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book_n	author_n	read_v	write_v	2,323	5	5.1781	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88232	The picture of the Councel of State, held forth to the free people of England by Lievt. Col. John Lilburn, Mr Thomas Prince, and Mr Richard Overton, now prisoners in the Tower of London. Or, a full narrative of the late extra-judicial and military proceedings against them. Together with the substance of their several examinations, answers and deportments before them at Darby house, upon the 28. of March last.	Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657.; Prince, Thomas.; Overton, Richard, fl. 1646.	1649 (1649)	Wing L2154; Thomason E550_14; ESTC R204431	45,344	56

against us and after they were turned out I was called in next and the dore being opened I marched into the Room with my hat on and looking about me I saw divers Members of the House of Commons present and so I put it off and by Sergeant Dendy I was directed to go neer M. Bradshaw that sate as if he had bin Chairman to the Gentlemen that were there present between whom and my self past to this following effect Lieut. Col. Lilburn said he here are some Votes of Parliament that I am commanded by this Councel to acquaint you with which were accordingly read and which did contain the late published and printed Proclamation or Declaration against the second Part of Englands New Chains discovered with divers instructions and an unlimitted power given unto the Councel of State to find out the Authors and Promoters thereof After the reading of which M. Bradshaw said unto me Sir You have heard what hath bin read unto you and this Councel having information that you have a principal hand in compiling and promoting this Book shewing me the Book it self therefore they have sent for you and are willing to hear you speak for your self Well then M. Bradshaw said I If it please you and these Gentlemen to afford me the same liberty and priviledge that the Cavaliers did at Oxford when I was arraigned before them for my li●●… for levying War in the quarrel of the Common-wealth against the late King and his Party which was liberty of speech to speak my mind freely without interruption I shall speak and go on but without the Grant of liberty of speech I shall not say a word more to you To which he replyed That is already granted you and therefore you may go on to speak what you can or will say for your self if you please or if you will not you may hold your peace and with draw Well then said I M. Bradshaw with your favour thus I am an Englishman born bred and brought up and England is a Nation Governed Bounded and Limitted by Laws and Liberties and for the Liberties of England I have both fought and suffered much but truly Sir I judge it now infinitely below me and the glory and excellency of my late actions now to plead merit or desert unto you as though I were forced to fly to the merit of my former actions to lay in a counter-scale to weigh down your indignation against me for my pretended late offences No Sir I scorn it I abhor it And therefore Sir I now stand before you upon the bare naked and single account of an Englishman as though I had never said done or acted any thing that tended to the preservation of the Liberties thereof but yet have never done any act that did put me out of a Legal capacity to claim the utmost punctilio benefit and priviledge that the Laws and Liberties of England will afford to any of you here present or any other man in the whole Nation And the Laws and Liberties of England are my inheritance and birth-right And in your late Declaration published about four or five daies ago wherein you lay down the grounds and reasons as I remember of your doing Justice upon the late King and why you have abolished Kingly Government and the House of Lords you declare in effect the same and promise to maintain the Laws of England in reference to the Peoples Liberties and Freedoms And amongst other things therein contained you highly commend and extol the Petition of Right made in the third yeer of the late King as one of the most excellent and gloriest Laws in reference to the Peoples Liberties that ever was made in this Nation and you there very much blame and cry out upon the King for robing and denying the people of England the benefit of that Law and sure I am for I have read and studied it there is one clause in it that saith expresly That no Free-man of England ought to be adjudged for life limb liberty or estate but by the Laws already in being established and declared And truly Sir if this be good and found Legal Doctrine as undoubtedly it is or else your own Declarations are false and lyes I wonder what you Gentlemen are For the declared and known Laws of England knows you not neither by names nor qualifications as persons endowed with any power either to imprison or try me or the meanest Free-man of England And truly were it not that I know the faces of divers of you and honour the persons of some of you as Members of the House of Commons that have stood pretty firm in shaking times to the Interest of the Nation I should wonder what you are or before whom I am and should not in the least honor or reverence you so much as with Civil Respect especially considering the manner of my being brought before you with