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book_n article_n church_n religion_n 1,793 5 5.7954 4 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A27112 Certamen religiosum, or, A conference between the late King of England and the late Lord Marquesse of Worcester concerning religion together with a vindication of the Protestant cause from the pretences of the Marquesse his last papers which the necessity of the King's affaires denyed him oportunity to answer. Bayly, Thomas, d. 1657? 1651 (1651) Wing B1507; ESTC R23673 451,978 466

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be_v the_o ibid._n custom_n then_o to_o call_v upon_o the_o holy_a angel_n for_o their_o patronage_n but_o to_o say_v as_o the_o marquesse_n do_v that_o it_o appear_v by_o these_o word_n that_o they_o use_v then_o to_o call_v upon_o the_o saint_n depart_v be_v contrary_a to_o the_o tenet_n of_o the_o romanist_n who_o hold_v that_o during_o the_o time_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n pray_v unto_o the_o decease_a saint_n be_v not_o in_o use_n because_o then_o the_o saint_n that_o depart_v out_o of_o this_o life_n as_o they_o hold_v do_v not_o go_v to_o heaven_n nor_o enjoy_v happiness_n but_o the_o truth_n be_v those_o word_n job_n 5._o 1._o call_v now_o etc._n etc._n and_o to_o which_o of_o the_o saint_n will_v thou_o turn_v make_v neither_o for_o the_o invocation_n of_o saint_n nor_o of_o angel_n the_o meaning_n of_o eliphaz_n be_v only_o to_o convince_v job_n that_o none_o be_v punish_v as_o he_o be_v except_o he_o be_v wicked_a and_o therefore_o he_o bid_v he_o show_v any_o of_o the_o saint_n if_o he_o can_v that_o be_v so_o punish_v as_o he_o be_v for_o this_o be_v the_o error_n of_o eliphaz_n and_o the_o other_o two_o friend_n of_o job_n that_o they_o think_v job_n can_v not_o be_v a_o godly_a man_n because_o god_n do_v so_o afflict_v he_o therefore_o god_n say_v his_o anger_n be_v kindle_v against_o they_o because_o they_o have_v not_o speak_v of_o he_o the_o thing_n that_o be_v right_a job._n 42._o 7._o for_o the_o father_n which_o be_v here_o object_v the_o first_o viz._n diony_n be_v cite_v cap._n 7_o but_o of_o what_o for_o he_o write_v diverse_a book_n but_o his_o testimony_n be_v of_o little_a worth_n it_o be_v uncertain_a who_o he_o be_v and_o when_o he_o live_v and_o this_o be_v evident_a to_o all_o that_o have_v any_o the_o least_o taste_n of_o he_o that_o he_o be_v not_o as_o be_v pretend_v that_o dionysius_n that_o be_v mention_v act_n 17._o 34._o which_o his_o fustian_n and_o bombast-stile_n do_v sufficient_o declare_v the_o next_o be_v athanasius_n but_o i_o find_v no_o such_o piece_n as_o ser._n de_fw-la annunt_fw-la either_o in_o his_o work_n as_o they_o be_v extant_a both_o in_o greek_a and_o latin_a nor_o in_o bellarmine_n index_n or_o catalogue_n of_o they_o which_o he_o have_v in_o his_o book_n of_o ecclesiastical_a writer_n if_o perhaps_o the_o marquesse_n mean_v 19_o ser_n de_fw-fr sanctissimâ_fw-la deiparâ_fw-la bellarmine_n in_o that_o same_o book_n censure_v it_o as_o not_o belong_v to_o athanasius_n but_o to_o some_o other_o long_o after_o his_o time_n and_o in_o some_o thing_n as_o it_o seem_v not_o very_a sound_n basil_n i_o have_v not_o to_o peruse_v nor_o maximus_n cit_fw-la chrysostome_n in_o the_o place_n quote_v viz._n hom._n 66._o de_fw-fr pop._n antioch_n do_v indeed_o seem_v to_o speak_v for_o pray_v unto_o saint_n to_o pray_v for_o we_o but_o we_o must_v remember_v how_o he_o be_v reckon_v among_o they_o who_o hold_v that_o the_o saint_n depart_v be_v not_o yet_o in_o glory_n and_o therefore_o if_o the_o romanist_n will_v have_v he_o speak_v agreable_o to_o this_o position_n