Take heed of both Extremes OR Plain and useful Cautions AGAINST POPERY AND PRESBYTERY By way of DIALOGUE In Two Parts By LVKE DE BEAVLIEV LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun in St. Paul's Church-Yard 1675. TO THE Christian Courteous and Impartial READER I Would fain oblige thee in the beginning of my Book because possibly the rest will not please thee so well Therefore instead of a Preface or a short Advertisement wherewith usually the Reader is put off I give thee an Epistle Dedicatory This I hope will prove acceptable in that it is a new device and also because thou mayst have very cheap the Honour of having had a Book Dedicated to thee But yet besides I assure thee that this Book of itself is worth thy reading for it will make thee see in their natural shape and colours many things which before appeared only under a disguise and if thou art a Lover of Truth as all pretend to be thou canst not but rejoice to see it come out from under the Cloud where before it lay hid And withal thou mayst use it as an Antidote against the Infection of some sugared Poisons which many venture to drink of not knowing their deadly Qualities Therefore I require thee that thou wouldest not fling away the Book as soon as thou findest some things in it against thy former persuasions or thy present liking for oftentimes wholesom Physic is the most unpleasant and if thou readest through and then repentest of thy labour I give it here under my hand that I also will repent of mine but if the Book doth work upon thee the good effect I intended all the Requital I expect is this that as thou art unknown to the Author so thou wouldest not enquire after him because he is unwilling to be known any otherwise than by being Thy Real Friend and Affectionate Well-wisher L. B. P. THE PREFACE MAny Learned Books have been written against the Errors of the Church of Rome by several worthy Champions of the Church of England but usually they read them most that have least need of them while in the mean time they that have but little of knowledge are left unarmed against the Crafts and Subtilties of the Propagators of the Roman Faith I know there is an in-bred Aversion to Popery in the major part of our People but Popery is now a word of a very dubious signification and means rather what every one dislikes than what is so indeed and it is to be seen in the second part of this Book that they that exclaim'd most against what they pleased to call Popery ran themselves into the worst of Popish Errors However 't is not a brutish Hatred or a blind Zeal against unknown Errors can secure us from them A man may easily embrace his mortal Enemy if he knows him not or if he meets him under a disguise Jesuites are Travesty among us and so is their Doctrine they put a strange garb as well upon their Opinions as upon their Persons and I am confident they win more Proselytes by mis-representing the Popish Religion than by proving it to be true Therefore that they might no longer be imposed upon that have not the leisure or the capacity of knowing what the Papists do really believe contrary to that sound and orthodox Doctrine which is profest in the Church of England I have here set down their real Opinions taken out of their most approved Doctors and the Council of Trent itself having transcrib'd their very words without any the least alteration and then Englisht them as faithfully as their sense did require And afterwards I have added some of those places of Scripture which I thought most express against those Errors which our Church hath rejected as being contrary to Gods Word and the Faith of the Primitive Church Now if any man likes those Doctrines of the Church of Rome as they are really in themselves and as they stand in opposition to the Word of God let him embrace them if it so please him but let none flatter himself or be made to believe by others that the Popish Tenets I have mentioned are not so bad as I represent them for I have used the very Words and Expressions of their own Authors which certainly could not be made either better or worse by being transcrib'd by me Perhaps I shall be censur'd for having writ my Book Dialogue-wise and not well manag'd the Intrigue but if they that find fault with this like the matter let them not mind the form if not I had as lieve they should dislike both as but one onely My design was not to make a Dramatic Piece but to make my Actors speak truth This way of writing is easie to the meanest capacities and I am minded to imitate at least in the method that excellent Dialogue called the F.D. However if I can profit those that shall read me I little care whether I please them or not And now if it may be lawful for a Controvertist to moralize a little give me leave to tell thee Dear Reader that what I have written is not to engage thee into Disputes and Religious Quarrels I had rather thou shouldest read The whole Duty of Man and the excellent Discourse which that pious Author hath written against Disputes in his Decay of Christian Piety than this Book of mine By