armed men and the manner of your close sitting contrary to all Courts of Justice M. Bradshaw it may be the House of Commons hath past some Votes or Orders to authorise you to sit here for such and such ends as in their Orders may be declared But that they have made any such Votes or Orders is legally unknown to me I never saw them It s true by common Fame you are bruted abroad and stiled a Councel of State but its possible common Fame in this particular may as well tell me a ly as a truth But admit common Fame do in this tell me a truth and no ly but that the House of Commons in good earnest have made you a Councel of State yet I know not what that is because the Law of England tells me nothing of such a thing and surely if a Councel of State were a Court of Justice the Law would speak somthing of it But I have read both old and new Laws yea all of late that it was possible to buy or hear of and they tell me not one word of you and therefore I scarce know what to make of you or what to think of you but as Gentlemen that I know I give you civil respect and out of no other consideration But if you judge your selves to be a Councel of State and by vertue thereof think you have any power over me I pray you shew me your Commission that I may know the better how to behave my self before you M. Bradshaw I will not now question or dispute the Votes or Orders of the present single House of Commons in reference to their power as binding Laws to the people yet admit them to be valid legal and good their due circumstances accompanying them yet Sir by the Law of England let me tell you what the House Votes Orders and Enacts within their walls is nothing to me I am not at all bound by them nor in Law can take any cognisance of them as Laws although 20. Members come out of the House and tell me such things are done till they

Time as after the language of their new fangled Saint-ships I may speak it they have brought their seasons to perfection even to the Season of Seasons now to rest themselves in the large and full enjoyment of the creature for a time two times and half a time resolving now to ware out the true asserters of the peoples freedom and to change the time and laws to their exorbitant ambition and will while all their promises declarations and engagements to the people must be null'd and made Cyphers and cast aside as wast paper as unworthy the fulfilment or once the remembrance of those Gentlemen those magnificent stems of our new upstart Nobillity for now it is not with them as in the dayes of their engagement at New-market and Tripl●e heath but as it was in the days of old with corrupt persons so is it in ours Tempora mutantur But to proceed to the story the Lievtenant Collonel did not only shew his weakness or rather his iniquity in his dealing with me but he converts the aforesaid Souldier of Leivtenant Generalls Regiment before divers of the Officers at White-hall and there he renders the reason wherefore he made him a prisoner because said he he takes Overtons part for he came and asked him how he did and bid him be of good comfort and he lay last night with a woman To which he answered It is true but the woman was my wife then they proceeded to ask when they were married and how they should know shee was his wife and he told them where and when but that was not enough they told him he must get a Certificate from his Captain that he was married to her and then he should have his liberty Friends and Country-men where are you now what shall you do that have no Captains to give you Certificates sure you must have the banes of Matrimony re-asked at the Conventicle of Gallants at White-hall or at least you must thence have a Congregationall Licence without offence be it spoken to true Churches to lye with your wives else how shall your wives be chast or the children Legitimate they have now taken Cognizance over your wives and beds whether will they next Judgement is now come into the hand of the armed-fury Saints My Masters have a care what you do or how you look upon your wives for the new-Saints Millitant are paramount all Laws King Parliament husbands wives beds c. But to let that passe Towards the evening we were sent for to go before the Counsell of State at Darby-house and after Lievtenant Collonel John Lilburne and Mr. Wallwine had been before them then I was called in and Mr. Bradshaw spake to me to this effect Master Overton the Parliament hath seen a Book Intituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered and hath past several Votes thereupon and hath given Order to the Councel to make inquiry after the Authors and Publishers thereof and proceed upon them as they see Cause and to make a return thereof unto the House And thereupon he Commanded Mr. Frost their Secretary to read over the said Votes unto me which were to this purpose as hath since been publickly proclaimed Die Martis 27 Martis 1649. THe House being informed of a Scandalous and Seditius Book Printed entituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered The said Book was this day read REsolved upon the Question by the Commons assembled in Parliament That this printed Paper entituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered c. doth cont●in most false scandalous and reproachful matter and is highly Seditious and Destructive to the present