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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93887	Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah: or, The first part of the duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. By Adam Steuart. Whereunto is added, the judgement of the reformed churches of France, Switzerland, Geneva, &c. concerning independants, who condemne them with an unanimous consent. Published by David Steuart. March 17. 1644. Imprimatur Ja: Cranford.; Duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. Part 1	Steuart, Adam.; Steuart, David, fl. 1644.	1645 (1645)	Wing S5494; Thomason E274_14; ESTC R209896	100,836	110

yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding

new proverbiall Sentences viz. a. Classicall Presbyterie is 13. Bishops O witty and weighty Sentence if any man understood it worthy only such an Ecclesiastes as himself to be Register of What praise merite ye not both Vunlo tu dignus ille In the the end of this sect he giveth out his metaphorical judgement to grinde the Idol of half Reformation to powder and yet professeth that he will not or which a man would rather beleeve cannot tell what it is O how ridiculous a Judge is this without judgement Only this I will say that 1. if it be Episcopacy as this new Master of Sentences C.C. say 2. if an Idol that must be grinded into powder as M.S. saith and 3. if Episcopal Government must be extirpated as the Covenant saith and as we all in swearing the Covenant say sure then the Scots are come in upon very worshipfull termes to assist the Independents viz. upon this Condition that when they have fought for them they shall extirpate them and grinde them all into powder Is not this a very quick Independent conception and yet notwithstanding all this which is worthy the noting these good men in taking the Covenant have sworn the preservation of the reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government i.e. according to their judgement good Prelacy or Episcopacy jura perjura And here like a little Pope he telleth us that all Churches generally purtly by Tyranny and partly by security are grown so corrupt that to apologise for a through Reformation seems to reprove all and so all will be offended None it seems shall be reformed unless they become Independent so that they and they alone may vaunt themselves Et nos ergo manum ferulae subduximus nos Consilium dedimus Syllae To his 4. Sect. I maintain that Independents dissent from all Christian Churches since no Christian Church holds it selfe Independent but yours and whether they be any Churches that are not Protestant we shall see in a particular Question howbeit it be an untruth that ever I said that Papists were Christian Churches He and his fellows doe well to dissent from Papists but not in dependency His Observations are false where he sayes that we run to the Popish markes of visibility succession and universality and I have refuted this calumny in my Answer to C.C. When I argue from visibility and number I doe as the Apostle doth in bringing many visible Saints as a great number of witnesses of our Doctrine Heb. 11. and not as Essentiall markes of our Church P. 10. Because I say that the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers are but men as I am and that they may erre out of this hee inferreth that I thinke I have more knowledge then they since they are not yet condemned by the Assembly Answ I deny the consequence for by the same reason every particular man that condemneth Anabaptisme and other Schismes and Heresies before they be condemned by the Synod should thinke themselves learneder then they are But is it such a crime to say that they are but men that may erre I pray you sir if ye be any other thing then men what are ye if ye be men who pretend ye cannot erre you must either be Sancta Mater Ecclesia Romana or els lead by Anabaptisticall Enthusiasines as with an ignis fatuus And pretend ye that by reason of your great learning ye are priviledged from errour I tell thee man that amongst the very Angels Lucifer and amongst men Adam in the state of integrity and since the Fall Achitophel and Salomon erred and yet every one of them were learneder then ye all I hope there is no man maketh the least question but the meanest of them was learneder then any of you yea then you all in cumulo And therefore vaunt not so much of your learning No learning but visio beatifica which ye want can priviledge a man from errour according to Schoole-men P. 11. Sect. 1. I have answer'd it is no Popish Argument when I oppose so great a number of Witnesses unto him for then the Apostles Argument Heb. 11. should be Popish what is thy mopish argument I know not for I never read mopish in the Index of my Bible nor amongst the termes of Divinity or Philosophy whether it be an injury or not I know not and care as little 2. It is an untruth to say that I would conjure him to yeeld any thing upon plurality of voyces for I have learned of some of his own party that they are no wayes minded upon plurality of voyces to submit themselves unto the venerable Assembly of Divines neither can it well agree with the independent Spirits of their Divinity that the