discovering the foul stains of those Religions that make shew of a fair and specious outside my design is not to teach thee how to rail at them or wrangle with their followers But to make thee love and obey that holy Religion which is taught in the Church of England and which promiseth rewards to her followers not for hating those that are of different Persuasions but for obeying the Precepts of Christ If thou art an ill liver no matter what Religion thou art of thy recompence shall be according to thy Works if not thy Creed and a Good Life will do thy soul more good than much Knowledge and Activity in what concerns the Differences among Christians in points of Religion And if thou dost ask me why therefore I should meddle with them and not be wholly employed in the performance of good Works I answer somewhat like as Aphraates did Valens when he came into Antioch to oppose himself to the then prevailing Error of Arius and the Emperor askt him why he had left his Religious Retirement to come into the City Niceph. l. 11. c. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. When the flock of Christ is in danger of being seduced it behoves me also to do my utmost endeavour for its Preservation And when my heavenly Fathers house is set on fire I will by all means endeavour to quench it and fling water upon it though it were but one drop Imprimatur Tho. Tomkyns Ex Aed Lambethanis Decemb. 13. 1675. Popery Manifested AND THE Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGUE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a
Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do not give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19.7 â— The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I don't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 4. We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. â— c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— 1 Joh. â— 1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Word to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till tomorrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for Liberty and Reformation But you may satisfie your self fully in their Books As for our Religion It was
where it had been above a thousand years in the Holy Scripture And suppose what is utterly false that soon after its being written all Christian Churches had been so corrupted as to own fifteen hundred years together those Errors which now are amongst you yet still the Scripture had been the same as much to be obeyed and followed as if it had always been so 2 King 22. When Josiah had found the Book of the Law he did not fling it by because it had been hid and neglected during the reign of Manasseh and Amon his Fathers but he caused it to be read before all the people Ibid. 23. that they might observe what was conteined in it So now we have the Holy Scriptures read and preached to us we must not reject them to follow the Customs of some of our Fore-Fathers in whose time they were hid and disregarded for they are as much the Rule of Faith as if they had never been disown'd But I say farther that our Religion was in those Churches in the East and South which never own'd Popery and even amongst you our Religion was professed you believed all along those three Creeds which you and we do still retein which contein the Articles of our Faith but not the new additions which are particular to Rome The Popes universal Supremacy and his Infallibility Transubstantiation Worshipping of Images Purgatory Indulgences c. These are neither in Scripture nor in the first Councils nor in the Writings of the Antient Fathers not so much as in your Creeds an evident mark of their novelty but in the late Councils and Constitutions of the Popes We confess indeed that there is an universal Church out of which there is no salvation according to that known saying of S. Cyprian Deum non potest c. He can be none of Gods children who is not a son of the Church But that Church is the Christian not the Roman Church and to know which is the Christian Church or which is the purest of Christian Churches for they are all Christian in some measure that own Christ we must not consult humane Histories for they cannot inform us of that and if they could we must not build our faith upon mens report De Sacâ—a l. 2. c. 21. Bellarmin saith of humane Histories Faciunt tantum humanam fidem cui falsam subesse potest that they only beget a human saith which may be erroneous Wherefore in the Controversie betwixt us which is the purest Church we must not search old Records and Chronicles to see which was the oldest the most visible or the most large and flourishing Church that is not the Question and if it were still human Histories cannot be the ground of a Christian Faith but we must examin which agrees best with Holy Scripture which we all acknowledge to be the Word of God for no doubt the true Church wherein Salvation may be had is that which holds that Doctrin which God himself hath reveled to Mankind whatever her condition may have been in times