they_o must_v not_o have_v he_o for_o a_o patron_n in_o this_o cause_n touch_v the_o invocation_n of_o saint_n and_o upon_o the_o same_o ground_n must_v they_o also_o let_v go_v bernard_n who_o be_v likewise_o note_v for_o the_o same_o opinion_n script_n though_o the_o truth_n be_v he_o live_v in_o very_o corrupt_a time_n and_o therefore_o it_o be_v no_o marvel_n if_o he_o do_v draw_v some_o dregs_n it_o be_v indeed_o a_o marvel_n that_o he_o be_v not_o more_o corrupt_v and_o infect_v than_o he_o be_v there_o remain_v only_a hierome_n who_o in_o the_o end_n of_o his_o epitaph_n or_o funeral_n oration_n concern_v paula_n address_v his_o speech_n unto_o she_o bid_v her_o farewell_n and_o help_v he_o with_o her_o fine_a prayer_n but_o 1._o i_o have_v show_v before_o that_o bellarmine_n do_v overthrow_v the_o foundation_n that_o hierome_n build_v upon_o viz._n that_o the_o saint_n depart_v be_v every_o where_o and_o so_o can_v hear_v and_o understand_v whatsoever_o any_o stand_n in_o need_n of_o and_o desire_v of_o they_o which_o bellarmine_n confess_v to_o be_v incompetible_a to_o any_o mere_a creature_n as_o indeed_o it_o be_v this_o be_v a_o property_n that_o belong_v unto_o god_n only_o 2._o when_o the_o father_n sometime_o speak_v in_o that_o manner_n to_o the_o saint_n decease_v their_o speech_n proceed_v rather_o from_o affection_n then_o from_o judgement_n and_o be_v rhetorical_a rather_o then_o theological_a initium_fw-la expression_n as_o appear_v by_o that_o of_o gregory_n nazianzen_n who_o in_o his_o first_o oration_n against_o julian_n speak_v thus_o unto_o constantine_n who_o be_v then_o dead_a and_o hear_v o_o thou_o soul_n of_o the_o great_a constantine_n if_o thou_o have_v any_o sense_n or_o understanding_n of_o these_o thing_n where_o the_o greek_a scholiast_n note_n that_o ibid._n nazianzen_n do_v imitate_v isocrates_n a_o heathen_a orator_n this_o be_v speak_v say_v he_o in_o imitation_n of_o isocrates_n as_o if_o he_o shall_v say_v if_o thou_o have_v any_o power_n to_o hear_v the_o thing_n that_o be_v here_o speak_v and_o observe_v how_o nazianzen_n who_o hierome_n call_v his_o master_n speak_v doubtful_o make_v it_o a_o question_n whether_o the_o saint_n depart_v do_v understand_v ecclestast_n thing_n here_o upon_o earth_n 3._o austin_n who_o live_v in_o the_o same_o time_n with_o hierome_n in_o his_o book_n of_o true_a religion_n 55._o speak_v of_o the_o saint_n debar_v say_v plain_o they_o be_v to_o be_v honour_v for_o imitation_n but_o not_o to_o be_v worship_v for_o religion_n and_o in_o the_o 10._o last_o book_n of_o that_o famous_a work_n entitle_v of_o the_o city_n of_o god_n in_o the_o ten_o chapter_n of_o it_o speak_v of_o the_o martyr_n he_o say_v that_o in_o the_o celebration_n of_o the_o eucharist_n they_o be_v mention_v in_o their_o place_n and_o order_n viz._n to_o praise_n god_n for_o they_o and_o to_o stir_v up_o other_o to_o the_o imitation_n of_o they_o but_o yet_o that_o they_o be_v not_o invocate_v and_o that_o no_o prayer_n be_v put_v up_o unto_o they_o this_o may_v suffice_v to_o show_v how_o far_o in_o this_o point_n they_o of_o the_o roman_a church_n be_v depart_v both_o from_o the_o rule_n of_o god_n word_n and_o also_o from_o the_o judgement_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o ancient_a father_n we_o hold_v say_v the_o marquesse_n confirmation_n necessary_a you_v 69._o not_o we_o have_v scripture_n for_o it_o act_n 8._o 14._o peter_n and_o john_n pray_v for_o they_o that_o they_o may_v receive_v the_o holy_a ghost_n for_o as_o yet_o he_o be_v fall_v upon_o none_o of_o they_o only_o they_o be_v baptize_v in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o