spirits of Prophets be subject to Prophets They will that all be subject unto them Sect. 4. Neither are his 4. silly Arguments which are but one drawn up ab Exemplo of notorious Sinners Malignants Papists and Prelates who argue from the multitude of those of their way to the verity and equity of it any thing to the purpose First we cite but a number of reformed Divines and reformed Churches which hee acknowledges with us to be such so does not he of his Examples 2. And if I have erred in this wherefore did the Apologists shew me the way in citing the Examples of those of N.E. c 3. My Argument concludeth ad Hominem since they argue so 4. I ground not my selfe on this Argument alone but on a great number of others in my book whereuuto hee answers not nor can answer P. 17. Sect. 1. What he tells us of the number of their Churches they are but Churches of Sectaries and Schismaticall since they have cut off themselves and are separated from all Protestant Churches union and communion as I have often-times declared and I speak not of such Churches Sect. 3. He sayes that W.R. condemns the Apologists for agreeing with the Churches of N.E. and A.S. condemneth them for dissenting from them He should have done well to have coted the places of our Books and to have told at the same time in what points we condemne them in their consent and dissent for W.R. may condemne them for their consent in one thing and A.S. for their dissent in another If I condemne them for any dissent I may safely swear that either I have read it in their Books or heard it of Independents themselves What I say p. 17. sect 4. I say it again in my conscience that I verily beleeve that Independency cannot but prove the root of all Schismes and Heresies yea I adde that by consequence it is much worse then Popery And all this I have sufficiently proved in my Book whereunto he answers nothing And whereas he sayes I would do well to confer with some of them I write against I had thought I had sufficiently declared my readiness in that kind formerly and I again now declare unto you Sir in particular that I

in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the

of private or particular mens Iudgements The first binds and obliges them who are subject unto them the second cannot oblige any man to obedience and so I say 1. That in Questions already determined in Gods Word by his Church every man may determine as God and the Church have determined 1. Because God obliges us to determine our judgements according to the Determinations of his Word especially in things that are necessary to Salvation for the very publication of the Gospell obligeth us to assent 2. If every man determineth not according to Gods Word he sinneth 3. If particular men determine not their Iudgement according to Gods Word and because the thing beleeved is conforme to Gods Word it is not an Act of Divine Faith In these Determinations according to the Word I say that the Church Determination is publick 1. Because God hath endowed her with publick Authority to determine according to the Determination of his Word 2. Because she Iudges not by private authority as private men 3. Because Suspension from the Lords Table c. are not Acts of private but of publick Iudgement and authority This Authority of the Church is not Imperiall or Magisteriall but Ministeriall because the Ministers of the Church be nothing else but Gods Ministers or Servants and not Lords in the Church The Determinations and Iudgements of particular Persons are only particular and a Iudgement of Discretion 1. Because they proceed not from publick but from private and particular persons even when they proceed from a Minister 2. Because they have not publick authority to oblige Congregations but themselves alone 3. Their principall and intrinsecall ayme is not to be directions for others but for themselves and they doe not helpe to direct others in particular This M. S. objecteth that if A. S. determine it he anticipates upon the Assemblies Iudgement but that he must not doe so Answ I deny the Consequence 1. for the Assemblies Iudgement is publick and mine particular 2. It is already Iudged by the Church of this Kingdom that Presbyterian Discipline is not contrary to Gods Word for if it were it had never permitted it to be practised or approved in England as I have already shewed 2. To the Minor I answer That either by anticipating upon the Synods Iudgement he understandeth an anticipation by a publick Iudgement and that is impossible to me for my Iudgement is not publick but particular or by a particular Iudgement and then it is not properly an Anticipation or if he will needs have it to be so I answer that if I or any other Christian have learned any truth in Gods Word we are all bound to determine our particular Iudgements according to it Neither can the long Examination of businesses in Synods which proceedeth from Hereticks Sectaries and others their crafts malice or infirmities hinder us from determining the truths according to our particular Iudgements for if it could then whensoever any Heretick should start up and dogmatize against the first Articles of our Faith denying Gods Infinity Simplicity Perfection Eternity Immutability his