had any Prisons in which to keep men against their will and every man were noâ— free to leave us when he pleases as I suppose few would stay who should find themselves so deluded 'T is likely you may know some pray enquire of them whether they have more obtruded on them after they came to us than they were made acquainted with before Here is that Authors affirmation and my denyal believe neither of us but satisfie your self of those who can speak of their own knowledge N. I am glad to perceive the breach is not altogether so wide as some imagine but yet there is one reason which makes me despair of any good And that is because you are and must be always Enemies to the State Believe me our Church will no more harbor Traytors than Hippocrites P. Enemies to the state and Traitors God forbid N. Be not offended at the harshness of my Language which I use not for malice but to speak properly and call things by their own names 'T is not tâ—at I charge you with actual Treason but with Doctrines which wiâ—l make you traytors when ever they be put in practise And in my opinion there is not much difference betwixt an actual Traytor and one who is ready to be so as soon as there is occasion P. Truely I think there is not F. If you think so I do not see how you can be excused That power which the Pope claims to depose Kings and dâ—â—pose of Kingdoms is so destructive to the safety of Princes and qâ—iet of Kingdoms that you must needs see you cannot be good Subjects while you believe it Neither can you be Papists if you believe it not The Pope will no more endure you not to hold it than States can be safe where you do P. This is a Topick which never fails when any one has a mind to declaim against Papists It has been often objecteâ— and as often answered Since you oblige me to speak of it let me tell you you are wonderfully out in your apprehension of things If the Pope should break wâ—th all who believe noâ— that Power in him he would quickly have but a thin Communion I am yet to learn the naâ—e and situation of that Counâ—ry which belieâ—es it F. How of that Country As if it were not beleev'd in all Countrys of your Communion And that we may not doubt of it Bellarmine against Barclay produces writers of all Countrys who maintain it I think he musters them up to 72 but sure they are not like the Disciples butonly in number P. Bellarmine had undertaken to maintain that position and makes as good a shew as he can From the beginning of the world or rather from Gregory 7th who is his first man he has found out the number you mention and others cite twice as many agâ—â—nst â—iâ— some the very same alledgâ—d by him How pertinâ—ntly on either sidâ— we cannot now examine But I never thâ—â—â—ht of denying those Doctrines may be found in Books I deny there is any Nation to be found which believe them Authors mâ—y â—â—ite and yet find few who give credit to what they say If we would know what people believe we must consider what they do not what Scholars write For let them write upon what motives they will people certainly act according as they are perswaded Now to come to particulars there are few Nations where the Neighbourhood gave opportunity but have at some time or other been at open enmity with the Pope The Spaniards who are thought the most devoted to him have taken hâ—m Prisoner The Dâ—ke of Atva himself commanded an Army against him and forc'd him to his terms of Peace The Venetians not to mention other breaches were so resolute in their contest with Paul 5th that it came to an Interdict And they neither obeyed it nor would be brought by any sollicitation of powerful Mediators to accept of absolution Other Princes of Italy have been at wars with him and that lately in the times of Vrban the 8 h. and Innocent the 10th Of the French we shall speak by and by but these have had as many and as great contrasts with him as any other Which of all these Princes has been deserted by his Subjects or found them less ready to stand by them against the Pope than against anothâ—r man Had they indeed believed aright in the Pope to depâ—â—e Princes and dispose of Kingdoms they must needs taken his part and left their own Princes defenceless But you see no such thing has happened and may therefore certainly conclude they believe no such power The pretence of it may be sometimes used to colour an unjustifiable action when people can get no better but I am confident there is no Prince or people in the world who truely believe it F. Truely I know not what to say to you what you alledge is manifest and knoâ—n to the world though I did not reflâ—ct on it before But how comes it that Doctrines so little believ'd are so openly maintain'd and so maintain'd that they are alltogether in vogue and the contrary hardly find maintainers P. The contrary Doctrine never wants maintainers when there is occasion neither are they the less numerous or the less considerable for making the less noise whereof the reason is the eagerness with which the Pope espouses an opinion so favourable to him which hinders us from being willing to do any thing which we think he would take ill And so we let people talk as they please till there be a necessity of declaring plainly what we think And then it plainly appears that the sence of the world is very different from the thoughts of those writers how much soever they be cryed up Neither are the maintainers even among writers so few as you imagine I am sure in our Nation there have been more Catholick Writers against it than for it Thirteen eminent men subscribed a loyal profession to Queen Elizabeth even alter the Bull of Pius the 5th came oâ—t to whom sayes Widdrington thrice thirteen would willingly have been added had they not been prevented by the sudden publication of that profession And when Campian Sherwin and some others gave evasions instead of answers to the Questions about the Power of the Pope and Queen one Iohn Bishop a man devoted to the See of Rome says Mr. Cambden wrote against them and foundly proved that that constitution of the Lateran Council obtruded under that name upon which the whole authority of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance and deposing Princes is founded is no other than a Decree of Pope Innocent the 3d. and was never admitted in England Yea that the said Council was no Council at all nor was any thing at all there decreed by the Fathers F. But why do Princes permit the course of such Doctrines which cannot but be dangerous if ever the people should come to be perswaded of them as if they go on uncheckt 't is like enough they