lord_n jesus_n then_o lay_v they_o their_o hand_n on_o they_o and_o they_o receive_v the_o holy_a ghost_n where_o we_o see_v the_o holy_a ghost_n be_v give_v in_o confirmation_n which_o be_v not_o give_v in_o baptism_n also_o heb._n 6._o 1._o therefore_o leave_v the_o principle_n of_o the_o doctrine_n of_o christ_n let_v we_o go_v on_o unto_o perfection_n not_o lay_v against_o the_o foundation_n of_o repentance_n from_o dead_a work_n and_o of_o faith_n towards_o god_n of_o baptism_n and_o of_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n the_o father_n affirm_v the_o same_o tertul._n de_fw-fr resur_n s._n pacian_n de_fw-fr bapt._n s._n amb._n the_o sacr_n s._n hierome_n contra_fw-la lucif_n s_o cypr._n l._n 2._o ep._n 1._o speak_v both_o of_o baptism_n and_o confirmation_n say_v then_o they_o may_v be_v sanctify_v and_o be_v the_o son_n of_o god_n if_o they_o be_v bear_v in_o both_o sacrament_n answ_n concern_v confirmation_n the_o romanist_n make_v it_o a_o sacrament_n proper_o so_o call_v of_o the_o same_o nature_n with_o baptism_n and_o the_o lord_n supper_n the_o matter_n of_o this_o sacrament_n they_o make_v 11._o to_o be_v a_o certain_a ointment_n compound_v after_o a_o special_a manner_n and_o consecrate_v by_o a_o bishop_n wherewith_o the_o person_n to_o be_v confirm_v be_v anoint_v in_o the_o forehead_n in_o the_o form_n of_o a_o cross_n the_o form_n of_o the_o sacrament_n they_o make_v to_o consist_v in_o these_o word_n i_o sign_n thou_o with_o the_o sign_n of_o the_o cross_n and_o confirm_v thou_o with_o the_o chrism_n or_o ointment_n of_o salvation_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o father_n and_o of_o the_o son_n and_o of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n the_o effect_n of_o this_o sacrament_n they_o say_v be_v to_o confer_v true_a sanctify_a grace_n and_o that_o more_o abundant_o than_o baptism_n do_v in_o respect_n of_o the_o strengthen_n of_o the_o soul_n against_o the_o assault_n of_o satan_n now_o this_o confirmation_n protestant_n deny_v to_o be_v a_o sacrament_n as_o have_v no_o institution_n nor_o any_o ground_n for_o it_o in_o the_o scripture_n the_o
by_o the_o pope_n as_o know_v it_o to_o be_v true_a which_o their_o own_o law_n deliver_v that_o in_o holiness_n any_o old_a woman_n in_o knowledge_n many_o a_o friar_n may_v out-go_v the_o pope_n but_o in_o power_n and_o authority_n the_o whole_a world_n be_v under_o he_o yet_o at_o this_o day_n they_o do_v so_o general_o cling_v to_o he_o and_o draw_v by_o his_o line_n as_o have_v no_o hope_n either_o of_o stand_v against_o their_o opposite_n but_o only_o by_o he_o or_o of_o unity_n among_o themselves_o but_o only_o in_o he_o that_o touch_v he_o and_o touch_v they_o etc._n etc._n and_o elsewhere_o in_o the_o same_o book_n it_o be_v a_o etc._n wonderful_a thing_n say_v he_o to_o see_v what_o curious_a order_n and_o diligence_n they_o use_v to_o suffer_v nothing_o to_o be_v do_v or_o spring_v up_o among_o themselves_o which_o may_v any_o way_n give_v foot_v to_o the_o religion_n which_o they_o so_o much_o hate_v and_o first_o for_o the_o scripture_n for_o as_o much_o as_o the_o reformation_n seem_v ground_v upon_o they_o etc._n etc._n though_o as_o well_o to_o beat_v back_o the_o irksome_a out-cry_n of_o their_o adversary_n as_o also_o to_o give_v some_o satisfaction_n to_o their_o own_o that_o they_o may_v not_o think_v they_o so_o terrible_o afraid_a of_o the_o bible_n they_o be_v content_a to_o let_v it_o be_v translate_v by_o some_o of_o their_o favourer_n into_o the_o vulgar_a as_o also_o some_o number_n of_o copy_n to_o be_v saleable_a a_o while_n at_o the_o beginning_n yet_o since_o have_v husb_v that_o