Wisdome Decrees Power or Providence and his opinion were to be examined in a Synod we must begin to doubt and suspend our Iudgements as so many Pyrrhonians about all those points which already we beleeved by Faith and stand gaping for some new Determination of the Articles of our faith from Synods And so Synods should be most pernicious in making us to lose our Faith which before we had In a word we have received already the Determination and Resolution of the Independents questions in Gods Word in other Protestant Churches and the approbation of those Determinations here by the Church of England And the Discussion of them in the Synod is not to change Gods Ordinance but to give contentment unto weake Consciences if they can receive it Again If this Argument be strong I retort it against his Sect If the Quinque Ecclesian Ministers M. S. and C. C. determine these Questions as they doe in their printed Bookes here and Sermons also as we are credibly informed they also anticipate upon the Assemblies Iudgement But the First is true Ergo so must the Second also be Again Either this man with the rest of the Sectaries are minded to acquiesce to the Determination of the Synod or not If the first it is well it is more then I expect of them I pray God they deceive me if not what needeth he to sight so much for the Determination of the Synod which he is determined not to stand unto would not this seeme to be said in derifion of the Synod 2. Obj. A. S. In determining the Question taketh it out of the Assemblies hands Answ I deny the Consequence for it is in their hands by way of publick Authority publicke Iudgement and publicke Determination Now A. S. or any other particular Determination taketh not away the publick and Authoritative Determination Iudgement or Authority As for the stating of the Question this man will not permit me and consequently no particular man so much as to state it in particular and that for the same reason But if we may according to our particular Iudgement Determine it how much more may we state it since it can no waiess be Determined unlesse first it be stated Can the Synods stating and Determining the question free us of the obligation whereby we are bound to state it and Determine it according to Gods Word QUEST 4. Whether the Quinqu ' Ecclesian Ministers publish this their Apologeticall Narration seasonably yea or not against M. S. p. 24 25. c. that affirmes it I Maintaine the Negative part of the Question his Reasons are 1. Because before the publication thereof the Calumnies mistakes misapprehensions of their Opinions and many of those mists that were gathered about them or rather cast upon their Persons in their absence began by their presence againe and the blessing of God upon them in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for themselves and cause as the five Ministers say in their Apologeticall Narration M. S. p. 24. of his Booke Answereth 1. That that scattering of mists doth but relate to the people and onely to some of them viz. Those that professe or pretend the power of godlinesse as appeareth by the precedent period A. S. Reply 1. The precedent period hath no relation to this for it endeth with a full point 2. It is not the precedent period that should interpret the subsequent but rather the subsequent that should serve for interpretation to the precedent unlesse yee put the Explication before the Text. 3. Because it is said absolutely 4. They themselves beleeve now at this present that this relateth to others as yee may see p. 15. where they speak of those who incited the State not to allow them a peaceable practise of their Conscience and of some others who did write Bookes against them whom they accuse also of mis-apprehensions and mistakes

of their opinions 5. Put the case it were so yet was it not so seasonable for them then to write as before M. S. Answereth 1. That many of these mists and not all 2 That they did but begin to scatter A. S. Iust but it was not so seasonable to write when any of them as when none of them begun to scatter or after as before they begun to scatter so to speake Morally that Apology was not seasonable since it was lesse seasonable then it would have been formerly M. S. Their motions were like the lowrings of an unconstant morning in which the mists ascend and anon descend and by and by ascend and turne into a Scottish mist that will wet an English man to the skin as our usuall Proverb is A. S. 1. This is but a Simile Quod nil probat 2. It is to be noted here how he noteth this Proverbiall jeer of a Scottish mist in a different sort of letter as conteyning some particular mystery and consequently worthy of the Readers particular observation 3. Yet I may say that the Independent mist is more able to drown all England Scotland and Ireland then a Scottish mist the outward part of an English mans cloathes and so will all true English and Christian hearts judge If any thing have befallen you since the change of the time of your Exile more imaginary then reall it was your owne fault in seducing the people in a clanculary way and in making of clandestine Assemblies and Conventicles which good Ministers could not endure seeing that nothing could content you