make England depend on the Pope and fift Monarchyst's to ruine the English Monarchy and Agitator and I know not what I suppose to shew he can quibble otherwise every body leâ—s if we could so easily and undiscoverably disguise our selves we were mad if we took not all the shape of Protestants and so avoided the danger of the Law without more ado For who should find us out if we could make all the woâ—ld believe we were Protestants Alas â— you know and we know too weâ—l that a Papist cannot long conceal his Religion If these be your shrewd stories your hate to us will let any thing pâ—ss I have not seen any thing that pretends to serious less significant and a body would have thought a Church-man should better know what belong to defaming our Neigebour thaâ— to expose the credit of a great many innocent men to scandal upon such no-grounds as he mentions F Nay Sir I declared before it was only out of curiosity I spoke of this matter For I ever thought it very od you should be lookt upon as friends to the King during all the times of confusion and for that reason be out of favour with all the several changes of Government and of a sudden be charged with Annuity to the King when he came in But I thank you for the information you have given us and avow frâ—ely to you I shall carry away apprehensions of you very different from what I brought in For indeed I thought the blind implicite obedience had involv'd you all into stupid and unsufferable errors and rendred you unfit not only for protection but even harbor amongst honest men But I perceive 't is with you as with the rest of the world where there are good and bad of all sorts And though I have no kindness for your Religion yet I will confess I begin to wish as well as you that the book which has occasioned all our discourse had not been written for methinks 't is hard to charge the follies of some without distinction upon aâ—â— P. I cannot tell what the design of the Author was 'T is in the number of unknowable secrets and we ought still to judge favourably of things we know not But his Book seems apt to stir animosities which if he judge seasonable I should think not so charitable Neither can I understand why the moderate share we had in the late Indulgence should occasion so much Zeal against us and none against others who were more largly indulged and are otherwise much and many ways more considerable Especially when I consider the Topies he uses your Religion says he is an excellent Religion and ours full of stupidity Be it so may we not therefore be Permitted to say our prayers in private Which is all the Indulgence allow'd us Sure t is no part of the goodness of your Church to hinder others from being as good as they can and the worse our Religion is the more need we have of praying to make us better Again let the Pope claim what power he pleases and that power be as inconvenient as that Gentleman pleases private prayer will not therefore be inconvenient or you receive any harm from what passes in private Against seditious Doctrines such as those are declared by Catholicks to be I hope the Laws takes Order and they are excepthd by the very declaration 'T is the name of Abby Lands and Vbby-Lubbers and the rest of the inconveniences he mentions private prayer certainly will never pray them in and were there any danger of them we should help you to our powers to keep them out His Topic of Auricular confession in my opinion might have been spared in respect to the Church of England which is far from disaproving such Confession And however every body must needs see that there are Nations who use it as careful of the honours of their Families every jot as the English and something more jealous An abuse may sometimes happen from which there is nothing so sacred that can always be free but good things are not to be taken away because t is possible they may be abused At worst I do not see that you are concern'd If we have a mind to prostitute our Wives and Daughters how are youthâ— less safe or which way endanger'd if we be all Whâ—res and Cuckolds We fell a laughing at that expression and that laughter broke of our discourse and soon after our company I parted as soon as I had payd our Coffee and I wish you may think your few pence as well bestow d on the Relation as I did mine to hear it FINIS