past P. There may be something considerable in what you say but you Hereties have strange cunnings and subtilties to justifie your Opinions and yet still for all you have said you are no better than Rebels against your spiritual Sovereign you are Schismatics undutiful Children that have forsaken your Mother the Church The true and only Church wherein Salvation is to be obtein'd guided and governed by the Vicar of Christ upon earth our holy Father the Pope Vna est tantum Ecclesia sub regimine unius Christi in terris Vicarii Romani Pontific is Bellar. de Eccl. l 3. c. 2. But pray do not make such a tedious Discourse as you have just now G. Good Sir sometimes short Questions cannot be answered in few words I could propose one to you much like that as you put to me which I believe would take a great deal of your time to answer that is Where your particular Religion your sacrificing of the real and corporal body and bloud of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead your Worshipping Images and Saints and making them your Intercessors your Purgatory Indulgences c. Where was all that in the time of Christ and his Apostles Whereabout can it be found in Scripture or in the antient Creeds or in the four first General Councils or in the three or four first Centuries But I will not put you to so long and impossible a Task As for our forsaking the Communion of the Church of Rome we were absolutely bound and in a manner forc'd to do it because of the many errors which had crept and been brought into it by the Ignorance Pride Avarice and Ambition of the late Popes of Rome and their Partizans and which were confirm'd by your Church and defended with that violence that it was death to any man to speak in the least against them Now you know 't is a Rule agreed on of all sides that he is not guilty of Schism that separates but he that gives a just cause of Separation wherfore I retort the charge upon you of being Schismatics except you can prove by the Word of God those Doctrins of yours we have rejected to be Divine and Orthodox for we have left your Church upon this account that you had perverted the truth of God and added many false opinions to it which ye impos'd upon the people as if they had been Articles of Faith And we find it in Scripture Ro. 16.17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrin which ye have learned and avoid them 't is not said except it be the Church of Rome And in another place Gal. 1.8 Though we or an angel from heaven preach unto you beyond or over and above in the Greec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the vulgar praeterquam quod what we have preached let him be accursed the Pope himself you see is not excepted Again we have left the Communion of your Church because it was Schismatic itself in that it had forsaken the Doctrin taught and believed in the Primitive Church We have come out of Rome to return into the more antient and universal Church We have left the Pope to follow Christ and his Apostles and we have forsaken you no farther than you had forsaken the truth The antient Creeds the first Councils many good and Fundamental Doctrins we hold together in these we hold Communion with you We reject your Communion only in those new Doctrins which ye have superadded to the antient and divine Faith of Christians And so likewise we rebel not against the Pope only we set God above him I 'll still acknowledge him to be a Bishop and the Patriarch of the West and perhaps I had been civil enough never to have disputed his Infallibility and spiritual Sovereignty though I find nothing for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very
and are deceived Popery Manifested AND THE Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGVE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a Presbyterian Divine The Second Part. Pr. YOur Servant Sir I come to see how you do and to spend an hour with you according to my promise G. Sir you are very welcome I am glad to see you and I was very impatient of your coming as much to enjoy your good company my self as to procure it to this old acquaintance of mine who long'd for it as much as I did Pr. Ha I doubt you have too many such acquaintances I know the man and am sorry to see you should keep company with him an Enemy to Christ and Christian Religion Take heed Sir Antichrist is of a very seducing Spirit Pa. Oh how now Master you fall foul upon me already that 's a very coarse Complement to salute me with the odious name of Antichrist But I hope you are not in earnest for my part I am glad to see you and desire to shake hands with you if it will not defile the holiness of yours Pr. Avoid Satan I would not have so much as your shadow to touch me and I am sorry to polute mine eyes with the sight of such a foul object as you are no there ought to be no communication betwixt light and darkness Pa. That 's true too but I 'll warrant you you and I are much of a dye and I am not of so dark a colour as you think I dare say for all your great aversion to me your Religion and mine