unlesse that all should stoop under you Neither hath your Apology any waies diminished any ill but rather taken away the good opinion they had of you Afterwards M. S. accuseth not only the people but also Mr. Rutherford and Mr. Herle and sundry other Ministers A. S. his second reason is They who are called by the Parliament and admitted by the Assembly of Divines into the Assembly howsoever that calling was to finde them good and not to make them so are supposed by them to be innocent and not culpable and especially after that they have sate long in the Assembly of Divines with honour and good respect and consequently they are sufficiently vindicated from all false Accusations and have no need to Apologize for themselves that being farre away more sufficient to justifie them before the world then any Apology whatsoever that they can write for themselves But the Apologists were so called c. Ergo. This is the sense and forme by me intended of my Argument in the fourth Observation and not that that M. S. putteth upon it As for his instance of the Bishops against the first Proposition that they were called by the Parliament to the Assembly and yet they were not for all that supposed to be innocent or vindicated I Answer 1. That the Bishops were not admitted into the Assembly of Divines as they were 2. If they had been admitted and continued as long as they without reproach how can any doubt but that their sitting there should have served them for a sufficient justification and vindification of their honour in foro externo before men since it is not morally to be presumed that such a grave Senate will call or such a holy Assembly of such Learned and Reverend Divines will admit and retaine so long together any scandalous persons in their Assembly So this being testimonium alienum non proprium and publicum non privatum without all doubt it was sufficient to justifie them and more then any thing they can say in their owne behalfe since they cannot speake as Iudges but as Parties who are evermore justly suspected A. S. 3. Reason He or they who are sent by authority of Parliament into Scotland with the Parliaments Commissioners to treat of an extraordinary great Reformation of Religion in England and Ireland for the preservation of the Religion in Scotland in bringing them all to uniformity according to Gods Word and the Example of the best Reformed Churches and have ended the businesse with them are not morally to be presumed to be culpable but sufficiently freed from all filthy aspersions in matter of Religion that can have been laid upon them at least in foro externo wherein only they can be justified by men in this life for it is not Morally to be presumed that the Parliament would have imployed any but Orthodox men and good men in a matter of so high a concernment and consequently they needed not to Apologize for themselves or if they doe so it was unseasonably done But the Apologizers are such men If it be said only one of them was such a man Answ It is all one 1. For in matter of Religion they lye all under one and the same notion 2. At least that one needed not to Apologize as he did 4. Because being minded to make an Apology they should either not have made it at all being Members ' of the Assembly or have done it before their Admittance thereunto or after the Dissolving of the Assembly This had been a great deale more seasonable for it is not fit for a man to Apologize for himself in a cause wherein he sitteth as Iudge or when he sitteth as Iudge 5. We can finde no ordinary Example of such proceedings either in Scripture or Ecclesiasticall History 6. Because they did it in a season when the Church State stood in need of the Brotherly assistance of all the best reformed Churches and in that very nick of time they under-valued them all as not having the power of Piety as they themselves censured their Ecclesiasticall Discipline as not agreeable unto Gods Word and called them Calvinians whereof we have a sufficient proofe in a Letter sent to the Assembly from the Synod of Walachria wherein it complaineth much against this Booke because of the offence that the Reformed Churches received thereby 7. Because it was published against the Scots Discipline in that very nick of time most unseasonable when they were invited to come into England and when they came to hazard their lives for the Church and State of England and for the lives and states of these very men who in the meane while were writing against their Discipline QUEST 5. Whether the Quixqu ' Ecclesian Ministers should not have done better to have published their Opinions by way of Thoses or in some other Didactick way rather then by an Apologeticall Narration IMaintaine the Affirmative part 1. Because that of all other is the most accurate and easiest way to manifest cleerly their Opinions by both to the learned and ignorant 2. Because all other waies of teaching beget confusion for in them we cannot discerne that which is Substantiall from that which is Circumstantiall as we may see in Comedies Tragedies all sort of Verses long Speeches Prayers Dialogues c. 3. Because in this Apologeticall Narration it selfe many things are inserted which touch not the Businesse at all 4.