Government as it is now Declared and setled by Parliament tends to Division and Mutiny in the Army and the raising of a New War in the Common-wealth and to hinder the present Relief of Ireland and to the continuing of Free-Quarter And this House doth further Declare That the Authors Contrivers and Framers of the said Papers are guilty of High Treason and shall be proceeded against as Traytors And that all Persons whatsover that shall joyn with or adhere unto and hereafter voluntarily Ayd or Assist the Authors Framers and Contrivers of the aforesaid Paper in the prosecution thereof shall be esteemed as Traytors to the Common-wealth and be proceeded against accordingly Then Mr. Bradshaw spake to me much after this effect Master Overton this Councel having received Information That you had a hand in the Contriving and Publishing of this Book sent for you by their Warrant to come before them Besides they are informed of other Circumstances at your Apprehension against you That there were divers of the Books found about you Now Mr. Overton if you will make any Answer thereunto you have your Liberty To which I answered in these words or to the like effect Sir what Title to give you or distinguish you by I know not Indeed I confesse I have heard by common report that you go under the name of a Councel of State but for my part what you are I cannot well tell but this I know that had you as you pretend a just authority from the Parliament yet were not your Authority valuable or binding till solemnly proclaimed to the people so that for my part in regard you were pleased thus violently to bring me before you I shall humbly crave at your hands the production of your Authority that I may know what it is for my better information how to demean my self Presid Mr. Overton We are satisfied in our Authority Ric. Overt Sir if I may not know it however I humbly desire that I may be delivered from under the force of the Military power for having a naturall and legall title to the Rights of an Englishman I shall desire that I may have the benefit of the Law of England which Law taketh no cognizance of the Sword And in case you or any man pretend matter of crime against me in order to a tryall I desire I may be resigned up to the Civil Magistrate and recceive a free and legall tryall in some ordinary Court of Justice according to the known Law of the Land that if I be found a transgressor of any established declared Law of England on Gods name let me suffer the penalty of that Law Further Sir In case I must still be detained a prisoner it is my earnest desire that I may be disposed to some prison under the jurisdiction and custody of the Civill Authority For as for my own part I cannot in conscience to the common right of the people submit my self in any wise to the tryall or custody of the Sword for I am no Souldier neither hath the Army any Authoritie over me I owe them neither dutie nor obedience they are no Sheriffs Justices Bailiff Constables or other Civil Magistrates So that I cannot neither will I submit unto their power but must take the boldnesse to protest against it Presid Mr. Overton If this be your Answer you may withdraw

before that Law be in being a it is impossible to offend that which is not Where there is no Law there is no Transgression Now those Votes on which you proceed against me are but of yesterdaies being so that had I an hand in that Book whereof you accuse me provided it were before those Votes you cannot render me guiltie by those Votes If I had done any thing in it since the Votes provided you had solemnly proclaimed the same then you might have had some colour to have proceeded against me but I have but newly heard the Votes and since that you know I could do nothing Presid Mr. Overton I would correct your judgment in one thing We are not upon any Triall of you we are onely upon the discharge of our dutie and that trust committed unto us by the Parliament to make enquiry after the authors contrivers and framers of the Books and having information against your self and your Comrades we sent for you and are to return your Answer to the House howsoever you dispute their Authority R. Overt Dispute their Authoritie Sir I That 's but your supposition and supposition is no proof And Sir as you say you are to discharge your dutie so must I discharge mine And as for matter of triall I am sure you taxe me in a criminall way and proceed to question me thereupon But Sir I conceive it my dutie to answer to none of your Questions in that nature and therefore shall utterly refuse Now Gentlemen I desire you to take notice that I do not oppose you as you are members of the Common-wealth for it is well known and I think to some here that I have ever been an opposer of oppression and tyrannie even from the daies of the Bishops to this present time and the † viz. Arraignment of Persecution Ordinance of Tythes Dismounted The Game at Scotch and English c. Books that I have writ and published do in some measure bear witness thereof and it is well known that my practice hath ever been answerable thereunto I suppose no man can accuse me but that I have opposed Tyrannie where-ever I found it It is all one to me under what name or title soever oppression be exercised whether under the name of King Parliament Councel of State under the name of this or that