. 371. These things you know better then I do yet I name them thus briefly that you may consider of them and not wilfully hudwink your conscience and imprison or withhold the truth in unrighteousness but that you may come
exalting the Clergie payment of Tithes punishing of other men of contrarie judgements under the names of Sectaries and Schismaticks defence of Classes and Synods for politick ends under pretence of Order defence of their own Callings to the Ministerie and other such like tending to their honor and profit And in effect their preaching it self is but a preaching of themselvs when they tell us of the great honor due unto them and of their great labour that they travel as those that bring forth labour as the husbandman may as under Rowers in Turkish Gallies from whence one said the Metaphor is taken although there was no Turkish Gallies within the space of 620 years after that was written And of their honorable maintenance which they plead for All which are but meer Policies and oftentimes with these things they mingle divinitie as Thomas Aquinas doth Philosophie with his Schoole divinitie And upon the whole matter Preaching is made but a trade to get money and to live by and the Conversion of souls comes in but as a subordinate end to their other advantages Pr. I wonder how you dare thus vilifie the Ministers of the Gospel they take no more honour to themselvs then the holy Prophets Apostles and men of God did assume and for their painful callings they say no more then Paul and others of the Apostles said And for their preaching its a matter of labour and alwaies founded upon some Text of Canonical Scripture Ph. What I have said is no way dishonorable to the holy Prophets Apostles Pen-men of the holy Scriptures to whom agree all those things properly which these Politicians falsly and arrogantly take to themselvs First for honour it stood in this that they were the Secretaries of almightie God and of the Lord Christ the unerring Scribes and Pen-men of the holy Ghost holy men of God and are all in heaven And for their labours I refer you to a Catalogue of them left recorded by the holy Apostle Paul 2 Corinth 6.5.11.23 c. But above all their labours there mentioned behold the sufferings who as the Prophets did most of them laid down their lives for the Lord and his Christ and for that truth of God which they delivered 37 38. Hebr. 11.36 Where are any of these men who dare say this honour belongs to them they have undergone these labours or have suffered thus for the Lord Jesus his Cause or truth All they can say is that they are Ministers of the Gospel I wish that were true from my verie soul if it be not but I doubt the most part of these men make merchandize of the Gospel and in managing thereof use as manie sleights and deceits of men as others do in secular Callings carrying all their busines aloft in a mysterie that they may be accounted Oracles and will have everie one bound to believe all they deliver how false frothie and erroneous soever because their Text is a part of the holy Canonical Scripture but a great part of their Sermon no kin unto it but composed to further their own honour and profit Pr. You talk of manie sleights and deceits which they use in their Ministerie I pray what are they Ph. I could tell you manie but I will only name two of these mens sleights besides what I have alreadie pointed at which tend much to their ease and profit and are invented of late Pr. What are those Ph. The first is this when they are young and have little or nothing to do They make them a common place book of the Bodie of Divinitie as young Lawyers make them a common place book of the Law And this they gather out of such writings as suit best with their genius or fancie the most fantastical who would be counted most learned collect it out of the Schoole-men a sort of rotten Divines and Fathers especially Origen The superstitious out of School-men Postillers and other Friars the most discreet and sober out of the writings of modern Divines as Perkins Amesius Chemnisius Musculus Calvinus Vrsinus Vossius Beza Rivetus Weames Peter Martyr Piscator and such like The more ignorant sort make use of Boyce's his Postills or collect a companie of Sermons either as they hear them preached or as they think fit to cull them out of the great store of English Books which are in everie place to be had And this may be some two years work and that is time enough when this is done they are readie for a Church Living and without doubt as one of the sons of the Prophets have an especial calling to preach Then they come from the Universitie and bring with them the curse of Elie's house crouching to some or other to put them into the Priests Office that they may eat a morsel of bread have a Living to maintain them and keep from want or use their friend Symon Magus his wisdom to shew an apparition of Angels and by that means wrap for a thousand bodies and souls of men or more or less as their purse will speak Well the bargain is made the man is approved of rung into his Church and gives great hope that he will be a peaceable man and use the Parishioners well for their Tithes And so falls to preaching so soon as he hath had sufficient time to fit himself to satisfie the humours of his auditorie which is a main Policie at the first And to this purpose if he have not his Sermons alreadie written he takes a a Text sutable to his common place upon which he will preach and writes his Sermon in a Book verbatim Then when he comes up into the Pulpit instead of preaching he reads his Text and all his Sermon out of his paper Book which sometimes for the credit of his Cause is bound up like a Bible And this is the pains he takes and is as confident that he dischargeth his dutie as if he exercised all the gifts of the Spirit and this Sermon serves for twentie Texts being reduced to his common place This course the most learned and Orthodox amongst the rigid Presbyterials whom I know do take from day to day some making better Sermons then others but generally all are tacked with these diseases of idleness and hypocrisie in this respect The idlest and most unlearned reade over their tasks of Sermon having but a certain number as I have seen proved upon oath and then begin again And I once heard one that lately was a Minister in London charge another that he never studied but on Saturdaie night wrote out of a book half an houres matter and then reade it in the Pulpit on the Lords day and another that he thought not of his Sermon untill the bell ringed And yet all these men in my knowledg pass for constant preaching Ministers and neither Readers of Homilies nor dumb Readers of the old fashion whereas indeed they that thus read are either such as with the evil Servant and sloathfull hide their Talent in the Earth