differ but a little or at least nothing so much as that of the Church of England which you think comes very near to ours I can make it appear that we of Rome are agreed in many things with the English Presbyterians wherein we greatly differ from other Protestants come my good Friend let you and I dispute the case a little you shall find that I 'll give you great satisfaction in it Pr. These be impertinent brags and paradoxes I need no satisfaction in the case I am sure enough of the contrary There are no men under the Sun that hate and abhor Popery so much as we do therefore you may spare your labour and keep your breath for a better use G. Pray Sir don't shrink or else you 'll give him occasion to insult and me to be doubtful Sure after having been these twenty years set about the extirpation of Popery you are not afraid of being now prov'd a Papist Come make him repent of his bold challenge and make it appear that your practice and opinions are as averse to Rome as your words and clamors have been P. Yet still I stand upon my first ground you come very near to the Church of Rome in many things wherein you differ from the Church of England even in those things that are counted the worst of our errours Pr. I shall quickly confute your false and daring Assertion And first your Church doth greatly derogate from the Word of God and makes it inferiour to her Traditions and the Determinations of her Popes and Councils Can you charge us with any such thing Pa. Yes that I can You do greatly undervalue the same Divine Word to set up your Sermons the higher you perswade your people that that is the only Preaching and the true and only Word of God which you deliver out of your Pulpits so that your own Discourses are more attended and more regarded than the Bible it self And so prevalent is this opinion that those of your sort that go to the Parish Churches defer to go in while the Psalms the Chapters and the Epistle and Gospel are reading as if these were not worth the hearing But what is of the mans own making they will listen to attentively and perhaps write it down and repeat it with a great deal of Devotion Gods Word is but a Woodden Dagger with you it doth not reach the heart but the worst Sermon in your Conventicles pierceth the very soul and makes the people sigh and groan and take on most pitifully the powerfulness of Preaching indangers the very heart-strings And so current 't is amongst you that your Preaching is the Word of God that 't is call'd by the name of The Gospel and to hear it is made a Mark of Election So Mr. Jeremiah Burroughs told the Parliament Serm. Print 1. 645. p. 2. When I consider this place Westminster the extraordinary hand of God in bringing the Gospel to be preacht to you here in power those thoughts presently arise there is hope that there are many souls here belonging to Gods Election surely many will come in and imbrace the Gospel here And by the transcribing those sacred Oracles men were to judge of the condition their souls were in Thomas Palmer in a Sermon of his tells the people 1644. p. 28. That to hear Sermons and not write them is like taking water in a Sieve You keep a shop-Shop-Book saith he O be perswaded to keep a soul-Soul-Book that you may know how your Spiritual Estate stands belike those that had much written had very rich souls what increase or decrease of Grace you make this recording of revealed Truths and Soul-experiences from God would be of admirable use in time of trouble This is the difference in the case we undervalue Scripture that we may heed the more the Decrees of our Pope and you that you may the better attend to the dictates of every one of your Sermonizers Pr. I know all you can alledge will come short of what you would prove therefore I don't intend to trouble my self with answering your impertinencies it would but make our Discourse too tedious let this Gentleman be judge betwixt you and I who are in tâ—e right Pa. That will be very well I 'll follow your example and endeavour to shorten our Dialogue by pleading guilty tâ— every Article Charge our Religion with what you will I 'll deny nothing but shew you your â—wn face in that Mirrour you shall reach to me Come proceed Pr. In your publick Worship you use an unknown Tongue which the people doth not understand and thereby you keep them in ignorance that they may not be able to discern the errours of your Religion I am sure you can tax us with no such thing for we make all things plain to our hearers and they are an understanding and a knowing people who have more light in spiritual matters than any people whatsoever Pa. You do but fancy so they are as ignorant as any of us and they understand as little what you say though you speak English yet you speak an unknown Language to the people for you have so spiritualiz'd Religion that you have made riddles and mysteries of the plainest of its Doctrines it all consists in new-coin'd phrases and spiritual notions and fancies and secrets Pray hear what Mr. Francis Cheynell preacht before the Parliament Serm. 1646. p. 2.