or any thing else For tyrannie and oppression is tyrannie and oppression to me where-ever I finde it and where-ever I finde it I shall oppose it without respect of persons I know I am mortall and finite and by the course of nature my daies must have a period how soon I know not and the most you can do it is but to proceed to life and for my part I had rather die in the just vindication of the cause of the poor oppressed people of this Common-wealth then to die in my bed and the sooner it is the welcomer I care not if it were at this instant for I value not what you can doe unto me But Gentlemen I humbly desire yet a word or two I confesse I did not expect so much civilitie at your hands as I have found and for the same I return you hearty thanks Now whereas you commonly say That we will have no Bottom center no where and do taxe us by the Votes you read unto me of destruction to the present Government division and mutinie in the Armie c. But here I do professe unto you as in the presence of the all-seeing God before whom one day I must give an account of all my actions That in case you will but conclude upon an equall and just Government by way of an Agreement of the People as was honourably begun by the Generall Officers of the Army and but free that Article in it which concerns the liberty of Gods Worship from the vexatious entanglements and contradictions that are in it that so consciencious people might freely without any fear of an insulting Clergie live quietly and peaceably in the enjoyment of their consciences As also to add unto it a Barr against Regalitie and the House of Lords As also to make provision in it against the most weighty oppressions of the Land that thereby they may be utterly removed and for the future prevented and the people setled in freedom and safetie And then for my part neither hand foot pen tongue mouth or breath of mine shall move against you but I shall with my utmost power with hand heart life and bloud assist you in the prosecution thereof and therein center Try me and if I fail of my word then let me suffer Presid Mr. Overton If you have no more to say you may withdraw R. Overt Sir I humbly crave the further addition of a word or two Gentlemen I desire as I did before that I may according to the common right of the people of England be forthwith freed from under the power of the Sword and be delivered into the hands of the Civil Magistrate in case I shall be still detained a prisoner for I am so much against the intrusion of the Military power into the feat of the Magistrate that I had rather you would fetter me legs and hands and tie me neck and heels together and throw me into a Dungeon and not allow me so much as the benefit of bread and water till I be starved to death then I would accept of the best Down-bed in England with sutable accommodation under the custody of the Sword President Mr. Overton I would correct your Judgment a litle you are not under the Military power but under the Civil authority for by the Authority of Parliament this Counsel by their Warrant hath sent for you R. Overton Sir it is confest that pro forma tantum for matter of Forme inke or paper I am under the Civil Authoritie but essentiallie and reallie I am under the Martial power for that Warrant by which I was taken was executed upon me by the Military power by a Partie of Horse and divers Companies of Foot in Arms and in that Hostile manner like a prisoner of War I was led Captive to White-hal and there ever since till commanded hither I was kept amongst the Souldiers and I am still under the same force Besides Sir these men are meer Souldiers no Officers of the Magistracie of England they brought no Warrant to me from anie Justice of Peace neither did carrie me before anie Justice of Peace but seised on me and kept me by their own force Therefore it is evident and cleer to me That I am not under the Civil but the Martial power President Master Overton If this be your Answer you may with-draw R. Overton Sir I have said And so I was conducted to the Room where they had disposed Lievtenant Col. Lilburne and Mr. Walwine And the next news we heard from them was of our Commitment to the Tower and Master Prince and I were joyned as yoak-fellows in one Warrant a Copie whereof is

this effect Lieut. Colonel Lilburn This Councel hath considered what you have said and what they have bin informed of concerning you and also of that duty that lies upon them by the command of the House which enjoyns them to improve their utmost ability to find out the Author of this Book and therefore to effect that end they judge themselves bound to demand of you this question Whether you made not this Book or were privie to the making of it or no And after some pause and vvondering at the strangeness of the question I answered and said M. Bradshaw I cannot but stand amazed that you should ask me such a question as this at this time of the day considering what you said unto me at my first being before you and considering it is now about eight yeers ago since this very Parliament annihilated the Court of Star-chamber Councel bord and High Commission and that for such proceedings as these * See the Acts that abolished them made in the 16. C. R. printed in my Book called The peoples Prerogatiue p. And truly Sir I have bin a contestor and sufferer for the