former_a clamour_n and_o make_v better_a provision_n for_o the_o establish_n of_o their_o kingdom_n they_o have_v call_v all_o vulgar_a bibles_n straight_o in_o again_o yea_o the_o very_a psalm_n of_o david_n which_o their_o famous_a preacher_n b._n panigarola_n translate_v as_o doubt_v else_o the_o unavoidablenesse_n of_o those_o former_a inconvenience_n neither_o yet_o in_o their_o very_a sermon_n though_o they_o preach_v always_o in_o a_o manner_n on_o the_o gospel_n of_o the_o day_n do_v they_o read_v or_o any_o other_o way_n recite_v the_o text_n but_o discourse_n only_o on_o such_o point_n of_o it_o as_o they_o think_v fit_a without_o more_o solemnity_n that_o no_o sound_n of_o scripture_n may_v possess_v the_o people_n although_o the_o use_n in_o france_n be_v otherwise_o for_o that_o matter_n yea_o some_o part_n of_o scripture_n as_o s._n paul_n epistle_n they_o be_v so_o jealous_a of_o and_o think_v so_o dangerous_a that_o by_o report_n of_o divers_a for_o myself_o do_v not_o hear_v it_o some_o of_o their_o jesuit_n of_o late_a in_o italy_n in_o solemn_a sermon_n and_o other_o their_o favourite_n elsewhere_o in_o private_a communication_n commend_v between_o they_o s._n peter_n for_o a_o worthy_a rome_n spirit_n have_v censure_v s._n paul_n for_o a_o hotheaded_a person_n who_o be_v transport_v so_o with_o his_o pang_n of_o zeal_n and_o eagerness_n beyond_o all_o compass_n in_o sundry_a his_o dispute_n that_o there_o be_v no_o great_a reckon_n to_o be_v make_v of_o his_o assertion_n yea_o he_o be_v dangerous_a to_o read_v as_o savour_v of_o heresy_n in_o some_o place_n and_o better_o he_o have_v not_o write_v of_o those_o matter_n at_o all_o agreeable_a to_o which_o i_o have_v hear_v other_o of_o their_o catholic_n deliver_v that_o it_o have_v be_v heretofore_o very_o serious_o consult_v among_o they_o to_o have_v censure_v by_o some_o mean_n and_o reform_v the_o write_n of_o s._n paul_n though_o for_o my_o own_o part_n i_o must_v profess_v i_o can_v hardly_o believe_v this_o as_o be_v a_o attempt_n too_o too_o abominable_a and_o blasphemous_a and_o for_o these_o time_n too_o desperate_a a_o scandal_n but_o howsoever_o he_o of_o all_o other_o be_v least_o behold_v to_o they_o who_o of_o my_o own_o knowledge_n and_o hear_n some_o of_o they_o teach_v in_o the_o pulpit_n not_o to_o have_v be_v secure_a of_o his_o preach_n but_o by_o conference_n with_o st._n peter_n and_o other_o of_o the_o apostle_n nor_o that_o he_o dare_v publish_v his_o epistle_n till_o they_o have_v allow_v they_o and_o as_o in_o the_o foundation_n of_o the_o reformation_n which_o be_v the_o scripture_n so_o much_o more_o in_o the_o edifice_n itself_o the_o doctrine_n and_o opinion_n they_o beat_v away_o all_o sound_n and_o echo_v of_o they_o be_v not_o lawful_a there_o to_o allege_v they_o no_o not_o to_o glance_v at_o they_o not_o to_o argue_v &_o dispute_v of_o they_o no_o not_o to_o refute_v they_o in_o ordinary_a communication_n to_o talk_v of_o matter_n of_o religion_n be_v it_o odious_a and_o suspicious_a but_o to_o enter_v into_o any_o reason_n though_o but_o for_o argument_n sake_n without_o other_o scandal_n be_v prohibit_v and_o dangerous_a yea_o it_o be_v once_o my_o fortune_n to_o be_v half_o threaten_v for_o no_o other_o fault_n then_o for_o debate_v with_o a_o jew_n and_o uphold_v the_o truth_n of_o christianity_n against_o he_o so_o unlawful_a be_v all_o dispute_v of_o religion_n whatsoever_o and_o their_o friar_n even_o in_o france_n in_o their_o endeavour_n to_o convert_v other_o will_v say_v it_o be_v lawful_a to_o persuade_v they_o but_o not_o so_o to_o dispute_v with_o they_o but_o in_o italy_n this_o be_v much_o more_o exact_o