make more Saints Oh it will be a comfortable work to gather and order Saints of our own making Nay though some of the Saints were froward and perchance unruly yet because they helpt to do the work of the Lord they were not to be blotted out of the Calendar for he saith a little before Saints must not be persecuted though they be peevish nay desperate I must not out of a sullen humour deny a peevish Saint the right-hand of fellowship But enough of this you shall find scattered up and down this Book Now as for your keeping of days for the old Saints I confess you are not for that neither do you keep any for Christ that would be you know what But you know also that when the designs of the new Saints were blest with success there was by Authority a day kept in remembrance of it with much solemnity So it seems the destroying of the Kings Forces was a mercy great enough to make a Holy-day of it but it would be Idolatry to do the same in remembrance of those precious mercies the Church receives from what Christ did and suffered for her and his holy Apostles after him As for praying to the ancient and despised Saints it would be to no purpose your new ones having got their place and belike their power too we have seen already that your prayers are effectual beyond what their intercessions could be which is the reason I suppose that when any amongst you is going a Journey or hath some other design in hand or feels the want of any temporal or spiritual thing he desires the prayers of the Saints in your Conventicles So there appears to me no other difference in the case but that our Saints are dead and Canonized by the Pope whereas yours for the most part are alive and of your own making Now I hope I have satisfied you and made it appear that you come much nearer to Popery than the Church of England which by your own confession hath nothing common with us that 's bad but a few Ceremonies and this of order which don't much concern Religion and which according to your Chronology were in the Christian Church long before Popery whereas you own both in belief and practice many of the Popish Doctrines which are counted the worst of our errours only you disguise them a little and put them in a Presbyterian Garb. Pr. Worthy Sir you might have spar'd your great pains for all you have said will not perswade any one man that we have any good will for the Papists 't is too well known that there is an irreconcileable antipathy betwixt them and us No we detest those opinions and practices of yours which you would perswade the world we approve and imitate and we agree with you in nothing that other Protestants disagree in Pa. Yes we do we both hate the Church of England I am sure we are agreed in that except you have gone beyond us as I remember Mr. Love said when there was an overture for peace pag. 42. At Uxbridge Is it likely to have peace with such men as these We can as soon make fire and water to agree I had almost said reconcile Heaven and Earth But there is enough said already to prove that As for your disclaiming friendship with us it only perswades me that you are of those generous Friends who oblige people behind their backs without desiring that any notice should be taken of it for to use Mr. Loves words pag. 22. When â—ou had put down the Pests and Plague-sores of the Kingdom Episcopacy and Common-Prayer Books you thereby advanced our interest greatly and did us a notable piece of service for then you left no visible Church no known Rules of Doctrines no set form of Government and Discipline so that whilst your tedious Rabbies were hammering in their brains the new form of a future Church according to their several fancies or according to the Pattern in the Mount the people were fain to betake themselves some to the Communion of our Church as not a few did and other some to Madness and Enthusiasm as did a great many more And besides the scandal which you brought upon the first Reformation by your fine doings was so great that thanks be to you it hath perswaded a great many that there is no safety but in the Church of Rome where there is a constant union and order So we find a Book printed in 1652. call'd A Beacon set on fire or an Information of the Stationers to the Parliament concerning the great advancement the Papists made and the many Books they printed as also the many blasphemous Books which others put out And in the seasonable Exhortation of the London Ministers 1660. they tell us pag. 10. That all manner of blasphemous and horrid Opinions were openly written and published that there was in many Atheism and contempt of Religion in others Scepticism and Irresolution in many and that some were grown to that heigth of wickedness as to worship the Devil himself And there they complain also That some by their back-sliding and apostacy fell from the truth to Popery as being the only Religion wherein unity and order was retained All which how naturally they issued from your late doings and how much the Pope and Devil were beholding to you for I leave to your own conscienciousness to consider And one thing more that makes me believe that you have more kindness for us than you own by words is that you destroy'd the King and the Church of England by the same means that were appointed by Campanella a cunning Politician and a great Enemy to Protestants pag. 160. The English Bishops it should have been Puritans are to be exasperated and put into fears and jealousies by telling them that the King of Scotland King James turned Protestant out of hope but that he will quickly return to the former Religion when he is establisht in the English Throne The same advice is also lately given by the Marquiss de C. in his Politique de France in that Chapter that treats of England That counsel was followed by you and prov'd successful the outcry whereby you rais'd the people against our late martyr'd Sovereign was Popery Rome Babylon therefore after all this judge you whether we must not be very ungrateful if we did not ingenuously acknowledge that we are highly beholding to you Pr. All that signifies nothing for we differ from the Church of England only in some few Ceremonies being agreed as to the Essentials both of Doctrine and Discipline We honour the first Reformators of this Church and we are perfectly agreed with the reformed Churches beyond Sea which we love and reverence and desire to imitate and when you have said all you can this will be truth still and I am sure will be believ'd so to be by all rational men Pa. I know that one of your Brethren an ancient Sophister in his last scribbling against Doctor