new Elders or assistants surely herein they made you an absolute Pope and sole Judge of that which the Bishops never allowed nor do your Brethren of the Province of London approve thereof But was this all you did I doe suppose you and your Elders should have informed your selvs whether such as intended to communicate had set up Christ in their Families and places in the exercises of Religion and had shewed forth by their conversations the signs of faith and Repentance these things are necessarie for all Communicants Ph. For the lives of the Communicants they are better known to others then to me and for my part I shall not take notice of them but do desire that those who are privie to such offences as may justly debar the receivers from the Sacrament will make it known to me and I shall acquaint the Church viz the Elders with it and take their advice what to do And so shall I likewise crave their assistance in Judiciall Examination for the future Ph. It seems you go no further but only to bring the people to conform to your new Government for I understand you had some of your Communicants were so verie ignorant that they could not tell you how manie Commandements there are and others knew not what Faith was and others answered as ignorantly And yet the names of these were taken by you and they admitted to the Lords Table and none were refused Pr. It s true I confess I found some ignorant but verie willing to conforme and receive instruction and that gave me good hope of them And therefore for the present least I I should discourage others I admitted all that offered themselves at the Table whose names I had before entred in my Book and divers others who were not of my Parish came also to my Church to receive at the same time for the incouragement of others Ph. Do you account this superficial dealing separating the precious from the vile when none are refused It is just as I expected it would be this is but the Counterfeit of Reformation and much like the Reformation which manie in the Church of Rome would willingly have for they have written divers Books tending to Reformation so it might not demolish the stately Fabrick of their pretended Church but might rather polish it by taking away those things which all men crie shame of and which do therefore indanger their Church the reforming of which would give them more hope of the continuance of the old Idolatrous Babel which yet together with all your devices will ere long come to ruine Pr. Nothing is perfect when its first brought forth what ever you think I conceive this to be a good begining of Reformation and I hope we shall proceed in it to more perfection But touching the Reformation of the Church of Rome I never expect anie they being appointed to destruction These are but the discouragements of you and others who oppose the setting up of all Government in the Church Ph. I have often told you we do not oppose all Government we would only have this building demolished that a better might be set up in the roome of it Pr. What course would you have for preaching the Gospel if the present Ministerie should be removed and the Churches disbanded Ph. Without doubt the Parliament seeth how that may be provided for For my part I wish that all the Parishes were dissolved as to the matters of the Church and all the Tithes belonging to the late Bishops Arch-Bishops Deans and Chapters Donatives Parsons and Vicars were released or sold at a reasonable rate to the owners of the Lands out of which they arise And these probably without anie addition may raise a sufficient revenue for maintenance of a godly and able Ministerie through this whole Common-wealth to preach the Gospel to all who will hear the word of God And all who shall be found worthie may be imployed Pr. What will this conduce for Reformation Ph. By this means this plant I meane this Popish Order of Ministerie who unjustlie usurp authoritie over the bodies souls and States of men calling them their Churches their Parishes their flock their sheep and their Tithes as if all were theirs nothing Christs not being of the planting of our heavenly Father will be plucked up which being removed the faithfull will have libertie and opportunitie to separate themselvs from the wicked and profane and be gathered unto Christ under true Pastors and Church-Officers who will lead them in the pathes of righteousness and truth where being associated together in Church-fellowship they will be more reformed then ever can be expected from anie companie in anie Parish-Congregation Pr. Well I now fully perceive what your intent is in a word you set your self to cast contempt upon our learned and reverend Clergie and to take from them their double honour both of reverence and maintenance and to bring them as low as the stipendarie Clergie of Germanie And I see no hope if your amendment I will therefore spend no more time with you yet I doubt not but we shall hold our Parsonages and Church-Livings as formerly we have done And if some will needs separate let not that hinder us of our Tithes and profits and then let them run after what new Teachers they please If they run from us we are discharged of that care which we should otherwise have of them Ph. Sir it may be before you and I meet again you may wheel about and change your minde as you and some others have done alreadie Remember what I say and so fare you well POSTSCRIPT REader thou maiest perceive by some passages in this Dialogue that the same was written some moneths if not years since which is true and the Author was resolved finding it difficult to get it pass the Presse to burie it in oblivion Hoping also that the pretended Clergie of the Land would have considered their waies and been wise But finding the follie of some of them through their Pride and Covetousness to grow into madness this Messenger is sent to stop their way farewell FINIS