Liberties of England these twelve yeers together and I should novv look upon my self as the basest fellovv in the vvorld if novv in one moment I should undo all that I have bin doing all this vvhile vvhich I must of necessity do if I should ansvver you to questions against my self For in the first place by ansvvering this question against my self I should betray the Liberties of England in acknovvledging you to have a Legal Jurisdiction over me to try and adjudge me which I have already proved to your faces you have not in the least and if you have forgot what you said to me thereupon yet I have not forgot what I said to you And secondly Sir if I should answer to questions against my self and so betray my self I should do that which not onely Law but Nature abhors And therefore I cannot but wonder that you your selves are not ashamed to demand so illegal and unworthy a thing * And well might I for M. John Cook and M. Bradshaw himself were my Counsel at the Lords Bar against the Star-Chamber the 13. of Feb. 1645. where M. Bradshaw did most excellently open the Star-chamber injustice towards me and at the reading of their first sentence he observed to the Lords that that sentence was felo de se guilty of its own death the ground whereof being because M. Lilburn refused to take an oath to answer to all such questions as should be demanded of him it being contrary to the Laws of God Nature and the Kingdom for any man to be his own Accuser Whose words you may more at large read in the Printed relation thereof drawn up by M. John Cook and my self p. 3. of me as this is And therefore in short were it that I owned your power which I do not in the least I would be hanged before I would do so base and un-Englishman-like an Action to betray my Liberty which I must of necessity do in answering questions to accuse my self But Sir This I will say to you my late Actions have not bin done in a hole or a corner but on the house top in the face of the Sun before hundreds and some thousands of people and therefore why ask you me any questions Go to those that have heard me and seen me and it is possible you may find some hundreds of witnesses to tell you what I have said and done for I hate holes and corners My late Actions need no covers nor hidings they have bin more honest than so and I am not sorry for what I have done for I did look well about me before I did what I did and I am ready to lay down my life to justifie what I have done and so much in answer to your question But now Sir with your favour one word more to mind you again of what I said before in reference to my Martial imprisonment and truly Sir I must tell you Circumstantials of my Liberty at this time I shall not much dispute but for the Essentials of them I shall dy I am now in the Souldiers custody where to continue in silence and patience is absolutely to betray my Liberty for they have nothing to do with me nor the meanest Free-man of England in this case and besides Sir they have no rules to walk by but their wills and their swords which are two dangerous things it may be I may be of an hasty cholerick temper and not able nor willing to bear their affronts and peradventure they may be as willing to put them upon me as I am unwilling to bear them and for you in this case to put fire and tinder together to burn up one an other will not be much commendable nor tend much to the accomplishment of your ends But if for all this you shall send me back to the Military sword again either to White-hall or any other such like garison'd place in England I do solemnly protest before the Eternal God of Heaven and Earth I will fire it and burn it down to the ground if possibly I can although I be burnt to ashes with the flames thereof for Sir I say again the souldiers have nothing to do to be my Goalers and besides it is a maxime among the souldiers That they must obey without dispute all the Commands of their Officers be they right or wrong and it is also the maxime amongst the Officers That if they do not do it they must hang for it therefore if the Officers command them to cut my throat they must either do it or hang for it And truly Sir looking vvishfully upon Cromwell that sate just against me I must be plain with you I have not found so much Honour Honesty Justice or Conscience in any of the principal Officers of the Army as to trust my life under their protection or to think it can be * And truly I am more than afraid honest Capt. Bray hath too much experience of this at Windsor Castle who though he be but barely committed thither into safe custody yet as I from very good hands am informed the Tyrannical Governour Whichcock Cromwels creature doth keep him close prisoner denying him the benefit of the Castle Ayre keeping not onely pen and inke from him but also his friends and necessaries with which cruelty c. he hath already almost murdered and destroyed the honest man in whose place were I and so illegally and unjustly used a flame if possibly I could should be the portion of my chamber although I perished in it safe under their immediate fingers and therefore not knowing nor very much caring what you will do with me I earnestly intreat you if you will again imprison me send me to a Civil Goal that the Law knows as Newgate the Fleet or the Gate-house and although you send me to a Dungeon thither I