observe_v etc._n etc._n but_o the_o most_o strange_a thing_n as_o to_o i_o it_o seem_v of_o all_o other_o be_v that_o those_o principal_a writer_n who_o have_v employ_v themselves_o whole_o in_o refute_v from_o point_n to_o point_v the_o protestant_n doctrine_n and_o argument_n be_v so_o rare_a in_o italy_n as_o by_o ordinary_a enquiry_n i_o believe_v not_o to_o be_v find_v the_o controversy_n of_o italy_n cardinal_n bellarmine_n i_o seek_v for_o in_o venice_n in_o alplace_n neither_o that_o nor_o gregory_n of_o valentia_n nor_o any_o of_o su●●_n quality_n can_v i_o ever_o in_o any_o shop_n of_o italy_n set_v eye_n on_o but_o in_o instead_o of_o they_o a_o infinite_a number_n of_o mere_a invective_n and_o declamation_n which_o make_v i_o entertain_v this_o suspicious_a conjecture_n that_o it_o may_v be_v their_o care_n that_o no_o part_n of_o the_o protestant_n position_n and_o allegation_n shall_v be_v know_v they_o be_v so_o exact_a as_o to_o make_v discurrent_fw-la in_o some_o sort_n even_o those_o very_a book_n which_o be_v constrain_v to_o recite_v they_o that_o they_o may_v refute_v they_o etc._n etc._n by_o these_o and_o other_o passage_n in_o that_o book_n which_o the_o marquesse_n be_v please_v to_o cite_v we_o may_v see_v what_o a_o politic_a indeed_o yet_o withal_o a_o poor_a and_o pitiful_a unity_n that_o be_v which_o be_v among_o they_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n though_o the_o marquesse_n here_o as_o also_o before_o about_o the_o begin_n of_o his_o reply_n do_v so_o boast_v of_o it_o but_o the_o marquesse_n begin_v again_o to_o fall_v upon_o protestant_a etc._n writer_n and_o to_o inveigh_v against_o they_o as_o guilty_a of_o strange_a and_o unheard_a of_o blasphemy_n vileness_n and_o wickedness_n and_o as_o if_o the_o testimony_n which_o he_o allege_v for_o proof_n hereof_o be_v not_o to_o be_v doubt_v of_o he_o say_v that_o they_o be_v the_o testimony_n of_o protestant_n themselves_z and_o not_o of_o any_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n but_o the_o most_o of_o his_o testimony_n be_v those_o of_o luther_n and_o his_o follower_n concern_v zuinglius_fw-la and_o those_o that_o join_v with_o he_o or_o the_o testimony_n of_o these_o concern_v the_o other_o now_o these_o be_v adversary_n one_o to_o the_o other_o as_o the_o romanist_n be_v to_o they_o both_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o one_o against_o the_o other_o be_v to_o be_v account_v no_o more_o valid_a then_o if_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o romanist_n have_v be_v allege_v against_o they_o mr_n breerley_n premonish_v he_o that_o shall_v undertake_v to_o answer_v his_o apology_n to_o forbear_v to_o urge_v the_o testimony_n advertisement_n of_o such_o as_o persist_v profess_a enemy_n to_o the_o roman_a sea_n and_o also_o of_o those_o who_o though_o but_o for_o a_o time_n do_v stand_v in_o some_o opposition_n against_o it_o yet_o himself_o and_o from_o he_o the_o marquesse_n usual_o do_v urge_v the_o testimony_n of_o those_o who_o be_v profess_v adversary_n to_o they_o against_o who_o they_o be_v urge_v but_o wave_v those_o particular_n which_o be_v found_v upon_o such_o testimony_n as_o indeed_o the_o most_o be_v there_o be_v some_o other_o to_o which_o i_o shall_v endeavour_v to_o give_v answer_n 1._o it_o be_v object_v that_o luther_n be_v teach_v by_o the_o devil_n that_o devil_n the_o mass_n be_v naught_o and_o overcome_v with_o the_o devil_n reason_n he_o abolish_v it_o ans_fw-fr it_o be_v true_a luther_n himself_o do_v at_o large_a relate_v how_o etc._n that_o about_o midnight_n when_o he_o awake_v the_o devil_n do_v dispute_v with_o he_o and_o convince_v he_o that_o