one day will P. As if I would give account of the counsâ—ls of Princes or should think it fit though I could I suppose they find it for their interest according to which wise Princes take tâ—eir measures and having many intrigues with the Pope judge it advantagious to please him with words which they see have little credit with the wise When there is any occasion of contest they know well enough that the wise will sway the rest It may be they have at some time or other made use of that pretence themselves or foresee some occasion wherein they may But neither is it true that those Dâ—ctrines go curranâ— evâ—ry where 'T is treason in France to Print or disperse or so mâ—â—h â—s keep the Books whâ—ch have been condemn'd for mainâ—â—â—ning 〈◊〉 â—nd his very Book of Bellarmins which you have 〈◊〉 jâ—st now is one Besides all theâ—r Univâ—siâ—ies have solemnly and particularly coâ—demned them as pernicious and â—ere â—abâ—â— coâ—trary to the word of God c. The Decrees botâ— of Parliament and Universities have been so often publisht that you must needs have seen them F. I must confess I have P. Why then you see thoâ—e Doctrâ—nes are not maintained every where nor any condition of Catholick Communion any where The Pope communicates freely with the French for all this and so does the rest of the world Which perhaps may be one reason why thâ—y are the less forward to condemn them in other places For they see â—hey can never paâ—s for Catholick so much as in the opinion of the people while so considerable a part of the Church so openly disavows them Wherefore reserving to themselves the liberty to do as they see fit upon occasion tâ—ey are willing to gratify the Pope in the mean time and let Scholars talk as they please F. But pray what do you think of those Doctrines your sâ—lâ— P. What should I think but that they are false and naught F. And why do you not then disclaim them P. You see I do F. I mean publickly P. Because it is to no purpose and I fear would look as odly as the request of the Cutpurse who went to the Constable and and would needs be set in the Pâ—lâ—ory by him where when the flockâ—ng multitude â—oâ—d gazing and laughing at the mans folly his Companions picâ—t all their pockets Shall I deal plainly with you 'T is you your sâ—â—ves who are the cause that theâ—e Doctrines are not renouncd ' oâ— whâ—ch you pretend such fear F. Weâ— who are perpetually pressing you to renounce them and thereâ—oâ—e deal the more unkindly with you because â—iâ—l you do it we cannot think you honest men P. And when we have given you satisfaction pray what more kindness would you or can you by Law shew us The Law makes no difference betwixâ— a Papist who renounces and a Papist who holds those Doctrines neither is there any Penalty from which that renunciation would exempt him On oâ—r side you know as well as we there are some who have more kâ—ndness for them then fitting It cannot otherwiâ—e be but these men will look very untowardly on any who by such a publick renunciation shall condemn their perswasions especially if he be neither obliged nor so much as invited to do it Some of them have been passionate and rash and will be apt to revenge themselves by clamors and harsh censures and peradventure cause intelligence to be given even at Rome where as they are very tender in this point and very impatient of anything which they conceive shocks their authority you may be sure they will do all that comes in their way to discountenance such a man and work his discredit and it may be discomfort On the other side you take no care to give him any manner of protection or so much as countenance but leave him to shift as well as he can for himself without any ease from the burthen to which he is otherwise subject As your heats aâ— present and often are very great against us none knowes but he may at last be turn'd a begging and be forc'd to seek relief in forreign Countrys wheâ—e Charity is like to be very cold to him against whom the Pope is incenst What ever people think in their hearts they will shew but little countenance to him against whom the Pope declares himself Who would gratify you upon these terms when a man is sure to live uncomfortably with those of his own Communion and receive no relief from you forwhose sake he runs into that incoâ—venience Aâ— you carry matters 't is hard to be imagined otherwise but â—hat whatever you say you are in truth unwilling those Doctrines should be renounc'd perhaps least you lose something to say aâ—ainst us Do buâ— provide that he who satisfies you in this particular and râ—nounceâ— those Doctrines as fully as you can desire be cherisht with some moderation and taken into the protection of the Laws and then be angry freely with those that refuse to do it Mâ—ke them Treason if you will hâ—re as they are in France foâ— any concern I have in them N. Mâ— thinks you do your self much wrong to keep these things conceal'd If every body knew as much as you have told us perhaps the heats of which you complain might cool and people be less incenst against you P. I tell you no secrets These things have been publish'd over and over and over again but no notâ—ce is taken of them This Author objects these Doctrines as freely as if nothing had ever been said to theâ— And yet considering how well he is acqâ—ainted with all sorts of books sure he must needs know we areas ready to renounce them as he isâ— forward to object them F. I must confess you speak like an honest man but yet you answer for no more then your self You may be and I believe are innocent but you cannot deny there are among you men of other principles And â—t would not be safe for the sake of a few good to cherish perhaps a great many bad N. Nay Sir I cannot agree with you there If you think it not safe to protect the bad in respect of the good I am sure it is not just to punish the Good for the faults of the Bad. We blâ—me them for holding these Doctrines What can we have more more of them than to renounce them Those who do this noâ—estly and fairly without tricks or starting holes what have we to say against them God forbid we should imitate the unreasonable severity of those Nations which when one man commits a fault punish â—oth him and all his relations though never so innocent 'T is no such hard matâ—er to discern which are fit for mercy and which not and I wish others may think so too and hope they will But though I am in this particular as I hope I always shall be a freind to Truth I must needs declare to you I am no freind to Popery When I